The Rest Is Entertainment - Simon Cowell on Regrets, Fame and Fatherhood

Episode Date: December 18, 2025

One of the most influential figures in British television, Simon Cowell joins Richard and Marina to discuss his new Netflix talent competition - The Next Act. In a tense exchange, they discuss X-Factor, duty of care, becoming a TV villain, and Bernard Cribbins telling him to piss off. Whether you’re hosting or guesting this Christmas, you need the UK’s best mobile network and broadband technology, only from EE. Join The Rest Is Entertainment Club: Unlock the full experience of the show – with exclusive bonus content, ad-free listening, early access to Q&A episodes, access to our newsletter archive, discounted book prices with our partners at Coles Books, early ticket access to live events, and access to our chat community. Sign up directly at therestisentertainment.com For more Goalhanger Podcasts, head to www.goalhanger.com Video Editor: Joey McCarthy Assistant Producer: Imee Marriott Senior Producer: Joey McCarthy Social Producer: Bex Tyrrell Exec Producer: Neil Fearn Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

This episode is presented by E.E. Marina, are you hosting or guesting for Christmas this year? Normally, every other year I am a very grateful guest, but I'm now a slightly trepidacious host. Yes, it is me in the apron having a meltdown over all the cooking. No, I don't think I'll have a meltdown. It's a lot, isn't it? Yeah. But you have to just keep saying to yourself, it's just a big chicken. Just a big chicken.

It's just a really big chicken. It's just a really enormous chicken. We are also hosting this year, looking forward to it very much. If you are hosting, and E.E. has the best broadband technology. If you are guesting, then E.E has the best mobile technology. And my goodness, you need it at Christmas, right? Yes, the third babysitter, the distractor. Just when the family walk into the house is, hello grandma, hello granddad. What's the Wi-Fi password?

I might need that. Yeah. Get the best connectivity for your home and your phone with EE. And if you're guesting, lucky you, E.E has the best mobile network to keep you connected to music, maps and backseat streaming for the kids when you're travelling. Search EEE does more. Hello and welcome to this special episode of The Resters Entertainment with me Marina Hyde. And me, Richard Osman.

Hello, Marina. Hello, Richard. So it's a Q&A episode. It is. But we're not answering the questions. We have a special guest in the studio. Our guest today is Mr Simon Cal, who is probably the most significant television producer of this century. I would say.

Certainly would have a claim to it. I think it's impossible to think of someone who was more significant. I think people think of your music industry figure, but you are literally the behemoth of television in the last 25 years, Simon. Well, I kind of jumped on it. I didn't sort of start all these ideas. I heard about it. And I just thought, I described it like a train.

Jump on the train because it's going to happen. So we've got to be a part of it in some way. And that was really it. you weren't just a part of it, you then took it over. But that's good, which is impressive. We will get on to all of that, I'm certain. So I do a little posseid history of Simon's back back. Okay.

Is this actually true? You were a runner on The Shining. No, I tried to be, but Stanley Kubrick, the director, don't ask me why, wouldn't hire runners. It must have been a superstition. So I couldn't even get a job for like £11 a week as a runner on the Shining. Happily, you then landed in the EMI mailroom, EMI, a record label, which we have to explain for people of our younger. Well, it was actually EMI music publishing, but you're right.

It was all sort of, yeah, the music business, yes. You then had your own label, which went bust in one of many life lessons for yourself. I know you like to teach yourself life lessons. You went to BMG, did A&R. There were a lot of novelty records at that time, which was kind of against the grain of a decade. But you signed Robson and Jerome, who were two guys who were in a TV show. called Soldier Soldier, and they had an enormous hit with Unchained Melody. But then the chapter of your life that most people will know you, it's because you became front of house, you became a judge

on a new show called Pop Idol, which attempted to find a kind of recording artist. That was the moment you went stratospheric. You became a completely sort of different type of figure. You were mean, you were imperious, you were, you know, you were the puppet master in many ways. And that's when you thought perhaps I can own this, rather than being that on someone else's thing, you thought you could make it for yourself. You created the X Factor, Britain's got talent. You had the biggest shows on both sides of the Atlantic. Well, it's always been a summer show mainly.

So it's, you know, over the years, I mean, I think, yeah, we did our 20th anniversary last year. And it has remained the number one summer show. Yeah. So, yeah, yeah. So, but your new Netflix show, Simon Cowell, The Next Act, is about you, and it's about you putting a boy band together, is that right way to categorise it? That's it. Good title, by the way. How would you like it?

I think it's really, really smart. We are going to get onto it because we both just watched all of it. Did you? Yes, we did indeed. We've watched it all. Let's start, shall we, with just some crowd-pleasing stuff. Okay, we'll start with X Factor. As Marina said, you started on Pop Idol, which was a...

you and Simon Fuller put together, you then morphed that into X Factor, which you cleverly owned a lot more of. But the question is not about the finances of the things. The question is from Fraser. Which season of the X Factor was your favourite, not as a producer, but personally. Oh.

