The Rest Is Entertainment - The Future Of Doctor Who

Episode Date: November 6, 2025

Why did Disney's Dr Who deal with the BBC fall through? What is a worldwide bestseller? Can you get rich off picture books? Richard Osman and Marina Hyde answer your questions on the world of television, publishing and the music industry. Join The Rest Is Entertainment Club: Unlock the full experience of the show – with exclusive bonus content, ad-free listening, early access to Q&A episodes, access to our newsletter archive, discounted book prices with our partners at Coles Books, early ticket access to live events, and access to our chat community. Sign up directly at therestisentertainment.com The Rest Is Entertainment is proudly presented by Sky. Sky is home to award-winning shows such as The White Lotus, Gangs of London and The Last of Us. Requires relevant Sky TV and third party subscription(s). Broadband recommended min speed: 30 mbps. 18+. UK, CI, IoM only. To find out more and for full terms and conditions please visit Sky.com For more Goalhanger Podcasts, head to www.goalhanger.com Video Editor: Max Archer & Adam Thornton Senior Producer: Joey McCarthy Social Producer: Bex Tyrrell Exec Producer: Neil Fearn Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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I'm Marina Hyde. And I'm Richard Osmond. Thank you for all your questions, everybody. Shall we get straight on or should we... We've got some sort of any other business, really, because after our advert, my hymn to various adverts last week, Caroline has written in and she says, Dear Marina and Richard, it was so lovely to hear you refer to the boy on the bike, Hovis advert in your latest podcast. My wonderful dad, Alan Hepburn, was the advertising manager at Hovis in 1973 and was part

of the team that produced this iconic ad. In fact, he always said that he and my mum sat by the music centre with loads of classical music alps and came up with the idea of using Voszac, which CDP agreed with. That's the advertising agency. He is now 91 and currently in hospital with a rather nasty infection.

I'm going to see him later and will play the podcast to him. Hopefully it will cheer him up. Oh, Caroline, that is so lovely. I mean, it is, by the way, it's not just one of my favourite. I think it's routinely voted the nation's favour ever. goes down in history. Nostalgia for a time that they were never really past. It's everything.

So it's iconic in all sense the word and directed by Ridley Scott. Yeah. And Caroline, if you play this to your dad as well, Alan, get well soon. And thank you for doing something that most people will never do. A lovely thing to have made such an impression. But get well soon, my friend. Shall I ask you a question? Please do.

And there's a question, we've had lots of versions of this question. But Rob McGoff, you're our first out of the trap. So I'm going to do your version of it. Rob asked Disney have ended their much-criticised co-production deal with the BBC to make Doctor Who. Will Disney consider the whole ordeal a mistake? Okay. Clearly Disney have ended the deal, so they certainly consider it something they want to get out of. It's strange because it sort of happened quite late. It happened almost after the era of what we remember now,

the lovely co-production money era where basically streamers were trying to, and we're trying to sort of build scale and get a hold on various markets. And so lots of things were co-production and lots of very expensive things and lots of, you know, this was the peak TV era. But people were, you know, losing money, huge amounts of money, but they wanted to build scale. So someone like Netflix was just spending enormous, unsustainable amounts of money trying to do these things. So we had all these shows. This actually came later than that. They didn't even put out a statement, Disney, saying that, you know, it was a, the statement came from the BBC saying that this was a, they had been a great partner and so on.

I mean, clearly they're disappointed. I don't know if they've been a great partner. No. Listen, I'm sure they've been, you know, they're no David Harbour, but I don't know if they've been great. Obviously, they put it on Disney Plus and what they, it's quite tricky. We know what it is because it's very sort of idiosyncocratically British. It's a sort of tea time family drama thing that's sci-fi as well. To them it might have been like, well, is it Y.A.

Is it like, or is it, you know, is it like Percy Jackson, which has done a show that's done in that kind of space? Yeah, where's it's done much better for Disney. them and, you know, is on a second season and all of that. Certainly, I'm never sure they quite answered it. They certainly didn't promote it in lots of ways like their native shows, as it were. And also, by the way, because Russell T. Davis was such a big part of that deal and is such a big part of Doctor Who, he was, I think they accepted that he was going to have creative control of what it looked like.

