The Rest Is Entertainment - Prince Andrew and The Inbetweeners

Episode Date: October 30, 2025

Can Prince Andrew sue the estate of Virginia Giuffre for her posthumously published memoir? Will The Inbetweeners revival still be funny? What are Marina's favourite adverts? Richard Osman and Marina Hyde answer your questions on the world of showbiz, celebrity and more. Join The Rest Is Entertainment Club: Unlock the full experience of the show – with exclusive bonus content, ad-free listening, early access to Q&A episodes, access to our newsletter archive, discounted book prices with our partners at Coles Books, early ticket access to live events, and access to our chat community. Sign up directly at therestisentertainment.com The Rest Is Entertainment is proudly presented by Sky. Sky is home to award-winning shows such as The White Lotus, Gangs of London and The Last of Us. Requires relevant Sky TV and third party subscription(s). Broadband recommended min speed: 30 mbps. 18+. UK, CI, IoM only. To find out more and for full terms and conditions please visit Sky.com For more Goalhanger Podcasts, head to www.goalhanger.com Video Editor: Adam Thornton Senior Producer: Joey McCarthy Social Producer: Bex Tyrrell Exec Producer: Neil Fearn Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

This episode is brought to you by our good friends at Sky. From Small Talk to Sunday lunch, it seems that everyone has a take on the latest shows. With Sky's Essential TV package, you can too. Just £15 a month gets used Sky TV and Netflix together, the programmes everyone's dissecting, quoting or bluffing their way through at dinner. On Sky, you've got the Irish Affair, Atomic and the best from Sky Atlantic on Netflix, there's House of Guinness, Stranger Things and so much more. Series that start conversations more effectively than Rail Strikes or Royal Weddings.

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And I'm Richard Osmond and you are our wonderful listeners and we have a number of your questions. Hi Richard. Sorry. No, I was saying hello to the listeners. Yeah, I know. There are more of them than there are of you. That's like when on point this I used to say, well then if you got that at home rather than well done for getting that Xander. because I figure that, you know, there's only one of the guy.

Come on, hit me with a question. Okay. I have a question from Chris Lindsay. He says, Virginia Dufre's memoir has come out and probably contains allegations that the royal family would prefer weren't to publish, correct? Who gets sued in this hypothetical, posthumous defamation case? This has been a big topic of conversation,

this whole book, for obvious reasons, and the fallout for Prince Andrew, who's actually one of the, only men named in the book, which... And it's had, by the way, very, very good reviews. It's had very, very good reviews and very, very good sales as well. And fantastic sales. Virginia Dufre is one of the victims of Jeffrey Epstein.

She was trafficked by him. And she's famously the 17-year-old runaway girl in a picture which has the Duke of York's arm around her and Jolene Maxwell kind of grinning in the background. Duke of York at the time. Yeah, Duke of York. I'm the erstwhile, Duke of York, and the picture was taken by Geoffrey Epstein. Anyhow, he's made a number of claims about that photo, including that it isn't real. Julian Maxwell said it isn't real.

There's been absolutely zero proof that the photo isn't real. So anyway, the book has a publisher, which is Knopf, which is a division of Penguin Random House. And so it's been published in the book. And these claims, as I say, there's a reason that other men aren't named, and there's a reason you can name Prince, Andrew. And then the first extract of it was run in The Guardian. And it's now all of the fallout of that has been now extremely widely reported. He could sue. Prince Andrew could still sue. And believe me, every single one of these extracts and the book has gone through masses of lawyering. And he could still sue. Normally, you know, you could of course have a claim

against the person who had made the allegations as well as the publisher of those allegations. because you can always pursue an individual themselves. But in this case, Virginia Dufreux, obviously tragically took her own life earlier this year. And so she's no longer around to be the subject of a claim at that. But her publisher could be. During the Noel Clark case, which was won by The Guardian, we talked about the two ways you can defend something

