The Rest Is Entertainment - Sex Playlists - A Deep Dive

Episode Date: August 10, 2026

What makes a good sex playlist? How should we talk about Ariana Grande? Which unlikely star should become the next James Bond? Marina and Richard have done a deep dive into sex playlists. Who is the undisputed king of music in the bedroom? And is there a scientific formula for the perfect lovemaking anthem? Ariana Grande is taking a break from public life following scrutiny about her weight and appearance. Is the discourse around the pop star doing more harm than good? New polling from Focal Data reveals who British and American audiences want as the next James Bond. But are the public’s instincts ever right when it comes to casting 007? This episode contains discussion of eating disorders. If you’re worried about your own or someone else’s health, you can contact Beat, the UK’s eating disorder charity on 0808 801 0677 or beateatingdisorders.org.uk. The Rest is Entertainment is brought to you by Octopus Energy, Britain's most awarded energy supplier. Sponsored by Lloyds. Looking for extra value from your spending? You can bank on Lloyds to help your money go further. Search Lloyds Rewards in your app. Summer sale is here: get an annual membership for a third off with code SUMMER26. That's ad-free listening, every bonus episode, and full access to our exclusive members' series. Sale ends August 31st, so grab it before summer's over. For more Goalhanger Podcasts, head to www.goalhanger.com Video Editor: Adam Thornton and Louis Mealing Assistant Producer: Imee Marriott Senior Producer: Joey McCarthy Social Producer: Emma Jackson Exec Producer: Ami Bennett Filmed at www.westdigitalstudios.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Hello, and welcome to this episode of The Rest is Entertainment. with me Marina Hyde and me Richard Osman. Hello everybody. Hello Marina. Hello Richard. How are you? I'm all right. You sound like A, you're not in the same room as me and B, you're somewhere sunny. It's just something in the voice. There's something I'm devastated to be a part, but I'm, yes, I am in Corfu. But you'll be back very soon. I will be back by the time we do our next episode, yes. Yes. Nice over there? Very, very nice, Richard. Very, very nice. Thank you. Yeah, it's been super. How's the entertainment scene? How's the Corfu in film industry? Well, I'm staying somewhere that you can only watch DVDs, so I've been watching a lot of films. Where are you staying? 1987? Yeah, I'm staying in 1987. It's like very hard to check your emails and yeah, it's been, it's been real. Can I issue a quick plea, which is my book tour I'm going on in September, has sold out. Thanks, everyone, apart from the Birmingham Symphony Hall, which is the one place I said, don't book me in the Birmingham Symphony Hall because it's huge. So if you want to come to the Birmingham Symphony Hall on the 8th of

September, you'll be very welcome. I'll be talking to Harriet Tice from The Traders and we'll be book signing and all sorts of things. So that's the eighth in Birmingham. And that's just, that's literally a sub-tweet to my publishers. I told him. I did tell him. I said, I'm not Michael Ball. And I'm not. What are we talking about this week other than the fact I'm not Michael Ball? Well, Richard, you have kindly agreed to discuss sex playlists with me. because I want to talk about what people put on their sex playlists and why. A deep dive, if you will. Yes, a deep dive.

The economics of the thing as well. We're also talking about some amazing new polling about James Bond, what the public think about James Bond, who the public would like to be James Bond. Are we going to take a look at that? And we're going to talk about Ariana Grande, who said that she's sort of stepping back from public life for a bit and has been the subject of intense scrutiny over her weight and how she looks and her health.

And we're going to talk about the difficulty of all of that and whether people should talk about it at all. I just reminded as well that someone told me for definite who the new bond is the other day. But I mean, that's happened before. But I'll let you know what they said. Well, we'll get into that. Right. Sex playlist. Okay.

Yes. For some reason, I needed something. I needed to listen to Sex on Fire by Kings of Leon the other day. and I was looking for it and I noticed I was looking down wow, this thing is on a lot

of sex playlists and then I became slightly obsessed with all of this and so I want to talk about which artists really, really perform on these what makes...

Yeah, really perform. What makes a song how they work? We could do a little bit of the history thereof by the way because I would like to talk we're going to go right back

to ancient times, okay? Oh wow, because I was going to go back to Barry White. Yeah, well, that's the later. Okay, Iskhanes, a Greek orator, he made us... Yeah, but he made us... How are you making sex playlists? It was immediately a classicist take on sex playlist.

Oh my God, I'm going to strip every piece of magic out of this for you later. By the way, you wouldn't even allow me to call them sex tapes, which I think is what they used to be, sex cassettes. It's not sex... Okay, they used to be sex cassettes, but if you say sex tapes, people think it's a different thing now, okay, so you can't say sex tapes. It's a sex playlist, right? Now, Iskinese made a speech against an enemy in which he accused the enemy of having given

into the most shameful vices. He invites women and flute players. Now, Plutarch said the Roman tyrant Silla. He picks up this kind of partying style on military campaigns. He has big erotic parties. Again, musicians, a lot of flautists. Are flautists the first major sex playlist artist? I'm going to leave that one for our listeners to decide at the end. Was it not just a euphemism? No, I don't think it was. It was. It wasn't actually. I think that some of them were multitaskers, yes, certainly, and perhaps particularly skilled.

But obo players, that's a euphemism. I don't think they had any oboes. Listen, we can't get too stuck in history. So we're moving through Al Green, Marvin Gay. They were famous obo-sexuals, weren't they, in the classical world? Okay, let's just move on to the modern era, okay? So we've got Al Green, Marvin Gay, Barry White, I'm sure you would like to talk about. No, no, no, no, you'd carry on. Honestly, I'm a student studying at the feet of the master.

Barry White, okay, so he becomes a soundtrack to a lot of people's love. It's romantic soul. He's got that deep baritone. He called it sort of sex and symphony. But it was quite anticipatory of disco because there are beats there. We're going to get onto quite a lot of technical music stuff. Oh, my God. This really is a deep dive.

