The Rest Is Entertainment - Will Ross Kemp Win Celebrity Traitors?

Episode Date: May 4, 2026

Have producers made a massive casting error in the next season of Celebrity Traitors? Why is Linger by the Cranberries seeing a massive resurgence? Is Jacob Elordi a dead cert for 007? Michael Sheen, Bella Ramsey and Richard E. Grant are among the 21 stars heading to the Highlands for a new series of Celebrity Traitors. Who do Richard and Marina think will make the best Traitors and Faithfuls? The Cranberries’ 1993 classic, ‘Linger’ is everywhere right now - from Tik Tok to Hulu’s Love Story. Why is the hit song captivating younger generations? And why are record labels prioritising ‘sync deals’ over traditional promotion? Four years on from Daniel Craig’s last film, the James Bond franchise is yet to confirm the new 007. But who’s the current favourite? Why is the casting process taking so long? And Marina reveals her tip-off about a prime candidate. The Rest is Entertainment is brought to you by Octopus Energy, Britain's most awarded energy supplier. Lloyds. 250 years on and still backing the nation's aspirations. Join The Rest Is Entertainment Club: Unlock the full experience of the show – with exclusive bonus content, ad-free listening, early access to Q&A episodes, access to our newsletter archive, discounted book prices with our partners at Coles Books, early ticket access to live events, and access to our chat community. Sign up directly at ⁠therestisentertainment.com ⁠ For more Goalhanger Podcasts, head to ⁠www.goalhanger.com⁠ Video Editor: Adam Thornton Assistant Producer: Imee Marriott Senior Producer: Joey McCarthy Social Producer: Bex Tyrrell Exec Producer: Neil Fearn Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

The rest of entertainment is presented by Octopus Energy. Admin tends to require a little bit of encouragement. So submitting your meter reading now earns you a spin and the prospect of being quietly rewarded for it. Yeah, you can spin, you can win octopoints, which you can spend in the shoptopus. The shoptipus. I mean, fair play.

Well, whoever refuses a wheel and the opportunity to get something for nothing. Well, it's absolutely one of the mainstays of game shows wheels because it has a randomness to it. And I've spent like weeks and weeks sitting just working out and the wheel just go, okay, that's an extra thousand. That would be 2,000. Then you work at how many bad squares there are. By the way, there's no bad squares on the octopus one. But it's a mesmerizing thing.

So addictive. I know. Watching it. You want to keep doing it. They slow it down slightly. And then when you watch the contestants like leaning in like it's going to make a difference. And like lots of things with octopus energy, they're very good at gamifying, lots of the sort of just normal stuff that you have to do with your energy provider and getting a free spin and winning octa points. It's a very good example of that.

With Octopus, you submit your meter reading, you get a spin and a chance at octopoints for money off your bill or to spend in the most aptly named Shoptipus. Hello and welcome to this episode of The Resters Entertainment with me, Marina. And me, Richard Osmond, hello everyone. Hi, Marina. Hello, Richard. How are you? Very well. So nice to see you. It is very nice to see you. And I'm very pleased with the timing of our show this week because there was a huge announcement over the weekend, was there not?

Yes. Yeah. Celebrators, that line up. I was trying to, I was going to do a joke, but come on. Yeah, so we're going to talk our way through that celebrity traitors line up and Tilly who is going to win. Oh my goodness. Okay, you can tell me that. And we're also going to talk about Linger, a 33-year-old song by the Cranberry's, which is sort of everywhere at the moment.

We're going to talk about when a song blows up like that in that way, sort of how and why it happens. Yeah. And also, we are going to get Marina's tip on. who's going to be the new bond. Yeah, just sell shares in whoever I say, but I have got a day. There have been developments. I did my last ever House of Games this week. Oh my God.

Did you actually? And I saw Michael Sheen presenting as well. Oh, the present of Michael Sheen's House of Games. Yeah, Michael Sheen's House of Games. Michael Shee's House of Games, who is also... In Celebrity Traders. The show that is now so big that its casting announcement gets a massive... Yeah, I know, right.

And we can lead our podcast with it. Yes, yeah. And by the way, also at House of Games, Angela Rippen did an interview with Michael and myself for the One Show, of course. And it was just after we'd recorded our breakfast TV thing for our members, you know, our history of Breakfast TV. And there was an unbelievable story about her and Michael Parkinson, David Frost. And Anna Ford, all being sent to each other's salary details. And I said, Angela, that can't have been true. She said, not only was that true, she said there's so much worse.

that I could tell you. I'm not going to tell you everything she said because she said, I recorded everything that happened. She said, I've got tape recordings, I've got notes of everything that happened. If ever I write a book, then I'm going to put all of it in there. So any publishers listening,

Angela Riffin has all the stuff. Can we get, Andrew Ripper of the book deal immediately? Immediately. Because I want to hear, any breakfast TV snake pit is my favourite happy place. Yeah, but for non-members on that, essentially those four big beasts were all sent each other's salary details.

And that was just one of the mess-ups of that show. And their salaries were not the same as each other. I wonder if you can guess which gender was paid an awful lot more than the other one. It was the 80s, although even now. Okay, we better get on celebrity traitors. Yeah. Chuck me a thesaurus, because I'm going to need new words of saying incredible booking. I have to say, shout out to the people, as always, who when this list came out, said,

there aren't any celebrities on it. Okay? I know. I'm so sorry that you don't participate in contemporary entertainment culture, but you don't need to advertise it. Please feel free for us not to hear from you about this. There are celebrities on this list. Shout out to the Who crew.

Oh, my God, you can't stand it. There are celebrities on this list, and there are some absolute bangers in here. It's interesting. With 21 people, you start looking through it, and you go, okay, that's good. And then you look through it again, you think, oh, I've missed them. There were so many. Yeah, yeah. And you think of all the potential alliances and potential body movies.

