The Rest Is Entertainment - Will George RR Martin Ever Finish Game Of Thrones?

Episode Date: October 21, 2026

What happens if George RR Martin dies before he finishes his book series? How do famous actors learn their lines? What are the dark secrets of celebrity publicists? Marina Hyde and Richard Osman answer your questions on unfinished manuscripts, gay romance on screen and the world of tabloid kiss and tells. The Rest is Entertainment is brought to you by Octopus Energy, Britain's most awarded energy supplier. Sponsored by Lloyds. Learn how to avoid scams and protect yourself. See how Darkhorse Anti-Fraud Technology helps keep you safe from fraud. Search Lloyds protect yourself from fraud. Join The Rest Is Entertainment Club: Unlock the full experience of the show – with exclusive bonus content, ad-free listening, early access to Q&A episodes, access to our newsletter archive, discounted book prices with our partners at Coles Books, early ticket access to live events, and access to our chat community. Sign up directly at ⁠therestisentertainment.com ⁠ For more Goalhanger Podcasts, head to ⁠www.goalhanger.com ⁠ Video Editor: Adam Thornton Assistant Producer: Imee Marriott Senior Producer: Joey McCarthy Social Producer: Emma Jackson Exec Producer: Ami Bennett Filmed at ⁠www.westdigitalstudios.com⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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So this is rather more than a passing interest in the weather. Unlock unlimited free grocery delivery with PC Express Pass. Shop online and get the same low No Frills prices delivered. Get your first year of PC Express Pass for just $2.50 a month. Learn more at nofrills.ca. Hold music. Not what you want to hear when a pipe dispersed and your basement is flooding. That's why intact insurance answers 2 million claim calls per year within 20 seconds. So instead of hearing this lovely track, you'll hear this in seconds.

Hello, Intact Insurance. Hello, and welcome to this episode of the Rest is Entertainment, Questions and Answers Edition. I'm Marina. And I'm Richard Osmond. Hello, everyone. Hello, Marina. Hello, Richard. How are you?

I'm very well. Thank you. I've seen a lot of you this week. Never enough. Never enough. I've got a question, though, that is very much for you because it's about unfinished books with dead authors. Okay. And Leo says, what happens if an author were to die when they haven't finished a book series?

Well, it happens a lot. I mean, authors die in the middle of writing a book, or certainly a lot of authors, you know, die when they're writing a book series if they haven't finished that. And, you know, different things happen in different eventualities. So Terry Pratchett famously said that whatever he was working on when he died would have to be run over by a steamroller. And that's exactly what happened, funnily enough, his executors, He had supposedly had 10 unfinished books on his hard drive.

That's the sort of thing where you go. There might have been little kind of ideas. But there were certainly some significant stuff there. So 10 unfinished books on it and ran it over with a vintage steamroller at the Great Dorset Steam Fair. I've got a lot of sympathy with that approach, by the way. The thought of something. I do as well. Exactly.

And that's the interesting thing with authors. When the authors give their view, it tends to be different to when the author. author's estate. Yeah. It's their view. It's often different. No shit. But sometimes authors do take control of it.

So Richard Jordan, who did the Weird of Time series, and that was unfinished. But he had some warning that he was going to pass away and had written extracts, outlines, like really, really detailed notes. And it was all given to his widow, who was also his editor, passed it to the incredible sci-fi and fantasy author, Brandon Sanderson. So that was all with a blessing. Exactly. And had given this sort of, you know, because you feel so connected to your audience and you know that they love this series and you know that you're not going to be able to finish it. But you want to give your readers that satisfaction. And also for you to know that it got finished as well.

And you've got someone like Brandon Sanderson, you absolutely trust. And, you know, your wife is your editor and she knows as well. So that, I think, is almost the perfect way to finish. I always feel complicated. You know, I love Scott Fitzgerald, and I obviously love Hollywood. And so the last tycoon, I always feel a bit icky when I'm rereading it because I know that it's not. I mean, he was always so sort of desperate for money or living high on the hog or whatever that, yeah, just put it out or whatever. But, God, I always feel really bad and thinking how much of this has been, you know, I never fully, you know, I suppose I could dig into the exact manuscript things that have been done.

