The Rest Is Entertainment - New Book Smells, Vanishing Shows & Never Auditioning

Episode Date: June 25, 2025

Why do new books smell like THAT? Why is Netflix deleting our favourite shows from their archives - and can they ever be recovered? And why doesn't Denzel Washington need to audition? Richard Osman and Marina Hyde answer your burning questions on the world of Entertainment - including why Gladiators is a bore to film and if the team behind the BBC comedy 'The Thick Of It' knew about Huw Edwards before the Met Police. The Rest Is Entertainment AAA Club: Become a member for exclusive bonus content, early access to our Q&A episodes, ad-free listening, access to our exclusive newsletter archive, discount book prices on selected titles with our partners at Coles, early ticket access to future live events, and our members’ chatroom on Discord. Just head to therestisentertainment.com to sign up, or start a free trial today on Apple Podcasts: apple.co/therestisentertainment. The Rest Is Entertainment is proudly presented by Sky. Sky is home to award-winning shows such as The White Lotus, Gangs of London and The Last of Us. Visit Sky.com to find out more For more Goalhanger Podcasts, head to www.goalhanger.com Assistant Producer: Aaliyah Akude Video Editor: Kieron Leslie, Charlie Rodwell, Adam Thornton, Harry Swan Producer: Joey McCarthy Senior Producer: Neil Fearn Head of Content: Tom Whiter Exec Producers: Tony Pastor + Jack Davenport Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

This episode is brought to you by our friends at Sky. Now they really know how to put on a show and to make it easy for us to enjoy them. Everything is just there, no digging around, no endless scrolling. Absolutely, and here's the magic, if you know what you're in the mood for, just say it into your remote. You want something specific, say Sweet Pea, and Sweet Pea would appear. If you want something a genre, just say show show me horror and your sky will show you horror movies, horror TV shows, anything in that genre. It really is magic. It's not magic, it's technology, but it feels like magic.

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Shop online and get $15 in PC Optimum Points on your first five orders. Shop now at nofrills.ca. Hello, and welcome to this episode of the Rest is Entertainment, Questions and Answers edition. I'm Marina Hyde. And I'm Richard Osmond. Hi Marina. Hello Richard. Now, before we even sort of get into the questions, we have some any other business. The QI elves have been in touch.

Oh, it's never good. It's never good. Uh oh. By the way, we love the QI elves. Yeah. But it's like getting a telegram from The Hague. You're like, oh no, have they caught up with me? I never open my mind.

Unfortunately, Richard got a QI klaxon in your recent show when he said that Catch Rays recorded their Christmas episode in May, which was the earliest ever in TV. QI recorded our series W Winter Wonderland episode on March the 11th, over a month before Easter. Can anyone beat that? Yes, I can definitely beat that. Also, people always say, I'm sure we've talked about it. I know when people say, why on earth are you doing this in June or May? It's because if that's when you film for the year, we do 110 episodes of House of Games and we do it in

June and July. It's called public service, look it up. That's when we do it. And that's the cheapest way to do it, is to do it all in one go because the team work for that. You know, everyone just does it. And's when we do it and that's the cheapest way to do it, is to do it all in one go because the team work for that, you know, everyone just does it and so when you do that, you do the Christmas thing because we're not going to be back in studio before December, so we can't just turn up in December and- You can't just turn up and have Christmas in December. Yeah, that's crazy.

Yes, I can beat March, QI, Elves on Do It On No Deal, we once filmed next year's Christmas show last Christmas. So we did it next year's Christmas show last Christmas? So we did it a year in advance. That's what we did. So can anyone beat that would be my next question. Don't try and beat Noel Edmonds. Don't try and beat Noel Edmonds. Fascinating.

We had a lot of response to that Noel Edmonds item on last week's main show, didn't we? Yes. People were very interested. People were absolutely intrigued. I was able to offer some further information on certain matters. Listen, I think we should probably get on with the questions and answers, Richard. I've got one for you. No way.

