The Rest Is Entertainment - The nostalgic power of Gladiators and does publishing have a problem with ghost writers?

Episode Date: January 16, 2024

Has Gladiators won the Saturday night ratings war with a splash of nostalgia? Talking of nostalgia, do we need more holographic tours of dead musicians in light of the news that George Michael may well be heading to a stage near you soon? Talking of ghosts, is there an issue in the world of literature with celebrities taking credit for ghost written books? Richard and Marina dig into it all on this episode of The Rest Is Entertainment.  Get our exclusive NordVPN deal here ➼ https://nordvpn.com/trie It’s risk-free with Nord’s 30-day money-back guarantee!  Twitter: @restisents Email: [e-mail] Producer: Neil Fearn Executive Producers: Tony Pastor + Jack Davenport Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Visit fidelity.ca slash all in one. Getting closer to your goals could start today. Commissions, fees and expenses may apply. Read the funds or ETFs prospectus before investing. Funds and ETFs are not guaranteed. Their values change and past performance may not be repeated. Hello and welcome to The Rest Is Entertainment with me, Marina Hyde. And me, Richard Osman. Welcome, welcome. Hi, Marina.

How are you? Yeah, I'm not bad. I'm okay. A lot to talk about this week. Certainly. Did you catch the new gladiators? We were going to talk about some different things and then that came along and absolutely smashed the ratings for a number of different reasons. So I think maybe we're going to talk about that and what it means. What it means, the nostalgia, the Saturday night of it. Like we're a pair of King's College professors saying, I wonder, what does Beyonce mean?

We're also going to talk about dead celebrities. George Michael's estate have registered effectively for live performance again, which means that they must be contemplating a hologram tour and this is how it's been widely interpreted so in the sort of vein of Abba Voyage but with a dead celebrity at the helm of it, we'll have a look at that

And about how much money you can make if you're dead I mean they do, as I say, make a great living A lot of money, look at Van Gogh What else are we going to talk about? else we're going to talk about we're also going to talk about i read an interesting article about celebrity authors which i felt you would have something to say about um and um i think that the top 30 big sellers of 2023 the list of that has come out so we can talk about that we'll combine those two i should look forward to that ever so much but let's let's start with gladiators shall we can you feel the power of the

gladiators i mean i certainly can yeah it's fascinating isn't it because because it was brought back bbc one yes bbc one brought it back everyone says oh why are you rebooting a show why are you bringing back gladiators this is going to be awful they're going to butcher it and from the moment that theme tune starts my wife ingrid was virtually in tears with just the memory of gladiators from from the original because they kept the theme tune the same they kept the format the because they kept the theme tune the same, they kept the format the same, they kept pretty much everything the same.

And when the ratings came in the next day, 6.4 million, which I think Ian Hyland, the great TV critic, said, that's about 15 million in old money. You know, that's a proper big smash hit. And people who started watching it, if you look at the ratings, kept watching it. I suspect they'll keep watching it next week as well so we have an enormous hit on our hands and the quest

well let's talk about the show first because it was a lot of fun and then we'll talk about why it was quite so successful. Presented by Bradley Walsh and his son Barney Walsh I think why they've done that I'm not sure it's for Barney Walsh's presenting skills but I think I suppose what they want to say is, hey, your parents loved this show, but now a new generation can also love it. So I think that whole father-son thing was a sort of nod to really what the show is in lots of ways, which is a chance for lots of people who watched it as kids

and now probably have kids of their own to do the same thing. In a weird way, actually, Netflix did this once with Adam Sandler. They discovered that all the people who used to go out to Netflix did this once with Adam Sandler. They discovered that all the people who used to go out to movie theatres to watch Adam Sandler movies now had kids and were stuck at home and watched Netflix a lot. And when no one else

really wanted Adam Sandler and everyone was passing on his movies, put a huge investment into him because they could see that that algorithm showed that his stuff was really popular. So that kind of nostalgia, the sort of aged audience, has been big for this. Yeah, it really has. And that kind of nostalgia, the sort of aged audience, has been big for this. Yeah, it really has.

And the fact that, yeah, they didn't muck about with it too much. So if you're a parent, firstly, amazing to have something you can watch with your kids. But to have that show and to say to your kids, oh, this is an amazing show, I promise, and for it then to be an amazing show, I think is an incredible treat. Bradley Walsh is a fascinating one so so bradley

and barney are a duo anyway they they do a a travelogue documentary where barney essentially makes bradley do an increasingly extreme series of sports and challenges and it's got the title which is rather a good title breaking dad which is good uh and you know they're a great double act on that and if Bradley Walsh wants to present your show you let Bradley Walsh present your show because the British public

absolutely adore him The presenting isn't having said that of this show a whole massive amount of it really Exactly and it doesn't need to be

and it isn't they don't overplay their part too much we get to the action pretty quickly in and out with a gag and then you know you're straight on to hang tough. But Bradley is

the best paid man on British television by a mile mainly because of the extraordinary success of The Chase and Beat the Chasers and all the other variations of that. He brought Blankety Blank to BBC One, which was a huge hit. I thought at the time that's a huge hit until the

Gladiators numbers came in, which are a a huge hit. I thought at the time that's a huge hit until the Gladiators numbers came in, which are a really huge hit. The documentary with Bardi is absolutely massive. Whatever Bradley Walsh does turns to gold. What I do miss, though, is the sense... John Fashenew. Well, the sense that one of the presenters might have a sort of fling with one of the Gladiators.