So Disney executives were not able to say, I wonder if we can make this a bit more Disney, which, of course, was the thing everyone was terrified about. And a bit more categorisable for them in their, you know, much more. more set categories and he is idiosyncratic and a maverick and all those sort of things. He's obviously brilliant and amazing and we love him. And so I think in some ways, I mean, as I say, what they want is they want there to be awards and nominations and it didn't have those apart from, you know, there might have been a technical award or something.

But I've seen different estimates on the episode cost and I think there's kind of north end of them where people were saying that it's 10 million pounds an episode. Russell T. Davis was like, oh my God, I would literally be talking to. my moon base, if that was the case. Having said that, it massively, and by multiples, increased what the budget was before on the BBC. Whether you need that or not, there'll always be people saying,

oh, we like cardboard sets and just great stories. I personally, and this is nothing from anyone on the show, but I think they had a problem with the casting of the lead character. I think Shuti Gatwa, I am told he didn't particularly love doing it, and it's not for everyone that role. And you are so much more than the lead. in a particular drama. When it came back, and under Russell T. Davis,

and there was Christopher Erickleston, he did it for one season, and it clearly wasn't for him either. David Tennant, revolution, you know, brought it, but he grew up... It's fair to say it was for him. Yeah, it was for him, but he was a doctor who obsessive, so was Peter Capaldi, who came next but one. And they fully understood what the nature of that role is. You're not just the lead in that thing.

You are an ambassador. You do all sorts of other things, and it all feeds back. But it's a really, you know, it sort of occupies a role in the... life of the nation to some degree. Matt Smith, who was so young, who is absolutely one of the most amazing doctor who is of all time. I think he's one of the most amazing doctors of all time. I think he's incredible.

And it's extraordinary that he played it with such sensitivity and he was both old and young at the same time. He did it amazingly. But he also understood that you're a former ambassador. I didn't get that at all from Shuti Gatwa at all. I think he had other projects. He wasn't that committed to that thing. I definitely think that the Americans thought

that he wasn't necessarily 100% available there to be a kind of... He's definitely in demand for obvious reasons. Yeah, and he's done lots of different things and he's done theatre, he's done two plays and whatever in the time of all of that. He said, I'm getting old, I'm 33. Okay.

As I say, it's a failure to call someone who fully understood the full implications and weight and responsibilities of the role. And also, actually, I think if you are the lead in a big American TV show and this purpose is both. There are certain things that might be expected of your time

and perhaps that didn't occur. And it's absolutely a deal that made sense for the BBC and made sense for Disney. You do all sorts of collaborations in this business and a lot of the times they don't come off for lots and lots of reasons.

But you have to look back and go, was this a mistake? I don't think it was. I think that Russell T. Davis felt that he would have the same creative control he would have elsewhere, but with more money. And I think Disney were thinking, we've got this piece of IP, this franchise, that if we can just get a bit of traction on this, this can serve us for the next 10 years

because we can have lots and lots of spin-offs. We can build a whole universe around Doctor Who, this thing that we feel has been undervalued and there are lots of places. And they were already starting to do that. There's this spin-off, the war between the land and the sea and things like that. So they are coming. Yeah. But so it absolutely made sense for both sides.

sometimes for whatever reason it just doesn't work and sometimes personnel change in organisations and sometimes cultural change I have to say I'm afraid in contemporary America and contemporary Disney where they're thinking oh we've corrected too closely towards what I mean for one of a better

phrase a woke agenda they're now moving away from that and back to some form of what they consider to be returning to some form of mainstream again I don't you know I I can tell you what those sort of thoughts are. And Russell T. Davis is an enemy of all of that, and he'll do whatever he wants.