This is good. Hannah Conwell is in touch to say, hi team, huge thanks for the podcast. You're most welcome, Hannah. Oh, thank you, Hannah. It's a taste of home while I'm in the US. Now speaking of British cynicism, what is the best example you have of something that lost its magic once you saw how it was made? I saw someone saying they've met someone called Hannah recently and asked how it was

spelt. And she said, just two of each. So that's great. Two Hs, two As, two Ns. Hannah, my main answer would be almost always the magic has increased. Almost always the magic has increased when you go and see something being made. Which is weird because it should be smaller. The one cliche you always hear is you go to a TV set and it's much smaller

than you thought it was going to be. And there are certain shows where that is the case. If you could, you know, something like Match of the Day or BBC Breakfast or something like that, when they, you know, they have these amazing screens around them, it's smaller than you think. But because of the lack of shows being made in British studios, most shows are now in huge studios. If you come to House of Games, it's enormous. It looks big and impressive. You get a countdown. It's enormous. These things that you would think you would walk in and go, oh my God, it's tiny. And it tends not to be. There's a traditional one, but it is really, really, really true that you go to see the university

challenge set and you want them to be on top of each other. And of course they're not. And you know they're not because they do have shots during the thing of them being side by side. But even so, when you walk in and you just think, well this doesn't... You want it to be like Blankety Blank. Yeah, you want it to be like Blankety Blank. You just think, well this isn't what I signed up for.

This isn't the show that I see on television. This isn't further education in the United Kingdom and I want no part of it. Yeah, exactly that. And I bow to very few people in my love of University Challenge, I really do. I was just really, really struggling to think of a show that, where there's some magic that disappears the moment you turn up. The show that I would never go and see, again, because I love it and I know it would lose its magic for me and I talk to all sorts of people who have been to see it is Strictly. Now Strictly I love.

I love Strictly so much. But you know, they film both those episodes on the same night as everyone knows that that's not that's not a spoiler. You have to sit in the same seat all the way through and sort of cheer and applaud. And my one thing as a TV producer is always how long is this going to take? And with Strictly, it's really, really, really long. And of course, you've got to turn up before for some, you know, for a group dance, and then there'll be bits in between the two shows,

and then you've got to do the final show. It's just, you'd be there for a really, really, really long time. And what the producers and director on that show do so brilliantly is they make it feel just like an effortless party throughout. You're watching on TV and it's just a joy from start to finish and you're always watching something. There's always sequins in your eyeline. But to go there, I know a few people have said, yeah, I went along to support a friend of mine and they're like, five hours later, I'm still there. I'm sort of, you know, I've got

a grin that sort of, you know, has been plastered on. I was talking to someone who'd been on Strictly, and normally people are very good, they tow the line. But he was saying, when you're actually on that balcony looking at the other contestants, all I'm thinking is I have to dance later and I'm absolutely bricking myself and yet I constantly have to be looking at this person. Occasionally someone I don't like particularly, and smiling and being really, really supportive.

So that's of the whole Strictly Journey, that was the hardest bit. Most of the time you know full well that people love each other, but just occasionally, especially if you're dancing at the end, I do not want to be standing here, I want to be in my dressing room, head in my hands, you know, trying to get my, you know, don't go through my moves, doing this, that, the other, and I can't because the show has to look like this joyous thing, which it does. Gladiators would be another because you just know what an incredibly long record that is. There's no way of doing either of those shows without that. And I know as a producer, I know that. So I wouldn't go along to them because I know some of the magic would be taken off.

I was thinking about this while you're talking, thinking, is there anything? I have to say that there are some things that I've heard about how they were made. And you hear people have horror stories, either as writers or maybe working with very difficult actors, really unpleasant, working in horrible writers' rooms. It's really weird, even when I know this, or maybe the two people who've created the show have fallen out. Even when I know this, I have to say that it doesn't, especially because it's often behind fantastic shows, these sort of things,

and in fact, all the ones I'm thinking about, which I can't really name without betraying confidences, were really big and really successful. But knowing about that behind the scenes stuff, I go back and re-watch and think, can I see it? Can I see that these two hated each other? or can I see this line that they went with instead of what somebody else wanted to have? You know, I hear about it and you hear real horror stories.

It makes you wise to individual people, but I don't think it changes the show for me when I hear, if I loved it first time around, even if I hear that something dreadful happened in order to get it, I don't mind that much. It doesn't ruin it for me. Yeah, I think that's exactly right. You can often know too much about what goes on behind the scenes. I hasten to add I love University Challenge and Strictly and Gladiators. There's just certain things where you just think, oh, that's tough to make.

If you come and see, I think we're going to do a bonus episode soon about how House of Games is made. Joey, our producer, is coming up to talk to all the team about what happens on a day, on a show like that. And so we'll be seeing some of the magic behind the curtain there. But I would hope most people who come along to that show still think it's magic. Owen Riley has a question for you, Marina.

