The Rest Is Entertainment - ⁠The Truth Behind ITV’s Daytime Cull

Episode Date: May 26, 2025

How will ITV's brutal re-scheduling of daytime affect the industry? Who is masked singer that's dominating the UK and US charts? Why is Netflix's targeting toddlers in their race to market dominance? Richard Osman and Marina Hyde look at the devastating cuts that ITV have made to their daytime schedule, seeing beloved shows cut and hundreds of jobs culled. Can traditional broadcasters turn the tide, or is it the end of Lorraine? Genre-bending band Soft Token are storming the charts on both side of the Atlantic, the pair explore one of the most unlikely hitmakers of 2025. Finally, we revisit the streaming wars as a new battlefront has opened for the attention of pre-schoolers, what impact will Netflix's aquirement of Sesame Street and Ms. Rachel have on YouTube? Recommendations: Marina: The Wizard of the Kremlin, by Giuliano da Empoli (Book) Richard: Conclave (Film) The Rest Is Entertainment AAA Club: Become a member for exclusive bonus content, early access to our Q&A episodes, ad-free listening, access to our exclusive newsletter archive, discount book prices on selected titles with our partners at Coles, early ticket access to future live events, and our members’ chatroom on Discord. Just head to therestisentertainment.com to sign up, or start a free trial today on Apple Podcasts: apple.co/therestisentertainment. The Rest Is Entertainment is proudly presented by Sky. Sky is home to award-winning shows such as The White Lotus, Gangs of London and The Last of Us. Visit Sky.com to find out more For more Goalhanger Podcasts, head to www.goalhanger.com Assistant Producer: Aaliyah Akude Video Editor: Kieron Leslie, Charlie Rodwell, Adam Thornton Producer: Joey McCarthy Senior Producer: Neil Fearn Head of Content: Tom Whiter Exec Producers: Tony Pastor + Jack Davenport Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Refreshingly simple. What's better than a well marbled ribeye sizzling on the barbecue? A well marbled ribeye sizzling on the barbecue that was carefully selected by an Instacart shopper and delivered to your door. A well marbled ribeye you ordered without even leaving the kiddie pool. Whatever groceries your summer calls for, Instacart has you covered. Download the Instacart app and enjoy zero dollar delivery fees on your first three orders. Service fees, exclusions and terms apply. Instacart, groceries that over deliver. Hello and welcome to this episode of The Rest Is Entertainment with me, Marina Hyde.

And me, Richard Osmond. Hello, everyone. Hello, Marina. We're in different countries again. You remain in Italy in a place of sophistication and culinary charm. Si, si, si, va bene, va bene. I'm in Bologna now. And I remain in the basement at Spotify. Listen, it's sort of a dream factory. Have you been having delicious food? Yeah, lovely food. And we did a big event last night in a huge library in Bologna, which is great fun.

The Italians have gone nuts for We Solved Murders, which is really, really lovely. That's the book, not the concept. Oh, that's fantastic. The look of the title in Italian is so cool. There's something about that cover. The Italian cover is Italian is so cool. There's something about that cover. The Italian cover is very, very cool. Also, I have a present for you,

which I'm gonna give to you after the after break, but I think you're going to like. Oh my God, but I can't wait. You have to wait, don't I? Yeah, you do, I'm afraid. That's just the way you're running it. And not only do I have a present for you, Marina, I have a present for Thursday Murder Club fans,

which is on Thursday, the very, very first trailer for the Thursday Murder Club film is being released. If you want to see it a bit early, you can follow my newsletter. If you go to Instagram or Twitter, it's in the bio, you sign up, you'll see it an hour before everybody else. But yeah, the first trailer, the teaser trailer is out on Thursday, Netflix releasing the first trailer. Oh my gosh, that's exciting. I love a trailer. So you get to see all of those amazing actors playing those roles in that trailer. So it's on Thursday, you sign up to the newsletter if you look in any of

my bios. I'm already signed up to a newsletter. Well, you're going to see it an hour early then. So can you actually just email it to me so I can see it before even then? But okay, we'll talk about it after. Oh, yeah, and get sued by Netflix. Great idea. Like Christmas morning, looking out the window until your grandparents arrive, you're gonna have to wait. What are we talking about today? Okay, we're talking about what's happening at ITV. There have been cuts in sort of daytime

morning and we're going to talk a little bit about what's behind that and what it means. And channel four as well. We're talking about in that. We're also going to talk about, now either you've heard of this lady, in which case I think you're going to be interested or you haven't, in which case prepare to be informed, we're going to talk about Ms Rachel, the huge YouTube star who's now a huge Netflix star. And we're going to be talking a bit about YouTube and Netflix within that. And we're also going to be talking about Britain's unlikeliest ever music success story. I would say there's a British band who just had a UK and US number one album, which is

incredibly rare. And I would say they're an unusual proposition. So lots of interesting things to talk about. But shall we begin? All you're thinking about is your present. I am thinking about my present. I can see that. But let's begin with ITV.

So ITV, daytime, essentially they have a block in the morning ITV, which is Good Morning Britain, Lorraine, This Morning and Loose Women, which has been going for a very, very long time. Takes them from 6am to 1pm. Made by production teams which cross over an awful lot. Made in the same studios. So it's a real block of programming that has existed for a very, very long time, but it is about to be cold. There's going to be 220 redundancies, which is a huge amount. And it is another symbol of what's happening to our television and the terrestrial broadcasters having to cut their cloth according to the advertising revenues they're getting. So it's a real watershed moment I think for British television production.

