The Rest Is Entertainment - Lily Allen vs David Harbour

Episode Date: November 4, 2025

Can David Harbour survive the searing infidelity allegations in Lily Allen's new brilliant pop album? And who will replace Claudia and Tess on Strictly Come Dancing? Richard Osman and Marina Hyde delve into Lily Allen's blistering narrative album about her ex David Harbour's cheating. Can the Stranger Things actor sue? Why did his New York apartment become known as a Pussy Palace? It's the biggest argument sweeping British telly, who is going to replace Claudia Winkleman and Tess Daly on Strictly Come Dancing. Richard uses his decades of TV experience to find the ultimate replacement for the iconic duo. Recommendations: Richard: There's Gonna Be A Show, Jimmy Mulville (Book) Marina: Wildlife Photographer of the Year (Exhibition, Natural History Museum) Join The Rest Is Entertainment Club: Unlock the full experience of the show – with exclusive bonus content, ad-free listening, early access to Q&A episodes, access to our newsletter archive, discounted book prices with our partners at Coles Books, early ticket access to live events, and access to our chat community. Sign up directly at therestisentertainment.com The Rest Is Entertainment is proudly presented by Sky. Sky is home to award-winning shows such as The White Lotus, Gangs of London and The Last of Us. Requires relevant Sky TV and third party subscription(s). Broadband recommended min speed: 30 mbps. 18+. UK, CI, IoM only. To find out more and for full terms and conditions please visit Sky.com For more Goalhanger Podcasts, head to www.goalhanger.com Video Editor: Charlie Rodwell Senior Producer: Joey McCarthy Social Producer: Bex Tyrrell Exec Producer: Neil Fearn Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Conditions apply. Hello, and welcome to this episode of The Resters Entertainment with me, Marina. Hi. And me, Richard. How are you doing? Hello, Richard. How are you doing?

I'm all right. How's your week been? It's been wonderful. It's been good fun, busy, a pack schedule. Yes, a busy week. Halloween weekend, of course. Of course it was Halloween weekend. I don't really go for Halloween.

Okay, well, you're going on next year because I'm having a massive party, so I can assure you you will be going for it next year. All right, Jonathan Ross. So many people on Facebook going to Halloween parties as either Claudia or the traitors. It's like a gift. All you need is a cloak or a fringe. So ridiculously, my school uniform contained a floor-length green cloak. Do you know what?

You surprised me. I only remember it. I don't know why because it was like a cloak If Claire had been chosen That would not have been the first time She would have worn a floor length green cloak Let me tell you What were they thinking?

What were they preparing? I don't know if it's had a red lining It's unclear what we're being prepared for Anyhow Big of Halloween, obviously a big weekend on Strictly And we're going to be talking about Strictly A bit later Talking about the succession

We're also talking about why everybody Everybody is wrong about Strictly I don't think you'll find I'm wrong about it Well, listen, I'll be the judge of that. But first of all, speaking of getting a lot of stuff off your chest, we are going to talk about Lily Allen, her new album, West End Girl, which is a sort of narrative album. I mean, I don't want to say possibly about, I mean, definitely about her breakup from her husband, David, David Harbour,

who's famous in Stranger Things and various Marble projects, but he's most famous. He had not crossed my radar before this week. And it's extraordinary. She had no sort of advanced promotion for this really. It's number one on the UK download chart and I think there's, I looked this morning, there are three singles in the top 20. It's a huge buzz really because it is, I mean, I have to say I really like it. Yeah.

If you like Lily Allen, which I do, you will like this album. Yeah, it's ethereal in lots of ways and yet they're talking about something so raw and, you know, very explicit in lots of ways. I really like the storytelling in it actually. to me it's interesting how it's been discussed it's it has almost been experienced as this full kind of social media feeding frenzy in the way that things are in our age but more than I'm more even than a sort of Taylor Swift thing anything but I suppose because in many ways what she has at her biggest USP as an artist Lily Allen always has been is this kind

of terrifying incredible candor yes a terrifying lack of filter which is a very powerful weapon Yes, and actually it comes across, because a lot of people, there are certain people you think, are you, you're exposing yourself slightly in Taylor Swiss, various sort of confessionals, things like that, but they do nonetheless always feel incredibly controlled and marketable. Lily Allen has always had a thing where she has, I suppose she was sort of forged in the fire of all the gossip in the naughty, particularly in the naughty's women were, it was best if you were a mess and you could be kind of. Here's the interesting thing about it. I was looking back to when she had her first number one singles, which is, you know, it's 20 years ago now. And in the charts at that time, in the same week that she was number one, in the charts, you had Razorite, the Cooke's, the Prodigy, Kings of Leon.

This was who were in the charts. This week, every single song that is above her, she's number 12, I think. Every single song that's above her is by a woman. Every single one of them. A female soloist, yeah. Apart from Dave, we'll actually get to Dave in a bit. That generation sort of grew up venerating Lily Allen. Funnily enough, Billy Elish pays homage to her.

Olivia Rodrigo bought her out at Glastonbury. He loves her pink pantheress. There's something about what she was doing when she was doing it that really spoke to the next generation along. And so she is now absolutely a role model to a new generation of female artists. And this generation of female artists are incredibly powerful, have sold an awful lot of records. In a way, it wasn't quite possible to do in Lily Allen's time.