Oh, no, listen, I tried to talk to the people at Spotify about this. They did not want to discuss this. That's so weird that they wouldn't return that call. They returned it, but they didn't want to get into it. Did they at any point say you have to stop ringing us? They said, they are performing a valuable public service in my view. I don't think they should be ashamed to talk about this. But if people won't answer my many, many questions, I will go another way about it.

And I spoke to a lot of people in the music industry. I read a couple of medical papers. Wow. And I looked at what Spotify's publicly available data. Right. Everything changes. Everything has now changed. But the last time we knew about this, particularly from their data, back in 2015, it was

the XX's intro. That was massive on sex playlist. Chet faker. Back then, Spotify said back then that there were 2.5 million playlists, which were basically sex playlists. Yeah. But it was a different aesthetic. It was a kind of indie.

electronic minimalism. Yeah, quite kind of slow, lush sort of thing. It's now much more dark R&B. And there was a 2025 analysis of over 1,700 Spotify playlist, which all said things like sex or bedroom or romance or shagging in the title. And oh my God, there is a massive artist hierarchy on this. I will professionally not tell you who is far and away the market leader till we get on. Even though I sort of know who the market leader is.

know who it is. Okay. So there's lots of artists that just feature again and again and again. And sometimes they have like one big track, but a lot of them just have lots and lots of different tracks in these things. So you've got things like two feet that they're on it a lot. I call them 24 inches. Okay. Chase Atlantic. So there's lots of songs, but swim is massive. Doja Cat, again, lots of songs, but streets is massive. Arctic Monkeys, I want to be yours. and Tiller, don't. Like Montel Fish, Hotel Drake, Teenage,

Fever, all of these absolutely... Montel Fish? Yeah, Montel Fisch. Labyrinth, Mount Everest. Okay, but there's lots of, like, Chris Brown, under the influence, Chris Brown, that is huge. Rihanna, I don't like to mention them in the same paragraph, but there you go.

So they're big. And still people like massive attack and Porter's Head kind of do well. But way out in front, like way, way, way, with into the thousands of appearances, is the weekend. The weekend. Oh my God.

He is miles and miles ahead of absolutely everybody else. He's the default artist, right? Yeah. I thought that the thread that ran through this just went Barry White Prince the weekend. Now I recognize it's Eastonies Barry White Prince the weekend. But Eastonis is just telling you about that. Yeah, yeah, they are the big four, right? So one of the girls is by far the biggest, but also often,

high for this, what you need anyway. You could go on because he just cannot the weekend gets so much of this again. So I find this all interesting

but I was trying to understand what made those songs particularly work. So I did speak to a couple of actual technical musical experts. This is the science bit. This is the science bit.

I am removing every piece of joy from this piece by piece. I like the whole of Britain all at the same time going, do you know what, I might never have sex again? Sorry.

Okay. Is there a magical sex BPM? Okay? The answer to that is not really. Sorry, sorry, by the way, is there a magical sex BPM? Can that be the title of the episode? Yeah. BPM, I should point out, is beats per minute.

Yes. Yeah. Now, some commercial analyses will say that between 90 and 130 BPM is a good spot for a sex playlist track. Like blood pressure? Yeah, but it actually, actually what people think is it should feel slower than its raw BPM, okay? So then the raw BPM measurements suggest it should feel slower. Now that is achieved in various ways.

Okay. Okay, steady pulse. Tell us some of those ways, Marina. A steady pulse, that does very well. A high rhythmic consistency. I want you to listen to this. Now, a half-time... I'll tell you what, now people are perking up.

A half-time groove. This is when the backbeat shifts, right? So it feels... Not like half-time, like you stop for like half an orange. Like half-time as in... Yeah, okay. No, no. You're not stopping at all, right?

You're not stopping at all. We'll get onto how they make the arcs of them as well later. You're not stopping at all at half-time. You've got... So this is when the backbeat shifts. So it feels slower than it is, but actually the tempo is the same. So it's structurally that makes... it's quite hypnotic.

Yeah. And it has... That's also something you say, this is feeling slower than it is, I promise you. I absolutely promise you that it's actually faster than you think. I accept that you're going to do this all the way through, and I understand that I've forced this item on us, and that's absolutely fine.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Now, repetition, you don't want to particularly have to pay attention to this music. Okay, so repetitive arrangements are good. Say me is good. You do not want any musical surprises to take you out of your moment. Yeah, Bohemian Rhapsody, for example, would be... I mean, that's kind of because you're constantly being distracted. Yeah, it's like six different songs or one.

No, no, thank you. Also, a bit long. Well, we'll get, we'll get to. I think a lot of these people just don't even get listened to. People are asleep by a lot of these artists, but, you know, you have to be honest about the weekend and give him his flowers. Okay, so the R&B is obviously the standout genre. So, as I say, the rhythmic density, so it needs to feel like slower BPM.

Base is key. Base needs to be heavy. Okay. vocal, it's much better if it's like whispery and close to the mic. So, but weirdly, people don't choose non-vocal things. They don't do anything hardly on these lists. People, they want, they overwhelmingly choose vocals. They want vocals.

And they like it close mic, breathy. Asimr. Yeah, ASMR, there's a perceived intimacy. I mean, I'll be honest with you, the lyrics are quite basic and root one. There's a lot of, you know, the titles are, I mean, I mean, really, there's a lot of sweat, swim, sex with me, fetish, dirty, when we, body, or my, okay, all of this, right? Sex with me is really root one. Yeah.

If you're having sex with somebody. Yes, it is quite. But I think that in this department, you know, there's not that much creativity. What I will say is people avoid shuffle, okay? They like to create an entire show arc with these things. So at the beginning, it might be, you know, something, moving. food enhancing, but, you know, by what do I want to call this? The back nine, I don't know, by the back nine, you just want the weekend.