It's a watershed moment but it's been coming for a long time really in the sense of that block of television in the day which you described. The price of producing this stuff goes up. The viewership basically goes down. In some ways, you know, it's a commercial television thing and it's relatively easy to understand. And the advertising money, it's interesting, the advertising money is sort of flat to slightly low from talking inside, but you get eaten by inflation every year. But this is the same in all genres to some extent, which is, you know, just to pick another one. Drama used to cost £600,000 for an hour of drama on, say, ITV, and it now costs a million. But people watch dramas. They do that more as they do entertainment, reality, sports.

So put very simply, you want to do more of those and you're going to have to take the money from elsewhere. Speaking within ITV, to some extent, they felt that... The other thing is, whilst in some ways it's simple, that sort of commercial television proposition, equally ad sales are really weirdly complicated and the way advertising is sold on television is complicated. But they discovered that if ratings go down from what they are now, even 30%,

you don't necessarily lose ad sales money because you've got the same pool of people watching these things all the time. And it's a different kind of advertising proposition. It's sorry to be talking about advertising, but advertising for undermodels, this is how it works. A different kind of audience is watching at that time in the morning and you might advertise bread or loo paper or whatever it is. But you do want more money for the programs in which you can sell cars and makeup and those sort of things. By that sort of virtue,

that morning schedules become very, very expensive and they basically want to do it for about half. Well, that's the interesting thing because funnily enough, I think the ratings thing is a red herring because actually these shows rate very well is the truth and GMB is a success story in rating terms. I mean it gets about 700,000 which doesn't sound like a lot but it's for GMB and it's on the up and throughout the whole day, throughout that whole morning Lorraine this morning, Loose Women, they're all

getting around that 600, 700,000 mark which is as you say when you know exactly who's watching this show because it's been on for a very very long time it's actually very useful to advertisers. However, ITV as a whole have a lot less money. And so what they're trying to do, I think, is protect those ratings. So we're at the stage now where we're cutting off healthy limbs in British television, which is a terrifying place to be. Now, to sum up exactly what they're doing, Lorraine and Loose Women, which are on essentially 52 weeks a year, are now coming down to 30 weeks a year, and they're extending GMB as well to cover that.

And of course, there's huge cost savings there because GMB is one team, and if they're suddenly doing an hour more television, that's saving you money. It's one of the rare kind of plus points for British television daytime. It does have a stable and very loyal audience. You know, it is an audience that advertisers can rely on. And yet they are having to share 220 jobs out of 440. It's half the workforce going, you know, in every single area and every single one of these shows.

And it feels like a real harbinger to me because as I say, these are not failing television programs. These are not television programs that have lost their luster. These are television programs that the people working on care for, that the audiences care for. And suddenly half the people losing their jobs. But at the same time, I'm not quite sure what else ITV can do. No, I'm afraid I don't think there is anything else they can do. I would caution against calling it cutting off healthy limbs simply because I would say that sometimes it enables them to exist for much longer. In a funny kind of way, it's a bit like print, which we've talked about before.

It's going to carry on much longer than people think. But if you look at what happened with something like, I was just thinking recently, okay, something that happened with something like Newsnight, again, it's got a very loyal audience. They completely savaged the budget, you know, so they couldn't do expensive films, it became shorter. But it looks a lot perkier and the ratings are up 30% across the seven days. The idea that sort of breakfast is dead as a, someone could still do something very splashy with the mornings, as in a presenter.

We could still get someone who could come on to, I don't know, GMB or something and really do something that goes viral almost, you know, to some extent like Piers Morgan did, but there are other people who could still do that. I mean- Two words, Richard Madeley. Well- Every time he opens his mouth on that show, it goes everywhere. Madeley's one thought. I have to say, there's someone who is very, very brilliant. And if he

were not, I mean, I suppose this is a behind the scenes podcast, so I can tell you what people say on TV about Nick Ferrari, which is, I think he's got a look for radio. But I tell you what, Nick Ferrari, well, whatever your thoughts on him, he's very, very brilliant at that job. And if he was doing GMB, then you can be sure it would be a sort of more hardline, more likely to go viral thing every day. And again, we're talking repeatedly, aren't we, about viral clips, which tells you a lot about I think he probably gets more money for less work on his radio show. Sure, but there's something about TV that people still want to be on it, isn't there? I'm not saying it is him, by the way, because it could be someone completely different and it could

be someone, you know, he wouldn't mind me saying much younger, but somebody could still grab it and do something with that slot for DeafNet, I think. Are you absolutely certain he wouldn't mind you saying that? It feels to me like I'd mind it if you said that about me. I think they'd be a lot younger than me as well, so this is, you know, whatever, we'll have to be realistic. I'd feel like if someone said to me, you're too old to play football for England, that's fair enough. If someone said to me, you're too old to present GMB, I might be like, ah, am I? It's a possibility. By the way, I think he would be brilliant at it. I think he would be brilliant at it. So I'm just saying it could be someone like him. It could be someone different. Somebody could still grab that slot.

Yeah. And the thing is, you know, breakfast TV still is big, you know, BBC is still getting over a million at breakfast. And it's a lot and very, very little on British TV these days gets a million even in the evenings. Shall I tell you the shows that the daytime shows that get a million? It's a vanishingly small number. So on BBC, BBC Breakfast gets over a million. We then dip under a million for the homes under the hammers of this world, which still do good numbers. You then rise to over a million for the homes under the hammers of this world, which still do good numbers. You then rise to over a million again for bargain hunt. The news gets one million, then you dip down again until pointless starts and then you're back over a million. BBC Two

and Channel 4, nothing. Nothing's getting a million at all. BBC Two essentially, it's all repeats in daytime. All of their daytime money goes to BBC1, which I think is right. House of Games is when it tips over a million for BBC2. Channel 4, again, it's difficult with Channel 4. So I quite like their daytime offering. Countdown is still on, Countdown's getting 300,000, something like that, which actually is a success story because it was really in the doldrums

under the previous presenter and they bought in Colin Murray and it's had a lease of life, but it's 300,000. They have New Life in the Sun, Chateau DIY, good shows, but they're getting 300, 400,000. And Channel 4, I think the other day, Taskmaster was the first thing that even got close to a million and that's nine o'clock at night. So very, very little is getting a million and yet in daytime you do have shows that do that. ITV, six, 700,000, as I say, all morning and a consistent audience, that's healthy.

