The Rest Is Entertainment - Matthew Perry & The Dark Hollywood Underbelly

Episode Date: August 19, 2024

Hollywood is a dream for many but a nightmare for others. Once you experience the highs of fame and fortune what comes next? How do you avoid being surrounded by those that don't have your best interests at heart? Matthew Perry's story can tell us a lot about how Hollywood corrupts. Gen-Z royalty, Molly-Mae Hague and Tommy Fury, announced their separation this week. Their relationship, use of social media, and the way they're written about tells us a lot about modern celebrity. Richard has noticed some rather odd headlines from The Daily Telegraph. He asks why they're framing stories in the way they are, who might benefit and he and Marina discuss who might be in pole position to how the Telegraph titles. Recommendations: Marina: A Voyage Around The Queen - Craig Brown (read) Richard: Party Down (Apple TV) Twitter: @‌restisents Instagram: @‌restisentertainment YouTube: @‌therestisentertainment Email: [e-mail] Producers: Neil Fearn + Joey McCarthy Executive Producers: Tony Pastor + Jack Davenport 🌏 Get our exclusive NordVPN deal here ➼ https://nordvpn.com/trie  It’s risk-free with Nord’s 30-day money-back guarantee! ✅ Redeem data in 1GB increments. Save by mixing to lower cost plan and supplementing with rolled data. Downgrades effective following month. Full terms at Sky.com/mobile. Fastest growing 2021 to 2023. Verify at sky.com/mobileclaims. For more information about how you can use Snapchat Family Centre to help your teenagers stay safe online visit https://parents.snapchat.com/en-GB/parental-controls Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Summer is like a cocktail. It has to be mixed just right. Start with a handful of great friends. Now add your favorite music. And then, finally, add Bacardi Rum. And there you have it, the perfect summer mix. Bacardi. Do what moves you. Live passionately. Drink responsibly. Copyright 2024. Bacardi. It's trade dress and the bat divisor.

Trademarks of Bacardi and Company Limited. Rum 40% alcohol by volume. Only Murders in the Building is back for a new season on Disney+. Steve Martin, Martin Short and Selena Gomez return alongside a star-studded guest cast as the trio takes on Hollywood, where a studio is making a film about their podcast. podcast amidst all the glitz and glamour there's a new mystery who tried to kill Charles only murders in the building season 4 streaming august 27th exclusively on disney plus sign up now at disneyplus.com hello and welcome to this episode of the rest is entertainment with me marina hide and me richard osmond hello marina how are you richard yes i'm really really well Hello and welcome to this episode of The Rest Is Entertainment with me, Marina Hyde. And me, Richard Osman. Hello Marina.

How are you Richard? Yes, I'm really, really well. How are you? Very well, thank you. I have to say, because I can't even wait for recommendations on this one, I read your book. I read Richard's new book, listeners, We Solve Murders, which is out on September the 12th. I so love the three main characters. Obviously you do heart very well Richard. But it's so funny. Completely different settings to the Thursday Murder Club. Although there is some good pub quiz stuff in there as well. There's some pub quiz stuff but yeah a bit more globetrotting. Oh I'm so happy you like

it. Thank you so much. I absolutely loved it and I cannot wait to see. I mean that's the trouble with you. You always want the next one straight away but you do write them so quickly that perhaps we'll get it. One a year. I try and do. Oh and it's got a great front cover as well. It's terrific. Can you also update me on the settling in of Lottie the kitten? Oh I saw a headline I think it was a Daily Mail said Richard Osmond welcomes new family member. There's nothing you can say on this podcast that doesn't become a really bad piece of clip. She She is great. Her and Liesel are now in the same room at times. I mean, Lottie is so desperate

to play with Liesel. Liesel is like, I mean, this is absolutely outrageous. So she just sits as high up as she can and occasionally just sort of flicks her paw out to bat Lottie away. So I think it's going to be okay. Yeah. Oh, it's wonderful. From that, what are we going to talk about this week? We are going to talk about my book and my kitten. No, we've done that. We've covered both of those things. We are going to talk about Monnie Mae Haig and Tommy Fury, the first couple of Instagram. And we're going to talk about this split up, but also what their celebrity and the money they've made tells us about where our culture currently is. We are also going to talk in the wake of the

charges brought in the investigation to Matthew Perry, the Friends Act is death, about celebrity entourages and toxic celebrity entourages. And also I think there's a lot of people have noticed that maybe the Daily Telegraph has gone mad recently when you look at some of the headlines. So I just wanted to ask you, has the Daily Telegraph come mad? What's going on there economically? Because I know there's a story. We will talk about that. I don't think it's gone mad. Maybe madness is a great business strategy so we can talk about that too.

This is the 21st century. Yeah, that's the vibe. Talking of vibes, so Molly Mayhague and Tommy Fury. They met on Love Island and they were a sort of golden couple. We don't know the full details of it and we're certainly not going to get particularly into this side of it, but Molly May has abruptly ended the relationship, I think, on receipt of information. And as you say, the first couple of Instagram are no more. Instagram didn't even exist 14 years ago. And to me it's interesting in the way that these platforms themselves, particularly Instagram, have completely insinuated themselves into the fabric of our lives.

