The Rest Is Entertainment - Rupert Murdoch Is A Messy Bitch

Episode Date: April 20, 2026

Internet personalities Alex Cooper and Alix Earle are feuding - but why might this be a good thing for both of them? Will the new Michael Jackson film be a hit, and should you go and see it? And is nonagenarian Rupert Murdoch a messy bitch? The drama between podcast mogul Alex Cooper and influencer Alix Earle has set social media alight - but is it all a PR stunt? And what are the economics behind celebrity feuds? The Michael Jackson biopic is set for a record opening. Richard Osman and Marina Hyde assess the morality of the Jackson estate. Made in Chelsea cast member Binky Felstead has ignited a row over influencer freebies after she asked for a complimentary birthday cake from a London bakery. Are influencers becoming the UK's most hated profession? The Rest is Entertainment is brought to you by Octopus Energy, Britain's most awarded energy supplier. Join The Rest Is Entertainment Club: Unlock the full experience of the show – with exclusive bonus content, ad-free listening, early access to Q&A episodes, access to our newsletter archive, discounted book prices with our partners at Coles Books, early ticket access to live events, and access to our chat community. Sign up directly at therestisentertainment.com For more Goalhanger Podcasts, head to www.goalhanger.com Video Editor: Adam Thornton & James Clayden Assistant Producer: Imee Marriott Senior Producer: Joey McCarthy Social Producer: Bex Tyrrell Exec Producer: Neil Fearn Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

The rest of entertainment is presented by Octopus Energy. Admin tends to require a little bit of encouragement. So submitting your meter reading now earns you a spin and the prospect of being quietly rewarded for it. Yeah, you can spin, you can win octopoints, which you can spend in the shoptopus. The shoptipus. I mean, fair play.

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and getting a free spin and winning octa points. It's a very good example of that. With Octopus, you submit your meter reading, you get a spin and a chance at octopoints for money off your bill or to spend in the most aptly named Shoptipus. Local news is in decline across Canada, and this is bad news for all of us. With less local news, noise, rumors and misinformation fill the void, and it gets harder to separate truth from fiction. That's why CBC News is putting more journalists in more places across Canada, reporting on the ground from where you live, telling the stories that matter to all of us because local news is big news. Choose news, not noise. CBC News. Amazon presents Laura versus fruit flies. Swarming your fruit and terrorizing your kitchen. These little freaks multiply at a rate that would make a rabbit say yo. Chill.

But Laura shopped on Amazon and saved on cleaning spray. Countertop one. wipes and fly traps. Hey, fruit flies, your baby boom ends here. Save the Everyday with Amazon. Hello, and welcome to this episode of The Resters Entertainment with me, Marina. And me, Richard Osmond, hello everyone. Hi, Marina. Hello, Richard, how are you?

I'm all right, how lovely to be back, as always. It is lovely to be back. I have been in Paris, but I'm now retired. Yeah. Oh, my God. For a few days, seen all the sites with my daughter. You've seen all the sites. I've seen all the signs.

What was that? Eiffel Tower. Yeah, yeah. Versailles, you know. All of the... Versailles, I don't know. Eiffel Tower, I know. Yeah, we went out to Versailles. She really wanted to go to Versailles.

She wanted to see the Marianne's Hammo, and it is amazing. I've actually never seen it in real life. You know the place where she used to play it being a shepherdess, and they built an entire little village for her around a sort of ornamental lake of quaint cottages. What are you talking about? Yeah. I'm telling you this is a trot. The hammow.

The hammlet. And she used to dye a sheep pink and play it being a shepherdess there when it just got too much being the richest woman in France. I could see that your daughter would like that. Yeah, it was very, yeah. I can imagine Lauren Sanchez is doing something similar, actually. I recommended it before, but the Parisian agency, which is back on Netflix, remains the greatest property show in the history of television.

Those sons, that family. Oh, my goodness. They are, yeah. Also, there's a very, very, very conspicuous hair transplant on this season of Parisian agency. If you are involved in production in television at all, you can absolutely see when they film the various bits of that show by how the guy's hair is looking. Simply by the plugs? Simply by where it is. Anyway, that's by the buy. Today, we are talking about a big feud, Alex Cooper versus Alex Earl, who is sort of two

leading light in the digital economy. And we're going to talk about modern feuds. We've had a lot of messages asking us about this feud. And I know very little about it, but fortunately I'm sitting opposite someone who knows a bit more about it. Oh, believe me. I've done my degree in it. We're also talking about Michael, the Michael Jackson movie, which is... opens this week. Yeah, it's going to be enormous. We talked about it before, but now it's enormity is upon us. We better have a curtain razor to that.

And finally, we're going to discuss some trash and treasure in this episode. It's mainly trash, isn't it? It's mainly trash, isn't it? Binky Felstid, a sort of second-tier made-in-chelsea star, who has been dragged on social media for requesting, she's an influencer now, and she's requested a free cake in order for collaboration, etc. and we're going to talk about the backlash against influencers that epitomizes. Well, somebody please leave influencers alone. Yes.

I think they're like the miners were in the 1980s. I think influencers are now. Do you? Yeah, I really do. Okay. Can you save that for the binkie item? Because I really want to hear that thesis, please. I'm going to be talking largely about the NUM.

I think they're like something else, which, so I'll talk about that. I think Arthur Scargle is like Spencer Matthews. But anyway, listen, we'll get into it. I can hardly talk about anything else now. Now I know that's coming. Okay, so Alex Cooper versus Alex Earl. Here we go. Now, if you thought these people were the same person,

this is going to come as quite a shock to you, so I'm sorry about that, but we'll have to move on because there's a lot to get through. Both are very, they seem similar because they're both very successful, sort of blonde social media personalities. Shall I tell you what I know about Alex Cooper? Yeah, tell me what you know.