He's not going to compromise. But the reason that Disney signed up is the same reason that lots of other people will sign up as well. Because it does feel like it's an underutilized piece of IP. If I can just talk about the magic of show business for a moment. You know, it feels like you could really create a huge world out of this. And there are plenty of big media companies with very deep pocket. at the moment, content companies at least, that, you know, somebody else, it would be worth their while to put some money into this. And BBC are very good now at doing deals with other

people, you know, whether it's an all-encompassing umbrella like Disney, which comes with certain expectations, as you say, and where there has, suddenly there is a corporate thing that is bigger than, you know, Disney is one of the few corporate things that is bigger than the BBC. Yeah. But it's such a great franchise. And you could see a way through this, that Doctor Who lives forever on a different streamer. So yeah, I think, you know what, wrong place, wrong time, right idea. Okay, Richard, one for you from Jamie, who says, I'm on holiday in Turkey. It's lovely. Thank you for asking. And I saw someone reading a book with the worldwide bestselling author on the front cover.

It made me think, what do you need to do to be classed as a worldwide bestselling author? Does shifting a few copies in Latvia and Chad make you worldwide, for instance? It is a very specific thing, actually, if you know, if you want to call yourself, so there's lots of different things we'll see in the front cover of a book. Times bestseller. You might see now that means it has to be in the top 10 of the Sunday Times. It only needs to be there for a week and it only needs to be on one of their chart. So if they have the hardback fiction, paperback fiction, hardback nonfiction, paperback nonfiction. If you're in any of those top tens, you are a Sunday Times bestseller. You will then sometimes see number one Sunday Times bestseller. That is self-explanatory. That means that it was number one.

I remember in week two of Thursday Wonder Club when that came out, it went to, I think went to number two in Ireland, because Graham Norton is always number one in Ireland. So after the first week, we called it Sunday, number one Sunday times bestseller. From the second week, because it had been the top ten in Ireland, where you're allowed to call it an international bestseller. Essentially, it means if it's in two territories, you're in the official. Two countries. That's a trend. Yeah, that is a trend. Worldwide bestseller, I think, is not an official thing. But you would not be able to do that if you had not been.

in more than two charts around the world. The Latvrier and Chad question is interesting because if you, they would not be the first territory that you had sold to if you weren't already an international bestseller. Yes. So if you sell in the UK and you sell in America and you set in Germany or Italy, the big, big, big markets, that's when all the other markets come along. How does it go just out of interest?

It goes UK. It would go, well, the first place we sold Thursday, America was Germany. Weirdly, it's the first deal we signed. before we'd even sign the UK deal, just because the UK deal took slightly longer for lots of reasons. So Germany was the first country to buy Thirsty Murder Club, which is lovely for me, because they had no idea what point in this was. They just like the book. It would normally go UK, and sometimes you would do a UK.

Well, UK and UK is often UK and Commonwealth. Yes. So if you sell to the UK, your publisher will also then have the rights in Canada, South Africa, all the Commonwealth territories, essentially. It's not always the case. Mine are carved out, so I have different deals in different territories. I bet you do. But that would be the normal thing. You would often on submission, which is when you send a book to different publishers,

you would send it on submission to the US and the UK at the same time. Because there's lots and lots of links between those territories. So UK, US, Germany, because it's the next biggest market. And then, you know, you have your Italy's. Yeah, I was going to say. France is always tricky. France is the place. That's the place I don't sell.

They're tricky, are they? But some people sell millions in France. And I just, I go over there. And if I was like, no, this book we don't like. And you're like, come on, guys. So Italy, those big European countries. And then all the Eastern European countries will come in. South America then comes in.

And then if you're out in, you know, Japan, China, that would tend to be, you know, maybe six months later when they've seen sales figures from other places. But yeah, so you cannot agree yourself a bestseller. if you haven't been in that top 10. You cannot call yourself an international bestseller if you haven't been in two top 10s. So now we can win like New York Times best seller, which is another lovely thing to be.

But yeah, you can't fake any of those things at all. So it always means something specific. Worldwide, I assume, is the same as international. I assume it would be a, you know, a thing. But yeah, you can't do it unless you've been in two top tens and you can't be an international number one best setter if you haven't been number one in two territories. So it's very, very, very specific

and people are getting an awful lot of trouble if they put something on there that they couldn't then back up. Who do you get in trouble with? Who are the book police? That is such a good question. I imagine that, yeah, the Publishers Association. I don't know.