After Ulrika and that, you know, that, what was that goofy youngster? Hunter. Hunter she was with. You kind of want that because the gladiators is a sexed up auditorium. It's like the Olympic Village week two swimmers, right? You're off competition. You're hopped up on your own glycogen. And I'm telling you, you are going to get through the IOC's supply of 25,000 free condoms.

That's just what happens, okay? Didn't Grindr crash on the first day of the 2012 Olympics? It's incredible. I've interviewed at various Olympics. I've gone into the Athletes' Village and interviewed quite a few different people about it. And it's actually the swimmers, it's just a huge thing because they're off competition for week two. quite a few different people about it. And it's absolutely, the swimmers, it's just a huge thing because, you know, they're off competition for week two.

Hold on, isn't your daughter six foot eight tall? Hold on, she's 11. We won't get sidetracked by the Athletes' Village, but I always feel that Gladiators should have been a bit like that. And according to Eureka, it was a bit like that. Like, you know, these lively young stars. I slightly wanted the sense that, you know,

one of the presenters might have some, you know, maybe it'll be Mark Clattenburg, because we haven't talked about someone who's resubmitting himself for national treasure status. So Mark Clattenburg plays the role of the referee, which was formerly played by John Anderson. He was the Scot who was a contenders ready, gladiators ready, which Mark Clattenburg does with great relish.

Mark Clattenburg is a former Premier League and elite referee. Much loved. Who brings a certain amount of baggage. I suggest that he is the villain of the show, perhaps. He could be an emerging villain. I noticed, actually, when he put his arm up with the whistle, you see the Clattenburg body art

includes the Euros trophy and the Champions League trophy, both finals of which he has officiated in. Did he win them? Well, as he always says, he tried to not make it about himself. He always used to see the players identified with him. I wonder if the gladiators identified with him. I didn't get a huge vibe of that. He should literally have a tattoo of a whistle and on the other arm some hate mail. Yeah.

Those should be his tattoos. He used to drive a BMW with a number plate CL4TTS, klats. Did he? Yeah. Wow. I mean, he is really enjoying himself in this, isn't he? He's absolutely loving it. Well, he's recently had to flee Egypt after a scandal,

I suggest you Google. His attempt to bring order to match officialdom in Egypt seems to have ended with him having to leave with just a suitcase. I strongly recommend a quick dive into that one. But it's a lovely gig for him. All he does throughout is say, contenders ready, gladiators ready, which he knows is a catchphrase already.

I can see in his eyes as he is saying that, he's thinking, I must be able to monetize this. I know we don't own the catchphrase, but I'm saying it. And he gives it everything. And he's thinking, can I do a contenders ready, Clattenburg ready podcast? Yes. This something or t-shirts. That's what he's thinking. podcast this something or t-shirts that's what he's thinking and then later on viper who i gotta say one of the gladiators outrageous absolutely cheated on the uh on the bridge i was absolutely

fuming which he loved klassenberg loved it because he could get involved well that's where they bring klassenberg in you can see klassenberg thinking that's why you're on the show now it's time for my close-up uh and uh, he disqualifies Viper. I've got to say quite rightly, there was a 17-minute delay as they waited for VAR. Viper was no wolf, though, was he, Richard? He was no wolf. Not yet, anyway. Well, wolf wasn't wolf on the first episode.

No, he wasn't. You're right. He was sheep in the first episodes until he unrobed. It's made by Hungry Bear, which is a production company, not a gladiator. Oh, I'd watch a gladiator called Hungry Bear. All day long. He just holds his tummy

all the time. Every time a contestant comes along, he says, oh, I do like fighting contestants. As if he's got a little honey around his mouth. It's a spin-off show,

the furry version. Call me Hungry Bear. Don't call me Hungry Bear. Don't call me Hungry Bear. Don't do that. That's not a nickname I need. They have cast it so brilliantly, and they haven't forgotten the lessons of the previous gladiators, why we all loved it.

They haven't kind of gone, do you know what, let's update it. Let's be more, you know, knowing. They have got some baddies, Viper being one of them, Legend, who is absolutely my favourite, Viper being one of them. Legend, who is absolutely my favorite, being the other one. And they say, Legend, you've got to have respect for your opponent. And he just goes, no.

I really liked him. He's got over a million followers on Instagram. Already? No, previously. So what's his pedigree, if I may? What's his pedigree? If I may. Hold on, let me check the Kennel Club.

