The Rest Is Entertainment - Plagiarism, Puns and Lego

Episode Date: December 11, 2025

How do toy companies prepare sets before a film or TV show is even released? What was Tom Daly’s “Game of Wool” nearly called? Why has Apple TV's 'The Hunt' been pulled from the streaming giant? Richard Osman and Marina Hyde answer your questions, covering bad puns, plagiarism, and Lego sets. The Rest Is Entertainment Live: General sale open now. Find out more at southbankcentre.co.uk Whether you’re hosting or guesting this Christmas, you need the UK’s best mobile network and broadband technology, only from EE. Shop Tesco food this Christmas, either in-store or online. Join The Rest Is Entertainment Club: Unlock the full experience of the show – with exclusive bonus content, ad-free listening, early access to Q&A episodes, access to our newsletter archive, discounted book prices with our partners at Coles Books, early ticket access to live events, and access to our chat community. Sign up directly at therestisentertainment.com For more Goalhanger Podcasts, head to www.goalhanger.com Video Editor: Imee Marriott Assistant Producer: Imee Marriott Senior Producer: Joey McCarthy Social Producer: Bex Tyrrell Exec Producer: Neil Fearn Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

This episode is presented by E.E. Marina, are you hosting or guesting for Christmas this year? Normally, every other year I am a very grateful guest, but I'm now a slightly trepidacious host. Yes, it is me in the apron having a meltdown over all the cooking. No, I don't think I'll have a meltdown. It's a lot, isn't it? Yeah. But you have to just keep saying to yourself, it's just a big chicken. Just a big chicken.

It's just a really big chicken. It's just a really enormous chicken. We are also hosting this year, looking forward to it very much. If you are hosting, and E.E. has the best broadband technology. If you are guesting, then E.E has the best mobile technology. And my goodness, you need it at Christmas, right? Yes, the third babysitter, the distractor. Just when the family walk into the house is, hello grandma, hello granddad. What's the Wi-Fi password?

I might need that. Yeah. Get the best connectivity for your home and your phone with EE. And if you're guesting, lucky you, E.E has the best mobile network to keep you. you connected to music, maps and backseat streaming for the kids when you're traveling. Search EEE does more. Hello and welcome to this episode of Restis Entertainment Questions and Answers Edition. I'm Marina.

I'm Richard Asman. Hello, Marina. Hello, Richard. How are you? I'm okay. Now, last week I asked a question of my own and, sorry, straight in. Yeah. No, no, no.

Yeah. Wow. Have you done something with your hair? Yeah. Because you should I washed it and that's enough Last week I asked a question Of our listeners

Because the John Lewis advert The you know where love is The rave dad And as quite so often with adverts actually There is no information anywhere As to who played raved dad You can't find it anywhere So I was like what's going on?

What if something is going on here So I put out the challenge to our listeners And they came back in droves So thank you. I'm going to tell you in one second that you've been trumped, but thank you everyone who came back and who had identified Roberto Davide, who is an Italian-American actor. Lots of you said, we just saw him in BBC civilizations rise and fall.

They saw him in. So I was going to read out lots of people's names, say thank you for doing that. But then who gets in touch, but Roberto Davide himself. Chief among the droves. Exactly. So I'm afraid, listen, listeners, you get it, right? Raved Dad himself has written in. So we have to read out his instead of yours. You get it. If you were Raved Dad, I'd be reading yours out, I promise. He is a listener in fairness. Yes, he says, hello, Richard Marina. I was listening to your podcast episode. Will Wicked 2 help Hollywood Defy Gravity? I was pleasantly surprised to hear you mention the John Lewis ad. You asked about the actor who played the dad, and I wanted to reach out because it is me. I really appreciate the kind words. I thought I'd share a little bit more about the experience. He said, it's talking about it's four days. He says, it's almost. intense. And what I hadn't thought, he's quite right. There's a lot going on in that advert and a lot of emotion in that advert, but no lines. So everything is literally done in those looks between him and the other actors. But Roberto, thank you so much. I'm glad that you're a real

human being. I'm glad that everyone saw you in the BBC Civilisations thing as well. And to our wonderful listeners, thank you so much for sending it in, but you do understand that when ravedad calls, we answer. Shall we get on with today's questions? Yes, please. Give me a question. I have one for you here, and it is from Henry Longstaff, Henry Longstaff. One of the merry men. One of the merry men, exactly. Henry Longstaff, who is from the 15th century, asks us, yay verily, starts Henry Longstaff, he doesn't at all.