How should we do it? Should we just sort of go through them? Because some people might not know the whole list, but certainly if you do know it, you'll want to know who's going to win. There's a lot of comedians. Yes, too many, I think. It's interesting that they've put both Rob Becker and Romish rang Nathan in,

who obviously do very many many things together. But I sort of feel now light entertainment, it's like Romish is now, it's almost like he's one of the building blocks of life itself. You know we're not on a planet. they say, well, there is water so life can be supported. In light entertainment now, it's like, is Ramesh on it, okay, life can be supported. Here's the problem with Ramesh is he's brilliant. Yeah. And he's brilliant at everything he does. And he's a really, really nice guy. But yes, it's one of those things that it has a ubiquity to it. I think the interesting thing

with Rob and Rommish is they think, we'll put them in. It's always fun to put a partnership in there, like a double actor or a husband and wife. I don't think enough people know they're a partnership. I don't think enough people have seen Rob versus Ramesh and those things. So I think it's just two more comics to go with Joe Lysitt and James Acaste. All very different comics. But I don't, yeah, they can't do that thing where they make one of them a traitor and one. I think it would, I actually think that's pure obvious. Yeah, I can't think, I don't think they can do that thing where they make one the traitor and one.

But the problem is because you've got nothing to hold on to in those early weeks, people would assume they've done that. Yes. Anyway, so it's slightly a hiding to nothing. I mean, Rommish would be delighted to be voted out after a day. Scott, he's so busy. But that is the thing with Romish. He does do everything, but he does everything well. Yeah.

You know, it's, what are you going to do? A-caster will be fascinating. Anyone who has a public image, which feels a slightly heightened version of themselves, is where I think James slightly does. Yes. Although it's not particularly heightened version of himself, I think it's fascinating to see them after a couple of days in that house. I think, you know, the same way that we have with Joe Wilkinson.

But yeah, I think having four male comics there, I understand why you're not going to say no to James and not going to say no to Joe and then the Rob Rommish thing as a partnership but I think actually Joe and McNally might be the most successful of those comics because I think fewer people know her I mean lots of people do know her

she's got a lot of profile in the last couple of years but I think people will really fall in love with her and I think she won't take any nonsense She could be a bit of a dark horse I think but like actually Sharon Rooney I think she could be a bit of a dark horse Yes, everyone who meets Sharon Rooney falls in up with her. Yeah, and I think she could be very, very good.

Ingrid, when the list came out, just went, I cannot believe they've got Sharon Rooney. I was like, yeah, no, I think it's good booking. She goes, but why would she do it? She is really, really interesting that she would do that, you know, to write literary novels. And then I said, I think that is Sally Rooney. Oh, my God. Yeah. That would have been the most hilarious booking of all time.

Yeah, I know. It was when I saw King Kenny. I was like, oh my God, they've not got Dalglish. Yeah. I would be unable to speak still now if Kenny Dalglish was going on it. So King Kenny is an influencer. Yeah. And it tells you about the march of time that it's acceptable to call yourself King Kenny.

Yeah. There's a new King Kenny in town, apparently. Is that okay now? Yeah, I am shocked, but apparently it's okay. I've only just got over there being a new Kylie. We've got a new King Kenny as well. Yeah, I know that all still feels sacriottish, New Kylie. So, King Kenny, a little bit in the Nico Amalana, they even do stuff together, don't they?

There are some sort of various YouTube collaborations. And one of those guys are going to have to survive the first few days if you want to go all the way. Because as we always say, this is very, very different to the civilian version because they know who each other is. And if they don't actually know who you are, then they might not necessarily think, then there is less natural deference to you than there would be in the civilian version when no one knows who. anybody is. Again, it's interesting having, in the civilian versions where you can't, to even have had one line on casualty, people think you're the master of deviousness. You have to completely hide that you ever once played an extra in something in case people are like,

they're an actor. Well, obviously here we have many actors. And we really do have many actors. We have, the CD Imri of the piece is Richard Grant. Yes, his daughter said, my daughter says, I'm incapable of hiding anything I feel about anybody, which is certainly true in my experience. But that's what you want there, don't you? Given some of the people he's in there with, you want to hear his opinion on that. Yeah. Well, I wonder whether you will, I think there's a touch of the Stephen Fry's to that booking, I must say, and to have a performance will play out. Okay, that's interesting. I feel. I think there is a, there's a central quintet who I feel the house is going to revolve around.

And that is Sheen. Sheen, obviously. From Michael Sheen's House of Games. By the way, when we did our Q&A episode the other day, and we're doing people who always get called the wrong names, and Gabby Rosal and Gabby Logan and so on. I forgot, of course, that Michael Sheen and Martin Sheen is the absolute exemplar of that.

It's in a Times headline maybe this morning. I read a Times article about this cast list this morning, we're recording on Monday morning, and it says Martin Sheen in there. headline. Yeah. Which, again, I'm not disappointed. It's Michael Sheen at all, but Martin Sheen would have been, okay.

Can you imagine? So I think there's five people in the middle of this who were the sort of, the sort of middle-aged bedrock of this thing around which the ships were sail. Michael Sheen, Amal Rajan, and by the way, all big personalities. Yeah, we knew he was on it. God knows he can't keep a secret. Yeah. Miranda Hart, who will get on to Julie Hesman Hodge.

Yeah. And Ross Kemp. I mean, that is a booking. Can I just say that Ross Kemp is a mega booking? Yeah. And that's got everything. Because you've got fame. You have got a personality type that doesn't necessarily conform to the norms.

Yeah. And you've got someone who will take the traitors very, very, very personally in a Joe Marla type way, which is exactly what you want. And also, the most recent documentary that he did, which was sort of about in cells and things like that, it's really interesting. one of the most interesting things I've seen on a documentary because kind of when these documentaries happen, they've pursued a certain line and you know what you're doing and you know what you're making really before you turn up.

In the moment, someone tells him some statistics about incels, which effectively completely pull the rug under from the documentary that he thinks he's making. And he actually, rather than say, we won't use that because unfortunately we've gone quite a long way here, he completely sort of unpicks the whole thing in the moment and says, okay, well, I'm just, changing my preconceptions completely.

And actually to do that live in the interview, you know, it's obviously not being broadcasted, but at the moment he found it out, that is somebody who actually might play the game well, because the whole problem with this game is that you get, you do go mad in the castle, you get these kind of Ede feast, and you think it's this person, it's this person,

is this person, and you can't get off it, or you don't look at the right people. To see him do that in the moment, which is very unusual for a documentary maker these days in the type of documentaries you watch, I think that shows he's quite a sort of, independent thinker. But also, who is the alpha of the house? I do think the out of the house is either Ross or Julie Hesman Houch, because she again is one of those people. Everyone knows who she is,

of course, known best as an actor, but I think people have seen her enough as herself to know what sort of human being she is. But I think she is somebody who everyone is going to gravitate towards and everyone is going to orbit around. I think that Kemp and Hesman Housge, if either of those are a traitor, I think it's, imagine if they make boss Kemp a traitor. I want him to be a Trotter Hunter personally, I have to say. Yes, yeah, agree with that. Can I just say, Jerry Hall, I love this chapter for her. She's been released from that marriage to, you know, media's messy bitch, Rupert Murdoch.