Now, Molly May was chosen for Love Island because she had a following on Instagram and I think she started it with something like a hundred thousand followers. Which sounds like a lot. Which sounds like a lot. By the end of just that season of Love Island, she had two million. She said later, oh, I did it as a business move, which, and it's almost like the finding love was, you know, that's a sort of side effect. You think? You think sometimes people weren't going on blind dates to find a wife? Well, as you know, once you get past a million followers, you are a brand. And so much of

their relationships seem to be sort of funneled through this platform. There were always these mini storms, like why hadn't he proposed to her when he did eventually propose to her, it was an event for Instagram because, and I've funny enough, I was recently having to Google events companies and there's a whole bit of the dropdown menu now that is proposals. Yes, this is, these are now events.

And of course they are events and they are chronicled on social media. And there's a sort of sense in a weird way, isn't it? If it hasn't been on social media and then perhaps it hasn't actually occurred. Did it happen if a man proposes to a woman in a forest and it gets no likes? And it gets no likes. If there isn't, it can't be by the caption, she said yes. Did it actually occur?

Or her just pointing at him going, this one. And then she said, when she was recalling their engagement, she said, he tripped me into going to the proposal site, which had all been decked out for the benefit of the platform, by creating a fake brand trip. So that's how he got her to go. Now, you know, people have social media people to handle their weddings now and to run it. And everyone feels that they must speak when a celebrity dies or something. Like everyone, my friend Johnny Friedman once said to me, everyone's now the Archbishop of Canterbury having to release these statements. And first of all, she's probably been sent the pictures that are whatever they may be, or the footage that has precipitated the sundering in the relationship.

Whatever precipitated the sundering. She's probably been sent those father platform. Hashtag precipitating the Sundering. Yeah, you see it all the time. And she then had to say, I'm sorry I've taken an accidental break from posting. People have to now say, we talked about this the other week, don't we? You know, people saying, I'm going on holiday in case anyone wonders why I'm not posting. And all these little conventions have been established.

People saying, oh, look, her parents have unfollowed him. Or a journalist, you know, I met, I spoke to a journalist about this quite recently and they, he said that he showed his journalists as we've discussed before, used to go out and try and speak to people and find the stories that way. Now a huge amount of, you know, 90% of the job is trying to see what happens on social media. And he had paid for the development of a piece of software that enables him to ring stories out of Instagram, either basically by working out who's unfollowing whom,

who's liking what, via these sort of unfollowings and likes and sort of slightly more below the radar aspects of it all. And it's sort of really weird when you're reading the story, you can hardly work out where all their endorsements stop. It kept saying, the story's about, there's supposed supposed betrayal of her they were talking about Tommy Fury saying he was down in Grey Goose vodka and I was thinking it doesn't really matter because the brands are sort of in the life now and so they just become part of

the story. Just to sum up who the two of them are, so people may have heard the names but not know, so Molly Mae Haig as I say went on Love Island had a bit of a following already for fashion, lifestyle-y type stuff. I think she had her first ever paid post on Instagram at the age of 16. Yeah. So I think I read she got paid £25 to post something about a fashion brand. And now she's on five figure sum every time she mentions anything. The second she left Love Island, all mention of Love Island off her bio,

never mentions it, never talks of herself as part of that world. Absolutely. From the second she left, she was Molly May. She's not been the most showy contestant ever in that show. She's not the one with the biggest personality. It's quite peculiar why she's the one that's got all of those followers, but it comes from an authenticity. It comes from what she endorses, what she doesn't endorse. And she's seen as real and she's seen as real she's seen as relatable and that's the key thing in our world is do I believe that this person is wearing these clothes do I believe that this person likes the fake tan that she's endorsing so yeah she's got her own fake tan company now. She's got her own fake tan now.

She's got seven figures to be the brand ambassador for Pretty Little Thing. Pretty Little Thing was her key thing, she became the brand ambassador then the creative director now since she's just had her kids she the brand ambassador for Pretty Little Thing. Pretty Little Thing was her key thing. She became the brand ambassador, then the creative director. Now, since she's just had her kid, she's brand ambassador again. So she's built a huge empire. In the way we were told in the 90s that celebrity women were in charge of their own careers, she really does seem to have been in charge of her own career. And she is from a very lovely middle-class,

Stevenage family. I think both her parents were police officers. So she's got a real solidity behind her as well. Tommy Fury is from the Fury family of boxers. He's Tyson Fury's brother. Tyson Fury, one of the greatest fighters of all time. Tommy Fury, I'm going to say not one of the greatest fighters of all time, but certainly makes an absolute fortune.