It's a nice gentle start, isn't it? Yes, a nice start. I think Leona Lewis is yet, because that was the first time, honestly, when she sang summertime, I'll never forget that, where I genuinely thought, oh my God, we found, you know, from the UK a global star. I really did feel that in the moment. And she's the nicest person in the world.

I mean, really an absolutely great person. So I think that has to be my favourite. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I've obviously liked other seasons. Is that the best single? Is that the best single? I think it was.

Bleeding love. Yeah. One of my favorites, actually, yeah. Actually, it was written. A moment in time was the winner's single. Yeah, but yeah, but then Bleeding Love came afterwards. And actually, Bleeding Love, believe it or not, was written for a guy. And I got the demo.

And one of my A&R people said, you know, we've got this crowd, that's great song, and we're going to give it to a male singer. I said, no, it's a female song. Listen to the lyrics. It's amazing. And you've got to have a fantastic voice to sing this. So we persuaded Ryan Tedder, the writer, to allow Leona. And I'll never forget, when I got her version, it was like goosebumps.

I mean, serious goosebumps. And yeah, anytime, it's one of it. It is actually a timeless, you know, here, I think. So Fraser's question, which is interesting with this, I'll ask you personally, rather than as a producer, you know, when you're talking about Leona there, it strikes me, you're in a position. So you come from music and suddenly you're in TV and it's going, music has gone very, very well for you.

You've proved yourself time and time again. You had hits. TV is suddenly going well for you because you're proving yourself, you're having hits, but you're also on screen. So, Leona Lewis, when you're in that position, how much of you is thinking as a TV producer, I've got a hit on my hands,

how much of you is thinking as a music producer, I've been in this place before and something extraordinary is happening, and how much of you is thinking I'm in a new world here which is I'm on camera people know who I am and this show is doing something for me personally as well

so how was that having those sort of three balls in the air at once? I'd done well I said no to going on these shows initially and then the deal was in the UK and America I would do the first season of both to kind of hopefully sort of get it where I wanted to

and then I would take a step back and then because the shows were doing well the money was good I'm going to be honest with you and I just said okay fine and actually I didn't have a problem being well known because everyone I met

honestly were just really nice people and because I'm quite I still am I'm quite shy but my biggest nightmare is going to you know the pre-party before the sit-down party where you've got to stand up and make conversation with people you don't know

So when I wasn't well known, being in that position, I couldn't actually handle it. Even now, to this day, when I go to like a function, I say to Lauren, let's sit in the car. And when I know everyone sat down, I'll go in because then I'm fine. I just always have had problems. So in a long, so I'm waffling here. No, no, it's great. But my point was I didn't actually found being well known good in some ways. Because it became a form of being able to control situations.

Well, it's like it was. You couldn't perhaps control before. Yeah, it was a good icebreaker. So, you know, people would say, you know, oh, I like your show, I like that artist. So we immediately had something in common. And, you know, because I'd constantly said to artists, you know, before, if you have a problem, you know, meeting people after you're famous, then don't do this because it's going to happen. And I remember being about seven when I asked someone for their autograph and he told me to piss off. Oh, who was that?

It was Bernard Cribbins. Are you kidding me? I swear. And, you know, because of National Treasure. Not anymore. And he told me to piss off. It was the ideal home exhibition or something. So, you know, I went over, like really star-struck.

Oh, can I have an autograph? And he literally said, piss off. I don't know if he's still alive. He's not. I'm afraid. Okay, well, good. I'll say it. He told me to piss off.

And I was really upset. Anyway, so I thought, okay, the deal is, obviously, if I'm going to do this and become well-known, I can't then moan if someone wants to come up and say hi or have a picture, whatever. I mean, I've never had a problem actually with that, ever. And you've worked with a lot of famous people behind the scenes. Did that taught you anything about fame that you found useful? I mean, everybody who had come to me, whether it was via my labels before I made. the shows or came on the show, they all had one thing in common. Well, actually, two things actually.

Mostly it was having a successful music career. Or in some cases, I just want to be famous. So we had both. And you'd always sit with them beforehand and go, you know, there is something that comes with it, lack of privacy. And you've got to deal with it. Yeah. And if you don't like that, then I suggest become an accountant.

or a gardener or something where no one knows who you are and you won't have that problem. We were talking about executive producing. You're an executive producer on the new documentary and something that's interesting about the newer documentary in comparison

maybe to the things you've done before is that I think that you've identified the fact that authenticity and a certain amount of rawness is in the ascendancy now and in all the ascendant media those are the popular things that people want to,

to see. I wonder if that is achievable when you're the executive producer of your own documentary. Oh, that's a good question. I went to a company who makes drive to survive because I like that series. Box to box. And I thought it would be interesting because they've mainly done non-music things. And then I met the executive producer, a lady called Cassie, who I really light. And we kind of had an agreement with essentially whatever happens we are going to have to show. Because if we're going to show the real story from start to finish, there's going to be bumps. And unfortunately, there were more than bumps. There were some really terrible things. So the real story. So this show is called the next act. It's essentially you putting together a

boy band in the same way that you might have done on X Factor. But we're at home with you. We see a little bit more of the process, a little bit more of the business side of things. Yeah. So it is like an X factor, but through the kind of prism of a documentary, essentially. Yeah, I just wanted to tell and show the story of what I actually used to do even before I was on TV, when I used to put bands together, you know, it sounds corny doing, saying that, but actually you've got to be a catalyst to find talented people and decide actually that person with that person.