and it's best if you can do it both ways. One, on the basis, it's true. And second, the claims are so significant they have a public interest in publishing them. So you could definitely defend it in this way. the thing with Prince Andrew is it's quite interesting you will still notice that in our press as I always say in America you can write almost what you want

but in our press our libel laws are very difficult you will always see that he's been given a right of reply they haven't replied but it will always say that they've been approached for comment yeah yeah and any single new thing one tiny line from the book if you're rerunning anything and it's a new thing you must go and do the right of reply. But I suppose when you're asking, in the notional defamation case, what is libel? Libel is that someone being able to prove that their reputation has been damaged by the

publication of something. And there's a certain, we've got to a stage with Prince Andrew now where does he have a reputation to defend? And you have to decide that that reputation would have been materially damaged by the thing he's suing on. Also, is he going to sue everybody? I mean, you can't just sue sort of one. If you've, you sort of have to sue everyone. You sort of have to sue everyone who's published. Where would you even start with this one? If that photo hadn't existed, by the way, I don't think this story would ever have taken off in the way that it had. There's something about that photo. You know, she's so young in it. There's something about the existence of that photo that honestly, I think they would have denied everything. It's the

only one, by the way. We don't see lots of photos. We see aerial views of this island of Jeffrey Epstein. We don't see pictures at all. And this, this wasn't taken on his item. This is in London. But it has the main players. But we don't see any pictures from this story and you don't think they exist because I'm I think it's very interesting how he made his money at all because as you always find you know as people always say he didn't trade with anybody all these great big financial people in New York say I don't understand how this guy became so rich because he never traded with anybody hmm I wonder and to be clear well so what are the allegations in the book the allegations in the book are um an expansion and a different form

of writing because before she was making accusations and then this is a memoir she's written with a help of a journalist and so the allegations are that she was required to have sex with him once when that picture was taken in London. She participated in an orgy with him with around eight other girls on the island, on Geoffrey Epstein's island, and there's one other time she had sex with him. And he can issue legal proceedings. However, what is the very special case with this particular person is we know the royal family are against getting involved in any legal proceedings at all,

and they always find a way of not having things come to court. And that goes for when the Queen suddenly remembered a conversation that Paul Barrel had taken lots of giant as things for safekeeping in his attic. Okay. Anyway, that case didn't come to court for whatever reason. And the case of when, in the civil court, when Virginia Dufre had sued the Duke of York, he ended up paying what's always reported as £12 million in damages.

So he continues to deny anything happened at all. We must run that denial within this story of us even talking about this. Did he admit where he got 12 million pounds from? No, he didn't. What's happened over the last couple of weeks with the publication of this book and the massive kind of farming of extracts from it is that people have taken the view in this country particularly rather than the US where, as I say, the rules are different,

that he won't sue because he has already done everything not to get into a courtroom. And by the way, sometimes newspapers will settle. themselves in a case like this, why would you settle with this guy? You want to push it all the way to the courtroom because the chances are he will fold before he ever gets there. How loose the royal family want to cut him is another part of this story. And so they will always try and keep this out of any courtroom. And he would probably want it to keep it out of any courtroom because you're just going

to all these other people, there are other victims coming out now saying that they remember all sorts of different things. And this is what's going to happen. Primarily, though, the law of defamation is about. But someone's reputation being materially damaged by a thing that was published. Can we honestly say that this has made it any worse? Maybe it's made it an infinitesimal part worse. But it was already so bad that the judge would say, well, you don't have a reputation to defend.

And in some cases, this is why people used to get these libel awards of a pound or whatever, because people would say, you were not harmed by the publication. This is just a nonsense. And so I think it would be very, very, very, very difficult for him to win in court. So people have taken the view. However, it remains possible that he could launch proceedings. And in the specific terms of the question, were he to do that? And hypothetically, were he to win damages?