He is a, you know, nutritionist and bodybuilder and personal coach. We've created a nation of this. It's our last great manufacturing industry gym rat. So I think it's great that we've found a sort of outlet and where to use them. And it's great to have them actually do something rather than just get big. Viper is great. Viper slightly was, you know, the previous iteration of Gladiators, which in a lot of ways was way ahead of its time, had

equal representation for men and women, it was very diverse, all that kind of stuff. So they haven't had to change any of that. But you know, the old thing of the slightly racist Gladiator names for some of the black Gladiators like nightshade shadow um saracen yes so the gladiators are brilliantly cast they got as they did previous times some brilliant athletes uh harry akins orite is nitro who's very much my he's he's the kind of you know the golden boy he was just like just kind and thoughtful and lovely and so people for the kids to get behind and fire as well was brilliant they got people for kids to boo. Viper, Legend is very much my favourite. But they didn't change very much about it.

They had a series of games, men and women. You introduce the gladiators. There's a bit of wit in there, a bit of silliness, a bit of pantomime, a bit of WWE. They've got a great end game, which is the eliminator, where all the points you score across the episode give you a head start. And that hasn't changed at all. It's identical. So if you're a parent watching at home, you'll think, oh, yeah, I remember this. This is great.

And if you're a kid watching, you're getting the same experience that your parents did when they watched it. So I think fair play to Hungry Bear for doing it so brilliantly, fair play to the BBC for doing a reboot and doing it very, very well. And I genuinely think that terrestrial TV is having a hell of a year so far. Ideas which have just brilliantly made television and which are bringing people together and bringing people together in a way that non-linear television can't do.

Linear is not dead. And obviously reports of its death are not only exaggerated, but just completely off-beam. And in fact, if you look at what lots of the streamers are going to now start trying to get into, they're going to become more like TV channels. They're going to have much more stuff that is a point of view that you want to be watching at the same time as everyone else.

And free ad-supported television is going to become much more like this. to view that you want to be watching at the same time as everyone else or and fast you know free ad supported television is going to become much more like this so the idea that you know you watch television only when you want and you don't this event television has not gone away at all and if anything the streamers who were nothing to do with it are trying to find ways to get in on it and it's very important to have something in our culture where you can call your kids into the room and you can all sit down and watch i think it's incredibly important and it's something that that have been lost it's great the people uh dan baldwin's the exec on this there's all sorts of brilliant people behind it

are making a show that is designed specifically for people to watch with their families and to bring people together from a personal point of view the thing I like most about it is when I look at that cast, as I say, it's brilliantly cast, loads of great gladiators, all I'm thinking is, oh, a couple of those would be good for House of Games. You know, and anything, anything that widens... Can you please have Venom on House of Games?

Venom? No, hang on, he's not called Venom. I think that's some hangover gladiator from the previous iteration. Hangover is another of the gladiators I think it's Apollo Apollo the kind of floppy

the one who looked like he went to a minor public school yeah yes yes exactly him can you have him on please I think he's called Brideshead yeah he was again you think

I wonder what your story's going to be I want to see his origin story he was bullied at public school and now he's seeking revenge. I want to have all of that. But you see, I would like it if he could have an elevised relationship with somebody on the presenting crew and I just

don't think that's going to happen. Although rule nothing out. Rule nothing out with this show. I genuinely think it would be nice to have a woman co-presenting because it's half men, half women and the audience is going to be very, very mixed as well. I absolutely guarantee we'll have at least one of the gladiators on House of Games. We're filming a new batch in March.

And I guarantee at least one of the gladiators will be on Strictly this year as well. By the way, have you seen the documentary, the origin story documentary about American gladiators on Netflix? No, apparently it's brilliant. It is amazing. It's called Muscles and Mayhem. It is very much an unauthorised biography of this show and it just shows the very origins

of it being set up by, and it was so dodgy and so thrown together and then it sort of accidentally morphed into the show we know today. It's really,

really worth watching. It's, if you were to sit down and think, I wonder what a documentary about the very early days of American Gladiators would be, it is that

it is exactly that, it contains everything you would want it to contain, it contains every character you would want it to contain the footage of the there's a lot going on in Muscles and Mayhem I'll say that, I recommend it, I did a little dive into where some of the former gladiators

are, we spoke already about Wolf didn't we um yes the fact that he was in squid game yes the challenge he was one that he got knocked out in the in the very first round i forgot about that sorry i've forgotten about that but yes i saw um i saw hunter doing interview i don't know he looked almost like he could be a sort of pundit on jeremy vine now he may well be i don't i think yes it's james crossley isn't he i think i think yeah i think he's often on This Morning and stuff. Oh, is he?

Doing diet and fitness advice. Right, okay. That's the thing. Diane Newdale. Yeah. Jet, of course. The wonderful Jet. The lovely.

She's a psychotherapist. She just got married to a woman she met in the supermarket. And every picture you see of her, she looks very, very happy, which is nice. Because there's a generation who wish nothing but happiness for Jet. Ace is about to be ordained as a Church of England cleric. Shut the front door. He calls himself a gladiator of the gospel. Oh, I've got to get into that one.

