The Rest Is Entertainment - The Liam Neeson and Pamela Anderson Love Story

Episode Date: August 4, 2025

Are Liam Neeson and Pamela Anderson made for one another? Is Jenna Ortega Gen-Z's biggest star? Why did the BBC's Destination X miss the mark? It's the love story that no-one saw coming, aging action star Liam Neeson and Pamela Anderson are officially dating. Are the pair the ultimate Hollywood odd couple? British broadcasters are desperately seeking a new format hit to rival The Traitors. Richard reviews the most recent crop of big-budget reality gameshows to see if any will succeed. With the return of Netflix's Wednesday just hours away - the pair chat about Jenna Ortega: 22-year-old superstar who has ruffled feathers across the industry. The Rest Is Entertainment AAA Club: Become a member for exclusive bonus content, early access to our Q&A episodes, ad-free listening, access to our exclusive newsletter archive, discount book prices on selected titles with our partners at Coles, early ticket access to future live events, and our members’ chatroom on Discord. Just head to therestisentertainment.com to sign up, or start a free trial today on Apple Podcasts: apple.co/therestisentertainment. The Rest Is Entertainment is proudly presented by Sky. Sky is home to award-winning shows such as The White Lotus, Gangs of London and The Last of Us. Requires relevant Sky TV and third party subscription(s). Broadband recommended min speed: 30 mbps. 18+. UK, CI, IoM only. To find out more and for full terms and conditions please visit Sky.com For more Goalhanger Podcasts, head to www.goalhanger.com Assistant Producer: Aaliyah Akude Video Editor: Kieron Leslie, Charlie Rodwell, Adam Thornton, Harry Swan Producer: Joey McCarthy Senior Producer: Neil Fearn Head of Content: Tom Whiter Exec Producers: Tony Pastor + Jack Davenport Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hello everyone, this episode is brought to you by our good friends at Sky. Now, whether you're dancing through life in the Emerald City for the first time, or flying back for a magical encore, Wicked is now on Sky Cinema, and with the Skyglass TV, Oz feels closer than ever. Bring the gravity-defying ballads home with a Dolby Atmos soundbar built in for a truly cinematic experience. The high notes and the harmonies have never sounded better. Skyglass automatically adapts the picture and sound to whatever you're watching.

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broadband recommended minimum speed 30 megabits per second, 18 plus UK Channel Islands and Allison Janney. A hilarious new comedy filled with drama, excitement and a little bit of hatred proving that marriage isn't always a bed of roses. See The Roses only in theaters August 29th. Get tickets now. Hello and welcome to this episode of The Rest Is Entertainment with me Marina High. And me Richard Osmond. Hi Marina.

Hello Richard, how are you? I'm all right, welcome back to the country. I know, I'm so glad I'm in the studio with you. That makes me very happy. You have a nice tan. Thank you, I begged you not to mention it. And other than that, how's things been in my absence? Big news, very big news.

Listen, we talked on the podcast last year. I think it was over a year ago when I went through all the numbers and we worked out that in the whole of this decade only three bands had had number one singles because like solo artists absolutely dominate the charts and in the whole of the decade it was only Little Mix, the Radio 1 Live Lounge, All Stars and the Beatles were the only actual bands who've had number one singles, but we now have a fourth to join that canon, a fourth, and they are of course Huntrix from K-pop Demon Hunters

very much. The thing everybody is talking about, Golden by Huntrix, is now number one. Listen, I accept they're a cartoon band and I accept the Beatles are no longer going and I accept that Radio 1 Live Lounge All Stars is not a real group as well, so it's still just Little Mix really, but it's nice. Nice to have a band at number one. That movie has done so unbelievably well. It's like more in its sixth week than it was in week one for Netflix,

but they did put it on in theatres for about 15 minutes. So that Golden can be... Oscar winning. An Oscar winning song. You know, if you've got kids since the start of the holidays, plenty of people would have seen K-pop Demon Hunters 40 times. Yeah, some of the bazillions of views are not actually my daughter but only very few I think what are we talking about this week other than history being made in the UK

Stingles Chants well in a heartwarming turn of events we've got good news for once in a darkening world the best news I want to talk about the romance between miss Pamela Anderson and mr. Liam Neeson. I mean, it's funny, whoever you mention it to, everyone just immediately melts. Yeah, it's heaven. And we're going to talk about that. A huge show, Wednesday Returns, on Wednesday, it's got one of those sort of fascinating stars. We're going to talk about who is Jenna Ortega. We sometimes do these sort of bluffers guides, don't we, to the biggest new stars. And she is one of the biggest new stars in the world. So if you don't know her, you will by the end of this podcast, I promise.

I'm also going to take us through the runners and riders. Every single channel is trying to create their own version of the traitors. That's what's happening in British television at the moment. I'm going to go through what each channel is doing and their chances of winning. And we're going to hang that off the back of Destination X, which is the BBC's attempt to follow up the traitors, which started this week. Without further ado, we had Liz Hurley and Billy Ray Cyrus, but the random romance generator has thrown up a quite delectable pairing in the form of the co-stars of the new Naked

Gun movie, which opened this weekend and did pretty well. For a comedy, it did amazingly well. Liam Neeson and Pamela Anderson. The Tom Holland and Zendaya of our generation. I wanna say Liamela. Are people saying Liamela? I haven't seen Liamela, but I think we should start saying it.

I say Pamam. Pamam. Pamam. We'll get into a very deep dive on this in a minute. I thought you would. The moment I heard they were a couple, firstly, I thought good for both of them. I did think I know someone who wants to do a very deep dive on this in a minute. I thought you would. The moment I heard they were they were a couple. Firstly, I thought good for both of them. I did think I know someone who wants to do a very deep dive on that. It's like when Rory Stewart hears this trouble in the Balkans, you know, you think, oh, here we go. It's exactly like that. Because we want to enjoy, I mean,

I don't want to say we want to enjoy trouble in the Balkans. We certainly don't, but we certainly want to enjoy our celebrity romances, don't we? We really, we want there to we want to enjoy trouble in the Balkans. We certainly don't but we certainly want to enjoy our celebrity romances Don't we we really we want there to be a bit of fun in this crappy world and I tell you what else we want We want charm in public life. There is such a distinct absence of charm in public life and truth in public life I like something that seems very real. Oh, yeah, because this is not a show man These two don't really know what show man says. They're not those sort of people. What we want with these romances is it to be so completely shocking that you're like, sorry, what? They're together. But also to be something that within about a week we can say, well, of course it was perfect when we always knew.