The Messiest Bitch and the business. The Messy First Story, which was about two or three years ago, all about the Murdoch succession drama. And there was so many amazing details in it. One of which was that after he got rid of her by email, many months later, she discovered that the security cameras in her house were still beaming back the footage to Fox News headquarters, and Mick Jagger's security guys have to come in and take it all out for her. Can I just say, I love this chapter for her. Run wild, my Texan Queen, you deserve this. She feels like someone, though, who, if it's not fun after 24 hours, would just go, I'm actually going to shoot off. Really? I think she feels like a trooper

who can see some really bad situations through. Oh, yeah, maybe. Listen, I guess, I guess if you can stay married to Rupert and Murdo that long, you can stick out and a... cast off for six days. They've gone in today, by the way. They'll sort of be going in as we're speaking. They're filming it this week. Bella Ramsey. Yeah. I mean, that is huge. Last of Us is basically almost the biggest show, you know, it's one of HBO's biggest shows that's ever, ever, ever been. Well, yeah, there'll be some names on this list that perhaps some people don't know who are actually sort of among the biggest names. Mahala. Mahala. I can't wait see that on a joltzlate. Cannot way. What? Like, sorry.

Just some of the letters need to be right. She is an absolute queen. I mean, I want her to be a traitor. Is it just because from industry, you want her to be a traitor? Yes. I don't think you can bring in an American and make them a traitor. Why can't you? I don't know.

I just think it feels off. Does it? Yeah. That's interesting. I think it's sort of unacceptable. I think they want to be unexpected because people have already, you know, I think that would be expected. I think they go, oh, of course they're going to make you a traitor.

Because of the role that she plays. Bella Ramsey is very, very interesting, neurodivergent. Last year, do you remember Kat Burns? Yes. It's also sort of neurodivergent. And she said it helped her to be very sort of cool and calm and much more detached. Bella Ramsey said heightened sensitivity to social cues and micro expressions. Insane levels of visual perception.

Amazing. Is the way that their particular brand of neurovisite divergence has been described, self-described, by the way. So could be an excellent player. And I think will be. We've got Jerry Hall can take under her wing, Leanne Pinnock and Maya Jammer. That's going to be a group of people who will enjoy each other's company, surely. There's so many people in this show.

Every time you look down the list, I'm still missing a couple of my favourists who I'm going to get to at the end. There's one massive favourite of mine. Oh, really? Well, listen, should we do that? Who's your favourite? There's two. There's two massive favorites. First of all, our stablemate, Hannah Frye.

Correct. I think this is absolutely great for her. I think she's about to blow up even more. Amazing. She is very much the Nick Muhammad of the piece. And also, you know, sort of in a similar role to Nick Muhammad as well. But less likely to actually maybe get in her head in the last minute. I don't know. Anyone can. Anyone can. That's the beauty of the traces. Funnily enough, the cleverer you are, the harder you fall.

Oh, for definite. For definite. And the more you're perceived as a sort of automatic authority figure, it can be. But certainly, you know, if, for example, there's a head, you know, Professor Hannah Fry and Ross Kemp are going, you know, knocking chunks out of each other across the eviction table. That I would like to watch. Well, I don't know who I'd call it on for there. No, exactly. But I can tell you that Mr. James Blanche. Correct.

What? Those are the two I was leaving. Okay. I love him. I almost want to group him in with the comedians. Perhaps we should have. Yes. I was going to group him in with the Rajan Kemp heart axis.

But I think actually that he sits somewhere outside of that. Yeah. He is, he will not get inside his own head. particularly, I don't think. No, but he will, I think, charm people. As he say, he has the capacity to be funny, but he also has the capacity to say, well, the thing about me is I'm just a simple musician.

I'm not a comedian, I'm not an actor. I'm just a guy in a castle, and this is how I see it, which is a useful way to play it. Yeah, it's been in the army, can deal with, you know, the sort of terrible light entertainment privations of this show. Yes, Ross Kent can talk to him about being in the army.

Yeah. Ross Kent can talk to all of these people about something. About, yes, absolutely. One of the people here I wasn't aware of I am now because I've looked at his work is Sebastian Croft who will bring a constituency to it. Yeah, because big in his demographic, you know, actor, musician. But as we said just before,

it's difficult when you're one of the younger people. There is a sort of natural age deference in the show, which certainly was last time, to kind of hang on through those first few days because if they don't know who you are, they're rather more comfortable with dispatching you. But then, you know, lots of people who didn't know who Kat Burns was.

Yeah, of course. And it depends what role they have within the game. Yeah. I mean, that is a big miss for me. I have to say about this booking list. You know, now I know it's not Kenny Dalglish. There's no one from sport. Yeah.

And I think that's, it's a shame they didn't have someone from sport. I might have lost a comedian and had someone from sport, to be perfectly honest. Yes, I know exactly. I mean, and by the way, because of the way these things work, they probably had one three days beforehand. Yeah. I've heard the names of a couple of people who pulled out who would have been a lot of fun, I think. But it's, I think they've landed upon a very interesting group. And there's enough

people in there, the James Blunts of this world, the Hannah Fries of this world, who you know are just going to be great characters in there and going to bring an incredible presence to it. Maybe they've got a sport backup because there's definitely one in there that I think could go to pieces and not stay the distance. So there's, there's, you know, maybe they've got someone that they're going to bring in just in case. That's interesting. Do you want to be quoted on who you think that is? No.

Okay. Okay, I got you. So I'm thinking I'm the producer of celebrity traitors. I'm not. This is a thought experiment. Honestly, I wouldn't be here if I was the producer of it. Above all you are professional. I'd be up at the Cancer in Scotland.