So, as you say, if you present yourself as a mess in some way, which is how, you know, she was sort of seen in the press back then, that's now a career. That's now you're allowed to talk about what it is to be a woman. You're allowed to talk about what it is to have ended a relationship in a very, very candid way. She sort of brought that in a funny final way. Even by those standards, though, I would say this is... Oh, it's great. I mean, it's... It's great unless you're David Harver.

It's almost weird when you see... I was reading an Alexis Petridis, who I absolutely love in The Guardian. and I love his music criticism. And I was reading a thing and thinking, gosh, it's almost odd to read this album addressed as music because for the past, you know, 10 days or whatever, it's just been a, as I say, a huge kind of social media event that rewards those kind of things

that we've talked about before in this age. It rewards a kind of extraordinary kind of. It's set people on detective work to try and find previous Instagram posts that they can hook in. Since it tells such a specific story, of the kind of decline of a relationship, that they can kind of tag things into that. There's less detective work needed on this one. No, I mean, it's...

She literally just names and addresses and, you know, reads out tweets verbatim. And you're like, oh, okay, is even, you know, any detective in the world, there we go, I think we've got him, Sarge. Well, yeah, I was thinking about sort of all the great breakup albums and you're thinking of, I don't know, like Joni Mitchell Blue or Blood on the Tracks or Jagged Little Pill or Adel or Adel. 21 or whatever and I mean Joni Mitchell when she wrote Blue said I actually stopped giving interviews for quite a long time because she said people wanted it talk about the music and the gossip

and I thought the music was important and the gossip wasn't important at all and she didn't even write a song called Pussy Palace yeah Lily Allen's never going to it's not going to stop giving interviews because she's comes from a complete it's a completely different era now I mean she's obviously she was a digital native

she started on my space all of those can I just say you know sometimes times when time seems like a weird concept. Like, you know, like some people's children grow up much more than other people's children. There'll be some people and you'll see them when their kid is two and then the next time you see them their kid is 17. And there'll be other people and their kid was two and then at the same time and they're like four. Yeah. Lily Allen started on MySpace, but she's only 40.

I know. How is that possible? I feel like the mass of that doesn't work. It's like she fought in the First World War and she's still only 36. I know. I mean, but it's all of those things. And yet, as she also says on the album, you know, she's a kind of 40-year-old divorced mother of teenagers. Yeah, I think if you've ever been in a relationship with Taylor Swift, I don't know if any of our listeners have.

You know at some point you will break up and there will be an allusion to you on an album and blah, blah, blah. If you break up with Lily Allen, you know it's not even going to be an illusion to you. You know it's going to be absolutely full on and not for any reason other than that's what her artist. That's what her US. And that's what she does. Exactly. there was something about the age where people want and demand that sort of rawness much more which is why I think as Taylor Swift gets more, you know, has found her supposed, you know,

I don't say supposed happy ending, I wish it is a happy ending. But she's lent in to the idea of conflict with maybe artists, other artists with whoever it is. Because actually this is an age that wants there to be beef, pain, conflict. And of course there always has in like breakup albums. But this is, I think that... Lillianna would have made this album at any point in the cultural arc. Yeah. At any point, so she's not following a trend.

No, no, no. The reason it's so big is because that's where we are culturally. Yeah. That is not why she made it. I don't think she just thought, oh, I really want to talk about all of this. I wish there was some really amazing research on this, because this is my gut. That is in the ascendancy as a subject, broken love is in an ascendancy as a subject more than love itself. And there have obviously been times where just big love songs.

are the biggest kind of trend. I think in pop music, I think in terms of subjects being in an ascendancy, pain and conflict. And it doesn't have to be conflict in a relationship. It could be conflict with, you know, your peer group, other artists. You look at what Taylor Swift does all the time

where she's found her handsome prints, but nonetheless, she's still able to mine a particular seam of kind of friction in other ways. And I do think that conflict, and surely, as you know, I believe that social media is driving so many of these things, Social media has driven that up the charts, as it were, in this sentence, is a subject for love songs. It's that kind of a song.

Take us through some of the specifics that she says on this album. By the way, it's a very, very, very, very listenable album. Most people will never listen to lyrics in their life and they don't have to. So absolutely you can just listen to this album as it is. But there are lots of very specific lyrics in this. Can you give us some of the highlights? Okay, yes. So, I mean, it starts with West End girl, and it's quite,

Lily Allen's had a, you know, she had a, what seemed like a happy ending before, where she, yeah, where she got married and she moved to the country, and she had her children, and then that relationship broke apart, and she lost a house, or she needed to pay a big tax bill. Anyway, then she meets David Harborough, and she moved to New York, and it's all perfect, and they buy a brownstone that's been featured in Architectural Digest, and she is offered a part in a play in London, All of that is dealt with in about the first two verses of the first song.

She's offered a part in a play, which was that 2.2 or whatever it is, a ghost story, almost like national service for young actors, like everyone's had to be in at some point. And she did one, and she did the Pillerman, I think, and she got an Olivier Award nomination. Anyway, but all of that has happened by verse three in the first song. And after that, it is a dissent where she discovers his, I think he wants an open relationship, where she doesn't really want. Even in the first song, you hear her side of an imagined phone conversation, but one that happened where, yes, he's saying,

I would like to have an open relationship, which I don't think he had raised before she'd gone to London. No, I mean, it's not a great moment. I mean, short of actually, Shiv's saying it on her wedding night in succession. I mean, he picked his moment, if that's how it happened. I mean, it's textbook Love Bomber, which is he's finally got her, and he's like, no, I still want to keep hold of you because, you know, It feels like you're a trophy.