As soon as soon as you see them, so you think, oh, yes, of course. Oh, but of course. Well, because actually both have sort of born these awful tragedies or traduces in their personal lives. They have both have got that same sort of slightly, but particularly sorry, because it is such a radical act, Pamela Anderson's decision not to wear makeup. Isn't it amazing how that is seen as a radical act? It's the most radical thing. It shows what's happened to our culture, that it seems shocking that someone allows

itself to age in a normal fashion. Yeah, and that there's like no one. And I mean, there was an interesting interview with Jamie Lee Curtis the other weekend where she was talking about, I mean, she called it a sort of genocide of women. I wouldn't necessarily use that particular term, but she, by the Cosmaceuticalutical industry the cosmeceutical industry cosmeceutical industrial complex she called it okay and actually the Hollywood Reporter I think it's this week have got like a cover story on all the different work the modern work that people are having done can I do a super quick Jamie Lee Curtis side because I think it would be of interest to

listeners apparently she's going to be Jessica Fletcher in a new run of murder she wrote I saw this I knew someone who'd be very, very interested in that. Very interested. Yeah. I mean, she's phenomenal and it's brilliant what's happened. So, yeah, so Lea Miller, both of them had this kind of austere, they've borne these things nobly and life has happened to them and it's kind of written on their faces, which as we've just said, women are not allowed to have anything written on their faces. But there is a real earnestness to them and actually that really fits the roles because as the new Naked Gun is produced by

Seth MacFarlane who did that sort of comedy Spaghetti Western with Liam Neeson, he's done very little comedy actually, but what he was does in comedy is to play it completely straight. That's what the genius of the Zucker brother films is that is people playing these very silly scenes. Well, that's what Liam, that's what Leslie Nielsen did. Leslie Nielsen was a straight actor and in Airplane they cast him because he'd only ever played those roles before. And you know, by and large, he was a police squad, we started the Naked Gun franchise again, they brought him in because they knew that you don't play any of the jokes, which is what Liam Neeson does brilliantly in the new Naked Gun. You wouldn't know there was a single joke in the whole film the way he plays it which is perfect which and he's so good at doing

like he did the RUC officer in Derry Girls. Yes and he's an extras as well he did an amazing turn in extras when he said he wanted to start doing comedy and it is hilariously funny in his unfunnyness when he talks about not wanting to do comedy. Anyway, so he's, we love Liam Neeson. What we also love is that they'd sworn off romance, which is so, you know, high minor Jane Austen of her. He said last year, only last year he said, no, I'm passed all of that. And I mean, she's had a number of husbands and she, I think she made it very clear that she just was interested in doing her garden and things like that nowadays.

They've both got sons of almost the same age. The sons are very devoted and obviously Liam Neeson had this terrible tragedy where his wife Natasha Richardson died in a skiing accident in, I think, 2009. And we all know the tragedies of Pamela's life, which are really, there's something particular about her that is a sort of turbocharged Americana. I always think she'd had very difficult childhood with abuse and terrible stories of rape and all these sorts of things. But she was discovered on a jumbotron at a football game. Really?

It was a look that kind of met the male gaze fairly unflinchingly and when they, and they saw it and they and she was almost famous by half time. She was down there doing, the LeBats got her, the beer brand got her down and she was doing something already and then she did Playboy. Her book is brilliant by the way. Some of the anecdotes, she's very very generous about some of the things that have happened to her but all the stuff that happens at the Playboy Mansion is basically untranslatable to a modern era. And you just think... I was barely translatable then. We always sort of pretend I was at a different time,

but even then that was unacceptable. She sort of has always, I don't want to say driven, but men have behaved in a particularly sort of feral and unpleasant version of themselves in her presence. It's like they found gold in the Old West. Yeah. Tim Allen, she said, on the first day of Home Improvement flashed her. He says he didn't.

But she said, she says it's one of many encounters where people felt they knew me well enough to make absolute fools out of themselves. She's very gracious. Scott Bio, he inspects her toes and ears at the Playboy Mansion before sort of making a move on her. But then he gets in trouble with his family because she's allowed to drive his Mercedes convertible. It's also sort of with that even like Tom Ford, not really his finest output, puts her in a corset and says, now you've got no organs, you must never leave the house again without, you know, not being in a

corset. Yeah. And then comes Liam on a white horse. He just needs to be who she is. But well, it's not then along comes Liam, is there? Because what happens, she marries Tommy Lee. If you want to read a book about a particular corner of the music industry, read Motley Crew, The Dirt. Oh, it's amazing. It's one of the greatest books of all time.

It's amazing. And I think the New York Times review, which I think may be on the cover of the old one that I have is utterly compelling and completely revolting. And it's fair. Anyway- Great holiday reading if you're gonna have something to read on the beach. Oh my God, terrific.

Tommy Lee, the drummer in Motley Crue, sees Pamela Anderson and she says it's as if she was in a black spotlight and he goes over to her and licks her face. Classic first mate. Well, you know, not much longer than much later they're getting married on a beach and you know she's in a bikini and I think he only weds in swimwear Tommy Lee because I seem to remember some pictures of

him and Heather Locklear and I think they married. He married Heather Locklear as well. But then the sex tape comes, is stolen and it really was stolen but she instantly realizes that it will be a horrendous thing for her and her career and it will stop her career completely, even though, you know, she'd done play, she'd done all these things and it would be great for him. Which is as it proved. It was one of those things, it's a bit like Monica Lewinsky now, that is something that at the time, like it was just jokes all the time about it in the same way that Monica Lewinsky was, particularly late

night, it was just sort of every night for months and months. And then now you just think, I don't understand how they couldn't see that that was whatever. And all of us were, you know, lots of us were involved in that and just thinking it was a sort of joke, not really fully understanding because you didn't have the... Yeah, very few people question. We don't question very much about the world around us most of the time. We think we're constantly questioning, but actually we're questioning the waves. We're never questioning the tides. And those are the things we're born on, aren't they? I think that's a very good way of putting it. Yeah. And it became this terrible thing