Who would he win those damages against? He'd win them from Knopf, who published the books, they are the publishers, and he'd written them from anyone who published, anyone he sued who published the claims. Sometimes you'll find that claimants will sue one publication because they kind of hate them. And you'll say, but hang on a second. And it also was run by the sun, the this, that, you know. And if they're only a pursuing one, that doesn't look great. They have to kind of go after everyone.

Otherwise, the people are saying, oh, maybe it's just a vendetta against one title. You know, everyone published this story. There is great safety in numbers, obviously. But would there be a liability for Virginia G-Frey's estate? No. For her co-writer? It's the person who publishes is liable, you know, unless it's a tech company, apparently. But if it had been the other way around, so Chris Lindsay was talking about that someone had written a book about somebody

he was dead. Well, you can't libel the dead at all. You can't libel the dead at all. So you could have written anything about her at all now and someone could still do that and you can't do anything about that. You cannot libel the dead. But yeah, but Prince Andrew could sue.

You almost can't libel Prince Andrew is what is probably the conclusion here. It's fascinating to see the amount of titles that get taken off him. It's interesting, isn't it? Because how far do they cut him news? As you say, you want to keep him close enough that he's still relying on you but far enough away that he doesn't reflect on you. Yes, except I think, you know, this is a non-fessional opinion, but I don't think you can. I think the abdication was a mistake and that's not very long ago in the great scheme of the existence of the British royal family and, you know,

whatever it is, 90 years ago, if you're starting to say, or we can swap in personnel, if they don't work out, we don't like them, we sack them, we get some different people in, then you're just like any other business. So do you just say that I still, I believe the abdication was a mistake? Yes, I did. Wow, I didn't think we were going there. Yeah. If you, if no one asked the question do you believe the application was a mistake but there we go i've just given my answer free yes it was thank you dominic sandbrook yeah you're welcome once you allow it to look like something that's just kind of like another business where you get rid of the ones that don't work and bring you you i think if the royal family is weird and special so you have to just keep them all

you have to play play the hand that you're dealt you think so like nearly a hundred years later you think it's still still a big issue no i'm saying that in 400 years time when we don't have a monarchy anymore and people look back at where, you know, where the gate was opened, it would be the abdication. I honestly think if you can replace Martin Fowler twice, you can replace a king. That's huge. I mean, we'll have East Enders still in 400 years time. I can assure you of that fact. Yeah, we'll be on Martin Fowler 17. Right. An extreme shift in tone here as we move to the in-betweeners, Richard. Sean Lamb says, what do you think of this potential in-betweeners reboot? If you were in the writer's room, how would you make it funny?

Yeah, I mean, we read about everything being rebooted every five seconds. The in-between is written by Ian Morrison, Damon Beasley, you've got the four main cast members. If at any point in the next 50 years, those six people want to get together and write the story about those four friends, then I will watch it. Oh, so will I. Because it's brilliantly written by Ian and Damon,

brilliantly acted by those four, all of whom are kind of friends in real life. If, you know, Ian and Damon want to sell the rights to the name in between us and, you know, they want to cast new people, then absolutely all bets are off. It could literally turn into anything. So anytime anything is rebooted, you have to go, has someone just bought the name? In which case, I mean, could be terrible. I mean, who's bought it? If it's the people themselves, I think in this case, Ian and Damon have both said, yeah, we'd absolutely get together with the boys and do something.

I think that how lovely to have a show. I mean, you know, those guys were not 16 when they were making the show. They were older than that. But I think they pulled off looking younger fairly well. They've all gone on to do very, very varied and very, very interesting things in their own right. But how lovely they think maybe every 10, 15 years, forever you can get back together and do stuff and do stuff. You know, you can watch them as old men. And, you know, so I think it's absolutely one.

those things as with any reboot is what do you mean by reboot is it the original people in which case it is not a reboot it's like going from the likely lads to whatever happens to the likely lads both works of genius because it's the same writers it's the same performers and I know they're not at school anymore but that show is not funny because they're at school that show is funny because Ian and Damon are funny but also it can be brilliantly done that if you look at something like the comeback with Lisa codro that the huge gaps between seasons of that it's really interesting sort of what happens. It's, you're not sort of picking up, it's a deliberate huge time jump. I think those things can be really interesting. So it could be brilliant.