She is like the most successful podcaster in the world apart from Joe Rogan. Yeah. She does call her daddy and she made like $150 million dollars from it. and that is where my knowledge runs out. Well, that's good. And also, wasn't she the leasing of Arctic monkeys? I mean, in a previous life and indeed sex.

They do look similar. That's partly because of fashion, partly because of Instagram face, partly in my view, because of the homogenising effects of many of these modern tweakments. They do genuinely look similar. But I don't think either of them would be probably satisfied with the creator handle. I think they've both got pretensions to sort of ascend to mogul status in this new economy. And as you say, yeah, Alex Cooper, she's got this podcast.

It's not a stop for just people like, you know, the Kardashians or pop stars or whatever. Michelle Obama's been on it. Famously, Kamala Harris and her sort of rather late-time White House run, made that her stop. And that was a big deal. It was huge in the States. It was pretty big over here, but enormous in the States. And obviously there were all the attendant product lines and crucially brand deals. Alex Earle, who's a bit younger, she's 25, Alex Cooper's 31, came up via Get Ready With Me videos on TikTok.

She then came second in a series of Dancing with the Stars. You've talked about how they're bringing all these younger people in. Influences and what have you. She came second in a series and people really supported her. You know, Lady Gaga came out for her. She became quite a big sort of thing. And she had a podcast called Hot Mess and she's now got a YouTube show and she's developing a Netflix show about her family.

So you can see how they make it all about themselves, as it were. That's the way of it. But they are now feuding and it's completely lit up social. media and I have to tell you the timeline. This feels like, by the way, when I'm doing this timeline, you're probably thinking, yeah, yeah, stop now, I get the point with it. But actually, all of it's important and I'll get to why. Look at all of this, but please pay attention to the lecture. There will be a test afterwards. The staging posts are important. The chronology is very important. So in August 2023, they first collaborate these two. There's a post reading, two

blondes walk into a boardroom. You see the whole mogul thing. Alex Cooper signed Alex Earl to Unwell, which is her sort of podcast network, which she's trying to not just projects that she fronts, but have all these other people that she brings out. And she says, I feel honored to be a place in my career where I can pass along knowledge and advice for a new generation of creators to flourish.

So Alex Cooper is huge already. Yeah. She is expanding out her network from Call Her Daddy. And one of her first signings is this young Tyro, Alex Earl. Yeah. Okay. So that's in 2023. In February 22, 25, she...

Culture moves very quickly these days, isn't it, by the way? Yes. If we were talking about... you know, Cadillac or something like that. We'd be going then in 1927, whereas for us, if something happens in, you know, October 2024, it's like ancient history. Well, if you're not always on, everyone forgets about you, and that's part of all of this. February 2025 Alex L. It doesn't explain why.

And it's all sort of divined by social media sleuths, as we call them, who noticed that Alex L. doesn't go to the unwell Super Bowl party, even though she is in town. Of course she's in town, because as we know, Super Bowl is like, you know, the brand apocalypse. Everyone is there, wherever they're holding it. Everyone's like, I don't know what's going on. Why isn't she there? And Alex Al does a TikTok saying, I also don't know what's going on. The next month in 2025, Alex Al says her podcast is on hiatus for the foreseeable future. She doesn't want to get into Y, and she can't get into Y, and she's going to do vlogging from now on. So there's all sorts of, because she says she can't get into Y, there's all sorts of,

speculation and Alex Cooper then has to descend from on high to her own TikTok and say, I see your comments. Alex not being able to podcast has nothing to do with Unwell. I don't know why she can't, what's going on. Unwell gave her everything back. She owns her IP. A couple months later, Alex L is being interviewed by the Wall Street Journal, obviously. Of course. And she says she wants to revive Hot Mess, the podcast, and that behind the scenes, it all was a bit of a hot mess. Again, there's always this sort of teasing. It's never the revealing. But the biggest tease comes in August last year where she is on a TikTok and she says, this is Alex Earl. This is Alex Earl. I says, my co-star tells me that I can start shit today. I mean, is this my time I've been waiting

for to go? It's like I have so much information. We could go. God, this is so, I mean. I know it seems petty, but wait, because I do have a theory on that. Okay, great. And then in the comment section, everyone's like, well, yeah, tell us what happened with Alex Cooper. And she replies, how much time do you have. But again, she does not deliver. Loads of time. Yeah. I'll just ask you the question. Yeah. Let's assume I'm interested. I'm a person in the modern attention economy. I have apparently infinite amount of time for all

this. That's like when you say, how are you to someone? I go, oh my God. I mean, how much time you got? And you go, I mean, go on. It doesn't matter. Yeah. It's very like that. All of this is like that. And Alex Cooper then posts a video saying, how much time you got because we could go night. So she seems to be obliquely replying to this and she sets her video to circus by Britney Spears, which is the song that Alex Elle had danced to in the month before on Dancing the Stars. This is all ridiculous. Oh my God, it's like a Dickens novel. Yeah. You know, when it used to serialise them chapter by chapter and it was making up as he went to one. Yeah, but you know the audience. We've talked about this so much on this podcast before,

this kind of sleuthing that happens that I now think it almost needs an official title. It's like open source intelligence investigations where people are trying to picture to you know, what happened in a plane crash, did rush down the plane. CSI stuff I don't care about. Yeah, exactly. Okay. Thank God. Finally now, we're in the present day.

