The Rest Is History - 131. Burgundy: Europe's forgotten superpower

Episode Date: December 16, 2021

Now mostly overlooked by history, Burgundy was a major political and cultural power in western Europe during the Middle Ages, rivalling France and England. How did the kingdom gain such prominence, and why did it disappear? Bart van Loo, author of "The Burgundians", joins Dominic and Tom to explain. To sign up to the brand new Rest Is History Club, go restishistorypod.com or click here. Benefits for members include an extra episode every week, a live streamed show every month, ad-free listening, and access to a Rest Is History chatroom where we'll be discussing episodes and suggesting subjects for future shows. *The Rest Is History Live Tour 2023*: Tom and Dominic are back on tour this autumn! See them live in London, New Zealand, and Australia! Buy your tickets here: restishistorypod.com Twitter:  @TheRestHistory @holland_tom @dcsandbrook Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Thank you for listening to The Rest Is History. For weekly bonus episodes, ad-free listening, early access to series, and membership of our much-loved chat community, go to therestishistory.com and join the club and was embarked to cross to Burgundy. That is the Duke of Clarence in Shakespeare's play Richard III. At the time, he is immured in the Tower of London. He's very soon going to be drowned in a butt of marmsy. And in his dream, he has this terrifying vision of being pushed off the ship by his younger brother, Richard the Future, Richard III. Terrible visions as he drowns beneath the sea.

But Dominic, we will be coming to Richard III, the myth, the reality, the princes in the tower, all that kind of stuff on a show in the new year. But for now, what I want to focus on in that quote why i chose it is how you can get a ship from england and cross to burgundy because of course burgundy yeah isn't on the coast you can't sail to dijon it's not possible absolutely not so what is going on here um well but it's burgundy it's burgundy isn't it so strange and interesting so i remember first coming across burgundy so i was at my grandfather's house and interesting. So I remember first coming across Burgundy. So I was at my grandfather's house and he had this huge pile of old encyclopedias,

kind of leather-bound encyclopedias of history. And I was kind of bored and I was flicking through them. And there was a picture taking up, they were incredibly old, they were kind of late Victorian or Edwardian. There was a picture taking up the whole page and engraving. And it was an engraving of this meeting on a bridge between, who is it?

John the Fearless and his kind of French rival, and they're having a parley, and John the Fearless is about to be butchered to death. And I thought, oh my God, this is amazing. Even at the age of sort of nine or 10, I could see this was this incredible Game of Thrones-style story, this great soap opera. I think before we get into that,

we should explain what we're talking about. But that's the thing, I didn't know when I read it what Burgundy was. Okay, so the late 14th, 15th century, Burgundy is not just the French region of Burgundy now. No. But this great agglomeration of territories that goes up to the North Sea and incorporates much of what's now Belgium, Holland, the Netherlands, all that. And it's one of the great what-ifs of history because it's an incredible process of state building that could well have seen a new kingdom emerge between- Yeah, and it's a tragedy for the world that Burgundy doesn't exist as a country, don't you?

And I guess the fact that Shakespeare is talking, so it collapses at the end of the 15th century, but still at the end of the 16th century, Shakespeare is talking about it. So it's there in Richard III, in King Lear, Cordelia has the choice between, you know, the kings of France and the kings of waterish Burgundy. And it's waterish because, you know, it's the canals, the dikes of the low country so it's an incredible story a story that is i think not widely known in england but it should be because the english are key players in this drama together with the french and the burgundians um and it's the subject of a recently published book translated from the flemish that you absolutely loved didn't you made it one of your history books of the year uh bart van louw, if I'm pronouncing that correctly, The Burgundians. A vanished empire. And do you know what, Tom?

A very exciting moment for the podcast. We have Bart van Leeuw here with us. Well, who'd have thought it? Hello. What a turn up for the books. Hello, Bart. Yes, I'm talking to you from the old county of Flanders, not far away from the Battle of Rozebeck, not far from Ypres and Bruges.

So it's the right place to talk to you about Burgundy in Flanders. Well, Bart, it's brilliant to have you on because I think you are our first Belgian guest. Our first Burgundian guest. But that's how we prefer to think of you, as a Burgundian. So could we kick off with a question from Barry Grogan, very much a friend of the show, who asked very simply, who and what are the Dukes of Burgundy? I have vague memories of them perhaps being involved in the capture of Joan of Arc. And I mean, that's right, isn't it? We'll come to Joan of Arc perhaps later. But just to begin with, who are the Dukes of Burgundy? How is it that they're

able to almost to construct this new realm? Yes. Maybe let's start very from the basics. Let's take a look at the map of Europe at the end of the Middle Ages. And on the continent, we see two powers. We see the French kingdom and we see the Holy Roman Empire. And between the two, there's a border. Likely, it's going to rest forever.