But if I was choosing the traitors, who would I go for here? I'd definitely go for Sheen, for for Sean, for Martin Sheen, I would have. maybe even Michael. I would go for Sheen, I'd go for a youngster, and I'd go for Jerry Hall. So maybe I'd have Michael Sheen, Maya Jammer, Jerry Hall as my traitor, something like just to start with. Just an unbelievable trio.

I cannot believe they've not worked together before. Yeah, as I say, I don't think they'll split up Rob and Rommish. I hope they don't, because it's too... Remember, these people are all entertainment literate, so they do all know about Robin Rommish for having a double act. Yeah, but I really want the two of them to... you know, suspect each other, but both be innocent. That's the funniest storyline there. Agreed. If they're both assuming that one of them is a traitor. And, you know, I imagine that

some of the buttons they will push some of the little tasks that people have to do. I imagine they were trying to turn Rommish and Rob's suspicions on each other. But is that who I would go for? I would definitely go for Sheen. Yeah. Although he'd be funny as a, you have to think who's funnier as a faithful. And Sheen would be a funny faithful because he gets. very, very, very passionate. Yeah. And, you know, we've seen his rousing speeches before. Oh, yeah.

I mean, I wanted to see him lead a Faithel's revolt. But even better doing it as a traitor. But as a traitor. I think that's great, isn't it? And also, he would sort of relish it, is the truth. Yes. It's interesting what they do. I mean, and we already know that the contestants last time were turned on to the idea that, oh, hang on, they're not going to make all the traitors, like, all white or men.

or they're just not going to do that. It's interesting whether I think they might be able to just change things and flip things a bit because anything when it's become just too expected. Yeah. Well, they could definitely do three women. Yes. For sure. Yes.

If you had Julie Hasman Hald, Gerard McNally and Jerry Hall as your traitors right from the beginning, I mean, you know, that feels potent. They could do that. I think being funny, we know as another sort of, just to go off on another tangent, Being funny we know is very helpful because it's a great deflection tool. But it's a kind of misrepresentation of what Alan Carr did in winning that show to think that's all he did because he was an unbelievable reader of each situation. And he just made it look easy, but he was a deadly reader of situations.

And so you have to actually also be that as well as just... Yeah, I think if they're going to have a comic as a traitor, I don't think they can have Rommish because they'll be aware of that ubiquity thing. And if suddenly he's right in the heart of your thing, that's an impossibility. I don't think they can have Rob because of what we're talking about is funnier and neither of them are there. Jeremy and Nally, I think they definitely could. A castor would be much funnier, trying to find a traitor. Agreed.

Than to being a traitor. So, Geron Mnallie or Joe Lyset would be the two comments you think you think might be traitors. What a great thing to be. This is as close as television ever gets to like the World Cup or something. I agree. I do think the other thing, one other thing I wanted to say, which is, that just trying to remember about what it was like watching it last time. There was sort of deference to Stephen Frye, because he said Stephen Frye,

and it was like a particular stripe of national treasure. There was deference to Jonathan Ross because they felt he was a complete sort of master of understanding the game. He'd watched every single thing, you know, that he fully understood the game. But in other ways, it was interesting because I think they slightly struggle people who are famous with fating kind of one over anyone else. So whereas Joe Marla would have been celebrated as a traitor hunter in the civilian version of the game and would have been the hero of the bar afterwards, etc.

They're not brilliant at sort of going all behind one person. Yes, because, yeah. But I love the buddy movies of it. I just keep thinking like, oh my God, imagine if, you know, like Jerry Hall and James Ake has become developer. Or, you know, obviously, James Bond and Ross Kemp just develop a romance. Please, if they develop a blunt and kemp, if they develop a sort of Marla-Mahadha-Mahad-style romance, I will be 100% here for it. Or my halle are in like Judy Hasman Powell, something like that.

Oh my God, yeah. It could be, you want to see those alliances that you have not seen before. I feel like the female side of this cast list has an awful lot more surprises and an awful lot more potential. I think the male side is very funny. And there are some great big characters there. But I think in the female side of this, there are some very, very interesting personality types. Listen, it's going to be magnificent. Of course it is.

And the lovely thing is we've got like five more years of this at least, surely. Oh, yeah, definitely. Unless this off messes it up. For us all. It's amazing how good they are at keeping it secret now. When you see how big it is and that, you know, they're at the airport, getting every photo of them coming off the planes. Well, that's why they've released it this year.

Yeah, of course, to have control. Yeah, because otherwise all you've got to do is camp up at Inverness Airport and you know every single person who's on it. Because no celebrity is being driven to Inverness unless they live in Fort William. Which I just don't think Jerry does. Yeah, I don't think she does. I believe she lives in a fort.

I do not believe she lives in Fort William. Richard, I couldn't pick it, but who do you think could win this? I mean, it sort of depends who the traitors are. But let's assume there's a 50-50 chance a traitor wins or a faithful wins anyway, which the statistics are not crazily different from. I would say, can I pick three people? Yeah. James Blunt.

I was going to say, yeah. Joanne McNally. Yeah. Julie Hesman Hulch. Those are my three. I'm not seeing anyone outside that. Professor Han to Frye will be great. But I think, I think, again, she will be,

she will be too dangerous for people. If anyone, as we know, who has recruited late to become a traitor, if it's any of those would be the strongest position and any of those could take it then, particularly as someone I think, like Julie Hesman House, especially if she's functioned as some kind of slightly mother-like figure within the kind of reality TV family. And, you know, listen, we must never bet. And just a reminder that, you know, we predicted who's going to win the last one.

And we did not predict Alan Carr, but I don't suppose anybody in Britain predicted down in car. No. Certainly after the first episode. And that's the joy of the format. Yeah. Well, I must say we will be talking about it nonstop when it's happening. We will.

Probably be in October, I should think. After the break, James Bond and the Cranberries, United at last. This episode is brought to you by Lloyds, who you can rely on to keep life running smoothly. Now, you know what isn't celebrated enough is the behind-the-scenes work that makes successful entertainment seem so smooth. You know, you go on to any sort of set, and there's the talent and everyone's having to run around after them. But the people are having to run around after them are the runners. And there is not a single successful television show that isn't powered by brilliant runners. Whenever you hear a director or actor's sake, you know, we're all just one big, happy family.