April 2026. Okay. A TikToker, another TikToker, remember, a whole constellation of people feed off these accounts and they make money themselves for making content about their content. It's like brake pad manufacturers who move to Akron because that's where the cars are being made. Yes, it is. There's a whole community out there. A TikTok called the Bravo Mums post a video saying,

Alex Cooper is so awful and I wish more people would stop making call her daddy their first stop after something happens in their lives because she's profiting off women's heartaches and failures. Alex Earl reposts that video.

Alex? It's on Richard. So Alex Cooper now feels she has to respond. She says, I don't usually address this stuff because it feels like a waste of time. Challenge. And honestly, it's embarrassing to participate in this.

But I'm seeing the videos. I'm getting tagged. I'm seeing the DMs. It just feels long overdue. Alex Earl, hey girl, the passive aggressive repost and the like. and commenting on things.

I've got to call you out here. You're going to need to get specific and say what you've got to say about me. There's no NDA. No one is stopping you. Stop hiding behind other people and just say it yourself. And she says maybe you're using it

to distract from stuff you've got going on. Unless the fake narrative you're creating happens to be way more interesting than the truth. I have nothing to hide when it comes to you and me. So unless you have something to say, I'm out, this is over. Alex Rupplies. Oh, I quite like this.

Okay, on it. She doesn't post a whole thing about it. What she does post is a video of her waking up at Coachella and being shown this post by her friends. And if you're thinking about that, as a producer, you're thinking, well, hang on a second. She says something like, you know, kudos to my friends for realizing I would want this moment on film. Maybe. Anyway, she affects to be waking up at the morning after Coachella and reading this post. I always think it's the most exposing moment in any television program when an actor is asleep and you know they're about to be woken up.

And it's like, how are you going to do that? I pay such close attention to how people attend they just woke and like, huh? Yeah. Yeah. What? Or any of those breakfast shows where someone has to knock on the door of someone and then there's another camera in the house. Yeah.

We know. We know. And you have to affect surprise. But anyway, she affects surprise and says, wow, this has made my whole day. Then there are all these other players commenting on the whole things. There's a guy from basketball sports called Dave Portnoy. Oh, yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And then there's someone called Brianna Chicken Fry. I mean, the names are hilarious. what happened to just Barry Diller when we were talking about moguls she's called Brianna La Paglia I think

Anyway Brianna chicken fry says I wasn't fan of Alex Cooper Before I knew the wrath of fucking Alex Cooper And what she does to people And how she treats people She's lost Brianna chicken fry Yeah she's lost chicken she's chicken fry I'm friends with Alex Earl

Alex Elle told me everything that transpired Between those two two years ago At the Super Bowl Didn't happen at the Super Bowl But that's when she told me everything But she won't say anything more because it's not her story to tell. Jesus.

Now, at time of recording, Monday morning, the very latest was that Alex Earl had posted a video of her pole dancing and said, sorry, been filming this week. Soundtrack, you don't own me. End timeline for now, Richard. For now. Okay. The reason we had to go all through that

because you'll have got the sense from it that following all this stuff is genuinely a full-time job. Yes, yeah, yeah. Now I know what you do. Yeah. I can't believe you managed to fit in Paris this week. I know. I know. Sorry, but this, what we're really talking about is a story about how the attention economy works.

And being always on, you're keeping attention and then you're keeping the eyeballs. And effectively, you are still selling them, those products and the brand collaborations, all of that. That is a huge part of it. We have always had, obviously, scandals and feuds we always have had. But what's changing is the entire sort of structure and dynamic and the texture of those stories. They're driven by the platforms now and their characteristics. What we know about social media platforms is that people stay on them longer when they're angry. And that is one of the absolute fundamental things we know about that business model. And so drama and conflict is absolutely essential to all of it.

But if you look at those stories and you look at the people coming in, some of some of just commenting on the story, that, as we said, it's like building a hotel in the near a theme park. You're hoping to cream off some of the money. So when Brianna Chicken Fry, a person who I can't believe I'm saying I know, but when Brianna Chicken Fry is saying things like that, this is all directing traffic to her, and it helps her with her brand collaborations and her with her deals.

All of the subsidiaries are making money off it too. So that old adage, you know, there's no such thing as bad publicity. This is all content. This is what their business is. This is the best content because it is making people angry or exercised or whatever, which is we know is what keeps them on the platform. That is a feature and not a bug. The platform is creating this kind of story in the first place.

Look at how it came out. It came out why users of the platform, looking at events that are staged for the platform, a Super Bowl party where you're going to post all the pictures and think, hang on, why is she not there? Why didn't she like this post? All of this, everything about it is happening because of the way the platforms work. And drama and conflict is the oil running through both these women's businesses.

and I have to say that really does keep people engaged. And do you think there's, is it entirely manufactured or was there a minor disagreement in the first place that's been blown up? I mean, in terms of the reality of the thing, because it sounds like, to me, a minor contractual dispute. It's a business thing, isn't it? Which would have been dealt with in the olden days by one meeting and, you know, a little payoff. But now they've both monetised it for a good couple of years. Yes, but it is sort of their whole business. Their business is them.

Their business is collaborating with brands or doing deals with brands or having their own product lines. And all of that means that they're competing for the same things. In many ways, perhaps in lots of ways they look the same or they bring similar audiences or whatever it is. They've got the same name. Yeah. As I've said, I do think that the platforms have completely changed the dynamics and the way these stories are uncovered. And also everyone's interest in sort of keeping them going. As I say, that drama and that conflict is what runs the machine.

But it's fascinating because it's sort of. if you think about the media we grew up with and the tabloids and what they would do and, you know, OK and hello and the feuds that would be continued, those things would go on for years and the only people making the money were News International. I agree. Whereas now it's going on for years and the people making the money are actually the people are having around with each other. So in some ways, is progress.

