The Rest Is Entertainment - The Comedians Crazy For Saudi Cash

Episode Date: September 1, 2025

The Riyadh Comedy Festival - Why are comedians heading to a country where free speech laws are so strict? Who is Travis Kelce aka Mr Taylor Swift? Is he just her plus one? How has Michael Jackson’s estate gone from hundreds of millions of pounds in debt upon his death to now being worth billions? Why are some of the world’s biggest comedians including Dave Chappelle, Whitney Cummings and Jimmy Carr, heading to Saudi Arabia, a country with some of the strictest free speech laws on the planet? Is comedy really universal, or is this just laughing all the way to the bank? Taylor Swift’s fiancé is also a three-time Super Bowl champ. But is Travis Kelce just Mr Taylor Swift, or was he always destined to be a star off the field? Michael Jackson’s estate was drowning in debt when he died in 2009. Fast forward to today and it’s worth billions. So what happened? From lawsuits to musicals to a long-delayed biopic, the King of Pop’s legacy is proving to be very, very lucrative. But who’s really cashing in? Join The Rest Is Entertainment Club: Unlock the full experience of the show – with exclusive bonus content, ad-free listening, early access to Q&A episodes, access to our newsletter archive, discounted book prices with our partners at Coles Books, early ticket access to live events, and access to our chat community. Sign up directly at therestisentertainment.com The Rest Is Entertainment is proudly presented by Sky. Sky is home to award-winning shows such as The White Lotus, Gangs of London and The Last of Us. Requires relevant Sky TV and third party subscription(s). Broadband recommended min speed: 30 mbps. 18+. UK, CI, IoM only. To find out more and for full terms and conditions please visit Sky.com For more Goalhanger Podcasts, head to www.goalhanger.com Assistant Producer: Aaliyah AkudeVideo Editor: Kieron Leslie, Charlie Rodwell, Adam Thornton, Harry SwanProducer: Joey McCarthySenior Producer: Neil FearnHead of Content: Tom WhiterExec Producers: Tony Pastor + Jack Davenport Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

This episode is brought to you by our good friends at Sky. Some things were just made to be together. Salt of Vinegar, Holmes and Watson, Tommy Shelby and a Taylor who asked no questions, preferably while pouring the whiskey. Oh, salt and vinegar, definitely. Now, you can add to the list of those dynamic duos, Sky and Netflix.

Now together on the Sky Essential TV package for just £15 a month. One place, one bill, one less thing to think about. Two entertainment heavyweights under one roof with shows like The Last of Us, gangs of London and Squid Game, plus Sky Atlantic, Discovery Plus and over 90 other channels.

It's your evening neatly stacked by someone with impeccable taste. You. Serious value for a front row pass to the shows everyone's talking about, lined up, turning your sofa into the hottest ticket in town, minus the dress code. Get Sky TV and Netflix for £15 a month, the best entertainment in one place, ready whenever you are. Visit sky.com to start.

Requires relevant SkyTV and third-party subscriptions, Central TV includes a selection of Sky channels, 18 Plus, UK, Channel Islands, and I Love Man only. TD Bank knows that running a small business is a journey, from startup to growing and managing your business. That's why they have a dedicated small business advice hub on their website to provide tips and insights on business banking to entrepreneurs. No matter the stage of business you're in, visit TD.com slash small business advice to find out more or to match with a TD Small Business Banking Account Manager. Hello and welcome to The Rest is Entertainment with me, Marina, hi. And me, Richard Osman. Hello, Marina.

Hello, Richard. How are you? Yeah, and I'm very well. Have you had a nice week? I have had a nice week. I had a very busy week. But I have actually noticed, Richard, that despite that busyness, the Thursday Murder Club movie is number one in the whole world. Listen, let's not Let's not go into that Can you talk a little bit about it later

teeny bit, teeny bit? Yeah, I can talk about how the numbers work And what you need Your happy space. Yes, yeah, exactly Well, don't you do a happy place Is that later? No, but it's lovely

But yeah, we can talk about that at the end maybe Because we've got more interesting things to talk about I think starting with something I think is very interesting which I'm not sure that many people know about And I think that the people involved They would love to keep it that way We're talking about the Riyadh Comedy Festival, which is a comedy festival in Saudi Arabia, where I have to say I have never seen a line-up of comedians like this. It's an unbelievable bill. So let's talk about that.

We're going to talk about Travis Kelsey. Who is he? Where did he come from? Who are the greatest power couple in the history of entertainment? And are Taylor and Travis about to take that throne? And we're also going to talk about the incredible financial afterlife of Michael Jackson. You know there's a musical that's playing very well and there's also a movie coming which has been marred in particular difficulties but we can talk about all of that

because that one's an interesting one. Yeah, now talking about people making money that perhaps they shouldn't be, the Rear Comedy Festival. The Rear Comedy Festival runs from the 26th of September to October the night. Tickets still available? Tickets still available.

I assume. Tickets still available. Now the lineup, as I say, is pretty unbelievable. there are more than 50 top comedians. It has billed itself as the world's biggest comedy festival, whatever biggest means as a metric, but it may be on the late later. I certainly think it's the world's most lucrative comedy festival.

Oh, yeah. I think Edinburgh or Montere might both go. I think maybe we have more comics. Yeah, it's definitely the most lucrative. Okay. The bill includes, but is not limited to. Dave Chappelle, Kevin Hart, Jimmy Carr, Pete Davidson, Chris Tucker, Russell Peters, Trevor Noah,

Hannibal Burress, Bill Burr, Namesh Patel, Omidjolili, Tom Segura, Aziz Ansari, Louis C.K., Andrew Shultz. There are a couple of chicks who've made it out there. Whitney Cummings. Well, they haven't made it out. Yeah, Jessica Kerson, there's a couple. You'll laugh your head off, won't you, Richard? You will laugh your head off. I think there's a little bit of background we should say that we talked a lot about Saudi investment in things.