You know, I really hope they do it. There's so many books that are intergent, you know, follow the same characters over 50, 60, 70 years, which of course you can't really do so much in film and television. It's much harder to do because of the aging process. But you definitely can do over 10, 20, 30, 40 years. You can definitely do that. But there are six people there, all of whom are making a great deal of money in lots and lots of different ways. The last thing Ian Morris did was that amazing my Oxford year on Netflix, which is like, I mean, it's very, listen, you wouldn't think that that and the in-betweeners were made by the same person. But I think that I would love to see what Ian and Damon did with the In-Betweeners.

And if all four of those boys want to do it, and if the two writers want to do it, then I think we've got an absolute treating story. It won't be set in a school. Okay, just to warn you that, that this, that they have gone beyond that stage. But it'll be about life and it'll be about four people and it'll be about what people do after school and how people who are close friends 10, 15, 20 years ago go and do very different things and then suddenly they're brought back into each other's, you know, orbits. I keep thinking about that, Edgar Wright movie, the world's end.

Yeah. Which is a one vision of how it can, how it can go. Well, anyone who's ever been to, you know, a 15-year reunion from their school and see, the various different paths you can take in your life can immediately see whether comedy comes from there and Ian and Damon will be able to see whether comedy comes from there so I think that to me feels like a piece of very very good news right shall we go to a break Richard?

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Eight episodes already to unravel in one sitting and each one leaves you less certain of the people you think you know best. Watch the brand new series of All Her Fault exclusively on Sky. All episodes available from the 7th of November. Requires relevant Sky TV subscription. Welcome back everyone. Now, can I say thank you. Thank you to Martin Naylor for an amazing segue.

Martin, thank you. I know you didn't realize it was a segue, but we've just come off the adverts and Martin asks, what is your favourite teleadvert of all time? I love this question and... That feels like a whole episode. I thought really hard about this

because I've always been really interested in advertising. I'm afraid I don't think adverts are what they used to be for obvious reasons. There's not so much time. I love that. Adverts are what they used to be. Well, actually, well, by the way, one of mine is obviously the Hovis

1973 advert. Both of mine have directed by Ridley Scott, which I think is interesting, because Ridley Scott was a big commercial director. Listen, honestly 1973 feels like remarkably modern, given your talk of the abdication. I feel like when I'm dragging you towards...

Which is a mistake, and I'll take a TV advert out to say so. Yeah. Abdications. Not for me, thanks, love. Right. Okay, the Hovis advert is... I'm always interested in the stories behind the adverts and why they work and what, you know, I'm a fascinated by David Ogilvie is a kind of person. If you haven't read any of the Ogilvy books,

they're so interesting on how you sell to people. We've talked about them on the podcast before. So the Hovers advert, 1973, which I think it's a collet Dickinson Pierce, and what it does brilliant. Is that an advertising agency? So obviously, either that or solicitors. But what it did brilliantly was it create,

it's the one where, by the way, I don't know any classical music if a set for classical music from the adverts, and that's Vajak. And it's the one where he's pushing, the bike up the hill and it looks like a pit village it's not actually a pit village it's shaft spree in dorset isn't it yeah and it creates nostalgia for a time that either didn't exist or we didn't know it ourselves and that's a really big advertising technique and what David Ogilvie the master of advertising would say is what was great is it drove a huge

increase in sales that's what it has to be it's about did it actually sell things and if it doesn't and it's a piece of art then you're just wanging on about something and you might as well like art, okay? So I loved... You might as well like art. No, you might just go on about liking art or whatever. Advertising is supposed to sell you something. That's worse.

