The Rest Is Entertainment - The MasterChef Disaster - What Happens Next?

Episode Date: July 16, 2025

John Torode and Gregg Wallace have been sacked from the BBC's flagship cookery programme MasterChef - but what happens next to them and the upcoming shows? Richard Osman and Marina Hyde answer your questions about the latest scandal affecting the BBC. John Torode says that he has “no recollection of any of this” and “does not believe it happened”. John Torode’s team have been approached for comment by Goalhanger The Rest Is Entertainment AAA Club: Become a member for exclusive bonus content, early access to our Q&A episodes, ad-free listening, access to our exclusive newsletter archive, discount book prices on selected titles with our partners at Coles, early ticket access to future live events, and our members’ chatroom on Discord. Just head to therestisentertainment.com to sign up, or start a free trial today on Apple Podcasts: apple.co/therestisentertainment. For more Goalhanger Podcasts, head to www.goalhanger.com Assistant Producer: Aaliyah Akude Video Editor: Kieron Leslie, Charlie Rodwell, Adam Thornton, Harry Swan Producer: Joey McCarthy Senior Producer: Neil Fearn Head of Content: Tom Whiter Exec Producers: Tony Pastor + Jack Davenport Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

On July 18th, get excited. For the summer's biggest adventure. That's a little too excited. Hello and welcome to this standalone Q&A episode of The Rest is Entertainment. I'm Marina Hyde. And I'm Richard Arden. Well done for studiously avoiding the term emergency podcast. It is a standalone podcast about a developing news event, isn't it Richard? And specifically, it's been another great week for men in television. We are talking about MasterChef and the firing of John Turrode and Greg Wallace and we're doing it because we had so many questions. So we're leaving our regular Q&A thing as

it is as a MasterChef free zone but we're going to answer all your questions about MasterChef on this one that we've spoken to and a lot of people involved on a lot of sides of this particular issue so hopefully we have some interesting information. If you've mercifully been cryogenically cocooned from this story, which many people chose to be, what happened is that a number of accusations were made about Greg Wallace and there's been a long investigation by an independent law firm, Lewis Silkin,

into allegations about what happened on the set of MasterChef. We already know that Greg Wallace has been fired. We now have discovered this week that John Turrode, his co-presenter, is not returning. He says he's been sacked and that nobody at the BBC told him and that... More on that later by the way. more on that later. And that they also offered him a chance to leave by saying he was having, you know, it was a mental health issue and therefore he could sort of resign without it being the accusations against him off for using racist language. And yes, maybe begin with a question from Angela Gledo, who says when allegations have been

upheld, how do they reach that decision? Just as a sidebar, I think what Angela is saying, you know, you keep reading these stories, allegations have been upheld against John DeRoy and Greg Wallace. She says, does more than one person have to say it happened? What about all the allegations not upheld? Is it because no other person corroborated the allegation? Yeah, so listen, this is not a court process. No one's going to go to jail. It's a process where Banerjee and the BBC have to make themselves certain of what happened

and didn't happen, have to make themselves as certain as they possibly can be so they can then act on what's happened. And there were all sorts of allegations. Angela is absolutely right. If an allegation is one person's word against another, difficult to uphold it. You might believe the person, you might absolutely go, I genuinely believe that happened, but we can't prove it. So we can't include that in our upheld things. If, as you say, things are corroborated, it comes from more than one source, it happened publicly. So it comes from a lot more than one source.

If it was documented at the time. Or if somebody said to somebody, I've just gone into his dressing room and he doesn't have any trousers on and he knew I was coming in. Then if you've said that to somebody at the time, then they can they can say, did you say that, you know, so you're trying to do this sort of as much as possible 360 degree process where you're getting all the different. So you're trying to be fair to the people being investigated, of course, because you know, things may not be true, but you're also trying to be fair to the people who are making the allegations and sometimes it's the weight of allegations make you investigate.

Because if a lot of people are saying the same thing, you have to investigate. But when you are investigating, by and large, you have to be as certain as you possibly can be knowing that it could be lawsuits and all sorts of things coming afterwards, you have to be as certain as you can be that you can release a report saying, we believe that these things happen. These are the things that we have upheld. And these are the reasons this person is being fired. And that person can always counter sue for wrongful dismissal or something like that. So you need to have these, this is, you know, it's, it's, it's, it's a sort of employment law. So in terms of the John to road thing, which was allegations of using racist language,

John Turrode says, I don't recall it. I don't believe it happened, he said. But the people who've gone through that report and have talked to people who were there at the time do believe it happened. And by the way, there's all sorts of things that weren't upheld because they couldn't say for certain they believed it happened. But on this particular occasion, it's not gone mad, you know, he used, I think probably the worst racial slur there is, and they found that to be substantively true.