His first four fights, he fought against people who'd had 12 wins in 181 fights. Now he makes a million quid of time for fighting KSI and Jake Paul, who are not boxers. So they both have made an awful lot of money and they've grafted to make an awful lot of money. They form together and of course they become bigger than some of their parts. And they became sort of, I think slightly iconic to people because people believed in that relationship and people liked the fact that they were so different but they were so in love and that they had that genuine connection. So I think for a generation, which is very much not our generation or even the generation below us, it's like a proper good

old-fashioned bombshell. It's Charles and Di, but for people who didn't inherit their wealth. Yeah. And I think that one of the things that's interesting that you're talking about, you know, the brands work together and there's a sort of halo effect of both of them being together and it's worth more than the sum of their parts. In the old days when celebrity relationships would break up, you would hear from, I don't know, agonians or relationship therapists, and I think what's happened here is you now hear from brand experts, a whole new strata of our society

who will talk to you about, you know, who gets custody really of the likes. And you know what I mean? And it's interesting. One of the interesting things I think about what she particularly has done is, as you say say she didn't have any mention of Love Island On her bio as soon as she was out She's also not gone anywhere near television really no a couple of cameos on the on the Furies reality show But when you think of how many things they could have done they've absolutely kept away from those platforms Everything she's done has been by the platforms which she controls her following on YouTube and on it and particularly on Instagram Yeah, and as you say, you know, she is very authentic and people like that and she

doesn't try and hide her struggles. So you sort of sense that this will become knit into woven into the story of the brand and maybe she'll probably do a book now and she'll probably do. They, I think they did have an Amazon prime show. They were in talks with Amazon prime yet again, one of these platforms. I thought you were going to say they had an Amazon Prime account. I was like, yeah, I've got an Amazon Prime account, mate. That doesn't make them special. They're celebrities. They're just like us.

So I think that they were in talks with Amazon Prime, who yet again would be trying to get this kind of weird audience they don't fully understand into their platform. And they were going to do a reality show, which I'm pretty sure won't be happening now. But one of the things that's interesting about her and the reason that she will have this sort of longevity is that she is of interest to both the sort of women's magazine market and the tabloids. And so if you can sort of straddle those worlds and you think people would dress her up for sort of some sophisticated photo shoot,

but also all the dramas and all the stories of the life up, Christ for the tabloid mill as well. So she straddles it in quite an odd way and this is why people are willing to pay so much money to have her push their stuff. And here's the fascinating thing about people willing to pay out all of that money is when we talk about what's happened to television, what's happened to magazines, what's happened to local press, all that stuff, this is what's happened because advertisers are giving her an awful lot of money and giving Tommy Fury an awful lot of money. This is not new money they found from somewhere. This is the money they used to spend in magazines and on television. And now they literally

go directly to the source, give that money to the person, works for that person. And so that is money that has absolutely left the ecosystem of entertainment and gone straight into the pockets of, by the way, someone who's an incredibly smart businesswoman and has done amazing things, so absolutely fair play to her. But that's why if you're running a lifestyle magazine, life is harder because why am I taking out a one-page big glossy ad in your lifestyle magazine when I can give somebody who was on Love Island last year the same amount of money and actually get more of an impact. I find it so creepy the way that something that didn't exist 14 years ago has just

inveigled its way into every aspect, every rite of passage, every everything. It hasn't happened if it hasn't happened on that platform. It's fascinating that you know lots of people listening, maybe Molly Mayhague and Tommy Fury are not on their radar. I know absolutely for lots of people they will be definitively on their radar but it's fascinating how siloed culture becomes that you know they've made tens of millions together. He didn't make a lot out of the actual boxing, he made a lot out of the pretend boxing with KSI and Jake Paul. If I say pretend boxing, maybe Jake Paul will call me out. You know

what? One night in Vegas with Jake Paul, just, you know... Hit me for a hundred million, I'll do it. Yeah, I'm six foot seven, mate. I could, I could take him, no. He's a, I think he'd probably be, I think this is an exclusive for the Daily Express. I think Jake Paul would beat me in a fight. I think he would, but you know, a couple of million, I'd be happy to do that. Yeah.

What was my, what was it? What were we talking about? The money they've had. You know, you can build those enormous empires and still be invisible to 80% of the British public and it's that age old thing of our culture is driven by advertising and our culture is driven by who will buy things and how do brands reach those people. And so brands are very, very happy to spend every single penny they have to reach 10, 15, 20% of the British public and the other 80% can be absolutely

unaware of what's going on. And I feel like that's what's happened with Molly, May and Tommy, because genuinely to quite a substantial amount of people, they are huge and this is a huge story. Yeah, but also the brands, you can see how worth it is. As I say, they're now organically mentioned in all the news stories, sweeping Grey Goose Vodka, driving in his Mercedes G-Rang, all of these stories. Now we're mentioning Grey Goose Vodka. Yeah, this is not sponsored content. And they've got so many of these little labels

and hits in them, these stories. And it's almost because we're so used to reading that stuff online that journalists don't think twice, but the way they're typing out, they've read so much of this, I mean, I wanna say nonsense, because it is nonsense to me, but they've read so much of this nonsense, but you just type your way through all the labels and all the bits and but,

and I guess it takes out the word count, and suddenly you've realized you've just, I mean, how much re-advertising have they done? So Love Island, fascinating, so I was saying, Molly may really distance herself from it, but absolutely was the making of it She has said and I am minded to believe it that she would have got to where she's going without Love Island She was already on such a steep upward curve anyway, but I don't think it was unhelpful if I was a young

Entrepreneur with a few followers. I would 100% go on Love Island I don't think people care so much about Love Island anymore, actually. I think there must be other routes. I think that has, and I don't, I think it's less the, because again, once anything's hung around for long enough, it becomes slightly enough and cliche to do it in the way that even Big Brother did in its sort of first run. And I think that there are other ways through, but you can really see how they're so far beyond it these two now. Yeah.