for her. And they were actually thinking she was going to sue at the time, but she said that depositions were such a nightmare of the way there's what she was forced to go through by the lawyers. And she was forced to go through by The lawyers and she was pregnant. She'd already had a miscarriage and she thought she'd have another one So she couldn't go through with it in the end It's really interesting actually that Hulu series Which I watched some of it had a chance to be a revisionist version of what that moment was like I basically played it as a comedy I think actually Lily James wrote an apology letter which Pamela Anderson says she's never opened or didn't open, I doubt she retains it to

read later. They really did it so badly I think and they just didn't know what they wanted to be with it. It could have been very interesting but it wasn't. And then she became quite a sort of radical and she became, you know, she got caught up with sort of Vivian Westwood and different forms of activism and she did lots for Peter. And she actually, I mean, she was a point where she had befriended Julian Assange. That's right. Do you remember? In and out of the embassy, wasn't she? Well, now he certainly made it seem as though something was happening there. That was his

attempt, I think, at a showmance. Yeah, because at the time, I think she was either married to or dating somebody like the centre back for Marseille and I remember thinking, you're luckier on your little Ecuadorian self-imposed hidey hole aren't you? Because I don't think he's going to love this. I can see what you're doing and he's not going to love it, the centre back for Marseille. But anyway. That's by the way a West End play in three or four years time is Pamela Anderson visiting Julian Assange and a tiny room in the Ecuadorian embassy.

Yes. Yeah, I mean it could be. But actually the most radical thing she did was, as you say, was that two or three years ago, she said, I think she was in Paris and it was, she was getting ready for some party and she thought, well, I could actually sit in a makeup chair for the billionth time in my life for three hours. Oh, I could just go to the Louvre and I think I'll do that. But it's become so completely radical, the fact that she doesn't wear makeup and, or she wears sort of

minimal makeup. She said to Vogue Paris, if we all chase youth, then we're only going to be disappointed and maybe a little bit sad. And it's become this is sort of extraordinary thing, almost as a result of that or as part of that the sense that she was sort of shedding everything that had gone before. She was offered this script for the last show girl. In fact, one of her sons, Brandon Lee, not that one, insisted that she look at it. She took the role and she was nominated for a Golden Globe. I mean, it's a lovely story, isn't it? Right? All that was needed to sew a button on it was love. Yeah. The love of a real man. Well, what we really, I mean, we wanted Leslie Nielsen and Priscilla Presley because again, she was someone whom a lot of life had happened in the original Naked Gun. But that age difference would have been too much Leslie Nielsen and Priscilla Presley.

You're right it would have been. They're sort of all blurred now and I can't quite remember. You're right. A lovely age-appropriate relationship. What is she, 58 and he's 72, something like that? Oh is that right? I think so. Oh okay, I thought he was younger. Oh right,, you're not gonna gender police that age gap are you? Well I don't know, I think age gaps are allowed to get older as you get older. I think whatever the algorithm is, I think a 14 year age gap when you're 72 is different to a 14 year age gap when you're 27. Oh yeah, I mean I think we're both on that. Well once again you found something on which we be entirely agree. Because otherwise your partner would be what, 41? But what's great about this is they're still out there on the red carpet and doing all

the... Oh my God, Naked Gun must be over the moon about it. Can you imagine? It is an amazing film, I have to say as well. So that is that... Oh, did you see it? Yeah, yeah. That's part of the good news story is that the film people say, oh, why they, why they

haven't to remake Naked Gun? For goodness sake, I have a new idea. Well, the first Naked Gun was 38 years ago. They're allowed to do a sequel after 38 years. Well, it's a franchise. You can't get a comedy in cinemas. You just can't get one in. So you can if it's got what they would regard as established IP. When you look at the numbers, it skews incredibly old. And when I say incredibly old, it's like 33% over 45, which doesn't sound like anything, but actually for movies these days is extraordinary because it's a young person's game movies and so

this is appealing to an older audience and it's not bringing the kids into the cinemas, which I think is a shame because like I can't think of a kid who wouldn't love this film in the same way that it was for kids when it came out in the first place, now it's for people who were kids who are now adults. It's Gen X to take Gen R for kids too. Exactly and Liam Neeson and Pounder Anderson is not a great romance for anyone under 25. They're literally sitting in the back of cars now going, what are you talking about? Who on earth do you mean? For people of our generation, it's a great movie. For people who've got younger kids, just take them, not seven year olds, but it's a really,

really, really stupid, funny movie, like in the good old days. It's made by Paramount. It will make money enough. I hope so. It's hard. Yes, it will, because I think it only costs 42 million or something. It's hard to get any comedy movie into. Yeah. I mean, this has happened. They were going to do this streaming, it was going to go, I think, on to Paramount Plus, as I remember it. And but obviously,

once these two became attached, then you can put it in cinemas. But it's very, very hard to have a straight comedy in a in the film theatre, obviously. Well, the funny thing is that's that's Gilmore to did not go there. It didn't, but it's a great film. I won't hear if you if I'm not going to have another anti Happy Gilmore 2 rant because I think it's one of the great movies of 2025. But interestingly even back in 1982 it was hard to get Naked Gun into the cinemas because um Zuka Abrams, Zuka who were the people behind Airplane and everything they came up with Police Squad which turned into Naked Gun they came up with it as a film they wanted it to be the follow-up to airplane but

Michael Eisner who we mentioned an awful lot said you don't really have a story here it's just a sort of series of episodes he says so I'll commission it as a TV series for you so he commissioned six episodes of police squad and again if you've got kids who have not seen police squad and have a certain sensibility and sense of humor, that is a great thing to find on streaming. There are only six episodes of police squad. They only put out four, it was like a late summer replacement. They put out four episodes and they then cancelled it, didn't show the last two. And if you think our culture has

changed, do you know why they cancelled it? They said that there's so much going on that people have to pay too much attention. They said, and we don't think people pay that much attention to TV. Tony Tomopoulos, who was the ABC Entertainment president, he said that viewers have to pay close attention to the show in order to get much of the humor. He said, this is according to Leslie Nielsen, he said the viewer had to watch it in order to appreciate it. And that's why it's cancelled. TV Guide magazine called the explanation for the cancellation, the most stupid reason a network ever gave for ending a series. Just wait.