Well, they own their own, you know, they own themselves and they own their own businesses. The thing I think most about this entire generation is it makes you feel so tired. because I think about how hard I worked but at least I could go home at the end of the day but they're just that idea of always on. That's not just for an audience it's also for that person as well. I was looking I was reading a lot about Alex Cooper who's amazing

what she's done and what she's created and her background, her educational background where she studied film and TV so this is like what someone in my generation or the generation after me would have done if they wanted to be in the media she then gets a job in advertising which again is the thing that would have happened my generation or the generation after.

But now there is a route through which didn't exist till 10 years ago where suddenly she's worth $200 million because she goes off, she can represent herself, she is herself, she can do exactly what she wants, she can sign what she wants with who she wants, and there's a huge amount of money out there. And she's potentially worth much more if these people that she kind of brings into her production company into Unwell are seen as a kind of credible umbrella group of companies that she's in charge of it. Then she's properly a mogul. And then she's, maybe she's part of this sales gold rush that we've seen. But as you say, the people she's bringing in are people in her image,

by which I don't mean they look like her. I mean, they are doing the same thing, which is they're putting themselves out there. They're making content about themselves, which hopefully is relatable to a fairly big audience and an audience that's got money. And when I think about the, you know, the collapse of the industry I grew up in and the people who are out of work, there's more money than ever in content, it's just anyone who was over 40 at the time all this started happening is completely alien. If you are starting out in the industry now, it's like it is an absolute insane gold rush, right? I think so. But the rules, you know, when we're talking about this, it sounds so alien, it sounds so absurd. And yet it is, it is the content that huge amounts of

people are enjoying and huge amounts of people are spending an hour or two a day on the that they would have previously spent watching an ITV drama. I agree with that. But I also agree with it at a sort of mogul level, because I've seen a lot of people saying, oh, you know, these young female founders, how typical they've sort of descended into amateurish bitching, really. And that's very much part of their economy.

You know, you can't imagine the old media moguls behaving like this. Huh? Huh? Okay. What? Oh, my God. Yes, you can. Let's talk about the first Trump presidency. I don't know what his routine is now.

His get ready with routine is now. But let me tell you, in that first presidency, he would get into bed 6.30 with the big cheeseburger and the vat of Diet Coke, with all the TVs set to, as he put it in an actual quote, channels talking about me. Such a get ready with me routine. And then he would chat on the phone to a carousel of billionaires, many of the media billionaires, all of whom had been given cleared caller status to the White House so they could get straight through. And they would bitch all night long. There was one time when murder was on the phone to him and he just had to explain to him.

Silicon Valley billionaires didn't need Trump's help. They were sort of run the show under the last administration. And Trump just didn't understand it at all. And as soon as Murdoch puts down on the phone, he just rings someone else and goes, what a fucking idiot. They are all bitching about each other. The thing is they just do it in private.

And Murdoch v. Maxwell. But also not just in it private. There's lots and lots of it in public. It's just they are men. And so it's seen as somehow machinations. It is not female behavior. Money and gossip is all of it for them. In men, it's seen as 3D chess.

Yeah. I think, wow, so amazing what they're doing, the way they're sort of moving their pieces around. But it's, I mean, of course it was ever thus. I completely agree with you. It is not, it is, this is not female behaviour at all. It is not female ego or male ego. It is ego. Yeah, it's money and gossip and they all mainline it and love it.

I think actually even showbiz is less bitchy than being a mogul. I think. Well, look at the Epstein files. It's taught us many, many things. One of them is this a whole series of very, very high profile men who are spending a lot of their time, just bitching about each other and trying to get into each other's parties. Yes. This is how these people, the new mo, you know, this is how someone, I would say Alex Cooper is probably

further ascended to mogul than Alex Earle is. But this is how they dominate the attention economy via this sort of behavior. Murdoch had Fox News and that is a way of getting eyeballs. They have this. And Alex Cooper has Alex Cooper and it remains to be seen whether the people she brings into her stable are as good as she is. and Alex Earl has Alex L, and they're doing very, very, very well off it, thank you.

Suppose my question is, can you become genuinely powerful like this in the way that the people we've talked about? Those billionaires were genuinely powerful. I mean, I think so. I think, you know, given that Trump can become president and a large part of that was through what, at the time, I've seen as new media,

which is reality TV, now we would think of as old media. There's definitely a world in which Joe Rogan or Alex Cooper has a very, very big political career. I completely agree with that. And I think Joe Rogan's sort of doing it now and all the beef happens, all his beef, Rogan's beef happens on air. And he talks about it and it's content. As I say, everything is content and your life is content. I mean, if you have spent many, many years owning your own narrative, not necessarily controlling it because people come in and out of it, but owning your own narrative, you're sort of exposure proof. You know, that we said the old media who will sort of bring you on and ask you questions about, you know, labor reforms. You think this, this. There's a generation who have never heard people being questioned in that way and are not interested in it. And the nature of that owning your own narrative is being sort of post-chame. You just get up tomorrow and you live stream all over again.

And it's interesting. I noticed, God, I was reading something this morning, that Taylor Frankie Paul, who we were talking about from Seek's Live and Mormon wives and the cancelled season of The Bachelorette has completely come out and said, I'm going to show you all of my combat. I'm going, you know, there is no sense that you just be like, oh my God, I've been driven off social media, delete your account. Delete your account. Like, who deletes her account nowadays? Nobody deletes her account. That already feels like something from a decade ago. You just, this is great. It's all engagement and you just turn it into something else. And if you are always on, as all these people we've been talking about are, it doesn't really matter. It just ends up to being something that is content that draws more eyeballs and that's all you need because you can sell them products. It's just money. I think that's something quite odd and as I say it is entirely dictated by the platforms and it's changed the nature of what we even consider to be anything detrimental, you know, a feud that in the old days, I mean, Brettie Davis and Joan Crawford didn't want their feuds necessarily in the newspapers. They didn't mind if they'd said something really brilliant and bitchy, but one thing.