And it doesn't become times two, it becomes times 100 if you get it right. So you've got to find those people, persuade them, because most people want to be a solo artist. And you kind of got to convince them. It will be a great way to start your career by being in a band. And fun, by the way. So we just decided, okay, fine. Then whatever happens, there'll be cameras everywhere. So would you show it?

So in the first episode, you're talking about how to sort of reach your market and what's the best tool to reach your market. And you say, oh, I think it's radio and then there's a billboard. Now, I think like almost every listen to this podcast knows now that those things don't move the dial anymore. Did you really think that radio and billboard was the best way to reach your market? Because, of course, we get the turn halfway through the episode where you think, oh my goodness, we're going to have to do something completely different to what I've done before, something modern. Did you really think that radio was the best way to meet them? Well, I thought it was a good start, you know, when we talked about it. You know, it was a pretty big poster I was going to put up, you know.

And you authentically believed that they would be reachable via poster. Well, I thought it was a good start. Good start to the documentary. Yeah. Well, no, I actually thought we'd get a lot of people applying. I actually did think that. But then also in the back of my mind, it was I know how many people drop out, you know, when you cast for anything.

There's a big dropout. So at the moment in the documentary, and, you know, when I actually said, well, after putting up this huge post of doing a lot of radio, how many people have actually applied? And actually, the biggest issue really was the website, which was created. The website was like trying to log into Apple TV times a million. It was so complicated. And I thought, why are we making it so different? So let's do social media. Heard of it.

Yeah, a lot. And actually, about 60 more radio interviews. So it was a bit of both, really, just so we could get the numbers above 1,000. That's what was my goal. I need over 1,000 people to apply. Because if we don't, I don't think we're going to have a chance. Yeah, I think what Marina is getting out here, and I do think I've watched all of it, and you are brilliant at what you do. And the band, it feels to me, I mean, they're great.

Thank you. I mean, genuinely. Oh, cheers. They seem great. But what I thought I was going to watch was something a bit that had more authenticity, if that makes sense. And I think you're so brilliant at controlling narrative and understanding what people want and understanding how to give it to them that I wondered if you execting that show meant that we missed out on some genuine authenticity.

because I felt a number of times there were moments where you were saying, oh, this is a big problem. I don't know what's going to happen here. And I thought, I think you do know what's going to happen here. And listen, it's very, very watchable. Richard, pinky-thummy, I didn't. Okay. I absolutely didn't.

I was living and I was in a bit of a bubble. I had a gut feeling that we've got to check the number. So I wasn't going to go into this without. Not even just this bit, but throughout, there are a number of moments where I'm thinking, this is much more X-factor than I thought it was going to be. And by the way, that's absolutely fine because... Well, I promise you, it was all genuine.

What you see is what happened, and there weren't any second takes. So, when we're talking about the audition process, as an example, very good acoustic in those glass offices. I was amazed. I thought it was wonderful. So when you're doing those auditions, what you say, which of course you never said on X factor and those. previous shows where you were much more the kind of impresario and the controller of all of them.

What you say is there's a filter room and then people, the good ones are sent through to me. And when that was done, I thought, oh, great, because that's good. Because we all know that's the case. That's behind the scenes. That's some authenticity. Yeah. But then why did we see some rather unfortunate, less talented people much in the way that we always used to in that sort of slight X-factor theatre of cruelty way where we just get to laugh

at them because they're useless and you get to be quite rude to them. There were, what happened was we didn't know how many people were going to turn up. So normally on say Got Talent, I know there's X amount of people per day. On this, we didn't know. So on the first morning, it was so nerve-wracking that until it was about 1230 when I could leave my hotel and go to the venue because at that point it was raining and no one had turned up. So I thought this is going to be really, really humiliating. And then, because I have a cut off at 8 o'clock, I'm just my brain's fried beyond 8. So I said, look, we're going to cut off at 8,

which means we're going to try and see everyone. So we set up 3 or 4, as you said, filter rooms. There were a couple of filter rooms who were sending people through who they thought were good and I thought were terrible. But by the edit, I appreciate by 8 o'clock that evening. you know that you're not sure you've got to shoot enough coverage so that you've got some stuff. But by the time of the edit, perhaps you didn't need to show the unfortunately untalented ones at all. But perhaps it wouldn't be an authentically you show if you didn't. Well, that is the reality with auditions is that I've always gone with about half a percent, if you're lucky, if the people you see are going to be good.

and so there were some not so good people and so yeah I mean I suppose it was a decision to show the kind of people who turned up and some of them weren't very good right I see and you have a glint in your eye I can see because it reminded me and I think I expect you and one thing that we have had lots of questions about from lots of different listeners actually is duty of care Yes. And the vibe shift between X Factor where initially you would have the auditions and then I think it became so successful that kind of the theatre of the audition process that eventually you moved it to a, you know, it was live and you had an audience watching auditions. Yeah. But I think that we all detect a vibe shift since then that you would have a, I wonder how your view of duty of care has evolved over.