Okay, I understand. I think. Shuffle is a terrible idea because you'll be halfway through. Suddenly there's an audiobook. Rebus was driving across the fourth bridge. Also, by the way, make sure that you have Spotify premiums, because otherwise you get an advert for screw fix in the middle of it. Wow, yes, we love you guys at Spotify, but I would have liked you to have helped with me

with this. Okay, so I read an interesting medical paper on sexual arousal and rhythmic synchronization. You're weak. So I will point, can I just remind you as that Marina is on holiday? I wanted someone to answer my questions, but when they didn't, I had to find it out for myself. So some people did. The music experts were very helpful and the record labels were helpful. Okay, I read this interesting paper on it. They think that music had an ancestral role in courtship displays. Anyway, the thesis of this paper was that neuropeptide vasopressin, this is a social hormone, among other things, that is associated with attachment and responses to partners, again, among other things. That has receptors in the bits of the brain that is involved in music and dance

performance. That bit is called the basal ganglia. Okay. Sorry, the basal ganglia. Yeah, the basal ganglia. Yeah, the basal ganglia. That could be the show episode title. It's concentration rises when men are sexually aroused. And they found that, rhythm of synchronisation seemed to have a significant effect on sexual arousal. They did conclude that more studies were needed and I would, you know, read all of those if they were. I will say, I'll go out on a limb and say, I don't think more studies are needed. I think probably we can get through the rest of human history without.

Okay. But there is also a Pavlovian element to it that people describe, which is why they use the same playlist again and again. Because actually, it gets them in the mood sooner and sooner each time. because, you know, the first chords of something by the weekend are like, okay, right, I know I am now. Yeah, then you're salivating dog. Yeah, yeah. To use the Pavlovian.

To use the... Yeah, it's the ringing of the bell. So, anyhow, so this is, but this is a massive, massive thing. There are huge numbers of these ones. People don't necessarily, because people like to make their own ones. I wanted to talk a little bit about celebrities and that anyone who, We've talked about it since this is an entertainment podcast as well. As well as what, sorry?

As well as something about the basal ganglia. Okay. The rest is basal ganglia? Yeah. They will have been pitched it. Now, celebrities, Jared and Ivanka, Jared Kushner and Ivanka Trump. Oh, no, come on. No, I know.

Trigger warning. Trigger warning, but they... Literally their sex playlist is called trigger warning. She had a... Ivanka has a lot of public playlists. You know, things like walk to... to work running like holiday party 2015. And then this playlist emerged, which was just a 21 minute playlist,

which was like John Legend, Adele, James Blunt and Bruno Mars. And everyone was like, okay, let me have 21 minutes of pure speculation. This is their sex playlist. Okay. James Blunt is, that's a, that's a, yeah, okay. Okay. Okay. Future celebrity traitors star.

Yeah. Yeah. Well, okay, people who have spoken about it, Charlie Pute says he prefers jazz or soul, and he's actually spoken explicitly and said, these are the exact people on my sex playlist. They're like Royce, Miles Davis, that's what he's done. Yeah, okay, that's more acceptable than, who would have thought that he would have a better sex playlist than Ivana Trump?

Ivanka. Ivanka, Ivana's in the golf course now, I'm afraid. Yeah, now the other people who've spoken about it, Kevin Jonas, he's got a podcast, you know, of the Jonas Brothers. He says his playlist is just basically a lot of Michael Boubley because his wife likes it, okay, which is not a stupid idea. No, I get it. And on that podcast, Joe...

Do you think it's a lot of Boubley's Christmas stuff? It's not clear. He didn't specifically, I mean, hopefully at Christmas, yes. But he, I think you could make it seasonal. But again, if you're on shuffle and you're halfway through and suddenly it's beginning to look a lot like Christmas comes on on August 4th. People don't shuffle these things. So if you're on shuffle, you're an amateur.

Right? So Joe Jonas said, but on this podcast, Joe Jonas now said to Kevin Jonas, but hang on, your wife told me that I'm her favourite man, and he was like, yeah, you're not on it for obvious reasons. His brother's band is not on it. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. I can see. Yeah. Well, I mean, I'm not, yeah, I'm sure you can. I'm sure you can. Now, what I think is rather nice to conclude what I'm talking about is that Michael Boubley reciprocated and he said, oh yeah. I mean, mine is just full Jonas brothers all the way because he liked that he had got. shout out in the old Jonas Sex Playlist. In the old Jonas. And it's called the old Jonas Sex Playlist.

Yeah, that thing is the podcast name. So there concludes my tour through this. I mean, it's a genre. It's a genre. The weekend is by far and away the market leader by a million miles. And the economics of it are huge, right? I mean, there's a huge amount of money. But we've talked before about

about playlists and automatic placement on playlists and how when you're on one playlist, suddenly you get put on five or six others. And as you say, there's a lot of stuff on these playlists that is going on after people to fall in asleep. Yeah. Hey, it's a stream. Yeah.

Title my sex playlist. And yeah, so you're literally making money while people are asleep. There's lots of niche ones as well. So, you know, we all get the weekend and all that kind of stuff is the cliche. But there's like heavy metal sex playlists. Yeah. Listen, I get it. It's whatever you want, which by the way, includes.

Gloryhole by Steel Panther and Sulfur Injection by Apostasy. I would never shame anyone for any of that, I don't think. Oh, I'm not shaming anyone for anything. I'm just reading out some funny song titles. There's classical, but you talked about people wanting lyrics and they're very sort of close to the mic stuff. There are loads of classical sex playlists as well. That's sort of nice that those people exist in the world, isn't it? The most popular one, which has got over a quarter of a million listeners,

starts with, I mean, you won't be surprised. No one listening will be surprised at this. Starts with Chikovsky's piano concerto and D major. Sure, of course. Absolute textbook stuff. There's also one, by the way, called Lechmick in Arche by Mozart, which I have not wanted to translate, but it's on there anyway.