But at the same time, I realize now I'm not supposed to have sex with other people. And I would, when I think about it, I would actually really like to. So can we just work out a way where I can do both of those things? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So we then move into the having your cake and eating it phase of the relationship from his side. And, but it's a narrative.

You know, it's a really easily told story. And you can fully understand it as it goes through the songs. And she finds that he's forming attachments with other people. There's a Madeline that we don't know who she. she is. Although we do. Or though we do, because she's now been uncovered and has actually just admitted that it's her.

Yeah. I mean, she was really not someone involved in the world of celebrity because she's, I think she works in wardrobe or something, but she should have said, it's not me, but said, yeah, it is me. And I just, okay, she obviously doesn't have any PR advice. There's a point where she's obviously chucking him out and she goes to this apartment in the West Village and she finds, it's amazing you can make a song out of this. There's a Dwayne Reed bag tied full of butt plubbs and.

lube and hundreds of Trojans, you're so fucking broken. Yeah. Dwayne Reed is their version of boots. Yeah. It's a boots bag. Yeah. I mean, yeah, it's celebrities are just like us in many ways. And anyway, so she finds out all about the double life.

And that's in Pussy Palace. Yes, that's in Pussy Palace, which in my view is the most unbelievably remorselessly catchy. Yeah, a great name for it also for a cat cafe. Yeah. Yeah, let's reclaim it, Richard. Let's reclaim anyhow. I mean, David Harbour, that be ahead of a move from him, saying I'm setting up a series of cafes.

Because of the way the entertainment calendar has fallen, Richard, he is required to be out there on the Stranger Things press tour. Oh, is he? It's a final series of Stranger Things. It's beginning later this month. It is obviously an enormous show on Netflix. But I've seen people say, oh, he can't be involved in the press tour now. I mean, I wouldn't go that far because to some extent, one of my experience of press tours is,

There's always going to be, you know, it's sort of like, hi, David, I'm from the Madrid Gazette, when it's coming to Madrid. But there is always one. So they'll be like, hi, David, I'm from the London scuffler. We've all heard the argument that the West Village apartment was a pussy palace. Would you like to make the case that it was, in fact, only ever a dodo? And they could, you know, he is going to, it's got quite difficult. And you've got to imagine the rest of them all sitting in a long line at a press call along the stage.

Millie Bobby Brown just wants to talk about her teen beauty line. The Duffa Brothers just want you to think that they're going to make amazing movies for Paramount like the Rousseau Brothers do on Netflix. And everyone's just wanting to, you know, leave this great show on high and move on to their next projects. It is tricky. If there's any invites to, like, you know, they do like press events and that were cast there afterwards. That's one if that came into your inbox here, would you like to go to a cast and crew screening of stranger things? You go, yeah, and I might just stay for the queue. Yeah, normally, not in a million years, but yes, please, on this occasion.

It's difficult to know what he can do here. One of his friends is quoted as saying that, because obviously he knew she was bringing out an album and this out of the other. He said, David was certainly bracing for a catty album. But now he's furious that essentially being accused of being this skirt chasing monster. I mean, you chase skirt. There's a monster within. And the world's worst husband. And again, we're not, no one saying he's the world's worst husband.

husband. Yeah. But no one is saying he's the world's best husband either. No. No. That's the issue there for David. This is very much a middling review on his husbandry, as it was. Exactly. This is a three at best. Yeah. You behaved awfully. Yeah. According to this account of the relationship, as I say, and you know, it's really, I know that a lot of our listeners have actually written in about this particular thing this week. Bounty is this one of the biggest ever, ever, arrest his own entertainment inbox subjects. And people have said, you know, could you have had an NDA to stop this?

And it's really interesting because I, sorry, I ended up thinking about this a lot because our producer told us that people were interested in this particular angle on it. You can have any legal document, and as long as the parties involved will sign it, 90% and 99% of the time, that agreement will hold until you get, you know,

another legal document to free you from it. Yeah. So who in entertainment does have these things? We know that someone like Tom Cruise really, I want to say religiously, guards his private life. As a result, you know, he's had two very high profile, he's been married three times, but he's had two very high profile divorces. One from Nicole Kidman, where you never hear a single word ever about him. You never understand why her children, shared children, are estranged from her. Nothing is ever said.

Then Katie Holmes, where their shared child is estranged from him, you never understand. hear a single word at all. There was extensive reports saying that she was not allowed to be shown in another relationship, but she had a long relationship with Jamie Fox that they were never pictured together at all. And so there are people out there who can kind of bring in these. But I'm thinking, okay, both of those women were actresses. Acting is a different art. You may sublimate your pain and your, your experiences into other roles. But Nicole Kibman has never played Nicole Kibman and Katie Holmes has never played Katie Holmes With a poet maybe

Or a singer-songwriter It's almost restraint of trade To say, you can't talk about your feelings Or comedian Yeah You can't It's very, very difficult And you know, I was thinking

I mean I realise that like Sylvia Plath And Ted Hughes weren't alive in the era of NDAs But like can she not talk about what's happening to her? Can she not write poems about her experience You know which there's a real bloodline Between lots of those sort of things and an album like this. And I think it's really different in the case of singers and songwriters to say, you know,

maybe don't talk about me in an interview, but this is very interesting because it's so explicitly about, in all senses the word explicit, about this person. But it also has a universality to it. Which is why people are loving it. Yeah. Yeah, because it chimes with lots of things that other people are experiencing. You might say, don't slag me off in interviews and maybe you could get that. But I think it's very difficult to say to a singer.

