The Rest Is Entertainment - The Cult Of British Celebrity Boyfriends

Episode Date: October 20, 2025

Why do Americans keep dating British men? Is the UK music industry about to collapse? Who will be this year's Christmas bestseller? Richard Osman and Marina Hyde take you on a 'spotter's guide' of the Great British Celebrity Boyfriend - the scarf wearing, dog walking and Lime biking heartthrob that has caught the attention of all the hottest Hollywood celebs. Yes, this is a thing. Yes we have a top ten. Warner Music's radical company restructure has left its UK office as a simple satellite of their American HQ - what does this mean for the struggling British music industry? Who will top the book charts come December 25th? And finally, Richard Osman consults his crystal ball to predict the biggest Christmas bestsellers this year. Recommendations: Marina - Riot Women (BBC), The Chair Company (Sky Comedy) Join The Rest Is Entertainment Club: Unlock the full experience of the show – with exclusive bonus content, ad-free listening, early access to Q&A episodes, access to our newsletter archive, discounted book prices with our partners at Coles Books, early ticket access to live events, and access to our chat community. Sign up directly at therestisentertainment.com The Rest Is Entertainment is proudly presented by Sky. Sky is home to award-winning shows such as The White Lotus, Gangs of London and The Last of Us. Requires relevant Sky TV and third party subscription(s). Broadband recommended min speed: 30 mbps. 18+. UK, CI, IoM only. To find out more and for full terms and conditions please visit Sky.com For more Goalhanger Podcasts, head to www.goalhanger.com Video Editor: Charlie Rodwell Senior Producer: Joey McCarthy Social Producer: Bex Tyrrell Exec Producer: Neil Fearn Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

This episode is brought to you by our good friends at Sky. From Small Talk to Sunday lunch, it seems that everyone has a take on the latest shows. With Sky's Essential TV package, you can too. Just £15 a month gets used Sky TV and Netflix together, the programmes everyone's dissecting, quoting or bluffing their way through at dinner. On Sky, you've got the Irish Affair, Atomic and the best from Sky Atlantic on Netflix, there's House of Guinness, Stranger Things and so much more. Series that start conversations more effectively than Rail Strikes or Royal Weddings.

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And me, Richard Osmond. Hello, everybody. Hello, Marina. Hello, Richard. How are you? I'm not bad. How are you this week? I'm not doing too badly.

I know you've got a big move this week. Yes, a house move this week. Let's not even talk about it. Let's not even talk about it. I don't deal well with transitional periods. No. I don't deal well with interregnums. I find it very, very difficult.

Until everything is like normal again, I will be slightly discompobulated. Until the restoration of your monarchy. Exactly that. But this is a lovely little break for me, because I'm, I know how to do this. This is all fine. Thank you, by the way, everyone, for all your amazing feedback for our celebrity traitors' episodes, which have been an awful lot of fun. They've been going great guns.

We have enjoyed them so much, and more to come, more to come. But what are we talking about today? Well, Richard, every now and then, as you know, we do a sort of fashion item. I want to talk about an extremely hot accessory, which is the British celebrity boyfriend, a field guide to this particular type. You'll hear more when we do the idea. I'm so looking forward to hearing about that. We're also going to talk about what is happening at Warner Music in the UK

and what it means for the whole of the music business. It's quite an interesting story, that, about where the music business is going. I think it's really interesting. There's also some familiar names as well. Yes. We'll crop up there. And what's going to be a Christmas number one book this year as well? And also a few suggestions for books you might not have heard of that would make very, very good Christmas presents.

If it's not too worthy to say that. I'll be writing them down. Okay. The British Celebrity Boyfriend of Field Guide. By Marina Hines. Okay, before we go on to it, just define what you mean by British Celebrity Boyfriend, what we call the BCB. Yeah. We do now.

The BCB must be in the creative industries himself. Yeah. He must be British, although there's one who isn't. Okay. This is good And really he must be going out with an American An American

So attracts American Women from LA American women going out With a British person And hanging around in London I know exactly where we are Let's go Olivia Wilde

Who you may know has previously dated Harry Stiles Director Booksmart She directed Harry Styles In Don't Worry Darling With Florence Pug There was a huge drama about the whole press tour

of that one That's a whole other day. And, of course, she sent kids in America and wrote the Ballad of Redding Jail. She is now dating Ellie Goulding's ex-Casper Joplin, okay? Who's a gallery owner, right? Is he? That's not a job you sort of work your way up to, I always think. Now, she, having gone out with Harry Stiles, I would say she's a connoisseur of the British celebrity boyfriend, and there is a type.

Well, he's like, presumably, you'll know more about it than me. I'm going to do the league table. But he's the exemplar, surely. Listen, I won't preempt anything you have to say. I will do the top 10 of British celebrity boyfriends. In what order? And I'm even going to start at 10. Wow, amazing.

You really are taking this seriously. I couldn't be taking it more seriously. Okay, so who is the British celebrity boyfriend? Okay, number one, he's sensitive and artistic. He has to be in the creative industries, right? He can't be a footballer. What about Gary Linneka, though? Could he be a great British boyfriend?

He's a footballer? No. No, they can't be footballers. Okay. You can take the man out of football, but you can't. can't take football out of the moment. No, I don't think, no, that's not what I'm talking about. He would be the closest.

And I'll tell you what, okay, let me ask you, how many scarves do you think Gary owns? I think he's out by a factor of 10. The British celebrity boyfriend owns a huge number of scarves. And presumably Lester City scarves don't count. No, no, no, no, no. I mean, you could have one ironic one, even if it was your club. Where would they get their scarf just out of interest? I've never really been confident with scarves.

Let's start with that, how they dress. Let's start with the sartorial type of the British You don't see them like with these Americans, you know, they're never out of exercise clothes, okay. No. You might see a leather boot. Right. You might, you will certainly see a wool coat, not a technical jacket of any type, with the sole exception if you might be walking the dog in Richmond Park, thanks Tom Holland, or in Hamstead Heath. So Tom Holland is a British celebrity boyfriend.

He'll very much be in the top ten. Okay, great. Tom Holland will very much be in the top ten. Okay. The actor, not the co-host of the rest of his history. No, not the co-hosts. Is he in the top 10 as well? No, he's not.