Because in the old days before sex playlists, because can we just take it into a slightly cuter route for a moment? For sure. Mix tapes used to be such a huge thing. I don't even like mixtapes in the kind of, you know, dance scene. But that thing of making a mixtape for somebody on like a C90 cassette, and of course that's not a thing that exists anymore. But I'm assuming that kids are making playlists for each other these days,

making curated playlist and sending them to hopeful paramours. I really hope so. I need to hear reports back of this, but I'm sure they will. Yes, yes. Every mixtape I made as a teenager might as well have been called. I think you're more likely to go out with me if you really understood how much I like the House Martins. That was essentially that. I've also, just to put a tin lid on the thing, I've made the worst possible sex playlist. Yes. If you want to hear it. Oh yeah, I want to hear it. And it doesn't include napalm deaths one second long, you suffer. So this is my, the worst possible, or maybe most ironic sex plays you can ever have.

Mr. Soft by Steve Harley. Are you in by Incubus? Oops, little mix. Over too soon, small faces. Is that it by Hank Sanders? Sorry about that, alkaline trio. What was that, Lord? Sorry again, Velocity Girl.

You're better than that by Plug, I know, by Fiona Apple. Let me try again by Frank Sinatra. I've got work in the morning by Pizza Tramp. I understand by Freddy and the Dreamers. And we end with the Brian Berghardt band. I'll call you a cab. Oh, I want someone to make that and put it on Spotify, but not put your name in the title.

No. Please, just one of our listeners, would you please make love to that playlist? Thank you. And report back to us how it went. Thank you. That's a parosocial relationship, isn't it? In the world, though, where audio

is such a big deal. Do you think people are making love to audiobooks? It's really interesting because someone just sent me a thing saying that the heated rivalry guys, you know, I hate to talk about them, the heated rivalry guys have done something on an app that I've yet to download, but I think as quite a specialist. And it's, I think they played two princes for neighboring kingdoms. Someone told me that the sound effects were like off the chain. So I don't know whether people, I don't know, I haven't listened to it and I need to listen to Hudson Williams and Connor's story on this story of two princes who live next door to each other.

Is that what it's called, two princes who live next door to each other? No, it's not. I can't remember what it's cool. I think the app is called Quinn that I have to get, but I haven't actually downloaded. As I say, I've got very bad Wi-Fi. I would bet pretty much any money that I have that somebody out there or a couple out there will have made love. while listening to The Restis Politics, don't you think? With Alastair and Rory, we're talking about Andy Burnham's transport policy, which, by the way, is not detailed enough of me. It's quite possible. It's quite possible. I, yeah.

Our DMs are open. Well, that was exhaustive, Marina. Thank you for your service. You're welcome. It's much appreciated. Shall we go to some adverts? We can't, because Joey, our producer, has just given me a piece of paper with an absolutely incredible detail on it.

Okay. Someone once emailed Goalhanger to say that they had sex during Rory and Alistair's interview with Jerry Adams. No way. Oh, yes. Oh, yes. That is quite a specialist. That must have been a good Friday. I can't do.

All of mine are too unacceptable. I can't do them. Wow. I mean, that is, do you think that they were, they put it on especially, or it was it was just on as the evening progressed? I don't think of Jerry Adams as an insta, Aphrodisiac, so it's so difficult, and neither is acceptable. You put it on or you, or it gets you in the mood? I'm so sorry, I said we wouldn't rush to any judgment, but I just want to say, I'm judging. Yeah.

I mean, honestly, the rest is history on Cicero, I get. That's absolutely fine. Yeah. But Rory and Alice are talking to Jerry Adams. Wow. I think we have to go to a break now. I need to have a moment. We have a lot to think about over these adverts.

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With Wayfair, there's no what if. Just style you love and quality you can trust. Visit Wayfair.ca. Every style, every home. Welcome back, everybody. Now, we are going to talk about Ariana Grande, which is such a difficult conversation. She's been very, very thin for a long time, and she's just announced that she's sort of withdrawing from public life for an unspecified amount of time because the attention

this gets, although she doesn't explicitly refer to it, but that's what it is, is overwhelming. And as I say, it's a difficult conversation, but I think it is one, you. have to have. Yeah, to discuss, exactly. I think talking about women's bodies in general is so difficult. It's difficult to say whether there is a right answer or not, and we'll kind of get through it. But a background, Ariana Grande, she came to fame as a child star on Nickelodeon. And then she became a pop star. Obviously, the Manchester bombing happened at an Ariana Grande concert. I mean, just truly beyond horrific. And she returned to acting. And she, um, she, has Fokker-in-law coming up, but most

particularly she returned in Wicked, and it was during the promotional tour for both sort of halves of that, that it was clear that she was very, very thin. But she came back as a pop star this summer, and that was slightly unexpected. She did a 42-date tour, the Eternal Sunshine Tour,

supporting that last album, but the new album Petal is out. And the video for that title track in particular does seem almost deliberately shot to highlight her frailty and her thinness. And, you know, it's gone completely viral. Obviously, the way that some people talk about it is so repulsive. It really reminds me of the naughties and the way that incredibly thin women then, who obviously all had major eating disorders,

were spoken about without any form of humanity, just a sort of like a sort of freak show. And anyway, it's interesting. The platforms have tried to pull back on. this stuff because we know that sort of pro-anorexia content, pro-any of this sort of stuff, they have tried to pull back. TikTok and places have tried to put guard rails in place, aren't they? I mean, the trouble is with all of those platforms, if this is something that you are desperately seeking out, you will find a way around that. But they are, they're trying at least, they're recognising that it's an issue that

teens especially are trying to look at content about anorexia eating disorders and things like that and they're actively seeking it out. But I felt that they couldn't even beat it in this case. It's like this is such a tidal wave that it is beaten the algorithm. You can't move on all the different platforms for seeing people talking about it. And anyway, so one of her representatives has said that she will be taking a step back from visibility after her tour because of the public-facing work and appearances have led to endless ongoing public scrutiny.