And we in the north we exist we have flanders we have brabant we have zealand and holland but either we belong to france or either we belong to say germany the holy roman empire and then nobody saw it coming in the 14th 15th century we see um we see come there is there is the the, how do you say it, the apparition of a new state between those two superpowers. And that is the fruit of the labor of those forgotten dukes of Burgundy. And it's incredible, just to put it in another way. I am a 40-year-old Dutch-speaking Belgian. I am unexplicable without the dukes of Burgundy because what they created is the Low Countries,

the Nederlanden. It's a cradle of what become further on Belgium and the Netherlands. And famously Belgians. You know, Belgium is divided between Flemish speakers and French speakers. And that, I guess, also is a legacy of... Yes, and of course it is.

And they have been overlooked in national history, in Belgium, in Holland, in France, in England. The Daily Telegraph, they put a telegraph, they put a title on the review of my book. I love the title. We forgot the Burgundians! Exclamation mark. Bart, do you know, you'll be very pleased to know this,

I studied them at school. Did you? Yeah, I did. At school? I mark. But Bart, do you know, you'll be very pleased to know this, I studied them at school. Did you? Yeah, I did. At school? I did. But at what age? 17 to 18. At A-level, Tom?

17 to 18? Yeah, I did them at A-level. Wow. So you know all about this. I know all about this. I know all about this. I've been going through my A-level notes. You don't know as much as Bart.

I mean, you haven't written a book about it. No, that's possibly true. I mean, Bart should't written a book about it. No, that's possibly true. I mean, Bart should give you a quiz or something. So, yes, yes, I will ask him some questions. So, Tom, you will agree that... No! No! I don't want a quiz. This is like this awful kind of flashback where you have to go and answer an essay on Hamlet and you haven't done

the revision. Yes, yes. Oh, that's good. It's good. I like that. But you will agree, Tom, that this history of geopolitical evolution of the highest order, in the same time, it's also a Game of Thrones story. It's about banquet stakes and battles and murders and adultery and bastards. And the only thing it's schizophrenic kings, aggressive dukes go on. And the only thing that is missing are dragons. But for a good reason, because this is Game of Thrones that really happened.

But you say Game of Thrones, I mean, there are dwarves. Yes, on very own dwarves. There are giants. There are kind of incredible feasts. There are chivalric orders. I mean, and it has to be said that there are basically four dukes. They all have brilliant kind of soubriquets, and they're all massive lads i mean there is no

getting away from it so let's start with the first one let's go to the very beginning so bart i think in your book you kick off with the battle of a great moment in english history the battle of poitiers where we wipe the floor with the french why does why does that matter for burgundy this is 100 years war isn't it? We should just say. It's the Hundred Years' War. Edward III has claimed the English throne and his son Edward the Black Prince. Yes, it's the Hundred Years' War and normally every Englishman should know about it.

Do you have a stopwatch? Maybe I can try to explain the Hundred Years' War in less than one minute. Go for it. In France, the stock of royal successor was exhausted. There was only left a woman, but she was married to the king of England, who became just because he was sleeping in the right bed with the right woman,

king of France. And the French didn't like that. So they invented new game rules. The power cannot be given to a woman. And that the English didn't like. And they invaded France, conquered one thirdthird, two-thirds, almost the whole kingdom. How many seconds? That was about 30.

I mean, you've got extra time. You do what you like. Let's go. Because we talk about 100 years, but at that moment, people didn't were aware of that. It's not that some Englishman was saying oh it's year 17 we we have 83 years to come no and and at the end it it lasted 116 year but nobody dared to call this war the 116 years war because it's not so sexy so we are on that battle of poitiers in 1356 in france they have completely forgotten about it

because, of course, you won. It was Chrissy. You have Agincourt. You have Poitiers. In France, it's overshadowed by another battle, the Battle of Poitiers. That's my first quiz question. Which Battle of Poitiers they talk about in France?

Oh, Charles Martel. Of course, 732. They talk about that all the time. But we are in 1356 and John the Good, I don't know why they called him John the Good because he was a complete mess. But he is too enthusiastic and he's there with the best trained army of Europe.

He cannot lose this battle. But at the end, we see the English, the half of his army is deserting. So the English, they are fighting themselves away to John the Good. They can ask a lot of money if they get him. And then, very important, it is the first moment of glory of our first founding father, Philip the Bold. And Philip the Bold is just a little guy.