I always think, yeah, and you're the children. And the people who are like running around are actually always the youngest people on set, because runners are always really young. It's an absolute first job in the business. And the other key thing is, if the runners are good, you'd be. Don't notice them because nothing goes wrong. And it's very similar to your bank. You just need them to be there when you need them. Well, like with the Lloyd's app, you can check lots of handy things,

little details what payments you have coming up, what subscriptions you're paying for. It is this kind of helpful, smart stuff that makes 14 million people bank on Lloyds. And that's based on Lloyd's internal customer data from March 2026. But we just want to say thank you to all the runners and thank you to Lloyds. Hey, this is Michael and Hannah from Gollhangers, The Rest is Science. This episode is brought to you by Cancer Research UK. We often think of beating cancer as treatment, but imagine stopping it before it begins.

After years of work, Cancer Research UK scientists are launching a clinical trial of lung vax, the first vaccine designed to prevent lung cancer. It builds on TracerX, the world's largest cancer evolution study, which tracked lung cancer cells over many years to uncover the disease's earliest warning signs. Lung Vax is designed to train the immune system to spot these signs early on, destroying 40 cells before cancer develops. So it's not treatment, but preventative with the potential to stop lung cancer before it starts. The first stage of the trial starts this year, focusing on people at higher risk.

It shows what long-term research makes possible. For more information about cancer research, UK, their research breakthroughs and how you can support them, visit cancer researchukuk.org forward slash the rest is science. Welcome back, everybody. Now, as promised, we're going to be talking about Linga, a song you might have heard all over the place recently. It's 33 years old.

It's a cranberries song. And I think the backstory of this song was that it was one of the very first ones, if not the first song they sort of wrote. Yes, I think Dolores I read and wrote it when she was 17. Yeah, I think she'd been like dumped at a disco or something. Yeah, anyway. Which was the original title. Yeah.

It's now getting millions of streams a day. And I think it's so interesting. I want to talk about what happens. How does songs suddenly seem like they're everywhere in the air and have that big cultural moment? Given how many big songs they were in the 90s, how comes just a couple of them really, really rise to the top and become enormous hits. Yeah. A big part of it normally is sync, which. is the soundtracking of things that you might be watching or what have you. So Lingo was in,

because we should say there were bigger Cranberry's hits, which also have done very well out of sync, which is something like Dreams used to be the bigger one. Zombie are the biggest of all, probably. Zombie, yeah. And those still, by the way, have a life. I mean, I saw something in the cinema the other day and thought, all right, Dreams is back on the trailer thing. But Linga was in, Summer I turned pretty, which became a sort of huge here, and also, and this is one of the big drivers, is it was in Love Story. The Ryan Murphy thing about Carolyn Bissette and John of Kennedy Jr. So if you look, the Billboard have got a thing called the top TV songs and you can see, yeah, it's really, it's quite hard to find on their sort of website bit. And Apple actually do this, things, charts of what are the big things? And Love Story totally dominated that chart. and I think Linga was only the only thing bigger than it was Fade-In-Tam Asi Star from Love Story as well.

I didn't know they. Wow. I know. That takes me back. I know. Yeah, I know. It does take, really takes you back. But actually in the case of Lingra, a big part of speaking to people sort of all around this, a big part of it is TikTok in the case of Lingar. Yeah. There's something like stranger things where you know it's to do with sync and it's, Kate Bush. Yeah, running up that hill. Yeah. I think we're alone now. All of those things. So part of the reason it explodes is that for obvious reasons, we all know, there is so much content. There's more than there's ever been, and people are soundtracking their own lives with this stuff and posting them. And when these things get put into playlists and your Spotify algorithm notices is never getting skipped,

then they push it even further. Netflix shows help because they have the most eyeballs probably, but if you look at something that happened like, I don't know, heated rivalry, that would. which was on that Canadian stream, a crave, but it went to HBO. What happened to tattoo then, where they had tattoo in a sort of club scene, and it became absolutely huge. So talking to people who are sort of involved in this, it's really interesting. I find the moment in the drama that it's played makes a massive difference to how big the song gets.

Like the end of Grey's Anatomy, for example. That's the absolute, yeah, that's an absolute gold standard of this. somewhere I turn pretty it was really in a scene I don't know we've seen the show if you haven't seen the show it doesn't matter but it was in a scene a sort of break-upy type of yearning

that word we're going to come back to yearning it feels like we've been talking about yearning for two years but it's just the kind of big sight-guise word of the time in Love Story it was the morning after Carolyn Bessette and John F Kennedy Jr first woke up after having slept together so it was the next day

tear-jerkers really help if you can get your artist's song on a two-minute emotional scene. This is why the kind of big sync moments used to be things like the John Lewis ad or the X-Factor finale or something like the Big Brother finale used to be this kind of, so you might have a band like, I don't know, like Elbe or someone who might be sort of naturally indisposed to we say to having their music on Big Brother or whatever. But it's like, sorry, you're getting a two-minute montage of all the best things in the, you know,

the highs and the lows, it can move it to number one the next day. And I was thinking about this and thinking, oh, my God, there are certain songs I can't hear without being completely taken back to the sink moment. And actually, for football fans of a certain age, if you want to listen to Cast, walk away.

Walk away, that's what I was about to say. We're so old. We're so old. Okay, fine. Cast, far away. They played it. The BBC did a montage at the end of England's run in Euro 96 when they go out in the semis.

And I am still completely back there when I hear that song. And actually, I literally, this morning on the tube on the way here, watched it. You can see it on YouTube, we'll put it in the show notes. And if you saw me genuinely shud it here, because it's so evocative. And actually, what I'd forgotten is that Des Lynum says, you better remember where you were, where you were watching this tonight, because in 30 years time, someone will probably ask you, it's 30 years to the day now. That sync moment of cast walk away is.

I cannot hear that song without just seeing, you know, Terry Venables put its head of his hand. It's so evocative. That's good because I thought, well, I don't know what you're going to say, but then I'm going to follow up by talking about walk away by cast. Also, we have so many montages now, and ever since everything's gone digital, it's incredibly, I don't want to say it's incredibly easy to make a good run because it's always hard to make something great. But it was so skilled to make those montages, particularly at the end of tournaments,

or in the case of this, at the end of, you know, the national side's run in a tournament. and to make them and to make them affecting is a huge skill and people really look for I mean not to that one but in general you looked forward to them because they were you know, let's talk about one we could all enjoy the one at the end of Wimbledon

but also anyone listening to this who's not from England would laugh their heads off at that by the way so for anyone from England you can watch that and you'll be crying anyone else have a little look and oh my God you will love it anyway but what's happened is that because the whole business of soundtracks in general has completely changed.