This is part of the Saudi push for sort of cultural expansion. Yeah. So we've had sports watching. They've got a Vision 2030 strategy, it's called. We talked about the Red Sea Film Festival, which is now in its something year and is attracting bigger and bigger people every year. Reportedly, Bob Iger turned down Saudi as the location for the next Disney Park, which is now going to be in Abu Dhabi, but they were obviously in that mix.

And the Read Season Festival, it's got comedy, sport, culture, hospitality, all of this things. Anyway, all of this stuff takes place in a place called, and the Comedy Festival is going to take place in a place in Riyadh called Boulevard City. Insert generic name. Oh, no, they have. It seems like a sort of big entertainment district and it's got multiple theatre stages like outside of auditoriums and a central thing called Square, which is inspired by Times Square.

I mean, insert a more generic name. What do we think about people taking that Saudi money? It's not completely cut and dried. It's funny, isn't it, Richard? I don't think it is. I am not, I think, actually, just broadening it out from that very, very specific geographical region. I'm not a huge fan of comedians taking paid for gigs by from governments, even autocracies,

you know, even autocracies. Here's my absolute starting point with this. If you go over to Saudi Arabia, if people do corporates, all sorts of things all the time, the money's right and you're comfortable with who that corporate is, go and do it. And an awful lot of people on this list are not hand ringy. They're not the sort of people who said, oh, I won't do this, I won't do that. they are people who have always sort of done anything for the highest price, okay? Which, you know, if that's who you are, that's who you are.

I think that the money that's being paid for it and the potential audience size there is over there, you have to accept that you are not being paid for punters coming through the door. You're not being paid for a promoter to make money. So you are being paid by the Saudi government. Yes. I think you have to, there's no, again, no judgment. but if you're going over there, the reason you're being paid that much money is to promote Saudi Arabia. You're worth it, not because you're going to bring in the ticket sales, you're worth it for something else.

Exactly. So you're there to do PR for the Saudi government. We can argue about whether that's a good thing to be taking money for or not. But I think that has to be the starting point. And a lot of the comedians have come out and spoken about why they're doing it. Yeah, because they all have, they all either have podcasts or go on podcasts the whole time. To talk about it. Yeah. But it hasn't bubbled through.

I don't think to the mainstream at all. And I don't think people really know this is particularly happening. But if you, you know, listen to lots of these kind of humor podcasts or you listen, some of them have talked about them on really big podcasts. Yeah. But they're keeping it relatively quiet. I think it's fair to say for various reasons. If I can talk about the general thinking of the comedians who are doing it, Jim Jeffries,

who's huge in the States, he has said because, of course, the murder of Jamal Khashoggi is the real sort of lightning rod for Saudi human rights abuses. This is the journalist who was murdered in 2018. dismembered in the Saudi consulate in Istanbul. Jim Jeffrey says, people have been going, oh, how dare you go over there after, oh, they killed a reporter. That was the big one. There's been a reporter who they killed. You don't think our government kills people? Oh, I think Jeffrey Epstein was bumped off. You know what I mean? He said, you know, you can be angry about how they treat their people, how they treat that

reporter. You can be angry at golfers, the Lyft Golf. But we are basically freedom of speech machines being sent over there. They have not at one stage asked to see our material. Bracket citation needed. They haven't asked. So he is a freedom of speech machine. He talks so much about they've got all these edgy people, isn't it? Chris Di Stefano, who is playing, he justified it as well. He's talking to another comic who said he wasn't going to do it. And Di Stefano says, well, I didn't want to do it either. I was contemplating. I was like, maybe not. And then Jasmine, his wife was like, well, we're getting married. We've got the house. Who knows? We'll probably said it again. I was like, I can't do it. And then she was like, you're going to take the

fucking money. No mention of Jamakashoggi at any point in that conversation. Well, Bill Burr has done a lot of routines about people working, ordinary normal people working for crappy corporations and saying you don't have to, you don't have to do this. I mean, this seems very much you don't have to for Bill Burr as well. To engage with the first point. Yes. Last year, I ended up having dinner in one of New York's sort of most exclusive gentlemen's clubs with a very very very, very You live a life. Yeah. With a much older.

With a much older. Long story short, we are now married. With a much older. Is this Prince Andrew? No, it's not. It's a much older American guy, very eminent. And it was really interesting being in this club in the first place because he was saying to me, David Cameron was still just at that moment, foreign secretary.

And he was saying, oh, last week, you know, your foreign secretary, he was in here with these people of the Chinese government in this tiny little room. And I was like, I see. I say it's interesting all the things that go on in gentlemen's clubs, isn't it? Anyway, and we ended up talking about Saudi Arabia, and he said at a certain point, oh, you know, it's such a shame, really, what's happened. And I said, oh, my God, I know you chop up one journalist. And then he just looked at me and he raised his eyebrow and I said,

oh, I see, you're saying, we do things like that. Or we just don't, but we just don't get, we just don't get caught. Or we're less amateur or whatever. And then he just raised the eyebrow again. And I thought, well, given who you are, you would most certainly know about this. But that is the Jim Jeffrey's point, and it's the point of lots of these people, which is, if you live in any sort of commercial world, then you are doing a deal with the devil almost all the time. And just because people are jumping on one particular issue doesn't mean that they're not being hypocrites in other ways. If you want to read all of these, by the way, there's a really good newsletter called Humorism that is run by a guy called Seth Simons.

and it's sort of about the, I don't know what I'll say it's the dark side of the comedy business, but it is. And he's collated all of what people have been saying about the Riyadh Comedy Festival. And then Tim Dillon was talking, saying, this is a good one. He said, oh, my agent calls me, says, I don't know if we should do this because this is an endorsement of Saudi Arabia. And I said, well, okay, but let's be frank, I'm living in a country right now that is endorsing another country's behavior that I don't agree with. I mean, all entertainment money is effing blood money one way or another. discuss. I mean, obviously not all entertainment. Money is blood money. It's not all blood money.