You know, you don't want the ongoing background to your whole life to be people talking about this, except unless you do. And I think that's what's changed that everything is driven by these platforms and everything is ploughed back into them and then even more dividends are paid out by them the more there is. And it's, you know,

the one thing that's at the heart of this as well, which is why it's so often is overlooked is these are not people with a particular job. So these are not actors or sports people who actually go, you know what, I'm going to go and make some money and do my job now. This is a their job 24 hours a day and be the only thing that makes the money.

I mean, creator is a job. But it's exactly the same as if you're Rupert Murdoch. Yeah. I mean, it's the same thing. It's, you know, you're using your force of personality and your opinions to get one over on other people and to move the chess pieces around. I mean, it's the same gig, right? And so it never sits right with me because I didn't grow up with it. But if you're born into a generation where you absolutely natively understand TikTok and all of these things, then what else would you do?

Because you can make $200 million in 10 years. if your head is screwed on. You know, that's the thing that you can do. That's what Murdoch would be doing if he was 20. I mean, that's... Because of a thought of a live stream. He does have incredible gossip. He is a messy bitch.

Oh my God, the messiest. I mean, the single messy is... A couple of years ago, he was engaged twice in one year and he's like 92. I mean, please. If you imagine... Taylor Funky Paul could never. Yeah. If you imagine Rupert Murdoch was a 23-year-old woman and then...

This is going to give me a bad dream to him. But then show the series of things that happened to him, the relationships he was in and then got out of and what. he did and how he got out of them, the things he bought and the things he sold and how he was to, you would just think this is the messiest bit you ever lived. I'm giving my job just so I can follow it. But no, he's a he's a, he's a, I would do my degree in that. Yeah. Imagine Rufant Murdoch as a, as a 23 year old influencer. Oh no, I will be all day. Anyway, I can exclusive reveal because people wonder which side I'm on in this. I am hashtag team Alex.

I'm just here for the drama. But it also reminds me absolutely of boxes. Yeah. And boxes will do this thing of saying, oh my God, I'm going to knock you out. I'm going to you know, I'm going to kill your family, all this stuff. And then after us they're going, you know, what a fighter. He's a great fighter. But the whole, you know, Tyson Fury versus Anthony Joshua. I mean, they have strung that out for such an incredibly long time. I mean, insanely long time.

I don't even talk about my enemies. Yeah, you do. You never don't. It's literally, that's all you do. And now they're going to fight each other and it's way, way too late. But everyone's still going to watch it. They're going to make hundreds of millions. But again, they're men.

So it's seen as... It's all in the game. Yeah. But it isn't it. Boxing was, boxing sort of understood social media. before pretty much anything. Boxing and porn, they're always ahead of the game. Shall we go to a break?

We've got more messy bitches after the break, starting with Michael Jackson. It's messy bitch week. Yeah, isn't it just? See you in a mo. The ride that steals the spotlight every time it hits the road, that's the Volkswagen TIG one. Its sleek exterior makes a first impression you can't ignore. Step inside to find available full leather seats and wood accents.

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Rich, creamy, chocolatey arrow truffle. Feel the arrow bubbles melt. It's mind bubbling. Welcome back, everybody. The marina this week, new movie opens. It's called Michael. It's about Michael, not Baramore, but Jackson. Jackson.

The listeners to the podcast have heard us talking about this one before, but it's imminent. And it's going to be, as you say, released this week, it's made by Lionsgate. It is tracking to open enormously. I think I said that in my sort of preview of the year. I thought it would do really well. Maybe it will get to 75 million in the US and 200 million globally. interestingly, more globally, which is always interesting with these kind of things, because he's got a big fan base around the world.

But if they did get, I can't remember what Bohemian Rhapsody got. Bohemian Rhapsody's open to $51 million, which was huge. The biggest ever biopic or music biopic was straight out of Compton, the NWA one, which was 60 million. I think it's going to beat both of those. So I think it's about a $50 million dollar budget as well, Bohemian Rhapsody. And this is the same guy, right? Same producer.

They spent just over 150 million on this, but the budget has since increased 170 because a number of reshoots were required, which we'll get to. Bohemian Rhapsody, don't forget, that was a very troubled production. All sorts of things happened there. They had Sasha Baron Cohn was the lead and he left and then Brian Singer had to be removed from the motion picture in light of various. He was the director. I love Bohemian Rhapsody. I know you did. I know some.

And also, my view of that film is this. If you see that film as the John Deacon story, it's the greatest film ever made. Okay. Because it's just like this electrician who plays the drums and it's just, oh my God, what's happening now? And if you see it through the eyes of John Deacon, it's a little win every score in the world. It resolves into a good film. I think it's a great film. I really enjoy it. Yeah. I really, really, yeah. Do you not? No. I like it when, you know, they go, uh, Jack walks in and Rachel says, hit the road, Jack, and then turns to his piano. Yes, please.

Okay, let's return to Michael, which I think is a film we can both agree, has a more complicated story to it. But it's got very, it's got an Anton Fakwa who directed Training Day. He's the director, written by John Logan, who did Gladiator, did The Aviator. So they've got good people in it. And good people in it. Coleman Domingo plays Joe Jackson, Michael's father, under the great entertainment monsters.