And this is what this is about. It's about nothing else. So even things that she was going to do, like she was, I mean, a really big show they were doing with Jonathan Bailey, who's her wicked co-star.

Sunday in the park with George, right, she was going to do, which would have been incredible. Unbelievable. She's not doing that. And it's, I absolutely think that the discourse

is completely relentless on it. And a massive percentage of it is completely without humanity. Yeah. As you say, there's, there's an interesting thing in the middle of this,

which is, you know, we are strongly anti-de-de-leasing of, women's bodies and appearances and things like that and that's an important part of our culture. But equally, if we do think there's something dangerous in the middle of our culture, which actually adds to the issues of being a teen of either gender, then, you know, do you speak up? And so I think a lot of people are suddenly on the horns that have a dilemma as to whether

this is something they want to talk about. Yeah. And certainly whether they want to use her as a poster girl for it, because that feels unfortunate as well. but it's impossible to look at some of the ways that she is portrayed without thinking about this issue, without thinking about, you know, without speaking about it. And certainly anyone with teenage children, you're like, well, I mean, this feels like an opportunity to have a conversation,

but you don't want to put it all on Ariana Grande. Yeah, it's very difficult, you know, and we live in a world where people have very impressionable children and teenagers who follow and idolize these people. And a lot of people have disclosed eating disorders. orders in the past. You know, everyone, Taylor Swift, Victoria Beckham, Kesha, all these different people.

And I've said this quote so many times before in this podcast, but, you know, no snowflake considers itself part of the avalanche. And everyone saying a comment doesn't really, you can't imagine how difficult it must be to be her at the middle of it all. In 2023, Arianna Grande said

we should be gentler and less comfortable commenting on people's bodies. However, I have to say, I am of the view that some comment is, as you sort of hint, morally required sometimes. And it's incredibly complex. You know, I had an eating disorder myself in my early 20s. It's, you know, they really thrive on secrecy. I do think that the sort of body positivity is quite a simplistic creed. And it's not, it's not one of those things. Everyone could, there was a point, you know, in a few years ago,

when people said, oh, it's very, very simple. We just, it's, we just celebrate everybody. And I'm afraid that I, you know, that's too simplistic, really. And health and example, whether asked to be an example or not, does matter. You don't get it, anorexia, from women being thin and models being thin, or all the things that in the past of people have said, but it's born of lots and lots of complex things, but it's particularly a desire to control an overwhelming world. They do make it worse.

These images like this and all of this, So I think you do have to talk about it, but it's very, very hard. Obviously, some of the ways that some people talk about it, where it's just some sort of joke and you're literally joking about someone who may or may not be very ill. That's completely unhelpful. I do think, obviously, everyone has to leave her alone now. But I don't think you should leave the issues raised alone. And it's very, very hard for people to get help in both here and in the US.

and I think you have to talk about these things and I find it very difficult. It's hard. You know, that's the trouble of being a public figure. You are a public figure to some degree and I think it's too simplistic to say we can't discuss it at all because... Yeah, and if you are in a situation as a teen or even younger or older where you are looking for some sort of control and your life has spiraled and you can see the examples in culture of very, very thin women,

that is an avenue you think, oh, maybe that's a way. maybe that feels like something I can control. And so, as you say, it's not the fault of a thin woman that other people become anorexic, but having that example out there at all gives you an avenue. It gives you a, you know, I mean, I've spoken a lot about my disordered eating. And that started when I was very young, nine or ten. And it comes from, well, what can you control when you're nine or ten or twelve or thirteen? Not an awful lot is the truth.

But one thing you can control usually is food. That's the one thing that, you know, whether it's eating more of it or eating less of it. It's a very, very simple thing to control when you're a kid when you can't control almost anything else. And so I do think it's important we talk about it. As you say, Ariana Grande, it's fascinating because of course she denies that she has an issue. But when you're talking about all those women who have, you know, later admitted that they had issues, they all denied it at the time because you do deny it at the time. That's not her, nothing, she's not doing anything wrong by denying it.

Of course you deny it because you don't even want to, you don't want to think about it, you don't want to talk about it, you don't want to admit it, you feel shame about it. So she doesn't want to admit it. And that's fine. Maybe in 10 years time, she'll say actually at the time there was an issue. But if we can elevate the debate slightly and just sort of say, we understand in our culture, there are people who are thinner than them. They might be in the manosphere. We talked about, you know, we talked about looks maxing and all that kind of stuff. There are versions of bodies out there which teenagers of any gender can look at, which probably are not the healthiest versions of bodies that they could have. And given that food

is something that kids can control in some way, it's worth having a conversation about it. And it's certainly worth kids being able to talk about it as well. Yeah, I don't think you can ignore it, but you can just choose how you do it. But I think she must be left alone now because that's what she's asked for. Well, listen, we all wish her well. And we, you know, Hopefully there are conversations that can be had. Hopefully some good can come of all of that stuff, and we can all start talking about those things a little bit more. Shall we move on to something?

Should we move on to an exemplar of manhood who's been around for a very, very long time? And that is James Bond. Very good. Yes, James Bond. Now, James Kandogosuriam, who's the brilliant pollster, who I did our vibe shift series with. Yes, by the way, available to member still

that Vibe Shift series. and it was absolutely sensational. Now, James' company, focal data, has done research on what the public want from the next James Bond film, which I think is very, very interesting. And from the next James Bond himself as well. Yes, yes. The headlines of it are, well, should we talk about who the British public want to be James Bond first, because he's done a lot of research into that. And I think it's interesting.