A lot of it is. Oh yeah. I mean, I've heard what they say about hazard games, but we can't do it today. I don't know how they're funding the new Balimori, but certainly they're being opaque about it. Yeah. There's a lot of countercultural comedians who I think have been, especially in America, who've been told for the last five, ten years, you can't do this, you can't say this, all the stuff, all the cliché stuff if you can't say anything in comedy anymore. And they have absolutely quite rightly. said, you can say whatever you like in comedy. And I do. You know, you choose your moments. You judge your audience. So I say whatever I like. But having been lectured to for such a long

time and having been on the right side of some of those arguments and the wrong side of some of those arguments, actually, if you are presented with a thing like this, you do kind of go, but you know, I always do. I always do the thing that's not expected of me. I always do. I always do the counterintuitive thing. You know, because I believe in free speech, we should be allowed to do what we want. You can't put me in a box. I just climb out of that box. You can't, you can't put me in a box. And some of those comedians will definitely believe that for sure. For some of them, it's quite convenient. I mean, listen, they've got a call. They're going to go somewhere for 48 hours and pay paid an awful lot of money. I mean, an awful lot of money. And so if you

can find even the slightest justification as to why that might be okay, which is human rights are abused everywhere, I think it's important that I spread freedom of speech to a new group of people. Then you do. Then that's what you do. But they are keeping in quiet. Can we have a slight. A sidebar on this, the idea of cultural boycotts, because a lot of people say I don't agree with cultural boycotts. I mean, I always find the person who's saying I don't agree with cultural boycotts is someone like Sting who's just been paid like a million dollars to appear for some. I remember he did one like Sting for the former Uzbek dictator's daughter. That sounds like a Gilbert and Sullivan song, the former Uzbek dictator's daughter. Yeah, if you could fit in funny rhymes for boiling your enemies, child slave armies, killing your own people if they protest, then 100,

It's a Gilbert and Sartland. Hold on a second. What was the second one? But Sting, I remember saying when people found out that he'd done it, he said, oh, you know, I don't believe in cultural boycotts. It's like, okay. But I want to spread my artistic ideas. It's like, yes, but I don't think within the palace, you are spreading your artistic ideas. And they had one sort of publicly open concert. And I think that the ticket price was something like 45 times the average was about monthly salary. So you are still involved in a cultural boycott. And there will be a lot of these comedians. who say, oh, but I'm bringing my ideas to, can I just say it again, the boulevard. Yes. Maybe doing a gig in Square. Wow, you're playing Square? You're playing square? Oh, my God.

You're heard of the sphere, but this sounds so much better. You sold that place out? Oh, you haven't sold it out. Oh, no one sold any of these out. Okay. Yeah. Louis C.K. and Jimmy Carr are doing a joint gig. That's interesting.

Yeah. It's a lot going on there. A lot going on there. So I suppose you're saying, is comedy the front line of the fight for liberty? Is it? By the way. Or is it full of my job? mercenaries, or is it somewhere? Do you know what? It's interestingly both those things.

Yeah. I think it's definitely full of mercenaries. Yeah. But of course it is, but there isn't a branch of show business that isn't. It's all blood money, which is all blood money. But it is full of people who are dancing on the tightrope of what you're allowed to say. You know, either you're charming and funny and you're saying something unusual or you are sort of trying to push an envelope. So it's understandable that culturally, this is a group of people who believe their opinions perhaps to have some impact and some importance. Well, they're not held back They are self-doubt, although they tell you they are all the time. I would say, to give an example, there was a really big Saudi, the biggest Saudi comic,

and there will be Saudi comics on this bill, by the way, but the biggest Saudi comic for a long time, and people used to call him the Jerry Seinfeld or Saudi Arabia or something, was called Fahad al-Bitari. He was filling stadiums. He was a groundbreaker. He went over to L.A. He did a bit of work. He moved to Dubai. But he was married to one of those women's rights activists who were arrested for driving.

And she managed to sort of get away. But then they were both grabbed, her in UAE, I think, and him in Jordan. And they were taken back to Saudi. She was in prison. She was tortured. She had electric shocks beating, waterboarding. And she's finally released in 2021. And she's still under a travel ban.

And two months ago in Saudi Arabia, they executed a journalist for a tweet. It was called Turkey Al Jasser. He had two social media accounts, one called Turkey Al Jasser, and another sort of anonymous one, which was apparently dangerously satirical. So to me, this is like a real tale of two cities. Like either you're in the Riyadh where you get grabbed and executed and tortured and all of those things. Oh, you're in the boulevard. This kind of outward facing, but let's not kid ourselves that you're doing it for anything.

I think they're all doing it for the money. I'd be really honest with you. I would love all of them, all of them, to say how much they're being paid. Because they, hey, listen, these guys are, what do they say, free speech machines? But also, if you're Jim Jeffries and you are a free speech machine, and genuinely, you know, I think he has an argument that says that. But if you are a free speech machine, here is the perfect forum, the perfect set, the perfect place, the perfect material. Take what Marina just said. Talk about that.

Talk about that not only on stage, but talk about that with your handlers. Let's talk about that with the people who are taking you to your car and then taking you to the prescribed bar. Just talk to them. If you are a free speech machine, you're a machine. You know no other way other than to promote free speech. That's the thing. You're a machine. You get turned on and that's what you do.

That's how you run. Well, this is the absolute perfect test of being a free speech machine. It's the perfect test for a lot of those comics of saying, you say that you say the unsayable, you say that you're trying to change people's minds and people's views. Here we go. I mean, if you are at the forefront of the culture wars, if you are at the forefront of where we're going next, here is the perfect opportunity to absolutely put a flag in, show your true color, show exactly who you are and what it is that you do. There has never been a better time or a better place to do it. They are not going to kill you. You could all do it. It could be like a bake-off of the best set on society of human rights abuses. You could all do it and make it funny, you know, because you're brilliant. You're the top, you're the very top of your game. And by the way, there are people on this bill who I think are doing it for the right reasons. So I disagree with you slightly.