In the old days, soundtracks would sell millions of copies. You've got a great soundtrack. People would go and buy all this. Now you see the film or watch the episode and you're like, oh my God, and you can stream it on your way out of the cinema or the second the credits roll. So it's difficult for record labels who are thinking how in this era where there's more content than anything and these songs can blow up from whatever.

Well, like Saturday Night Fever, the soundtrack is one of the biggest selling vinyl albums in history. So if you're that record company, you know, BGs and Yvonne Elm and all sorts of people on that, there's hundreds of millions of pounds to be made from that soundtrack of that movie. And that industry, as you say, has disappeared and needs to be replaced with something. And you've got to be very correct. I mean, in the New Devil Wears Prada, that when it becomes a sort of plot point, it's amazing. There's a Lady Gaga and Dochi sort of collaboration, but it's part of the story in a way. Well, not the sort of Doche collaboration, but the Gar-Gar bit is actually.

actually she's in it. But it's really interesting. So the record labels are trying to be sort of more creative and they're sort of creating soundtracks and music concepts themselves and then using that as a trigger or a centrepiece around which to develop a script. So it's kind of totally flipped because you might as well use the money to kind of develop things that way. Going back to Linger, I think that nonetheless, there has to be something about the song itself that speaks to the new times.

Yeah, it really does. And there is something very dreamy and wistful about the song. And it's emotionally raw and it's complicated. And again, those words, longing, yearning that we keep, I mean, they have been the words of the last two years. But there is, and I think we have talked a little bit about this before, that there is, you know, Gen Z and Gen A think there's an innocence to the 90s. And whether or not you felt that when you were living through it, they feel there is an innocence to it. There wasn't when we got knocked out of the Euros, you tell you that. There was a loss of all.

It was the end of everything. It was the moment of fall. Anyhow, it's interesting break-up songs and what's happened to break-up songs to some degree. Break-up songs these days, we know that we're now living in an era very, very much dominated by female artists. They're quite angry, break-up songs nowadays.

They often involve another famous person or a person who the audience is able to sort of pass all the lines and think it's about. There's something very different. And there is an innocent that they feel, that speaks to people in something like Linga and these songs where people go back to them. And that's why they're kind of,

it's another reason why people think that there's something pure about a time that we don't live in now. Yes, I think there's also an ambiguity to the lyrics. If you literally just cherry-picked the very small amount of that chorus, it doesn't have to be a break-up song, it can be a love song. Yeah. And if you've got a song that could be a breakup song and a love song, then everyone can use it in any situation.

People do. There is something which is never spoken about when we talk about why does something go viral or why is something so massive. You know, why does a book suddenly take off? Why does a film suddenly take off? Sometimes things are just better than other things. But we never talk about that.

We never talk about the fact that Lingo. I remember first coming up, Linger, and just right off the blocks, it was an enormous hit everywhere in the world. My brother's band Swade were doing a US tour. They tried to crack America a few times, like a lot of the Britpop bands, and none of them managed it. But Swade went over and were doing this massive tour, and they took the Cranberries as support.

And halfway through the tour, Linga went enormous massive. And they had to swap round. No. Who was, yeah, yeah, yeah. On the billing. Yeah, I mean, can you imagine? But the song hit immediately, I say, Dolores, who's no longer with us, of course, wrote it when she was 17. That band, you know, there's a reason why they've got three.

songs that got over a billion streams on Spotify. They write unbelievably brilliant songs that have no barriers to you enjoying them. And so sometimes people, you know, we're talking to Paul McCartney this week for our Q&A thing. And by the way, thank you to everyone for their amazing questions for that. But again, there's a reason the Beatles got big. They just wrote better songs than other people. I mean, it's, you know, sometimes that's the thing. when you talk to people about this,

is that they say, who are very heavily involved in this, is that all of this stuff, this kind of exhuming and revival and kind of making very current again, a song that's over 30 years old, it's all song-led and not artist-led. So actually, they like the song, they're not particularly interested in who the artist was,

which to me is sad because, I mean, and Dolores I read and was an amazing person, and it's very sad, it was a terribly sad ending, and she died at 46. not that long ago a few years, you know, probably seven or eight years ago. And again, even with something like Stranger Things, they didn't suddenly become completely fascinated by Kate Bush,

which, by the way, I mean, of all the people to be fascinated by, she's a very fascinating person. She probably loved it that they didn't. She's quite happy to just, you know, to not have everybody kind of up in her business. But sometimes you seize it, and as you say, you know, like Sophie Ellis Bex's Murder on the Dancehall, which, again, that is a sync moment.

of extraordinary, like, it's all a pump, but look what happened. It was enormous in Saltburn. And off the back of that, she is touring the US for the first time. Everything can sort of change from these moments. It's extraordinary that you can just, it can bubble back up again. But again, you look at a song, I always think the most fascinating song of a world, a sort of fascinating song is Mr Brightside, because it's been in the UK top 100 for over five years now. But Iris by Goo Goo Goo Dolls, I think is even more fascinating. That's an absolute key one. of these. Which is, I mean, that's, you know, been in the, apart from Christmases, that's been in the

UK charts for the last 80 weeks in a row. You would recognise it if you hear it. It doesn't have the word, the name, Iris in it at any point. And so it's almost impossible to sort of recall it in your head what it is. But it's one of those ones that was a staple of X Factor and, you know, pop idol and all the American shows as well. And, yeah, just one of those songs that is now going to be around forever. And that's the thing.

I think we've spoken very briefly before about the canon of classical. musical music and how that's slightly set in stone. I know things change, but you know, your Beethoven's, your Brahms, all of that lot. And that's what is going to have into popular music. And now these songs are sort of jockeying for position. And it's not going to be, albums are not going to be the canon. It's going to be songs will be the canon. Three-minute songs will be the canon. And running up that hill will now forever be in that canon because it's poked its nose above. So we'll murder on the dance floor. So we'll linger now. I think so, or Iris by Gugu Doles.