He has 14 years, just about 13, 14 years old. And he's transforming himself into a military GPS. He's saying to his father, look out from the right, look out, beware on the left. And so he's able to kill some English soldiers. But it's impossible. At the end, feet were being broken, arms chopped off, entrails spilling from open bellies. The group around the French king was shrinking by the minute. And so at the end, he has to surrender to, can I say so, perfid Albion, as they would say later on.

You can't say that on this podcast. No, you can't say that on this podcast. Yes, I don't know. But you were on a French podcast yesterday, and you mustn't get them muddled. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Were you saying that kind of stuff on the French podcast that you were on a French podcast yesterday, and you mustn't get them muddled. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Were you saying that kind of stuff on the French podcast that you went on? Yes, but it's another.

We had quite laughs. We are just starting, and we laughed because in France, I'm a Francophile. I'm known as a Francophile. But when you are talking on France Culture, nobody is laughing. They're very serious. So I was there just to make also, we can be enthusiastic about history. It's just very important to learn things

and laugh at the same time. But that's not very French. So I understand it is very English. When I see that very famous journalists and writers are writing about my book, not just little articles, but all pages. So you see that English, they like the narrative history. So I'm becoming a little bit Anglophile. I'm so glad to hear that.

But also, Bart, presumably the reason the French went laughing was because they'd been humiliated because their king had been captured, taken to the Tower of London, and they had to pay an absolutely extortionate ransom. But as you say, so Philip, who comes, he gets given the name the Bold. The Bold. Philip the Bold. The journalist. His bravery. The chroniclers in French, they searched something positive. So they named him Philip the Bold because he saved his father on the battlefield. But then he's still the Benjamin of the French king.

How does he get burgundy and that he owes to the plague it is the then the the the duke of burgundy is also called philip it's i'm so sorry everybody they're all called philip it's a lot of complicated but we can forget about him very quickly because he's killed by the plague. And he has no sons, no daughters. So the Duke of the Duchy of Burgundy comes back to the crown of France. And John the Good says, now I can thank my son because he saved me at the battlefield of Poitiers. And he says, here, there you go, Burgundy. And so you see that our first founding father is really a man of his time.

His name, he owes it to the Hundred Years' War and his land to the plague. So, Bart, let me just interrupt you. Yes. He has been given the Duchy of Burgundy. Yes. So the Duchy of Burgundy is basically Dijon and the area around Dijon. Dijon, Beaune, Autun. It's the wine area. So in England, we would know that largely because of wine. I'm going to jump on that because when you say Burgundy in France,

in Belgium, even in England, they think wine and eventually mustard, Moutarde de Dijon. Well, let's look into that because it was Philip the Bold himself. He is banning the Gamay grape to the south. It becomes the grape of Beaujolais. And he's instoring the Pinot Noir, the quintessential grape of Burgundy. And he does that in 1395 with his big Ordonnance du Vin. And then later on, at the same moment, he is improving the production of making mustard. I'm not going into details. So if you think Burgundy, you think wine, you think mustard, you should think Philip the Bolt.

Okay, that's a lesson to our listeners there. And Bart, I have to say that that is part of what I love about this whole theme, is that, as you say, I mean, there's a lot of fighting, of murdering, of backstabbing and all that kind of stuff, but there is just so much food and drinks and feasting. It's just great. So he gets the title of Duke of Burgundy. Yes. How then does he get his hands on the Lowlands? Yeah, because he's going to marry Margaret of Flanders. And she's the richest heiress of Europe.

And it's incredible because it was also the English king who wanted to marry Flanders. But the English kings, they always win on the battlefield. But when it comes to marrying... The marriage bed. The bedchamber. Then the Burgundians, they win all the time and so it's it's the 19th of june 1369 and philip the bold the mighty duke of burgundy is coming to gant is is going to marry the richest heiress of um of europe and we know that just before his wedding

he's taking a bath and we know that he sprinkled himself with violet perfume. I like those details. He looks through the window and see how the most illiterate counts and dukes of Europe strut across the church square like peacocks. But he knows that a few minutes later when he's going down, he will show up as the best dressed man in Europe

and all the best smelling compared to him and become great crows. So I like to describe that. Flanders is very important. It's like the... You say in your book, you say the Silicon Valley of the Middle Ages. Yes, it is that. It's the

richest country of Europe. What is it that makes it so rich and advanced? Because it's the woodcloth industry, of course. There we get England peaking, of course, and the wool of England, very important. And there is a demographic boom. I just give some figures. In about 1300, there are in Ypres,

20 kilometers from where I live, there are 30,000 people living there. In Bruges, 45,000. In Ghent, almost 70,000. And just to make it very clear, at the same moment in Amsterdam, there are only just 1,000 people living in Amsterdam. So I like a lot telling this. So the only city in Northern Europe that's larger is Paris.