And you wait till tipping point and chase and the ratings are through the roof there, you know, 1.5. The chase can get 3 million on a good day. So daytime TV is, it really, really, really pays its way because it's much deeper than normal TV. And yet we're losing half the jobs here. TV is really, really, really pays its way because it's much deeper than normal TV. And yet we're losing half the jobs here. And that is, as I say, I don't think it's the fault. I don't think it's bungling channel bosses. I think it is the new reality of British television.

I just want to say I've spoke to various presenters of GMB who are absolutely gutted because I think they feel like that team has done incredibly to bring GMB to where it is today. But they're all safe. I think that's something very notable about this news. They might be doing slightly less. Yes, they've lost half of their year's work. But yeah, the key thing is- Well, not necessarily because for someone like Lorraine, if she was doing four days a week before and someone else was doing five days, now it's fewer weeks of the year, but she's doing five days. Oh, Lorraine does 30 weeks a year, whatever.

So it's the team. So as I say, I've talked to some presenters, and none of them are crowing. None of them are going for you. We've still got our jobs. They're all saying, this team who we've worked with forever and ever and ever, that's lighting, sound, camera, makeup, wardrobe, those are the people.

They all got summoned to ITV the night before this announcement. And they were told, if we give you a green light, you've kept your job. If we give you an amber light, you have to reapply for your job. And if you get a red light, you've lost your job. And these are people who've worked in this same team for, you know, 10 years, 15 years, 20 years. And again, listen, there's an inevitability about it. I get it. But as someone who's grown up in that industry and grown up with those people and grown up in those teams, it's a sad day, I would say it's a sad day. But I don't think it's due to mismanagement. I think it's due

to the new economics of the situation that we live in. I mean, it's weird, you know, when you and I were really young, you know, these channels used to have old films on in the afternoon. And I honestly sometimes think we might end up with some of that in the schedule, because I think eventually that's good. Just making programs at all becomes prohibitively expensive. And I think that bought in stuff at some point will take up more of the daytime weekday schedule as it once did, you know, as it once did. Yes. I mean, you know, all TV has expanded, you know, as you said, we used to have very small amount of TV and it costs us an awful lot. And now it's, you know, it's on constantly.

But we've had this for a long time now, you know, most people under 45 are used to television being on the whole time. And so we mustn't show our age too much. Listen, we're not Nick Ferrari yet, Marina. He's very good. Listen, I genuinely don't doubt it. I take a lot of cabs. I'm aware of his qualities. But this has happened before on ITV daytime. They were forced into a change before and it really, really worked for them is the interesting thing. I think this is what's behind it. Because if you cast your mind back seven or eight

years, and the Jeremy Carls show was an absolute fixture of ITV mornings. And when that had to be taken off air for the reasons that we all know, GMB and Lorraine moved forward a bit. This morning moved backwards a bit and they covered the gap like an open wound and nobody noticed the difference. So they saved it, you know, the Jeremy Carl show, which cost them, whatever it cost them, suddenly the same production teams who were already making progress for them closed up across that whole hour.

Nothing happened to the ratings, but something happened to the cost, which is it came down. So they've done this before. And something happens to the employees of those shows. And that, you know, you led on that when we opened this item and that's what I totally, you know, it's absolutely heartbreaking with those people who have lost their jobs and have built these shows. I agree. But I also agree realistically that it can be covered

much in the way you said as it happened before. Yeah, you know, the only thing I think that's tricky about it is these are successful shows and that's a real kick in the nuts for everybody who's working on this. Listen, we've all worked on failing shows, all of us, and you're aware that at the end of the contract there's not going to be another contract. You absolutely get it. That's the business we work in. It's a hits business, but these people are working on hits. So Channel 4 this week also announced something which went down very badly with the independent sector anyway, which is they are going to start producing more of their programs in-house. And to explain what that means, BBC traditionally always made all of

their own programs. Now, Independence make programs for them as well. ITV have ITV studios, which make lots of programs for them. And what that means essentially is you're getting the advertising money for putting a show like The Chase out, but you're also getting money from selling The Chase abroad. So you're double-dipping every time you do a show. Now, Channel 4, whose sole existence is to support a British creative industry and to support independence, are again in a situation where the money is not adding up. And so they are suggesting that they do what the BBC and ITV do, have BBC studios and ITV studios and having their own in-house production. The indie sector has understandably gone nuts about that

because the whole point of Channel 4 was it was to support this industry. But they're just using a different route than ITV to exactly the same problem, which is if the money is not coming in to your channel and you want your channel to continue, and we all do that if we're inside an organization, you have to do something. I think the channel four thing doesn't smell right to me because the whole job is supposed to be to support the British creative industry and if they're owning their own companies, I think it's harder. But it just goes to show that, you know, everybody, everybody is having terrible trouble.