He is smiting all around. But the most famous one, Eunice Huthart. Yes, but she was a contestant. Imagine remembering the name of someone as a contestant. She was a contestant. Then she became a gladiator. Yeah. And then she became a stunt double.

So she's Angelina Jolie, stunt double. You know, she works on all the big films. She is godmother to Angelina and Brad's child, Shiloh. Wow. That's a bit like jury service, though. I think they've got so many, everyone gets called up at some point. Are you not? Poor old you.

Am I not? Do you know I'm not? Not with my history with Angelina. She's not. I mean, honestly, Brad would not have it. I guarantee you that. Can I say one final thing, which is I tried. I'm always fascinated by music.

And one of the lovely things they've done on this show is they haven't messed about with the music, the theme music. You know, do you have the speed and the skill to be a gladiator? And I was trying to, I thought, who's written that? Is it Hall & Oates? Who is it? And it's a guy called muff murfin has written it i couldn't find anything about it anywhere and as always podcasts help you out and there's a thing called glad pod which is a podcast all about gladiators uh jet hosts it and they talked to muff murfin and he was saying that there's a lovely man called john K Cooper who's one of the big old school entertainment producers at ITV, he did Blind Date and

all that stuff and he'd been tasked with making an English version of this and he knew Muff Murfin who wrote jingles and he knew that Muff had done the jingle for Capital Radio's Eye in the Sky, the helicopter traffic and John loved that so much he said to Muff, would you write a thing

to Gladiators? So Muff went away flew over to Dallas, recorded it with some unknown session singer and it's still exactly the same one now, it's so great. That's fantastic I like any theme tune that explains the show within the theme tune, I've got a weakness for. So if you haven't watched it

and you've got kids, if you haven't watched it and you used to watch it, I think it's really really worth a watch it's I think it's really, really worth a watch. It's a lot of fun. It's very silly, and it's exactly the same as it used to be. And we'll talk more, I suspect, in another week about reboots and why there are so many

and what that means and channels playing it safe. Well, we might talk a bit more about nostalgia in our next item, which is dead celebrities. I mean, that's the ultimate nostalgia, isn't it? I mean, yes. So development of sort of holographic technology and things like that, based on things like the ABBA voyage, which is obviously a hugely successful kind of concert property, really.

George Michael's estate, having said not that long ago that they weren't going to get into this, have now registered saying that activity at the group will broaden in the next one to three or years to include live public performances and funnily enough for a TV thing that I worked on I ended up doing a bit of research into sort of dead celebrities and there are there is a whole agency in America a guy called Michael I think he's called is he called Michael Rossler Mark Rossler And he's got an agency called CMG which essentially deals with

dead celebrities. Does CMG stand for Corpse Management? Yeah, I mean that's brilliant, yes. I mean, I think you're dealing with a certain type of person let's put it that way. He claims to manage Ingrid Bergman, Betty Davis, Billie Holiday. And to some,

to all intents and purposes, sort of does, there is a huge, huge, this is a multi, multi-billion dollar industry a year already. What they're called is Delebs. That is the formal industry term for it. D-E-L-E-B as Delebs. I mean, these people make go, I mean, James Dean, he made three films in his life, and he does not start working now. I can't remember. I mean, he's done McDonald's adverts, Chrysler adverts, so many adverts. Recently, not that long ago, they actually said they're making a Vietnam film in which they couldn't find anyone to cast who would be as good as James Dean. So they were casting him and it became quite a big sort of bone of contact.

Lots of people saying this is really this is going too far. And in the end, it has been cancelled, but it will happen. In fact, you know, a big, I think it's interesting. Another thing that happened this week is a sort of comedian who specialises in AI dropped an AI George Carlin comedy special, which, again, has caused quite a lot of controversy. And he's made it very clear that this is just his sort of AI version. So he's done his material through George Carlin, who's the great old American comedian's voice.

Can I say that it falls short of the original? Yes, it does. And actually something that his daughter, something that she really condemned this and said, humans are so afraid of the void that we can't let what has fallen into it stay there. I think that's quite interesting. It's just for money that this thing is happening.

And I know that lots of people say, yes, but it's wonderful to be able to see George Michael again. Well, I'm, you know, I'm sorry, people die and this is what happens. And I don't, I'm slightly against the, the ABBA thing is a different thing. They're all alive and it was, it's more of a sort of concept show in lots and lots of ways. And it's got a sort of story to it and it's a different kind of thing.

But kind of reviving celebrities after their death is half of martin luther king's estate is controlled by some of the children and and the others don't have control this guy the one i was talking about cmg corpse management group he licensed him to um sell dodge trucks once in a super bowl advert not that long ago i mean is this what this what Martin Luther King would have wanted? I have a dream. Off-road utility. I'm all for people being allowed to stay dead. And obviously Star Wars have done it.