Miles Teller, near Long, and the estate of Michael Jackson is amongst the producers, which is quite important. What they kept, the most important point of the film, I guess, underwraps for a long time with these teaser trailers, which is the performance of Jafar Jackson, can you believe he's called Jafar, the nephew,

I think he's Jermain's son, who is playing Michael. So by way of background, I mean, we know why we're talking about, about this film because obviously he with Michael Jackson was beset by child abuse allegations he was cleared of some there are ongoing cases against the estate but that estate has proved incredibly resistant to those allegations um he's the 27th biggest artist on spotify he's there's a Cirque de sale show all about you know based on the music and thriller live was very very successful and it gave way to MJ the musical which is also huge which is massive across many countries

and there's a new one opening in the West End quite soon actually called Can You Feel It? So is that the third Michael Jackson musical? Yeah, in not very many years. That's amazing. And anyway, the director, Anton Farquhar, said, we're going to show the good, the bad and the ugly. And Graham King, the producer, said, we're going to humanise but not sanitise. And Coleman Domingo said, you know,

I think it's actually just trying to give a great examination of an artist, what made the artist two years, what makes him complicated for you to leave with your own answers. Okay. Right. Can I just say, I think something really interesting is going on with Coleman Domingo because he has not said anything about this film. I saw the hot ones he did and he literally mentioned the date of the film, that's it. He hosted SNL in the US a couple of weeks ago and just did not mention the film. You're booked because you're promoting the film. So something, I don't know whether he thought, I'm just going to play one of the great

entertainment monsters as I've just said and then thought, hang on a second, I didn't quite realize was what I was getting into here because it's become it's very controversial and it's interesting what has happened with this script because a version of the script leet and it's been all over the place not a stolen document but a leaked document but they have summarized it

which was that the original film as everyone signed on to started with the raid on Neverland when Michael Jackson is photographed and is forced to have his genital area photographed because

Georgie Chandler, who was this kid who made these allegations against him, had been made to do a drawing of distinguishing marks. And they opened with that scene, which is quite suddenly out there. But also, by the way, if you're a Coleman Domingo or John Logan, you're like, oh, okay, we're going to do this seriously and take it seriously. You know, that I would believe suddenly, oh, this isn't just going to be some sort of whitewash. That original script says that the drawing and the photograph don't match. They haven't gone with that. Now, the film that you're going to see is something different because completely unfathomied. As I say, the estate are a producer on this and the estate are absolutely kind of rapacious

and how much money they want to make and how much control they have. But they were responsible for a sort of unbelievable mistake where they didn't realize that the settlement with Jordy Chandler all those years ago said that he could never be depicted in a film or whatever. And I think the act three of this film, the final third was entirely about. about this, it was all about the allegations. So they had to pay for the, personally, the estate had to fork out the $15 million or whatever it costs for the reshoots.

The movie that you are going to see, if you are going to see it, now covers Michael Jackson's rise from being in the Jackson 5 band member, family member, with all that dreadful family, to solo artists. And it climaxes with the Bad Tour in 1988. So what I would say is, it's a hell of a sequel if they do one. It was going to end with Bad either way. Yeah. They're talking already about this becoming the Michael Jackson universe,

and they will do future films for other albums and other eras, which, you know, sort of makes sense. But yeah, very different to the original project as pitched. Yeah. And it's interesting which family members are involved. Obviously, Jermaine is involved and Jafar is in it. Jafar is very involved. Yeah, Javar is very involved.

But Janet Jackson won't speak about it. and it's not clear what's happened there, but I don't know whether she's not in it at all. She's not depicted. Paris, one of his three children, you remember there's Prince, Paris, and now called Begi, but formerly Blanket. We know him as the crowd surfing baby.

And she said it was sugar-coated, and she's not into it. Yeah, she didn't turn up to the premiere or screening, whatever they've just had of it, but the other two children did. So it's all sorts of different kind of views on it. But we have to say that there is still more than one case against the estate, accusing Jackson of child abuse. I mean, as I've said before, many times, I believe, you know, he was a predatory paedophile.

Just look at the evidence. We know how these sorts of things work. It's always boys. They're all about the same age. This is, if he was really, where are all the girls? Why was then not a sort of multi-opportunity? everyone can share a bedroom with this man with an alarmed bedroom. But Wade Robson and James Safechuck, who were the two subjects of Leaving Neverland,

that documentary, which is brilliant documentary on HBO, their case is still, and it's constantly being given leave to proceed, and they're still involved with all the discovery. You know how long the American legal system takes. There's something in that the loss of shame in this as well, which is everyone just seems able to go, look, we're going to make a huge amount of money out of this. You know, let's just keep pushing it and pushing it and pushing it.

And it does. If you're Janet Jackson or various other members of the family, you must just think, look, I loved my brother, but I recognize that, you know, there are things that happened in his life that I'm not comfortable with. And so, you know, I don't want to be part of this billion dollar industry. But, you know, I'm not getting any money off it in her case. You know, I'm fine with separating the artistry.

I don't think people should never listen to Michael Jackson or whatever, even though other people do have a different view on that sort of thing. But when a sort of hagiography just tips over into complete image laundering, as we might say has happened here, I guess what they've done is leave such a sort of, they've left it open to say, oh, we'll cover all that in a sequel. It would be quite difficult to be the writer of that sequel, I must say.

But if they don't do that, they will do a sequel because it's obviously going to do so well. But if it continues to stay tipping into really, quite toxic image laundering, then I think when there are victims, an alleged victim, still out there and the case is still rumbling through, I find that pretty difficult. And it's a very complicated thing, this, because they haven't made the movie they said they were going to make. They now no longer answer questions on that first script because they're saying, oh, it's, you know, this isn't nothing that's, it wasn't produced.