Everybody is out there saying, can you do the same for half the price? Is the conversation certainly not limited to, as I say, to, you know, as we've talked about it before in drama and other things that people are saying for half or two thirds of the price, not can you, but you're going to need to find a way of doing it because otherwise it's not going to happen at all. Yeah, the big BBC comedy festival up in Belfast last week, again, this was a lot of the conversation, the producers are saying we cannot afford to keep making the comedy we make and we need to find a way of making it cheaper, we need to find a way of British audiences accepting slightly cheaper looking television. Because the nice thing with comedy is if it's funny, it's funny. And people will

forgive what it looks like. So that conversation is being had and they announced a lot of new commissions at that and some of them are on the cheaper end of the scale. So that's three different channels, the BBC trying to find cost cuttings in making the sort of things it was making anyway, ITV consolidating lots of different shows under one banner saving money. Channel 4 thinking, can we make our own television programs and make money? And all of these people are speaking

to the same point, which is the industry we grew up with is no longer there. And can we eke it out as long as possible and get to the point where we have a big streaming service owned by these companies that actually can compete internationally. And if we can keep going for the next five years, then I think we have a chance to do that because with AI, the whole industry is about to change completely, completely. And I think if you're still in the game at that point, I think then this industry could remain very, very healthy.

I agree with that. That is a positive note to wind this occasionally negative item up with. Good old AI. I mean, listen, it's going to kid us all as well. Yeah, of course. At least it'll be good for TV. That's the message of this podcast. We will die at the hands of the machines, but we will be watching great telly while it's happening. Yeah, right up to the last minute. Can I just watch one more minute of Escape to the Country before you annihilate me? Right.

On that note, shall we go to a break? Yeah, well you say that because you know you're getting a present after the break. I know, I just want to go to a break. Can we go to a break and come back from the break and get my present? But please listen to the adverts, you know, like always. This podcast is brought to you by Sky, where you can watch season three of And Just Like That, the next chapter in the Sex and the City story. What is Carrie Bredser up to now, Marina?

Well, she has said goodbye to her beloved apartment. She's moved into a townhouse in Gramercy Park. New chapter, new book. She is writing, you'll love this, she's writing Romanticie, Richard. Yes, that genre we have already pretended to understand for this podcast. Just romance and fantasy. Listen, it's what I'm doing next. The Thursday Romantasy Club. Now Miranda's adjusting to post-Shea life, Charlotte is navigating family life while reliving her thirties alongside younger colleagues, and Carrie, she is still catastrophically allergic to stability, but trying. Watch the brand new season of And Just Like That, available 30th of May on Sky.

Welcome back everybody. Apologies, by the way, if you hear some Italian traffic in the background, I have to keep the window open here, otherwise I shall die. Oh, I'm so sorry. It's very atmospheric and you're as open to the Italian streets. I'm hearing no atmosphere but a lot of attitude. That's what I'm hearing. Now, shall we go straight on to talk about this British band who are making waves or shall we give you your present? I want to talk about Sleep Token but you know I have to have my present first. Let's have your present. Now, this is something we talked about a while ago. It's almost impossible to get hold of, but we managed to get hold of one for you. Now Joey, our lovely producer in London,

has got it for you. He's going to bring it in for you now. Oh my God. Look, it's being passed to me right now. Oh my gosh. This is like unboxing. This is going to go crazy on YouTube. Oh my God. Is this Glenn Powell's mustard? Yeah. Oh my god. Oh my god you're so lucky. This is the Smash Kitchen. This is not sponsored content. I just want you to know. Oh my god look they've even got me some chips that I can try it with. Oh my god I'm gonna try this live. What else is in this bag? Smash Kitchen Spicy Mayonnaise. Why hasn't Glenn Powell, like Paul Newman,

put his face on this? That is a ball drop, I've got to say. But can I try it now? What are you trying, the mustard or the spicy mayonnaise? Spicy mayonnaise, obviously, I'm going first with it. But don't worry, it'll all get used. Hang on, I've got to take off that little bit. This could be 40 minutes,

as anyone who's ever opened a ketchup at home will know. This is the sort of content Nick Ferrari would kill for. Right, here it is. Look, there we go. Let me try that with a chip. It's truck month at GMC. Tackle the open road with added confidence in a 2025 Sierra 1500 Pro Graphite

at 0% financing for up to 72 months. With an available 5.3-liter V8 engine, 20-inch high-gloss black painted aluminum wheels, off-road suspension with available 2-inch factory installed lift kit, plus a towing capacity of up to 13,200 pounds, you'll be ready for anything this truck month. Truck month is on now. Ask your GMC dealer for details. Why do Fintechs like Float choose Visa? As a more trusted, more secure payments network,

Visa provides scale, expertise, and innovative payment solutions. Learn more at visa.ca slash fintech. I'm getting very strong top notes of salad cream, actually, weirdly. Interesting that Texan thinks this is spicy. But yeah, it's growing on me. Is it?

Like the, very much like the work of Clem Powell that's now actually grown on me and it's now symbiotically linked to me. You cut one of us, we bleed. He says this all the time by the way, but they cut it out of interviews. They don't want to draw attention to me. Um, I absolutely, I can't thank you enough. I say this present is from me. Yes.

It's impossible to get hold of this Glenn Powell sauce in the UK. Impossible. But I tell you where it's not impossible. That's America. And one of our listeners, lovely Sam Bond said to us, I'm coming over to the UK. Can I buy some Glenn Powell sauce for you and bring it over for Marina? And we said, Sam, thank you so much. That would be our absolute pleasure. I think she's written you a little note as well. Sorry, I feel like I'm doing the birthdays on CBeebies. Excuse me. Right. Sorry. Hello, Marina. I hope you enjoy these Glenn Powell

smashed kitchen items. I'll be honest, I had to ask my two girls who Glen Powell was. Well, I'm gosh, well, I mean, the present is actually all yours, isn't it Sam? Yes. Which only went to prove how out of the loop I am, especially as we live in Austin. Wow. Oh my gosh. That's cool. Okay, Sam, Richard, I cannot thank you enough. This is a wonderful present. I thank you so much. You've made me very happy. Excellent, now, talking of things that are hot and successful in America. Sleep Token.