He actually starts, I've heard Apple TV, you think that's something that's Shakespeare wouldn't have written, says, I've heard Apple TV have pulled the show The Hunt, after it has emerged that it may be plagiarized from another novel. How did it get this far? Oh my God, I'm so glad that somebody asked, about this because it's a wild story. I don't know if anyone's seen it, you've seen it, but anyway, just to sort of summarise. Apple TV have this new show, which was about to, which was going to come out last week.

It's French. It's made by the producers Go-Mont, but for Apple. Or POM, as they call it in France. Yeah, for POM Plus. The synopsis is a group of friends go hunting and when they're out in the forest or wherever, they become aware of another group of hunters. And one of them is, shot deliberately, they think, by one of the other groups of hunters. But for whatever reason, I guess we would have got into it. They decide not to say anything a little bit like deliverance. And they, you know, they return to their normal lives.

But then they become aware that they sense that they're being watched and perhaps hunted back in their normal lives. Okay, and it's a thriller. And as you say, it's called The Hunt. A French journalist alleged that it was a direct adaptation of a novel called Shoot by Douglas Fairburn, published in 1973. Not only that, it was, that but was adapted into a movie called Shoot starring Ernest Borgnan and Cliff Robertson in 1976 and Douglas Fairbain, the author, got credit on that. The book was translated into French in the 1970s and called La Trac, The Hunt.

No. Yes, no, no, listen. So can you believe it? But the current version of The Hunt, the show that was all ready to go and be aired and everything, imminently, was created. written and directed by a guy called Cedric Ongare. And Apple have now completely pulled it. So that does suggest there's quite a serious case to answer here. Now, the law on this is relatively, you know, interesting in some ways,

is that there's no sort of IP protection of a summary of a story. You might be able to have a case for it. Under American law, you can have a case for anything. Interesting, under French law, moral rights to work exist in law. So it seems that what has happened is that he has not told them this is based on, and Douglas Fairbant, I don't know, I had a kind of look at him because I was so interested by this story. He obviously had some success. He's now dead. He's been dead since the 90s, I think. But maybe these were kind of airport novels. I don't know. But it's not like they were the biggest thing on the, you know, you're like saying, hey, I've just had this idea about a shark that gets, you know. So they've had to pull this completely because they obviously don't have the rights to it. First of all, the question is, what do they do now? They've made it now, which is very, very expensive. So they're going to have to license that book from the author's estate. For me, they should do that because the cost. of making this thing.

But, okay, it's great news for the author's relatives. Yeah, because maybe, I mean, really. Luckily, you are dealing with the computer companies, I like to call Apple. So you are dealing with one of the three biggest companies in the world, and it doesn't really matter how much any of that television costs because it's just a... They have money, right? I've heard they've have some money, yeah. I heard they have some money.

But in terms of, so Gomorne was the French producers who have made this. Apple will have an indemnity clause against Goaumor, who perhaps in this case failed to do because they would have bought them to develop concept and then Apple would have agreed to make it. Yeah, it's supposed to do due diligence. Though it's quite hard to neck-check something like that

because you have to, I mean, if someone is not telling you the truth and it's a 1973 novel and a movie from the 70s, you can't sort of check everything that's ever happened everywhere. Or can't you? Because I'm afraid my ultimate conclusion of this

is that this is a role at which AI would be very, very good. Oh, yeah, finally. Because if you do want to try and check everything, I mean, actually, I have to say that this is not, like, the most obscure thing, given it's already been adapted. Oh, yeah, for sure.