I've read about a number of actors who have said they no longer have to audition for movies and are simply offered roles by directors such as studios. Denzel Washington, who revealed he hasn't had to audition for a role since he won his Oscar for Best Actor in 2001. My question is, what does an actor need to do to be afforded this right? This is a good one. If you don't have to audition, you're what's known as offer only. By the way, nothing in this is hard and fast. Auditions now, I'm sure we've talked about this before, but auditions now are mostly self tape. So you record at home and you send it in.

Offer only means that they're going to make a financial offer to you. You do not have to do an audition. I'm sure Denzel has never had to audition since then because people think,'m gonna, if you get Denzel, how things tend to work is... You build something around him. You're a writer and a director or a producer and you need to attach a star. This is what it means. And if you've got someone attached to the project, then you've got a project basically and you can go out and sell it.

The star is really the most important part of that. Unless it's a director like someone like Christopher Nolan, who is really bigger than all the stars in terms of what he brings, and we'll come to him in a moment, because I can assure you people will audition for Christopher Nolan if you ask them. I would, if he's listening. Yeah, if he's listening, if you know, we're available. If you're a TV actor, you might be offered only for a cameo. So you're going to be just a guest star in one week's episode of a series, or you're going to even maybe have a, I don't know, three episode arc, then you will be

offer only if you're a name. And they'll want to get it, and you'll like it because it's quite a short job and what have you. So what happens if you're someone like Denzel and you're doing a movie? Then the casting director will make a list of people who are available for maybe the co-star role or the supporting actor roles. And the further you get down the list, the further away you get from offer only. And most people are going to have to send something in. And by the way, there are a lot of actors who say that, or their agent will say they're offer only. But as I say, Christopher Nolan's asking you to read for something, you will do it. Also, by the way, if someone says Denzel is doing this film and we're looking for Denzel's

wife or Denzel's sidekick, you go, I will read for that. I will read for that because I want to work with that person. As I say, offer only for a guest star, but not for a co-star or whatever it is. Even A-listers have to do chemistry reads. So if you've got two romantic leads, they will have to do a chemistry read. And a chemistry read is exactly what it sounds like, which is how do these two bounce off each other? How do they look together on screen? How do they interact off screen as well? Film can take a very, very long time. But it is that weird thing that you can be sitting and talking to two people in a room and then you look through the camera and you go, oh, that's not buying it.

Yeah, it just doesn't, for some reason, it doesn't work. But even obviously when you're offer only, you will have a meeting, Denzel will have many meetings before he agrees to be in the film, and maybe before they formally tell him that it's all going ahead. Over the years, you can read so many interviews of people who say, I wanted that part so much.

Travolta was offered that part, Vincent Vega, without an audition. But Bruce Willis, who was riding far higher than Travolta at that time, so wanted it. He wanted that particular part. He auditioned for that. Now Jodie Foster, in Silence of the Lambs, Jonathan Demme really wanted Michelle Pfeiffer to be Clarice Starling in Silence of the Lambs. Jodie Foster had been a star since she was quite literally a child and had no need to audition for that, but really wanted it so much and did. As I say, Christopher Nolan is a prime example now of someone who people are so

keen to work with that they will do things. I actually, recently speaking, saw some tapings of some huge actors recently, and all of those people do not do auditions supposedly, I would be offer only and all of them, I saw the tapings of all of them for, then they were effectively auditioning. So it's a kind of imprecise answer. But also with the Christopher Nolan type thing, you can audition for him because even if you

are not right for this one, you just want to be in the room with him, get on with him, show him your chops and you know for future reference, you might just think, oh, actually, that person, I really liked when they were in the room. And actually, this role wasn't right for them. But this is, I'm always amazed by how few just offer-onis there are. Even in British TV or something, you get a song to Phil Daniels about it, and he'd just been doing a self-tape for something. But I was like, but hasn't your entire career been an audition? You know what Phil Daniels about it and he'd just been doing a self-tape for something. But I was like, but hasn't your entire career been an audition? You know what Phil Daniels does, does that suit the character that you've got? You've seen him do 50 different things in 50 different ways.

You know who he is and what he does, but they still will self-tape them because why not? But yeah, it's almost always a status thing, which is if you are doing the show or the film a favor, it will often be offer only. If this will be advancing your career in some way or other, then you will audition. It's that kind of very delicate balance, isn't it, of actually I would absolutely love to do this and this would do my career some good, I will audition. Versus that would be a lot of fun, they know I'd be good in it already, then it's an offer.

So yeah, as you say, it's a deeply moveable feast, but I'm always amazed at how many people audition for things. Oh, yeah, even if they say they don't. Here's a good one for you, Richard, from Courtney Shembury Gray. I keep hearing about the TV networks supposedly running out of money, but it strikes me as untruthful. How can they be so poor when the BBC takes a license fee from millions of people in the country? I mean, there's some truth in that, but that's like anything, isn't it? It's like the prison service. You think, why is the prison service so run down when they take tax money from everyone in the country?