The other clothes, I mean, if they've done a promotional tour, e.g. Paul Mescal. Of course, he is Irish, but I know what you mean. He's got a very British fame. That's a tricky one. Where can the British celebrity boyfriend be found? Let me tell you, walking your dog with you on a pavement in North London, the person who he is the British celebrity boyfriend, too, is always an American. I'm sorry, it just doesn't matter if...

Well, that's where the Britishness comes in, because there's lots of British boyfriend. it. There's also British people who have British boyfriends. Yeah. And there may be other people from continental Europe or indeed Australia. But you're with in America. Or Ireland. Or Ireland. Where else might you see them? Certainly outside certain pubs in West London and North London, drinking a pint of Camden House and making a roll up, okay? You're not, sorry, you're not having your supper at 5.30. Now, you are in a cross-cultural relationship, I should say. So you have to learn to do these

things with the British celebrity boyfriend. So you love them and you tell interviewers how much you enjoy them and how refreshing it is. And you say, I'll tell you how it all ends at the end, by the way. Oh, not well. Yes, so you get people who are essentially from California and suddenly they're outside of British pub with both hands around a pint. Yeah, yeah, and they love pints, and they want to tell you about a pint. That they're not British, they won't do the one-handed.

They can't, no, they don't drink a one-handed pint. You might see them at Wimbledon, the British Celebrity Boyfriend. They won't wear their sunglasses all day at Wimbledon because they understand it's not a Malibu wedding. So they understand that that's just not. what you do. You'll find them on a line bike. They love line bikes. Now, Timothy Salome, who I'm afraid can't be a British celebrity boyfriend, is American, could play one in a film, and I think would do it very convincingly. He, of course, rode a line bike all the way

up the red carpet of the London premiere of a complete unknown. But you know what, of course, he's with a Kardashian, and you know, they don't like old antiques, they like reproduction things. So in my view, in a way, he's a bit of a reproduction British celebrity boyfriend. Like a French copy. Yeah, like a French. I'd love it if his line bike was doing the beep, beep, beep noise that you hear everywhere around London when people are stolen on a line bike. Yes, that would have been good all the way out the red carpet.

But, okay, so that's what you'll find him. Now, where's he going to take you, as I've just said, a football match? He will take you to a football match. Don't worry, it probably only has to happen once. The game's last 90 minutes, that's 9-0. It will probably be Premier League. It could be championship depending on the British celebrity boyfriend, but just say you love the energy.

It was brilliant. And then all the other times you're asked just saying, I'm getting an eyebrow shape. That's good. And when they say, and did you have a pie? Just go, yes? Most crucially, you will find the British celebrity boyfriend kissing in the street, okay?

That's how they found out that Olivia was with Caspar Joplin because she's kissing him in the street. They all kiss in the street, okay? You will always find pictures of them kissing in the street. Maybe outside one of those pubs I was talking to, maybe on the dog walk, but they kiss in the street. You are in a cross-cultural relationship and things are very, very different.

have a basic level of RNA you're dealing with now. There's a lot of things that the American with the British celebrity boyfriend is having to take on board. I spoke to a friend of mine who comes from a very well-to-do background. You wouldn't know. He's lovely. And he has an American wife. He said it's great because when you take an American home to your parents, they have no

idea what class she is. So they're just very accepting. He's had partners before who they're like, yeah, I don't know. Is she one of us? And with Americans, they're like, no. Maybe. So it kind of works for everyone. Because I think, by the way, a lot of these celebrity boyfriends come from quite moneyed backgrounds.

Quite a lot of them do. We'll see you in the top ten. We'll see when we get to the top. I know what you mean. I know what you mean. Casper Joplin, for example, would be... Oh, yeah. Well, because his father was the subject of the famous Alan Clark diss saying that he'd had

to buy his own furniture. That was about Michael Joplin. When Alan Clark, as a sort of frightfully awful, a naughty Tory minister said that he had to by his own furniture. I mean, as someone who's just bought two sofas discovered their wrong and is going to have to send them back at long length of time

to be replaced to two slightly different sofas in the same colour, I have to say, Alan, you're missing out on all the fun. This is what furniture buying is like. Yeah, this is not essentially the rest of the entertainment, but genuinely, what is it with lead times on sofas?

I mean, it's extraordinary. I mean, something's up there, isn't it? I mean, that feels like the mafia are involved somehow in sofas because they're like 16 weeks. I mean, you make a lot of them and it's literally all you do and you know that people like them, I don't think it's taking 16 weeks to make a sofa. I bet you it doesn't in America. But some places as well.

Just to try and desperately wrestle it back towards our topic. I bet you it doesn't in America. In fact, actually, if you are... Do you know what? I have not finished on sofas. I'm so sorry. Did you look at me and think I'd finished on sofas? I'm so sorry, I should know, because you are moving.

You really misread me. Because there are some places who say, we'll deliver you a sofa tomorrow. So just be like those places. Yes. Anyway, that's all I have to say about that. Okay, I'm so sorry. I can't be off before that. If you make sofas, have sofas available.

If we can just wrestle it back, okay, the home of the British celebrity boyfriend. Let's move it on to that. What you'll always notice when you read about celebrity properties in Los Angeles is the relationship of bathrooms to bedrooms. Any British celebrity boyfriend will live in a property that has either the same amount of bathrooms to bedrooms, pretty nice, or, as is more usual, fewer. In America, it's always like they have six bedrooms and 12 bathrooms. You see, this is why Megan, when she was with her British celebrity boyfriend, now husband, she was absolutely appalled that she lived in this Nottingham cottage. I was a little bit like, hey, you know, you've got no kids.

You're living in a two-bedroom, Christopher Wren cottage in the central Kensington. It's not that bad. But Oprah came around and said it was very small. So this is something that happens with the British Celebrity boyfriend. you're not, you haven't got one of those things where the pool house is slightly larger than number 10 Downing Street, which is what we live. So you get upsides, which is you get to go to pubs and you get to go to championship football, but there are downsides in that there are fewer bathrooms than you are used to.