You've had Peter Cushing was sort of revived from Rogue One and I think one of the later ones. Carrie Fisher. Carrie Fisher, obviously. And you're going to see it more and more. It was a big, big bone of contention in the SAG-AFTRA, the Screen Actors Guild strike, which is, you know, actors feel that AI is a sort of existential threat to them. And I think that the deal they got,

I can see why lots of them aren't even happy. And they do feel that sooner rather than later, their images will be used in this way. There's also a sort of old celebrities are approached by these groups and sign, perhaps elderly and infirm, sign away their future rights while they're still alive for a sum now. And I think it's a very complicated area, but it's an increasingly lucrative one.

And it's happening more and more in music as well. Dylan sold his catalogue for 400 million. Bowie, after his death, his catalogue was sold for $250 million. You know, it's a huge amount of money in it. Elvis still makes over $100 million every year. He's normally the top. This year will be a big year. But do you know what?

Always from Graceland. Graceland is where he makes almost all his money. The theme park and the merchandise. It's literally his house. And it's not that enormous. He's like a North London couple who bought in the 80s. His house is making him all his money. But even Jeff Beccara, who was the drummer from Toto,

he sold his publishing rights. He passed away many years ago, but his publishing rights were sold for $25 million. There's an awful lot of money in old music. But going back to Abba Voyage for a moment have you seen it yes I have I mean I thought it was magnificent it felt like an entirely different form of art yes exactly but I think that that's a that is separate I think to some of these things which is just trying to sort of monetize the dead person I think they you know

they were all they collaborated on it they had this idea they didn't want to be old on stage, all sorts of things but I don't think it's the same as sort of reviving people in this way often without their consent. Simon Fuller said he came up with the idea for Voice, he's not involved in it but I know he had early discussions when he saw the Tupac hologram

and thought, do you remember the answer? And thought, hold on a minute I think that when you go and see that ABBA thing, I was talking to my brother, my brother has an interesting view. He says, you know, when we think about Mozart and Beethoven, that's the canon of classical music. We don't need to see Beethoven and Mozart play it. I agree.

Just anyone can do it. And he said, look, the music of the 60s and 70s and 80s is canon now. And it's going to be around forever and ever and ever. So if I'm George Michael's estate and who clearly love him a great deal, but to send George Michael around the world and to let him sing for fans again, I don't mind it. I think there's something in our culture that just can't handle the end of things in this way. I think that it's really significant to me that in Marvel movies, they've sort of invented the multiverse

or any character can come back to life really. And they've done that. And as a result, people are just not used to, they can't really deal with endings. There's sort of beginnings, middles, new beginnings. And there are no stakes in the same way because if you remove the idea of death as final and things like that then you what you're removing in a large extent is the kind of greatest

stakes in types of drama and things like that there's also another thing which is if you're a producer or an executive the hardest thing to deal with is the talent the one thing about dead talent is they're easier to deal with i I bet this guy loves his books. He's got the easiest client book. Occasionally you get someone like Michael Jackson, you're thinking, all right, well, that makes things a little bit difficult. Yeah, but he's not getting five calls a week from Ingrid Bergman. No.

Is he? Yeah. I bet she didn't like where she got sat at the awards. None of that. You're not having any of this. She's been airbrushed incorrectly. He's got the easiest clients in the world. His Book of the Dead.

And also what it means is that the fans who might wish to depict their fallen idols in any kind of way are actually at the mercy of really aggressive entertainment lawyers who say no well hang on we own the rights to that you can't do that you can't make a tribute the some of the king family or some of the king family estate rather have charged millions of dollars for having statues put up to him. But we're happy to license for the Dodge commercial, whereas other members of the family are really against it. But I have to say, I don't think it's a positive. Once you know that Kiss, the rock band Kiss, are, of course, doing a holographic tour. The most shameless monetizers in the whole,

almost, I think probably in rock history, I don't think there's any, they even had a coffin, a Kiss branded coffin once, the Kiss casket. Wow. Gene Simmons said, I love living, but this makes the alternative look pretty damn good.

Oh, that's good. I'm sure after his own death, he'll have sewn it up so that no one will be able to make any more money. He'll have got the last penny while he's still alive but perhaps that's what we should order you can't take it with you all I'm hearing though is that Kiss are going to do a hologram concert which

you're going to go to aren't you? Of course I am I'm absolutely fully in favour of it but then there's people like Tolkien made half a billion dollars he sold his rights were sold for half a billion dollars the year before so if you're the relatives of somebody with a great back catalogue of music or a great canon of literature,