Yeah, you don't want to. It's things like the amount of different people who've finished off, Dickens is. Edwin Drew. I mean, it's sort of as if someone does leave something unfinished, the desire to finish it is almost overwhelming, which is why you do have to have some control over it sometimes. Something like Steve Larsson, who did the girl with a dragon tattoo, the Millennium Trilogy,

and they were published posthumously. Steve Larsen died, having delivered that trilogy. And they became such a huge, like an enormous success. And the family then the estate got David Lagenkrantz to do. another book in the Millennium Trilogy and again, Steve Larsson's widow was not happy with that and you can sort of see, I mean, it was so enormous

and of course the money does go into the estate and that's something good but I think she probably felt that he'd written these three perfect books and why not leave it at that? So there's lots of different routes through it. But George R.R. Martin who as we know is still alive, the Game of Thrones author famously

has not finished that series quite yet. It's got the sixth book. He's been working on for a very long time. He wants to do a seventh one as well. He has said, if they don't get finished when he passes away, they should remain unfinished because he says, the history has shown us that these literary rights pass to grandchildren or collateral descendants or people who didn't actually know the writer and don't care about his wishes.

It's just a cash counter then. And then we get abominations to my mind like Scarlett, the Gone with a Win sequel. So it's safe to say that no one will be finishing off George Arr-Martin's work. I hope they did it on the telly, but OK. But I like the Jordan thing, I think, is nice, which is he knew he wanted it finished. He found someone he trusted and he put everything in place for it to be finished. But we don't always know when we're going to go. That's a nice way to start.

Yeah, so sorry, where we've got to go next. This may be even less cheery. A question from Gemma. Reading the extraordinary New York Times article about malicious PR campaigns against women in Hollywood made me think of Max Clifford. How did he garner such a great relationship with journalists and celebrities? despite him clearly being such a dreadful man. Yeah, get your house, Matt suits on because he was a piece of shit, and we'll be discussing that now.

Yeah, Matt Clifford, for those who don't know, was a sort of legendary tabloid publicist. He was always so bound up with the editors themselves, which I will get to. But one of the first sort of big stories that people knew him from was he discovered this. He had a lot of relationships with madams who ran brothels and things like that, and he discovered that someone who was working as an escort was having a relationship with both Andrew Neal, who was the editor of the Sunday Times at the time, and Donald Treelford, who was the editor of The Observer,

and some other people in power. And that was a big story for him at the start. So he sold that story, or he held that story over the editors? No, he did sell that story and in lots of different ways. And again, so he cultivates the relationships with the Maddens, because he knows there's going to be stories in the middle of London. Okay. The famous tabloid, the sun headline Freddie Star at My Hampster, came from him. Then there were, he would, he sometimes would invent affairs.

He invented an affair in terms of Derek Katten, who was a sort of Liverpool politician. You must just Google him if you don't know who is because it's too long to explain. But he wanted to give him a new dimension. But really, what he had was, to begin with, there's a lot of kiss and tell girls, so people who'd slept with someone famous and wanted to tell the story. But when he first came to prominence, he claimed to have some sort of kind of moral crusade because he was doing it in the kind of fag end of the Tory government in the 90s when they'd had this back-to-basics campaign and this moral values thing

and he was trying to say, actually they've trashed the NHS and they've done all these things and I, Max Clifford, some sort of knight in shining armour. The fucking shining armour more like that. Yes. And that evaporated in fairly short order once New Labour came in and he carried on doing exactly the same thing. And in some ways, it became worse. I should say that Max Clifford went to prison eventually for having been convicted of sex abuse crimes against women and girls. He was a really bad man. But as I say, you're asking how he got such a great relationship with journalists and celebrities. What he really had was he became the market leader. So there

are some lawyers who do this. If you see, some lawyers have always told me, if you see a lawyer doing a statement on the steps of the courtroom, that person is an asshole. But what they're doing is they're getting business. And Max Clifford was always out there. He was on front of camera and people used to think, often remember, sometimes people have one thing to say, one story to sell and maybe it's there,