The number one name, we'll do a top three. okay these are these are the three people the British people would most like to be James Bond we've seen all the names that are in the press we've seen that the you know the names at the top of the betting but if you just ask the the public in the UK and the US funnily enough in third place James Norton yep it's been mentioned a lot I absolutely get that in second place Henry Cavill mentioned a lot 21% of people would like Henry Cavill to be James Bond

the top choice across Britain and America to be the next James Bond, Tom Hardy. I mean, I get it. I absolutely get it. I don't think it'll be him, but you can see why people would want Tom Hardy to be James Bond. People are wrong. People are wrong about a lot of things. Yes, but if you look back at every single James Bond that has ever been appointed, not a single one of them would have been chosen by the public, apart from maybe one. Connery definitely would have been chosen by the public, because he was unknown. Roger Moore wouldn't have been chosen by the public. Timothy Dalton would have been chosen by the public, George Lazenby, Daniel Craig definitely wouldn't have been chosen by the public.

They were furious about it at the time. The one person I think the public might have said, this is our guy, is Pierce Brosnan. Yeah. I think he was the right guy at the right time and everyone would have. But the public usually, you have to rely on the film producers to choose someone the public doesn't know they want, right? Yes, but that was such a, we've talked about it a lot before,

but that was Barbara Boccalis called completely the Daniel Craig court. And it's really bullsey because it's like everyone was like, What on earth are you talking about? The second they see Casino Royal, they're like, oh yeah, no, you're right. That is the right call. And also he's a great actor. And that is important if you want to make great films. Okay, right.

James Kanagosoram's research, they've divided the fans of this, which I like about this, they've divided basically the fans of this franchise into tribes. And the tribes are traditionalists. And like they care about, you know, all preserving his traditional values, his classic behaviours, you know, no political correctness, etc. all his vices are there, his seduction style is intact, all of that. They're the biggest segment in the UK. And there are a substantial one.

We're just sort of looking at the UK and the US, really. And they're a substantial one in the US. And they're kind of heavily populated by socially conservative, older right-wing voters, who's, like, they really like the franchise when they feel kind of old school. Next tribe, Patriots. They really care about his British identity, that, you know, the sense of, you know, the sense of duty, blah, blah, national affiliation. They're more prevalent in the UK, obviously, than they would be in the US. And again, they disproportionately include older, more nationally

rooted right of centre voters. And they wanted to keep bond very much the same. This is the next tribe. I'm a little bit of this, but a little bit of the next one after. Classacists. Classacists, they want to have the familiar formulas. They want the structure. They want the leading Man looks. They don't have to be heavily updated. They're kind of like a really solid middle ground in both US and the UK market. They don't want any culture wars in this stuff. Yeah, but they want the classic stuff, but they want you to move it on a little bit to reflect the world as it is. They want Christopher Nolan's Odyssey rather than Homer's Odyssey. Agreed. Then you've got showmen, or show people perhaps.

And now showmen, they care most about the sort of spectacle, the escapist glamour, you know, big action sequences, lots of locations, gadgets, all the stuff, you know, the jokes. And they want the films to be very fun, visually impressive. They're more common in the US than the UK, funnily enough. But they don't care about the absolute traditional bits of bond, you know, the tuxedo and the suavness. and they just want a big Mission Impossible style spectacle. Yeah, and they tend to skew younger. And by the way, young people are the people who go to the cinema most.

A lot of these old people who have a number of views, are you going to see it in the cinema? No, I probably won't. It's a little bit like, it's just like, would you even... However, this is how I want you to make it. This is exactly how I want you to make it. I'm never going to see it. I'll fall asleep in half of it over Christmas in about seven years' time.

Okay, so no. The next one is globalists. They care about all of the kind of, just the kind of locations. They like it to be more modern, cosmopolitan. There's more of them in the US than the UK. And they're more, they're younger, they're outward looking, they're whatever. They're absolutely the sort of people who would have sex while Rory and Alistair talked to Jerry Adams. They're not those people.

Okay, I don't think. Are they not? Who are those people? I would love to know who those people would choose as the next James Bond. Listen, if that was you, don't be intimidated, write in and just give us a tiny bit more detail because there's just not enough quite I know about this, yeah, and as you know, I like to ask a lot of questions. Okay, so let's go back to these people. In the UK, older viewers, C2 voters, they're kind of clustered in traditionalists and patriots,

while classicists are quite popular. Now, the showmen and the globalists, you know, the last two categories that don't really care about, you know, just kind of want it to be big and exciting and fun and hot and what. whatever. They're much more female, younger looking, 18 to 34s, etc. As you say, people will actually go to the cinema. Yeah, but actually you want to get all of those people. You know, we've talked before about like four quadrant movies. Bond isn't a four quadrant movie really, but it's as many quadrants as you always want as many quadrants as you can. And so each of those audiences need different marketing techniques to bring them in. And in your casting,

your concept, your tone, all of that, you need to reach them all in a way, if possible. It's almost like a manifesto. It's so weird this franchise. It's almost like trying to get, you know, putting out an offer to the electorate for government. But it is. I do think it's worth noting that, you know, this data is amazing. But it's worth noting if you are the Bond people and if you are Amazon, they have all of this data as well. They want to make a great film, but they do also want to market to all of these people.

So if you look at who they will eventually choose, if you look at the movie they make, if you look at the script, all these things. They would have had all of this information all the way through. So it's all very well us saying, oh, God, it's so easy to make a bond, do X, Y, or Z. They have got all of this stuff. They know all of these things. They want to make a movie that, as he says, appeals to everybody. They know exactly all these numbers. And often, certainly in a franchise, data can be incredibly important. It's never as important as the creativity of the director and the writer and the actually, that is always paramount, I think, in pretty much any franchise. But all of this will inform their decisions, which is why it's interesting that we have this data as well now.