You know that's worse. You might as well go on about liking art. No, but advertising is supposed to sell you something and it's a different discipline, and so you should think about that. Anyway, so they created this fake heritage. I mean, who you truly feels like you're talking to someone very specific. So you should think about that.

Because I don't think you're talking to me, because I don't think I bang on about art a lot. I mean, I like art. You like it. You know what you like. I know what you like. Yeah, I feel like that was directed at somebody. Okay, so right, listen, so Ridley Scott directs this.

It creates the false nostalgia, it does masses and masses of sales. Funny enough, you know, even in the In Gladiator, which is not an advert, what they were going to have, they wanted to have a scene that illustrated how Maximus was getting bigger than the emperor, and they were going to have him, the emperor was going to go down and open some new building in the financial district, the forum or whatever it may be. and then there was going to be a huge picture of Big Rossi Crow advertising some olive oil. Who's going to say that? Paint it over, paint it over. But in the end, they decided they wouldn't do that because it wasn't necessarily historically accurate.

Because gladiators did advertise things, but they were kind of, they were still enslaved, so it didn't really count. So that is one. So they advertised like painted adverts on the side of buildings and stuff? It's not totally clear. And so Russell Crow was like, I don't think people are going to buy this because it's just too sort of on the note. Anyway, so it didn't end up in the finals. Didn't have Vodafone written across his shield. They did have things on the chariots.

Yes, they had olive oil brands. They had all sorts of stuff on the chariots. Not Vodafone, not Vodafone, Mercedes. Yes. Yes. So that's one. My other one is also Ridley Scott ad, because this is absolutely amazing.

And I remember seeing this, and it was like a sort of weird film. And that is Apple 1984. It's the Super Bowl advert. So we always have to be a session to Super Bowl because everyone's more obsessing. By the way, Raiders beat Washington that particular year, but no one cares because it wasn't very an interesting Super Bowl.

But what was in large part, this ad was just completely shifted the conversation. And Steve Jobs was asked, someone said, you know, can you do an ad for the Super Bowl? He was like, what's the Super Bowl? Wow. Hold on, Steve. I've never seen the Super Bowl. And they were like, well, it's quite a big thing. Anyway.

And so it was Lee Clow at Chiat Day and Ridley Scott. They said, okay, hang on a second. They were, a year and a half after Blade Runner had come out and everyone was thinking a lot about technology and whether it could be used for good or for real, I mean, not much changes. And he wanted a... It was used for good in the end, wasn't it?

Yeah, he used for real good. Yeah, it was used for good. I thought it was, yeah. And Apple were a huge part of that. Yeah. And he wanted a strong woman because it was, you know, they were inspired, Ridley Scott also, he wanted a strong, powerful woman.

Think of all the things he ends up, you know, Ripley or Thelma Louise or whatever it is. So they thought they would use 1984, because it was 1984 as a sort of hook for the ad. I had to they get their ideas from. Yeah, well. So they wanted, but it was amazing when you think about it now that a populist, a completely populist, like mega, mega ad

that's going out in the Super Bowl could lean so heavily on a work of literary fiction. And people would say, oh, I know what that is. I don't think you could do that now. I don't think 1984 as a literary property would mean the same as it did then. But they had this print ad and it was basically individuals versus corporations because they wanted to position themselves as the plucky young upstart against IBM. And if you remember what happens is this woman running, and they had to have all these people who look like the huddled masses

and the kind of the people who were downtrodden by Big Brother and she ends up smashing Big Brother. But they had to hire people who either would like to have their head shaved or, and I'm sure you can see where this is going, already were skinheads so quite a lot of those people who are the kind of shaven-headed kind of

controllers of big brother at that point I think were basically neo-Nazis but this advert every single person who lived in my town had shaved hair in 1986 because they were filming a war film at the Bluebell Railway which just sat the road from us

and we'd all just left school and the advert went in the job centre and everyone I was away so I didn't do it but yeah I came back and everyone was a skoonhead I didn't know why

I need to understand what's happened here yeah yeah yeah well anyway so but it was a completely I mean it's strange what's happened and I don't know

if you'd really think of Apple any longer as the plucky little art star against the horrible big corporations but it exploded into people's conscience in that it sold huge amounts of units

and I think the story behind it is really interesting so those two and both directed by Ridley Scott which tells you how you need to tell a story an incredibly short space of time.