They're all doing it for money, of course, they are. But there are people who genuinely believe that going to Saudi Arabia, that engaging in Saudi culture, this country is not going to become geopolitically any less important. Any time soon. So there are strong arguments. There will be people in NGOs, there will be people in government who say it is really good to go and engage with Saudi Arabia. It's a really important place to get. Yeah, unlike the guy I was talking to it. It's such a shame if you don't.

Yes. it's such a shame they had a snooker tournament there last year and there was nobody watching anything and that's the point where they play snook in China and it's absolutely rammed so if you are doing that

you do and I'll say this to the comics as well listen if it's absolutely full of just normal Saudis really laughing men and women are really mixed crowd and it may well be by the way come back and tell us if it is great you've done your job but also be aware that it has been partially staged for you

yeah but be aware if it's not the out you're hoping, be aware of who it is that you are working for, and just run that through the machine, I would say. Yeah, I think it's really, I think it's really interesting. And what I find most interesting is it has had so little coverage in anything that would sort of resemble mainstream publications. And I think that's because people are trying to keep it under the radar. I want every coffin spit from this thing, though. I would read a massive oral history about it 15 seconds after it's happened. So I hope everything is being documented and smuggled out one way or another yeah jimmy carra if you're listening please just write it all down now jimmy is

someone who thinks very deeply about things he will have a justification for why he's doing it but i would love to read just from the moment the plane touches down to the moment they leave with a suitcase full of cash i would like to read every single thing a very very long read every conversation that is had yeah and i want a full rundown of what the boulevard and square look like and i want to see um i want to see a full transcript of the acts just to see quite how freedom of speechy they are. And footage of the crowds, not Will Smith style, which has been making me laugh all week. Will Smith's AI concert fans. Oh my goodness. It's unbelievable. If you haven't seen it, you've got this. It was his, was it his Scarborough gig? Yeah, it doesn't necessarily have the

immediate vibes of Scarborough. But if you look at the footage, yeah, they've composited a lot of stuff to go. He is high-fiving an awful lot of seven and three-fingered people in that AI crowd, isn't he? It's amazing. I really want to know more about that as well. But anyway, that's a sidebar. Yeah, the Riyadh Comedy Festival I mean listen Edinburgh started small Yeah You know

Perhaps in 40 years time This will be the thing Everyone will go Oh my God The Riaad Comedy Festival It's got so expensive now Yeah You know

You won't be able to find accommodation Yeah I mean I used to be able to get Like a two bed flat On square For like you know 300 quid

For that like the whole run And now you're miles outside Boulevard Shall we Go for a break That was very bracing Let's do that Yeah

This episode is brought to you by Sky, home of Atomic, the new Sky original series. Max, a free-spirited drug smuggler, is forced into an unlikely partnership with JJ, an enigmatic fugitive, seemingly allergic to eye contact. They're involuntarily trafficking, life-threatening uranium. If it ends up in the wrong hands, the fallout will be nuclear. They're being tracked by covote operatives, led by Cassie, a highly skilled scientist, and undercover CIA officer who will do everything in her power, to stop a potential Armageddon, thanks Cassie.

Conspiracies, car chases and morally grey zones. Atomic stars Alf Yallin, Shazad Lateef and Samira Wiley. It's high stakes, offbeat and somehow still full of heart like Thelma and Louise, if they were carrying uranium and everyone has sand in the rise. Watch Atomic. Brand new episodes every Thursday on Sky. Requires Sky TV subscription. Wendy's most important deal of the day has a fresh lineup. Pick any two breakfast items for $4.00.

New four-piece French toast sticks, bacon or sausage wrap, biscuit or English muffin sandwiches, small hot coffee and more. Limited time only at participating Wendy's Taxes Extra. Welcome back, everybody. Now, on to more pleasant matters. Travis Kelsey and Taylor Swiftson. They're getting married. As she said, your gym teacher is marrying your English teacher.

But we know about Taylor Swift, but Travis Kelsey, who is a sports star essentially, but now is a huge entertainment titan as well. I think perhaps over here we know a little bit less about him. It's a genuinely fascinating story because he is an NFL player and he obviously has entertainment, comedy ambitions, not the first time. You know, obviously we have Terry Cruz. Obviously, if you thought the ground was salted after O.J. Simpson, not at all, not at all. but there is a better way in the form of Travis Kelsey he is extraordinarily diversified he's still playing

he retirement will come relatively soon pretty soon by the way and he's the real deal in terms of American football one of the Super Bowl three times he's a hall of famer it's just been an unbelievable run on all possible fronts it's sort of hilarious he's had a good decade yeah we should say that all this was happening all this diversification and becoming a sort of

you know, multimedia brand was happening well before he met Taylor Swift. There's a forgotten dating show called Catching Kelsey that happened on the E-Channel in 2016. He didn't find true love on that, thank goodness, saving himself for this cultural moment. He did a deal with Pfizer to promote COVID jabs

which got him a lot of backlash, but also a lot of people saw it. He co-owns a steakhouse with his chief's teammate, Patrick Mahomes. He's got a clothing line. He's got a nutrition brand. He is going to host Are You Smarter than a Celebrity on Prime, I think? He was in an episode of one of those Ryan Murphy horror sort of anthologies grotesquery. He hosted SNL, which was a big sort of extraordinary thing. He's invested in an indie movie, he's invested in some hot sauce, the brand I particularly

like. He has got a bit, yeah, Cholula. The classic, the Cholula, which has got the little round wooden head bottle, it's really nice. You know it. Oh, I know exactly what you're talking about. The classic Mexican restaurant one that's in all. of them. Chalula? He's invested in that. That's Travis Kelsey? Yeah.

Well, he's, not just him, but he did. There's other people. Yeah. Sounds like you're invested in that company. I'm invested as a consumer. I told you he did the Grower Garden collaboration. That is massive, though. All of those people seeing you and being interested in you.