I don't know what you'd do if someone offers you half a billion and you think, well, it might mean that my great-grandad at some point is in an advert for Olivetti. But half a billion dollars is a lot of money. I've been dealing recently with the Agatha Christie organisation. It's her great-great-grandson, James, I think he runs that. And that's the way to do it. You know, he clearly cares about Agatha Christie

and he cares about the legacy and he cares about the work. And, you know, they do very, very interesting things. So, you know, I think there's ways and means of doing it right. I think the big thing is going to be movies where you're going to be able to have Robert De Niro and Clint Eastwood in movies for the next 50, 60, 70 years. You're going to be able to have whoever you want in any movie. I was talking to someone who said,

you can put yourself in Back to the Future. Yeah, well, this is what a lot of actors had a big problem with. First of all, the idea that you couldn't find anyone other than James Dean for this Vietnam movie. Harry Styles, surely. But you're feeling that you're going to be done out of work and why wouldn't you be and that's it's sort of existential for the actors and that's why i think they're going to have to go back to the table on ai but also everything i guess that deals up in three years but everything everything is existential

for actors really well isn't it but yeah this is about i do i genuinely think this is a bad one i genuinely think however gently gently they're pushing things at the moment, just bit by bit they're going to put their foot in the door and there's going to be people in films who don't really exist and there's going to be people in films who work there in the room. Well, this is why they got the deal. They got the deal. The actors and the writers got the deals in the two big strikes that happened last summer,

a big part of which were both strikes was AI. They got the deals because it's just not quite good enough yet for the studios to be using it. But believe me, as soon as it is, you'll have to be back at that table and you won't be getting anything like that deal anymore. Shall we take a break? Let's take a break. is brought to you by Fidelity Investments Canada. Make investing simple. Fidelity's all-in-one ETFs are designed to do just that. In fact, Fidelity does the heavy lifting, including rebalancing these ETFs to help navigate changing market conditions. Visit fidelity.ca slash all-in-one.

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Make the most of it at Best Western. Welcome back. We've just been Googling Apollo during the break, the gladiator. And he did go to minor public school. He went to school in Barnard Castle, Richard, which hopefully he will supersede Barnard Castle as the reason for which we currently know it to be famous. I used to love the Barnard Castle days. They were the easiest gag in the world

any time anything like that was mentioned. Yeah. Yeah, but no longer. Come on, Apollo, you revitalised that brand. We are now going to talk about celebrity authors because I read an article this weekend, a big article about celebrity authors. First of all, the list the most um popular 30 authors of

2023 came out richard you are extremely near the top of it i hope you already know this um but um also there was an article about celebrity authors and whether they're a sort of bad thing in general for publishing um and i'm pretty sure you'll want to make a distinction between children's celebrity authors and adult celebrity authors uh hit me with your knowledge on this because i'm not quite sure what i feel i noticed you were quoted extensively in the article which you know i and i agreed with all the things you said but in general i slightly do feel that sort of thing that a lot of people feel particularly in the children's writing space which is that books book deals given to celebrities um to write children's books

and they haven't really shown any other previous interest in writing at all and it becomes an extension of the brand. It's just another thing they do. They might have a fashion line, they might have a series of children's books. It's keeping other potential authors off the shelves. Yeah, I agree, absolutely. I mean, I'm often asked about it, of course I am. And I've always, I've been lucky, but I think people tend not to lump me in.

I think people understand that, you know, that I've always been a writer and that, you know, I wrote the book without telling anyone I was doing it and all that. You know, I didn't go out looking for a book deal. I knew you would have done that. No, there's very few authors on this top 30 list that I've read, but you were one of them. And I don't think of you as in the same space as quite a lot of these other ones who, e.g., used to be in McFly. And the article, if you want to have a go at Tom Fletcher,

you come through me. Okay? If any member of McFly, if you have a problem with any of them, you've got a problem with me. Anyway, we will move on to McFly in another episode. I'm sure they're lovely. I haven't read the books.

If you have not read The Dinosaur That Pooped Christmas. Now, there's a distinction made in the article, which is a really good article by John Self, which is a pseudonym, I think, in The Guardian. And there are some celebrity authors, of course, you know, I put myself on that list, Bob Mortimer, Dawn French, who are writers. Yes. And Graham Norton, Ruth Jones. And if you're a writer at some point, you're going to write a novel.

I mean, you just are because you're a writer and you get to the stage in life where you've got a bit more time on your hands. You've got hopefully a few more things in your head that you want to say. So you write a novel and you do it yourself and you give it to a publisher and they read it and they go, this is a good novel. We're going to publish it. There's obviously an advantage in having a public profile when you go to promote it. But there's not an advantage when you're trying to sell it. You have to write the book. And I have to say that, you know, in a pretty atomized culture, publishing is an industry like anything else.

And it has to survive. And bringing in people who have followings already is a way of making that happen. And it doesn't necessarily mean if people come through the door of a bookshop that they're going to choose those books but those names might get people through the door through the door uh there's on the other extreme there's a group of people shirley ballas is a good example the strictly judge who are very open about you know going and say i've got an idea for a novel i'm i'm not going to write it but i would love it to be written you know who credit their ghost right, who talk about it incredibly openly.

The book comes out, the public can work out whether they want to buy that and read that or not on the strength of the story and all of those things. Now, the interesting bit in the article and the interesting bit in the industry is there is a middle ground of celebrities who have written books that they haven't really written and who don't really admit to it. The clues are all there. Everyone in the industry knows, by the way, because any time a celebrity is pitched to you,

they need a ghostwriter and they come to agents for the ghostwriter. So people know what's going on there. Now, I'm happy that there's a world in which Bob Mortimer and Ruth Jones are writing novels because they write great novels in Dawn French. You know, I grew up... They're writers.