and they don't know the world. If you know the name Matt's Clifford, you know that's where you're going to. So if you just slept with someone from Holyooghs, you'd immediately be looking up Max Clippers' phone number. But having said that, he didn't just have those people because he also developed a reputation and cultivated a reputation as someone who was able to keep stories out of the press. And how he did that was often give you another story that was – and I think that often these girls who did the kiss and tells were traded,

their stories were traded in exchange for keeping something about a big male celebrity, a proper celebrity, not just someone who slept with a celebrity, quiet. So if you were a big celebrity, you would ring Max Clifford and say... Simon Cowell famously must have seen something in Max Clifford. And he employed him as publicist. There were other people he would say, oh, I cover up for gay Premier League footballers all the time. I've created whole lives for them that don't exist. I mean, he'd say all this stuff.

He made you feel like he was the wizard of making of misdirection. and I do think that often the people who were not famous who brought stories to him were traded to keep his famous clients safe. But another way he worked, in terms of him having a great relationship with editors, he had the staff. And, God, I mean, he sometimes knew things about the editors who I'm going to shock you were not always angels themselves. And he certainly implied that he did. You know, he'd know about what their partners were up to. And he'd say, you know what? oh I hate doing this

you know I'm so sorry you fucking love it Max you love it this is what you absolutely live for and he had power over them as well because I said I mean you know I've mentioned a couple of newspaper editors and this and they weren't the only ones who didn't live a blameless life

I mean he sometimes I remember reading one story about I think it was it was at the news of the world and Pierce Morgan and Phil Hall I think it was the deputy at the time they were on the phone and they were doing some deal with Max over some story and they thought they'd put the speaker phone down and Phil Hall said something like, oh, Max is such an idiot. He could have got

whatever. And then just drifting out of the speakerphone was that boy saying, that's just cost you, however many, just doubled the price for whatever it was we were selling. I mean, yeah, as I say, he went to prison for sexual assaults against women and girls over a long period of time. He was a kind of swamp dweller. He managed it very, very carefully. He, I think, compromising through people who didn't have any power under the bus. in order to keep much more powerful people who paid him. And lots of people paid Max in secret. Lots of big male celebrities with secrets to keep paid him in secret.

So he made a lot more money out of the stories. He didn't sell than the stories. This is what he always said. And he loved to say that about himself. I believe it's partially true. But none of it was as it seemed. Half the stories that are famous were not true. You know, like that period I was talking about the fag end of the Tory government in the 90s.

And David Meller, who was the culture minister, and he famously had this affair which Max Clifford broke at the story with a girl called Antonia DeSancho and he said, oh, she said, we may, I think the headline, the splash headline on the news of the world was we made love in a Chelsea strip. This didn't occur, but he had the sort of eye for details that you're not going to query that once your marriage has just been blown up. Listen, I did everything you say, but I was not wearing a Chelsea top. Yeah, at that point, but it was the hook. So he had that, you know, he did have that gift for those things. but the pull he had over some of the editors in terms of their own behaviour and the pull he had

compromise. Yeah. And or just implying he had it or constantly suggesting he had it. By the way, he would have had the splash in one of the red tops pretty much every single weekend. He had everybody, people came to him. But that thing where you become the market leader and anything in the same way that some lawyers do, you think, oh, I'll go to them because I know that's who I should go to. if you're always out there, then people come to you.

And people knew the name of Matt's Clifford. I mean, the idea of knowing the name of a publicist was ridiculous, but people knew his name. It's like search engine optimization. Yeah, before it existed. Did he make a lot of money? Yes, he did make a lot of money. But I think he just enjoyed the work.

Yeah. But his business ruined, of course, by the fact that people worked out they could just start tapping phones. Yes. Because then you can get your own stories. Yeah. Everything changed. And kiss and tales were in significant part about there just not being free access

to kind of sexy slash almost porn stuff. You know, the way they were written was written in a slightly sort of porny way and it was titillation on a Sunday. Once the internet came along and you could get anything you like, actually the bottom fell out of that particular market because people weren't particularly interested in... No pun intended.

No, exactly. People were less interested when much more extreme forms of titulation were available. But of course, if it was a big star, then I suppose them being exposed for this or that was worth it. But in general, just like they've committed an infidelity, but I'm kind of enjoying reading about it while this woman poses in her underwear to tell me all about what she's done, that sort of fell away much more. Simpler times.

