The Rest Is Entertainment - Millie Bobby Brown Has Had Enough

Episode Date: March 18, 2025

As Disney's newest live-action remake of Snow White becomes the centre of America's latest culture war, facing backlash over casting, messaging and its portrayal of classic themes... Richard and Marina unpack why this might become the mouse's biggest ever fumble. Millie Bobby Brown has grown up in the public eye after coming to world wide attention in Netflix’s Stranger Things. Now in her early 20s the actress is facing constant comments about her appearance, causing her to go online to personally call out journalists harassing her. Why do the media and the public have such intense reactions to female celebrities growing up? Facebook - the home of free speech? Sarah Wynn Williams, former Facebook Director Of Global Public Policy and author of ‘Careless People: A Story of Where I Used to Work’ as the company have denounced their former employee, claiming the book is “a mix of out-of-date and previously reported claims about the company and false accusations about our executives”. Is the battle for free speech more interesting than the content? All this, plus Richard Osman reveals the highly anticipated title of his next Thursday Murder Club book! Recommendations: Marina - Adolescence (Netflix) / The World Of Tim Burton (Design Museum) Richard - Drive To Survive (Netflix) Join The Rest Is Entertainment Club for ad free listening and access to bonus episodes: www.therestisentertainment.com Sign up to our newsletter: www.therestisentertainment.com Twitter: @‌restisents Instagram: @‌restisentertainment YouTube: @‌therestisentertainment Email: [e-mail] Producers: Neil Fearn + Joey McCarthy Assistant Producer: Aaliyah Akude Video Producer: Jake Liascos Executive Producers: Tony Pastor + Jack Davenport The Rest Is Entertainment is proudly presented by Sky. Sky is home to award-winning shows such as The White Lotus, Gangs of London and The Last of Us. Visit Sky.com to find out more 🌏 Get our exclusive NordVPN deal here ➼ https://nordvpn.com/trie It’s risk-free with Nord’s 30-day money-back guarantee! ✅ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

We are delighted to announce that our good friends at Sky are once again proud partners of the rest as entertainment. We are extremely delighted Marina. Sky has a huge 2025 planned and they're excited to share their unrivaled range of entertainment which has never been easier to discover. And there is no better way to enjoy their selection of new shows and films than by using Sky TV. Sky OS powers the Sky TV experience and it lets you control your Sky TV with your voice so you can find your favorite shows and movies from Sky and the other apps without lifting a finger, my favorite way. Oh, I love not lifting a finger. I love not lifting a finger. Just say hello Sky, followed by what you want to watch, who you want to see and it will be on your screen before you know it.

Without having to lift a finger, you can get all your favorite entertainment quickly with both Sky shows and other apps in one place. Visit sky.com to find out more. Hello and welcome to this episode of The Rest Is Entertainment with me Marina Hyde. And me Richard Osmond. Hello Marina, how lovely to see you. How lovely to see you too as always. How are you? Yeah I'm all right, I'm not bad. Ingrid has been away all week filming a new Netflix thing so I've literally just been writing the book and watching the entire series of Drive to Survive. as always. How are you? Yeah, I'm all right. I'm not bad. Ingrid has been away all week filming a new Netflix thing, so I've literally just been writing the book and watching the entire series of Drive to Survive.

Which I have seen. It is compelling. It's really good. It's really well made, you know, even though I know the results. I love it. Can I ask you a question about your week? Yes, you can. What is that snack that you have? Because we've talked about our extruded mango snack. I think you found an even worse Spotify snack. I have got, well, I've got two snacks here. One, I want to say it's 9 a.m. on a Monday morning, so that's not very nice, is it? But one is a roasted fava bean

pieces, which is super healthy surely because certainly not super tasty. But look, Spotify have provided us both with an entire thing of sour gummies, like a really quite substantial size jar, which is again, great with a coffee at 9am. I never go without. That's a gesture from Spotify to apologize for the fava beans. Yeah, I mean, I think, you know, we've got a sort of, there's no deficit, everything's just sort of cancelled out really with these snacks. Yeah, we start even. What are we talking about this week? Well, first of all, I think you might have exciting news about the title later on of

the new Thursday Murder Card book. Yes, after the break I will reveal that title. God, people won't be able to be fast forwarding they won't believe it. Yeah, it's literally just finished and we have a title so I'll be revealing that. But more importantly, we're talking about Snow White, the live action Snow White movie which started in a sort of blaze of this is going to make a billion dollars and over the years of it being in production, every single wheel has fallen off. It comes out this week and we'll talk about quite why those wheels have fallen off. Very good.

We're also going to talk about the Facebook book, Careless People, which is a sort of whistleblowing expose of life at Facebook now meta by the former director of global public policy, Sarah Wynne Williams. Also Facebook's attempt how to publish a book in total secret, which is what the publishers did and Facebook's attempt to retrospectively stop that. Yeah. Facebook being the Barbara Streisand of the piece. Yes. And also talk stop that. Yeah. Facebook being the Barbara Streisand of the piece. Yes. And also talk about Millie Bobby Brown. Yes. Millie Bobby Brown, who has been the sort of subject of quite relentless attention

on her appearance, saying she looked old, whatever, and who therefore has recorded a video in which she called out lots of people by name who write these articles or have said certain things. And we're going to talk about that whole thing. I think it's a really, I actually think that's a very interesting subject. In a packed show today. Can we begin by sorting out what is real and what is not about Disney's supposed woke disaster movie? Snow White.

Just some facts. It was, I think it was greenlit in 2021. It has cost at least 270 million without marketing. So that's going to take it to sort of 455. The tracking, which is what tells you, as you know listeners in advance, how much something might make and how well something might open is saying that it might take $53 million domestic on its opening weekend, which is next weekend. That is definitely not good enough when they've spent all this money.

And why? Because Disney are so woke. That's what's happened. Can we do the timeline of what's happened? Because I think we actually need to go back to... Yes, because I know it's green this in 21, but really it's been on the cards since about 2016. That's when it was first mooted, which is, you know, Disney had hits with these, you know, live action things they'd done, Maleficent, Cinderella, things like that. So it was an absolute no-brainer at that point. Of course we're going to do a live action Snow White. The most iconic one in some ways, or the one that sort of started it all. And they have, as we say, we've gone back through their back catalogue

and are sort of revitalising them by, or not, by making these live action versions. It's about as easy a green light as you're going to get remaking Snow White after a series of hit live action things. But and yet 10 years later, here we stand. So 2016 is when it was first muted. I think 2019 is when it went in to production and when they started getting. It was announced in 2021 actually. So I think it was announced that Rachel Ziegler would be playing Snow White and people there was some sort of you know people always looking to have a backlash against Disney for anything really because it's not like other studios for all sorts of

different reasons. And also MAGA loves picking a fight with Disney, MAGA versus Disney is the sort of. It definitely was back then particularly and it you know Disney's got that particular sort of hold on the American imagination and it's a little bit like Bond or whatever for us. It feels like it's somehow intrinsically part of our national story. Anyway, they didn't like that she was Latina Rachel Zegler, which is, I have to say in the pictures from the film, which I haven't yet seen, because it hasn't come out, she looks so like the sort of cartoon version.