Yeah, oh my God, you've got some fun to come. So after that was cancelled, they did. They found like a storyline, turned it into Naked Gun. And here we are many years later with Liam Neeson and Pamela Anderson in love. It's a joy. It's an unadulterated joy and it's charming. What do we think about the pressure of being in that relationship when it's like in your friendship group when a couple gets together and everyone's like, oh, this is great. Do you know what? We've all been thinking for a while this would be absolutely perfect and it makes everybody,

you can see the happiness it gives everyone. It completes the group. But for those people, there's an enormous amount of pressure to stay together. Yes, this has completed me. But if you're Pam and Liam, you've got the happiness of almost every single person over the age of 50 in Britain in your hands. Yeah, it's a huge responsibility. I tell you what, if anyone can handle that level of responsibility, it's those two. Yeah, I would thought so. I wish them all the best. Liz and Billy Ray are still going strong. I, you know, I need my third round of romance, but I, by the end of the

year, by the end of the year is fine. In the old days, all we had was Rupert Murdoch and Jerry Hall. I'm just not sure if it fits the template we're looking for. Yeah. Sadly sundered. Not for Jerry, of course, not sadly. But Delightfully sundered. Delightfully sundered for the delightful Gerry. But yes, we'll have to wait and see how it develops, but we wish them all the best. It's like something out of a sort of comedy romance novel and I absolutely love it.

Shall we go to a break? Yeah, I need a breather after that. And then we'll talk about how on earth one follows up the traitors and what could possibly go wrong. Hey everyone, this episode is brought to you by Sky. Which means it's time to talk about Mr Big Stuff, the Sky original comedy which earned Danny Dyer a BAFTA for season one. His first BAFTA. He returns as Lee, a man reacting to major life developments with self-pity, avoidance and long afternoons in a garden chair. His brother Glenn, played by Ryan Sampson, the show's creator and a fan favourite from Brassica and Plebs, takes a different approach, launching an investigation despite having no qualifications beyond stress, impulse and alarming levels of determination.

One of those shows that is not exactly what you expect, but also such a great reminder that the mighty Danny Dyer is such a colossus in the middle of our culture. It's sharp, it's chaotic, it's tender tender with cameos from Linda Henry, Sean Williamson and Rula Lensker to keep things grounded. Danny Dyer is one of those people if you turn up on a TV show and he's also on you think oh we're in for a fun day here and also whenever you're watching a TV program or a film and he turns up you're thinking oh we're in for some fun here. Listen I've watched him on a film, I've watched him on an entertainment show, I'd watch him on Mr Big Stuff.

All episodes of Mr Big Stuff, series two, are available on Sky and series one's there too if you'd like to trace the spiral back to its source. Requires relevant Sky TV subscription. Welcome back everybody. Now, there are roughly a billion formats competing to be the new traitors am I right Richard, roughly? Yes, everyone thought that formats were dead and then traitors came along and proved that they weren't and as always after such a thing there is a gold rush to find an exact copy of that or as close as one can possibly get. I'm going to talk us through a few of the runners and riders now, but starting with Destination X, which started on BBC One this week and is

definitively straight out of the traps, an attempt to do exactly what the traders did. Not in terms of the format, it's not exactly the same, but it has similarities in terms of where it comes from. Now Destination X, if you have not seen it, Rob Brydon hosts. I love him. I absolutely love him. I felt there were moments where he was thinking, how am I possibly able to... What's that Reagan quote? If you're explaining, you're losing. I mean, there's a lot of explaining of how the show works from him. Absolutely. Go back and watch the first episode of The Traitors, have a look at how much explanation there is there. There's a lot.

Okay, fine. I need to do that. Because... We must somewhere. I'll talk to him. I felt talk about involved in some rad gibberish at times for that. And he by the way, doesn't absolutely styling amazing, amazing job as he always does. He's faultless. I'm sensing I liked this show a bit more than you did, but we will get to that. Oh, yes, I think you probably did. So destination X, it's a group of people 13. I think they cut it down to 10 almost immediately. They are on a blacked out coach driving through Europe and they only have one job,

which is at the end of the episode, they have to work out where they are. And they have to mark with an X on the map where they are and the person who's furthest away, lose the show, right? Which is simple, it's a nice, simple hook. That is essentially, you don't know where you are, but you're given clues, you're sort of driven around, you're given clues and with those clues, you have to work out exactly where you are and try and get as

close as possible. Now, first two episodes went out last week, next two are this week. This was in the same way that the traitors had been a hit in Europe, with a I have to say, a fairly different format to the one that Studio Lambert bought over here and made into a hit. Destination X was called Besteming X and it was in Belgium. There was a big auction for it because this was like the hot new format and because traders have been big in a European territory and had come over to the UK and America and been a big hit, every single person, this is what I try and get across is that this is how all creative industries work. Every single person in every single territory and every single broadcaster is thinking, what is the next version of that?

So they're not necessarily thinking, what's the show where we can vote people off? They're thinking, what's the next big thing that's worked in another European territory that is sort of a reality show that has ordinary people on it instead of celebrities and renews our faith in the format? And this was the next out of the box. And that had, because it had already aired in Belgium and they thought it was a bit like it. It had already aired in Belgium, it was two hours long and the numbers sounded great.

The numbers, when you look into it, I think the Belgians did a very, very good job selling this because the numbers really, really, really did not stack up in terms of the original version of what we were told the numbers were. Because they said that they had enormous amounts of viewers in Belgium. Yes. And it's, we're all very good at massaging figures.

And I think because everyone was so excited, there might be this new show, everyone, you know, suddenly there's a bidding frenzy. So the BBC buy it, put it out to tender to all the big British production companies. I'm sure Studio Lambert behind the traitors, I'm sure they went for it. And a company called 2Four made it, who we'll talk about a bit more. Who've done loads of great shows absolutely you know they absolutely know what they're doing so they've got this show on their hands came out this week as I say and it's interesting I rather enjoyed it but

everyone wants it to be something it sort of isn't that idea that you're driven in a blacked out coach and you have to work out where you are it's a it's kind of neat it's kind of thing oh that's quite. And it's a guessing game and you can play along at home. So, you know, it's not like the traitors, where they tell you the traitors are at this. You don't know where you are. So you're trying to look for clues and things like that as well.