They're writers. I loved the novels of Ben Elton when I was, you know, back in the day. You know, it's Stephen Fry. Hugh Laurie wrote an amazing novel called The Gun Seller, which he never followed up. He was so good. He's so good at everything. And he just said, I hated doing it so much. I'm never going to do it again.

I think he won a prize for it and everything, I mean he can he's really good at music, obviously he's fantastic, he's obviously brilliant at acting, I mean he is a real He wrote for Oxford didn't he? He could have been a gladiator called Worcester

so I think that there are going to be celebrities who write novels and if you read those novels and you don't like the first one you're not going to read the second one you're not going to read the third one and so you know that's always going to be part of the industry and that's going to make money for the industry but you know the reason Hugh Laurie didn't write another one is it's really hard yeah it's it's so painful and so difficult creatively listen there's much harder jobs but creatively it's one of the hardest if you're just having some lame idea and getting a ghostwriter to do it. And I really object to that.

I think that's taking work and shelf space from people who are far, far more talented. And just because you're a good judge on a reality show or something like that, why on earth should you have this other thing? If you can't do it yourself, fine, have a memoir and someone will ghostwrite that. And I hope you acknowledge them when you do it. But I just think it's genuinely dreadful and I just think it actually makes the market more and more sort of moronic really. I think it just lowers the tone,

lowers the intellectual standard. If you don't have people, artists creating their own work, not only does it shut people out, but not this thing of a rising tide lifts all boats. I actually think it pushes the culture down into the mire. And I think some of the stuff on the shelves is real rubbish and there's no need for it to be there. And I think publishers should stop doing it. Well, this is what I think.

It's been a series of, you know, my world is crime and thriller. And there's been a series of celebrity written crime and thriller things this year. And it's really hard to write those books. And there are people there who have not written their books. Now, the irony is they're not sending any copies. They haven't been hits. You know, I've sold copies. Richard Coles wrote copies, but he was writing when I was writing.

There was no bandwagon jumping there. He wanted to write and he did write and people have read them and liked them and gone back for the second one. But almost all of the headline celebrities, people they've got to write crime books, have not sold any copies. And so I would say to people in publishing, if people are listening, one hopes they are,

if you currently have a deal on your desk where an agent has come to you with a celebrity or you've gone to an agent and said, could they write a crime book or could they write, you know, whatever it is you want them to write, don't do it. If you're going to pay them £100,000, take that £100,000, split it into three and give it to three people who are great young writers who need money to write a novel, who want to give up the day job for a bit to write a novel, just do that. Absolutely guarantee you're more likely to have a real hit book if you

do that chasing this ridiculous thing of celebrity is absurd look at the numbers of last year just look at every single book that came out that was a celebrity novel and look at the numbers don't look at the headline numbers of the people in the top 30 look at the big numbers that long tale of publishing where books come out and they absolutely disappear. And you paid a fortune for it. You paid a fortune for it because it sounds good in a meeting. And don't allow yourself to be treated as some kind of brand extension. Just have a bit of self-respect.

I mean, there are certain people on this list that I think, you know, I'm not quite sure having looked at the earlier children's, but why Geri Halliwell has been given another book deal. I mean, I loved her in The Spice Girls, but she's now a sort of bit part and drive to survive and doing very well. She doesn't need this. Jamie Oliver, who has spent a couple of decades saying to everybody, I've never even read a book, has now written one. written one and I'm not sure that taking away from somebody else he's got he's got a huge sort of multi-format lifestyle brand all sorts of different things does he need the books as well and do they really need to be part of it I really think there is a limited amount of shelf space marketing budget all those sorts of things and it should go to younger people because in the end your industry will eat itself if you keep doing that. That's exactly right.

And, you know, as you say, listen, the list of the top selling authors last year came out. And anyone in publishing, also anyone, if you're sitting writing a book now, I think it's impossible for me to sort of sell copies.

There's some great names on this list. Number, so, well, J.K. Rowling is number three. She wasn't a celebrity. She just sat down and worked her ass off and wrote the first book and sold it. Julia Donaldson's number one. Julia Donaldson is number one, the children's author, which is great.

I mean, she's got 400 books and they all keep selling year after year after year after year. Colleen Hoover is number four. Now, Colleen Hoover was a care worker in America who self-published online, got a little bit of traction from that, got a little bit more traction, sold it to a physical book publisher, and is now the best selling author in the whole world. And you know, darling of TikTok and all of these things. I mean, I don't really read books like this, isn't all thing to say. Jeff Kinney, who does Diary of a Wimpy Kid, is number seven. He was a cartoonist who did his stuff online, did web stuff. And again, just a couple of people started picking up on it, and then he became one of the biggest authors in the world. Lee Child is number

eight. He was sacked from a job in television. Sounds familiar. And, you know, said, well, I'm going to write the Reacher novels, and did it. Almost everybody on this list, if you go down the list, Bonnie Garmis wrote her first book in the 60s, Lessons in Chemistry. Lessons in Chemistry is an unbelievable phenomenon. It's already been made into a TV limited series. Alice Oseman is on the list, number 12.