Literally looks exactly like Snow White. She has an amazing voice. She was terrific in West Side Story, which I wasn't quite sure why that remake ever happened, but she was terrific in it. So again, Disney are, okay, we've got this IP. It belongs entirely to us. We have this story. We know American people love it already.

Suddenly this actor falls into their lap. She's in West Side Story. She's incredible. She looks like Snow White. They're thinking, oh my God, this is amazing. This is just getting better and better. They booked Pace Second Pool, who did Dear Evan Hansen, La La Land, booked them to sort of update some of the songs as well. They're thinking, I mean, nothing, absolutely nothing can go wrong with this. Right. Well, Peter Dinklage goes on a podcast out of left field and says,

not out of left field's opinion necessarily, but you're not necessarily expecting this. He's on some podcast about something else. And he said, you know, I keep reading that they're going to update this story, but the whole thing is still completely backward because you've just got these dwarves like living in a cave. Then they can't work out whether they're going to cast people with dwarfism or whether they get, and in the end they're going to get around this whole thing by saying it's all they're going to be CGI. Yes, they're magical creatures. They're not dwarfs. They're magical creatures. But magical creatures who look like people from the right they're getting why have you got Rachel Zegler,

she's Latino and from the other side of things, they've got Peter Dinklage going, I don't think you are progressive because actually this is incredibly regressive. But you know, still it's Snow White, they're Disney, everything will work out. If she goes on a load of interviews and she says, this story is extremely dated when it comes to the idea of women in roles of power. This is, you know, it's about a guy who literally stalks her. People are making all these jokes about us being the PC Snow White and it's like, yeah, it is because it needed that. Wow. Shut

your star up. Okay. No. But also, I mean, here's the thing. Firstly, she's right. And that's the point of Disney. That's the point of remaking these things is they tell stories for their times and the fun of Disney. I'm going to come back to that point in a minute. Really, when we finish the timeline. Yeah. The fun of Disney though is they update things. And also if you see, I like the thing where she talks about some Prince Charming stalking Snow White, which, listen, it sounds bad written down, but she's laughing. Someone's interviewing her, she's asked a question about it, she's having a laugh about it.

But media training needs to get all of that out of you. Don't make any jokes, don't make any news. But that's the thing. She's making a joke and, you know, we've learned a long time ago, one must never ever make a joke about anything in this world. So a few cracks are starting to appear. Peter Dinklage, Rachel Zegler is starting to say a few things on social media about the storyline and still the rumbling, which is the most pathetic thing of all of this is saying, how can you have a Latina playing Snow White? Yeah. So it was just this sort of background story. She does also, then after October the 7th, she makes various comments about free Palestine, things like this. She makes political statements

effectively on her Instagram or whatever it is. The Wicked Queen is being played by Gal Gadot, who has famously served in the IDF and who quite recently has said has been very vocal about people not condemning Hamas. There's that sense that there's a conflict among the stars of the film. Whether or not that exists, we don't know. Well, that's the biggest issue of all, there's all sorts of actors, you know, hashtag Free Palestine and all those sorts of things. It was taken as every single thing that Rachel Ziegler said was taken as a slight against Gal Gadot and every single thing Gal Gadot said was taken as a slight against Rachel

Ziegler. And these are your two stars, the two stars of this movie, which three or four years ago was the biggest slam dunk in the history of Hollywood and now it's been into less and less so. And then Donald Trump wins the presidency again. Sorry if you're catching up on last year. No, I haven't. You know what? I had it recorded. I've had a feeling he might. I'll still watch it. Anyway, still watch it. It's good when it happens.

The next season's going to be amazing. Anyway, she then says, may Trump supporters never know peace along those lines. As a result, this thing is now sort of freighted with all of this controversy. And I don't want to say that Disney is walking away from the movie, that I do have a very big sense and so does everyone that they are just trying to get through it. So it's got this really scale-back premiere. Now you know when you see premieres and they've got especially a big Disney premiere, the red carpet takes you know 90 minutes because there are journalists from every single country asking you know funny

little questions on the red carpet sitting or whatever. They can't risk this this one. So they've got to have a sort of closed premiere effectively with kind of Disney's tamed journalists asking the questions. They only started pre-selling tickets, which 11 days before release, and that's so that people won't be able to say, well, hang on, they're selling really badly. Normally you do it a month more out for a big event. Okay. They're not showing it to journalists. Cancelled the London premiere. There's going to be a London premiere.

The European premiere was in Segovia in Spain and was, and was to a hundred people. In a sort of closed castle. A hundred influences. One, one assumes friendly influences. I mean, genuinely, you can say what you like about, you know, exploiting IP, but for whole generations of people, it's fun to have a live action Snow White. It's a thing that people would have welcomed into the culture.

And just merely a few years later, this becomes one of Disney's great embarrassments. And as you say, they are literally sort of trying to slide it off, slide it out of our culture. And they're trying to sort of think- Just to get past it. Just to get past it. And then the money has been spent, as you say, the budget's very big and marketing money is huge

on top of that. The marketing money is not a huge amount anymore because they're not spending a huge amount on marketing. Don't need to, we're all hearing about it. But a lot of it's already been bought in, a lot of the ads and stuff. I mean, they're not getting away with a whole lot less. What I would say is, you know, is it even a crisis?

Because sometimes you just read about these things and it's just, and part of it is, this is just a good thing that you can keep writing stories about. And there is definitely an element of that. And it becomes a sort of slightly self-fulfilling thing. And they have really, really gone for her. It would probably be helpful if this was released under the Biden administration. That's another thing that- It'd be easy. Lots of things that have sort of come to after five years of creative fruition have come to market now. It's one of those things that you slightly feel like, oh, this is...

This is the first thing to go over the top since the Trump administration came in. What about Megan Show? This is the first... What about the Megan Show? The first movie to go over the top. I think the Megan thing is... I'm not sure anyone is too worried about that. I'm not sure that would have succeeded under Biden or Trump.