I mean, some things are very, very expensive. TV is definitely one of them. You have to take a view as to whether you get more from the television industry than... Mass incarceration. ...than it takes out. It's weird how those two worlds, BBC and Mass Incarceration, have really crossed over in recent years. So yeah, I think TV is very expensive.

It has large capital set up funds, big teams who have to make it. So it does cost a lot of money. With the BBC, they've taken constant real-terms cuts because of inflation and various other things like that. And they had co-production money. There were so many co-productions on Bridgetep, which by the way, was itself a journey in the sense that in the old days, they could afford to put on all their own drama and comedy and what have you. And then it became very expensive, but then suddenly there was all this money coming in from the streamers who wanted to do co-productions in order to build their libraries and to get

that sort of exposure. And now there is do co-productions in order to build their libraries and to get that sort of exposure There is no co-production money and they can't afford to do so many of the things they want to do There's so many things on the BBC slate that would be sort of half They're half funded there the BBC is half funded and they don't have co-production money anymore And how do you mean by that? They don't have co-production money in there because they're not going to do any more deals with Netflix They're not going to do any more deals with Netflix. They're not going to do any more with HBO. You know, something like I May Destroy You, which is HBO and the BBC.

Or lots of other different things. They had lots of these arrangements and those are now gone. Yeah, but they do. They do do co-productio- you know, BBC studios will do co-productions and get money from elsewhere. But yeah, in terms of other platforms. So yeah, I think the basic point is there's an awful lot of things that are funded by all of us, none of which have enough money. So the BBC's basic annual budget is somewhere around just over five billion and about 65% of that comes from license fee, the rest comes from commercial activities and selling shows

and what have you. So that's what they're working with and it sounds like an awful lot of money, but then if you think about what it is that they do with that money it soon kind of gets apportioned out. Television is incredibly expensive to do. I know people say look at how many people they're sending to Glastonbury and this that the other. By and large the one's cloth is cut very close to the bone. Can a cloth be cut very close to the bone? I think it. You know what I mean though. And so if it sounds like something's overstaffed it's because you don't understand how complicated

it is to put on. I think it's definitely an argument that in the past the BBC maybe had more money than it knew what to do with. I think that is definitely the case. That's a long past. That is long past. If you look at stuff like the World Service, which used to be paid for by the Department of International Development, Foreign Office, whatever it was, their arrangement. And then suddenly it was all for the BBC to fund, and now the government have put in some money.

But this is a sort of huge and amazing instrument of soft power that, in my view, we should fund double. It's so little money when you look at the big sums they're talking about. If you doubled it, someone like Peter Basilej, who was saying recently, why don't we just double it? It's another sort of 80 million pounds, which in terms of government sums is absolutely nothing and it's such a huge sort of influence across the world and would make so much sense. That's a real investment in soft power Britain and yet the BBC is expected to come up with

it and because things have become more expensive, it just means it's going to have to cut things. Yeah. Listen, we all know how much it is to fill potholes and because things have become more expensive, it just means it's going to have to cut things. Yeah, listen, we all know how much it is to fill potholes and we all think that should be done and you know, the BBC fills cultural potholes I think up and down the country. 100% get it that if the BBC doesn't work for you or there's nothing on there for you, then why would you pay it? But I feel that we've been very open about this on the show many times that we feel that the BBC is a net positive for the country. I never talk about the BBC because obviously

they pay me to do House of Games, so I feel I'm compromised. The BBC is trying to do local radio, local news, big prime time mainstream shows, dramas, sitcoms, all of those things. It can do far fewer than it used to because it does have in real terms an awful lot less money. Yeah, it is not at a stage anymore where it is frittering money away I would say, but television happens to be very, very, very expensive. So if you want to be in that game, and I would say as a country probably do want to be in that game, that's what it costs. In fact it should cost an awful lot more.

Right, after this break that we're about to go to, we're going to talk about why books smell like they do. Listen, we've got range. Yeah, huge range. See you after the break. This episode is brought to you by Sky Cinema, the ultimate destination for movie lovers to enjoy the latest blockbusters, with Paramount Plus included at no extra cost. Now, Anora, this year's best picture winner at the Oscars, has just landed on Sky Cinema. If you haven't seen it, it follows a Brooklyn dancer, a Russian oligarch family, and a Cold War with the in-laws. It's sharp, it's stylish, with five Oscars to prove it.