It's essentially called The Hunt in French. And anyway, but AI would be good. It is very difficult. And there are always these kind of rights cases. There's one with Top Gun. Do you remember, like a lot of those things, a lot of those kind of movies around that time, they would be based on some kind of in-depth American magazine article

and someone had written an article about Miramar, the Top Gun School. And I can't remember whether it was Don Simpson or Brookheim or someone else at Paramount maybe had read that and said, I'd love a movie based on this. This sounds really cool. Lots of things we're interested in. And actually when they came to make Top Gun Maverick, by that stage, the rights of the guy who'd written it,

the rights of that original magazine article had reverted back to the family. And they said, oh, well, you couldn't have had this movie without the first movie. So effectively there is a kind of chain of rights stretching from that original article and you should have paid us. I can't remember they sued for some kind of crazy amount of money. That was actually thrown out. But this one clearly they regard it as a big issue. And it would be really interesting to see where it goes.

But it is an amazing, you know, let's say, Sidrick Ongier. Yeah. I mean, if he didn't know, it's very, very, very unfortunate. Oh, you knew, but you forgot. And you think you had the idea yourself. I've ended up sometimes thinking, oh, that's a fun joke. And then I thought, it just does ring a bell. And then you're like, oh, I've written that joke three years ago.

You know, a lot of creators will say, oh, I thought I'd had this brilliant idea. And I actually just realized I'd already seen it. And it was completely... It's like in The Simpsons where Principal Skinner, I think, is writing essentially Jurassic Park. And everyone's going, literally the whole episode is people are going, I mean, it's a movie. It was a really big movie. I mean, you've really never heard of it. So it's like that.

But anyway, it'll be interesting to see where that one goes. And it's obviously quite a dramatic thing to have happened. But, yeah, thank you for asking about that, Henry Longstop. And the head of Apple TV, of course, is Jay Hunt. So hold on a minute. Ah, yeah, Apple TV in the UK. I don't think, I mean, she'll be getting straight in touch, so she got nothing to do with the French operation.

She'd never have made this mistake. Because her name is Hunt. Yeah, yes. I understood that part of it. But I just wanted to be very clear, in legally, since we are talking about Jay Hunt has no rights to this mistake. She does not hold the rights to this mistake. Although there was an executive in 1973 called Jay Shoot, so has she ripped herself off.

Let's get the old yarn wall out because we need to get to the bottom of this. But okay, thank you very much for that question. This next question comes from Jonathan, no surname, but actually this question is iconic, so it probably doesn't require one. Tom Daly's Game of Wall clearly has a pun-based name, but I don't understand it says Jonathan, well, join the knitting circle. Is it meant to be a play on Game of Thrones? If so, this seems to miss the point of a play on words as wool has no alliterative, semantic or syllabic link to thrones. How did this happen? Listen, I absolutely agree with you, Jonathan, and I've tried to go as deep as I can into this conspiracy.

I mean, sometimes names just come about and just get attached to things. The only way it's Essex. Sometimes the Haig has too much on their plate to handle this kind of a war crime. Exactly. But it is unforgivable, yes. So I deal with it instead. So I talked to a brilliant producer called Jophe Wilson And I just I spoke to Jophe years ago

Because he made a show This is one of my favourite ever sleeper hits Which is your home made perfect Which is Angela Scanlon Two architects look at your house And do like a VR version of it So you're sort of inside the house And it's just one of those shows

That should have been formulate But was just made brilliantly So I've always loved Jop's work Anyway so Jop is making this game of wool And it's a big hit so let's say that and it's just a name that stuck

everyone didn't know what to call it I talked to another wonderful gentleman called Matt Hume who is a writer and writes on loads of things eight out of ten cats and millions of things Matt for many years wrote some Xander's intros to me on Point this when he goes

he's the man who blah blah blah so Matt would do that I talked to Matt he said they sat around and they were trying to think of a pun title and there's millions of them. In the end, they just go, you know what, let's just not do a pun title.