That they're just sort of rolling brand story. Exactly. And fascinating for anyone listening who doesn't watch Love Island, so didn't see them on Love Island, doesn't follow either of them on Instagram or read the mail online. So they didn't win that Love Island by the way, we should say. Yeah. They were, you know, they were not Like One Direction.

Yeah. Not winning X Factor. So often they were not... Like One Direction. Yeah. Not winning X Factor. Often it's the non-winners who do well. But anyone who has missed every single opportunity to catch up on the Molly Mae Hague and Tommy Fury story, rest assured it's been out there. Rest assured it's been attracting a huge amount of money. And rest assured that money has come from what we think of as traditional media. And that is just going to continue.

Read any of the stories about it and see how many brands are just name-checked for free by the way. The journalist who's writing that story is not getting paid anything. And then imagine running a legacy media company who absolutely rely on advertising for their income. If I'm Grey Goose, why would I advertise on MailOnline? You've mentioned it 40 times today already. I don't need to pay. If Grey Goose are listening, we've mentioned them now. Yeah. We should have got in touch beforehand.

We always do it the wrong way around. Yeah, we're such idiots. We always fail, we always give our best ideas. And that is why you are not Molly Mae Hagan, I am not Tommy Fury. That is one of so many reasons. Yeah, there are a number of reasons, aren't there? But we wish them both all the best,

especially the little baby Bambi. So is the baby called Bambi Fury? Yeah. Wow. If you, by the way, Tyson Fury, I always thought if you were to write a book and said, I'm going to have a boxer in this book, I'm going to call him Tyson Fury. You're like, come on, you've got that name you have to change. Now one or the other. Yeah, that's no good. It's like Steven Spielberg's press officer is called Terry Press. And you're like, come on. Sorry, can we quickly talk about Mr. Spielberg? Because I believe I've seen on one of the platforms we've just mentioned that you have met Mr. Spielberg. I think it described what we were wearing as well. Yeah. It's fascinating when you have a picture of Steven Spielberg and you don't talk about Raiders of the Last Ark,

but you talk about his baseball cap. It was amazing. Firstly, he just had that incredible presence. You do this certain people you meet where you go, oh my God, you're Steven Spielberg. And it was so lovely seeing the, even the other actors were so excited to be around him. I won't say what anyone said, but Sir Enkinsley was talking to him. He was talking to him about Schindler's List and their experience in such a beautiful way. And he clearly loved Steven Spielberg and it was so gorgeous. And then Paul Freeman who's in the movie, who was in Raiders of the Lost Ark, they were talking about that. Because Spielberg, he could not have been nicer. All the extras, it was quite a big scene that day, so a lot of supporting artists out there. People spotted

me and then suddenly there's Spiel Spielberg who weirdly was hidden behind me Spielberg comes out and everyone everyone. Oh my god was so I mean everyone all the actors Everyone was so excited to see him and his relationship with Chris Columbus is so lovely. They adore each other He came in by helicopter of course And then we looked up afterwards where he must have helicoptered in from and he'd helicoptered in from A private yacht in the south of France with Bono and Bruce Springsteen. Well three of them on the holiday together? Yeah, with their partners.

God, why can't ITV film that? I mean that's… I know, yeah, that's a… Yeah, come on. No, it was honestly, it was a dream and he was delightful and it's a beautiful sunny day. He was everything that you would want him to be. And I was able to say to him, because listen, everyone said everything to that you would want him to be. And I was able to

say to him, because listen, everyone said everything to Spielberg that he needs to say, but I was able to say right at the end, I said thank you for everything you do and the joy that you've brought the world. And I left it at that. I thought I never need to say another word because I just said thank you. If you think about how he has entertained us, the joy he's brought, the stories he's told us, the tears we've shared because of him. It's nice to be able to stand there, shake his hand and say thank you. So that was nice. Oh, well on that I think we can only go to a break.

Yes, I hope this is Grey Goose. The football season is back. Join Micah, Alan and me on the rest is football for top analysis, outrageous gossip and the inside track on everything going on in the Premier League. I'm going to say if Man City get any injuries... Oh Jesus Christ, come on! We haven't even got to Man City yet, just what Arsenal are going to do and if they get that striker in I think they'll win the league. Hold on, you've just done exactly the same as what I've done!

You've just said about if Man City get a lot of injuries, they're an arsehole. What the f*** is that got to do with it? I will, of course, be on match of the day. You're on, Alan, aren't you? I am. And Mike is not. Mike is because you're doing Sunday, aren't you? Yeah, Super Sunday. What happened? I thought you were on with us.

I can't work Saturday, Sunday. What? Two days working? I've been knackered. It's either or. I can't do both days. What am I listening to here? I can't do Saturday and Sunday. Sitting in a room with you two idiots for 12 hours doing matching.