They found evidence that they were happy with that that was true. He is saying, I definitely didn't do it. I certainly can't remember it. But that one was upheld. And there may be further non-upheld, but lying on the record accusations in the same area. That is the key thing about this is we're recording this on a Wednesday and more is going to come out on this story. More people are going to come out and give their version of what happened on this story. The BBC and Banner J,

who are the production company, Mate Masterchef, have found enough evidence that they can go public and say, we believe these things, feel free to sue us if you think you can convince people that it didn't happen. So they're not going public with the things they're thinking, oh, we just heard this, but we can't really corroborate it. They're going public with the things that they go, we believe this can stand up in a

court of law. We believe we have the evidence. We believe we have the people who have witnessed it, who are happy to testify. And so, yes, if it is upheld- You're saying that there were a huge number of allegations, there were dozens of allegations that were upheld against Greg Wallace. Yes. My understanding is this is the only one that's been officially upheld. It doesn't mean it will be the only one that will be officially upheld, but for now this was the only one that's officially upheld. It was serious enough that as an organization, as the BBC, and if I were working at Banner Jay, I would not be comfortable with that person working on a production that I was

on. And so, as you say, they, you know, I think they took John to road aside, this is my understanding of the whole situation, and said, we believe that this happened. We believe that you use this language. He denied it. They said to him, whether this is the BBC or Banerjee, but it was said to him, we will accept if you want to take a year off, you have to do a mandatory training course to understand and accept that this is not something we particularly want in our workplace.

And everyone listening to this works in places and you know, occasionally there's toxicity and it's not great to be around. So they said, you can take a year off, you do a course. That was denied, that was said, no, of course, I'm not gonna do that. I didn't do this in the first place anyway, so why would I ever do this?

They then make the decision that they can't go forward with any new series of MasterChef without him. And again, John Turrode, I think in the Sun said a couple of things. He said, he said, the first I knew about it was I read it in the papers. And that my understanding is that's not true. The first thing he knew about it was when he was told it. And the other thing he said was the BBC said, why don't you just say that you're going to quit because of mental health? That was in the Sun,

I think. And that definitive, I rarely heard more vehement denial from everyone involved that that conversation didn't, that certainly didn't happen. You know, it was the only conversation was, we believe this happened. We will give you a second chance at lifeline, which is you take a year, you take a series off, you go and do something, talk to people who may be persuading you that this is not the way to act in a certain workplace. And he said he was not prepared to do that. That's my understanding of the situation

from speaking to lots of various people involved in this. And we are gonna hear more from everyone in this, I suspect in the next few days. I'm sure we'll hear more from John Turrode. I'm sure we'll hear more from Banerjee and the BBC. But that seems to be the BBC and Banerjee are very comfortable that they're in a legally fairly watertight position that this thing happened and they can defend the evidence they have that it happened. John Turrode is denying it absolutely said it definitely didn't happen. And that's something for I suspect some sort

of different court of law or for the next week or so the court of public opinion and the court of Instagram. Yeah, I don't think you'd be massively looking forward to the Sunday papers if you were either of those two guys because but what they've each tried to do, just talking around this really I suppose, is that they've each tried to get out in front of it by thinking if I do a step, I mean, I would have thought after Greg Wallace's quite slightly idiosyncratic five page Instagram statement, John Troad would think, maybe I'll just go about this a different way. But apparently not. Apparently he's taken a very similar route. Yes. So he, listen, he hasn't suggested that autism caused him to use a racial slur, but

so he's learned something. There's still a day after the Sundays to come up racial slur. But so he's learned something. Still a day after the Sundays to come up with a defense. We've had lots of questions as well about how was this allowed to go on? What was the atmosphere on that set? And I think we spoke before when we spoke about Greg is this is a show that was a big hit for the BBC. It's a show that quite quickly on TV shows, things become quite a closed shop and that the presenters often can be at the head of that closed shop. The presenters are sometimes an exec producer or a series producer. I spoke to somebody who spoke to Greg Wells in 2017, I think, when some of the first allegations

came out. And this person said, I said to Greg, every single thing that happens on a production comes from the top, and you are the top. So this is the culture of this production is coming from you. And interestingly, since that discussion, I think only one of the complaints that was upheld was after that time. So almost all of them were before that time. Someone came in and said to him, this is not acceptable. This is not how we run a television program. This is not how you run any sort of workplace.