No. Maybe under JFK. I don't know that would have succeeded under Biden or Trump. No. It needed to. Maybe under JFK. I don't know. It might have done. So it's the first one that goes over the top. And so every single, you know, all the tanks are aimed at it culturally. That's for sure.

The New York Post, which is one of Murdoch's many mouthpieces, you know, keep repeating this thing of go woke, go broke. And just to be clear, there's nothing woke about this film other than there's a Latina actress who looks exactly like Snow White. So that feels like pure racism. And that's, you know, that's all they've got. It's not really woke apart from that. It's a confected nothing really, because it will still be the Snow White story. I mean, honestly, you can't, they don't let you change anything. Yeah. But as my grandfather used to say when he was in the police, if you're called to a fight in a pub, make sure you're second through the door.

And Snow White, unfortunately, is the first through the door. I think that a few interesting things will get onto how one deals with talent in this age and how one deals with talent on social media. One interesting thing I think is the culture wars, which have been fought long and hard and boy, we've all been in the trenches for a long time. The culture wars are now about to take on a completely different hue, I think. So this is the first time when there's been a huge backlash against the movie, when the people on that side of the culture

wars on the Trump side of the culture wars are in charge. And so this thing that's been a fun hobby for the online right for many, many years, and they have loved doing this trolling they've done, you know, has been a joy to them. When you're in charge, it becomes something different and it becomes a form of bullying and it becomes something where you think, I understand when you are fighting against something, you do whatever you can, but you're in charge now and therefore they are in danger of showing their true colors and they're

in danger of showing to people actually what is being thrown out under this administration and the things we are going to lose under this administration. I think interestingly it's a turning point where when people who are pro-DEI diversity, equity, inclusion, which a lot of the industry are, I think this is the point at which they can dig in and build their trench and fight back from there. It feels like this is now just bullying. It's gone from trolling to actual bullying. I've got a slightly different take on it. I do think it's, first of all, it's talent mismanagement. Having spoken of Megan, working for Disney is literally like marrying into the royal family, okay? You have to behave in a certain

way and everybody who does it knows it. And someone should have said to her, don't do any of these things, okay? Because you can't. And you may rail against that, you may think that's totally unfair, but that's the sort of payment for being in one of these types of movies. Yeah, that's the tax you pay. That's what, yeah. And if you do do that, people will come down on you very hard. So it's a mismanagement of her. She's very young and there's no reason she's expected to know, but someone has failed to

manage it correctly. Yes, if I was her, I'd be doing what she does because she's a human being. And also the Trump thing, come on, this is two years after you first blew up for, after the political comments here. You should have learned your lesson by that point. Just don't do it, okay? Because it's just going to cause problems. I really believe these films just cannot bear the weight

of this absolute nonsense way that their stars talk about them. I'm sorry, I find it absolutely ridiculous. I remember, I actually had to go back and look this up because I just remember laughing about it at the time. When they did the Beauty and the Beast remake with Emma Watson and Dan Stevens, his interviews were so absurd about it. I remember at the time, he said that he'd been really captivated by some speech he did at the UN and then I'm gonna give you a quote from Dan Stevens. Bear in mind this is publicizing Beauty and the Beast. Okay, you need to engage masculine energy and grapple with what that balance is, what that entails, what are the elements of the patriarchy that need

walking down and which are just elements of masculinity that need to be balanced with femininity. All of these ideas are very much at play in Beauty and the Beast and they're also very much at play in Emma Watson's mind. Is this still the movie about the girl who has a sort of stockfetzolem syndrome with a big furry thing? Because this is so ridiculous, okay? And Rachel Degler herself was sort of unfortunately still leaning into that type of complexity. She was. I think, yes, she talked about actually this is a thing about women becoming the leaders that they were born to be.

Yeah, she said she's dreaming about being the leader. She knows she can be, it's like, do me a favour, okay, she talks to some animals, there's a homicidal stepmother and a magic mirror. It's so ridiculous when you hear adults, grown-ups, trying to sort of wrangle the politics, sexual politics of the enchanted wood. This is a nonsense. These films cannot support the, it's the way that people sort of talked about Marvel movies. And they just actually, let's just get over ourselves. Okay. It's Snow White. And have some entertainment. Yes, please. It is such an, I really find it complete nonsense. And I tell you what, sorry, can I just stick on this? Because I think it feels to me like you are becoming

the leader you were born to be. Sorry. No, I'm going to shut up after this. No, please don't. I remember seeing a picture of Dan Stevens. Yeah. Who, he's brilliant, by the way. I always think. I'm not,. Yeah, he's brilliant by the way, I always think. Listen, I'm not condoning. There was an earnestness there that I almost can't forgive. Neither of us can ever forgive earnestness.

And there was a picture of him in the course of promoting this movie and I thought, aha, guess where he was standing? He was standing in Anaheim in one of the parks outside the new Beauty and the Beast ride. And I thought, yeah, that's actually why you're there, Dan Stevens, not to sort of wrangle some sexual politics, is to get people on that coaster. Okay. Let's talk about the mouse. Let's talk about the parks because remember the parks make double all of Disney's entertainment business. And remember that's everything they've got streaming. They've got Marvel, they've got Pixar, they've got Star Wars, they've got all the heritage stuff like this.

And they've got Disney Plus. The parks make double. Selling hot dogs to people who are about to go on a rollercoaster. Yeah, run by Josh DeMara. One time we must do something on the Disney succession because it's sort of hotting up and it's slightly hilarious if you enjoy funny executive battles. Anyway, I'm going to talk to you now about churros, okay? Churros, the snack.

Churros, the snack, right? Okay. And churros have become the sort of thing that people bang on about churros at Disney World, at the parks, around the world. Did you know Doritos were invented at Disney World? Were they? Yeah, did you know that? No, I did not.

That's brilliant. One of the ships at Disney World, he took the offcuts of things and made Doritos. Anyway, listen. I shall just say what those offcuts are. I digress. Sorry, if you listen, Big Dorito, don't sue me. I love them, by the way. I love them.

But yeah, anyway, I'm just pulling out of this one right now. Let's get into churros. Okay. People write about Disney food all the time. They're all obsessed with it. It's a big, big part of being a parks visitor. Last October, they hiked the price of churros, 20 cents. That's a huge thing. Okay. And I'll tell you why, because they sell millions and millions and millions of churros a year. Right. Now churros cost the mouse very little. Churros by the way, they're sort of like a doughy, almost like a doughnut. Like a doughnut stick almost. It's a Mexican thing and it's deep fried. Delicious as well.