So it's got a bit of, you know, that kind of, oh, you've got alliances like in the traitors and you've got this incredible scenery like race across the world. So you think, well, that's what you're aware everyone is buying into. That's the thing that So you think, well, that's what you're aware everyone is buying into. That's the thing that if you're the BBC, you're saying the show we would like is a show

that has the kind of tension of the traitors and the beauty of race across the world. And of course, two, four, when they actually have to make the thing, they're like, well, the alliance thing doesn't really work. We have to slightly make that work with the formats. In the traitors, that's all you've got. And then this you have to force it.

And because you're playing along at home with this, you also can't really show an awful lot of where you are. So the scenery doesn't really work either. So the things that, you know, they're saying to two four, this is what we really, really want. It's been a big hit in Belgium. It hadn't really, uh, we want the beauty of race across the world. We can't really have that.

And we want the tension and tactics of the traders. We can't really have that and we want the tension and tactics of the traitors We can't really do that either. Okay, so That's where to four find themselves. They make this show I genuinely thought was a good show we watched a second episode as well, which I really enjoyed But it is not the show everyone thinks it is going to be so two four's job is to make a show that is good And hope that you know People start watching it but isn't people are not going to watch it because of the traitors and people are not going to watch it because a race across

The world and people are not going to watch it because it was hit in Belgium You know what they do have is loads and loads of trails and they have a great host In Rob and they have goodwill from the channel and all of all of those things and so if they make a good show they Have a fighting chance, but it is not going to get any tailwind from the traitors at all. Now ITV and Netflix went a slightly different way. They said, no, we're literally going to do our version of the traitors. So ITV got a fortune hotel with Steven Mangan, which is the traitors, but in a resort Netflix have got a million dollar secret with Peter Serafinowich, which is

like the traitors, but for a million dollars because there's Netflix. In a remote resort. In a remote resort and those are both going to a second series because actually if you'd like the traitors both of those are giving you the same show. Really I'm lots of little clever little twists and what-have-you and they all look lovely and they've got great hosts. Yeah I can't stand that that overpolished type of American reality television. I really so much prefer our version of it, I have to say. I mean, I was actually having an argument with one of my children about this, but they're really incredibly gorgeous, but they're also a cop. And so,

yeah, but at every single point, they are so aware of the camera on them as an aesthetic object that it's too polished. You don feel that there I don't know it's just to manage the performance but we're watching something we're watching something entirely different because in America you look at the American Traitors yeah which a lot of British people do not like watching I love watching it and it there's this sort of professional contestants yeah they are people from other strategy shows they're people from other franchises some of you know each other already some of you have alliances so it's an entirely

different show played by people who know what to say to camera, played by people who understand the game they're playing, understand Which camera's on them? Which camera's on them and why, understanding what the viewers want. And funnily enough, the American Destination X is exactly the same. They bought in kind of reality show veterans. Jeffrey Dean Morgan's the host of that one, right? Jeffrey Dean Morgan from The Walking Dead is the host, but like with contestants,

yeah, you've got people, you know, who people already know. I was speaking to a number of people on that show and they said, I mean, the Belgian version is two hours long. The NBC version is 42 minutes long. And also, one of the main things about the show, let me get at the same time as the UK one, that's part of the deal with these things now to make them affordable. He said, we've got a bus full of Americans. at the same time as the UK one. That's part of the deal with these things now to make them affordable. He said, we've got a bus full of Americans

and this show is all about, do you know at least a tiny bit about European geography? Like, do you know, for example, that Austria is next to Switzerland? Like, if you see a mountain, do you know you're not in the Netherlands? Have you at least bought a map before the show starts and had a look?

And none of the Americans have the first clue of what any of the countries in Europe are, where they might be. So it's a much more difficult show to make for the Americans have the first clue of what any of the countries in Europe are where they might be So it's a it's a much more difficult show to make for the Americans Oh, you're telling me I know and have a look at it. Yeah, exactly Yes, they've done the whole first season. It's kind of started alright because it was it was sandwiched by American Idol It didn't finish great. It's one of those ones where yeah, they might do another series So which I suspect might be the same with this one as well. I think if they can get through

this first series of Destination X there's a few little tweaks they can make that people would end up being fairly in love with this show. It has a charm to it I would say. That's Destination X, so Fortune Hotel and... I thought it was a complete mess. I mean really but anyway... But people do with first episodes. So first episodes of things are so hard to make because the channel are constantly saying you have to explain things. Always explain, always explain.

Well, there's no shortage of explanation. Whereas on YouTube, no one ever explains anything. You trust the audience. The audience kind of go, yeah, I get it. You know, which means things are like half the, take half the time. And yeah, there's always, always, always, there's a generation of program makers

who have to fall back on over-explaining and thinking, no, the audience must know the audience is not listening. The audience is not listening to you. They are literally on their phone until you get to the good bit. I agree that I was mostly pick it up if they like it. And the other stuff is good enough. I don't think the rules are so long as you have rules, as long as you know what the rules are and you know that they're fair. So when people really get into it, they understand what's happening. Stop telling people what is about to happen or

what might happen or what could happen or how you could get immunity or how you know you don't need to do any of that at all I would say. Now Destination X has a sort of a cousin which again when the traitors got big in Europe, there was the bidding war for Destination X. There was also a bidding war for a program called The Bots, which is Norwegian, which is visually very, very arresting. It's celebrities, ten of them, I think I was watching the Norwegian episodes with subtitles, listen there's only so much I can do, and people are put inside boxes, they're taken to a particular location somewhere beautiful. Normally, the boxes then open, they have no idea where they

are. There is a game in front of them, they have no idea how to play it, they don't know what the rules are to the game. And essentially, they play the game, play the game, play the game until somebody loses. And then they get back in the box and they're moved to the next location. So ITV are doing this one. So BBC have done Destination X, ITV are doing this one. It's their direct attempt to be traitors. Like it actually did do quite well in Norway. The numbers there do sort of stack up. I just heard who the host is for ITV.