And so I probably say those. But there are other ones, I love TV advertising. So there are other ones that just kind of make you think. I'm always trying to find old ones that I remember on YouTube. And there's so many that you can't find from when I, you know, you switch. And a lot of them are bad as well. Yeah. It turns out.

I'll go back to, listen. I'm going to go to the 1930s. I'm not going to go to the 1930s because I'm not you. I'm going to go 2020. And talking about telling a story in a short period of time. It's like when you read a great short story, but someone, who within, I think it's a 60 second long advert, the John Lewis Christmas advert, I know, keep listening, when you see a middle-aged dad and he's trying to learn to skateboard, anything

and I know what this is, he's just trying to learn to skateboard. And at the end, a foster child comes in with a skateboard, and he's got a skateboard under his arm, just goes, oh, yeah, I skate a bit. And it's such a beautiful idea, beautifully realized, very, you know, very, very undemonstrative, is just a beautiful thing about what human beings can do for other human beings. And, you know, it doesn't make me want to go shop in John Lewis. You know, the chocolates do that. But it's just, that to me is telling a story in one minute. But it's a rarity in those Christmas adverts are actually one of the only places where the budget

and the amount of time they're going to buy allows you to create these things that actually were almost sort of to a penny in the 60s, 70s, 80s, and we feel. to watch those sort of things all the time. Now you've got such little time. The Christmas ads can still do that. And it is that thing that, you know, one has to sell. And you say, well, how is that selling? How is that selling? But actually, everything is context. Advertising knows that. So if you've got a print ad, it's a certain thing. If you've got a print ad in a certain publication, it's a certain thing. If it is a Christmas ad, you're aware there is a mood abroad, which is we would like everything to be better than it was. We would like to regroup. We would

like the world to be a better place. And so actually, that is the perfect ad. But it was fun last year when we did a roundup and what they were all saying. We must do that again this year because it really is a sort of mark to market, isn't it? It's a look at state of the name. Christmas has our state of the nation. It'll be interesting to see what they come up with this year. We'll take another look this year.

Yeah, but I would love it if any of our members or any of you would like to write and tell us what your favourite avids were because that feels like that would be a very good bonus episode. Oh, yeah. Just going through everyone's favourite ever because there's a million that one forgets. So I'd love it. If you do have a favourite one at the moment, which was for some sort of body spray or something in the 80s.

and it was called Liberty and this woman had a postcard arrived on her doormat and you could tell that it was you know from her friends having a nice time and the song went something like Wake up Liberty, no one says you've got to stay and then she got on a plane

and she went and sort of joined them and I remember as a child watching that thinking I want to have a life like that I want to just be able to I want to be someone who can just like say oh I can go and do that I can do anything I want I can travel I can do anything

I remember just like dreaming of having, being able to do something like that. And I can't find this advert. If anyone can find this advert, which I definitely didn't dream. You can't find the advert because that's become your life. Look at you, going out and interviewing, Glenn Powell. Marina, it happened. Just a postcard dropped from him on my dormant. And I was like, yeah, I'll go.