songwriter or a poet or someone like that. Work is talking about their own lives and emotions. You can't ever say anything. You mentioned their video on Architectural Digest, where they were taking Architectural Digest through their home. An Architectural Digress at the time, as I thought, oh, this is a nice bit of business for us. So an interesting house, two people who people have heard of. This would do some nice numbers. So we'll just go around and film it. It is now one of the most viewed things on YouTube. I mean, it's gone absolute, like tens of millions of views for this thing and it's really worth watching literally the first thing he does like architectural digest comes to the door and he does like a bit like a skit where he goes

oh my god what are you doing here i told you i'm married now you can't be here and you're like oh god i mean talk about hiding in plain sight and lillianne in the background kind of going he's not the greatest wit in the world there's a number of jokes he attempts in this architectural digest he's an actor who says other people's lines yeah exactly and has come to believe that he has that. There's a special source. Yes, exactly. Listen, it's really worth watching, if only for the house.

Well, can I say what's also worth watching is regrettably he did an earlier video where he showed them around an apartment. I think, I think, you know, I've, or the dojo. Could have just been a dojo, Richard. Yes, in the, in the lyrics. In the lyrics, she says, I thought it was a dojo. I didn't know it was a pussy palace. I didn't know it was a pussy palace.

I mean, it's unbelievably catchy. I just have to say that, yeah, that particular one is, and this is a complete sidebar, but we have discussed this before. Certainly we've discussed this, you know, when we're having a drink together. Celebrities, sometimes it's great to pay for all your own stuff because then the interior designers you do certain things so you don't say you can have these things for free if you do an architectural digest video. I'm not saying that either of them did this, and I'm not saying that David Harbour did this with the first apartment, but you don't have to have cameras into your own house.

I was naively thinking, why are they doing this? Oh, you know why they are because... You get discounts on all these things, or I will do an architectural digest feature for you. And it happens all the time, and it's happened forever since, you know, rich Manhattan socialites wanted to get their houses because it was a, that was a sort of real bonfire of the vanities badge of honor. You know, all the wives in bonfires of the vanities want to have their houses and their apartments in Architectural Digest. it's all grist to the promotional mill for this album which as you know

as we say has been launched sort of just dropped without fanfare they haven't had some great big campaign that you know it's coming and so and it's organically growing because people are fascinated by it it's really good yeah well that's the thing

it'd be very possible for Lillian and two have released an album that was really good in this year and for it to have slightly disappeared you can you can disappear from the middle of culture and again she doesn't I don't think she's done it cynically I think she made exactly the album she always would have done, but it's one of the great things about it is because of the honesty

of it. It has reminded people of what a great songwriter she is and what a great presence she is in the, in the middle of our culture. Can I say one other thing, though, which is I know everyone says, oh, it's done this, it's done streaming, it's just like the other. It only got to number four. Number four is perfectly good. But I tell you what it's behind is, and I don't think we ever talk about, and this is completely on a completely different subject matter, but the best-selling British rapper of all time, Dave has bought a new album. It is beyond magnificent. I mean, it is

incredible. Listen, it's much less gossipy than the Lily Allen album. Which in rap, it's actually quite hard. Dave is now so famous, by the way. If you type the word Dave into Google, he is what comes up. Imagine that. So the boy who played the harp, it's

absolutely magnificent. And talk about troubled childhood. You know, he was homeless, his two older brothers went to prison. And he writes these incredible songs. he had the song last year with Central C Sprinter, which is the biggest streamed UK rap single of all time. He's the biggest UK rap star of all time. And I think that some of the broadsheets have been talking a lot about the Lily Allen album

and talking less about the fact that we have one of the great artists of the century. But all the tabloes, anyone talks in the same way that they don't discuss gaming or other things. Well, you know, or the same way that, as we say, we talk obsessively about what's going to happen to like Paramount for $8 billion and nothing about Roblox. for 80 billion and it's just it's just one of those subjects that people don't have a proper handle on and oh dear something bad has happened to a woman is a thing that they've got a real muscle memory for that one richard meanwhile yeah we have this incredible this incredible artist i genuinely

think he's he's brilliant and i think you know every album he's released is is incredible i adore the lily aden album as well fantastic all right then shall we go to a break richard yeah shall we This episode is brought to you by Sky and Sky's new original film, Nuremberg, in cinemas Friday the 14th of November. Now, the trials in Nuremberg weren't just a courtroom drama. They're also the story of how Allied forces shaped the reality of international justice for generations to come. At the centre of this story is a battle of the minds between Lieutenant Colonel Douglas Kelly, an American psychiatrist played by Rami Malik, and his most infamous and formidable patient, Hitler's second in command, Herman Guring, portrayed by Russell Crow. And Russell Crowe shows Guring as a calculated performer playing to the gallery at all opportunities,

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Welcome back everybody. Now before we start talking about Strictly, let's talk about the other big BBC behemoth because we're doing our live streaming of the final of celebrity traitors on Thursday night. All being well, that's what we're doing. That will be a live stream. So we'll be emailing the details to all of our members, tweeting out to everyone else as well. But you'll be able to join us live on YouTube on Thursday night.