Yeah, it's really, but it's a little bit like something like the monarchy, where you have to make sure that it can be handed on to the next generation. It's such a weird franchise, as I always say, in the UK, this is really something that's in our bones. You know, we have to get bond right or we're getting something about ourselves wrong. Stop getting bond wrong. Yeah, but if we're getting something quite sort of elemental about ourselves wrong. And so there's certain things that are like this kind of national bellwethers and it's like, oh, you know, is M&S underwear good at any one given time? You know, have Man United got a strong bat for? Or our institutions failing? This is like one of those things. It's sort of

totemic in a weird way. Well, it was fascinating recently that, God, they do polling on everything, that all the world's security services voted on who the best security service in the world was. and MI6 came top by like a mile, by like an absolute mile, in terms of the ones that was admired most by the rest of the world. And that is, of course, not chiefly because of Bond, but a part of that is because the brand is so incredible. And that's Bond and that's Britain. And there is something about Bond that is absolutely deep within our national psyche.

But we have to recognise that, for example, in America, they couldn't care less about any of that stuff. No, but we have to now talk about it. It's very interesting. Okay. Across every one of those tribes that I have mentioned, Tom Hardy and Henry Cavill

come out on top. There's something about those, they believe that they identify, kind of have this core identity of bond and that they embody it. So with the traditionalists, with the classicists, with everyone,

they all sort of agree. There are miles out in front on this one. I mean, I think they're totally wrong. They're too old. By the way, There's one interesting rinkard in that. So Tom Hardy is ahead of Henry Cavill. If you just look at Americans,

it's just Americans, and Henry Cavill is actually the first choice to play Bond. America, you're wrong about this and some other stuff as well. But Henry Cavill's 43. I think he's too well for it. But the next one's down, it's interesting, like James Norton, Richard Madden. Again, they're not going to go for Richard Madden.

After that, there's no younger ones doing anything more than 2%. So you've got Callum Turner, Aaron Taylor Johnson, you've got quite negative ones like Jacob Allaudy. Now he's... Well, I was going to say, so this is like the popularity thing, which is you take the amount of people who like them and you minus the amount of people who don't like them. That's why it's possible to get a minus score.

So Tom Hardy's score of 28 is the amount of people like him minus the amount of people who don't like him equals 28. So there's a person on zero who I've been told it's going to be the next James Bond, by the way. I know. I'm going to let you get to him. Okay. Jacob Allaudy, who's one of the people, He's very negative. He's 29.

Years old. Yeah, years old, yes. And Callum Turner is 36. I think that's, you know, anyway, you do want Bonn to be a little bit older, but they could do something different. It's whether or not they take that big punt. But anyway, you tell us about your latest. Yeah, so as I say, you know, the scores are the amount of people who think you're great, minus the amount of people who think you are not great. we absolutely have to take into account that the public would have been wrong on every single bond ever appointed, apart from maybe Pierce Brosnan.

And so it's down to the producers. Yes, but the name I heard, and we, you know, different people here, different things. The name I heard is Jack Loudon. Yeah. River Car, right in Slow Horses, and it was Kenny Noy in gold. And is such a brilliant actor. It can be funny. Can definitely do action.

And I mean, I think he'd be sensational. It is definitively not a he's definitely got it thing. It's just someone, he is definitely being strongly considered. I think he'd be amazing. He's 36. That's a good age. You have to have the longevity. They've got to do at least two movies.

And he's a good age for it. You know, some of the others have you mentioned are too old. Yeah, I think you have, amid 30s. And funnily enough, the polling by focal data says how old should Bond be. And it's all, I think the average age at Bond should be is 30. But the average age for a bond girl is 33. They think that he should be 37 and his girlfriend should be about four years younger. That's what the public thing.

But yeah, I think I think Jack Loudon would be an incredible bond, don't you think? He'd be great. Yeah, for sure. He's got real Daniel Craig energy. Yes, but definitely can do the jokes. The jokes are essential. They're not taking it too seriously as well. I don't, yeah, he's, it's, Daniel Craig takes it, took it, you know, slightly seriously by the end.

But he's always, but you can see he's got a slight, yeah, there's, there's always a slight twinkle in Daniel Craig's eye. If we accept that, uh, that humor is important part of Bond, I mean, which of these actors can really, really do comedy? Which of them, which of them have done comedy? It's quite hard going down that list to find proper, you know, actors with comic chops. Yeah, Callum Tanner's in a rom-com at the moment, but it hasn't done very well. well. Yes, which I think is interesting. I opened last week to not much, which won't do them any favours in this race, I don't think. No, but then I, you know, I mean, it's not,

I don't think it's going to be Tom Hardy. I don't think those stories out of mobland were particularly helpful either because you just need everyone to be very easy to deal with. I'm not saying he isn't, it seems like so many egos on that show, I've got my own theories as to what the real problem is and I don't think it's Tom Hardy necessarily,

but none of that's helpful because it's such a It's such a sort of huge thing and you really need everyone to be lowest friction possible. It's interesting actually that they also do, they've done the data on who the Britain's, Britain and America's favourite ever bond was and it absolutely splits exactly as you think, which is older viewers, it's Sean Connery, younger viewers, it's Daniel Craig, and there's somewhere in the middle, they sort of merge into the two. But those two are absolutely streets ahead of everyone else. But there are a lot of people who answer George Lasonby.

Yes, weirdly. I can't, as I said, people are very wrong about things. Well, the 35 to 44 cohort is the one that's absolutely split down the middle between three of them. So, as I say, Connery, when you're above 44, is everyone. If you're under 35, everyone is Daniel Craig. But 35 to 44 is absolutely split between just Connery, just wins by one point from Daniel Craig and then by two points from Pierce Brosner. So that bit is very, very close.