And he seemed to have some sort of understanding of that. But if you have two presenters and you have the same production team and you have a hit show and a step before that, you know, the BBC after 10 series or something is not on set. That's one of the absolute key things to remember. If you're doing something like House of Games, someone might come up once a series because they know it's properly run. So the oversight is not particularly there from the BBC.

And there are very few productions who would want that oversight, is the truth. But it does mean that cultures can prevail. And that seems to be what's happened here. If we look at all these allegations and it is... It's that mix between the sort of total, oh, I'm a cheeky greengrocer and I don't believe in hierarchies, but equally, it's such a power, I can't even believe I'm going to say this, but it's such a power move to answer the door with no trousers on. Yes.

And so it's that mix between those two things, and there's a certain type of, I don't want to say man, but certain type of presenter who just doesn't quite understand, but or deliberately doesn't understand what I think is interesting in the case of these two is they were supposed to be that kind of you know double act they were slightly reminded me I think of a sort of you know pair of organized crime gangsters and they would be the the animal and the clever one and and they were maybe they were brothers perhaps.

And John DeRoto always looked like he was going to say, you know, unfortunately my brother has a very bad temper. I should not like him to lose it with you today. Yesterday, he had cause to get annoyed. And then Greg Wallace would just standing there with the Death Star. A bit of shame with something out of those meringues, wouldn't it? Exactly. And yet it's slightly funny how it's very similar, those kind of moves where it's an excess of power and it's not an understanding of your position of responsibility.

And by the way, there's very few people, almost no one's saying, this altered, this changed my life. I couldn't believe what happened to me. This is the most disgraceful thing that's ever happened. But there's plenty of people going, I don't want to work in this environment. And if you run a TV company, if you run a TV show, it's entertainment. That's all it is. You're not saving lives on a war zone. It's entertainment. And if you are being told time and time again, I am uncomfortable working in this environment,

then you get a different presenter. There's no, that's not wokery. That is not, we can't say anything anymore. That is just anyone listening to this who works in works in a particular workplace. That's, you know, this who works in a particular workplace. If someone does it, if they're warned and they do it again. But it's the sense that there might be a critical mass and that finally you don't have to accept it anymore and that maybe lots of other productions will learn something from this particular furore and things will get better across the industry. They're not being thrown in prison. They're simply being told it's probably best if you

don't present a flagship BBC television program anymore. But it's also amazing how so much of this type of behavior comes and people believe themselves to be completely indispensable to a show in which challenge me on this if you like the format is the star Works all around the world. It works in loads of different formats master chef goes large It worked in the original studio version of it, which was Lloyd Grossman You know all it master chef works and works and works and works in loads of different formats. MasterChef goes large. It worked in the original studio version of it, which was Lloyd Grossman. All MasterChef works and works and works and works. They don't even particularly have a chemistry on that show.

There's nothing. When you're watching that show, you're not going, my God, it's like watching Mel and Sue. There's not, you know, there's no- No, they have that thing that I just described. They also have the weirdness of the relationship. It was also so weird. Like, you know, it would always be like,

I love John so much, he's my best man. Even after John DeRote had been his best man, he said, we're not friends. It's just like, there's something really odd is going on here. And so it's proof. We must go on to another question. Next one comes from Stu Hosker, who says, What will the BBC do with previously filmed series of MasterChef that are still due to air, now that Greg Wallace and John DeRote have been sacked following the report's findings? Yeah, so this, I can tell you exactly what's going to happen with, there's three different series. There's MasterChef the Professionals, which is safe because it's Marcus Waring and Monica

Galletti. You then have Celebrity One and the Celebrity One has been filmed, but not due to go out till Christmas so the BBC don't have to make a decision about that for now it is John Turrode and it's Grace Dent. So no decision has been made but the main one is the is the big main series and as people probably know it was presented by John and Greg I think as they got to the semi-final stages the allegations about Greg came out and they replaced him with Anna Hoare from the semi-finals. None of this is Ed, we should just reiterate. They've got this thing in the can basically. And Anna's that wonderful Irish chef, he's brilliant on everything. The feeling at the BBC and the feeling at Banerjee, having talked to everyone

who has been on that show, is they would like to show it because they've spoken to, I think, pretty much every single contestant. The contestants are saying, we would be gutted if this doesn't go out. You know, it's been a huge deal for what they've done, you know, going into MasterChef. It makes careers as well, you know. Completely, how many of them have ended up opening restaurants, have a career from it.

And it's this huge challenge and it goes on for a long time. And absolutely, their skills should be showcased, I think. So I think, well, I'd be fairly confident in saying that the current plan is to show that series. So that show, because again, it's due on quite soon. So that's a decision they have to make quickly. They've made the decision. We're looking at the contestants.