Those songs will be around for 100 years, you know, 200 years, in the same way that Mozart is. And I'm not conflating the musicianship or anything like that. I'm just talking about, you know, the art form that we have had. We now have enough of it. We can just fold back and fold back and absolutely just choose whichever our favorite bits are. And because so much music production now kind of does hark back to previous eras, you know, that idea that a song ages.

Take on me by AHA. Yeah. Which sounds, you know, you could absolutely release tomorrow. That's going to be around for 100 years. Mr. Blue Sky is going to be, you know, Bohemian Rhapsody is going to be. There's just these songs are now absolutely taking their place. It's hard for newer music to break through, of course. But I think that's where we are.

But people, it's really weird, whether or not they remember or they have some weird subconscious inherited memory of the video, which to us was iconic, but which much younger people have obviously probably never seen it. But all, like so many walking videos on TikTok are to Bittersweet Symphony, which in itself is using Mick Jagger and Keith Richard composition. But all of them, that, yeah, there's something about walking that people think, oh, I put that. This goes with this. Yeah, it's exactly right. And it'd be interesting to see if in that canon, because, you know, us growing up, the 50s and 60s and lots of the Motown stuff and early rock and roll felt like part of the canon. And it's interesting to see, actually, if they end up being part of this,

or whether that begins somewhere around the late 60s or something. We'll see. We shall see. But by large, I think this new generation are choosing the right songs. Oh, yeah. I mean, these are all really terrific. Yeah. Should we talk a little bit about the new bond,

which actually seems like cogs are starting to wear and things are starting to happen? We get asked about this all the time. And because it is obviously like the rolling. entertainment story despite it can be an incredibly low information story always at any point in British cultural life. Been a year since Amazon acquired the full rights to Bond for a sort of a billion. They'd already bought MGM studios. But Courtney Valenti, who runs film at Amazon at CinemaCon when they talked to the

exhibitors about all the big things that are coming up, she did talk about some of the big things that coming up. But she said, you know, she knows everyone's waiting to announce who's going to play Bond, but they are taking time to do it properly. Good idea. I will say they are doing it properly because it's going to be produced by David Heyman and Amy Pascal who are,

he's David Hayman's Bridget, or the Harry Potter, Amy Pascal's sort of legendary US producer. We know it's going to be directed by Denny Villeneuve. That's cool. Yes, that's good. It's going to be written by Stephen Knight. I mean, that's really cool, right?

Who was peekie blinders? You always do get help to varying degrees when you're doing a Bond film from the writers, Neil Purvis and Robert Wade, who are, exhaustive franchise experts. I think they've co-written the last seven. Again, they always do a bit of, you know, like Phoebe

Wadderbridge is writing the new Bond. Yeah. No, yeah. She, someone might do script actors or whatever. So they are, in my view, making all the right moves, but they do not have a lead actor yet. And they obviously need a long-term casting choice. Because one thing we do know is that people still seem

shock now when you say, well, there won't be a film until 2028 because you're like, well, how come there won't be? I mean, I suppose they could get it out for, what, Christmas? No, they can't get it out for Christmas next year. I mean, I don't think they could. Maybe they could. I was talking to someone, oh my God, this is a sidebar. Yeah. But a film I'm, I'd say even more excited about the Ghosts movie, which is going to get, which is, that is not taking forever. That's going to be out, I think, in time for Halloween. Oh, well, that's quite right. How exciting is that? That's incredibly exciting. This is a

slightly different kettle of fish in general. I get you. But it feels like we've been having this conversation for years. There are many people it's definitely been all the way back to Idris Elba, Tom Hiddleston, it's definitely him for a bit, Harris Dickinson, Aaron Taylor Johnson. Henry Golding. Yeah, yes,

my goodness, yeah. Rege Jean-Page for a bit, after Bridgeton for DeFernet. It's still be great, by the way. I personally think he has great sense of humour for it, and would be whatever. Callum Turner is, there's a lot of people who feel like... Calum Turner's the bookie's favourite, right? Callum Turner is currently the book he's favourite.

A lot of people feel like they're running sort of covert campaigns, like Taran Edgerton, who, very much like when you're running for Labour Leader, you just say that I'm literally the last thing I want to do is run for Labour Leader. So he said many times, you know, he wouldn't want to James. So Taran Edgerton is like West Streeting. Yeah, yeah. He could play West Streeting. Really, any of them.

So you look at things like, there's all different ways you can bet on this. No Bond chosen is higher than it's ever been. It's on about, I mean, when I last said it's morning. Like no Bond ever? No, no, they haven't chosen it yet, which is true, by the way. I definitely don't think that they have made the final decision, but I'll come to who I think they're closing in, is on 79% this morning when I was coming in on Polly Market.

Sorry, how can you bet on no one? Then I think that the market just, they time the markets, and then they say, and we just close it. I assume you mean, so if it hasn't come to a certain date. Whatever, yeah. So Callum Turner was on 10%, James Norton was on three. Jacob Laudey was on three, Aaron Taylor Johnson on two. And Cali's got it all differently.

It's got Callum Turner on 60%, Jacob Allaudy, 18%. Josh O'Connor, 8%. If you're better on Josh O'Connor to be the next James Bond, have a word with yourself. I love him. I love him. I absolutely love him, but it's not going to be Josh O'Connor. People who names have come in, Henry Ashton, you know, this guy, he's in My Lady Jane, Good Girl's Guide to Murder, things like that.

He had the sudden rush of money. And there is actual real money behind. If you look at how much has been placed on these markets, because in the old days, we used to think, yeah, these are novelty bets. No one actually walks in or goes online and bets on the next James one. I have to say, so, I mean, you can just, just the mere fact of me saying this means it won't happen. But I have heard from a number of people now that they're sort of, you know, Jacob Alordi has kind of moved into pole position. I don't think, and no one's signed anything yet. Which is interesting because Callum Turner is way out ahead.

but I've heard this, but as I say, just the mere fact of me saying it was, but anyway, here we go, let's at least treat it, let's dignify it. Yeah, too tool for Bond. Well, that's interesting because I meant you, you were approached a certain point by security services, and I remember you thinking a six-foot-seven spy was maybe not the greatest disguise. Yeah, he's a six-foot-five spy, so what would that be? I mean, and looks like Jacob Alludey. I mean, that's it. Again. I mean, anyway, I could be a spy if they needed somebody to infiltrate. the European Basketball Association.