Wow. There are the sort of big publishers and if one of the publishers broke rank, they wouldn't be invited to parties anymore. I think is how it works. In that line of work, is Hiaoj. It's Hjouj. Yeah, really.

is. Thank you, Jamie. Marina, Gary Powell has a question for you. Hi, Gary, on vinyl sales. It's a simple question, keeps it tight. Who is making money from the resurgence in the popularity of vinyl? Well, keeping my answer tight, at least at the start, Gary, I would say record companies and artists. You are completely right that it's climbing as a share of revenue for the UK recorded music industry, which I think, which was worth, I've written this down. It is, last year was worth 1.49 billion and vinyl accounted for 145 million so it's a lot if you add in CDs to that so physical copies of music it's 246 million so um you wouldn't say no to it no i mean it's it's and in the u.s it's even bigger it's a it's a much higher margin per unit obviously um with a physical copy of music

than it is for any sort of stream as you can see there are certain people who really have driven it Someone like Taylor Swift, who is, you know, there's so many different editions, physical editions of Life of a Showgirl. I was saying to you earlier, my daughter asked for one of them. She asked for the, you know, the record. And I was like, do you know what this is? I mean, you don't have anything to play this on. I mean, what? And she's like, no, I just, you know, wanted.

It's a collectible. And people, in an era when people have grown up sort of renting everything, you know, people used to sort of treasure their copies of movies and things like that. Everything is rented. Everything is streamed. It's strangely, people have come back to it. And it's also, obviously, music retailers, as in actual stores, bricks and mortar stores, they're seeing more football. And it's, there's more of it.

And obviously, vinyl pressing plants, all of those sorts of things. But in general, you make so much more money, obviously, from a physical copy of anything. It's a proper old school thing, which is that there is a margin in it. But they're trying to make it new schooling. You see someone like Taylor Swift, who really doesn't have need of doing this, has put so many of the latest album, there's so many different physical editions you can have. Record companies and artists, and every artist nowadays, in the old days, as we've talked about before, would have had some sort of blanket deal on what they took, and now everyone's got

these individual contracts because otherwise sometimes they don't even need to be with a record company. I mean, it's almost like merch these days, a vinyl album, you know, but it's like a t-shirt. Yes. But you're, I think we need to get a record player. Not you and me. Yeah. But I was talking about it the other day.

It was saying, well, you get a record player, because it's nice. just nice. Yeah. Something nice about putting, you know, the needle down and... I was trying to explain it to my daughter and thinking, yeah, you know, it would be really nice to be just doing that. Yeah, I know what you mean. And obviously, lots of other people are having these sort of thoughts. So, anyway, that is the relatively brief answer to that question, Gary. I would sell an album for cost price, but I would then do a cheaper version which had adverts in between each track. It'd be fun. You'll just do your own deal for definite. Always do your own deal. Always thinking. Always thinking.

Shall we go to a break now? Yeah, let's do, yes. Shall we go to an album, right, yes. This episode is brought to you by Sky, and Sky's new original film, Nuremberg, in cinemas Friday the 14th of November. Now, the trials in Nuremberg weren't just a courtroom drama, they're also the story of how Allied forces

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A story of taking phenomenal risks in the pursuit of truth and justice. Watch Sky Original Nuremberg, only in cinemas Friday the 14th of November. Welcome back, everybody. This is a question from the entire Stuart family for you, Richard. As in the Tudors and the Stuarts. Yeah. Actually, the different spelling, but I feel that they are their own dynasty, and yes, I'm treating them as such in the asking of this question.

Can you please help me with an answer for our inquisitive six-year-olds? Yes, that might be our youngest questioner yet. Yes. What's the process for the author and illustrator working together in a children's illustrated book? Is it words, then pictures, or more of a collaboration done in stages? Also, how do illustrators get paid for this type of work? Is it a one-off fee or royalty-based or a combination? Thank you very much for that question. What a good question from a six-year-old.

Everyone else has got their six-year-olds in the back of the car, just going, why do you ask a question like that? Then we can be on the podcast. Genuinely, it changes from book to book. So if you are a writer with a great children's story, then often a publisher will put you with an illustrator, or when you spend a lot of time in children's publishing, you kind of know illustrators.