There are, there can it be dangerous, yeah. I think it can be actually a almost tip over into a disorder because don't forget Guy Ritchie was once a British celebrity boyfriend. Of course he was. Of course, he's an exemplar as well. Can I ask another, just a very quick sartorial thing. I know we've had the wool on overcoats and the scarfs and what have you. where do we stand? Because to my mind, if I picture a British celebrity boyfriend, there is often a flat cap.

Many different types of cap, certainly something influenced by Peeky Blinders and more of a Tommy Shelby, a baker. But, you know, yes, absolutely. Headgear is a thing and not a baseball cap, except sometimes if it's a really busy pub. Guy Ritchie was a British celebrity boyfriend. The woman to whom he was a British celebrity boyfriend and then later husband, Madonna. Here you've got an amazing situation. One of the world's coolest people from Detroit. comes over and then starts getting, has got completely hamstrung by this business,

starts talking about like shooting weekends and pheasants. Yeah. I remember feeling at the time this is so awful. Donnie, you have a responsibility to be American and cool. You know, if I wanted to be bored to tears by this stuff, I would have married someone like moving, move back to the country. Did she think that he was a bona fide cockney? Well, no, because I don't think she would have, that would have been appealing to her.

He had to drop the Cockney Act at that point. And come back to what he was. No, then you were like, oh, I'm the sort of person who go and live in Cecil Beaton House. And my stepmother's like chairman of the Kensington and Chelsea Conservative Party Association. So I think you just suddenly, you know, he's had a very fluid sort of supposed social background. Yes, he's, you know, for someone who went to boarding school. And as I say, when they found their mother's house, it was so big. It had to be printed over a spread in the daily mail.

Wow. Yeah, he's had a head of a journey through the British class system, hasn't he? Well, in fact, it's been incredibly static. So that was an example of a disorder, which. which she eventually managed to cure herself of. Yes. Thank goodness. And he remains, you know, a British boyfriend and a British husband, but not a celebrity one.

Oh, is it? Why? Has he aged out of it? Yeah, I think he has aged out of it. There are a couple in my top ten who are sort of nearly ageing out of it. I've got to have one in there because a British celebrity boyfriend has been released back onto the market. Oh, really? Yeah. Let's do the top ten. Let's get to the top ten now.

Shall we? Wow. Right. At ten, I'm going to put Casper Joplin. because we've got to assume that Olivia Wilde is a connoisseur after Harry Stiles, that she would be a connoisseur. I mean, that's tough to go out with someone after they've gone out with Harry Stiles. Having said that, there's quite a few of those people. So with the most respects and love to him, there are quite a few of those people.

So I think, you know, you have to be aware that you might be called up at some point to go out with someone who's gone out with Harry Hattstiles at some point. I suppose one assumes, yes, in certain circles, that your partner has dated Harry Stiles unless told otherwise. Yeah. I think it's probably better to regard it as a sort of opt-out thing. So we'll put Jopling at 10 because I think, you know, he's certainly one to watch. And he's a galleryist.

So he's not really a celebrity, but he's sort of... He's a sub-lebrity, yeah. But he could become a celebrity. Well, that's it because the whole idea of these relationships is you multiply rather than divide. Absolutely. So, you know, it amplifies both of your celebrities in interesting ways. Very much so. Now, at nine, released recently back on the market after Katie Perry has taken up with former Canadian leader, Justin Trude.

Oh, yes. Is Orlando Bloom? I almost feel he's aging at. But listen, he's been a British celebrity boyfriend to Katie Perry, to Kate Bosworth. Imagine how many scars he's got. And every morning after, remember after his turkey and kale smoothie or whatever he has, he goes often to his little production company office to come up with roles for women, minority. and myself.

So that is mega British celebrity and number eight I'm going to have Joe Alwyn but just he was with Joe Alwyn yeah he was with Taylor Swift for a long time

Okay I haven't And he's in so many ways even though it's only with one person it was a long relationship he was a very iconic Taylor Swift boyfriend and I feel there's more to give there so I've got to put him at number eight

especially as it's Taylor Swift I mean that that's a multiple isn't it? Now at seven and we're currently with a Brazilian but I just feel this person potentially has a huge amount to offer to the British celebrity boyfriend market

and I don't want it to feel like it's a hegemonita that young people can't break into. Cruz Beckham. Oh, really? Come on. Come on. Oh, yes. So Cruz is the youngest son? Yes. I mean, there is obviously an elder British celebrity boyfriend now, husband,

but he's no longer spoken of. And what does Cruz do? Cruise is a musician. New music is coming imminently. imminently, he's been wearing t-shirts with the release date on it a lot and I honestly think it's like coming in the next 10 minutes practically. Oh my God, I mean that feels like

a future episode. And is he a solo artist or is he in a band I bet he's a solo artist? I think he's sort of one of those people who do to practice this with the band but we don't know what the band is so I think it's one of those sort of bands. I imagine that if they did, you know, the band is relatively interchangeable.

Yes. At number six I've got Prince Harry. Okay, yeah, yeah. Now he is in many ways he's a lot, come on, he's got a lot of scarves. Yeah, you know, you've got to be able to deal with a certain level of Americana. Yeah. You see him outside a pub with a pint. He's comfortable with that.

Well, I mean, I think, I'm not sure he's allowed to do those things anymore. And it's not just because of the home office, not doing the security. But he, I think, so he's there. He comes from quite a well-to-do background, doesn't he? I'm told. I'm told, yeah. And, you know, would live in a house with, actually, I think it has got something like eight bedrooms and 16 bathrooms.

Yes, that's whenever you see people in the supermarket buying like 16 packs of toilet roll. Yeah, one for everyone. I think you either got a big family or a lot of bathrooms. Yeah, and if you went down to the Costco and Montecito, I think he'd be in there doing... I don't think he'd be in there. I think also there's a Costco and Montecito. It was just for the purposes of a joke. Can I tell you who I found out?

Yeah. Can I tell you who I found out is married almost into royalty? Who? Mike Skinner. Oh, yeah. From the streets. Yeah. But yeah, he literally has someone to dry his eyes.

for him now. Yeah. At five, I have Andrew Garfield. Now, he is... I think I get Andrew Garfield and Orlando Bloom mixed up. Yeah. But no, I know. Well, no.