Add Twisters and Wild Robot to the mix, and Sky Cinema doesn't just offer films, it premieres them straight to your living room. Paramount Plus, as Marina said, included with your subscription at no extra cost, bringing you blockbuster movies, new originals and hit shows. The full series of Mobland is available to stream now as well as exclusive blockbusters like Gladiator 2 that's on there. Plus, enjoy hit series like Lionesses and Landman, which I love, exclusively on Paramount Plus. One subscription and suddenly you're choosing between Tgas, turf wars and tornadoes. Search Sky Cinema to find out more. Paramount Plus basic, with ads included for Sky TV customers, with Sky Cinema only.

Our friends at Sky, proud partners of The Rest is Entertainment, have made it easier than ever to find something worth watching. All you have to do is ask. And this June, it's all about pride and cultural icons. Just say pride into your Sky Remote and you'll unlock a collection that's bold, brilliant and bursting with LGBTQ plus stories from cult classics to cultural milestones. There's joy, there's defiance, there's a lot of great hair and a few heartbreakers too. Here's what made it onto our personal pride playlists. What would make it onto your list, Marina? I really want to... I love Heartstopper so much, but I'm going to, I think I'm just going to

say a movie because there's breadth, there's breadth there. And I'm going to talk about Queer, Luca Guadagnino's movie, which is loosely based on William Burroughs' memoir and Daniel Craig's in it. And it's set in post-war, he's an American expat living in post-war Mexico City. There's a whole wild kind of vision quest involving Ayahuasca and there's that. And there's a bit where he's walking back from the bar to the hotel and it's Nirvana, Come As You Are.

And I've actually never heard that song in that way. It made me rethink of it completely differently, but it's brilliant. I really, I mean, he's fantastic in it, Daniel Craig. And the whole film is a kind of dreamy, very odd but brilliant, very kind of compelling watch. I am going to recommend an amazing sitcom. I think it was the best sitcom of last year.

It was on Disney Plus and it's called The English Teacher. It's Brian Jordan Alvarez and he is an English teacher. He's an out gay man and he's working essentially in a high school in Texas and With the you know some of these 11 tales with all that entails But it's one of those sitcoms just when you're despairing of ever seeing a great sitcom again The English teacher came along and it just takes the world on in such an interesting way and such a unique way and it's such a 2025 way that you know, why have I not seen this character before? I feel like I've seen a show set in a high school. I feel like I've seen wacky

teachers and kids who are bored and always on their phones, but it's done in such a way and the jokes are done so brilliantly that you just think, thank goodness for this. Brian Jordan Alvarez writes it, stars in it as well as Evan Marquez, who's the titular English teacher of the piece. But it's just brilliantly funny and most importantly, it's just absolutely full of jokes. Okay, well, there's no question that It's a Sin would make it onto my list, which is Russell T. Davies' brilliant drama about the AIDS crisis told through the group of young friends in the 80s. Obviously this story has got so much tragedy in it. I don't think anyone

writes friendship and fun like him. There's something about the way he writes it that's so authentic and you really feel like, oh I really want these people to be my friends. I actually went back really recently and watched episode one of it just because I wanted to see how he did it. You know, you take it up well It's like you take it up as a writer. You want to see how a brilliant writer does it literally? I'm you know dismantle it. I thought was absolutely brilliant and you know, as I say, it's completely heartbreaking in lots of ways But there are moments of total levity I mean even there's a bit in a hospital and someone is dying of AIDS and one of the other people in the room says You know, actually he's my boyfriend in this already defined way way and he goes well, yeah, well, I'm not but

The idea you can put any humor into that situation, but it's so real and so brilliant. I just think it's amazing I absolutely loved it's a sin. You've taken that off my playlist that definitely would have been no no no listen that that definitely Would have been run up there So our playlist is it's a sin Queer heart stopstopper and The English Teacher. If anything we've mentioned has piqued your interest, just say pride into your Sky Remote. It's the easiest way to explore the full collection and save your favourites to your own playlist to watch later.

And with cultural landmarks available on Sky like Paris is Burning or Call Me By Your Name, you won't be short of icons to queue up. Welcome back, everybody. Welcome back, everyone. Now, as promised, we're going to be smelling books now, really, because Lola Marshall has asked, my friend and I were discussing how new books seem to vary in smell. Wow. So we were wondering, does an author choose which type of paper to publish their book on? Is the smell of paper a factor that goes into consideration?