Yeah. On that unpleasant note, shall we go to a break? I'd love that. Let's have a pallet cleanser and then return with something much more wholesome. Yeah. This episode is brought to you by our friends at Lloyd's. Now, let's talk about movie con artists. Who are your absolute favourites?

Movies, TV and book, my answer is the same. And it's Tom Ripley. I was going to say him. It's one of the greatest characters of all time. So from the talented Mr. Ripley books by Patricia Highsmith, there's five of them. So if you like talented Mr. Ripley, you are in luck. He's like one of the worst men in the world,

but you absolutely root for him at all times. Now, of course, deception makes for excellent entertainment on screen. In real life, when it's your bank account being targeted, the charm somewhat disappeared. Yes, Lloyds have invested 100 million pounds in dark horse anti-fraud technology, which combines intelligent monitoring and real-time alerts to keep you safe from fraud. Click on their app or visit Lloydsbank.com to find out more about how Lloyds protects you from fraud. AI-powered scam checks, voice biometrics and real-time alerts are just some of the ways Lloyds are protecting you.

Based on Lloyd's Banking Group data, 2023 to 2025. unlock unlimited free grocery delivery with PC Express Pass. Shop online and get the same low No Frills prices delivered. Get your first year of PC Express Pass for just $2.50 a month. Learn more at no frills.ca. Welcome back, everybody. A question about learning lines from Lindsay. It does sound like a palate cleanser.

Yeah. How do actors learn their lines? I am in awe at how actors can retain so much dialogue in the correct order. Yeah, I think it's probably the question that actors can. get asked most often. My wife as an actor, I see it all the time. And I think lots of actors are different. The key thing is, you know, it's, and I think there's an amazing study done on this by

Helga Noyce and a husband who I think is Tony. And they looked into how actors learnt lines for many, many, many years. And they talk about it in such a way that chimes with certainly what I've seen, which is you don't just read like a load of text and learn it, you know, go blah, blah, blah, bar, you work out what the beats are in any line of text. You learn those bits. You, you generate the emotion that goes with those lines of text and, you know, and suddenly it kind of comes together bit by bit. So if you've got a long speech, you're not just kind of learning it from beginning to end, you're kind of going, oh, that's the first bit where I'm feeling

sad, that's the next bit where I'm feeling a bit more uplifted. This is the bit where I'm accusing this person of something. And you attach an emotion to each part of the script. They always tell you, when you're trying to, you know, when people are trying to teach those things, like how to remember people's names and how to do it, all of that, that you attach something to something. Yeah. There's some kind of synaptic attachment. Yeah, exactly.

And also trust the process because at first it looks impossible. You know, you know, Ingrid gets sides and you just, I'll look at it. I go, there's absolutely no way you can ever learn that. And actually, bit by bit, it is, it is learnable. Yeah, of course. Any actor has someone who will run lines with them. And yeah, I'm always doing it. And she's always like, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

No, it wasn't that. It's an and. But you see bit by bit by bit how it comes together and you see it comes together by the emotion of the thing and working out the meaning of the thing. So that's an interesting way that our brain works, I think. Lots of other little techniques, Terry Cruz from Brooklyn 9-9, he would record his lines and then would go running

and would have them repeated over and over again. He said actually running really help me. And funny enough, Helgen Noisse says the same thing, is if you can learn on the move, it's actually slightly... really? Yeah, exactly. There's another thing which is once you have learned them, gives you a little bit more freedom.

There's always little bits and bobs that you can change. But again, it's always about the emotion and the beats of the scene. Robert Downey Jr. does a thing, which I've seen lots of actors do, funnily enough, where he will, every single line of dialogue, he would just write down the first letter. So if you're going to do, but you're going to need a bigger boat,

Y, G, N, A, B, and just write that down because it just, there's something about, you have to remember the exact words in the order. Because our hardest thing to remember always, always are the and the and the thus and the butts, just the little connected bits of tissue between you. You can remember the substantive bits, the substantive bits of information. It's those little connected bits of tissue like any black cab driver would tell you with the knowledge. It's, you can remember the trunk roads. It's the, it's just the little

tiny bits that come in between and it's a very similar skill set. There are, of course, other ways of doing it. Marlon Brando would never learn his lines. And that happens, by the way, They would simply be stuck on the actor. They would be stuck on another actor. They'd be stuck under a teapot. People do them with an earwig. There are actors who have little earpieces, little whizzies in and get the lines fed to them. Again, all of those actors, even with the wizzy, will have learnt the lines because they need to know how to say them as well.