It will then be available as a podcast as well. But very exciting. What's going on with Strictly? Is it all over? Why have Tess and Claudia left us? Is there a bombshell to come? Is something terrible about to happen? Can it survive?

Someone said to me the other night, shouldn't they just act it? I just read somewhere that they should just as act. It's like, oh yeah, no, no. they should definitely axe the top-rating show on British television, apart from the celebrity traitors. But that was like, this is a very recent development. They should definitely axe at that. Did you read that in like the Times or the Daily Mail or something like that?

Because let me tell you, I'm so sorry to break it to you, but it's just possible that some of those newspapers have an agenda. No, they shouldn't axe the top rating, apart from celebrity traitors, show on British television. It's not acts a show that is still getting over 7 million live viewers on a Saturday and Sunday night. To say nothing of hangover catch up on Sunday morning. Nothing of it. It's still utterly loved by loads of people. It is watched by families. I mean, it's a, listen, it remains a magnificent piece of television.

You get two types of people. You get the, as you say, the journalists who are owned by a media corporation who don't want the BBC to have a big hit. You also get those people who, because they've stopped watching it, go, everyone has stopped watching it. Yeah. You think, oh, do you mean, sorry, do you mean you stop watching it? Oh, yeah.

And actually, I am still watching it now, I think about it. So it is still a very, very, very big hit. It's still in absolutely fine form. This series, the quality of the dancing has been amazing. The judges, I think it's the best judging lineup they've ever had. Me too. It is absolutely going to stick around. It should stick around.

It brings a lot of joy to a lot of people. If it doesn't bring a lot of joy to you, that is perfectly okay. Not all of television has to be for you. Exactly that. But it brings a lot of joy. We can all say, oh, in these a revamp, and the other and the two people

who realise that more than anything well I tell you everyone who realises it all the execs everyone that show's been

on 23 years it goes through little cycles it goes through little revamps very hard to keep a show on air for

that amount of time and to keep it fresh in any way whatsoever you know that is difficult and I think Claudia and Tess

both absolutely understand that it seems ridiculous now but it was so radical the idea that two women would present a show

and the fact that they've stuck that tight They're like sister, you know, they call each other, like, say that she's my sister. And you've never been able to say, they've never been able to be pitted against each other, despite the absolutely Herculean efforts of a million people to pit those two women against each other. You can't. And, I mean, it's a sort of amazing and a lovely story in lots and lots of ways.

I think it's extraordinary. Something I don't like at all, which I have noticed, because everyone can obviously see that Floyd is having this incredible success with both traitors and now celebrity traitors, which is just going to be a driver of viewers. towards the normal civilian version when that returns in January. But people say about Test Daily, she's no-go, it's like, okay, okay, no. You hear so much stuff about, like, oh, who's going to anchor the BBC's live election coverage, or any of the network's live election coverage?

Everyone almost talks like about that, as though, you know, the apogee of broadcasting is doing that. Okay, right, let me tell you what Test Daily has to do. She's marshaled the biggest and most complicated live show by a million miles on British television for how long, okay? She's got to help someone and be really kind to somebody having an absolute meltdown because they've just messed up their samba

after a week of torturous practice. She's got to get them across, she's got to be really kind to them, but almost make it seamless so that she gets the judge's comment decision, get them off, so that a swarm of technicians and people can come and change it

from an Alice in Wonderland setting to the Matrix in like 90 seconds. We're now going live to Jake and Moog's count in North Somerset. Like, do me a favour. It's like, oh, they have to stay up all night. It is. Once every five years they stay up.

her all night, okay? She, try doing that, that marathon every single Saturday for three months, okay? And every single thing that happens on your show has the potential to be a full-blown culture war fought across the BBC. Try doing that. Don't tell me that Tessaly. She's a broadcasting machine. Yes, she also happens to be smoking hot. Life is not fair. But do not tell me that she's no good. I will not hear it. She's brilliant. Absolutely brilliant. People don't understand what it is that she does. It's like that thing where, you know, you watch a football match, and afterwards people really know about football go, oh God, the best player in the pitch was Adam Wharton and you go, I didn't see him do anything.

You think, yeah, you're not supposed to see him do anything. Yeah, Tess has got two people, you've got a dancer and a celebrity, she's got four judges to deal with, she's got a very specific time frame to be able to send them off. She's got someone talking to her ear the entire time. Got a lot of emotions to handle for people.

It is not nursing, but as a television presenter, it is a really difficult job, and almost all television presenters cannot do that job. And she's got 16 or whatever of those to get through. And if you mess up a bit on every single one of them, The entire schedule is thrown out by about an hour. So, like, it's really hard. Listen, we'll get onto who's going to present it in a bit.

But so many of the pairings, you're going to go, sorry, neither of those people could do tests. You really understand that neither of those people could do Tess's job. That there's every single person who's ever sat in a live gallery is looking at those pairings going, I'm sorry, who's doing Tess's job? Who's doing the job that's almost impossible that has to be done absolutely perfectly every single time? But we will get onto the pairings. Why are they leaving? Because you have to leave after a certain time.

You just do. You know, is strictly going to decline? No, is it going to go up harder to say? We'll get on to why it might do. So it's a good time for them to leave. They are both in their 50s. They both have lives. They both have families.