Sleep Token, there's, so a British band, they were number one in the UK last week and number one in America. Have you heard of them? Now, again, we're talking about the side-owization of our culture. So to be number one in America, number one album in America is huge. It's a huge deal and that's exactly what Sleep Token have just

done with their fourth album which is called, and this will give you an idea of what the type of bands Sleep Token are, it's called Even in Arcadia. Give you an even more of an idea of what sort of bands Sleep Token are. Their second album was called This Place Will Become Your Tomb. Now, Sleep Token are one of those bands. Nobody knows who they are because they are always masked at all times. The lead singer is called Vessel, probably not his real name. And the other members of the band are called in Roman numerals 2, 3 and 4. So formed in 2016, always been masked. The shtikis, they worship a deity called Sleep. So formed in 2016, always been masked.

The shtick is they worship a deity called sleep. It's hard rock. It's hard rock. It's not hard rock. I mean, this is what shocked me. I agree. This is what they like to describe themselves as. So you're listening and you're expecting you're going to hear something fully metal.

But does that look like you're hearing, am I hearing art pop now? I mean, it's the least metal thing I've ever heard. Basically, you could put this in your hand luggage, and it would go through the scanners. I think that's what I thought that I genuinely, if you've not listened to them, go on to Spotify or, you know, where or buy something buy an album and have a listen, because it's sort of everything all at once, there's kind of some new metal there, there's EDM in there,

there's all pop, there's pop rap, there's a bit of shoegaze. It's kind of everything. He sings in a very operatic song, but then he's guttural kind of screams as well. So it's a very, very peculiar sound. And as I say, I think the fascinating thing about them is the secrecy of who they are. Now, you can find out who they are very easily, but I will choose not to say who they actually are. But they present themselves entirely masked, entirely, you know, they have a backstory of these things that they worship. Every single one of their Instagram posts starts, behold, which suggests to me they've also got a sense of humor. Yeah, their live shows are called rituals, the singles are offerings.

For maybe older listeners, there's a very, very strong sense of spinal tap, stonehenge to this. There's like a real like, you know, England is a country of folklore, etc, etc. And obviously the title, you know, Take Me Back to Eden, even in Arcadia, all of these things are deliberately pretentious as it were. The masks thing I think is interesting. They are the second masked band to have a number one album in the last month. In America. Yeah, in America. And that was Ghost with Skeletor. But there's something about, obviously,

by the way, masks and particularly masks in kind of hard rock and metal or whatever have always been around. You had, I don't know, Guara and Slipknot and even Pussy Riot. And actually, you're also, I suppose I'm thinking in Daft Punk, in electronica, you have The Knife, whatever, people like that. But there's something about this particular age where so many bands are singing about these kind of weird parasocial relationships, they're fans and you know whatever that... Masks in some ways make more sense than ever in this kind of weird world. In the last single Vessel sings, Caramel the last single, he says this stage has become a prison and the idea of even being hidden has captured him. Well I love it when bands get to that stage where a huge amount of music they're making about the songs about the pressures of fame. Do you remember that bit in Almost Famous

where Philip Seymour Hoffman, who's playing Lester Bang, says to the kid, and the kid's like, I don't know, how am I pitching this to Roding Stur... He's asked me what type of piece I'm writing, I don't know what I'm writing, and he says, tell him it's a think piece about a mid-level band struggling with its own limitations in the face of harsh stardom. He'll wet himself. And to some extent, this is a mid-level band struggling with its own limitations in the face of harsh stardom. Am I right? They're not critical darlings, Richard. No, God, they're not. Can I read you something from Stereogum about it when the album went to number one? So I think they've been tolerated while they weren't number one.

As soon as you're number one, everyone's like, okay. So this is from Stereogum, the American music site. It said, if you are lucky enough to have never heard a Sleep Token song before, allow me to give you some context. They're an anonymous British band who, by blending unexceptional metal core with lots of nauseating soulful white boy vibrato, have become one of the most popular and defining heavy bands of the 2020s. They've just put out their full length offering.

That's what they call their own records, titled Even in Arcadia, and it is now American number one. I think it's a good news story. I genuinely do. A band is a gang, and you do have to have your own legends in genuinely do. A band is a gang and you do have to have your own legends in a band. And this is a gang of British guys who are number one in America. We've talked a lot about where have the bands gone? Where are the bands? This is a band who've absolutely done it their own way and are selling, they're making a huge amount of money. They're

selling out huge arenas. Well, if it's, oh, that's some real Italian traffic noise. That's the Italian Sleep Token fan club who drive around in a converted ambulance. Okay, so a certain amount of opinion has coalesced about who they really are. If they are, and Vessel, the sort of lead singer basically, is who they say he is, then what an amazing turnaround. You just plug away doing a certain thing and then just think, tell you what,

what if I get a ludicrous mask, a ludicrous stagecoach, I start drawing down all this kind of thing that that type of band is always, you know, bollocks about English folklore and heritage and our own soil and all this nonsense. And I just really just commit to the bit. If it is who they say it is, I think it is too. And if you look at, I've spent so long on it this week and I do think it's him. And if you look at what he was doing before and now it's like, I mean, what a story. It's an amazing story. And actually, I really hope that one day, I don't know, even if it's decades away, enough time has passed to say, well, here's how we

did it. Because it's almost like a swindle, and I'm not saying it is a swindle. And the way people talk about it. So I think there's something really fascinating about that, about it. But in another way, I do think it's interesting, like the type of music that the way they look and all of that, you know, you're expecting some really kind of absolutely insane, that gritty, that really kind of nutty, grittyknot type metal or whatever it is. And in fact, there's something really basic and commercial about them.