Give your head a wobble, will you you cold work Saturdays and Sundays. No wonder his career petered out. The rest is football. Listen on Spotify, Apple or wherever you get your podcasts or watches on YouTube. Welcome back everybody. Now, the Daily Telegraph Marina, as I said at the beginning, there seemed to be a thing sort of around the election. There were all sorts of headlines in the Telegraph. Can I read you a couple? Please do.

I think some were Te would telegraph some of Sunday telegraph but was it an election or an apocalypse yes what exactly I mean Armageddon is upon us and Britain will never be the same again was one of their headlines labor will bankrupt every generation the UK is about to enter a nightmare much darker than anyone yet realizes although how can you write that headline if you haven't realized? Anyone apart from me has yet realized. Rachel Reeves has just admitted the grotesque truth about her plans for Britain. Labour's real agenda for Britain is more terrible than anyone imagined. And I love the, just before the election, there are just 1000 hours to save

Britain. Now this feels, listen, Daily Telegraph of course is a right-leaning newspaper and can write the news it wants to write in the way it does, knows its readers absolutely but there's something about this that doesn't make it feel like this is a serious daily newspaper. Is there something behind that? Well I think that's very charitable of you because I've got to say that I think all papers are guilty of writing absolute nutso headlines. I mean maybe like there's a few, you don't see them so many not-so ones in the FT or whatever, but in general like who among us has not read in one's own publication something where you think wow that's

crazy but it draws readers in and clearly I mean it's unclear how many hours we have left to save the West slash Britain slash whatever it's supposed to come across as quite muscular and what have you. But to me, it always sounds kind of weak because it sounds so mad and deranged. Having said that, as I say, no paper is immune from these and as audiences age out and people

are constantly searching, as you know, the news industry was unfortunately run by journalists, which means that it's been run very badly for a very long time. And what happened with the Telegraph actually, it's quite interesting. The Telegraph was bought, or its debts were taken, massive debts were taken on by a company called Redbird IMI, which is the sort of investment firm for arm of the UAE government really. Oh really? Yes. So it's owned by? Well it was going to be but the Tories suddenly brought in legislation saying that foreign state powers can't own our

valuable newspapers and current affairs periodicals etc because the Telegraph group we should say comprises the Daily Telegraph, the Sunday Telegraph, obviously the websites which has subscription and the Spectator. The sale I think people hope it will be done at some point next month in September, but there are all sorts of people who are in for The Telegraph. You will have to decide whether you will see more or less of those types of headlines depending on who gets it. So you've got people like News Corp, the Murdoch family might like something like The Spectator. Paul Marshall, I think...

So The Spectator is a magazine, but a sort of culture, politics... It's a very old, centuries old, you know, yes, and it's got culture, it's got politics, it's got all sorts of things, but it's a sort of prize and it's a prestige asset. And they've also expanded, they've got an online US web organisation, which we'll talk more about in a minute in general about the US. But Paul Marshall, the guy, a hedge fund guy who backs GB News and unheard the website, very much wants the Spectator. And maybe he could get that, maybe he could hive off that bit and get it for, I don't know, 100 million, who knows what it will actually cost. There are some other mad bids out there. There's Nadeem Zaharwi, our former chancellor and many other jobs, who is thinking of,

he's trying to get foreign investment together. And then have Boris Johnson, someone you may remember from newspapers like the Daily Telegraph and countries like ours, to be the global editor in chief. Oh really? Yeah. But he doesn't want it. He doesn't really want to work, Boris, does he?

No. But I suppose a job like that, an editorin-chief you don't have to do anything. Editor-at-large. Editor-at-large, okay. Every time I see that I think you know I actually know some editors at large who will file constantly and are brilliant But in general I just think oh yeah, you're just out there on the masthead. By the way, I'm trying to think if it would be the best thing ever or the worst thing ever to have Boris Johnson in Celebrity Traitors.

Oh God, it would be, just book him. I mean. Book him, but don't, whatever you do don't make him a traitor. The trouble is he's ruined the game. He's so chaotic that he wouldn't, he deliberately pretended not to understand the rules of the game which is life long practice. It would be the first time he's ever said I promise you I'm a faithful. Yeah I mean he's very practiced at that but other than that, so who else is in for the Telegraph? The Daily Mail General Trust, which is the who own the... So the Daily Mail and or Newscorp could buy it and that's not a problem for the Monopolies Commission?

If you go over 50% of the market then you're in, you can't. But what's interesting with the mail is that the mail, you think, oh the mail created mail Online. A guy called Martin Clark basically built that up from a nothing start, an online offering, and it became absolutely massive. No one knew what... People hadn't heard of the Daily Mail, even in New York or something like that. Maybe you'd heard, but not as a general thing. They've got all their own media in the US, but what people want is those Anglophone subscribers because it's a big, big pool of people that you can sell your content

to you already. So if you're a UK newspaper what you're saying is there is a ready-made market in America which is five times the size of the UK market they all speak your language you have the tools to make a website and to report on things why not expand? This is what the Guardian did, you know also Australia again these anglophone countries, you don't have to change anything and you can just hire more staff and create more content. So Martin Clark basically built the mail online

into, from nothing to something which is now the 12th biggest news website in the US. The BBC is the 10th, to put it in perspective, the Guardian is the 18th, the Sun is the 23rd. So something that was once our massive market leader in terms of news is now fallen back. Now the Telegraph doesn't even sort of rate on that, but Lord Rothmeier, who owns the Daily Mail

and is taking it back into private ownership, obviously sees what happened with mail online and how you can create something. And he says, we believe there's an enormous potential in the US, which has sadly become polarized between the left and the right. Yeah, you think? Both in print and broadcasting for a centre right publication like The Telegraph.