I mean, he's further out at the table because more desirable in all manners. He's been out with Emma Stone, Monica Barbaro now. So at number... Monica who? Barbaro. Monica Barbaro. Okay. At number four, we have Tom Holland.

You know, engaged to send out. I love Tom Holland. The constancy there. is lovely, and we love to see that. So that is a, he's a really classic. But he's like a proper, like of all the people you've mentioned, he's someone that I would go out with, if you know what I mean. Yeah.

What's from with Andrew Garfield? Were the world a different shape? Would you? With Andrew Garfield? Oh, I love him. Oh, really? That's interesting. The one who was on chicken shop dates.

There's some other ones that aren't on here. You know, I think just haven't been a British celebrity, but James Norton has a huge amount to offer as a British celebrity boyfriend. Hasn't been one yet, but could be. Jack Loudon? No, because they're married and they've got to be. Oh, congratulations. Which is lovely.

I loved, yeah, but no. And his wife. He would have made a good one though. I'm struggling with the placing of the top three, or the second, or the two and three. I'm genuinely really excited about this. Well, you know he's number one, but two and three. I don't. Two and three, I think I'll have to make them equal third.

Equal second. Yeah. Oh, don't you say equal third? No. No, because you got number one, then you got two equal seconds, then you got a fourth. Okay. Because otherwise who's number two? Sometimes people say equal third.

No. They don't. If you were going the other way around. In sport, it can happen. No. No, I'm so sorry. Okay. Well, it happened.

Sometimes they'll say first, equal second, and then third. You go, no, if there's two people who are equal second, then you're fourth. I'm not going to get too hard into this because we've got to talk about the list. Mascale. Come on. Mascar. I think he should be third because he's not British. Yeah, so do I.

Yeah. That's a really easy way of doing it. Okay. Unlike Craig Revell Hallwood, he was casting vote. Currently with Gracie, Abraham, obviously. Previously, previously, Phoebe Bridges, yes. Got to think could go much further in this particular category as time goes on. I mean, he's a catch.

Yes. It must be weird to be Paul Mescal or any of these people. Because, you know, he still has to just, you know, like all of us who've had relationships, you've still got to have a relationship. And you can't at any point wake up in the morning and go, I'm one of the great boyfriends. I'm on the absolute world, you know, one of the great catches. You know, you have to go, oh, I must, I must meet you a cup of tea. Yes, you have to.

And I think you would. I think Mattel's making you a cup of tea for no, absolutely no question. Certainly taking you out to sit outside a pub. Louis Partridge, come on. Louis Partridge? Yeah, currently with Olivia. I have never heard that name before. Actor?

No. Never, never, ever. In lots of different things. Alan Partridge. House of Guinness. Olivia Rodriguez. Oh, I like Olivia Rodriguez. Yeah, okay.

If he was like in front of me in the queue at Costa, wouldn't know him. Louis Partridge. Okay, tell me about Louis Partridge. Well, I'm telling you, he's, he's, he's, you know, you've got to be wry about it. You've got to say, oh, I just enjoy being the plus one, even though you're forging a big career yourself and you're kind of like a hot young actor that's getting lots of different things. So I would definitely put him, and I think he has a lot more to give in this department because he's very young. Okay, I think if you called Olivia Rodrigo and then you got married and you called Olivia Partridge, I think that's a downgrade. She'll probably keep her name, Richard. She's an international superstar. I would hope so.

Okay. Now, number one. Number one. For heritage reasons and now reasons, and for all the reasons, it obviously has to be Harry Stiles. Of course. Olivia Wilde, who brought us to this item in the first place, he's gone out with. Kendall Jenner, Taylor Swift, I mean, several others. Did you go out with Taylor Swift? And now Zoe Kravitz.

Okay. Harry Stiles is out there being absolute a British celebrity boyfriend the entire time. God, Lenny Kravitz must be going, call that a scarf. Yeah, it's call that a scarf. I've got some scarves. But yeah, he can't beat her dad on the scarves. and he will certainly own more scarves than her father. He seems like a nice guy, Harry Stiles, as far as I can make out.

Everyone loves Harry Stiles. I've never heard anyone say about him. This is what I mean. These guys do tend to be really nice guys. Yes, there's some good ones on that list. I mean, there's some slightly preposterous one. Of course there are. Prince Harry in Orlando.

But that's like met, I mean, in any list of ten men, most of them are going to be preposterous. We've all met men. But I would say that's... But Stiles is the master of the form. Now, if you're asking me how this all ends... Yes, please. I have to say that looking at the form book, it generally ends with you, going back to America and marrying like a, you know, ballplay or an ice road trucker or something like that and writing a song like wood. I don't make the rules.

Maybe the cultural divide can't be breached in perpetuity. So there's a lovely American thing where they get to have a little kind of British holiday. In fact, like the holiday. Yes. Like that movie, right? Well, that is a field guide, I hope, to something. And you can see them doing all of these things. I mean, you know, just run your way through Google Images.

You'll find them all on lime bikes outside, you know, holding a Camden Hells, walking a dog in North London. These, this is the type, these are the activities. Keep watching because new ones keep coming onto the scene. And, you know, don't assume that top 10. Oh, it can change. It can change. That can change.

It's fluid. Will you at any point just update us occasionally? I will update you, yes. If there's a new entry in that list. If people are coming in on and off the month. If, for example, Caspar Joplin doesn't have the longevity that we're currently thinking he might do. Well, then it would be interesting to see what he does next. That was an education.

Thank you so much. Thank you. I hope you have more neurons now than when we started. Genuinely, I love it. I genuinely love hearing about people I've never heard of before. Above all, I want this podcast to be improving. And I think that really was mission statement critical. It is.

It's like when you finish listening to Diary of a CEO and think, great, I've got five of a takeaways for my life there, which I would instantly forget. Thank you. We're the same, aren't we? You're welcome. You're so welcome. After the adverts, when we're going to talk about Warner Music, I have, there's a British celebrity boyfriend in that.

I know who you mean. As well. Potential British celebrity boyfriend, big time. We can talk about that. Marina, thank you so much. Shall we have some ads? Let's do that. This episode is brought to you by Sky and the brand new series All Her Fault.