Oh, a lot. I mean, we've always tried as much as we can to love. look after our artists. I mean, you send them out into what I call the real world with as much advice as you possibly can, with you hope, great managers around them. I always partnered with a big label, BMG, Sony, so I had a massive infrastructure. I was a tiny little cog in their company. So I made money in the same way as the artist did. I got paid a royalty. The artist got paid a royalty and yes when you um sometimes the manager would bring an artist to me in the main we would take artists to management hoping that they would be looked after not ripped off

and prepared and then over the over time whether it's discussions about mental health and and duty of care that has become much more something we think about talk about and acknowledge. I mean, that is, you have to. Certainly, episode three in this, the end of episode three is a sort of black title card that says in loving memory of Liam Payne, who is, of course, in your band, One Direction.

And during that episode, when the news of his death breaks and it becomes part of that episode, you obviously realize that you have to involve the parents of these, in some case still children who are potential members of the band and you get them all together. I'm mentioning your son, Eric, who's 11, because you put him in the documentary and you know, you talk about him as a sort of motivating factor for kind of embarking on this quest at all.

But one of the children's mothers says, if your son, you know, what would you say to Eric if you wanted to be in a band like this? And I guess I would just perhaps firm that up slightly and say, if Eric was 15 and came and said, someone else, not you, wants to put me in a band like this, would you and Lauren let him? If I thought he was talented enough, number one. Do you think that people of that age can consent meaningfully to the risks and the rewards of that lifestyle?

Yeah, I do. I think, you know, if you, I mean, I know how many songs, roughly are uploaded a day now it's hundreds of thousands there are hundreds of thousands of people right now wanting to get a break in the music business and right now weirdly it's the hardest time to get a label to back you in some ways you don't need a label well I personally think you do I think you do because yeah you hear stories about people doing it themselves I I suppose I could have been the label but I don't have a record label anymore.

So I... You have a publishing deal with Universal, that's right, isn't it? Yes, but we... Which is where the deal with the band has ended up. But we, but the record deal had to be with a major company. Yes. Because I knew, I know how much you have to invest, what it takes, logistically. It's like you've got to put together a little army to, particularly a band.

If you're going to put them in a house, just the costs in. evolved are ginormous. And you think, though, in four years, your son would be able to consent to that. I mean, I have an 11-year-old among my children, and I have a 15-year-old among my children. And while something's changed in that time, I think it's amazing how, like, unformed and vulnerable they still are at 15. Yeah. Well, look, there's two.

I completely hear what you're saying. On the other side, it's sometimes at that age, there is a window, which is you've got which is take the opportunity. And these boys, they were young, most of them. And it was like, if they don't get this chance now, what are the chances for them outside of this? Has that always been your view of the music industry, that it's one of the great ways of lifting young and talented people

out of a life of sometimes of terrible disadvantage? And some have very sad endings within those stories, but others don't. And these are, that showbiz. The music business I've always found very elite. So when I was running a label, I would be on the receiving end of what people thought of the records I was putting out. And I was embarrassed, humiliated. I mean, everything.

It was just. I remember you once giving a quote in an interview saying everything that is shit in this company, Simon Cowell does. This is when you were working with many puppets, the Power Rangers. Really supportive, yeah. But you know what? It wasn't great that whole time, but you've got to lift yourself up and go, I don't really care what you think.

This is what I believe is going to sell. It's the music business. So my job is to make money for you and me. And that was the deal. And if I saw an opportunity like Robson and Jerome, you jump on it. And other people were laughing at me. And I mean, I was, God,

So many, because we outsold OASIS that year. And I remember the press was just saying the most vile things about me and Robson and Jerome because we dared beat OASIS to number one. I want to say I think it was the biggest selling single of that decade. It was certainly for two years, they were the biggest selling artists in the UK. There's a lovely question from Brian Atkinson, which we've already answered. But he said, does it give you a sense of quiet satisfaction? Actually, it was a good way of putting it.

Does it give you a sense of quite satisfaction that when people talk about Brit Pop and the Battle of Brit Pop. They conveniently forget that Robson and Jerome actually had the biggest selling single of 1995. I think it's funny. I mean, you can't take it seriously. I mean, you know, I saw an opportunity. It took me a few months to persuade them,

but eventually I did persuade them to get into a studio because I thought if I could get them into a studio, they're going to hear it back and they're going to hopefully like it. I offer them 100 grand, actually. And I said, look, it's yours. You can keep it, but you've got to go into the studio for one day. and they did

and once I got them in they called me and I won't use the words they said you bleep bleep you did this on purpose I said well of course I did on purpose because I wanted you to believe

that you could do this what is it in that's in your brain and not in other people's brains that were able to see two guys from soldier soldier and you immediately saw pound signs where other people didn't see them well I had a really good friend

who was in the tele sales department because that's when we were manufacturing records. So the record shops would phone all the tele sales teams at all the major labels if there was a demand for something. So this lady called Denise said, do you know Robinson and Jerome? And I said, nope. Well, everyone's trying to buy their version of Unchained Melody.