It's the only thing for me. That's why I signed with Penguin, because they promised me the smell. I just went to all the different publishing houses, smelt the books, and chose the smell I liked. No, there's a lovely new book smell. We all know that in the same way as a new car smell. We can work out where new car smell comes from. It's kind of leather or kind of furniture polish altogether. But yeah, no, books don't have their own intrinsic smell. You certainly don't choose what the smell of the book. Doesn't come to you in Smell-O-Vision, sadly. It really doesn't. No one is going around the Cedar Forest of Croatia going, this will

make a great Marion Keys. I had a chat to some of the production people at Viking, which my publisher is at Penguin Random House, Sarah Granger, thank you Sarah, and Annie Underwood. And they said a number of things. They quite right to say, there's nothing like opening a new book and smelling that new book smell, but the smell has almost nothing to do with the paper that is chosen. It has all sorts of different things. The paper itself doesn't have a strong smell. Okay, I mean, listen, we never kind of walk into the room and go, what's that smell? And it's like, we've left a piece of paper somewhere.

It's very, very rare. It's made up from a number of organic materials. As it gets older. Old book smell is a thing that people love. I'm quoting here, exactly. The paper decays and emits a range of different smells. So what you're smelling there is decaying paper. Wow, does Gwyneth have a candle of that?

I don't think so. Obviously she do, right? And that depends on the composition of the paper, ink and binding materials used. I had a long chat with my publisher about it as well, and we're talking about why you choose certain papers. The thickness and quality of the paper is absolutely taken into account. Certain papers, you can go to your bookshelves and find that hardbacks and paperbacks and things.

It's just classy, isn't it? There's some classier stuff on there. Some of it is to do with what ink is being used, what font is being used even. Some of it is to do with the length of the book because if a piece of paper is like two micrometers thicker than another piece of paper, actually by the time you got to the end of 400 pages, that's a lot more thickness and you've got to think of the spine of the book and all of that stuff. It has to take ink very well.

It has to be not opaque at all so you don't want to see the next page coming through. American books you'll find are an awful lot floppier than British books. So they- Like their chocolate. Like their chocolate, exactly. Listen, there's certain things America does very well. Chocolate and book paper quality are not two of them. And not two of them. But both Sarah and Annie said, so there's lots and lots of considerations when you're

choosing paper, but smell is definitively not one of them. Often it can be where it was stored and, you know, it can be something in the bookshop or wherever that gives it a certain smell. And they tend to be kind of you'll pack them 25 into a crate and then it'll be in an airtight crate so that often they're sitting in an airtight container for quite some time before they get to the shops. Again, maybe there's something in that. One of the absolute keys now, which I think definitely wasn't the case 20 years ago,

is sustainability because, you know, obviously if you have an audio book or if you have an ebook, there are far fewer environmental concerns, but the book industry uses a lot of paper. It's known for it. And so my books, for example, and I'm not the only one, I haven't been the one going, I have to have sustainability. This is a Penguin Random House and the other publishers. So my paper, if you want to have a little smell of it now, it comes from Sweden, where you get very low carbon-emitting papers used from sustainably managed forests. So, yeah, all my paper, all my paper for the UK

editions, and for most of the European editions as well, is Swedish. None of that American, Mark. Paper. Listen, it's not, Mark. I don't know, actually, I don't know where the Americans get their paper from. They've got a lot of forests over there, so I assume they... Have they tariffed it yet. They've tariffed pulp. Tree tariffs. Yeah. We'll look into where America get that. If they tariff pulp, that's bad news for the book industry and also for pulp.

Yeah. Yeah. So yeah, there was no such thing really as choosing for smell. The smell comes from environmental factors and it gets more pungent with age. So if you like the smell, just listen. You've just got an easy win there. A very good, very specific question from Claire TP that lots of people want to know the answer to and I suspect you might know it Marina. On an old episode of The Thick of It, the Malcolm Tucker character, Malcolm Tucker, says, no, I don't think they'll run with it because it's libelous, just as libelous as the Hugh Edwards rumour. This was around 2007. Now,

Claire TP asks, did the writers know something or was it just a joke at the time? Did they, and writers in general, have to get permission to make these sorts of jokes from the person they are about? Ah, okay. Well, first of all, you don't ever have to get permission from someone to make a joke about them. I suspected this was the answer, but I checked with Armando Iannucci about this and he says, no, we knew nothing about Hugh Edwards. We picked his name because at the time he seemed like the most squeaky clean face of the BBC. And it was going to be either him or Attenborough,

but they figured that Malcolm would pick a news guy when he was making his joke. So he said the only time they were challenged by the BBC lawyer was when Malcolm is scripted as saying it's inevitable, as inevitable as what they'll find in Jimmy Savile's cellar after he's died. And they said, oh no, Jimmy Savile's incredibly litigious. Remember, he was still alive at the time. Armando said, well, we're not saying what's in his cellar, and maybe it's just some old cement and a broken vacuum cleaner, but they would not allow it to be run.