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Turns and conditions apply. Learn more at amex.ca.com. This episode is brought to you by Peloton. A new era of fitness is here. Introducing the new Peloton Cross Training Tread Plus, powered by Peloton IQ. Built for breakthroughs with personalized workout plans, real-time insights, and endless ways to move. Live with confidence. while Peloton IQ counts reps, corrects form, and tracks your progress.

Let yourself run, lift, flow, and go. Explore the new Peloton Cross-Training Treadplus at OnePeloton.ca. Welcome back, everybody. By the way, I should mention that our Thursday Q&A is with Ben Elton, the writer of so many amazing things, from The Young Ones to Blackadder to all. We have had a lot of questions for Ben Elton, and we will be putting the best ones. We're putting them.

And some of the worst ones to him. On Thursday. We are now going to talk about all the dramas at Warner Music and what that sort of means for the British music industry and also globally. Yeah, the British music industry is the thing. Anyone who's in the British music industry, what's recently happened at Warner's, everyone is up in arms and we'll discuss why that might be. The context of this whole thing is most of the world's recorded music is controlled by three. companies. It's a universal music group. It's Sony music and it's Warner's music. The Majors. The Majors, exactly. And they controlled about 70% of the market, which might as well be pretty much.

Every single big act you've ever heard of are on one of those labels in the UK or in the US or whatever. Run by, and some of these, remember some of these names, Warner's music is owned by Len Blavatnik, friend of the podcast, 824, all of that kind of stuff. Billionaire who runs absolutely everything. Remember the surname Blavatnik. we'll get on to it again. The other two, Universal and Sony, are run by Lucian Grain, runs Universal Music Group, and Rob Stringer runs Sony.

Both Brits, by the way. And that's significant because Britain punches far, far, far above its weight in music. And it has done forever and ever and ever. It was New York, L.A., and then London. You want to go back to the Beatles? I mean, we just,

we absolutely are one of the big powers in recorded music, which is why our music industry has always been so huge, why it's always been so loved, why, you know, the heritage of it is so huge and why it's just fetishized by everyone around the world, British music. Now, about a month ago, Warner's UK, a guy called Tony Harlow, leaves being the head of Warner's UK.

Who do they replace him with? Nobody. Okay. So nobody now runs Warner's UK. And they're not waiting for somebody or they're not putting out for tender. They just don't think that Warner's UK needs somebody running it. So Warner's UK has now run from America. So it's run by Warner's and run by Atlantic Records as well.

Yeah, they have Atlantic and Warner and those are the two sort of big labels under the Warner Music Aegis. So Warner's, which is the label, which, you know, it's bought us Led Zeppelin, David Bowie, Pink Floyd, Iron Maiden, Radiohead, Charlie XX, X, Deer Leaper, Stormsy, Fred again. I mean, it's this huge thing. There is now a sense that nobody in the UK needs to run. We don't need any British input into how Warner's is run. It is run instead from America. The apartment heads reporting to big American executives. So what is a record company? Essentially, if you're Warner's, you know, record companies do an awful lot of terrible things, but they are sort of a glue which hold the whole of the British

music industry together. They have A&R people. They have people with amazing ears who, you know, know a hit when they hear it. They'll bring bands on. They'll develop bands. They will introduce bands other types of music, there's just this thing that this kind of lifeblood running through the whole of British music, these record companies have been incredibly important. We now feel that, certainly warners feel it, whatever, what Sony and Universal are going to do, we will get on to. But there's this feeling that that is no longer how we discover music, that's no longer how we grow music, that actually this whole kind of phalanx of A&R people and, you know, Brits with great ears in tiny pubs in northern towns, you know, finding the next big thing.

Or, you know, Alan McGee finding Oasis in Glasgow. That is not where we find our music anymore. That is not how we grow our music anymore. Everything we do pretty much, and this is a simplification, but not much of a simplification. Everything we do is via TikTok. That's where we can instantly road test new songs, new artists, new looks. We can absolutely get in real-time feedback on what music is going to sell. what music appeals to what demographic and what music appeals in which countries.

And it means that there is a move afoot to kind of abandon everything that British music was to kind of go, oh no, these people who managed to find, you know, Pink Floyd and these people who managed to sort of understand what Zeppelin were and, you know, who helped Bowie along the road, it's not, that is not the thing we need. The market will do this job for us. And the market can be run out of America very, very, very easily. So it sounds like it's a minor thing that a man leaves his job running the Warner's record labels in the UK and isn't replaced. But actually it's a huge cultural shift. Sony and Universal, the first thing of course that they'll be doing is they'll be on the phone to Colplay and Ed Sheeran and do a leaper and

saying, you know, you don't have a sort of British representation anymore. You know you're not being run out of Britain anymore. Perhaps you'd like to come to us. That'd be the first thing they're doing. I do think it's interesting that the last two major artists that were broke internationally in the UK and we haven't had any for a long time, I would say were Dewe Leaper and Charlie XX. Yeah. And even Charlie XX maybe isn't at that Deweepa level of being a sort of global superstar yet. But there hasn't really been anyone since then, because the charts are US dominated. Yeah, and the charts are US dominated because the pipeline into the chart is almost entirely TikTok. So if I'm Universal or Sony, the first thing I'm doing

I'm talking to Ed Shear and talking to Colplay, Duolipa, saying, come and see us. But the second thing I'm doing is just keep an eye and see how this goes for six months at Warner's. And if it works okay for Warner's, do exactly the same thing, which is we don't really need this kind of British, you know, label here. You know, the Germans are doing the same thing. You know, Germany has ceded control of the German market to other territories. You know, all of these record companies will be kind of going. I mean, do we really need this sort of phalanx of people, you know, operating out of London and Manchester and Glasgow and Dublin and Belfast, you know, do we need that stuff or do we really just need?

The algorithm to work for us. You'd have all these things. You had all the different gatekeepers. You'd have press and radio and TV and even latterly, I suppose, curated playlists, things like that. None of those move to dial anymore. They're effectively now legacy media. They used to work.

That was the apparatus that record companies used in order to promote and get their artists discovered and all of those things. And by the way, they absolutely abused that process. It never worked perfectly, but at least, you know, great stuff did rise to the top. But now it is all done, as you say, by the algorithms principally of TikTok. As these people said in their own statement, you know, weight of population matters hugely. And even people at Warner's have said that in their own statements. It's like, in the Anglophone world, the US is going to dominate.