And I went, okay, leave it with me. And so I tracked them down and took me a few. months. But to your point, I'm not a snob. And a lot of the people I work with were, I think, snobs. And I just don't understand that mentality. If certain people like something and other people don't, does it matter? I don't think it mattered. I mean, if people buy zigg and zag and enjoy all the power rangers, I mean, who cares? It didn't bother me. Apart from the fact, yeah, There were some uncomfortable meetings. You know, I had to, you know, when I had to sit there, okay, what's new?

And I would go, okay, here we go. I've signed the Power Rangers. And there's like deathly silence around the room and people sniggering. And if we go back in a time machine to that point and talk to some of the colleagues on the other side of that table, how would they describe you? Do you think at that point in your career? Oh, we weren't friends. We weren't close. So, I mean, some were.

I got to a point where I actually went to the boss of the whole company and said, it's so bad this environment. If I've got to work with another label, I just can't work here anymore. And if you don't, I'm actually going to walk. I will break the contract and walk. I can't bear this any longer. It was so, so bad. Unfortunately, he switched me from one label to another label.

And they were really, like, up for it. They were like, we don't care, just sell as many records as you can. I'm like, brilliant. And how much is the world of idle and X Factor a sort of reaction to that time in your career where you are able to say, I want a vehicle where I can prove that I was right, that actually there is something to be said for popular music, for music that doesn't come out of, you know, some basement, something that isn't cool, but just a vindication for the way you'd always wanted to do business. Well, you're right to say popular because, you know, pop music is popular. I mean, that's it. So I thought, again, statistically, if we could get, say, 10,000 people to apply, there has to be a really good chance if we filter this properly that we're going to find one or two good people per year. I just thought the fact that we were being paid to make a show was brilliant. I was just genuinely gobsman.

I'm like, this is fantastic. Was it more about television than music? No, it's the opposite. I'm like, no, we're going to try and find artists and sell loads of records and this is the vehicle. Quite a few of them would end up getting dropped relatively soon afterwards. Well, yeah, but I mean, you never sign someone in the hope they're going to fail. I mean, that would be, I mean, literally insane. There would be times where you would go, for what,

whatever reason, I can't connect with this artist or they can't connect, you know, with the audience for whatever reason. I always used to say, look, I don't have a magic wand. I can try, but I can't guarantee anything. And actually, a lot of it has to come from you. So, you know, when people say, oh yeah, you know, I wasn't backing them, I did back them. I did everything I possibly could, but not everything worked out the way we wanted to. But a lot did, fortunately. What's your feeling about the ones who are sort of almost unionising, I think Katie Waisal ended up training as a lawyer and she's got some sort of, she's trying to bring some action against you for exploitation or whatever it is. What's your feeling about that?

Well, look, I don't want to go too far down that route other than everyone's entitled to their opinion, any artist is. The vast majority of people who came on the show, they made a lot money and got what they wanted, which was fame. Did it go exactly the way they wanted? Possibly not. So certain people, yeah, they've just got it in for me. And there's nothing I can do about that. I mean, every time we got, we put someone on the show, they, they signed up to what they knew the show was about. And most people want. I suppose it's about not quite understanding what you're consenting to, to some degree, certainly back in those days. If I can ask a question, from Alan McIntyre, which I think is asking something slightly different, but I think it's

instructive. Given your very career, it's fairly easy to point to success. But what has been your biggest miss and what did you learn from it? And I think the spirit of that question would be clearly, you've been in the music business long enough to know that there are sharks around and also your eyes are fairly wide open to what happens in the business. So you do know that you're sending people out into a slightly rocky field sometimes. Do you ever, do you ever, ever think 20 years ago, I wish I'd known that, and I would have done things slightly differently. What are the regrets when you think about those things? God, you know what? I do believe in destiny. I always use Eric as an example, which is there were certain things in my

life, which were bad. However, that's your destiny. And Eric was conceived on a certain day at a certain time and if things have gone differently then i don't believe he would be here so that therefore you can't really complain too much about you know your your regrets you just can't um however still you know i i've had experiences now where people who you trusted just completely let you down and and you're just like what would be an example of that i am i can't go into it, but I'll tell you, I'll tell you when all this is off. But no, genuinely, I mean, I can be quite naive where I really, really, really put my trust in people and boy, do they let you down. And so, you know, to, you know, your earlier point about me giving advice, it's like

I wish actually someone had given me advice about certain things and said, Simon, you know, open up here because you know for whatever it all sounds a bit cryptic let's just say um i've experienced you know certain things myself which yeah i regret but can you do anything about it now i suppose you can't in terms of your career or in terms of just where i'm in my life you know because you know my family is everything to me genuinely and having or being a dad It was, I mean, when I first found out, I'm like, oh my God, I wasn't expecting that. And then from the minute I saw his scan, I just fell in love. I mean, it was like a game changer.