What would the contestants like to happen? And the contestants have said, we would like it to go on air. And if you don't want the BBC to waste money, is like obviously multi-million pounds. Yes we had quite a lot of questions as well about who carries the can for the cost if these programs are shelved and it's actually a slightly tricky one this because normally you would have insurance which says if something happens in between a show being recorded and the show going out the insurance would cover it if there's no way of showing it. However, if we're stood in doubt as to culpability over why it's been cancelled or why it's been canned, it is almost impossible to get an answer from anyone, from anyone, people who

have been in this situation before, as to who would pay for that because this is a substantial amount of money, a whole series of MasterChef, it's in the millions. My instinct would be that Banner J, the production company, would have to carry quite a lot of those costs because I don't think the insurers will. The BBC would carry some of those costs as well. And I think that, I don't think that enters in, by the way, to the decision to show that main series, but that just technical thing for people who were interested in that.

Normally, if the insurance don't pay, then the channel and the production company will team up on work out. But furthermore, the BBC would have to pull up something else in the schedule to replace it and then they've got another whole set. So it ends up being very expensive one way or another for them. Yeah, it really does. But yeah, so Celebrity One, we wait and see what else comes out. The the master chef professionals, that's absolutely fine. And the regular one, the civilian one,

I think is is is going to be shown, which will be interesting. But it's a and they've they've done that because of the every single contestant. I could be proved wrong here. There might be one who says no, but every contestant they're speaking to is saying we would love this show to go ahead. They completely want it to go ahead and you can see why. I suppose we have to say something slightly on the wider BBC thing which is that it's obviously coming, as people always say, there's a moment in every single story that even involves the BBC where it just becomes a sort of referendum on the BBC. And there's obviously been various controversies surrounding the Gaza coverage and sort of various

other things. And there's a sort of sense which I don't think should exist in an organization of such enormity, which is doing so many different things. Obviously, what happens on a cooking show really does have very little at all to do with what happens in terms of Gaza documentary coverage and so on. But there is always a point where it just becomes something you can say, oh, and you know, this now the BBC is in a crisis. Yeah. And to that, I would say, you know, the old thing of the signal and the noise, which is there was a huge amount of noise here, a huge amount of noise and uses a stick to beat all

sorts of people with. And you know, I absolutely get it. But what is the signal? What has actually happened? amount of noise and uses a stick to beat all sorts of people with and you know, I absolutely get it. But what is the signal? What has actually happened? And it is two men have behaved, if we believe the allegations, unacceptably in the workplace. They have been warned, they have been given opportunities to redeem themselves. They have not taken those opportunities.

And so therefore on this particular thing, they are freelance people. And so the company behind it have gone, we would rather you didn't do that. That is all that has happened here. And as you say, nobody here is saying this traumatized me, this ruined my life. They're saying it was unacceptable. They're not alleging criminality or anything like that. Yeah. And again, pretty much every workspace, everyone knows a story about things like this that happen. Someone gets, you know, you get spoken to, you maybe change your behavior. If you don't change your behavior, you're out. I mean, that's but because it's the BBC, because it's television, because it's a big story, it's suddenly this enormous thing.

And nobody is bigger than the format. And that's another question that we have had. What's the future of the brand? Will it be rested again? No, there's no, there's absolutely no need to rest it. The Masterchef is, I cannot begin to tell you how profitable Masterchef is around the world. It's huge in pretty much every territory. It's a behemoth around the world. It is a great show for the BBC. As I say, it's not Ant and Dec presenting this. You know, it's not, you know, suddenly the Saturday Night Takeaway is, you know, has

to be presented by Addison Hammond and Dermot, although they would do a great job. But it's not, this is not the Greg Wallace-John-Tarrow show. It's MasterChef. It's the it's the chef's show. So this is definitively a brand that will keep going and going and going go from strength to strength. And there's there's so many great food presenters. Matt Tebbott is now doing stuff on the on the professionals one, for example, he'd be an amazing host for it. You know, Grace Dent hosted half of the Celebrity One, whether we see that or not, but obviously she can continue to present the Celebrity One very, very easily. So no, you've got three shows, three series a year, and it will absolutely sail on.

Absolutely. MasterChef. I mean, it'll be under a microscope, that's for sure, but it will sail on. So that wasn't an emergency podcast. It was a standalone podcast on a developing live news event. Exactly. And there will be more to come on this at the weekend, I suspect.

Yes. But that's all the information we have at the moment. And I hope that there was some useful info in there. Thank you very much. And tomorrow we will return to regular service with our Q&A episode. Masterchef Rezone. Masterchef Rezone. See you tomorrow.

See you tomorrow.