It's really, it's really, it's really poppy. And yeah, it's really poppy. And it reminded, it actually reminded me of that thing that I took ages to read. And did you see that article in New York magazine? It's called something is headline is something like it must be nice to be a West Village girl. And it's about how all these kind of young women, genders, I guess, now live in the West Village and have kind of copied a kind of very basic kind of commercialized sex in the city type of lifestyle type of, you know, it's, and it's very, very samey. And some of them say, yeah, we're basic, but that's because things are nice that are basic. And there's something about the kind of rubbing off of all the sharp edges of these places

and maybe these genres and all of these things. And I do think that that's something having listened quite a lot now to this album. I'm like, yeah, it's really been packaged in a basic and commercial way. Yeah, it has. But I genuinely hats off to them, I have to say. I think it's extremely, can I talk very briefly as a sidebar about Ghost, who are the other masked band, who are an awful lot of fun, Swedish, so right, like great big pop songs, but they were formed. There's a guy called Tobias Ford, I mean, we know he's Ghost, for reasons I'll get to. And he says, I wrote this song, it's called Stand By Him, and he said it just had the greatest heavy metal riff I've ever heard. So I thought I have to record

this song. By the way, can I get two lyrics from Stand By Him? A temptress smitten by the blackest force, a vicar bitten blind in intercourse. Only the Swedes, only the Swedes. No, it's my new favourite couplet in absolutely everything. Yeah, it's amazing. You have to text me this immediately afterwards. A vicar bitten blind in intercourse. Anyway, so he wrote this and he teamed up with one of his mates, Gustav Lindström, who obviously he used to be in the band Repugnant with, and they teamed up.

They recorded this song, Stand By Him, and they looked at each other and said, we don't look like the guys who are playing this song. We don't look like a hard heavy metal rocker. So they decided at that point to wear masks and have done ever since. And Ghosta, huge. I mean, they're massive. And they- Oh my God, I wish we had masks for this podcast.

Oh, we should have done that right. I look, I've got big shoulders on this cardigan. But imagine if they were like just the spikes, you know, the sort of real metal the whole and then the sort of weird kind of Japanese vey Kabuki ish mask. Yeah, either us ever off for any reason. Right? We must whoever co hosts with us must wear a mask. And we'll give them a name and people can try and guess who they were and slightly change the voice. And they can enter into some very basic dry ice with some pennants fluttering in the background and something to do with, you know, Stonehenge happening.

It's perfect. So Tobias Forge leads Ghost and all the other members of the band are called nameless ghouls. Tobias Forge keeps naming himself after popes and then killing that pope and then he's the next pope. But anyway, the reason that we know it's Tobias Forge, and listen, I hope this doesn't happen to our friends in Sleep Token, the reason we know it's Tobias Forge is because the other three nameless ghouls took him to court because they said he'd cut them out of the royalties. And so he got named in all the court proceedings, which is how we know Tobias Forge. Yeah. So Tobias Forge. Tobias Forge is still quite a good name.

Yeah. It's a great heavy metal name. It's not like he's called, you know, my favorite, Vin Diesel, Mark Sinclair. Yeah. If you were called Tobias Forge in England, you've already, that's the most heavy metal name you can have. You've got your band name. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You might as well be called Jethro Anvil.

It's absolutely perfect. Anyway, listen, so Ghost Story, by the way, if you like the old school heavy metal and you don't know Ghost, they are a lot of fun, very, very satanic. And if you like the old school heavy metal and you haven't heard Sleeptaker, you're not going to be hearing any old school heavy metal. But it's interesting. Yeah, it's really interesting. They're like, their fandom is really young and they're hugely popular.

So it is a great British success story. Shall we talk about a great American success story now? Please. Ms. Rachel. Some people will already know her. She does a YouTube channel called Songs for Littles. Now, Ms. Rachel, this again is another indication of how success can come from pretty much anywhere. And you know, we sometimes think you need to know the right people or you need to already be connected to become a huge hit.

She is now making $18 million a year. And it came from the fact that she was a preschool teacher and had a son, Thomas, who didn't speak till he was two and a half, so late on set speaking. And so she started writing songs to help young children learn to speak. So in 2019, in person, she would host these classes for parents with children who were having difficulty speaking, and she would sing songs. It got so popular, she was like, I'm going to have to film some of these, so of the people who can't come, can see and can hear the songs and can benefit from these things. She's got two master's degrees in early years education and music education. So she's the real deal. She knows what she's doing.

So she started filming these things and they absolutely took off. So that was 2019. You remember what happened in 2020, the pandemic. And during the pandemic, this thing went crazy because a lot of people were at home with their kids, were home educating. And also people were worried actually that the kids were not learning to speak as quickly as they might have done because of the lack of sociability and the lack of friendship groups. So it went absolutely crazy. Interestingly also in America, there was genuine concern that American kids had started speaking with an English accent because Peppa Pig was so huge and because young kids were only learning to speak from Peppa Pig.