But, you know, Game of War was one of those ones that was out there, which obviously isn't a pun. But they go, you know what, it's actually quite a good name. It's actually quite a good name. So I think they're aware it is not a pun. Oh, that's good. Yes. But I think they thought,

and also, if it was a pun that was too close to it, they also might not be able to use it because it would be passing off. So they're aware it's not a pun, but it came out of a meeting where they were trying to think of puns, if that makes sense. That would be my favorite type of

meeting the only meeting actually I would ever want to attend it's like I want that came up with the we're trying to do something with Frankie Boyle and I said what you know something live I said well why don't we call it the ball variety performance and you think great done sold in the room so it comes out of a meeting where they're talking about puns Matt Hume says to me his two favourites of his where knit happens it's a perfectly good perfectly good pie I like that yeah but how about this watch out needles about Watch out needles about... I mean, that catchphrase, which is a Jeremy Beedle thing...

I mean, it kind of died before Tom Daly was born. Yes, exactly. So, oh, you couldn't use it. No. But that's the thing. So they are sitting in a room as I've done so many times before, coming up with puns. And in the end I go, well, let's not call it a pun. But at some point, the name Game of Wall had come out there.

And everyone's going, well, it's a game. And it's about wool. And I think they're very aware as well that people are like, sorry, why is it called Game of Wool? And the fact of it is made by a brilliant program maker. You're talking about it, aren't you? It's made very, very well as well. It's got great talent behind it, and it's doing really, really good business. So it is not a story of absolute incompetence that people can't do puns.

It's a story of a group of very good program makers going, do you know what? Let's just call it Game of Wool. But to think it could have been called Watch Out Needles about. I mean, I love Knit Happens. I have to say. Yeah, and it happens is good. If it gets so big that they need a, you know, after show, then they can use what those maybe. Game of all. it happens. Yeah, that's very, very good. So yeah, it's a slightly disappointing answer,

which is, which is not, it has been chosen by lunatics. I'm terrible, I've always been terrible with titles, with show ties. I've never, ever been able to do it. Oh, because the Boyle Variety show is rubbish. I mean, no, I don't think that's true, Richard. I don't think you are bad. I can do puns and then think of the show afterwards. That I can do. But when a show comes out, you think, I just need the total, the perfect title. The point was a, was a, was a great, which was not mine. That's a great. That is a brilliant title because it's you just think oh this show which seems incomprehensible but you've given a name that makes sense to me so yeah game of world it's just one of those things and in 20 years time

when they're on season 20 it will just seem game of wool will seem it's like whose line is it anyway so whose line is it anyway which is which is a pun on the american movie whose life is it anyway okay which which of those is more famous now yeah oh yes whose line is it anyway and now there are lots are things that are pun versions of whose line is it anyway. Because whose line anyway is a very, very bad pun on whose life is it anyway. Now, whose line is it anyway is the bigger thing.

And yes, as you say, at some point in the next 20 years, Game of Wool will inexorably rise higher than Game of Thrones and be a bigger franchise, making sort of $40 million and then everyone would be like Game of Something else. Or other things of wool.

Frame of wool. Yeah. Yeah. Blame of wool, who stole my sheep. There you go, blame of wool. Blame of all is brilliant. I think it might be time for us to go into some adverts. Game of adverts. This episode is brought to you by Apple Pay.

Now, Christmas can be, I would say, a logistical Sudoku when it comes to shopping. I'm assuming, Marina, that you have some sort of spreadsheet. Well, I never used to be organised, but since I have had children, I've become very organized. I have the same file every year with all the many people. I have to buy presents for Godchildren, friends, all the different ones. For those of us who are less organised, say, than you... Exactly. Apple Pay can make all of these things so much easier. Buying in store, buying online as well, safely and securely accepted in millions and millions of stores,

plus all your favourite websites and apps. And it is all completely secure, isn't it? Absolutely. Purchases there require face ID, touch ID or a passcode. So your security is right in your hands, plus Apple Pay keeps your purchases private. even from Apple so there is no chance of gifts being ruined. This holiday pay the Apple Way, online and in store. Search Apple Pay to learn

more. This Christmas, we're partnering with Tesco. It's that sacred moment of the day. The dinner's done. The stockings are a distant memory and the leftovers are already being negotiated so the annual battle for the remote begins. Someone wants the royal speech. Somebody, me usually, wants to watch a quiz show.