And so, you know, if you get the combination of Julia Donaldson and Axel Sheffler, who, you know, are the best-selling authors pretty much in the whole world. You know, they've worked together forever and ever and ever. Sometimes people will do both themselves. You take someone like Nadia Shereen, who's one of our great children's book writers. She does the illustration and she does the words. And so she doesn't have to worry about what comes first. But I asked Nadia Shereen, genuinely, if you've not read her books, she is, I think, our finest children's author.

And she's, this is the definitive answer. from the definitive author. She said, what often happens is that an author will write a story and submit it to a publisher. The author may have someone in mind they would like to illustrate it, but it is the publisher who makes the pairing. The publishers will probably show the story to different illustrators and see who's the right fit and also whose schedules match up. If you're an illustrator who already has an impressive portfolio, then publishers will search

around, they'll do it the other way around, for a suitable text as they will be keen to use you. And this is where having an agent is useful to as they will be able to share your work with as many publishers as possible. So if you're a writer, they'll look for an illustrator. If you're a great illustrator, they'll look for a writer. The author and illustrator will typically both be paid in advance. And if the book sells loads of copies, they may start to get royalties after they've earned

out that advance. If the book doesn't sell loads of copies, the author and illustrator will get to keep their advance anyway. All different groups of people work very, very differently. So Axel Sheffler, for example, Julia Donaldson, some of the first books she did were based on things that she had already written. So songs she had written. So Axel will take a look at that.

do the drawing, send them to Julia. She would send something back, say, oh, I'm not sure about this, I'm not sure about that. Like Elton John and Bernie Taupin, if her a reference that your six-year-old will understand. Did she ever once ring down to a hotel front desk, like Alton didn't ask if they could make the wind stop blowing? Julia Donaldson? I genuinely doubt it. Although that's a good name for a book. Could you make the wind stop blowing? He's hilarious about it, by the way. Very, very funny. He is of over-indargence.

as I say, six-year-old answering the question. Julia Donaldson is one of the nicest people you'll ever meet. In fact, almost all children's authors are the nicest people you're meeting in the whole world. I went to a reception recently and Julia Donaldson was there. Chris Riddell was there. Chris had a cowl, he does How to Train Your Dragon. She was there. I mean, Chris Riddell's books are so beautiful.

Yes. And again, he will often do both or sometimes he'll work to other people's things. The big gossip there was, as I said, talk to me about this celebrity's doing. kids, boats, come on. I said, who do you not mind? Who do you not mind doing this? And the name they all came up with, all that these are, the, uh, and Nadia Shereen was there, so like also all the greatest of our children's authors and illustrators. I said, who do, who do not mind? And the person who got full marks from everyone, Dermot O'Leary. That's lovely to know. They said, no, we love Dermott. I thought that's nice. Everyone loves Dermot. I love Dermott. Yeah, yeah, exactly.

So Axel Sheffler is, you know, is on a back end for the book. So that's how he gets paid. So he'll get his money up front. Isn't the same with it. Julia, will they're a team, and he will also get money at every book you sell. There are illustrators for hire, so, you know, someone has written a book in this celebrity world as well, and someone will just get paid for doing the drawings. And that would be what you call a buyout, which means you get a certain amount of money, that money will, that's all the money that you're going to get. But the loveliest books, always look into if you're buying books, does someone do it all

themselves, or if there's an author and an illustrator, you can find out if they work together. You can find out if they like each other. You can find out if they've done stuff before. If there's a book that doesn't tell you, for example, who did the illustration, I mean, come on. Shame on that book. Yeah, yeah, exactly. It's all different things for all different people. But, you know, the great, the really, really great, well, either people who do it by themselves or the great teams like Julia and Axel, it is just an absolute combination of just two people who are in sync with each other who know what each other need and what each other want.

Lots of little technical things like. But you absorb each, you have a sort of, you have a sort of, you. develop a combined aesthetic that has come from working in concert for so long. Yeah, exactly that. Lots of little technical things like if, you know, how big does a speech bubble need to be or, you know, the speech at the bottom and things like that. But that all gets worked out in the process. But yeah, so with Julia Donaldson, it'll usually be text and then Axel will work around it.