So I suppose we have to say, who is his manager or his branding agency? Yeah, where's this come from? Listen, he's obviously got a kind of a spark in him that wants to be in the conversation and wants to do entertainment. Well, he's got it, which is helpful. But it's really interesting. They're these two brothers who are his business managers, and they're called Andre and Aaron Eanes. And Andre Eames was a childhood friend of Travis Kelsey's roommate

at the University of Cincinnati, where he obviously was a brilliant college football, etc. And he started a sort of events thing, even while he was at college. And Travis Kelsey was apparently the life and soul of all parties. Yeah, I bet. And wanted to get like, you know, backstop, you know, kind of free tickets or kind of VIP passes or whatever.

And meanwhile, his brother, Aaron, André Ian's brother, was studying sports management. And what he thought was, oh, I want to be a not a traditional type of sports agent. I want to be a bit more like someone who manages a musical artist and who, you know, where you're doing all these other things and you're thinking which other brands could we bring in. Something more like that. Anyway, and they were trying to pitch all this to, obviously, what they had access to was college footballers and trying to say, but all of them just want a football agent and they want to go big and that's what they want. So Travis Kelsey became their second class.

find. Yeah, it's cool, isn't it? Right? You know what? Whenever I hear a story like that, all I want to know is who's the first one. Yeah, I know. That's what I was, yeah, it's not clear. I did actually try and find that out, but I couldn't. So sorry for failing on that front. Now he's got sort of full football agencies with CIA. He's got publicists and creative strategists and all of this stuff. But they planned his sort of crossover from way before he met Taylor Swift. They wanted him to be like the Rock. Oh, that's good. Like the Rock, but for football. Yeah. Well, the Rock started. in college football, then he went to wrestling and then obviously, you know, now he's the rock.

Yeah. Remember, he got his name back. He no longer has to be Dwayne Johnson because he got the rock back. He was briefly called a hard place, wasn't he? Yeah. Yeah, and that was like Prince's face. Yeah. But as I say, he wanted it and he's got that ambition and just, he obviously has got that charm, which is very, very particular. Things like he really wanted, he's always wanted to do S&L and he said, I want to do S&L. So they managed to get to get to go to an afterpart. at one, you know, maybe when he was nearby or he was in New York or something. And he went, made a B-Line for Lorne Michaels, taught him. And then as soon as he went to the first Super Bowl, they were literally around the next morning and said, okay, fine. That's the thing sometimes when someone's assent looks absolutely effortless is because they are incredibly charismatic and good at what they do.

And so every time they send a letter or every time they have a meeting or every time they bump into somebody, that person follows up, you know, with them because they're like, oh, this guy is. has got it all. So it's not like you're having to scrap or you're having a hustle, you're having to grift. You just turn up, be yourself. And immediately people go, oh, I can make some money out of you. The whole sort of persona is interesting because he's huge. He's kind of in a big, big, big macho sport. But the whole thing with Taylor Swift where he's like, hey, I'm just a plus one. I'm really happy to be here. It's a really, really kind of good vibe. It's interesting that she would sort of end up with him in a way because she, you know, she came to London famously and she had all these kind of English boys, these kind of artistic

souls, you know, and Matihili. And I'm joking, don't be silly. He's very successful. And now she's with this kind of someone you would think was like a big meathead slice of Americana, but actually it's so much more than that. And that's what so, he's really interesting. The way he talks about himself,

he's like a cute alpha. Yeah, it's okay for everyone to like him. And that's like, I'm talking like Red State, Blue State. He's a bit, a little bit like the rock in that way. I mean, although I find the rock infinitely more absurd, as you know, and I like that in my celebrities. But they're all different. But they're all different. They're all different, aren't they? That's why we love celebrities, because they're all different. But there is something incredibly charming and magnetic about him. And to be so, to be really sort of amusing and funny about being hard plus one is just a sort of undercut so much of what you might think came with. It's an amazing cultural moment. By the way, they're in, I think they're in love with each other.

Oh my God, of course they are. Which is great. I'm just checking because sometimes I miss things. But they're in love with each other. But to get to the point where you are so unbelievably famous like he was. And then you think, actually, the best thing I can do for my brand now is to show how unfamous I am. By marrying someone who is, by marrying one of the eight people in America who is more famous than me. It kind of works so beautifully for both them.

How lovely. I mean, one hopes it lasts forever and ever and ever. We haven't even mentioned what he has, which is he has his new Heights podcast, which is absolutely huge. That's that, I think. With his brother. Yeah, with his brother, Jason. And that's the way that people have got to know him. Because I suppose you just, as we know, you're talking for many hours a week.

And it's really, that's been very significant. Obviously, she released her, she announced her latest album. But the thing that he always says is, and I think in terms of what he's interested in doing, acting, all these things is, oh, I know I'm coachable. The brand is a form of humility, weirdly, which when you're kind of six foot five and all-conquering three-time Super Bowl champion is actually quite hard to be humble. A hard to retain, but definitely hard to. to pull off and make it believable. But because we have access to this podcast where you can hear him talking all the time,

you do believe it because you sort of feel like you can't be anything other than authentic. It's hard to be authentic for that length of time. Every week. Yeah. Well, then TV, that's a lovely thing about TV. You can definitely be authentic for a whole career if you're only doing like an hour a week on Saturday nights. Yeah.

But yeah, if you're doing two hours every week with your brother, people soon find you out. I can think of a few people from, you know, the 80s generation of host. if they'd done a podcast, you'd been like, oh, well, that's interesting. I think it would have been compelling. Wouldn't it just? But, yeah, I think of a lot.

Listen, there's lots of problems with AI, but the idea that maybe in 10 years' time we can have, you know, podcast hosted by Jim Davidson and Silla Black together, you'd just think, well, listen, I would listen. I would listen. Yeah, I would listen. I would listen. Are they, Richard, the apex of celebrity couples?