You know, this takes a lot out of your year. And they've done it. And I can tell you, if you do the same show again and again and again, however much you love it, you do get to the point where you think maybe somebody else should take this over. Maybe this would be more fun for somebody else to do. The second you start to think, are there occasions where I'm phoning this in at any point, which perhaps they have felt occasionally, you have to go, do you know what, this is not fair?

This show is I love this show. Viewers love this show. It has to be presented by somebody who absolutely loves it. So the moment you think, I cannot give this everything, are there scandals to come? There are no more scandals in Strictly than in, let's say there's 300 people involved in strictly, you could describe as being, you know, employed by Strictly. There are no more scandals in strictly than there are in any single organisation. Apart from the House of Parliament.

Anyway, apart from the House and Parliament, which has 50 times more, or a lot of the tabloid newspapers. Yeah. Yeah. It is not a dead of sex cases. Full of sex cases. I've worked there. The tabloid newspapers, full of sex cases.

Yeah. Let's see if they report that. I'm absolutely certain that people have taken cocaine, tests and Claudia are also aware that the smallest, you know, in discretion on this show. It just, there's this sort of a, tiresomeness to it. So they've left, I think, because it's the right time to leave. Now, does that mean the end of Strictly? No, and I'll tell you absolutely why. There's an extraordinary story happening over the Atlantic, which is Dancing with the Stars in America. So Dancing with the Stars

is made by the same people, made by BBC Studios. A lot of DNA is very similar. A lot of people have been involved in both over the years, people have gone back and forth. So there's a lot of kind of shared experience. Three years ago, that's very much the kind of bronze medalist of the big American reality shows, which are Dancing with the Stars, the Voice and Survivor. Now, it's very, very, very much number one. And not only is it number one, it is massively number one with under 35 viewers. In the last three years, they've decided to do something with Dancing with the Stars, which they will do on strictly, I guarantee it.

From last series, the number of under 35 is watching has gone up 118%. Over the last two series, it's insane, isn't it? It's gone up 300%. So young people, what? watching terrestrial television, so watching it on ABC, watching network television, yeah, watching it on ABC. And they've done it by understanding that what they have in Strictly could not be more social media friendly, could not be more TikTok friendly. It's dances, it's famous people dancing, and it looks amazing, and it's incredibly clippable. So a couple of years ago, they said, right, we're going to make sure that we absolutely hammer the socials.

absolutely hammer TikTok. They stream it on Disney Plus as well, which has not cannibalized it at all. It's done the exact opposite, which has dragged more people to the network version of it. They've got more people, not necessarily, you know, YouTubers and social reality stars, but lots of people in it have a very, very big social media profile. So, for example, this year, Andy Richter, who was Conan's psychic for years and years, so he's 59 years old. So he's perfect booking for that show.

But he has an enormous TikTok presence as well. well, and that's a big deal. So they decided two or three years ago, this is what we're going to do. We're going to try and grow this through social. Socials will feedback into the show, which will feedback into socials, and it has really, really worked. As a format, Strictly Come Dancing, Dancing with the Stars as it is in America, is perfect for our times. Yeah, for all the politicians having a go at the BBC, I mean, they've done a trade deal with America, that's incredible. Why haven't you? Yeah, come on, guys. Come on, guys. Get it together. So if you're the BBC, you are thinking, well, this is, we have this thing on our hands and we have absolute proof of how this can go in the next few years. And actually, we have a lot of the same personnel who have done that, who can come and do it over here as well. So the job of Strictly now is to how do we get it onto the socials more without alienating that big audience? Because you don't get 7 million viewers by getting rid of your current audience.

So they absolutely have to keep everyone who watches it already and just light tweaks that mean that, Absolutely, you cannot avoid it on social. So all these kids who in a million years would not watch anything on BBC One would go. So that show I keep watching clips of, are you telling me there's a, sorry, there's a two-hour live version of that every Saturday night. But if you come at it from that angle, it is. Okay. So I'm interested in your thoughts on... Who's going to host?

Yeah. You have to think about how that show is hosted, right? Tess and Claudia spend almost no time with each other. No. There's like a two-hour show, maybe like three or four minutes of Claudia and test together. So people keep suggesting pairings. You think it's... They don't need to get on.

It's great. And they spend all their time in each other's dressing rooms, but that's a separate thing. So you need... Someone who can do the test job who just sits there. Like a Libero in football. He just sits there and just stops every attack. And then you need someone like Claudia up in the gods, who is that thing of she's pretending to keep things. loose while knowing she has 45 seconds and she has to come out directly on 45 seconds,

which is a very, very difficult skill. So anytime someone mentions any sort of comedian who sort of is slightly off the wall, you think they could not do this job. They couldn't do it. It's strictly has so much stuff that has to happen in terms of the dances, in terms of the VTs, in terms of the scoring, in terms of the judges. It has to happen and it has to happen in very, very, very tight time frames and you cannot have somebody who is used to just freewheeling. It's fun on lots of shows,

but on this show, it's impossible, which is why Tess and Claudia are so great because Tess just takes care of this and Claudia sort of gives the impression that there is a lightness of touch while actually she's also working like clockwork as well. So they both do a job that the other couldn't do and they both do it brilliantly.

That said, there are an awful lot of presenters who would be very, very good at things. I'll go through some of the ones that I would suggest. And then I'm going to throw... For each row. For each roll. Because it has to be... Yes, I agree.