Sometimes it'll be different to that, but lots of, lots of different ways of doing it. But it's lovely if someone does it all themselves or if you have a team like Julia and Axel, who you know just adore each other and work completely in tandem. And, you know, the real takeaway is that they all have done it. Marina, a question for you from Gina Walsh. Gina asks, do writers care about online fan theories? What happens when a fan theory is better than the actual plot? Okay, fan theories is the practice of people having theories

about how a show is going to pan out story-wise. And obviously, with things within, sometimes it'll just be, you know, a limited series drama and people will think, you know, I think Hugh Grant did it, I think Nicole given it, or whatever it is, and I think there was this Easter egg in episode one or whatever it is. So while something's kind of on air. While it's on air. But in the shows that

run for many seasons, several seasons, I mean, you know, we live in a, you know, the first big one of this in the modern era was something like Lost, where people were saying, okay, what's happening, is the island moving, is you know, what is to explain all these things that I'm seeing on screen? And it became a sort of, and that also took off

in a time where people were using the internet more than they'd ever had done. and so people develop theories about what's going on in shows, but it's become completely, you know, there are subredits, there's everything devoted to this, and there's just ordinary social media, people talking in real time and what's going to happen in shows. And they're very proprietorial about them, fans.

It can be quite difficult for writers. A lot of writers say, you know, some of the biggest shows of our age are sort of teeming with fan theories, severance, yellow jackets, things like that. People try to say, I know what happens, or I know what's going to have. And writers, it's difficult because they do talk a lot about, even in writers' rooms, people talk about, oh, yeah, they'll be screenshotsing this particular frame because they know that fans will, like, literally pause it and then look around and think. And they notice everything. I mean, I remember when I was being, you know, taught literature as a teenager and you'd be doing a novel and you'd be saying, and this symbolizes this. And you'd be like, yeah, but did they actually think about all of this when they're writing? Now, the answer, in.

And certainly in modern television, which is quite close to the novelist, it full. Yes, they have thought about all these things. Now, the big thing is that do you get swayed? They all say, any writer will tell you, don't get sweat. Don't, first of all, stay away from them and don't read the fan theories because it will get in your head. Don't be swayed by them. If it comes out that people have guessed, a lot of these shows do have big denoumos and big explanations. And, you know, what has actually happened in yellow.

Jackets, which is about a plane crash that happened. Yellow Jackets is interesting. There are lots and lots of mysteries. It has a 90s timeline, and it has a current timeline when the girls who are in this kind of plane crash are much older. And so there are lots of mysteries to uncover in all of those. And the showrunners have said, yes, who are a married couple, Ashley Lyle and Bart Nixon, and they've said they will reveal, you know, everything will be tied up.

And it's very possible that lots of fans have guessed some of those things. Other people say... If a thousand people try and guess the end. I mean, someone's going to get it, right? And a lot of people say, oh, well, then in that case, they should change it to keep it fresh. It's like, you can't upend an entire sort of creative universe and a meticulously plod narrative arc and all of these sort of things that you spend absolutely beyond months of, you know, years on. And also, by the way, you are leading people to, you are deliberately leading people to something. Yes, you just can't do that.

And just because a couple of people have been led towards it, you're like. It's going to not make sense and it's actually going to be. worse. And also, don't forget, although there are some extremely online people, and it is a big, big thing fan theories, and it is a huge part of it for lots of people. But it's not the majority of people watching the joke. Almost everyone is not. Almost everyone, as you always say, is not doing this thing. So definitely don't change it, but it is difficult. And it used to be that writers were really resentful about this sort of thing. And it slightly reminds me of newspapers in that in the old days, used to write an article and you handed it down like a stone tablet, just

like a TV show and people took it and they accepted it and you never knew what they were really thinking. And then in the era when you could see all their feedback, people say, well, I think you're wrong about this. You'd think, well, I'm so sorry, but I was the writer of this article. I mean, grow up, okay? Feedback's fine and it's just, everything has changed. The relationship is very different. We no longer live in a stone tablet era. And actually, whilst it was painful for a lot of TV writers at the start to see all this stuff online and think, no, we're the ones, you know, we're the gods who are making these things happen. actually what they've come to realize, it is an intensely amazing marketing tool.