Yeah, stick me on a plane to L.A. right now. One of my biggest ever rating tweets was, did we ever find out if it was Mabelene? Question for you, Richard, from Lily. Holly Hollies, during a recent trip to the Churchill war rooms, I learnt that Winston Churchill was made to undertake a medical assessment before an advance on his book was given by his publisher, so the publisher could take out life insurance. Is this standard practice for publishers and TV shows? Thank you, Lily. It's an interesting one that, because I work in books and television. And television, you literally appear for like two minutes on this morning, you have to sign like a

500-page medical assessment. Every single time you appear on a guest, on anything, you have to sign a form, a statement of health that's called, and it goes to the insurers, I assume no one ever sees it. It is exactly the same form. I must have filled it in 200, 300 times. I sort of want to write on the top just the same as always, because it's long, it's a long form and it's, have you had this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, you know, it's weight, it's height, it's all of the, it's like, properly complicated just to be a guest on something, but any show you ever go on, it's always, well, it's always, well, it's always waiting in my dressing room because they always send it before and I've never filled

it in. But actually, you wait for so long in a dressing room, actually I just think, well, one thing I can do is do the statement of health form. So I can do that. So for every single TV show, you absolutely do that. And if you are presenting a show as well, you will often have to have an actual medical. And actors go through it a lot as well. If you, if you were engaged to sort of be on something for six months or nine months, you will go and see, you know, if you're in Manchester, you're going to Manchester, you're in London, you go to Harley Street. You go to someone, you know, they do various things and then they send off a report to the insurers. And there was some acts I remember about a certain person I say, oh no, why hasn't he been on TV

for so long? They would say, darling, he's uninsurable. There is the sense that some people's lifestyles are so unhealthy that actually, do you actually want to hire them for six months of filming when something could happen? So TV, you absolutely always do, but I've, you know, I've signed five-year book deals and I've never had a sniff of a health form anywhere. I mean, possibly when I enter my 60s, I will do. But yeah, thus far in. publishing they don't seem to mind in television and film absolutely non-stop and very very detailed and the longer on something and you know the further up the the cool shit you are the more invasive that procedure will be but it is absolutely for insurers because if you can you know

if you do have a 200 people making a TV show or making something like that and somebody's off for a day it's a huge deal and you do need to claim on the insurance whereas I guess with books I'm amazed it. It happened with Churchill, actually. First of all, he didn't write most of the books. And second of all, you just wouldn't think it was something from, you didn't, you wouldn't have thought it from that day and age. You wouldn't have thought advances were such a big thing. My assumption in this would be, this was not just an advance on one book. This would be like maybe an advance. You know, I say over the next 10 years, I will deliver you six books. And by the way, I want to be paid up front. Is it true? You drink champagne for breakfast. For example. And so they're going, we absolutely will pay you up front because we would like all of your books. But we have to hedge against the fact that we might not get 10 years worth of books from you. Because of the champagne for breakfast thing.

Yeah. So let's find out. Whereas if he's just been paid a normal advance, you would, yeah, I've never heard of anyone have to sign. You know, if it's 12 months ahead, you know, you take the risk, I think. You know, publishers are used to not getting their advances back. So I imagine this was a special case because he asked for an absolutely enormous amount of money over a very, very long people. of time. And so they thought, I mean, maybe, I know you're Churchill, but maybe we can do this. But yeah, in the TV and film business is nonstop statement of health and insurance medicals and all that stuff. But in publishing, thus far, I have yet to come across it. You've escaped it. Yeah. Well, I think that about wraps us up. We will, of course,

be back tonight moments after 10pm, Thursday, episode 8 of the traitors, for a full debrief. and also probably we'll chat a bit more about the abdication and you know the problems of it sorry it it was in context sort of was it it wasn't really in context well i'm just stating i'm saying it that's that's that's that's where it went wrong okay it's like you know gary and meika and alan they can be talking about into milan they don't start talking about vesuvius i'd love it if they did they yeah why can't they do a breakout yeah come on guys anyway we'll be back at ten o'clock with remorselessly focused on traitors fallout and then we've got a special bonus episode tomorrow

in which the brilliant Chris Lockery and Ollie Richards pull apart all the Oscar contenders and they've seen every single one and we'll be looking at runners and riders. We'll see you next Tuesday, Adam. Yeah. This episode was brought to you by our good friends at Sky. The Skyglass TV is a television that insists on dressing for the occasion,

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