I think, first of all, as someone who writes things, occasionally I'll get a call from a comment desk at the Guardian when I file my column and they'll say, when you're saying this, is it because you know something about this person? And I will almost always say if it's not clear what I'm saying, then no, the only reason I'm making that joke is because either this person is completely the last person you would think of this. So it's a funny cultural reference. Or it's about something, yeah, or it's about something because implication, if you imply heavily enough, then it is libelous and you can't defend it in court. It's quite obvious

to anyone what you're saying. And so that's the case here. I mean, it's quite interesting thinking about the Hugh Edwards story and what was known and what wasn't. And I think when the first lot of the story came out, many people were saying, oh, look, you've driven this man into to seek help for mental health and all this sort of thing and you've done something. But actually as it turned out, and The Sun were under a real pressure for people saying you shouldn't have run this. But as it turned out, the reason that they were pretty confident with their story is

that they had something called the, I don't know, someone told me about this, which is the over the years file at the Sun. Now, when people ring in, some new stories come because you've got a tip off and then you investigate it and whatever, but a lot of stories come in as ring ins and they always have done. So that's just a member of the public? That's a member of the public just ringing in. And some of the biggest stories, the biggest scoops have actually just come from ring ins. And obviously you have to still follow it and you have to stand it up, which means you must make it legally defensible and you must be able to print what you have. And after this story about Hugh

Edwards paying somebody at a station came up and the sons thought, let's just have a look in the over the years file. And they found that over the years, they'd logged but not done anything, because also people ring them with ridiculous tips, saying, I mean, honestly, like I've just seen Elvis down at the supermarket, whatever it is. So, but they do- Someone saw Elvis at the supermarket,

I thought he was dead. Are you saying he was alive? Yeah, well, I mean, you know, he'll be in the over the years file. In the over the years file, you know. No, but tell me, what was he doing? What aisle was he in? Okay, okay.

And you're absolutely definitely sure it was Elvis. Listen, I used to. You're a huge Elvis Costello fan, it was definitely him. Okay, this is less interesting story than I thought it was gonna be. Well, I used to answer the phone on the showbiz desk at the time. It's so long ago, like, you know,

actually in the last century now, but you get the most extraordinary ring in and lots of them were complete nonsense. Having said that, they developed a system of logging them and as it turned out when they had a good look into the over the years file, there were many incidents of people ringing about stuff about Hugh Edwards, but either it had seemed almost on the par of what was being seen in the supermarket at the time or whatever, but there was a lot more so Obviously doesn't you're not able to stand out probably those people no longer have that number

But the volume of it suggested a pattern like like when different police forces Finally got all of their information together and you were able to cross-check that five different people Oh, he's done it in 37 different places in the UK Yeah, so there is that but in terms of making jokes about those sort of things to bring it back to the question, either make the joke and be quite clear, you know, you've got to be able to stand up the fact that you've made it. There is a humor defense where it doesn't extend to suggesting that someone is a pedophile or has got things hidden in their basement. Although you could say someone's got things in their basement if it's quite obvious that they're just like a weird person

and obviously they haven't got anything hidden in their basement. You know, if you could say that about, I mean, now I'm trying to think of- If it was like Lorraine Kelly. Yeah, you could say, yeah. Well, when it all comes out well, what's in Lorraine's basement. Yeah. Certain things like that, jokes like that can work. But I do sometimes get calls where people say, are you actually implying something specific about this person? Because if you are even if it's veiled it is still the libel. So the basic irony behind it is if it is completely Not true at all. You can do the joke if it might actually be true. You can't do the joke

Yeah, or you'll have to find a very different way of doing the joke And there are lots and lots of ways around this which I could probably think of in specifics Over over the years, but that as we as we do this podcast over the years I think a specific is on but that was that was a pure coincidence a pure coincidence Like Charlie Brooker's national anthem with the with the Prime Minister having sexual relations with a pig Yeah, and people got he must have known. No, he is that, but it's just, it's one of those things. Every now and then life surprises you. Yeah, yeah, it doesn't it just.