Okay, someone wants to work this out. Churros cost the mouse very little. The cost price of churros at that scale is nothing. Shows and movies are really expensive, but they make about 35 million profit from Churros a year, but on a 90% profit margin. Now, they finally last year in 2024 made a profit from Streamy. Do you know how much they made? 47 million, right? They spent more than 23 billion. That's a 0.2% profit margin. So Churros means a lot more to the mouse than Beauty and the Beast or any of that stuff. Okay, having said that, as you can see from Dan Stevens standing dutifully outside the ride, you need Beauty and the Beast to get people to buy the churros. And it's not just that, you know, churros, they don't make a huge amount of money. But the point is, these parks, these things,

they need all this stuff. But it's really interesting how much they spend on streaming. When you think about the sports rights, the licensing, all the stuff to make Disney Plus, and I don't know, 10% of Disney Plus, or maybe more they say, is one show is Bluey, which we love, of course, which we all love. In lots of ways, they're not like any other studio. They've got all these parks, it's a whole different thing. But let's be honest, you need Snow White, you need all this stuff, and you get them in the parks, you see the princesses walking around. It's ridiculous that this has become about the politics of anything. You know, even when Endama was on its, like, the highest of its highs and the money we

were making was crazy, we would look at the money we were spending on cars, taxis for all sorts of people and go, why don't we just run a taxi company? Because it's about twice as profitable. That's all the stuff that we're doing. You know, we sold all these shows around the world and literally, you know, we might as well. Yeah, that's amazing. We sold all these shows around the world and literally we might as well just have our own cab company. Is it all just busy work? I don't want to be early in the morning just... Is all of it just creating jobs

and just giving humans something to do? Of course, almost the entirety of the creative industry is. There's about four hits that fund everything else. As you say, Truro funds the rest. But that's why someone like Dan Stevens has to say that because otherwise, what's the alternative? He goes, look, they just give me $3 million to be in this sort of, I mean, this beauty and the beast. We all know what that is. I've got something else I'm doing afterwards, like an indie film. That's a bit more fun. I'm literally going out for dinner this evening. So where do I have to be standing in front of the roller

coaster? Of course. And what should I say? Something I've got, I can't just say I'm going out for dinner this evening. So where do I have to be standing in front of the rollercoaster? Of course, and what should I say something? Oh, I've got a condor say I'm doing it for the money As I find it empowering I find it an interesting version of masculinity. Of course, you're gonna say that But it's um, it does lead to the rabid fandom, which has seen White hit the buffers doesn't it? Yes. Listen, the whole industry is an illusion. We shouldn't even do this podcast But it's all yeah, it's all built on sugar and fat. The whole thing. Isn't it? The rest is sugar and fat in various combinations. That's a really, really good idea. The rest, the rest is roasted fava beans. Well, I mean that you're not I don't know what the profit margin on that is, but it's too high.

So it's out this week. I hope it does. Okay. You know, the trouble is, I saw that the reviews, I haven't seen it because it hasn't come out, but the reviews have been really good. She has got an amazing voice and I'm sure it's charming. I find it one of the most boring of the properties.

You can tell it's one of the early ones. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You'd probably need to update it a tiny bit. You know, Yeah, but it's still Snow White. Yeah, who cares? Yes. I mean,'s still Snow White. Yeah, who cares? Yes, I mean, you know. Well, who cares? Like everyone cares, but who cares?

You do, I tell you what, you do sit on the sofa when you're watching any of these things for the 15th, 37th, 97th time with your toddler, you do sit there watching Frozen and thinking, oh my God, it's so obvious Elsa's gay, she's coming out. That's what this whole thing is. And you have all these thoughts in your head. But I don't think you perhaps share them with the wider Disney community, because really you're just making a fun film about princesses. Well, that's the point of it, is when you can read those films in any way you wish, and that's the beauty of them. You can take it from a progressive stance,

you can take it from a progressive stance. As soon as you're told what they are, it becomes boring. It's like Eurovision a little bit when Eurovision, you always knew what Eurovision was and what it represented. But every year now you were told what it is and what it represents. And you think, oh, I thought it was more fun when I just, you know, we all just kind of knew and it was fun for everybody. So it is that thing of constantly being told what I still love Eurovision, by the way. By the way, Dan Stevens is amazing in the Eurovision movie. That he's really, really good in. You know, that where there was no nonsense, that where he just turned up, did

a brilliant job and everybody loved it. But yeah, constantly being told why movies are important. Well, we're not going to be, I think we won't see marketing like that. I think that's one of the casualties of sort of sea change in cultural philosophy, which is that you won't see things marketed for, you know, here's why this is important and you sort of should see it. Now is the next thing that's going to happen, production companies getting much tougher on contracts for talent and getting much tougher on their social media output. Do you essentially, do the studios have to start treating young talent in the same way that the BBC treats Gary Lineker?

Yes, they are and I'm actually surprised because her representation is no good because they should have told her this and she should have actually learnt from the first time around and not done it again after Trump won. So fine, but yes, they are gonna have to do that They're gonna have to go through everybody's tweets. So the same thing doesn't happen with Amelia Perez They're gonna have to go through all of this stuff And if they don't they do risk very very, very expensive mistakes. And that's just unfortunately, the entertainment slash political climate we live in. But for them, the financial climate they've always lived in. Churros. Churros. Or just make a load of churros.

Yeah. Start a cab company. Shall we go to some adverts talking of the unlikely ways in which things are funded? And after is I'm going to announce the title of the New Thursday Murder Club novel. Yes, please hurry back everyone. This episode is brought to you by Sky where you can watch unmissable shows such as the new season of Gangs of London, the BAFTA winning Emmy nominated series starring Joe Cole, Michelle Fairley and Shope DeRisou. Now, Richard, in season three chaos erupts after a spiked drugs shipment floods the streets, killing hundreds of civilians. But here is the twist.

I mean, it sounds like a big enough twist already, but you know I love a twist. I know you love a twist. The spiked shipment, it wasn't an accident. It was a planned and calculated attack. Oh my god, knowing what I do about TV crime and writing all that sort of stuff, I suspect this is just the beginning. Correctamundo. I love your catchphrase. So bring me maybe anyone listening up to speed who hasn't seen the first two seasons of Gangs of London.

People absolutely love this show. In the first two seasons we saw the battle for power between Sean and Elliot. Let's not forget he's an undercover cop. Oh man. It came to a climactic head with Sean's now in prison at the start of season three. Now the aftermath of all of that has sparked a brutal power struggle right across the capital's underworld. We're talking tested loyalties, shifting alliances, unexpected betrayals. Who can be trusted? Elliot, who we've seen fight very hard to obtain power,

struggles to hold onto it while behind bars Sean is still able to wield influence and effect events outside the prison walls meaning the various gangs are looking over their shoulders not knowing who to trust. In my books I have a drug dealer called Connie Johnson who's always in prison but she's always got like a Nespresso machine and her Wi-Fi is absolutely sensational. I cannot wait to see what unfolds. Genuinely so many people have told me about this show. Watch season 3 of the BAFTA winning Sky original Gangs of London on Sky right now. Welcome back everybody. Now Richard, please don't keep me in suspense any longer. I would love to know the title.