And you have to be a success on streaming instantly. And you have to be a success globally or it doesn't work. And really you have to be, in this case, in success in the Anglophone world. And I think that it's very difficult for them to argue against this population. And we can do so much more for you, as they put it, headcount right-sizing, one of those euphemisms. And so you think, okay, well, who runs Atlantic Records over in the States, who are now essentially overseeing Warner's UK and overseeing all those new bands and young bands and, you know, the pipeline that we've known and loved for many, many years?

who is running Atlantic Records. Two people, and the surnames will be familiar to anybody who was listening to the people who run the big record labels because one is Val Blavatnik, who is Len Blavatnik's son, who's on the board of Warner Music Group in the States and runs Atlantic Records. And the other is Elliot Grange, who is the son of Lucian Grange, who runs the Universal Music Group.

I'm not saying there's any nepotism here at all, but certainly two of the men who run the two biggest music groups in the world, their two sons are running Atlantic records are now in charge of all of Warner's music but by the way, Elliot Grange absolutely could be a British celebrity boyfriend who's he dating? Sophia Ritchie, who is a sort of

Nepo model slash influencer she's Lionel Ritchie's daughter Nicole Ritchie's sister I think they're married now and they have children Yes, they seem very happy and she's Kardashian adjacent Yes, she is. Everything is becoming a singularity

Yeah, it is. Every single thing is becoming a singularity. Everything flows through a very small group of people. Now, Elliot Grange, well and good saying, is a Nepo baby, but, you know, he out of college, you know, started running music nights and started, you know, promoting things. Hip-hop. Then sits up a record label.

It's so Kendall. Sorry, it's so Kendall. I mean, Kendall from Succession, not Kendall, Jenna. Yeah, the other dynasty, yes. Yes. Given what his dad does. Oh, you know, he's got a hip-hop label. He used to do spread betting when he was a teenager on gold, sugar and oil.

Did he? I keep thinking of Kendall. just saying that, just trying to destroy Volta when he's in that scene at the session saying the only two verticals that are working of food and weed. That's the sort of person I see, Eric Ranger, as you know, when we talked about nightclubbing and what had ruined it,

and one of my things that I said had ruined it was bottle service. Yes. When he was at university, he ran a bottle, he started up a sort of bottle service promotion thing in Boston nightclubs where he went to college. But he set up his own record label, 10K records, and he absolutely plowed the TikTok Farrou,

Ice Spice would be probably the biggest act that he has on that label. He's obsessed for SandCloud as well. He just thinks it's like a place where you can see immediately, you can reach out immediately to people. You can see the average age of people using it is like something ridiculous, like 19 or 20, and you can see what they're doing immediately. And by the way, he's right. Yeah.

I mean, that is, it's an incredibly useful tool if you are a record company executive. And, you know, his record label did well, and now he's running at Atlantic. But by the way, his father, Lucian Grains, did things a completely different way. and he grew universal music group to, you know, billions upon billions upon billions of value by doing things the old way, the traditional way. So perhaps that works as well. So Elliot Grange got into Atlantic Records

via the medium of having his own label, which was very, very, very TikTok influence. So that is definitively the way that Atlantic Records is going to go, which means that's the way that Warner Music is going to go as well. So if you talk to anyone who's in the British music business, it's sort of they just feel sad, I think. I think they feel like an era, has ended. I think they feel like the organic way in which bands used to grow and acts used to grow

can't really happen anymore. I think they feel like they are resigned to the algorithm deciding everything that we are going to listen to. And again, algorithms sometimes, you know, worked for a very good reason. So, you know, there's all sorts of bands who wouldn't have been discovered, who will be discovered because of the algorithm. But we are losing a subculture over here. I get it. If I was in the British music business, I'd feel much the same, despite, by the way, as we say, the many, many, many excesses of the British music business over the years and the many issues with it. But what you would hope, it does provoke a reaction. You would hope that actually, if Warner Music and if, you know, Sony Universal follow their lead over here, if suddenly they abandon that whole network of A&R people and then of, you know, bands and acts organically growing and, you know, subcultures and certain. and cities spawning acts who then team up with each other and then suddenly you've got this stuff, then you have to figure that the independent sector will find a way to make money will suddenly go. It's all very well finding, you know, a big hit on TikTok, which is one minute,

20 seconds long and has this amazing hook which hits exactly the right time and exactly the right video. That's all grand and there's loads of money to be made in it. But does that mean you're going to find Adele or Coldplay or Stormsy? I mean, almost certainly not. No major. even can make a deal with an artist in the way that they would have been able to 10, 20, and obviously many years before that, because people are saying, no, I'm not going to give you nearly so much of my ownership. You're more of an artist service company to me. I have other ways of reaching out directly.

I'm not kind of completely dependent on you for distribution and things in the way that I would have been. I do think people see that business of having to be global, and I do think that they see that they have to be, with a company that kind of pushes you straight into the US is helpful. Another thing I will say is that I do think so many of these people, these labels have become so sort of their risk of us anyway. If you look at just how much money is now being spent on buying catalogs,

this is like some, you know, just buying things. They just regard them as they're, it's a form of venture capital. They all feel like am I now, I went into music and I'm now sort of in venture capital. That's where so much capital is flowing into in the music industry might have been, in the old days, you would hope we've been on new deals that might discover new things. About 20 billion has gone into buying these back catalogs really recently. Warner's and Bain did a JV, a joint venture, and I think they put a billion immediately into buying things,

and we've got the red hot chili peppers, things like that. So much of it is this back catalog kind of private equity-driven stuff where it's just an asset and it's just going to give you a steady income and it's not about discovery. It's a form of being stuck in the past. Yeah, and you talk to it, again, anyone in the industry, and they all say that they'll say so much of our job now if you are Sony or if you're Universal or if your Warner's is back catalog. Yeah. You know, I mean, that's what it is because we have the canon of music that will sell forever, you know, your queens, your Beatles, stuff like that.