They've got to give them that freedom. But just the memory retention. For older actors sometimes, for actors who are dyslexic, I think sometimes they just want a little aid memoir, just to give them that confidence. You know, and you see actors sometimes you'll have lines written down and we'll never look at them. Yeah. But the fact that they are there

just gives them that confidence. So like any of us learning anything, it's remembering it's not impossible. You know, then finding a route through it, which is through the actual acting, through the beats, through the emotion, finding little ways like Terry Cruz goes for a run or writing down the individual letters,

something that just absolutely cements it for you. There are some actors who will do blunt force. So Anthony Hopkins always says I will just read it 200 times I would do blunt force but that's rare It's normally you'll find some sort of technique Some sort of way of helping yourself out I have been told a million times by actors

The worst possible thing you can have is one line Like with five words It goes madam can I get the door for you Because obviously we can all learn that But because we know we can all learn that And also because it's so upset that someone's just done a massive speech, you have to win the things, say, Madam, can I get the door for you? Those are the actors who most often dry, because they just go, Madam, the do, can I,

because how do you learn, Madam, can I get the door for you? Because you know yourself, that would have been going around your head nonstop for like three weeks, ever since you got the script and you knew that, you know, Helen Mirren's about to say something. And you're going to go, Madam, can I get the door? No, yes, sorry, Haddon, let's go again. So that in some ways is harder to learn a very short bit of speech than it is to learn a very, very long bit because if you've got a long bit, you have to commit.

And if you can commit, you can do it. This short break is brought to you by British Airways. Now, there's something about watching a film on a plane that gives it a life of its own. Settling into business class with a reclining seat, a 17-inch screen, and nothing but time ahead, the choice can suddenly look rather different from the one you'd make at home. It's true, isn't it, about movies on a plane?

because you've got time to kill. And so that thing of going, when you've never got time to watch a movie, you've definitely got time to watch a movie on a plane. And literally the first thing I do when I sit down, I'm scrolling through all the films. Yes. So when I went to Australia last Christmas,

I was like, okay, conjuring last rites. I didn't get there, but it was a massive hit. And I was like, I want to see that. Caught up on anything I hadn't caught up on. It's really interesting. A few years ago, they did viewing data from all the four major U.S. airlines. And a star is born was ranked first or second.

on each one. And there's certain things that just people go back to. Crazy rich Asians is mega popular. You might do conjuring last rights for your first thing, thinking I haven't caught up with it. And then you're like, I now need to go back to something comforting. Well, it's like books and films on a plane. You know you're there for a while, so you do not want to start something you're going to hate. So you watch something that you've been waiting for, as you say, or that you've already seen before. I remember flying back from the States last time I flew back and the holdovers was on the Poo, Gemiti movie. And it's one of those movies that I kept kind of going, oh, I really want to see that, I really want to see that.

So I knew I was going to enjoy it. And I put it on. And it's still, I just, it's such an amazingly brilliant film. It's fantastic. But people get much more emotional on a plane. Did you become quite emotional? Me? No.

I tell her you became emotional, Ingrid, because she was watching, she said, again, that thing of, you just got to watch something you know you're going to enjoy. So she was watching the George Clooney, Julia Roberts thing to get to paradise. Oh, God. Yeah, I've watched that about three times on the plane. And so she's watching that. And every now again, I'd just look over, and she'd just be in streams of tears. And you'd be like, so I think you do, you know.

You butched it out through the holdovers? I've butched out through the holdovers, I did. And by the way, she's in floods of tears watching strictly. But even so, yeah, there's some, it's that idea just being uninterrupted and just be able to sit there. It's so weird to say, just to sit there and enjoy a movie. It's such a great thing. And they have a huge choice as well. There's always something where you go, oh, yes, that's exactly the size and shape of the thing that I want.