Everything in my life changed. So I relived my childhood with Eric. And, you know, the first Christmas they get, the first Halloween they get, whatever, Easter, everything, birthdays. everything becomes different. Things that you were trying to put right about your own childhood or... Well, I had a pretty good childhood. I wasn't great at school.

I just wasn't. You were in Austria, weren't you, peeping over the fence to some exciting parties? Yeah, I was, yeah, when I was a kid, yeah. Tell the story of when you... Yeah, my dad, you know, he didn't actually make, in the end, money, to be honest with you. He didn't. I wasn't left anything. However, there was a time in his career where he was doing well. And our next door neighbors, they ran MGM Studios. So they used to have this big, big party, like once a year, I think it was. And we would literally

peek over the fence and see people like Elizabeth Taylor, Richard Burton. And I was mesmerized by it. But the funny thing was, is that I didn't want to be the actor or the actress. I wanted to be the person who had the party. And his name was Jerry Platner. And he was a really cool guy and he had a really fun wife who I remember her really well. Her name was Pam. And I think that was the trigger point possibly in my life thinking, God, that would be cool, you know, to be in that sort of world. To be the impresario. Yeah. To be. Yeah, yeah, probably, yeah. It just looked great. It was like a really glamorous old school party. You know, I can remember it vividly. And it must have been really young. This episode is brought to you by Channel 4. Now, Richard, settling down on a winter's evening, turn the TV on, what sort of thing are you searching for?

Well, when you think about Channel 4, you think about quirky, you think about slightly off the, wall. I, my absolute go-toes, well, three things my absolute go-toes. Grand Designs, because Kevin McLeod is a greatest television presenter in the history of factual entertainment, 24 hours in police custody, again, because it changed the way those things were done. You know, it changed, we'd seen all sorts of police investigation things, but 24 hours in police custody absolutely had a new, unusual, refreshing way of covering those cases, and every single time there is a new one. They have to release them, they can't sort of release them week by week because they're literally waiting for court cases to come through.

Some of them are waiting for years. For years and years and years and years. But any time a new one pops up on the streaming service, I'm like, here we go. And I also love the dog house, which is just about rescue dogs and people who want dogs. And it's almost like a sort of slightly kind of matchmakery type show. Fantastic. I endorse those messages, and you can stream them all now on Channel 4. If we go back, sorry, just when you're talking about Eric and how it's changed your

attitudes, which I think it does for most people, if you look back to the times where you very, very, very first started with One Direction, and you look at the time now when you're just starting with December 10, who are the new band, you must look at, because some of them are 16, 17, you must have a very different. attitude to those boys than you did to One Direction and how does that, is that interesting for you? There's a similarity in

so much as it wasn't, I don't think in their plans to be in a band the people in one direction and the people in this new band. It was because obviously with One Direction we just made that decision it would be best for them in the moment. I could just

do it. See what happens. With this I did this because I'm a great believer I always say this to people in their teens if you want to start your career in music I would really recommend you start in a band

Always team up You team up Yeah and you've got friends around you And it's more fun And you learn who you are Doing it on your own Is really If you don't write your own material

It's almost impossible right now I would say To get a label to back you Or to do it yourself I mean it's like a lottery out there But when you're looking at John or Nicholas, a bit of you is looking at Eric, right? Yeah. Which is, but that's a very different, that's a very different experience for you.

It is. And you're right to say that because Eric wasn't born when One Direction became a band. He was there during the auditions with me, Eric, and he just loved it. And he almost got a bit starstruck with the boys to the point where they're doing a showcase next week and he's going down with his mates to see them and he's just so excited about it and that feeling is i can't explain it it's just the best the fact that my son really is into something i've done um because when he first played me one a one direction record i was on holiday and he played me what makes you beautiful because he's always playing songs and he said do you like this

And I said, yeah, I know the band. No, you don't. I said, well, I do. I work with them. No, you didn't. I was laughing. And then it got to the point where I'm like, gosh, I love listening to their songs because they're brilliant.

But at the same time, I'm thinking, I really miss that buzz myself of working with a new band. Because it's not totally clear from the documentary, but I understand it to be the case that you're not just involved in the assembly. you're involved thereafter. That's right. You're not just, you know, you haven't just put them together

and gifted them to the world. Of course you've got a piece of it. Simon Cow. Yeah. I mean, you always, you know, if you can,

you want to be and you stay involved. And how do Universal, for instance, feel about that? Because that's a, that can be a friction, can't it, between the label and the manager?

Are you officially their manager? Is that what they call you? No, no. What's your job title? I don't know, actually. Line manager.

Line manager. Well, I think they are my boss, and the bosses now. I mean, it's kind of like role reversal, you know. Right, okay. It is a bit like that because it's like, you know, you're talking to X amount of boys

and they're now bonded and they're just and they take it a piss out of me and they're pranking me and everything else. But I kind of love that. You know, I like that relationship. Yeah, but you are still the most powerful person in that process. You're more powerful than universal

in that process. You're certainly more powerful than the boys. You're Simon Cowell and I know it's hard for you to come to terms with because you wake up as you every morning. But in terms of that process, in terms of that whole documentary, you are the big dog. Well, yes, to a point. I think what, I mean, my job really is, well, first of all, you could try and find them a manager who you trust, but they had to make the decision themselves. We let them meet a number of people.