So Miss Rachel very much speaks in an American accent. Now, Miss Rachel's got 15 million subscribers on YouTube, so over 10 billion views of her content. She's like an American Mr. Tumble, you know, Mr. Tumble, Justin Fletcher, who does kids absolutely adore, but also incredibly inclusive for babies and toddlers, it's for a really young age section. And she's become enormous and she's done a deal with Netflix. But it's interesting the deal she I

think this is really interesting type of deal she did. It's amazing what she's done a deal with Netflix, but it's interesting the deal she, I think this is really interesting the type of deal she did. It's amazing what she's done. That they've done four compilation episodes of her videos. So they've made it up to an hour and they took four of these. And this is the reason if you're like me and you kind of constantly look at Netflix to see what's in the chart that week, you might have known what all the shows are. And then you keep seeing this kind of lady in a pink headband and think, who is that? And that's because it's not for you. But she is, so that's all they had. It instantly went to number one for babies and toddlers. And it's been bobbing along in the top 10 chart ever since they've had it. Now, along

with Mickey Mouse Clubhouse, which is Disney, obviously, that, she's the most watched in children's streaming programming and she's number 10 in all streaming content. So children's content is incredibly valuable. Bluey is by a million miles the most watched show on Disney+. There are other people who Netflix have done similar deals with. Blippi, who they also took his content and put it on Netflix as a YouTuber to begin with. Same with CocoMellon. I think it's very interesting. It's interesting for lots of different reasons.

Also, I should say that she's had all these different backlashes, but it's interesting what Netflix want. Netflix want a children's library. Something like 15% of their viewership is on children's content anyway. Just this last week they've acquired Sesame Street. Interesting that deal I noticed it allows them to do games, mobile games. Mobile games for children are absolutely huge, it's a huge growth area, they're like doubling all the time how many people are doing it. So you've got Peppa Pig games and Cocoa Melon games but

Children's Television Workshop, who is now called the Sesame Street Workshop, they started Sesame Street and it was in the late 60s. And it's really interesting because the same things that held true then remain true now, even though we kind of panic about screen time and all of these things. They realized that preschool children in America, and this is late 1960s, we were watching 27 hours of television a week. Only 27 hours? Only 27 hours. And they'd spent, you know, thousands of hours in front of it by the time they first entered school. And they also thought, and it was often in families where they didn't

have enough time to look after children, and children were put in front of television. And you know, we've suddenly all done that ourselves. But Joan Cooney was one of the founders. She saw that what preschool children loved when they were watching all that American television, which wasn't really even meant for them. What they loved most was the commercials because they were really short and they had little jingles and they were really repetitive. And so much of Sesame Street's programming came from her watching how babies and preschool

children reacted to those adverts and how much they enjoyed them. And they tried to use it as a learning tool. And it's obviously been hugely successful. And it's kind of beyond iconic, isn't it, Sesame Street? But it's interesting that Netflix got that as well this week. They're really trying to kind of create a children's library. But something that we've obviously talked about lots of times, and we've said a million times, you know, Netflix won the streaming wars. I think the next question now is, or did they? Exactly. Listen, it's no longer Netflix versus the networks or Netflix versus studios. The next 10 years is Netflix versus YouTube. They're aware that their only competitor is

YouTube. And the one interesting advantage Netflix can have is YouTube for a while signed creators to exclusive deals and very soon gave that up. It didn't really work for anybody. So actually anything on YouTube is up for grabs. So as you say, Ms. Rachel, and if you've not seen it, it's her singing songs. She'll do things like the wheels on the bus

and in see when she spider. She will also have, she writes her own songs. She's another singer songwriter on there. Her husband Aaron Curso is a musical director. And you know, so she'll do icky sticky bubble gum, jump like a frog, original songs as well. And she talks to cameras, she talks to the kids as well. So it's, that's all the content is.

She does it in her own apartment, in front of a green screen and it's putting in $18 million a year. So that's the content is. She does it in her own apartment, in front of a green screen, and it's putting in $18 million a year. So that's what it is. So Ms. Rachel has already done all this stuff. As I say, she's passed it up for Netflix in presumably a very lucrative deal. She doesn't have to do any extra work at all.

She's got these hour long things that she's already recorded. So it's working beautifully for Ms. Rachel. It's working beautifully for Netflix. YouTube don't have a business plan where they can keep all these things in house anyway. But as you say, Netflix are trying to find ways to beat YouTube, they are no longer trying to beat the networks, they are trying to they are trying to beat YouTube and kids

programming, because we know that young kids YouTube is the app is just the single go-to platform. That's the real battleground. And Ms. Rachel being quite so successful on Netflix is a huge hit for them. Yes, I agree. I think it's interesting to look at the CEOs of those two organizations or the COC, in case of Ted Sarandos for Netflix. And then Neil Mowen who YouTube's only, it's so Moen who YouTube's only 20 years old. I listened

to an interesting interview with him and what was being put to him was like oh look at how many of your creators even though they're really big have gone off and have gone to Prime in the case of Mr Beast and to do a show and here's Miss Rachel but she's not really doing anything different and the point of the interviewer in that particular one was to say, but aren't you know, are people trying to get something they feel they can't get on your platform? And actually he didn't sound rattler at all, Neil Millman. He said, I tell you what, Netflix came to them and that's fine.