We just get something off a really high shelf. I mean, listen, Stephen Knight, you know, your move. Just a movie about someone reaching something from a high shelf. So it's interesting. First of all, there's lots of things interesting about Jacob Allude where he's doing it. First of all, you know, it's important. Women already want to sleep with him. Now, Daniel Craig was some of the best casting of all time.

That was a Barbara Bockeley pick, and it was a real, that was a real move because a lot of people were like, sorry, who? and yeah, no, I don't say it. The second they saw the film, like, no, yeah, you're right, I do want to sleep with him. So, that, okay, people already want to sleep with Jacob Laudy. He is Gen Z alist. He's one of a few people, you would say, is definitely an alist. It's interesting that they will have, if they did do that, they've totally skipped millennials.

They'll never have been a millennial bond. Well, it's been a long time. It has, but it's interesting that, you know, when they don't get, yeah, there was never a millennial bond. But that, again, there's a franchise. If you're Amazon and you're trying to get as much out of bond as you can, then let's do millennial bond in a few years. And they will, by the way, be doing all of this.

As we all know, there's going to be so many other things. I do think they have to have this decision in place before we start seeing the roll out. They don't have to wait for the film to come out to have other things necessarily. He's 28, Jacob Allardy, so he could easily do a good 10 years, which is that's what they really want, right? They want somebody who's going to own this for a generation. He is not British. No.

But I think you can get away with it being Australia. I don't think you can have an American one, no matter how great the accent. No. Even when you get someone like Grinth Paltrow, her English accent is completely flawless. You couldn't have, you can't have the male equivalent of that. We've seen him in Saltburn. His English accent is flawless, it's fine. Yeah, there was a point where, you know, all sorts of mad names have been put out there at certain times.

Chris Hemsworth has pushed, again, Australian. Well, we've had an Australian bond before, though. Yes, we have. Lays and B. And we've had two non-British bonds, Lays and B. Agreed. I think, yeah. I just don't think you can have an American.

Oh, no, but Australians are essentially British. For the purpose of... They're not Australians. We know that. But you know what we mean by that. Yes. We have a commonality. But someone like Chris Hemsworth, who would have been totally wrong for it,

but he's also so completely associated with another mega franchise. Jacob will already be a bit of a clean skin on all of that stuff. So huge with the younger audience. That is what I've heard. I'm sure it won't, you know, it definitely hasn't been. a done deal yet. But I think that perhaps that would be their, that might be their number one choice. But again, this is, this is merely the opinion of people, not a million miles from, but. Please don't take gambling advice from this program. No, definitely don't, because it could

very well become Turner and I think he's fantastic. I love him. So, see, I think there's another name in the frame. And so I think they are going to wait till November. I think they're going to see how, celebrity plays out, and then I think it's Ross Kemp. What can't he do? As Bond. It's one of the very few professions he hasn't effectively already nailed. I would watch Kemp as Bond. Yeah.

Well, maybe in one of the spin-offs, he's not a millennial. Anyway, so we'll see where that goes, and it could very well be Callum Turner, which would also be brilliant. And then equally, it may be one of these other ones, because at the last minute, something that somebody comes through. Yeah. But I do think that they're getting quite close to that decision now. Yeah, it's exciting.

Yeah, it is. It's fun. Any recommendations this week? Yes, I do, actually. I really enjoyed Jack Loudon in a short film, which is about 15 minutes, called Vote Gavin Lyle. Okay. And you can see it on YouTube. It's directed by Anil Carrier.

And he plays a politician. It's a satire. He plays a politician standing for effectively reform. And I just feel like he, Jack Ladin, really, having spent quite a lot of time around lots of those type of candidates, I think he just somehow catches the brittleness and the fake self-deprecation and the sort of slightly disappointed venom of those particular characters. It's the most true to life that I've seen. And we're going to see lots more people standing for Parliament that are not necessarily in the traditional mould of the policy, now we live in a five-party system.

So anyway, it's the most successful distillation of that particular vibe I've seen so far. He's very, very good in it. Remind me of the name again? It's called Vote Gavin Lyle. You can watch it on YouTube. It's like 15 minutes. I would love Jack Nalden as Bond, by the way. Yeah, I know.

I think he's a magnificent. I absolutely love him. Yeah. I'm going to, well, two recommendations really that have a connection. And the other Bennett sister on BBC, which is fantastic. It's a half-hour drama. Yeah, half-hour drama. My mum is an enormous fan.

of that. And she said, you know what? I loved it. So they thought, oh, great. It's written by Janice Hadley, who we either used to be, used to run BBC 2. Never commissioned anything from me. But she's done a great job here, to be fair to us. So she came good in the end. It's really, really great. It's really good. Yeah. I remember talking, it's Bad Wolf, right? I remember talking to them when they were, you know, they were saying, oh, we're going to do something a bit different. It's going to be like a half-hour drama. And I remember thinking, huh, I'd like to, I mean, it's funny as well. But it's incredibly affecting. It's got an amazing central performance from.

Ella Bricoleri from Call the Midwife. I mean, a really amazing performance. I'm absolutely loving it. I see myself in her. And you've got Richard Lee Grant is in it. Ruth Jones is in it. It's got the cast you would want as well. So really, really enjoying that. But I'm also watching from the start of the century

the way we live now, which is the adaptation of the Trollope novel, which I just finished reading. And that's how I was saving it. And it's fantastic. David Soucher is in it. Matthew McFaghan is in it. But it also has the first ever television appearance of Killea Murphy, who was, it looks so young, is doing an English accent

brilliantly. And you take one look at the guy and think, every casting director in the world must have gone, okay. Oh, it's mesmerizing, the eyes, I remember it, so well. Yeah. Absolutely amazing. Written by Andrew Davis, really, really good. And then I noticed that both of them are exec produced by Jane Tranter, 25 years apart. So that's, that's, I loved both of them. So the other Bennett sister and the way we live now, the way we live now is on Amazon. The other Bennett sister is on iPlayer. Right.

We will be back on Thursday with a Q&A. And for our members, for a bonus episode, we will be talking about the Michael Jackson Pepsi advert incident. This is when his hair caught fire. And we'll be discussing it as a cultural moment anyway. If you want to join for ad-free listening, it's the rest is entertainment.com. Otherwise, we'll see you on Thursday. See on Thursday.