Of the new book. Well, I finished writing it yesterday. I wrote to the end yesterday. Oh my god, so satisfying. I know, it yesterday. I wrote to the end yesterday. So satisfying. I know. So satisfying. There'll be at some point we'll talk about what happens when you hand it in. When you write the end. Exactly. Because it really, I know there's a, you know, there's a number of things that happen after that point. Yeah. So the title, the title of the next Thursday Murder Club book is The Impossible Fortune. I love it. Because in there, there is an impossible fortune in there, but also it's about luck and chance and what life throws at you. So the impossible fortune, the inspiration all the way through, I wanted to call it Fortune's Always

Hiding, which is from I'm Forever Blowing Bubbles, the West Ham song, you know, Fortune's Always Hiding, I've Looked Everywhere, I'm Forever Blowing Bubbles, Pretty Bubbles in the Air. And so I've- Because Ron is a West Ham fan. Because Ron in the book is a West Ham fan, absolutely. And so I said to the publishers and agents and everyone, I said, oh, this is the name I want, and you know, because of the song. And every single one of them said, what song? So what do you mean what song? It's I'm forever blowing bubbles, fortune's always hiding. And nobody knew those lyrics. Nobody'd ever heard of it.

It's funny because I thought there'd be such a bit crossover between West Ham fans and people who work in public. I mean, yeah, there's a Venn diagram, isn't there? I think it might just be me. Oh, I'm not a West Ham fan, but I know the lyrics to that song. So yeah, I always wanted to call it that

and no one understood it. And then I was thinking, oh, an impossible heist. And I put the two together, impossible fortune, which does everything it needs to do for me with a title. You want it to sum up more than one thing in the book, essentially. You want it to be sort of what the book is about. You want it to work on a number of levels. Exactly. And so as soon as I said, how about Impossible Fortune? You can see the relief again. He's not quoting this football song anymore. They love the impossible fortune. So out in September, the impossible fortune, the fifth book in the Thursday World Cup series.

I'm very excited. I'm going to see it before September. Well we shall see. We shall see. I write it so, I know this feels like a long way away from September, but this is about as close to the... I will be seeing it before September. Sorry, it wasn't really an inquiry. I mean, I'm going to be saying before September, I'm going to insist I get an early copy. I mean, if there are early copies, that's what I'm saying. What if there aren't? I can read it to you from memory. Yeah, I'd like that.

Yeah, okay. Could you come round and stand on my doorstep and read it to me from memory? Yeah, that's a great idea. That would be a lovely idea. Now, talking of Impossible Fortunes and talking of books. Yes. Sarah Wynne Williams. Sarah Wynne Williams is the former director of global public policy at Facebook, which

is now owned by the sort of parent company Meta. And she's written this book called Careless People, which is a memoir of her time, which you've joined like many very, very idealistic as a sort of progressive about what, you know, where the company could go. Yeah, she was working for the UN or something, New Zealand. And anyway, she joins thinking this company can achieve all sorts of things. And anyway, there's a point where someone says in a couple of years, you're going to be as hated as you are as the banks far off the financial crisis. Obviously, we all hate Facebook much more than the banks now. The banks are lovely compared to Mark Zuckerberg's company. It's

interesting. Okay, this book has been published by Pan Macmillan here and Flatiron Books in the US. Obviously, Facebook, I have to say at the start, Facebook deny it all. We know they deny it all because they're now desperately trying to block it. She's the highest ranking Facebook whistleblower so far. We've had a few, we had Frances Haugen, we had Christopher Wiley, who talked about the Cambridge Analytica stuff, and Frances Haugen talked about

the sort of damage done to teenagers. And Facebook were able to say of her, oh, she's never been in a single C-suite decision meeting. Whereas Sarah Wim Williams was in the room where it happened. Yeah, and- They're very worried about their privacy. Yeah, they want some fact checking. Oh my god. It's so beyond.

That's the amazing thing. They've written a letter saying, we demand the right to fact check this book, having justified all of their own fact checkers. You think, oh, they could have done it for you. Yeah. So they had an emergency legal. It came out last week on Tuesday in the States

and Thursday in the UK. And they had an emergency legal, it came out last week on Tuesday in the States and Thursday in the UK, and they had an emergency legal hearing which found that she can't promote it and cannot do anything that might further encourage... So if we wanted to interview her, for example, even get a quote from her, we would not be able to legally, we would not be allowed to... She can't do any of it. Now, what's interesting is that, of course, they were afraid that this would happen. And it's really interesting because the UK publisher of this book told me about the existence of a book quite a long time ago and said, in some months I will send you something that we'll have to sign an NDA about blah, blah. And so they have been so successful in keeping it under wraps. By the

way, it is really hard to do that because people just sort of find out and how they did it was everybody was sort of bound by all sorts of agreements. And then they really carefully decided like who would be able to sit for there was a really good interview with her with Emily Maitlis on the news agents last week, but that was pre recorded you see, but they managed to keep it secret. Can you put out a pre-recorded interview even after an injunction? She's already done it at that point. You've got to sue the news agents for it.

Under what grounds? Well, the thing is that they could use our libel laws. And when I first, I was wondering why they hadn't used our libel laws, because ours are like the worst in the world, and it has been published in London. All the best in the world, depending on who you are, depending if you've just been libeled or not. Depending if you're an oligarch or not.

It's great for oligarchs. If you're an oligarch and want to Yes. It's great for oligarchs. If you want to see, if you're an oligarch and want to see, come to London, they all do. But they haven't, but she has got a lot of evidence as far as I understand it. By the way, I have not, I should say that I have not spoken to her. You've read the book though. I've read the book and I've talked to various people about, well, and I'm not going to state

who they were, but I can say that I have not spoken to her in advance of this discussion. But it's very interesting. So Facebook are trying to ban it. They have got a temporary stop on it. I don't know how long that's going to last in America because obviously First Amendment rights are very important and you know, I know that because Mark Zuckerberg recently kept banging on about it. So they do have a sort of whistleblower pay book Facebook, which is that they discredit the person say that they're nowhere near any decisions. And with her they said, Oh no, we fired her because she was toxic.