But they all love YouTube the most because they get no notes. And there was something, I know, but it's true, isn't it? It's the dream. Now, in contrast, but it's true, isn't it? No, no, it's the dream. It's the dream. Now, in contrast, Ted Sarandas, you probably saw this a couple of weeks ago, people keep asking him about YouTube all the time. And he's starting to sound more and more antsy in a weird way about it. He said that, you know, I'm focused on capturing the 80% of TV viewing that isn't on either

of our platforms. And he's making a big deal about, you know, we have professional content and he's trying to make them sound like either pro-am or just amateur. But he said, you know, YouTube's a good platform to cut your teeth on. He's trying to make it seem like you go to YouTube and then eventually you come to it, which is what by the way the networks always used to do. And then you come to the serious people. And then he said, YouTube's for killing time Netflix is for spending time now that is the first time I have ever heard him sound old and bitter That is the first time because he's always sounded like hey, I'm not bothered by any of this. It's honestly I thought he sounded rattled and

Maybe that's just me. Maybe I'm reading too much into it But it's the first time I've ever heard him and thought oh,, you know, you're really, there's something about this. And I'm not saying that it's going in one way and not at all, because I think Netflix are doing it brilliantly. And in many ways they're becoming more like YouTube. Look what they're trying to do. They're trying to have podcasts on Netflix.

They're trying to change the home screen because the key with all these services, like how quickly can they get you to what you want? That's become everything. YouTube themselves are trying to change their home screen to make it look a bit more like a conventional streamer. They're going to have a live NFL game. Everyone's sort of becoming, trying to move in information and become a bit like each other without having to lose what made them that in the first place. If you look at YouTube as well, this week, they've been holding their sort of parties

to try and get some of their content nominated for Emmys. This is the big thing, because the one thing that they're aware on their channel is maybe they don't have the traditional industry recognition that you can get on other places. And by the way, with traditional industry recognition, your advertising dollars also go up a lot. So Sean Evans, who does Hot Ones, the chicken wincing,

that's going to be up against all the big kind of late night chat shows for the Emmys. So everyone is trying to be everyone else at the same time. And we will all end up in the same place, which is traditional scheduled television with adverts in the middle of it. Yeah, and they'll have, I agree. And there will be premium shows on YouTube, not the service that people play for you, you do premium, but there will be premium shows on YouTube, not the service that people play for, you view premium, but there will be professionally produced content.

Even though, you know, Neil Moen from YouTube would say, but that we have professional, you know, don't tell me Mr. Beast isn't professionally produced. But clearly Mr. Beast felt there's still something for him on Prime that he couldn't get. And Ted Sarandos said about that, interestingly, Oh, look, Mr. Beast lost 80 million on his YouTube channel last year. That would never happen on Netflix basically. Well, by the way, I don't think he made any money from Beast games necessarily because he said he spent it all, but it's not, it's everyone as you say, is trying to be everybody else.

Yeah. But yeah, it's Netflix won the streaming wars or did they? Yeah. If I can finish with two things, firstly, how great was Ted Sarandos playing himself in the studio, the Seth Rogen show? He's amazing. He's like a pro actor.

But secondly, as I say, just like Sleep Token, this is a huge success story, and it's a story that success can come from anywhere, and in a way that actually our culture is becoming slightly more democratized, and we keep seeing examples, Colleen Hoover in literature, Sleep Token in music, Ms. Rachel in television content, of people who come from absolutely nowhere with no connections, find an audience, grow that audience organically,

and are then able to monetize their own audience. Something we didn't have 15, 20 years ago. You know, there would be a gatekeeper in there immediately. And that just is not happening anymore. And I think that there's a real positivity in that. In no notes culture. In no notes culture. Yeah. Any recommendations? I've got one, but I've read it. Okay, go on. I've got, I've just read a book that lots of people read last year, but it's totally brilliant. It's a novel. It's called The Wizard of the Kremlin by Giuliano

de' Empoli. And I'm meant to get around to reading it. And now it's all about, it's a novel, but it's so brilliant and clever about how power works in modern Russia. It's absolutely gripping and it's so brilliantly written. So that is a recommendation for me. He sounds Italian, Giovanni de' Empoli. But what can't he do? Because he fully understands the sort of things slithering around the Kremlin. I finally caved in and watched the film that everyone's already watched.

But if you haven't watched it, recommended Conclave. We watched the other day. It's really good. It's like a really good, it's like a, when they say why don't they make films like that anymore, they just did and it's called Conclave. There's a huge amount of acting in it, huge amount. There is a lot of acting in it.

Oh, that sounds like you didn't love it. But listen, don't listen to Marina. She's very much the Nick Ferrari of this podcast. I loved watching the Vatican get chewed. Every piece of that beautiful scenery. Wow. Wow. I loved it. I loved it. And also Cardinal Benitez, who plays a major part. I wonder if he calls himself Cardi B. That's what I've been thinking all the way through. Listen, that ruined a bit of the film for me when I was thinking that. Thanks for passing that one on, paying it forward, as always.

I hope you like your present. I love it so much. I'm going to use it tonight. I don't know if they'll be serving this on the tables of Bologna, but if they're not, try and make them think that they ought to have Glenn Powell's sauce available in all their fine restaurants. Knowing Italians as I do know, it feels like they might not. Well, try and drag them into the 21st century, Richard, because this stuff is going places. This is not sponsored content. They'll have to start with the 20th century first. See you on Thursday for some Q&A action.

See you on Thursday. Well that brings us to the end of another episode of The Rest Is Entertainment, brought to you by our friends at Sky. I have been catching up on The Last Of Us recently, such a gripping watch. Absolutely right. The critics are fairly unanimous. It's dark and intense, brilliantly done, they're all saying, especially on your Sky glass with its high quality screen.

Even those very low lit scenes, every flicker, every detail, it really pulls you in. One minute you'll be stretched out on the sofa, the next you'll be gripping the cushion and that is not a euphemism. The picture quality really just brings everything to life from the comfort of your living room. It feels properly cinematic, like the room fades away and you're in the thick of it. Until the clickers show up, then it feels a bit too real. That's when you reach for the blanket, the perfect night in. Couldn't agree more, so for anyone wanting to upgrade their screen time, head to Sky.com

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