They chose someone, and I think they made a really good choice. We like that you think their name is a good choice. We find it very funny because it's got the feel. We're allowed to say what it is now because by the time it says December 10, it sounds like a sort of South American kind of Marxist terrorist organization. I know the Black September was taken. The Black September was taken. How do you think that?

It sounds like the glorious events of December 10. I don't know how. It does. It does. I think it's going to do that again. It was reminding you of what? No, like a good anniversary when the show launches. Sure, sure. But it sounds like a Colombian terrorist group. Well, now you mention it. No, I get it. I wish you hadn't put that thought in my head. It's a good name now.

It's too late now. I thought it was very sweet of them and very respectful to Netflix that they did that, you know, because it's like, yeah. Respectful to Netflix. Well, it was. That's the key in this business. No, it was because. That's showbiz. No, it shows that they acknowledge that the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the,

platform has given them... A debt to the streamer. An opportunity. How was your relationship with Netflix and how was their relationship with you just out of interest? I've really, really liked them. I've got a lot of friends there who work there and everyone who works there, I mean, they're happy. I think the bosses are amazing. I think they're incredibly smart.

I mean, you think about where they started and where they've got to. I mean, it's an unbelievable, seriously, an unbelievable story. And I wanted to do something on Netflix. You know, I really did. So I was, you know, really praying that they were going to say, yeah. I've really got to delete what you just said. December 10. It's true, though.

God. All those, all those organizations are cool. It's funny. I mean, honestly, though. Until, you know, they activate. Until the cell activates. You could, you could, you could, you could, you could, see it right there's seven of them yeah no no um full forward two years

Alex Beagle says did you see the boy's own documentary yes very good what did you make of that how do you think Louis came across in that just that's my just just as Louis I mean Louis is so unfiltered um I mean genuinely um and the fact genuinely yeah I mean the not like you he's unfiltered but in a stage in a different way yeah I mean I just don't think I would of quite he put a lot out there he put everything out there i thought i mean i thought it was interesting yeah sad uh at the same time um i remember that that time where we were on the smash hits road show you know we all wanted to get on that to break our our artists if you can get on that show and on the tv show then you had a really good shot and he did that with boy zone yeah

And that, and look, the fact that he put, however many there were on a TV show and just said dance, and they hadn't prepared for it. I mean, only Louis could do that. I mean, that is classic. That's an anxiety. Are you guys still in contact you and Louis? I hear from him, yeah. I mean, I saw him actually. I'm just joking.

No, I'm joking. With Lurie, everything he says, like I said, I mean, we said this earlier on. friendship is you can say things and then laugh about it afterwards. So when he goes on certain shows and mouths off about me, I'm like, Louis, why did you do that? Well, they pay me a lot of money. I said, I know, but you didn't have to say that. And I just burst out laughing. Can I ask you a little bit?

One of the things you say at one point is, oh, I keep waking up in the night. I read and then I maybe do or don't go back to sleep. Can I ask you about your cultural life? What do you read? Oh, mainly I actually like your books Oh, that's well, he's good, isn't he? He's thinking, this is a trap

No, how do I get out of this? No, respect, you must have made a fortune. Thank you, sir. No, genuinely, you must have done that or you are making a fortune. By the way, I know from you that is the greatest respect. No, well, you've done really well. When did you come up with the idea?

That's very kind. Then I'll answer the question. I think it was December 10 No we are not Don't say it You could activate them I love John Grisham I think out of every author

He's my favourite I go around in circles I'll actually read a book I love four or five times What about TV What about things you like on TV Well

Do you know what You know when people Work in a fish and chip shop And they go I just can't eat fish and chips I'm sometimes a bit like that with TV which is I watch so much of what I make because I have to

you have to watch the shows before they go out as a producer and it can become I mean it takes hours and hours and hours and hours so sometimes when people say do you want to watch a TV show I'm like God no I think I'm more into films

do you go to the cinema still yeah I do I saw Paddington you know the one in Peru Yes. Big mistake, by the way. Yeah. Because Paddington needs to stay in London. I would love the idea of you coming out and talking to Eric about where exactly they went wrong.

No, I know what you mean? He does. We don't mind about the origin story. It didn't work. You know, Paddington in London is magic. Him in Peru didn't work. Simon Cowell, the next act, brilliant name for a documentary. It's out right now.