This is just talking about an earlier draft of something. And I think it's interesting As you say, the sort of post-chain thing That how many people will turn out to see it And as I say, there's nothing wrong We're going to see a movie about Michael Jackson If it were an honest thing But they have certainly set up a hell of a sequel, I would say that

No, a question for you, but it's also a question for people listening as well Will you go and see it? Yeah, I will see it because it's a, it's a, I see lots of things it's a big newsy thing and I want to see exactly how they've done it I don't think I can talk properly about it unless I have seen it and I will want to probably talk some more about it

as time goes on so yes I will see it and anyway I would listen to Michael Jackson music and I know that some people find that appalling and but yes I don't have a sort of problem with that but I think you have to be realistic about what you're doing Can we as a lovely palakthenza

talk about Binky Felstead? It involves cake yes this is Binky Felstead This is that she's a, as I said, a sort of second tier original Made in Chelsea star. Slice name in a PG Woodhouse novel. Yes. I mean, honestly. She's now an influencer and she's in a sort of living after Maiden Chelsea spin-off.

If you look at her social media, she's one of those many people who is always on a free holiday. The furniture in our house is paid for. Everything, it's all, the life has got, she's got three small children and it's all kind of paid for content. Anyway, she asked for a cake for one of her children's birthdays. From a baker called Orange de Souk, actually one of our next door neighbors once had a cake from this place paid for. And it was absolutely delicious because I had a piece. Anyway.

And by that, are you going to pay for that at all? No, no. Wow, because you're an idiot because you could have got a lot for that from orange to soup. Yeah. It was beautiful, this thing and it tasted delicious. Anyway, but they're a small business. and Binky Faustard's team, we'll discuss what we think that actually involves,

got in touch and said, could you have a cake in exchange for exposure? Now, that made a mistake going to this particular baker. She's called Rashmi Bennett, and she's been quite vocal in the past about calling out this sort of thing. She completely called it out, posted some of the screenshots of sort of, you know, the begging letter for the cake.

She made a satirical GoFundMe saying, Can we all put club together so that this person off-made in Chelsea can get a cape for a son's birthday? The problem with this is that there's a reason for this is that this has happened so many times to this baker before. She was once asked to make 250 macrons and she boxed them and she had to individually box them. She was told that she'd get photos. No photos happened. Completely ghosted. So you provide this stuff for free and then sometimes people just don't fulfill their half of the bargain.

She's been sort of blackmailed by a blogger who asked for free stuff. And then when she didn't give it, the person came outside, bought one macaro and said, oh, it's disgusting. Avoid this shop. So her point about it all, Rashby Bennett, is that the economics of this very rarely work. And the evidence of sales just isn't really there that, okay, because your cake has been featured in a celebrity's birthday party thing, this is going to be the floodgates of business are about to open and all this money is going to flow towards you. She sort of says, I do it as a warning to others. Yeah.

And also, this is Binky Fester. It's not Tom Cruise. No, it's not, who famously gives many people cakes, which I assume he pays for. Anyway, she wrote back to Binky's rep and she said, the optics are terrible. A rich made in Chelsea style gets a cake for free from a small family run business. What would have made an incredible piece of press was if Binky had paid full price for a cake, and I posted about how an influencer actually paid for their cake. Now, the rep has had to do clean up on it.

By the way, this is really kicked off. And this is because, as we keep saying, influences are becoming the most hated job, even worse than journalists and estate agents and maybe even zero ale killers. And the rep says, you know, this happens all the time. This is a normal thing to do. But the perception is that they ask for absolutely everything at the influencers. And there are also a growing number of people who will just say they're an influencer. You know, sort of I have 700 followers.

Please, can you give me a spa weekend? I mean, I'm just, it's, and actually fielding the sheer volume of requests. I've talked to quite a lot of people about this. And they say, sometimes they say, fielding request is a job in itself because you get so many. And they come into your places of work and say, I want to film now. Dealing with all of this. I mean, you've seen lots of people say in restaurants, we're going to have to ban people with cameras because they're, you know, standing. They're taking up all the space in a restaurant filming and it's just becoming ridiculous.

People in gyms, constantly filming, which is you mustn't film in gyms. No. But, yeah, it's sort of non-stop. It's all the time. Because influence is one of those self-defined jobs. Yes. Where you can say, I'm an influencer. Okay, let's talk through how and why you're an influencer.

Take me through the profit and loss in your last year of who you've influenced and how. I agree. Are they influencing, which is what this baker is sort of saying. Now, it was quite interesting in terms of this whole round. It's really blown up and she's done. Other things before. And she does give the appearance of having, you know, everything else, everything paid for. But the numbers were quite interesting.

So, you know, people are saying, oh, you'd expect. I would actually even expect something to be given to me. And then I would ask to be paid for the post, $2,000, $5,000. And, you know, the answer is we're paying you with exposure, which, again, these businesses don't really feel they're getting. You are supposed to say when any of this has happened on the bottom of the post, gifted or sponsored or ad. It's so interesting.

They so rarely do. and yet it's happening all the time and it's very, very difficult to police I would have said, I mean, what is the policing? It's like a phone ringing out on the meta campus somewhere. I mean, no, nobody is policing and say, why didn't you put gifted on your pace? You and I have said about a million times

celebrities just pay for your own stuff. It is so much easier. Just pay, just pay. Just don't, you don't have to the cameras in, you can just pay for your own things. Having said that, this is her entire job and actually it's bizarre. She lives in a,

almost like an ancient system of barter, when you think that the house is fully furnished by a company that I won't bother naming, the holidays are paid for all the things that you might spend money on are sort of being given to you and you would give you exposure. But that's it. You're not actually being paid for a lot of this, but it's buying you things in your life. And I talk about that illusion of a team. I often think that you almost always have a publicist if you're someone with her level of followers.