And I don't think anything that she could possibly imagine how toxic to be more toxic than Facebook. It's not really possible. Imagine making that office a worse place. Yeah, it's not really, you know, I want to say very clearly for the record that they are literally some of the worst people in the world. They are genuinely awful. The top end of Facebook.

The top end of Facebook. The top end of Facebook. I mean, yeah, but you know, she keeps saying, all right, this is really dreadful. Why are we doing this? But she does work there for quite a long time. Anyhow, first of all, okay, how she's done it is by saying this is a memoir. This is my personal truth. That's the framing of that is really crucial. There is a sense where, you know, you're entitled to your own story. They say that she's violated her severance. She did preemptively fired a whistleblower complaint with the SEC, the Social Security and Exchange Commission in America. So they've done this. It's so strategic how they've done all of this. And they also say that you know Metta went on record saying during

the sort of Me Too times that anyone who'd been sexually harassed at times of your employment contract about not talking about your bosses, you shouldn't have to do that in secret. And generally there is a view now that if that sort of voids certain things. But when we had our discussion, we were talking about NDAs not that long ago on the podcast. We did during when we were talking about Neil Gaiman, it's quite interesting. Once they've said it, it is out there. And so in a way, the best way to do it is to speak up. And now they can pursue her and they can do all kinds of things, but it's starting to look really bad. It is the strident effect that you talked about. Yeah. The more they pursue her, the bigger the story gets, the more books she sells and

the more people read the things that she has written. It's interesting this book because it sort of tells you everything you already thought was true because we know quite a lot about these people and you I already think there's the worst people Well, she says various things she said, you know There are no adults in the room because there's a bit of you because I'm always in the best of people That's my greatest flaw and my greatest strength, but I always think it oh, yeah But I'm sure somebody somewhere is you know is in control of this and I'm sure someone is at least thinking about it and it appears not. It appears that the green-eyed monster of greed trumps absolutely everything.

And when they know things, they've got this way that they can see when teenage girls have deleted selfies and they sell that moment to advertisers so that advertisers can use that exact moment to sell them sort of tummy flattening things and beauty products. So it's so gross what they do, to say nothing of how hand in glove they have worked with the Chinese regime, which is, I mean, I think that's in some ways the biggest story. They say, oh, we never actually went into China. It's like, but they've done all sorts of other things. Well, she says, doesn't she, in book that that Mark Zuckerberg offered President Xi the opportunity

to name his unborn child? Yeah, and I'm not saying President Xi is cool, but he just says no thanks. I'm okay. Stop being so embarrassing. Imagine being Mark Zuckerberg's wife and her just going, oh, what should we call our child? And he goes, do you know what? Not really up to us, is it? Unfortunately, I mean, it's, it's, they obviously think it's most damaging to them in the US in some ways. But it's damaging everywhere. But as I say, in a way, this book is tells you things that you either suspected already knew. But by going so hard against it, they have, I mean, I really think they've increased sales an awful lot.

I think it's going to do very, very well. book. Is it a good read, by the way? I mean, it's a sort of everything that you thought it confirms everything. But well written. Of what you yeah, yeah. And she does it in a sort of I don't want this to be a review of the book, but you know what I mean. Yes. And she and she tells you the story of, you know, it's a story of crushed idealism, in some ways takes quite a long time to be crushed is probably the only Well, because there's a lot of money involved. The three things that really interested me.

Firstly, she said there came a point where they just, it wasn't that they were in a bubble. The bubble was a private jet. They literally couldn't see outside of this extraordinary rarefied world that they were living in. And they so very quickly got to the very top table in politics. Zuckerberg needed persuading that actually they had helped Trump win the 2016 election. He said, no, there's no way that we did. And she said, well, look, your job is to change what toothpaste people buy. You don't think you can do that for politics. And they took him through everything they'd done. And he became persuaded that of course, Facebook had been useful to Trump and, you know, it gave him political ambitions. So

I thought that's interesting. Another thing that's interesting is that Sarah Wynne Williams says the thing that she watched time and time and time again towards the end there was the Mitchell and Webb sketch of the Nazis going, hold on, are we the bad guys? And it's funny because that's always the meme that's thrown at them. And the fact that she was right in the heart of the beast. And that was the thing she was looking at and going, yeah, this is what's happening. We don't realize what it is that we were doing. Then she jumped ship and the biggest revelation in the thing is that Nick Clegg, Sir Nick Clegg, made a hundred million dollars from Facebook.

It's interesting though, as a publishing story really, just how your relationships are really good if you're a publisher with various buyers, but to be able to say to people, because this is in four supermarkets, this is in Tesco, Asda, Morrisons and Waitrose. By the way, I know we've mentioned it before, but very, very, very few books get into the supermarkets. If you get into the supermarkets, you're absolutely in the big league. Supermarkets have so little space for books, and so they're incredibly selective about what they take. And non-fiction is not a lot of that. So that's a huge deal.

That means it's going to be a big book. Yeah, we've got a big book. We can't tell you what it is, but you would probably want to buy quite a lot of copies. So Tesco's hadn't even read it. It was just the relationship they already have with the publishers. And actually, to some extent, being so secretive, which they had to be, there was literally no way around because they would have injuncted the book. As you can see, it's quite clear that they

would have injuncted the book. They've already tried to stop it. In some ways that cloak and dagger, that intense secrecy has probably helped them. People are like, what the hell is this? Yeah, it's interesting. If you are, I mean, amongst my favourite people in the business, but also the clearest eyed people in the business are the supermarket book buyers who you cannot get around them. If something's not going to sell, they'll take risks and believe in stuff, but you can't just say, yeah, but think about it. They've thought about everything. They've thought about every angle, but yeah, Pam McMillan that I've worked with before,

Pam McMillan will say, you have to trust us on this, because that's an incredibly important relationship for Pam McMillan. You don't want to mess the supermarkets around. So yeah, those have been interesting meetings where they said it's completely secret. That's exciting for everybody. You have to trust us. Pam McMillan must be so confident it's a good book to be able to say that to the supermarkets because they know it's their reputation on the line. And if it's a bad book and doesn't sell next time they go back to Tesco Tesco kind of go, remember the thing about Facebook. doesn't sell, next time they go back to Tesco, Tesco kind of go, remember the thing about Facebook. Exactly. So I would say it's really worth reading. It's a sort of fascinating expose,

often of things that you already suspected were true, but we're horrified to learn even truer than perhaps you thought. And a really amazing cloak and dagger operation by Pam McMillan and Flatiron to actually get it to market because it's so difficult, it could so easily be an injuncted. And it's absolutely a manifestation of that meme of Mark Zuckerberg doesn't want you to read this book because he really doesn't want you to read this book. So maybe it's fun to read it. Yeah.