Someone has already lined up, die hard and yet somehow it all seems to come together. So the question is, how do we ever agree what to watch at Christmas. I mean, not to jump in here. Yeah. I have a genuine system for this. Do you know what you surprise me? Okay. I can't explain this to you clearly enough. Obtain the listings well in advance of the day. So one way or another. Do you mean the TV listings? Yes. I mean obtain the TV listings one way or another before, yeah, okay, it doesn't matter how you do it. You can do it on your phone, but obtain it. Then if I'm watching live things,

I will insist that we build a shed. I will say, tell you what, tell you what, we have to watch Wallace and Gromit, okay. And then instead of having the scrolling, which I really genuinely can't stand. And if you're having a food coma and you're scrolling, that's not a festive feeling at all. So then I'll be like, okay, I've already thought of what then one hour comedy we're proceeding to, then we're doing this. And I'd like to build it like that. And in a lot of ways, it actually reminds me of what I like to do with the food I'm eating at that particular time on Christmas evening. Because, okay, Christmas lunch, I love it. A lot of people don't, but I love it. but it happens in a certain way and it's certain things

okay once you get to Christmas supper and my mother's just put everything on the table and say make your own sandwiches then everyone is taking the little bits like essentially out of the food schedule that you want so you're building something for you're having your sandwich there's a lot of chutneys, there's hot sauces this is exactly what you're doing with the food

do the food with the food what you do with the television make make your own version of it and then everyone will kind of fall in behind you You are aware that your system relies entirely on everyone doing what you have told them to do. Even as you were saying it, were you thinking, no, hold on a minute. So actually, it's a dictatorship. If you live in any sort of democracy, which a lot of families are, I didn't want to break that to you. Then people will walk into the house.

You've got newcomers coming to the house. I can, by all means, say, I think we should watch Wallace and Grommet. But these days, there's always a million things on YouTube that people want to watch as well. There's always things that, you know, people want to play different. Wow. But again. I've just made that rule up just now. I'm such a dictator.

Yeah, I've made that way. But I think in the way that TV used to bring people together, I do think food is the thing now. That's the one thing everyone agrees on on a Christmas day, because everyone wants to watch different things. You don't want to suggest something and then see like a teenage relative just scrolling on their phone because they're not enjoying the thing that you watch.

The one thing that everyone can agree on is we love our Christmas dinner, we love all the bits in the evening. We love the fact that someone's bringing out huge tubs of chocolates as well at the last minute. Everybody loves that. But I think it's increasingly difficult to find something that everyone wants to watch on Christmas Day. And that's why something like Wallace and Grommet or the Gavin and Stacey thing last year. That's why it's so important.

That's why the channels, BBC One, ITV and all these people do throw a lot of money at Christmas because they're aware it's quite difficult to get everyone to watch the same thing. And when you find something, oh my God, that's the dream. It doesn't have to be like absolutely everything, but it can be things like that if you just say, hey, it's Wallace and Gromit, it's 30 minutes, and it's going to be amazing. You've changed your tone now. So how you actually do is say, hey, guys, it's me, Marina. I'm pretty cool.

It's just 30 minutes. It's just Wallace and Gromick, because at the beginning you were like, this is what we're watching. Okay, fine. It's the second, well, I think perhaps the best system of government. And then someone else can choose something. Maybe oligarchy is better than democracy. Sorry, did you say, and then someone else can choose something? It's an oligarchy now.

It's not a dictatorship anymore, but it's an oligarchy. But I'm sort of the Yeltsin of it all. Yeah. It's a marinaocracy. I might. Yeah. That is genuinely the best system of coming. Yeah. Either way, I hope this comes across.

I absolutely love. I love Christmas, because I really do. I can't wait for it. Yeah, I can't wait. I love it. And I love the food the most of all. That's my favourite bit of it all. So maybe the perfect thing to watch isn't on screen at all.