It has to be a pair. If we say, oh, actually, maybe a pair that already has a relationship, a lot of people have suggested Alan Carr and Amanda Holder. So Alan Carr's star is absolutely on the rise. Amanda Holden, 100% could do that test job, which is very, very difficult. You know, but she could absolutely do it. She really knows her business. She's a great presenter.

She's on a live radio for years and years and years. So, you know, knows how to, you know, work to a countdown. Yeah. Absolutely gets it. Could Adam do the Claudia thing? Would he want to do the Claudia thing? I wonder whether he'd, certainly, I'm not sure he would actually want to do that. I think he will have an unbelievable amount of different offers than he would have had before celebrity traitors when the show finishes.

But I'm not sure that actually she makes it look like, oh, it's the most fun job in the world. And it's like, I'm just saying random funny things that, you know, and she's so witty and blah, blah. But actually, as we say, it's very, very, very. difficult because someone, the people are coming out, someone's saying in their ear, oh, don't forget, Balvinda looks a little bit disappointed. Don't forget we got that story about Julian that he wants to talk about that. And don't forget, we're cutting 10 seconds off this because, you know, we're already over. So all of that is in her head and then she has to make it look simple.

If you're Alan, where... I think it's too constricting for him and I don't think he'd like it. I don't think he would like it. I think he'd do one pilot and he go, oh, no, I need a bit more freedom. You think you cannot, you cannot have freedom here. You just can't do it. I don't think Ryland would mind it. I don't think Ryan would mind it.

Yeah, I don't know. Rynan's an interesting one. No one has ever presented strictly who has been on strictly. There's never been a percentage. So whenever people say someone hasn't been on strictly, doesn't really matter because that's why they haven't been. But it would be quite fun to have two hosts who had been on strictly. And the two people who I think could do these two jobs,

Angela Scanlon, who I absolutely adore and it could do that test job all day long, She absolutely could do it. She's so smart, been on the show, loves the show, viewers absolutely love her. And up in the gods, Chris Ramsey, who's also been on the show, did very well on the show, is funny, but absolutely understands what he's being asked to do at any given time. And his humour is not, Alan's humour of, we open the world out and, you know, we expand everything and see what happens. He knows how to keep stuff tight, like Chris McCaws them when he was on last year, understands how to keep things tight. seems to like human beings has a big social media presence

which we'll get onto because I think that's going to be a huge deal so Angela Scandon and Chris Ramsey would be great Alicia Dixon could do that role as well the test role I think and again she's been on it so her and Chris perhaps could do that the obvious person who could do both of those roles

is Zoe Ball and that's who they would offer it to whether Zoe Ball wants to do that I don't think she would want to do it myself but that's pure speculation Yeah. It feels a lot. Right. You know, Zoe Ball looks like she has found a nice place to be in her life and found a pace that she enjoys, whether this is something. But maybe it is. It's a maybe, yeah. Yeah. The key is going to be they need somebody there who is huge on socials. They absolutely need that. But funny enough, Amanda Holden, it's huge on socials. Angela Scandon, huge on socials. They need someone who is going to live this show all week round. You know, celebrity traitors has been as unbelievable. the coverage they've had on socials

because essentially they've had 20 celebrities that Claudia plus 19 others and on this you need somebody who's going to constantly keep that going and I was just wondering could be 100% wrong two weeks ago bottom of the leaderboard was George Clark and I thought

I wonder what the voting numbers are for George that's my wonder and if they are big and if George Clark who has a very big social media presence is getting an awful lot of votes then he might not be a terrible choice to be one of the presenters

on that show a Zoe and a George and Andrew and a George and Alicia and a George I just wonder if they will throw a curveball like that which is somebody who was a digital native I don't entirely buy that

but I know what you mean something I'm interested in and forgive me if you're getting to this because I do think that they need to keep that part of their audience that feels like the show is a national treasure and they'd like

Somebody who has had this wonderful sort of, you know, mid-stage career glow up and has become an, just became an automatic national treasure is Hannah Wordingham. On Eurovision, what she did in Eurovision, could she do the test role? I think she could. I don't think she'd want to. And I think she can get, you know. Do you not think she wants to? She can get seven figures for a movie now. It's hard for Hannah Wolding to become more of a national treasure.

I agree. I would say. It's very hard for an actor to do this job because that's three months. out of your year. And you know, you could say, oh, yeah, but it's only Saturdays because I thought about her and I just think she can make so much money in the next couple of years. I don't mean that in a bad way at all, by the way. Sometimes, you know, sometimes the light is shining on you. I think that it would almost, as you say, you know, before, it will almost be like a restraint of trade that, uh, I know. She has all of these opportunities. She'd be an amazing look and they

would definitely ask her. I mean, they will 100% be asking, but I didn't put her in any of these list because I think... What about Maya Jarma? Yeah, you know, I'm not sure which of the roles she would do. It's interesting when we talk about all these names and, you know, feel free to email in names about who you would like is there are people who could do it. But the thing you have to remember is there are two very different jobs there and what those jobs are.

There are certain people you cannot suggest. There are certain comedians who just think there's no point suggesting that person. Do you not think Stacey Solomon could do the Claudia because she couldn't do the timing and the difficult? I don't know. I haven't seen her do enough live things. and I don't think she has done enough life. I think she would be pretty good.

Do you know what? It's really hard. I know it is. I mean, it's really, really hard. And I love Stacey Solomon. But, you know, I don't want her taking time out of sort your life out. No. You know, because, you know, this is a very important show for me.