Now, when you read headlines like that, you're not really thinking centre right, are you? You're thinking wingnut right. So that's what's interesting about those things. If the mail were to buy it, it will be interesting to see what they did. If they were trying to reverse that brand into a strategy they've already proved with MailOnline. So they would want to be trying to, I don't know, I guess, create a right of center thing.

Is there the market for that in MAGA world in America now? Right-wing content is really right-wing in the US. As we've talked about on the podcast before, their news market is so polarized. They don't have anything like the BBC, which is this great, huge anchor at the center of British public life that really lots of people trust and use it all the time. They don't have anything like the BBC, which is this great, huge anchor at the centre of British public life that really

lots of people trust and use all the time. They don't have anything like that. So it might work. You notice with the mail, how successful it's been for them. You've now noticed that more and more is going behind a paywall on MailOnline. They've got something called MailPlus.

So it's going premium as they call it. And they've studied so well over all of that time, what goes viral, what people love, what gets the biggest hits. First of all it was like two or three things a day and now it's so many things because they've worked out how to make that money. Is their success in America because their content is not explicitly political, it is actually lifestyle and celebrity? The celebrity side of it has driven it completely, completely. They do have some political stuff but it's not where you go to for that. No one, yeah, that's not the stuff behind the paywall.

Yeah, it's become an international thing and American celebrities would give exclusives to Mail Online. American paparazzi will want to sell to Mail Online because it's a great place to put, you know, they run so many pictures. It just became this huge phenomenon. So is there a category error? It seems like there is to me that some of these newspapers, so the Telegraph, let's take Telegraph as an example gonna skew right to politically will skew right a bit more politically So we get more clicks and then we can break into America like our rivals the Daily Mail did with MailOnline Because that's a huge market for us and this is the way for us to do it But actually that's not what happened what happened is the people behind the MailOn online really understood what people actually want on the internet

Which is celebrity and lifestyle and not politics and if you want to break into the political world in the states Actually, the market is not Where you want it to be and the market is not as big as you're hoping it's going to be no You're still even though obviously there are many more people You're dealing often with fringe markets or polarized markets. So the Telegraph has tried to build, they kept saying, we want a million subscribers. We want a million subscribers. That's how they want to pay for their journalism. It's hard to know because a lot of these, and they have hit that at the end of last

year, I think they hit their target of a million subscribers, but some of those are paying, you know, a pound for three months and there is masses and masses of churn. I haven't seen anyone do, and I still think there's a place for this, is micropayment for articles. And people talk about this all the time and no one's really, you don't see anywhere that's really made it work, but so many people would pay small sums for some articles and people talk about, you know, would you pay for 10 articles a month? People forget they've got that and they don't really want to, but if you pay for the thing that you want to read right now and it's a small amount of money, I still think it could work and someone just hasn't

cracked how to do it yet. Is there a feeling about who actually will buy it or is it still absolutely up in the air? I think it's really up in the air and it depends on the price. I think most people think that Paul Marshall really wants to have the spectator and they could hive that off maybe, but there's some, you know, people are saying, oh Murdoch really wants to have it. I don't know, as in oh Murdoch really wants to have it I don't know as in old Murdoch yes old man Murdoch and it's

hard to know I'd clearly the mail do want it and why do they want it that's just just out of interest what there are economies of scale on all of these things and and obviously having had such an unbelievable success with mail online they believe they can replicate it in some way or they can a business case, maybe they don't spend as much, but there's a business case for getting those Anglophone readers. So yes, whether it will have more or less mad headlines we'll have to see. Now Matthew Perry and his awful ketamine assisted death and the people who enabled him, the doctors and the assistants

and so on. We want to talk about that a little bit and what it tells us about Hollywood, what it tells us about fame. What's your take on it? Well, what happened was ever since Matthew Perry died, he was found floating in his hot tub. They have been investigating and five people have been charged, including his personal assistant, Kenneth Iwamasa, and two doctors who were, you know, some of their messages saying, I wonder how much this moron will pay, let's find out. This is a story, well, there have always been bent doctors as long as Hollywood has been around.

There's something about your body effectively being the moneymaker that right back in the golden age of the studios, people like Judy Garland being given pills. When Debbie Reynolds got singing in the rain, she said, I'm so tired. And her doctor said, you must have a week off. And the studio said, get another doctor and have these pills. And she thought, I wonder if these are the vitamins that helps Judy Garland. Judy Garland said that they would give me and Mickey Rooney pills to keep us on our feet long after we were exhausted. This is from her biography, which is really good. Then they'd take us to the studio hospital and

knock us out with sleeping pills. Then after four hours, they'd wake us up and give us the pet pills again. So we could work for 72 hours in a row, half the time we were hanging from the ceiling, but it was a way of life for us. She was dead of an overdose at 47. So there've always been these ways.