There probably isn't one perfect in-flight film because what you fancy watching at hour one might be very different by hour six. But that's part of the pleasure. There aren't many places left where you can get a few hours to yourself with no one expecting anything from you. And there's plenty to move between on British airways from new releases and box sets and classics and documentaries. In business class, Club Suite gives you your own space with a door for enhanced privacy, rather like having your own little screening room, particularly handy for a guilty pleasure or something you've already accepted. will end in tears. Sleep may win in the end, of course, in which case a six-foot-six fully flat bed rather makes the decision for you. Now to plan your next trip in business class, visit British Airways.com. Marina, a question from Andy. I've always been curious why TV shows and

films about gay male romance are so popular with straight women. Do you think there's a reason why, and is it something that commissioners still haven't picked up on? I have some thoughts on this myself, but I'm afraid we had to go to the absolute Zen master of this. And that's Jacob Tierney, who is the writer and director of heated rivalry, shall I possibly mentioned on this show before. You know, there's a lot of people more qualified than me to talk about it, but part of the discovery of the genre is that there are hundreds of these books, if not thousands. And so there is clearly something that appeals to women, especially women who enjoy romance as a genre, which is a huge portion of the publishing world is romance. It's an enormous amount of books get published

every year and do very, very well, even though the mainstream doesn't pay a ton of attention to it. I've heard a lot of different versions. I think that there is something about seeing male vulnerability that it's very appealing to women. I think that there is something about taking women out of the sexual aspects that liberates female writers to kind of explore things that maybe they would not be as comfortable with with a man and a woman in the sense of the threat of violence is removed. I think that it's important for us as men to remember how much women are inundated with sexual violence, both in their day-to-day lives and in the art that we ask them to consume. And so when you remove that from it, I think there's something

liberating about that. At least that's what I've heard from women who both write in this genre and are fans of it. I do think it is worth talking to women about this because we endlessly love to tell women what they like is not interesting. And then we love to tell women what they can and can't do and what they're supposed to appreciate and what they're supposed to enjoy, including for their libido. It's the level of control that is the attempted control over women by our culture writ large is exhausting. And I think that maybe there's an element of punk rock defiance to it too of being like men write about women all the time.

Why the fuck shouldn't we write about men? I love that. I would have to say, Jacob, thanks for being an ally. He had to say so many times, don't ask me, ask a woman. Yeah. He totally gets it. Lots of that stuff is true. I do think that women feel that the sheer kind of baggage and sexual politics of so much of the way that sex is written.

If they can remove themselves from it entirely. Just have a couple of guys. Yeah. Yeah. And I tell you something else, though, if I were straight men and I'm not, I would take pause from the fact that at the moment, male male stories are absolutely enormous. And so are stories of, I mean, you know, just sort of like just. be reductive about romanticity for a second. Basically, dragon shagging. I mean, it's so bad out there that it's not the women are just going, you know, off their own sex in these stories.

They're actually going off species. They're looking off species for their kids. I would rather have sex with a dragon. I would literally rather have sex. And if men are going to have sex, I don't want to deny it to them, but they just, they should have it with each other. Don't involve me. Now, if I were straight men, I would think about this as a cultural moment. I would think about it and think, is there a way of making it slightly better for women out there? For straight women, we're talking about here, by the way, rather than that they return to us in some way. Anyway, that's what I would like to say.

But thank you so much, Jacob, and for being an ally. No, and thank you. It's good. Listen, we knew he was around, so we thought he's the perfect person to ask. But he's quite right. Thank you so much, everybody. We will be getting together again this evening for our Celebrity Traitors' reaction episode. We're doing one tonight and Friday night as well.

Well, straight after the show. Episode 7, drama. Yes, so it's the end of Yorngate, right? Which will be very, very excited. We've waited a long time for that. Thank you all so much for listening. Everyone, we will hopefully, well, we'll see you whenever you fancy. See you later. Bye.

Unlock unlimited free grocery delivery with PC Express Pass. Shop online and get the same low No Frills prices delivered. Get your first year of PC Express Pass for just $2.50 a month. Learn more at nofrills.ca. Hold music. Not what you want to hear when a pipe dispersed and your basement is flooding.

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