Shall we move on? We've got three leading stories this week because this is a cracker as well. Millie Bobby Brown. Yes, Millie Bobby Brown, who is 11 in Str Stranger Things but she's also a big star on Netflix which I think is different from being a big movie star but anyway that's for another podcast. She is currently on the sort of promotional tour for The Electric State which is this very very expensive movie that the Russo brothers have directed. 320 million. Unbelievable.

I've seen it, I'll give you my review later. Oh, okay. Right. Well, that's, I haven't seen it. She's been subject in recent months to sort of really a relentless number of news stories, social media, sort of gossip, people saying, you know, she looks old or she was older than she is. And some of it's a sort of thinly coded suggestion that she's using fillers or tweetments or whatever people want to call them. What she did in retaliation

to this eventually was she's done a video saying, I find this really disgusting the way people talk about this. It's amazing how many of these people who write these stories are women. She named lots of the, and a lot of it's male online, just staining the facts here, a lot of it's male online, stated, named them, Matt Lucas had posted a picture of Vicki Pollard and said, which I think she slightly misunderstood the joke there. Yes, he apologised immediately. He apologised immediately and said this is a sort of joke about her and a pink top over her, but never mind. And it's interesting, obviously in terms of people who think they're her fans, but have talked in a, have kind of added to this, it is that whole, you know, no snowflake thinks it's part of

the avalanche thing. But she says, why should I be subject to this kind of relentless scrutiny? And it's, in the old days, you couldn't do this, you didn't have the tools, you'd have to wait till, you know, you're next on a chat show to pull everyone out of the moment and be really kind of censorious and say, I don't like this. But now you can just go on and... But before that, you'd have to wait for your autobiography 40 years later, wouldn't you? Yes. Now it's like 40 minutes. One of the Daily Mail Online journalists who she called out has now resigned from Mail

Online and said, I wasn't strong enough to say no. She's posted an apology video herself saying, I wasn't brave enough to say no. She's posted apology video herself saying, I wasn't brave enough to say no. I've now had a favor of what it's like to be scrutinized. My family's had death threats and blah, yeah, anyhow. There's lots of interesting things about this story. First of all, the reason that these stories are written is because there is a market for them.

The market for those types of stories, by the way, is chiefly women. It's the female gaze and other women policing, other women and how they look is a big market. And pretending that this is all, you know, that that story even has been commissioned by a man is, I don't think, accurate. But there was also a sense, you know, it's interesting hearing what we talked before about Chappell-Roe and what she said about fandoms feeling they sort of own you, these parasocial relationships that have gone too far. And there is something about being a star, a young star, a starlet, as we used to call them now, where it's almost like footballers where people feel like, oh, sorry, we pay your wages. We're entitled to literally,

some people think and have thought for a long time that because they've got a season ticket wherever it's actually fine to stand and shout, I hate your kid gets cancer to someone who's just missed a penalty. Which is an unusual way to view life. Whenever you watch any of the traffic cop documentaries, the worst people in the world are always the people who get stopped for drink driving and saying, I pay your wages. To the police. To the police. Okay. Yeah. So I think there's that element of it.

The type of articles that these were and are, and you see them, I think there's a real ecosystem of those articles. And for me, I find it awful. People saying she's had this or that done. If you look at the journalist from the Mail Online, Lydia Hawken, who ended up resigning, her Twitter timeline was a series of things saying,

I'm urgently looking to speak to a plastic surgeon for a feature, I'm urgently looking to speak to a plastic surgeon for a feature. I'm urgently looking to speak to an aesthetician. I don't even know what my job is, but I can tell you it's probably not properly regulated. I'll tell you what, they ain't making churros. And there are all these doctors and estheticians, if I can possibly say that, who contribute to these articles, even though they don't treat the celebrity in question to say, oh, they've had this done or that done. And those people do it purely to get their name out there so that they can get further business. Referrals, yeah. I've mentioned people who are my lawful prey before. They're on the list, okay? No, I don't

... Aestheticians. Yeah. Just people who come true, who say... In our day, we used to have esteransim. Now we've got estheticians. What are we raising? What are we raising? Anyway, so they purely put their name out to get business. I do think there was something deeper though, which is that she came to prominence in Stranger Things as Eleven and she's a real totemic character and all the kind of boys are slightly devoted to her and her weird and outsiderish way. And actually

there is a cultural thing where not so much women, but actually men can't really deal with those type of people, those type of people becoming young women. And I was thinking of them. So wherever she turns, female or male, the gaze isn't great. Telling girls that they were so sweet when they were children and they didn't wear makeup or sort of fetishizing innocence or saying, you know, I want you to stay my little girl forever. And you know, father saying, well, I'm going to have a shotgun the first time she brings somebody, you know, why that sort of social thing, which lots of people imagine by the way, imagine by the way, a father with a 13 year old son saying

the first time you bring a girl home, I'm bringing out my shotgun. Yeah, I'm going to just be cleaning it when she comes through the front door. That would be weird. It would be weird. But actually, and that's sort of, you know, a sort of ordinary real world sort of thing. Those kind of comments. But there is a thing of male creatives, I think, who can't really deal with people that

either they've had a big hand in their career or else they're even their creations. I often think of Susan and C.S. Lewis in The Last Battle, you know, from The Chronicles of Narnia. Do you know, I am less familiar with The Chronicles of Narnia than I should be. Okay, well, you know Susan's one of the four children. No, I thought you were going to say Emma Watson and I was going to be able to follow it. And now I'm, like you said, Susan and I'm all at sea. Okay, well, she's one of the four children, but in the last battle, she doesn't sort of get into Aslan heaven, as it were, and Peter, her brother says, my sister Susan, answered

Peter shortly and gravely, is no longer a friend of Narnia. Now, a little girl called Marcia wrote in 1955 to C.S. Lewis and was asking about this. And he said, I'm afraid Susan doesn't get back into Narnia. Haven't you noticed in the two that you have read that she's rather too fond of being grown up? Prick. Sorry, C.S. Lewis. I'm so embarrassed for you. I'm really embarrassed for you. Oh my God. But he's not the only one.

Okay, and by the way, that's not the first time that if he's looking down from the great wardrobe in the sky. Oh, C.S. Lewis is dead. Yeah. I'm sorry. You're already are catching on. Wow. Spoilers much. I tell you who else didn't like it. Dickens? No. John Hughes found Molly Ringwald. Molly Ringwald, who was the sort of real muse. He wrote about teenagers really. And he wrote movies about teen.