Well, two questions. If you think about the big celeb couples now in the entertainment sphere, you've got Travis and Taylor who are now official you've got the Beckhams who we've spoken about before you got Ryan Reynolds and Blake lively

you've got to put up there Jay Z and Beyonce again we've got some tarnished brands you're firing out now Prince Harry Megan Markle I think have to be in the world of entertainment now I'm hearing their brand

might be vaguely tarnished but carry on even the Obamas I think you have to accept are currently an entertainment brand given you know they're writers and they produce films and stuff like that

of all of those celebrity couples if you had to invite a couple round for dinner and not just oh my God wouldn't it be crazy to me and I'll get loads of stories. But you're genuinely thinking... All of those, all of the... All of those.

Or you can choose models own if you wish and go for something else. No. Yeah, I want... It's you and Ingrid. You and Ingrid. End of. If you and Ingrid can't come... Or maybe you can come as a sex. You can come as a sex.

Well, we'll decide whether we're coming... I like the old style. After I hear who... Well, what about like, you know, Humphie Bogart and Lauren Bacall or like... If you said to me, if you ran me up and said, would you and Ingrid like to come around for dinner? Humphrey Bogot and Lauren Bacall coming around. Firstly, I'd phone your husband and go, is Marina okay? And secondly I'd go, you know what, okay, okay, Frank Sinatra and Ava Gardner?

But really? Yeah, but okay, okay, I know this is a terrible time in her life, but these are two Titans, Marilyn Monroe and Arthur Miller, you're not going to, I mean, I personally would like to have them to dinner. I was thinking Marilyn Monroe and JFK. That would be quite good, Joe DiMaggio even, but yeah. Yeah, that would be quite fun, wouldn't it? Jamie Lee Curtis and Christopher Guest. Oh, there we go. They would be good. Yeah, perfect. This is that great episode of Curbary Enthusiasm where Larry's invited to a dinner party and he says, I'm going to ask you who else is coming. And Cheryl, because you can't ask you to come.

He goes, why can't ask you coming? I've asked. And you said it's Jamie DeColson and Christopher Guest. Yes, please. Okay, what about Burton and Taylor? I wouldn't want necessarily to come to. Oh, no, that is the most iconic in some ways because the most badly behaved, the most disgustingly kind of financially indulgent, the most unfettered ids of all time, maybe.

But you'd have such a bad time. Those people who didn't live their lives in public quite so much it looked like they did at the time except on the front page of the papers but they didn't and you know you look into them you just go oh I don't know if you get on with my friends Oh okay Elton and David 100% Because the gossip would be

Yeah off the scale He doesn't I mean even when he's talking in public He says exactly he's like one of the last celebrities He says exactly what he thinks all the time The gossip would be off scale okay that would be good I think Jay Z and Beyonce would be fun Fun I don't think they'd be the remotest bit of fun You don't think so?

So, what, they'd let the hair down? No, I don't think so. I don't think it would be a laugh. Okay. Do you think you'd have a laugh with Jayze and Beyonce? Yeah, I think I would. Me, yeah, I think I would. I'm good with people. I would have liked Amar and David Bowie. Oh, my God, can you imagine that?

That would have been, I would have loved that. Yeah. And I think you would have had a laugh. What was this item about? I can't remember now. Where are we now? Oh, what about John and Yoko? Again, maybe not a big laugh, but maybe quite a big laugh. Yeah, I think maybe I'd always go with whoever Paul is with.

Yeah. Oh, yes. Yeah. Okay. No, not whoever. With one exception. With one notable. Oh, my God. Enough of your anti-Linda McCartney race. That was not about Linda just for the benefit of the tape. Honestly, honestly, I'd like Taylor and Travis to come over. That is quite frankly. Was that the answer? Well, no, I think, yeah. You were helping me. No, gosh. Not at all because you've absolutely trumped it with Jamie D. Curtis and Christopher guest. That would be mine.

In terms of their net worth, Taylor Swift is 1.6 billion. and Travis is 70 million. Although I imagine he's worth a bit more than that. All of these are those nonsensical figures. Sometimes you get in papers. But she is worth an awful lot more than him. But together, they multiply. And as in every couple, this is how you can always tell if a couple are right for each other,

do they multiply each other or do they divide each other? And they multiply each other for sure. Definitely the richest couple are Jay-Z and Beyonce. Yes. Because, I mean, Beyonce is worth close to a billion. And Jay-Z, because of Rockefeller and Rock Nation and all that, He's like 3.2 billion or something. So they are sort of the most powerful celebrity couple.

But it feels like culturally, Taylor Swift and Travis, Kelsey, they cover such a broad range. Be fascinating. See what they mean, imagine. For this particular cultural moment, they do. Well, listen, write in everybody, which celebrity couple, alive or dead. Rod Stewart and Petty Lackster. Oh, yes. We'd actually like that.

Yeah, we wish Travis and for it's worth, we wish Travis and Taylor all the very best. Very best. How lovely. They're like the Liam Neeson and Pam. Anderson of the next generation. Now there's some aspersions being cast on that relationship, but I don't believe in it. No, I'm not listening. I'm not listening either.

Pam and Liam and Liam coming round? Oh yeah, for definite. For definite. That'd be interesting. Yeah, I know, that'd be great. We're going to need a couple of little camping tables to put at the end of the dining table. That'd be a children's table, which I'd be sitting on. Oh, listen, you have to tell us about Thursday murder club.

The numbers? Yes, please. What can I tell you? Are you allowed to tell us numbers? No, you're allowed to, well, you can tell us a chart position because it's number one. Yeah, well, funny enough, today is, in terms of the economics of these things, it needs to hit a certain number, we'll get the numbers today.

There's a three-day number where you get your numbers for all the English-speaking territories, which is for various reasons, the most important thing for this project that you get there and get a week number, and then you get a 28-day number as well. So the three-day number will come in today as this podcast is coming out, and that's the one that will decide, really, will they do the next movie? We don't have the American numbers store. I can look at the English numbers and they're great and that's lovely and it's done very good business over here. Yeah, worldwide it's number one.