It's the slightly chaotic scene unfolding around it. Something always goes wrong, of course, but that's just part of the story. Tesco gets that, the food, the family, the beautiful mess. That's what makes it Christmas. Shop Tesco food this Christmas, either in store or online. Hack the holidays with the PC holiday insiders report. Try this PC Porquetta, crackling, craveworthy. You gonna eat that?

Who are you? I'm the voice for the next ad, car commercial. But I noticed that show-stopping roast and... Help yourself. Mmm, designed for indulgence. Precision crafted to navigate every corner of my mouth. All for just $18. Okay, okay.

Try the season's hottest flavors from the PC Holiday Insiders Report. Please feast responsibly. welcome back everybody um marina i have a question from sophie also not giving a surname people getting a bit lax again i think maybe just do you think possibly i mean what do you want me to do you know if you're called henry longstaff we're not going to just ignore it so sophy bumhead let's say that's her name but listen but otherwise give you a surname you're right it's not specific let's say bumsted like the old chelsea footballer john bumstead i noticed the new lego sets specific to Wicked for Good

have been released bang-on time for the films released. Do toy companies get early screenings of films and get to choose what they think would work well? How does this work? Oh my goodness. Well, I'm glad you asked this because when I was writing for the franchise the TV show we did about Marvel I ended up doing a lot of

research into how the toys and these things work. Remember that everything changed with Star Wars. When Star Wars came out and that merchandise came out it became so enormous. Marvel merchandise has made more money than the films. Star Wars toys even now generate about $3 billion

a year. It is ridiculous. That's a lot. But people now say of a concept, oh, it's very toyetic. And there are some movies which are really entirely built around the merchandising potential because of all these things. I mean, you know, you have to accept that

we all love Barbie. It was great. But it was a film quite literally made at the behest of a toy company and they let Greta Gourkewig into the Mattel let Greta Gourkewig into the archives and all of that. And obviously she produced something kind of completely left-field and brilliant. But nonetheless, it is a film made for a toy company. And there's a lot more of those coming.

But it does take time. And as I've mentioned before on this podcast, e.g., they did not have any toys for K-pop demon hunters. Now, that was incredibly toyetic to use that kind of grim word. And they didn't have anything because it just takes so long. So it would have made them billions as well. Absolutely billions. They believe me, for the next iteration of that, they will have a huge number of toys. So here's how it works with toy company.

It's in production beyond before there's a film to screen. Two or three years before the film's out, they have discussions. So studios will meet with big toy licences like Lego or Mattel or people who make dolls or play sets or anything like that. And there will definitely not be a finished script. And everyone has to sign an NDA at every single stage of this. And everything digital is watermarks. It's incredibly secretive.

The companies will see confidential pitches. They'll see very, very early, basic. concept art. And at that point, you'll think, okay, I'll negotiate the right to play sets. I think we think this will be worth it for us. That's a bit of a gimmy with Wicked because we already knew this is such a tried and tested property. Okay. So then later on, you'll get the first part of the costume designs, kind of the character sheets, the world building art, maybe if it's a marvel, you know, sketches of the weapons. And they will start the So you're really, really involved from very early on. From so far back. And they'll start

working on very, very rough prototypes and the studios allow it because they just know how long it takes to produce toys. So about a year or 18 months before release, they make digital models of the characters and they start building in like articulation, like is it going to be poseable? Is it going to have a voice element? It's things like that because all of this takes so much time. Eventually then you get to mould engineering. That is a big leak period because then so many more people are involved. And although they are signing NDAs, there are a lot more people involved by that stage. So about a year before release, you know, they haven't even shot it necessarily yet,

but you've got a final script, you've got the storyboards, and you've got pre-vis, and a kind of computer-generated version of your film, so you can see what it looks like. And with these very kind of high-concept films, which have a lot of CDI and a lot of post-production, there's a lot of pre-vis. So at six to nine months, you're close to release,

you've kind of got the studio approval. And then about six months before, all of these dreams really start to become plastic, and they go into production. Everyone, as I say, still has to sign NDAs, but toys are still one of the biggest sources of movie spoilers that there are. In Star Wars episode one, there was a, I think there was a play set, there was a Star Wars play set, and it was called the Final Battle of Quigon Jen versus Darth Moore. So we're like, all right, I guess it dies, right?