I think it's a very, very good choice for host. I think it's I think it'll be an interesting one. It is again. Can you not tell us? No, I can't because they have to do launches and stuff and they'd be like, God, can you imagine just me just saying it? Yeah. I just think that also, you know, people just lovely him Lisa now. So I just think he's perfect. So that is a show where actually has a lot of similar to destination X in that you're

going around Europe, you're going around wherever and you go to beautiful places, but you can actually see those places. In this instance, it has lots of issues. It does have lots of issues, but all formats do have issues. But it's celebrities, it'll be Saturday night, they're spending a lot of money, a lot of money. So this is like a really, really big swing. Destination X is BBC's big swing. The box is ITV's big swing and having seen the original versions of both, the Box has the neater format. Now Channel 4 are entering the fray. They have not copied buying a show from abroad. They have not copied the format of the Traters. What they've done is go to Studio Lambert who made the Tritors and said would you do something

similar for us and so they've got a show called the inheritance and It is Liz Hurley our friend yeah plays a character who's leaving a sum of money to a group of people and Those people in a traitors sort of style Cyrus's because if not, I don't care They are not although I listen if Billy Ray Cyrus turns up at the launch on Wednesday, everyone is going to be, can you imagine launching a show and Billy Ray Cyrus turns up with Liz Hurley? I want him to turn up into this recording studio, so yes, please carry on.

That'll be cool. So the inheritance is, it's a load of money. I think it's 200,000 pounds and Destination X is 100,000 pounds. But the hook of that is one person must persuade all the others that the money should just go to them. That's the idea of that show and that will play out in various ways. And again, there's been loads of shows like that

without prejudice was that, where people are trying to get all that money for themselves. We did a show called Divided Quiz Show years ago, which was exactly the same. You have to persuade people that the money should be yours. So that's Channel 4's attempt to do it. It's interesting, people go, Oh God, people got no imagination commissioners have got you just copying the last thing. But you think, yeah, but you sort of have to, you have to follow audiences. I can't

tell you what a shot in the arm it was for the entertainment industry when the traitors was a hit. I mean, that's just such great news. And the same way that last one laughing being a hit for Amazon prime is great news for the comedy entertainment industry. It's brilliant. And you do want to try and build on that momentum. You understand these audiences, you like these sort of games, and you do want to do your own version of it. If I can speak of my experience of what came along in the wake of Deal or No Deal. Firstly, it was huge. But secondly, it was unusual in the same way. So Traters came along, it was huge and it was unusual. And so everyone started going, Oh, perhaps we could look at things we haven't looked at before.

Perhaps there are different types of shows that we've been turning away or we hadn't even thought of that might work for us. And after Deal or No Deal, oh my God, it was amazing. It was like the Wild West for about five years. I mentioned a couple of the shows that came along in the wake of it. The lesson most of the channels took from Deal or No Deal is people are happy to watch people being lucky, right? Which is not the lesson to take from Deal or No Deal because it's not about luck at all. It's about when you quit. So it's about like any relationship or any job you've ever had. It's about what's the optimum time to leave this. And that's an interesting psychological experiment.

That's what that show is. It's not, we're lucky, we have some sort of random system. So Channel 5 commissioned Heads or Tails, which was Justin Lee Collins. And all you had to do is guess heads or tails over a series of rounds to go through or to make money. And understandably, that went for nothing because people didn't want to watch just pure luck. A few years before Deal or No Deal came out, Claudia Rosencrantz, who was head of entertainment at ITV, probably the great unsung genius of British entertainment because she commissioned every single ITV hit.

Like I'm a celebrity, pop idol, millionaire, takeaway, all of these things are Claudia Rosencrantz. And she had been pitched a show called Red or Black, which essentially is sort of heads or tails. It's, you know, kind of gambling. It's, you know, do I go on red? Do I go on black? They did a pilot of it hosted by Brian Connolly. I've done a few pilots with Brian Connolly. I loved it. I love doing pilots with Brian Connolly. I prefer doing series with him, but he's such a funny man. Anyway, she said, I didn't believe people would like to see someone win a vast sum of money with no skills at all involved. Secondly, gambling is not a spectator sport. You get an adrenaline rush from participating in it. That's what Claudia said. And she was right. Did I know a deal comes along suddenly

this gold rush of Oh, no, but actually, you know, blind chance. That's what people like enter Simon Cowell. So Simon Cowell takes this thing red or black, suddenly it's his idea. And he goes, No, I'm doing this. It's going to be the biggest game show ever. It's going to have a million pound prize every night. Anton Decker going to host it. And it is literally do you choose red? Do you choose choose black and there's no this complete luck all the way through and you win a million pounds purely through luck and he said no this is the Americans are going to go crazy for this everybody loves this show and I had great people involved great people making it but they must have known as well and it was an absolute car crash it cost

so much money four nights in a row they gave away a million pounds. Once they gave away a million pounds to someone with a criminal record. Yeah, it was, I mean, it was an absolute mess. It was full of Simon Cowell psycho acts playing gigs and stuff on this show and to Decker in the middle of it. Not quite knowing what's going on. It costs so much money. It got beaten. I think the second episode got beaten by um Countryfile and Inspector George Gently on BBC One the next one got beaten by Watchdog it was nobody wanted to watch it all of those great shows but because they took the wrong lesson but we always take the wrong lesson which is we want a game of chance and we don't want a game of chance we want something

that is that actually asks us an interesting question Is the lesson of all of these things that there's almost only one show in which the style the substance the secret source or whatever is perfectly Melded and it's the one that already exists. Yeah, and what you actually want is the next Different vibe off the rack, but that's harder to do and it's much more expensive because you have to try a load of them I absolutely see why in every industry, we got, listen, whoever invested in, um, the verb after Oasis made a lot of money, you know, it's, it's, you know, as my grandfather used to say, if you're called to a fight in a pub, be second through the door is not crazy, but yeah, we always learn the long, the wrong lesson. And actually in a year's time,

it'll be like some show. No one was even thinking of that starts in, you know, as a small sort of daytime slot that someone the one oh now we need the new this. You can't run a creative business that way you have to be chasing what people like already as well you know you have to be doing both of those things and as you say it's the same in films publishing I mean everything it is the same in absolutely everything and it always will be and it doesn't come from lack of imagination of course there's you know 80% of people who work in any industry have a lack of imagination. That's absolutely fine.