And it is enormously profitable, but it is not the industry that almost all of those people signed up for. They did not sign up for an industry where everything is either, A, something that you heard on TikTok this morning, or be something that was released in 1976, which is where all the money now is coming from in the UK music business, because that's where all the money is coming from in the US music business. And those two things have become the same thing. So the two ways to become a really, really big famous artist now are either to be on TikTok or to already be a big famous artist.

Those are you only two weeks in. But it's interesting. So Elliot Grain said to the Wall Street Journal, he said, I'm not doubting any of the human capabilities of these great guys, women and companies. However, they grew up in the fax machine era. And he's absolutely right, by the way, they did absolutely grow up in the fax machine era. But he has to recognize that he's growing up in the TikTok era.

And in 20 years time, TikTok will sound as ridiculous as a fax machine. And however you make money in the next five years, I absolutely get it through TikTok. But there will never, ever, ever be a replacement for going to a small room above a small pub and seeing an act or seeing a band play live, single live who absolutely blow you away. So that industry will still exist. It just won't be this behemoth industry that everyone has grown up with

over the last 30 years. But there'll be some smart young entrepreneur and there are, you know, you can see in the grime scene and stuff like that, the money that people are making through live events, through kind of acts that they've just discovered, through monetizing things in different ways,

that becomes a sort of new version of punk, it becomes a new way of finding music and making music. And the absolute sort of needle-sharp following of profits that TikTok brings and basing everything in America brings is absolutely all well and good and it will make a lot of people a lot of money. But it feels like it leaves a vacuum. And the one thing that creativity loves is a vacuum. And we should say that independent is growing all the time.

And I mean, completely independent. People who are not tied to any labour and stay independent, even the bigger they get and they don't ever have to have an association with a major and they can get bigger and bigger. And there are many, many artists like that who have gone all the way and it's becoming a bigger and bigger share of things. Because people feel they don't need the services that the record company provides or they can piece them together from different places. They don't need one person to manage it all for them. Well, that's the advantage of TikTok and YouTube and things like that is, is, you know, if you have something about you,

there are ways and means that you can get your music heard. We talk about it only because you talk to anyone in the British music industry at the moment. And everyone feels very sad and unhappy that their industry is not what it was. And that's tough when you've been in it for 30 years or something like that. And you're not at the stage where you can start again and think, oh, great, yeah, but this gives me the opportunity to go off by myself and set something up. You know, you're not going to do that when you're, you know, 55 or 60. You're just not.

There's a sadness for a generation. There's an opportunity for a generation. But I do think that singularity where everything is moving to one point, which is a group of people listening to TikTok who are in the orbis of the Kardashians seems to be just infecting every single one of our industries. And Lemblervatnik seems to be at the top of all of it. I mean, fair play to him.

Okay, that was very interesting. But I am also extremely interested, Richard, to hear from you about what might be the number one book this Christmas. Everything's really ramping up now as to what's selling, what's not selling, what's about to sell. So I just wanted to mention a few things that people maybe had not heard of, which I think would make great presents for Christmas, but I'll also predict what I think is going to be Christmas number one, because we've been right the last

couple of years. The entertainment gift guide should be a thing. Shouldn't it just? Yes, okay. Yeah, exactly. Shall we start with autobiography? So autobiographies have had a terrible time of it. Yeah. That was 10 years ago, that's the only thing that sold was autobiographies. They went crazy. You know, Billy Connolly's autobiography, Peter Kay, these were the huge, huge, huge sellers. And now they're, like, none of them are selling an awful lot. But I think there's quite an interesting crop this year. So again, if you know someone who likes any of these people, Kathy Burke has an autobiography out. I mean, that's going to be a good read, right? Bradley Wiggins, if you're minded. I wonder how much we'll hear about what really goes on in cycling there.

Gaza has a new one out. Yes. I've read the serialization. I mean, he's certainly got a story to tell, has he not. Several stories. Anthony Hopkins has got one out. That feels like the thing that 10 years ago would have sold like a million copies. Nowadays, honestly, there's something. about the autobiography market, there's collapsed, which may be that everyone shares everything about themselves on Instagram constantly. There's no kind of magic to anything anymore. Yes, although I don't think of someone like Anthony Hopkins as that type of person. If I found him, you know, for his whole career, he's been so inscrutable in so many ways. But perhaps just the general idea of sharing has just made people feel they have it all the time

anyway. Ben Elton has one out. Freddie Flintsoff has Chris McCausland. Yeah. The comedian has one out. Mark Ronson, Nightpe. That's a really good autobiography. The autobiography, I think, might sell best, is Susie Wolfe, the racing driver and F1 exec and all that stuff.

She's got a book called Driven, which is pretty much what every single book ever written by anyone who's worked in, F1 is called. But it works as a title. F1 and things like that said incredibly well. Guy Martin, who does all the kind of motorbike shows and stunt shows on Channel 4, his autobiographies always sell like absolute crazy. And you can see publishers going, wait a minute, we published a book by a Hollywood actor, and it's setting a tenth of this book by a guy who just drives a motorcycle. Does he? Does he just do that? It's an incredibly engaged.

It's an incredibly engaged. And when you want to gift something, of course, something that's in the world that you understand that you love is an incredibly great gift. So I think Susie Wolfe might be the biggest seller there. In terms of the nonfiction, Jamie Oliver is absolutely back, back, back. So he's at a few years where he's sold fewer copies. And for whatever reason, often his marketing department's got better. His book, Eat Yourself Healthy is his biggest selling book for a really, really long time. And that's absolutely in the running for Christmas number one.

Mel Robbins, the self-help guru, who does the let them theory. And Mel Robbins has sold probably more books around the world than anybody. So she might be a Christmas number one. Bear Grills has done the story of Jesus, the greatest story ever told, eyewitness accounts of the story of Jesus, essentially told by other people from the Bible. Listen, it's got great reviews. I had a little look through.

I thought, yeah, but it's got a lot of five-star reviews. But what about the one-star reviews? I thought, I'll have a look at some of those. The only two I could find. One was, really loved this book, but it was delivered to the wrong address. That was a one-starer. Okay.

And this book is terrific, but the font is very small. So Bear Gwills... Is that a bit when he goes off into the wilderness, but actually Bear Gwills is actually there with him for 40 days? Oh, that's great. And they're filming it for Netflix. Yeah. Virginia Goufrey, Nobody's Guard, is out this week.