People found out that Ray, before episode seven, that Ray had a lightsaber, so you were like, oh, I see. so she's going to be, she's a hero. There's obviously some, she can feel the force. Yeah, and they find it out via a toy. They find it out via the existence of a toy. Episode, some of them are so, like, it's the bathos, it's really extreme. Like, there was a funco pop of Emperor, Emperor Palpatine. So, like, oh my God, he's back, is he?

Yes, we've got a funco pop of Ingrid as, um, as, as, as awkward in Doctor Who. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's so cool. That's on one of our shelves at home. Why have I not seen that? Okay, but I need to take a good look. Like, in no way home, Spider-Man, they did three separate funkopops of all the... You remember the big thing Spider-Man was like all the different worlds, the multiverse.

So there's, you know, Tabe Muguay, Andrew Garfield, and Tom Holland. And because they were three separate funkopops, everyone's like, oh, right, okay. So I got to say that the toys, you've got to be super, super careful. Before it became so honed this process, sometimes people, toy companies would, like, commit to a character that they then discovered died in about the first reels. That's such a cool answer. I had no idea. I ended up doing a lot of research stuff before, so it's... Great to reuse it.

David Sharp says, Richard, you recently mentioned Donna Tart's fantastic novel, The Secret History. Why is it yet to be adapted for film or TV? Yes, it's quite rare that a novel as big as The Secret History would not be adapted. I mean, you occasionally get things like, you know, Gravity's Rainbow or 100 Years of Solitude, which are sort of unfilmable and that's...

Netflix has done it. But, yeah. But secret history, you know, it's... It's very TVetic. It's very TV ethic and, you know, it's kind of gripping and it's, you know, got young, would have a young, good-looking cast and all those things. But it is yet to be made. The history of it is quite sort of long and storied. I mean, it's tough to get anything made, is the truth.

But with something as big as secret history and also as kind of with a story like it's got, you would think that one of the attempts would have worked over the years. The first attempt was quite soon after it came out, Alan J. Pacula, who did all the President's Man, the Paradox, view, all those things. He bought the rights to it, took them to Warner's. And he had Joan Didion and John Gregory Dunn writing a script for it, too, really classy. I mean, he's an amazing, the classy director. That's an, you know, amazing writing duo as well. But then Alan J. Packeter died. And so that went nowhere, essentially, which, you know, is a thing that happens. The next attempt to do it was Gwyneth Paltrow. Gwyneth Paltrow and Jake Paltrow took it to Miramax. I took it to Harvey Weinstein. We talked about Shakespeare in love

very recently when you were talking so movingly about Tom Stoppard and Gwyneth Paltrow obviously had that relationship with Harvey Weinstein. So that was going to go ahead as well, so they went quite a long way down the line. Gwyneth and Jake Paltrow's father then died and various other things happened and

it just sort of fell off the vine. But again, with something like this, people are going to keep trying because everyone would like to see it. That's the point which Donna Tark gets the rights back. Basically, if you're Alan J. Pekular or if you're Gwyneth Peltro and you buy the rights, you get 18 months to make it.

And if you've made, you know, substantial progress during that 18 months, you then get another 18 months. But after a while, the rights will go back to the author. She can then sell them again. So Donna Tart gets the rights back. Then Melissa Rosenberg and Brett Easton Ellis try and make it as a mini-series. So Brett and Eastern Ellis, I mean, they were all at college together. And they were all great.

They were friends. They were part of that, you know, rat pack. And secret history is actually, it's dedicated to Brett Eastern Ellis. You know, they've very close friendship. So they tried to get that off the ground for whatever reason. That didn't happen as well. So we've had three attempts there, three big attempts as well. This is not, you know, people taking a punt.

You know, you've got big names each time trying to make it. And just the law of averages, you think at some point this is going to get made. Then her next, then her third novel, the Goldfinch gets made. And despite, again, having a brilliant group of people behind it, it was a flop. And so I think at that point, Donna Tart thinks, I did not have the control I would have liked over the goldfinch. I feel I've slightly fallen out of love with my stuff being adapted. So she just went cold on the idea.