But it's up to the other 20% to toil away and come up with something while we're all trying to look for the next big thing. Now, talking of next big things, Wednesday is out on Wednesday. Yes. Starring Jenna Ortega, who is the biggest star of the biggest show in the world. Tell us about her. Yeah, well, it's Netflix's biggest ever English language show and it became absolutely huge. I mean, she's only 22. It's quite extraordinary, really.

But I've got to say, well, we'll talk about her because it's quite interesting what she represents. It's quite interesting. I think what people need to do to be stars in the modern era and to be the ones that break out and become absolutely massive. But just a sort of word on the show really, which I mean you'll you will know because it's so enormous. Tim Burton directs it. Bella Bajeri, who's the Netflix chief content officer said it went beyond analytics. People watched it multiple times. They brought their parents there so it became this multi-generational show. It was number one in 83 territories. Yeah. There were soldiers in Ukraine doing the Wednesday dance, which was the sort of breakout

moment from it. But as for who is General Ortega, she's like so many stars. She emerged from the Disney factory. She was- Crazy, right? Yeah. She was in, I mean, how many of them? She played Harley Diaz in Stuck in the Middle. She was a sort of middle child. But then she moved into sort of horror, slasher films and she was in Scream. She had a couple of franchises in Scream, UX, various reboots. She said, I screamed really, really well. She said, that's why I did so well in horror films. I've got a great scream. Yeah, she's a scream queen in all senses. She became a scream queen and she's obviously,

recently we've seen her in movies as Winona Ryder's daughter in the kind of Winona Ryder role in Beetlejuice, Beetlejuice, which is also directed by Tim Burton. So it's interesting that child stardom thing is very significant and obviously so many people in American popular culture, which has become all of our popular culture, come via that Disney route. But she's befriended quite a lot of those sorts of people. People like Natalie Portman, people like Winona Ryder. And her interview persona is quite interesting. She's so on it. I mean, like lots of these people, she's the most switched on 22 year old you've ever heard.

And Natalie Portman said, "'Child actors cultivate a serious personality usually "'because otherwise that people will treat them "'like children forever.'" So she's, and sometimes people say she's an old soul, which she hates, General Otago, she thinks that's a way of them getting in your head. Although that said, she did publish a book

at the age of 18, at the age of 18, which is called, "'It's All Love, Reflections for Your Heart and Soul. And it is worth looking up some quotes. If she doesn't have an old soul, she's pretending to have one. She's not held back by self-doubt. She doesn't seem to be. She has great faith both in the Lord and in herself. Yeah. Well, about this show, what about it? I think she thought, oh, maybe I'll be pigeon hole, but obviously it's Tim Burton and it's Netflix, it's going to be a big thing. Yeah, so you say yes to it.

Yes. In terms of what she represents and the way she talks about what she brings is, as I say, it's incredibly switched on. She says, oh, studios are scared because they don't know why things hit the way they do. And although in some ways this is an old story, it's a very particular story of now where these big old, either legacy companies or companies run by people from necessarily older generations don't really know who or what Gen Z and Gen Alpha like. They don't understand what breaks out, what works,

and they have to ally themselves with people who for some reason think, who seem to sort of instinctively capture or understand something about the attention economy. That idea that lots of, I mean, it's a very cynical way of looking at it, but you know, as long as a series can spawn a number of memes, some gifs and one TikTok, then maybe you've got a hit. And there's a set. I want two memes, one gif and one TikTok, then maybe you've got a hit. Yeah, I want two memes, one gif and two and a half TikToks. Then you got yourself a hit. And they don't really know why. And to some extent, that's always been

the case. And you look back and people making, you know, in the eras of which would deem to be the invention of the teenager and there are people making James Dean movies thinking, I don't really know what we're doing, but he speaks in some way to young people. I was reading Ben Elton's autobiography, which doesn't come out till October, but there's some interesting stories in there about things, you know, how something like the Young Ones got commissioned, where quite obviously, the kind of pretty nice and diffident executives at the BBC don't know what on earth it is and don't understand, but we back these people who we do think are good. It'd be fun to do a Q&A special with Ben Elton.

Oh my god. I wonder if you'll do it with the young ones and Blackadder and then We Will Rock You and Saturday Night Live, all of that stuff. We should definitely do that. So as I say there are, what General Ortega represents is someone who... I keep thinking you're saying General Ortega. General... I'm so sorry.

Every time. But it's Jenna Ortega. who she's one of the same general or take a general every year every time but as general or take a she's more disciplined than general nori agar but what they think that she represents she they can see that she has a connection she really does because she's such a mega hit if you went out on halloween last year pretty much all girls from the age of about seven till about 14 if they're going out trick or treating, they are going as Wednesday in one form or another. And she's very calculating in the way she talks about it to say out loud, people are scared because they don't know why things hit. So she wants you to know that she's playing a very strategic game. And I

think, you know, that's part of that child star thing where you have to, as we know, you have to be taken very seriously very quickly. I must be taken seriously because otherwise I'll be taken as a child. And that's not an ego thing, you sort of have to, otherwise your time passes you by. But the ones who break through, the ones who are becoming much bigger, people like Sydney Sweeney, I'm not even going to admit of this ridiculous controversy that's happened about the jeans advert.

Oh yeah. No, I can't. Everyone who was involved in that should be embarrassed. Or people like Jenna Ortega, there's something about them that is grabbing people, but it's grabbing people across what we might call different demographics. And what's interesting about her is that she did make some mistake. I mean, she's pretty young. She went on a podcast in the writer's strike and said, oh, there were certain lines in the first series of Wednesday where just they were not at all what the character has said. So I unfortunately, you know, I had to rewrite them in the scene, which is kind of like, okay, sorry, what Missy? And there was a big

backlash against that. And it's interesting. She's come back, she's addressed it and said, yeah, I should have just said, sometimes I improvise. And that would have been fine. So there's a way of talking, but she, you know, she's, it's machine learning, you absorb the lesson and you don't do it again. And I think they've got a sort of wry joke about it where the editor says to her, she submits a book in season two and the editor says to her, you will, you don't take notes very well. And so it's a sort of joke. It's a play on that. But it reminds me a little bit about Rachel Zegler, who also, you know, has been perceived to be slightly difficult, and why her, she's going to have to claw back her sort of reputation as it were, one amazing Evita balcony