You're talking about the Netflix numbers. Netflix numbers, yeah. Yeah, exactly. Just to be super clear because it is still in the box office. You can still see in theaters. You can still see it in cinemas, absolutely. The economics of it are, to me anyway, are interesting. And, you know, as someone who loves the overnights and loves charts and things like that, I genuinely I have to admit this.

And I've only admits this to Chris Columbus so far. On Saturday, I used my VPN to go through all of the different Netflixes around the world to see where it was on the different charts. And then I sent him a list of where it was number one. He was very happy. I love that he did that. I was going, okay, Bulgaria. There we go. I tried to, just for House of Games completists, I thought I want to see if it's number one in Kazakhstan because that would be fun.

But actually, you can't get the data out of Kazakhstan. So that's a shame. Are you able to see immediate effects on things like, book sales. Are you? Yeah, which is, yeah, it's gone. It's back on the New York Times bestseller list, which is lovely. Yeah, it's really pumped things up, which is, which is great. So people, people are enjoying the movie. I love to see you getting thrown in bone. Yeah. Thank you. That's very, very kind. Oh, I am thrilled for you. It's brilliant, no, it's lovely. And, you know, different things. I hadn't, I hadn't booked a Saudi book tour before this week. And now I have got a big tour. So I'm playing square. Playing square. Yeah, which I'm really looking forward to. I am not doing a Saudi book tour, Daily Express, before you publish that. It's fascinating. We'll get the numbers today. And after a month, when all the numbers have come through, maybe I'll do a dive on how they use their metrics, what they mean,

how Netflix makes its money. Yes, because we know very little about a lot of this stuff. So this would be a genuine window in. Yes, please. Now they won't tell me. Yeah, no, they won't. Yeah. We're going to talk now about Michael Jackson's sort of commercial afterlife.

When Michael Jackson died, he was in, famously, in about half a billion dollars worth of debt. And in fact, that's why he was doing the This Is It Concert Tour. He is now, his estate is now worth at least $3 billion. So we're going to talk a little bit about how they did it. Existing projects and upcoming projects. In terms of how they did it, they did a lot of music catalogue deals, which they sold half of the music catalogue to Sony.

And he had a huge stake in Sony, which already had a percentage of the Beatles catalogue. He had a minority interest. interest in an EMI, which I think they sold. They also started licensing the music for things like Cirque de Soleil shows. So there's things like that, live productions. But the big thing, one of the big things has been MJ the musical, which has had a sort of record-breaking run in New York. I think it's currently on about $300 million in gross earnings. They've sold millions of tickets worldwide. And it's also the perfect answer to the question, do we judge the art by the artist? And the answer is, no, we don't. It does keep a very narrow time frame, that

musical. It's all set before the first Child of East allegations from Georgie Chandra, which were in 19903. And the director and the choreographer of VAT said they wrestled with it, but they decided in the end it was just entertainment. They have freedom of speech machines. Yeah, the freedom of speech machines. It's won a lot of moonwalking machines.

It's won a lot of Tony's, won the Black British Theatre Awards last year, it won big at that. It's very, very successful. Of sort of more forthcoming interest is this movie they're doing. This is really fascinating. This whole story of the movie is really interesting because... He's been played by his own nephew. Jafar Jackson.

Jafar Jackson. How can you call your child Jafar? The movie is really easy to understand. How can you misunderstand Aladdin? Okay, fine. Anyway, it's written by John Logan, who wrote the Aviator, he did The Equalizer, all sorts of things, directed by Anton Farkwell, who did Training Day.

There's a lot... You know, Colman Domingo is in Joe Jackson. Miles Teller is playing a very interesting person who's been a sort of defender of Michael Jackson's legacy. he's called John Branca. So he's one of the guys who was actually behind how much money... He runs the estate,

and he's like an absolute back-to-the-wall defender of Jackson and the legacy. We'll come back to him in a minute. But anyway, this movie was supposed to come out this year. But they have had to go back and reshoot the entire thing because... Well, because... I mean, interestingly, unlike the musical,

they're thinking, no, this is going to be... We're going to tell the whole story. We're not going to back away from this. You know, it's the whole point. You know, we love Michael. so we have to show everything that happened in this life. We're not afraid to take on controversies head on, but it turns out they are not able to. They're not able to because the part of the settlement with Jordy Chandler, the first child to make, that we know about

to make allegations against Michael Jackson that became public in 1993, part of the settlement was that the family would never be portrayed. And in this, they're portrayed as kind of money grubbing and all of that. And in fact, we don't know what, but whether this will be the, in fact, script that was shot. But Matt Bellany, who writes for Park, who is brilliant, who used to be editor of the Hollywood reporter, he now does a podcast called The Town and... He's in the studio as well, isn't he? Yeah, yeah. He saw the script and says it opens with a script. It opens with the police raiding Neverland in 1993 and Jackson being strip search, which he said was the most humiliating moment of his life because the child, Georgie Chandler made various anatomical

claims about him and they were, anyway. So, It definitely didn't shy away from it, but they're not allowed to do any of this. Someone from the Jackson estate did not tell the filmmakers this. You can't actually believe that this much money. This film is incredibly expensive. They've spent a fortune on this film. Considering it's a sort of human story, I think it's way over 150 million, and that's ridiculous.

That's like for CGI movies. Yeah. And it doesn't, it's not full of massive stars. I mean, Coleman Domingo is getting paid a lot, but it's not, yeah, yeah. Yeah, but that's, that talent is nothing on. It's extraordinary the amount of money that's been sent. on this. So they're now going to do that, I think, they're going to do that old new trick, where they're going to divide the movie into two, because apparently there's

so much to say. Well, the film has been pushed back. It's supposed to be April next year. We'll see if it's April next year. It's already been pushed back because unfortunately had to redo the entire last third. But now it's being split. Maybe they won't have to. The thing about him is, is that he is, you know, he is making more money now than he made in the final third of his life because he was dug by all these allegations. And I, you know, I have to say, I think he would have been dogged by them for the rest of his life. It's very interesting how the fans are able to divorce it in so many ways. Leaving Neverland, that documentary, the HBO documentary that came out was very, very interesting.