I don't necessarily need it. I mean, she doesn't need the money. Yeah, exactly. And also, when you've got a novel as successful already a secret history and people are buying the rights, they are paying you an absolute fortune each time. So the Alan J. Peckiller one, the Gwynopatra one, the miniseries one. She's getting a lot of money each time. She'll get a lot more if it gets made, but she was getting a lot of money each time those rights come through. But as you say, after the Goldfinch, she just sort of went cold on the idea.

And, you know, lots of people have tried to get the rights. She still owns them. She's not all that fussed about it. It will get made at some point. I totally agree. I'm absolutely certain. The right people will come along and it will just be the moment. Because, you know, definitively now it kind of adds to the kudos of it.

But, you know, there's no point to her saying yes now to somebody who's sort of... No, to go random. Yeah, it's got to be someone who says, look, this is, I was 14 when this came out. I am now the biggest star in the world, and everyone loves me. Mind if I make your book? I would love to make this book. I would like you to be across the script, so let's do that. So at some point, I'm guessing it will be made.

But, you know, that idea of unfilmable novels, because there's a lot of internal stuff and a lot of complexity, literary complexity in that book. So it might have been one of those ones that they said would be unfilmable, but they can sort of film anything now. You know, Cloud Atlas they filmed, it would say it would be impossible. So a three-body problem you think might be impossible to film. And isn't so...

It's only impossible to watch. Yeah. So it is definitely a thing that everyone would like to watch it. You want to watch an eight-parter. Oh my God, I really want to watch it. So I can't wait for the perfect people. And as you say, it will be, I think, either big or the people who are about to become the biggest stars in the world will be in it. Exactly.

And they have to sit down with Dona Tart. And Dona Tart has to sit across the table for them and go, okay, I get it. I'm in safe hands here. I get I've got the amount of control I would like to have because you're going to get one shot at it. And, you know, she wrote such an incredible debut novel, and it would be crazy not to make a incredible TV series out of it. It's making me want to go and read it again. Yeah. Yeah. Do you have a time for a final quick one?

It'll have to be quick. Yes. Becky Taylor. Hey, Becky. How does renting the jungle in I'm a Celebrity Work? Yes. It is not actually technically a jungle in the classification of these things. I think it's technically classified as a lowland rainforest. It's in New South Wales. They used to, the first series ever, they filmed somewhere quite nearby, but it was a massive, massive hit all those years ago. And they obviously, in the pandemic, they had to do it at that castle in Wales.

But it's actually a dedicated and specially constructed set. It is always the I'm a Celebrity set. It used to be a banana farm. This is obviously more lucrative. No offence to the curved fruit. It works because various countries format, IMA celebrities are set there. So you've got a few in rotation across the year. And ITV studios has the lease on it.

You know, there's a huge number of crew who work on it. Like, honestly, it's an enormous crew. And it's got, you know, a roof over it so that it doesn't, it's not complete washout. So they can't, you know, when it really does get a bit rainforest, they can actually still have a show. Something I quite like about, just a little quirky detail before we sign off on this one, is that the Australian version of it is filmed in South Africa.

I think because it's like, sorry, I mean, this is just part of our, lifestyle. I live here. Yeah, exactly. Sorry, it's going to have to be a little bit more exotic than that. You can't really say what are the greatest privations we could possibly put people through. Except this is somewhere else in New South Wales. Okay. No, so they have, they filmed that version of it in South Africa. But that is the answer to how you Lisa Rainforest. Lisa Rainforest. It would be a great name. If there are any Lisa Rainforest out there or indeed anyone with any other name who would like to send us a question, the address is the rest of entertainment at gollhanger.com. We will be back tomorrow for our members with a special bonus episode about pantomimes. No, we won't. If you want to become a member and have ad-free listening and bonus episodes and so on,

the address is the rest isentatainment.com. Or we will see you next Tuesday. Yeah, we'll see you next Tuesday. See you next Tuesday. Thank you.