performance at a time in the West End, and I'm sure it will be going to Broadway. And, yeah, General Otega has somehow... It doesn't matter. And I think the reason for that really is one is involved in a mega hit, and one is involved in something that flopped. If Snow White had been... had torn out the box office and been absolutely amazing, then people wouldn't be going on about those things anymore. And people are not going on about General Otega's

perceived bits of difficulty or kind of abrasiveness or saying the wrong thing because Wednesday is just this huge, huge hit. So often there is nothing like a hit. That's an awful lot of paint to put on your wall. Yeah, yeah. That'll cover up everything. She's not regarded as tricky. And there is something about the nature of the character where, you know, I suppose Snow White's this pure and innocent person, but Wednesday is difficult. She's an outsider. It's interesting she speaks to that sensibility, you know, everyone's an outsider. And that's what Tim Burton's always been so good at doing is gathering the mainstream and working with studios and

gathering, we talked about this when I talked about his exhibition, and gathering everyone into that thing where we all feel like we're the kind of excluded, weird, mad kid from Burbank, as he was growing up. And he taps into that sense of not quite fitting in that everyone has. And it makes it a sort of mainstream thing. But there's something about her that maybe taps into a whole sort of generational sense of alienation or something. And and that character so it's all right. She's permitted within that to perhaps be more prickly than you would accept from Disney Princess Rachel Zegler. It's going to have a hell of a career though in the next five years right Jenna? Oh my gosh she's doing so many things. I don't know if anyone saw Death of a Unicorn which

I really liked which is an A24 thing and she's doing the gallerist maybe that's with Natalie Portman which is a great concept. You know this one, the art fair in Basel, someone's desperate and has to try and sell a human corpse. Yeah, I like that one. Anyway, what else is she in? Clara and the Sond, which I haven't read, but one of my children was reading that Ushaguri novel. Tyka Waititi is going to direct her in that. And then there's an original JJ Abrams thing starring Samuel L. Jackson and oh, Glenn Powell. No, yeah, Jenna Ortega and Glenn Powell.

Yes, the streams will cross the streams across Richard untitled JJ Abrams project. That's a bit of fun. I you know what the JJ Abrams thing I think just because he's Gracie Abrams dad, they give him a movie. I don't that's not for me. I don't like that. I don't like that. So Wednesday is a big day because Wednesday is the launch of Wednesday on Netflix. Wednesday is the next episode of Destination X on BBC One. And Wednesday is also the press launch of The Inheritance. And we get to see Billy Ray Cyrus turns up with Liz Hurley. This week is all about Wednesdays. You know they asked me to audition for a role in Wednesday. Yeah I couldn't do it but I assume because of my height I assume and because it's kind of Adam's family so I assume there's this there's

some sort of tallness involved in it. Oh my god sorry no I did not know that and I can't believe you didn't do it. I can't remember why I couldn't in it. Oh my god, sorry, no I did not know that and I can't believe you didn't do it. I can't, for whatever, I can't remember why I couldn't do it. I was probably sort of doing a... You've got nothing in your schedule. What are you talking about? Talking head for Channel 5 or something. No, I couldn't do it, but that would be, because I'm not an actor in any way whatsoever, not

interested in being an actor, but the biggest show in the world, you'd like, oh well maybe that'd be... I just thought for the podcast. Yeah, do everything for the podcast. It'd be fine if I was in that for the podcast. I'm doing so many things now for the podcast, all of which will be revealed over the next few months. I'm doing things for the podcast. Recommendations? Yes, I want to recommend the team behind 24 Hours in Police Custody, one of the best made

shows on TV, The Garden, John Wilson and his team there have done a four-parter. Anyone who's watched any true crime documentaries, British ones in the last few years have been aware of EncroChat, which was the secret phones that all gangsters were using, like incredibly encrypted and the police managed to crack them and they had 74 days where they had access to every single thing that every single criminal in the world was talking about. And this operation dark phone murder by texas a four-parter it follows sort of three different stories but follows all the cops behind it as well it's they could have made it bad it's got kind of little kind of reconstruction things but it's so well made and also episode two i think maybe episode three there is a cop um from not umc called mick pope who might be the greatest police officer I've ever seen on a on a true

crime documentaries. Absolutely magnificent. But the whole thing is watching this tonight, really, really fascinating. And just that thing of, you know, just these people live among us and the way they talk to each other. My favourite thing on the whole thing is for enquire chat, you have like a two word name. So like one of the main guys is called live long and there's stuff like that. But there's there's there's a guy on the edge of it and he said, I wish you'd been the main character all the way. He was called ball sniffer. And you're like, and you could imagine in the edit if ball sniffer was like the main guy, they think, can we is this okay? Can we just can we say ball sniffer 40 times in this documentary? I absolutely loved it. So you can

watch it on all four. It's called Operation Dark Phone Murder by Text. Well, I'm sorry, but I have to recommend, I don't need to apologize to you because I have to recommend your upcoming new Thursday Murder Couplet, which you gave me just before I went on holiday. I read it on holiday. It's called The Impossible Fortune.

You know this, Richard, I mean, I'm seeing you across the title. Sounds good. Yeah, no, it's by far the best one yet and I love all the others. That's nice. It's funnier. I don't know, I was saying to you, can you just go deeper with the characters? Is that what it is at this point?

It's more affecting, more everything. I absolutely, it is like a step change on something that's already brilliant. Okay, so I absolutely love that. And it's not out to the end of September, but you can pre-order it, I guess. Oh, that's very, very kind of you. I very kind. I loved it. I love very much. Well, listen, I Stand by my recommendation of the channel for documentary Lots of lovely things this week. It was a lot. Yeah We would we plan to return full to misery next week, but there was

week We'll have a question and answers edition on Thursday, and we're finally, for our members, doing the results of the greatest British sitcom of all time, including lots of polling that More In Common have done about what sitcoms tell us about your politics. Oh my god, which is a revelation to say the least.

It really is a revelation. Okay, if you want to join the club for ad-free listening and much more, it's TheRest is Entertainment.com. Otherwise we'll be back as always with a Questions and Answers edition on Thursday. See you then. See you then. This episode was brought to you by our good friends at Sky who've made something rather special. Yep, a TV and a smarter one at that called Sky Glass. No box, no dish, no cables creating abstract modern art on the wall.

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