Two grown men now, Wade Robson and James Safechuck alleged of his abuse of them. It's amazing because if you watch that documentary, it's unbelievably affecting and it's awful, really awful and harrowing. And yet people are still able to say, oh, this is, you know, but you, but you, maintained a relationship with him, something we know we don't necessarily always have to say about people who are in abusive relationships. Your families are money-grobbing, whatever it is. And I'm sort of amazed that the estate survived that because it was really intense. And actually, what's quite interesting is that there is a civil suit coming from both of those guys, from Wade Robson and James Safechuck, against two of Michael Jackson's production companies

saying that, you know, your employees failed to protect us because that's the whole thing about Michael Jackson is that one thing that people always say is that, you know, you lived in a house with masses of servants, not all of whom were chimps, you know, because the chimps were actually put to work around the house. Doing what? Do like window cleaning and stuff.

Moving pianos. Yeah, basically. A chimp was window cleaning? Yeah, yeah. How does that work? Some of them, and it became... That's like getting your kids to do it. You'd have to do it again.

You'd have to do it yourself. after us. Yeah, apparently there were whole issues. There were lots of issues with the chimps. Yeah, I would have thought so. But anyhow, this guy, John Branca, who is going to be in the movie, not so long ago, five men came to him and said that they were going to go public a decade after his death. I think it was 2019. They did a deal with him, the estate in 2020 and said, the whole, the value of the deal was each of you are going to get $3.3 million, but it's in staggered payments and you now have to defend him. Wow.

alleging inappropriate pay, but they did defend him, except one of them, when the last payment was due, said, yeah, you know what, I don't want to do this anymore. I now want $230 million. And so there are all of these things. And there are quotes from John Branca who says, we survived leaving Neverland. But I'm not sure we could have could have with these additional allegations. And he says that the lawyer said to him, you've got no choice. If these people come forward and make these allegations, then Michael is over. His legacy is over. The business is done. And yet it's not done. And so. And so the same time as it has become this sort of unbelievable money-making juggernaut, there are these things going through the courts and coming closer to court or to settlement. We're so siloed still as a culture, aren't we, that actually there are some things that just don't come across enough people's radar. And, you know, all he needs is most of the people who love Michael Jackson to not really hear this stuff. Oh, they hear it, but they don't believe it. They go down internet rabbit holes. We have to say that all of what they've done the estate has worked.

Yeah, haven't it just. He has made, as I say, more money now. than he's made in the last third of his life. He isn't alive to continue doing things that get in his own way. Should we put it that way? And it remains a sort of jugginal. The movie, I think, will be huge. It suddenly needs to be on that budget.

The only things are these constant series of allegations that are working where we're and many, in some cases, are legal submissions and they will have to be dealt with. Yeah. But the estate has done extraordinarily well in the particular circumstances, I would say. And the beneficiaries of the state seem to be his mother who is still with us. And the three children who have been through various troubles but actually seem remarkably stable from the background they come from. Yeah. Blankets changed his name.

Blankets called Begisle or something now, isn't it? But the estate just keeps growing and getting bigger. And so we'll have to see how it plays out. But it's all worked. It's been very tactical. A lot of it stewarded by this guy, John Branca. And it has thus far worked. Have you got a recommendation for us, Richard, now?

If I may, the new Swade album is out on Thursday. Oh, yes, I saw. It's brilliant. It's so great. You know, they're in their late 50s, these guys. And this album is getting five stars everywhere. I know. It's like, and it's a really, really good album.

Sort of post-punky and slightly gothy, slightly rocky. It's just, it's just great. And I'm so proud of my brother. And it's a great album. I've loved all the interviews. They've done some good interviews. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, they're, they are, I'd say, more comfortable with themselves than they were in the 90s.

Yeah, definitely. And yeah, lovely to see them living their best lives. But antidepress. it's called and it's a it's an absolute stormer well i think that about wraps us up a lot of controversy today yeah yeah yeah apart from we love chavis kelsey yes a strangely oddly uncontroversial position yeah thank you in a world in a world of schism he he brings us together now a very exciting bonus episode this week the dream for both you and me but particularly we are going behind the scenes on transfer deadline day at

Sky Sports News. So our lovely producer, Joey, is not with us because he is. I think he got there at 4 a.m. this morning. So he's going to talk you through what a production that is. They're on the air like all day long doing transfer deadline day down at Sky Sports. So all the behind the scenes of how that's put together. Iconique, I think it's fair to say. Icon.Eek, exactly.

So that will be for members on Friday. Anyway, if you want to join and have ad-free listening, etc., etc., it's the rest isentatement.com. Otherwise, we will be back as usual. on Thursday. See you on Thursday. This episode is brought to you by the TV from Sky, Sky Glass. Think of Skyglass as the pit crew Ferrari didn't know it had. Fine-tuning every detail for the perfect lap. It keeps the drama where it belongs on screen, never in your setup, and turns your living room into the podium. With Skyglass's 4K HDR picture, colours burn brighter, shadows swallow you whole and auto-adjust optimises to whatever you're watching,

from race day glare over Italian hills to the low-lit drama of Enzo's dining table. Plus, crisp Dolby Sound delivers every roar, rumble and whisper in rich cinematic detail. Wire-spoke wheels hiss over wet tarmac, gear shifts crack like a starter's pistol, and quiet confessions carry the weight of a checkered flag. And with your apps and channels all in one place, finding Ferrari or whatever you love, is as quick and precise as a pit stop without the tire smoke. Watch Ferrari on Sky Cinema now or visit Sky.com for more information. Requires relevant Sky TV subscriptions, Broadband recommended, minimum speed, 30 megabits per second, 18 plus.

UK, Channel Islands and Isle of Man only.