But I think there are, we are blessed, especially with some amazing female presenters at the moment. I think if I was at the BBC right now, I would be incredibly excited. I would think, thank you, Claudia, and Tess, for shepherding this show. so beautifully. Thank you for leaving so classily. Thank you to everyone and dancing with the stars of showing us a direction of travel, which means, you know, we've worked out a way that this show is protected for the next 10 years. And thank you to the infrastructure of British TV that there are so many amazing names there who could really take this show into the next generation. I think it's a very, very exciting time. I think they'll definitely

ask Hannah Waddingham. I think they would definitely ask Zoe. I think they will definitely have a conversation with Ryland. But I do think, you know, in amongst the Alicia Dixon's and Angela Scanlon's and Chris Ramsey's, there are some people out there who could absolutely make this their own. I think they could do a fun thing, having listened to you, talk a lot. I think they could do a fun thing with an age difference where there's a really big age difference. I mean, if you think about part of the reason, things like Only Murders in the building have become very, very successful. Because you've got these two old guys that we all remember for, you know, Steve Martin, Martin Shaw, and obviously their genius isn't brilliant.

And then you put Selena Gomez with them and suddenly like, wow, okay, now you've got a show. And now you've got something that has a pull with younger audiences that wouldn't exist at all had they not done that. There are sometimes when people quit shows where you think, okay, this is a managing decline. This is really not that, which is why a lot of the press stuff has been so wrong about strictly. This is an amazing opportunity. And also it means almost certainly we'll get to see Claudia doing a chat show as well. Yes. Which would be very, very exciting.

No one has confirmed it, but I would be very, very surprised. She's always loved interviewing, and she's fantastic at it, and she's very funny, as we can all see. And if you believe what you read, she would team up with Graham Stewart at So Television, who make Graham Norton and make it absolutely brilliantly. That would be an incredible combination, were that to happen. So, you know, we get Claudia doing two series of traitors a year, fun summer chat show. Yeah, I'd take that. And then two fresh faces doing, strictly, taking it into, you know, the next 10 years. I genuinely think it's an exciting time for strictly and dancing with the stars is the main reason why it's an exciting time.

It's hard to overestimate what an extraordinary thing they've done over there. They've absolutely turned around something that people thought was impossible to turn around, not just their own show, but also people watching network television and absolutely no reason why we can't do the same over here. I'm going to take you through some of the numbers of people online. So TikTok, that's the main thing. Roman Kemp, who I really, really love. He's got half a million TikTok followers, which is not bad. Amanda Holden, I really think it would be great on strictly 1.3 million. But listen, I'm going to go back to him.

2.4 million TikTok followers, George Clark. If he can do it, if they can get him in the studio and just go and just play, he seems very bright. He seems very, very smart. And if they can kind of absolutely pilot, pilot, pilot, somebody like that is coming off, especially if he wins this series, which I don't know if he will, but he's certainly going to stick around.

That would be an amazing hand. Surely Lewis has to win it. It's just ridiculous. His dance on Saturday was that's the best thing I've ever seen on Strictly. It's unbelievable. I mean, I know he's a dancer, but even so. Come on. Yeah, come on.

Okay, recommendations. I'm reading a book that was sent to me by my old boss, Jimmy Melville, who runs a hat trick, And it doesn't, you know, have I gotten used for you and outnumbered and Father Ted and all of those shows? So one of the great kind of TV impresarios. But someone asked you to write just a short book about his love for Everton FC. And he's written this book. It's called There's going to be a show like anyone who loves football.

It's a story about his life, really. And it's a story about his family. And it's really, really beautiful. If you're an Everton fan, you must buy it. If you're a football fan of a certain age, I would really, really recommend it as well. It's just a really funny, smart writer talking about his family, talking about football, just talking about what it means. So it's called there's going to be a show and you will laugh and cry. I would like to recommend the Wildlife Photographer of the Year exhibition at the Natural History Museum,

which I have recommended before because it is every single year. I think it's better than the last year. It's actually beautifully staged and done. The calibre of the entries is just ridiculous. And, you know, I mean, there were two amazing photos right at the very start. And you're like, sorry, is this the under tens category? There's this kid. He has two in the top five.

Wow. It's unbelievable. But the photographs are extraordinary, and they say so much about, you know, us and our place in the world and what we're doing. Anyway, it is always amazingly done. And I cannot recommend it enough if you are in London and you get a chance to go to it over the next few months. That's wildlife photography of the year at the Natural History Museum. And if you're not in London, that amazing Hamza Yassin series on BBC One on Sunday nights is...

Sorry, we can't. But that is a massive hit. He's come from suddenly you've got this person getting a huge, enormous hit on Sunday evenings. It's great. And just, and beautiful. Yes. Okay.

Well, there's lots to say about wildlife documentary, so we'll dedicate a whole lot of stuff to it at some point. Other than that, we will be back with the Q&A on Thursday. We've obviously got, hopefully, a live stream, no, no for definite, a live stream on Thursday after the Traitors final. And we've got a bonus episode about for our members, which you can join at the rest is entertainment.com. It's a series and it's charting the story of MTV, which is an unbelievable story.

Yeah, it's really cool. And it's sort of coming to an end. So, anyway, other than that, we'll see you on Thursday. See you Thursday. This episode was brought to you by our good friends at Sky. The Skyglass TV is a television that insists on dressing for the occasion. and transforming your living room from background noise into a set piece premiere worthy of Sky Atlantic.

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