But everyone else, you're either Connery or your Craig. It's like everyone's favorite Doctor Who is whoever was Doctor Who when you were growing up or David Tenant. Okay, but the humour should be part of it. Like, I have a lot of respect for the way that Roger Moore could say hiss off to a snake. Yes. I would not mind seeing a little bit more of that next time around. Yeah, and Jetland could do that because Roger Moore's my favourite Bond, because he was my first bond, you know, and that's just when I grew up.

So, you know, funnily enough, they talk about what has to be in a bond movie to all these respondents. And absolutely top of it, 70% of people said gadgets. So gadget is the single most important. Because gadgets, exotic locations, dry humour. I think, I mean, if that's not the perfect recipe for a film, what is? What is? And Brits and Americans tend to agree on. I just thought this is an interesting, just a final little thing.

so dry humor, seduction, drinking, womanising, all these things people want to be in the Bond movies. The place where Brits and Americans differ the most is gambling. So Brits don't really are not that fuss about gambling being in a Bond movie. Americans really, really, really want it. America has gone absolutely insane for gambling in the last five years. They have. They've gone insane. I just saw the Polymarket and Kalshi, which are, you know, the sort of not supposedly not betting sites.

prediction markets Richard prediction markets they're both worth over 20 billion dollars now America has literally lost its mind for gambling it just lost its mind anyway and they want more of it in bond but but thank you very much to James and to focal data thank you but I do think the interesting thing is is that the bond franchise people have all of this information already they've got all of this data they know all of this stuff and so when you think about the decisions they've got to make my god they that there's a lot on their shoulders and I imagine that new names will emerge and there's many twists in this story yet. And if you want more Bond, we are currently recording our series,

which is the definitive history of James Bond, starting right from Ian Fleming all the way through. We're having such a lot of fun doing it. It is for members, but the very first episode is out this week, and that is free for everybody. And it's about Ian Fleming. Oh, God, I loved recording that episode so much. So it's about Ian Fleming and the very, very beginnings of Bond.

So you can listen to that for free and lots of details there about how to join our membership thing as well for ad free listening and all that stuff. But yes, the definitive history of James Bond is on its way for members and this week only for non-members too. Any recommendations, Marina?

What I wanted to be able to recommend this week was Richard Usman's We Chase Shadows. But let me tell you what's happened to this book, which I bought with me. I bought two books with me. It was immediately taken from me by Kieran, who said, Like honestly, yeah, by costume. By the first three pages, Kira was like, oh my God, his tone is amazing. He's just nailed.

Absolutely loved it. The second he finished it, my daughter has taken it. Not spoken to me for 24 hours. Not in a bad mood. So I haven't yet, but I can tell you that it is going down an absolute storm with the people I'm with. Oh, thank you. So I'm reading my other book. I'm reading my other book. Which is? Oh, you're going to love this. Oh, God. I am reading On War by Karl von Klausovitz, which is a seminal early 19th century.

By the way, a treatise on military strategy and history, I couldn't be loving it more. It's like a self-help book, but not rubbish. And it's, yeah, I'm learning how to vanquish my enemies. 99.9% of listeners to this podcast, and even that's conservative, don't buy this book because you will be more on earth has she given me. I literally couldn't love it more. You might be the only person in the world taking those two books on holiday. Yeah, I think so.

I'm also planning to invade the territories to the East of Prussia in September, and I don't want to mess it up. So I would like to recommend On War by Carl von Klausovitz. Any recommendations, Richard? Yes, I'm listened to, actually, though you can read it, the collection of David Siddharis pieces called The Land and Its People. And I would, listen, I'd recommend buying it. because he's so brilliant, but particularly the audiobook, because you get to hear and read it out live in fright of an audience, so you get to hear the reaction.

And he's so funny. It's so effortlessly funny. Of course, he's not effortlessly funny. It takes an enormous amount of effort. But there's a humor to it that is a bit like other people's, but it's not like anyone in particular. He just has a very, very special voice. He's amazing. Some of his jokes are just, and I mind no one more in the world than some of him.

who can really tell a proper joke that no one's ever told before. And he is amazingly good at that. So it's The Land and it's People by David Sedaris. Right. I think that wraps us up for today. We will obviously be back tomorrow with the first one of our Bond series. It is really cool. It's such fun.

We're doing a few more Q&As as well, which we're looking for our listeners to send in questions. I'm going to be interviewing John Grisham. I love John Grisham so much. So if you have any questions for John Grisham, please send them in to the Restors Entertainment at Gollhanger. com and also we'll be interviewing the new hosts of Strictly so Josh Whitakum, Johannes Radibi and Emma Willis. So if you've got any questions for them, then same address.

Restors Entertainment at Gollhanger.com. So John Grisham, any questions about, you know, his writing methods, any questions about the movie adaptations, anything like that, any questions about being virtually the bestselling author of all time? I'm sure he'll answer all of those. and anything for Josh Whitacom, Emma Woodison and Johannes Reddibi, please. And other than that, we'll be back on Thursday for our questions and answers. See you on Thursday. Hello, everyone. We've got some exciting news to share with listeners of the Restors Entertainment. We do indeed. We are holding a summer sale so you can become a member of the club for a third of the regular price.

That's right. With the Code Summer 26, you can head to the Restorsentertainment.com and claim an annual membership with this brilliant discount. So if you want to spend your summer listening to us discussing celebrity drama behind the scenes stories and industry gossip but have none of the ads and why wouldn't you? It is a no-brainer. Plus you can catch up with all of the archive of our members-only shows you may have missed including Marina's latest series of Vib Shift. And we've got lots more of those special series planned. But remember, this deal will only run until the end of August. So don't wait around. Head to the rest isentertainment.com now. Hey, I'm Kelly Clarkson with Wayfair. Ever order furniture online and wonder what if, like what if it doesn't hold up?

That sofa was four days old. You should have ordered from Wayfair. With Wayfair, there's no what-if. Just style you love and quality you can trust. Visit Wayfair.ca. Wayfair, every style, every home.