And actually you see it in music as well, as we know, where you're on an arena tour and at certain point your entourage expands to maybe you've got someone who's giving you B12 injections to because you can't get ill, you can't possibly get sick and cancel things. In a way there are all these people always trying to keep you on the road making money. Now this wasn't the case with Matthew Perry which I think is really sad. Also it's, I mean, it's terrible when you get into any situation where no one can say no to you.

Yeah. And clearly this assistant who'd been his assistant for 25 years, you imagine the identity becomes almost completely subsumed by the stars. It's really odd, like a sort of faithful old retainer. He'd injected him with ketamine three times already that day. This is such a sort of mess.

But what, what I think is so interesting about a story like this is just how people can kind of go down deeper and deeper into the pit of obvious criminality. And, um, story made me think of a story that came out a few months ago, the story of P Diddy. And he's now at a mercy of a number of lawsuits for sex trafficking, civil lawsuits, alleging rape, exploitation, violence. They turned over his house and he

was sitting in an airport on a plane and they got onto that plane and he was free to go in the end. But there was one guy on the plane. He was what people now think was the drug mule. So that guy is arrested. And of course he wanted to be a music producer and so on, in the same way that there was someone who wanted to be a film producer who's involved with getting all this ketamine for Matthew Perry. And then a video came out for his ex-girlfriend, Cassie Ventura, he did his ex-girlfriend,

a 2016 surveillance video. This is how long, this came out this year, and it's in a hotel corridor and he is attacking her, kicking her, punching her, and then dragging her limp body back to the room. So this is what I'm talking about. You think about the level, the amount of people who have to be involved in the entourage in

various ways of covering this up, of making things going away outside places like the hotel is going to what hand over its security footage apparently for a price and you read all this stuff it's so lawless and it's why we're obsessed with these stories it's like something from I don't know Game of Thrones or from history these kind of these courts these fiefdoms where nobody can say no and people descend into like absolutely bizarre group behavior which well it's a one industry town LA I mean it's not but it is, you know it's absolutely dominated by entertainment and particularly by the movie and television business. It's a ludicrously

profitable one as well if you get to the very very top of the pyramid. So if you are a doctor or if you are somebody who works in a hotel, everywhere you go in LA, someone is on their way up to that world. Anyone who's working in a hotel, anyone who's working in a restaurant, anyone who's parking your car, they all want to be somebody in that industry. So of course if something happens, a big star comes in, of course you keep your mouth shut about it. Of course certain doctors are attracted to that, are attracted to clients who have very

little time, a huge amount of money, and perhaps are not the smartest people in the world. If you're someone who wants to prey on people, that's the perfect place to go. It's full of huge stars who are enabled and who are said yes to all of the time. By the way, also lots of huge stars who are absolutely smart as whips and you couldn't, you know, add to a number on any of them, but there's enough who are not that smart. And so yeah, it attracts hangers on and it attracts blaggers and it attracts criminals because if you have an industry that's raking in billions and billions and billions and billions of pounds every year, and that money is staying in that city and

in the pockets of a very small amount of people, then if you're any sort of grifter of any way, you know that getting 0.001% of that money is going to give you a very, very nice lifestyle. Yeah. But what I find so extraordinary about it is the level to which people can kid themselves and say, I needed the job. You know, there are other jobs with Michael Jackson. One of his advisors said, Michael, you know, you're going to wind up in a lot of trouble.

Why don't you stop all this stuff with the young boys? And Jackson just says, I don't want to. And you think, yeah, but did you leave at that point? Did you, did you, the advisor? No, did all the people who worked in that house, did all the people who worked around it? No, nobody left. And everyone says, oh, it's really hard to get a job. This is, there's something else that is keeping you there. There is, there is the proximity to a certain, there is being part of the court. There is being part of it. It's not, there are other jobs, there are many other things you

could do. It's much more psychological, um, the reason that people stay. And I think that the sheer volume of people involved in these activities, enabling Matthew Perry or sort of shutting down bad stories about P. Diddy for years and years and years, these are so many people involved in this, there is something that keeps people just like monster the flame coming back for it. Yeah, fame and power are very seductive.

So for example, if you were part of the court of Henry VIII, say, now an incredible place to be and you're always going exciting places and mad stuff is happening all the time, you're aware that it's very precarious. You're aware that if you're working in the court of King Henry VIII, you are more likely to be killed or imprisoned than if you're working in a nice country house somewhere in Shropshire. Right. You know that. And you could go and get a gig in Shropshire any day you wanted, but people still gravitate to it. It is, but it is seductive. You see it all the time and a city where it's all that, where everyone is either famous or trying to be famous, I mean, that's the ketamine in a way. But when you become super, super, super famous, you just think, oh, there is nothing here.