And that is going to be a huge bestseller as well. Books that I think people would love to give us gifts as well. And we talked before about The Map Men on YouTube, who are Mark Cooper Jones and Jay Foreman. And they have got a book called This Way Up, which is the world's worst maps, but essentially telling the story of the world via maps. And they are so brilliant.

In fact, there's a quote on the front of it from the podcast, because we were so nice about them. they said, could they use it? And they said, yeah, of course they could. But that for any teen, anyone who's interested in the world, that's an unbelievably great gift. It's called This Way Up. And I think that is going to be a surprise bestseller this Christmas as well. I think Susie Wolf is going to take people by surprise. I think this way up is going to take people by surprise as well. John Ellage has written a book called History of the World in 47 Borders. I love this book. I love John Ellage and I love the way he looks at the world. And this is, again,

all these kind of disputed borders, all sorts of different things. It's broken down into sections and you can do one at a time and you'll just know something about a bit of the world that you didn't understand before. That's a terrific one. And he's a funny writer as well. So he writes it in a very entertaining way, so it's not stodgy at all. So that's almost like the grown-up version of this way up. But both of those books, I think it would be absolutely incredible presence.

For anyone who's interested in the world at all, which is sort of all of us, I would say. In terms of novels, Dan Brown's The Secrets, is not going to be the Christmas time while. I absolutely guarantee that, which is sold very well, but it's not in the way that Dan Brown used to sell. Once I'd recommend, Anne Cleves has a new Shetland book out, New Jimmy Perez book, Killingstones, and everything that Anne Cleves writes is incredible. Mick Heron's Clown Town, if you love Slow Horses, his new book is terrific as well. William Boyd has a new book out, Bob Mortimer, Martina Cole, has a new one out, no regret. Her book is called.

But Christmas number one, what is going to be Christmas number one? Guinness Book of Records, always in the fight. In fact, it was Christmas number one last year. So that's a possibility. Other possibilities for Christmas number one. Board of Lunch, Nathan Anthony, who's one of these food bloggers, whose books sell like absolute billi-o,

and he's coming out for the Christmas market this year. Often those books come out in January. He's coming out for the Christmas market. That absolutely has a shot. And Clarkson is bringing out to another diddley squat and bringing out quite close to Christmas, which is the coward's way of bringing out a book. Because, you know, it gives you much.

more chance of being Christmas number one. If he had any guts at all, Clarkson needed to bought that out. Any guts at all. Yeah. If he was any sort of a man, he's coming out late in an attempt to steal that away. So they might do it, but this is the book I think will be Christmas number one. I think Christmas number one this year, you know the boy, the mole, the fox and the horse. Charlie Mackenzie, which came out a few years ago was an absolute phenomenon. And also, because it's got the boy, the mole, the fox and the horse, it's also, I always think of the question on Only Connect when a list of four things comes up because you just think of them going,

oh my God, thank you so much. This is like a perfect question for us. But he has a new book out, which is the same characters. That's a clever idea. And it's called Always Remember. And I think that that will be our Christmas number one. He's the biggest selling author of recent years,

but the second biggest, sorry, I should say, because the biggest is you. I know, but I think Christmas number one might be. I don't know. I think I hope it will be the biggest. But I want to talk about it. I'd like to be the biggest selling book. But just in that Christmas week, in that very, very, very final week.

But in recent years. Which is the big one. Overall, is he? But I hope, listen, I hope to sell more than him because I always hope to sell more than everybody. Yes, I know you do. Despite how I present myself, I'm very alpha. And, you know, so I like. Oh my God, wait, you care about ratings?

Yeah. Why, you waited a long time in this podcast to make me think of that. I know. I know. I know. But listen, I'm very happy with everyone. Thank you so much for everyone who's bought and talked to me about the impossible fortune as well. Because that's been a lot of fun.

And I like being in the game. Yeah. I like that. I liked the year I beat Barack Obama for Christmas number one. Absolutely. That was a lot of fun. Listen, it doesn't matter what I think about what I'm going to do. I am going to go for, we got Mirdle right, we've got Guinness Book of Records right.

I'm going to go for three out of three with Charlie McAseys, always remember, as Christmas number one. But I would really, really recommend this way up and history of the world in 47 borders if you're looking for a Christmas present. Me too. I won't do any recommendations. week because I feel like I've just done some. He's done one or two there. Yes, exactly. But do you have any?

I do. I have TV. I am absolutely loving Riot Woman. Sally Wayne Wright's BBC drama. It's amazing. After 15 minutes, you kind of love all the characters. She is incredible. I mean, she obviously, the cast is incredible.

Joe Scanlon, Lorraine Ashburn, Amelia Bill Moore, Tams and Greig. Yeah. Oh my God, Rosalie Craig. She must have punched the air when she got that role. Jesus. I mean, it's amazing. I absolutely love Sally Wainwright. I love the show on the BBC on Sky Comedy, The Chair Company.

Oh, I haven't watched it yet. I'm so excited. I love Tim Robinson so much. He's amazing. And I think there's only just two episodes out now. And it's like they're dripping out once a week. I can only say that a minor workplace accident occurs. A journey into the heart of a conspiracy begins.

But it's so unique. He's so unique. If you haven't seen, I think you should leave, which is this sketch show. Watch five minutes of that. If it is not for you, you can leave it alone. If it is for you, if you suddenly go, oh, wow, that's interesting because I sort of felt like I'd seen every type of comedy there was.

And this is slightly different. And someone's just opened a door to something completely different. And if it appeals to you, then you have a lot of fun things to catch up on. But I'm very excited to watch the chair company. Oh, my gosh. It's good. I'm excited to talk to you about it. Okay, that's about us.

We will be back on Thursday with a Q&A edition with Ben Elton. With your questions, we'll be asking your questions to Ben. Your questions, to Ben Alton. That is whole career. And we will be doing a special celebrity traitors episode, which will come out moments after the completion of Thursday's episode. So excited. It's two episodes this week, Wednesday and Thursday. It will come moments after the completion of Thursdays.

Hugely excited. We love this part of our job. Oh, my God. It's literally the best. It is the best. I cannot wait for those two episodes. But in the meantime, thanks, everyone. And we'll see you on Thursday.

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