It means that fans are totally engaged with your show. They're talking about it all the time in real time. Sometimes, you know, they're freeze framing frames to look and see what the picture, you know, the mounted photograph in the background who's in that, you know, they are obsessively interested and engaged with your show. They are taking you seriously. Do you like that? Yeah, do you like it?

And they are promoting your show in a completely organic way that is not dependent on taking out advertising and billboards and all those old things. it's a form of love, okay? And it may feel tough at times, but it's a form of love. So actually, I think almost all writers would kind of be annoyed in the moment about certain fan theories if it either reveal what they are doing or just felt like people were just getting it all wrong,

but in general are grateful for them and they exist as a fact of our world now. It reminds me a tiny bit of whenever you were in writer's rooms for things like, have I gotten news for you and when Twitter came along. So, you know, you're the first responders when you're in that, Have I gotten used to you writers, or more than news quiz or something on Radio 4?

And so, you know, you're the first people who are going to do the gags, and on the Friday night, the gags go out. And then when Twitter came along, you're like, oh, everyone can do a gag immediately. And again, it's sort of, I mean, people didn't really look at them, but it raised people's games a bit. And it was, it's... Yeah, I agree, definitely on that show. It certainly changed the rules.

And you saw that they put some of the gags out on Twitter during the week to build, you know, socials for, have I got news for you? So you've... We all live in this world. And I think it's all, it's all helped. And how can you care about people caring about your show? Yeah. I think that's just done.

I think it is. Yeah. So we're going to see each other later for our live finale streaming. Live and unleashed. Live and unleashed. Maybe not unleashed, but certainly live. Yeah, our reaction to the final of traitors. Yes.

1015 on YouTube. We will tweet out the live stream link or it will be emailed to our members. And then we also, no, hang on. Tomorrow we've got a bonus episode for members. We have indeed. You can join at the rest is entertainment.com and get ad-free listening and so on. And this is going to be a series on the story of MTV,

which is an incredible story. I'm sadly coming to an end now. Anyway. So hopefully everyone, we will see you this evening for our live traitors finale. If not, we will see members tomorrow. And if not, we'll see you next Tuesday. See you next Tuesday.

This episode was brought to you by our good friends at Sky. The Sky Glass TV is a television that insists on dressing for the occasion, transforming your living room from background noise into a set piece premiere worthy of Sky Atlantic. As the nights get longer, it's the perfect time to settle in for a movie night with quality entertainment on Sky. Just say the name of your favourite film into your Sky remote, like Wicked, and let the magic unfold right in your living room. And the built-in Dolby Atmos doesn't just play sound, it performs it. Think blockbuster sound without leaving the sofa.

It's cinematic quality in your own home with the Skyglass auto-adjust feature. And not sure what to watch, well Sky's curated recommendation will find something for everyone. Let's scroll or more story and the perfect way to make the most of those longer evenings. For more information, visit Sky.com. Requires relevant SkyTV subscriptions, broadband recommended minimum speed, 30 megabits per second, 18 plus UK, Channel Islands and Island. only. Hello, I'm David Ullushogam. And I'm Sarah Churchwell. This week on journey through time, we are exploring the story of the gunpowder plot of 1605, the story of how a small group of Catholics

engaged in what would have been the most devastating terrorist attack in all of British history. The plan was ruthless, blow up Parliament, King James I and most of his family, all in a single blow. The series will tell the story of treason and traitors, of a group of men led by the charismatic Robert Catesby, who believed that the only option left to them to win their rights as Catholics with the violent destruction of the Stewart State. We look at the story of Guy Fawkes, the nation's most famous traitor, from his recruitment to becoming the plot's fall guy, and ultimately being tortured and killed. Finally, we found out why this plot is still remembered now 400 years later. Listen to Journey Through Time wherever you get your podcasts.

Thank you.