So if you're Matthew Perry, oh, actually there isn't anything here other than the house and the car and these stuff. But if what's in your heart isn't there, it's not suddenly gonna get there when you become famous. And so another drug is needed. Fame is the drug for so long. And when you run out of whatever that did to you, then I guess,

it comes in and takes its place. It was interesting that the assistants, you can see the LinkedIn profiles of these people so you can see his LinkedIn profile in which he says I thrive in chaotic situations which call for order I am discreet loyal and on an absolute confidentiality. But yeah as you say the Doxers is the most shocking thing and a long history of in Hollywood and the music business of abusive Doxers. And anywhere there's plenty long history in Hollywood and the music business of abusive doctors. And anywhere. And anywhere. There's plenty in London.

There are plenty of people who will give you what you want within private. There's a whole sort of underbelly of private medicine of people who will. We have it less, I think, in our country because we have a form of socialized healthcare, but it does exist. But I think when it becomes such a constantly capitalist enterprise, and you're being charged enormous amounts of money for legal prescription drugs, then perhaps the lines get more and more blurred. But it's obviously, I don't know why we should think that doctors are uniquely noble people because history has shown us that lots of them aren't.

It's just one of those things. They're just another group who could take advantage of you But it is shocking to read people who took all sorts of oaths and went through long long long training saying this about someone Yeah, because it is not shocking that drug dealers will give you drugs. That's not sure that's very much Listen, that's does what it says on the tin It is not shocking that personal assistant who's looked after you for 25 years and is absolutely codependent on you will do the things you ask them to do. It is shocking that someone who is a doctor and whose job is to make sure that you are safe and sane and happy and healthy sells you the thing that...

But then look at the opioid crisis. We know this. We know that this was not begun by doctors, but it was enabled by doctors. That role of assistance is very interesting in Hollywood because everyone's got them. And actually Bisquite is a very good place, but the dark side of it can be very, very dangerous. We should say that there is a version, a functional version ideally, of this type of ecosystem around every big star because you need lawyers and assistants and hairstylists and perhaps doctors who are giving you vitamin shots or that and it's when it sort of just clicks on each of those a few removes and suddenly you are in a

really twisted court. And also if you, while you're working, while you're going around the world actually those people are all working for you. When you're, when you have downtime, which celebrities do sometimes and they're not working for a bit, then all those people are still on the payroll all those people have still got to find something to do and you know It's it's no wonder that occasionally they make themselves indispensable. They make themselves indispensable. Exactly. I remember my favorite assistant story when So many of my stories start with when I was on the one show I'm on the one show and seals coming on and his assistant comes in beforehand goes. Um, um Seal doesn't shake hands Seal doesn't shake hands I'm so sorry Seal doesn't shake hands and then Seal comes in first thing he does is shake my hand

okay and if anything sums up the job an assistant does it is that. Recommendation time you're very kindly already recommended We Solve Murders which is available for pre-order. Available for pre-order as is Craig Brown's book, which is called A Voyage Round the Queen. Craig Brown is one of our funniest, most brilliant, cleverest writers. And he's sort of in the last few books kind of reinvented the whole genre of biography. He did the Amazing Beatles one. Oh yeah, the Princess Margaret one called Mam Darling is one of my favourite books. It's absolutely hysterical. I laughed, I think, on every page. But the new one is about

the Queen, the late Queen Elizabeth II, and it is absolutely brilliant. And that comes out on the 29th of August. I will recommend, I'm going to go old school. I think you get it on Apple TV. You know, when you're always looking for a new American sitcom, like just a lovely 20-minute-er that sees you through the day, party down. So it's from a while ago, maybe 10 years ago. But yeah, really, really, really funny side. If you're just looking for like one of those proper old fashioned, funny American sitcoms

that you can just watch a couple of episodes of, Party Down, we're gonna do a question and answer episode on Thursday. We most certainly are. Please join us for that. Do send your questions to therestisentertainmentatgmail.com And we will see you all on Thursday. Bye everyone. And there you have it. Dr Al Bamarwi is not responsible for the death of Lord Harmson. British Podcast Award nominee for Best New Podcast. We simply must ask ourselves who planted the idea in Lord Harmson's head that he was

stung by a bee? Who was in the hospital garden that very morning to do so? And who was sleeping with his wife? British Podcast Award nominee for Best Fiction. Doctor Sir Michael Wyn Stanley. British Podcast Award nominee for the Listener's Choice Award. Officers, take Doctor Sir Michael away. Show him to his cell.

He could do with a lie down. He's been a busy little bee. What happened? No, please. Okay. Oh my God. Oh my God. What? He wasn't recording.

Oh what? Stupid, stupid mic. Everything okay? No. Why okay? No. Why not? The adventure didn't record. We only have the end. But that was the best adventure yet.

Yeah, I know that. From Goalhanger, the breakneck series Gen Z is hooked on, says the Times. Oh, okay. Let me hold your weight. Okay, I'm gonna do no-carb November, so I might be a little heavier than usual. Shut up and get on with it. Very funny, mildly sweary and hugely popular, says the Guardian. Ah!

OK, OK. Oh, come on. Excellent! All right, not that bad. No, not at all. Sherlock & Co. The adventure of the Red Circle begins Tuesday 20th August. Catch up with the show now wherever you get your podcasts.