He wrote all the great coming of age 80s movies or directed them. Can I just say he would be an amazing, he'd have to be two bonus episodes. He's in, I think he's, do you know he became a really hardcore Republican in the end. John Hughes. Yeah. Did he? It's such an interesting story. I really think we should do that for a bonus episode. Sorry. Anyway, going back to Molly Ringwald, she was in 16 Candles, Pretty in Pink, Breakfast

Club. And eventually, you know, she sort of wanted to spread her wings and she grew up, you know, and she wanted to do different types of movies and whatever. And she has said that she was felt he felt it sort of is a real sort of betrayal. That's what I'm saying. There was a sort of thing about, you know, little shaven head at 11, who turned up in the first bit of Stranger Things. In some ways, people want to always keep Millie Bobby Brown like that. You're often in life, you remain the same age that you were when you became famous in people's consciousness. You know, look at even Kieran Culkin and Macaulay Culkin.

There's something about them that they are loved because they are tiny children still. Daniel Radcliffe, he can go to New York and be in any play he wants. And people are always saying, oh, that's nice, isn't he's 14, look, and he's doing that, that's nice. I don't think we'd wish that sort of fame on any child. This is why I think it's probably

best not to break their children on the stage. There is something very adult and exploitative about all of that and all sorts of different things, maybe allowing them to be part of it, maybe whatever, but to not allow them then to transition out of it and to express a sort of moral disappointment in them for simply aging. And I really think that she hit on that Millie Bobby Brown, whether or not she can use those specific words. Well, she said, she said that the reason you think I look old is because you first saw me when I was a child. I'm not a child anymore. And that's very much on you, not on me. I'll

dress how I want to dress. I'll wear whatever makeup I want to make. You know, the fact that you are still seeing me through a different lens is literally nothing to do with me. I'm always going to look older than I am in your head in the same way that you see Macaulay Culkin walking down the street. You go, Oh, he's aged. He shouldn't have kids. He's a child. I agree. And what's interesting is that a of people's reaction to this was, she shouldn't have done this. You've just got to suck it up. You know, we pay your wages, you earn a lot of money. I actually think it is going to be quite a lot harder for the next series of articles like this to be written. They'll store it up and think, how dare you, how dare

you mention our journalists, how dare you, and they'll try and punish her in other ways, of course. But I do actually think that it's a lot harder to do that once someone has said it out loud, like, stop doing this to me. You know, you're being ridiculous. And I think it will be harder to write this kind of articles. I actually think it will be effective in some ways. And she's someone who is in lots of ways quite an old soul because she's got like lots of people who've achieved success of her generation. She already has, you know, a beauty line, a fashion line. She's a sort of mini mogul, maybe just a mogul. And I think that people like that are quite interested

in being powerful and thinking, okay, how do I can deal with this? I'm not just going to accept this. I'm going to handle it. And I think it's exactly that thing of if you are writing about that stuff, you're very justified to say, but we pay her wages. But she is also saying, yes, sorry, but I'm also paying your wages. Yeah. You know, the fact that you've written 10 articles about me and people are clicking

on it, and that's how you're remunerated. I am paying your wages as well. So you mentioned me all you like, I will mention you all I like as well. And let's see how we like it, you know, because it's that's the ecosystem, we're making money out of each other. And so if I'm fair game, you're fair game as well. So let's bring it on. I agree. I would be quite nice when those articles didn't make money from the female gaze. But the fact is, it is a fact of the market that they do. Richard, what's the electric state like? Well, 320 million dollars. I've had terrible things. It costs, it's got 14% on Rotten Tomatoes. Well, as much as that. At the moment. It will shock you to learn Marina, I rather liked it.

It's just, you know what? It's Millie Bobby Brown, it's Chris Pratt, Woody Harrelson voices a robotic Mr. Peanut. It's, I mean, it's sort of Spielbergian. It's, I mean, it's a bit too long, but it is because it's, you know, Chris Pratt's playing a sort of Harrison Ford type character. Oh my god. Millie Bobby Brown. What does that say about our age?

Well, I just, but it's- Something good. Listen, I was looking at my phone throughout, I'll admit that, but I- You second screened it. That's what they want. They want to spend $300 million on things that people second screen. Yeah, I found it diverting enough. The Russo brothers, you know, they know their way around a joke and that to me. Yeah, I found it diverting enough. The Russo brothers, you know, they know, they know their way around a joke. And that to me, honestly, if you if you write something in the jokes, okay,

then I will sit and watch it. If it's got actual jokes written by actual funny people, I will watch it, you know, and it does have that. So I would say, listen, I wouldn't give it 14% is what I would say. I think it looks interesting. Stanley Tucci is in it, he's great, you know, it's got good people in it. I rather enjoyed it. She's great, Minnie Bobby Brown. Can I do some recommendations? Of course you can. Like everybody who has seen it, seemingly, Adolescence on Netflix is absolutely incredible.

I haven't seen it yet, I'm looking forward to it. The second Ingrid is back, we're going to be watching that. Well, I recommend that. And I would also, I went to the Tim Burton exhibition at the Design Museum in London, which has been extended now. I think it goes to the end of May. It is absolutely brilliant. It's got lots of, so many of his drawings, his maquettes, models, everything from the Nightmare Before Christmas, you know, Corpse Bride, obviously all Wednesday stuff, Beetlejuice, Batman things, Edward Scissorhands. It's really amazing. I think he's such an interesting person and to have that sort of weird outsider sensibility, but to have been able to sublimate it into

so many mainstream hits. And it doesn't become trite, that sensibility. And I think it's because the craft and the vision is so deeply realized. And when you're going around this and you're seeing the level of drawings from almost from his childhood, it's an extraordinary mind and he's so meticulous. I love this exhibition and I love him and I think he's such an interesting story. So I love that. So it's amazing how often if you make things with love, they do cross over into the mainstream. If you make things that are a true reflection of your soul, the market responds. And just how long he's kind of put, there's so many abandoned projects there, by the way,

that every single one of them you think, I just so want to know more about this world. But he's, I mean, he's beyond prolific. It's really good. I don't have any recommendations because all I've done is watch Drive to Survive. I'll recommend that for sure, because I think it's brilliant.

Don't forget you can join our members club. Our bonus episode this week is all about chat show disasters. The worst guests ever. I have the absolute inside scoop on the Bee Gees and Clive Anderson. I have absolute eyewitness evidence of every single thing. A multi-car pilot. And it is quite something, I will say that. But that'll be on Friday. That's for members. If you want to be a member, it's therestisentertainment.com. But other than that, question and answers on Thursday. See you all on Thursday.

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