Actually, can I finish with one final question, because this is from Gavin Dutton, and lots of people ask us this. I'm not sure if you've covered this before, we haven't Gavin, but I was recently searching for one of my favorite shows, Lovesick, on Netflix, but it's vanished. You can't buy it and you can't stream it. It's like it's been wiped off the face of the internet. What should I do? Why do shows disappear?

You're right. Lots of shows do disappear. And it's interesting. Lots of amazing television from the 80s and 90s is gone. And I know Love Six not from that. Love Six from about 10 years ago, isn't it? But shows that fell into the sort of gap between what we might call physical and digital. So they just don't really exist in any way anymore. A huge amount of the reason that shows don't exist anymore and you can't really get them on any of the streaming services or to buy on Prime, which are lots of shows that you can't get anywhere else, you can nonetheless pay to buy on Prime.

But I think you're right about Lovesick. A lot of the reason why it happens is because of various rights issues which become complicated after a certain amount of time after a certain broadcast window. And by rights issues, it's normally that you have to pay an awful lot of money to one of the stakeholders in a production. It's almost always music, by the way. Music is bizarre. Music holds up more of these things than ever.

I mean, for a really long time, Barry Levinson, who, you know, Homicide Life on the Street, which is based on that great sort of David Simon book, and they made it and it became a huge series. Barry Levinson just kept saying, I don't understand why we can't get this. That might have been, again, a music rights thing. But that's on now Homicide, isn't it? You now can see that. And by the way, you should. I wonder if you could find Gavin a DVD. I know this is, you're starting to think, well,

I don't have a DVD player but more and more people are getting back into this and so many people we talked before about sound quality on the streamers and the way things have been files have been compressed and different things that affect things lots and lots of people are buying copies hard copies really of their favorite things because they I mean that the whole promise of streaming was that you could watch anything you wanted whenever you wanted. I'm going to look up Lovesick DVD as you're talking. I wonder whether you can, well there's that Dudley Moore movie isn't there in Lovesick, you might get lots of that but you might be able to find, I mean I would have thought

because so many things are still issued on DVD and Disney took a huge amount of Disney stuff off. Yeah, listen we can get the movie, we can get the Dudley Moore off. Yeah, listen, we can get the movie. We can get the Dudley Moore movie. Yeah, can you get the? You cannot get the series, but you can get on Apple. Oh, that's good. There you go, that's nice and easy.

That's all that. I mean, you have to pay, but. As I say, it's mostly music rights. Sometimes, depending on who it was originally with, it saves paying residuals, or you can use it as a tax write-off. So some shows have disappeared. It's amazing, there are fan communities absolutely dedicated

saying, why can't we have this? And as you can see, it goes all the way up to someone like Barry Levinson saying, we need to make this work. I don't understand why this isn't working. And then lo and behold, it does become available. But almost always it's right. Thank you, Marina. Thank you everyone for your wonderful questions.

We will see everyone, or members at least, tomorrow for our summer reading recommendations. That'll be a bonus episode, and otherwise we'll see everyone next Tuesday. See you next Tuesday. Hi there, Rory Stewart here from The Rest Is Politics. I just wanted to tell you that we have now released the first episode of our mini-series on the real JD Vance. Here's a clip. If Donald Trump dropped dead, this guy is automatically president. How he has become what he's become from this background. I'm sitting in the back of this police cruiser.

They've just arrested my mom. The relief of having survived another day. This is a story about something which we don't often talk about in America, which is class. Trump, I think that he's leading the white working class to a very dark place. I'm a never Trump guy. I never liked him. But in the end, the main thing you need to understand about JD Gantz is given the choice between his intellectual statements and power, he chooses power every time. I was wrong about Donald Trump. We're seeing migrants kidnap our dogs and cats. He needs to prove absolute loyalty.

I think the election was stolen from Trump. But there's a bigger story, which is the story about this whole all-right movement. Vance does not exist, really, without Teal, either financially or politically. Because this guy believes that America should be led by a monarch, which, of course, Trump believes as well. He sees him, frankly, as a future king, because he says Vance can tell the story of America. And in doing so, he crosses the cusp into a whole new vision of the world at the centre, which is not democracy, but the CEO, the authoritarian, the monarch.

You can hear episode one right now. Just search The Rest is Politics wherever you get your podcasts. This episode of The Rest is Entertainment was brought to you by Sky, who've made watching TV feel effortlessly smart. Just use voice control and ask Sky what you want to watch. It's so quick that before you found your snacks, you were already halfway through a series. It's basically TV with a sixth sense. Say, show me crime dramas and suddenly you've got three new obsessions, a reason to cancel plans and a lead detective you inexplicably trust with

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