But that publicist would work for lots of different people. Would it be your own personal publicist? No, that would that work for many different people and all people like you. So it's like saying that my news agent, but I'm very aware that my newsagent also sells newspapers to other people. Yes. And it's mainly, I sometimes think when they're talking about a team, it's sort of just you chat GPT and a shared publicist.

But when I explain that thing about, you know, every single thing in the life being paid for, the clothes, the holidays, the things in the house, probably quite a lot of the food. you see the precariousness of it. This is really bad this route for her because she's now less desirable as a person because people think she's a grifter and she gets everything paid for. She just went really,

I heard she was on a holiday last week when this all happened. So she will return to understanding that her stock has gone right down. And that is the precariousness of all of these things. Again, we're talking about the platforms, but it's true.

There's another Made in Chelsea Star original cast, a guy called Olli Locke, who's in some big drama at the moment that he didn't pay the rent on his house. him and his husband and I don't know. I'm not even going to get into the details of that one. What I will say is he tried to explain that his, you know, it's hard to run your influence income and money coming. You know, I've mismanaged things, etc. But he did it by giving a tearful interview saying I'm having a sort of breakdown. And I just thought, don't do that.

I'm so sorry, you look a mess now and people don't want to give free things to messes. And this is your whole business. I'm so sorry to say, but this is the precariousness of the life. that it requires you to seem happy and breezy and aspirational. And if you seem like a grifter, then fewer people are going to want to give you things. Well, we like it when people will earn their living, I think. Well, yeah. And the language now being used to describe to people is like,

oh, you're in a house you didn't pay for, you get free stuff, these people don't work while you do. This is exactly the same accusations that they would level against what they perceive to be fake asylum seekers. Like in the public mind. And by the way, lots of them are living abroad and paying no tax. So I mean, sorry, what is it that you think you're contributing to anybody?

Yeah. Or anything. And also, this is not all influences. We know that. And there's certainly not all that, you know, lots and lots of people will tell you things are brilliant on social media and for good reasons. But there is a subclass of people and it's nice to see them get caught out every now and again. Do you know what? Here's the basic rule of thumb.

Pay for your child's birthday cake. It's so basic. And if you find someone in life who cannot afford to pay for their child's birthday cake, why don't you pay for one of theirs as well? That's what you should be doing. That's what you should be doing with your life and with your money, is looking after other people, not trying to just sort of get more and more things

and putting your arms around things and bringing cakes into your house. Well, Rashby Bennett, that baker, not that long ago, she created a really clever cake, a watermelon cake, and she gave a percentage of all the sales to, save the children's Gaza appeal. And an influencer just got in touch and said, can I have one for my birthday for free, please? Okay, this cake particularly no. But again, the whole, there is, the backlash is definitely real.

And you see people, it's such a huge, the takedown industry is becoming worth a lot of money. And the perception that people are against the backdrop of a cost of living crisis are, you know, getting free luxuries, are not working, are getting everything given to them when you don't have to, is extraordinary. And the mapping onto it of areas of the immigration debate or anything else is actually slightly wild. But I would definitely say that it is a very precarious situation because once you don't seem desirable or you've been involved in some sort of backlash like this, then very many fewer people want to give you anything. Yeah. And then you can have to steal a cake. And then, yeah.

That's going to be your only option left. you're not going to be able to afford one. And do a tearful interview about it. Yeah, three tears. I'd say if there's a lesson from today's show, it's about the death of shame. Isn't it? Yeah.

Should we have a moral at the end of every episode? Oh my God, we should do that. Any recommendations? Well, mine is a great show. But when we're in Paris, we had one TV channel that we could watch in English, and it was BBC One. Great.

my daughter who is 11 ended up therefore watching when we got back for the day lots of shows that she wouldn't normally see because although she watches I play she doesn't see the schedule and she was like I love this show CountryFar

I was like sorry what it's really good it's really interesting I was like yeah country by the way it's one of the biggest shows on TV which is something that a lot of people don't realise if you've told them that they wouldn't necessarily realise but it's absolutely enormous and yeah I would like to recommend

the BBC 1 schedule television show, Country File. You know, they're not a fashionable, but they're just so they're still beautifully made and still get numbers that if you put them on social media would be like beyond enormous. You know, if you had the sort of numbers that Country File gets week in, week out, the size of cake you could get for free is beyond enormous. It would be larger than our country. It would be enormous.

I am going to recommend. Actually, I'll recommend because I mentioned it at the start, the new season of the Prisian agency. I recommended it before. season is back and it's just the houses are unbelievable but it's also it's it's just about that quite extraordinary family i'll have to say and the things that happen to them and you know even if you don't really love property shows that that's that's the one and it feels slightly realer than a lot of those things as well so i love uh la gens parisienne right that about finishes us for

today we will be back on thursday with the questions and answers can i just say before that because on last week's question and answer thing, I was talking about getting Bill Paxton and Bill Pullman mixed up. And I said to people, are there any actors you get mixed up? The response to that has been so insane. And we'll go through... Bigger than bookshelves? It is bigger than it's officially... And that means something. Bigger than bookshelves. So we'll go through some of the celebrities and actors who people always thought was the other person on Thursday. I'm dying for that. And then on Friday, for our members, we have the final part of our Spice Girls epic. I will miss that when it's gone.

But other than that, we'll see you on Thursday. See you on Thursday.