I think it's a genuinely interesting watch. I think it's less authentic than I was hoping. it was going to be because I'm genuinely interested in your process and the way your mind works and how you put a band together and I felt I was watching a little bit of your mind putting a television show together more than I was watching your mind putting a band together I still enjoyed it I promise you I told you pinky thumby and I never break that I'm just I'm just saying actually maybe I'm a bit boring no Simon no I just think I think there were there were moments where what do you think we didn't show out of interest what do I think gosh that's a

really, really good question. I think that the process is slightly different. I think, for example, this is a really, really small example. I think you had a good idea you wanted seven boys in that band earlier than you showed on the camera. Okay, well, then absolutely not. I'm not buying that, because you're all talking about K-pop all the three, and K-Pop seven is a small number. Yeah, they got a cost a thousand. The night before, I had three, and then I was going to form five and then I was thinking to myself, who do I drop? Because I've got to seven and I genuinely like all of these boys. So the night before I couldn't sleep. So I was thinking about some of these K-pop bands and it was like, they've done so well. And I think people like big groups now. So why

am I dropping people for the sake of it? See, as a viewer, I'm thinking you thought that a long time before because and if you didn't then I then I'd be surprised because you're right right I promise you I give you my word I made the decision on the day I did it and I told Lauren about 30 seconds I said right this is what I'm doing she said you've lost your mind I said okay who would you drop and she went yeah you got a point and I didn't tell anyone around me didn't tell the producers didn't tell my team they didn't tell anyone I promise you it was like in the moment moment, a bit like, I think, in a good way, a light bulb moment.

But as a viewer, genuinely, I'm spending 15 minutes going, I know it's going to be all seven. I've really got to see you looking at all of these pictures again and again again. Sorry, to disappoint you. I don't know who to drop. I mean, is it him? I mean, if you look at this picture, this is... But that's good, though, isn't it? Well, no, because I knew that you were going to have seven people.

Well, okay, well, then you should do I do. Because we got to a point where I really... start to like these boys and I could see them bonding and I just couldn't lose one or two of the boys and then when I saw all seven of them I went actually they look amazing so when they have that first meeting and they weren't allowed to be any cameras in that meeting that we were told had gone really wrong but luckily when you have the meeting at universal all the cameras are in no room I'm so pleased where you have a publishing deal okay look that A publishing deal, by the way, is completely separate from the record deal.

But the cameras were not separate from that meeting, which I was thrilled about because we've amazingly got to see the moment they got the record deal. I'll tell you off camera what happened. Other than... There we go. It's totally authentic. It'll tell us off when it happened. It is, I have to say, it's very watchable.

I think that they're going to do incredibly well. I'm not an expert, but I do know a good song. So when I heard, you know, the soundtrack of the Demon Hunters. When I heard those songs, my God, these songs are amazing, golden. I mean, it's one of the best pop songs I've heard in years. So, you know, credit to them. You did a brilliant job. Anyway, cut to our band.

When I heard their first song, I just personally, like Bleeding Love, love it. And I hope other people like it. And I hope other people like the band because they're not, they're just regular kids, you know. They're really nice people and I really want things to go well for them. Will they continue to exist or will they now exist just as a band or will there be more sort of shoulder content? Will there be other breakout series about their backstage life? I hope if it's successful that we could do that. I mean, I'm still got cameras, you know, with them now.

Of course. I went down to see them the other day and they did prank me actually twice. And then I prank them back because they told me. in a meeting that all of them is going on Love Island what? That's a good prank to be fair anyway so then I pretended to phone his girlfriend

and tell her and so he went like Oh you can use a phone because in the documentary there's a funny scene where you can't you can't use a phone I literally held the phone up like that and just was talking to myself

pretending I was talking We've been so mean to you You're being really mean It's all good humor. It's all good humor. My favorite bit in the whole thing is when you tell them to do bye-bye-bye-bye just to get a dig-in at 5 for turning that song down. That's such a good...

And I do a beautiful version of it. Do you like it? Yeah. Oh my God. That's what we were hoping that was going to be the first single. Well, you know, it's available. Siren, thank you so much for doing. You two are really funny, by the way.

No. I mean, seriously. Well, listen. We are very grateful to you coming in and answering all of those questions. We didn't even talk about Britain's. Got Talent, one of the, probably the biggest show in the whole world. Yeah, that's, that's how much Simon has done. We talked about America's Got Talent, so we have to regard that base as tick for this moment.

That is covered, but yeah, thank you so much for coming in. So, Simon Cowell, the next act, it's on Netflix right now. On December 10, which is. Don't say it three times in the bathroom mirror. Hostage video. But it is, and again, people, if you do watch it, we'd love to take. get your take about the authenticity question. Actually, you know what?

I promise you, I will come back on if you'll have me and then we'll see if it's worked and whether people believe me or you. Yes, we'll find out. It really was authentic. Actually, to the point, you know when we have Magic Axe on BGT? Yeah. So we genuinely don't know what they're going to do

and what's going to happen. and then it goes out and apparently people go oh it was rigged the judge is new blah blah blah we don't I kind of believe in magic because I have to

so this is a little bit the same it's kind of annoying that you think that I'd plan this all along and I didn't however the positive means actually what is the positive

I don't even know what it is I think that's It's a bit annoying. More TBC. I simply say to the people who watch, I think they're inauthentic production choices. That's what I say. Well, I will say, as the producer, it isn't.

And on that bombshell. The executive producer of a documentary about himself, pipe down, Richard. All right, all right. Simon, thanks so much for coming in. Oh, my gosh. Thank you. Thank you so much, Simon.

Thank you so much, listeners. We will see you all next Tuesday. Thank you, everyone.