She's a young British writer who wrote the Heartstopper series. Again, almost everyone on this list. Lisa Jewell is on this list. She worked in fashion retail, got fired, and a friend of her better, she couldn't write a book so she wrote three chapters, and now she sells millions of books all around the world. That was Ralph's Party, the first thing she did, which was huge.

So if you look on this list, there are hardly any celebrities. In the children's space, there are. David Walliams is there, Tom Fletcher from Fly is in there. But in the adult space, in the top 30, there's not, I mean, I'm on it, I have to, that's the elephant in the room. And, but you know, I hope that, you know,

I've proved myself over four books that I'm an author. But there aren't any others in there. There aren't any others in there. What are on the list are a huge series of people who sat at home, wrote something thinking no one's going to read it, and then got picked up. And that's where most hits come from. Gabriela Zevani wrote Tomorrow and Tomorrow and Tomorrow. It's her 10th novel, and that's a worldwide smash. So there's lots of articles about celebrity authors

and stuff like that. So to publish, as I would say, stop doing the ones that are ghostwritten or put that ghostwriter's name on the cover. It's outrageous. And the whole industry knows it. All the other authors know whose stuff is ghostwritten. Everybody does.

Do you slag it off at the festivals? Of course. Well, because it's really hard to write. And writers talk about they're in the middle of a job and you get someone swanning in who you just think, oh, you don't appear troubled by the creative process particularly do you and so of course you slag them off so publishers stop doing it uh and to anyone sitting at home thinking no one's ever going to read my stuff just keep at it because there's a whole series of names on this list

which are the the top 30 best-selling uh authors in the uk across the whole year it's a it's a tough list to get onto. There's a whole series of people here who just sat down at home and did it. And who are new names in lots of ways, which I think is really interesting. Because the sort of old heritage names, as it were, you knew you would say, obviously, Agatha Christie, J.K. Rowling, someone who's fully, fully established for much longer. I suppose Julia Donson in her own way, Stephen King, Tolkien. But other than that, you've got lots and lots of new names coming into the mix, sometimes with

the first book, sometimes with... And I think that is encouraging. Listen, the main takeaway is I beat J.K. Rowling. That's the main takeaway. But I got beaten by Julia Donaldson. So that's a nice position to be in, I would say. Should we do a couple of recommendations? I want to recommend something that we watched over the weekend. You know when you just randomly hit upon something on Netflix? We watched this thing. It's a two-part documentary about a crime in Australia

called Last Stop Larimer. It's a little town. It's got 11 residents and there's a murder. And it's a documentary made by the Duplass brothers. And it's so brilliant. We talked on the question and answer thing

about when is it okay to do true crime stuff and when is it exploitative. And this, I think, is the absolute perfect example of when it's okay, because it's such an incredible portrait of a way of life and of a group of people and of human nature. And it's told in such a beautiful way.

But at the same time, there's a crime at the heart of it and there's extraordinary extraordinary population of that size funnily enough i was talking to someone the other day who was explaining to me about a place she went to in alaska um it's a city which qualifies as a city by their standards there are 48 residents and 17 of them are on the local council and it changes all the time wow i just thought well i mean that not not hopefully not such tragedy but i thought that is a real sitcom isn't it just yeah on on governance just yeah so if you last stop laramore i'd really really recommend it what's that on it's on netflix and it's laramore is the name of the little town. I think it's L-A-R-I-M-A-H. But yeah, it's unlike anything I've seen before.

You absolutely get sucked in. You have opinions on every single person who appears on screen. That's for sure. Well, speaking of which, in the fictional space, I finished something called The Curse, which is on Paramount+. I'm sorry, that might not be everybody's streaming service streaming service however it's got Emma Stone and the brilliant Nathan Fielder the comedian who wrote it with this with Benny Safdie who's also in it and it is I mean it's a real Marmite show I talked to a lot of people some people who just really couldn't get

along with it but Emma Stone is totally fantastic I'm going to go and see her in Poor Things this afternoon. And I think it's very odd and it's really worth having a look at. It's just a very odd way of making comedy. But it's sort of comedy of excruciation and cringe, but it's unusual. And it becomes something weirder, but I won't say any more than that. But anyway, it's called The Curse and it's screening in the UK on Paramount+. So The Curse and Last Stop Larimer. We're going to do another question and answer session

coming out on Thursday, is that right? Yes, very good. All your questions are so good. Do please keep them coming. The rest is entertainment at gmail.com. There's some great questions this week as well. There's so many. We're going to have to get round to them all eventually

because they're all very high quality. So gladiators, dead celebrities and ghostwritten books. That was a lot of fun. We'll see you all on Thursday. See you then. Bye. Bye.