I mean, these are larger than London. Yes, but it's only Paris. The rest of France is empty. I mean, these are larger than London. Yes, but it's only Paris. The rest of France is empty. And what do we have? Ghent, Bruges and Ypres. It's just one day walking away one city from the other. So it's together.

It's bigger than Paris. But it's beyond that. They've got all kinds of financial innovations. They have the origins of what in French they call the bourse. So basically they're trading stocks. They have guilds. They have the arts. They're inventing oil painting, aren't they?

Yes, we can discuss a long time. We should talk about Jan van Eyck at some point, I think. But it is so that there is a lot of money in Flanders, and Philip the Bold, he will do amazing stuff with that. To begin with, he will build a monastery near Dijon called Chamolle. And now it's getting very interesting because to decorate Chamolle, he's inviting the biggest artist from the north to Dijon. Let's talk about sculptor Klaus Sluiter from Harlem. Let's talk about a painter called Johan Malwaal. He's the first...

Malwaal. Malwaal. Malwaal. That's a silly name. It's not my fault he's called this way. Sorry, it just sounds... Yes. Yes, I was the first king of England called.

It was a strange name. If you talk about... Athelstan. Athelstan, nothing wrong with that. It's a very sensible name. That's an excellent name. What are you talking about? Athel-weird, perhaps.

We've got to stop having these Belgians on our podcast, Tom. Insulting our kings. But those... Johan Malwaal, he's the first Holland painter we've known, thanks to the... How do you say it, the accountancy of the Dukes of Burgundy. There is the painter Melchior Broederland,

he's the first Flemish painter we know by name. And now it's very interesting because I say the first, yes, two times I say the first. We are witnessing the birth of art history of Belgium and of and of the low countries but not and that's very interesting in the low countries in dijon and that's very interesting so we have all those artists they're coming from the north from holland from zealand from uh brabant from flams they're coming to dijon where they are talking their um their own Dutch, middle Dutch, their own middle French. And they're talking and working with each other in that famous place called Chamonix.

And there we see for the first time in history, life in action, the concept of the Low Countries. We, dear Dominique, dear Tom, we are born in fine arts, in the arts. We are born in fine arts. And this is such a stimulating idea, provocative idea, that I would really completely understand that now you all heave a sigh of arousal. Arousal. The very thought, arousal of that thought, becauseal of the fact of that thought because it's incredible in our history art precedes politics isn't that a great idea of origin in england cannot say that uh well no we can't i'm very i'm very happy very happy to concede that clearly the low countries in this period,

I mean, it's the great motor of civilization, of finance, of everything. Capitalism. Capitalism, of everything that is kind of going to turbocharge the early modern period in a way. And the Dukes of Burgundy are presiding over this. So Philip the Bold, I mean, he's become the most powerful figure, presumably in France, because John the Good dies. You have Charles V and you have Charles VI who goes mad. He thinks he's made of glass, doesn't he? Yes.

And Philip basically becomes the regent. Yes, he is the king. You can say he's the king. He's the king. He's the regent. But he gets all the power and he can use the money of Flanders and the money of France. So he can do whatever he wants. But Charles VI has a brother, Louis, the Duke of Orléans.

Yes. And this is seeding a problem, isn't it? Yes, because now, yes, that's the problem. It's because after Philip the Bold, we should say, when he dies, there is the sculptor that I named a few minutes ago, Klaus Schluter, who will carve in alabaster, he will carve some little figures, those famous pleurons who will carry the grave of Philip the Bolt. And dear everybody who is listening now, please, when we are done,

take a ticket to Burgundy and go to the Museum of Fine Arts and kneel before those little figurines of alabaster. And you will see how those figures, they are coming to life. Before your eyes, you will feel how the alabaster begins to breathe. We will try and put that on the tweet that we put out. Yes, you should go there.

But then, yeah, he's dead. John the Fearless, his son is coming on, but he's just the grandson of the king. He's not the son anymore. So he's far away from real power. And the real power now is going to the brother of the mad king, Louis of Orléans, and he's going to kill him to be in power again. And that's what's happening in 1407. So John organises that, doesn't he?

He organises a sort of series of hitmen. They attack Louis with axes, is that right? But isn't there also a detail, Bart, that John thinks that Louis of Orléans is sleeping with his wife? Isn't that right? Yes, but that's a rumour that is running. We don't know if it's right, but that's very interesting because it makes those dukes and those kings,

and the first times those dukes, people of flesh and blood. There are a lot of women in this story. There's a lot of adultery. There's a lot of bastards. And we like that. Of course, we like that. We understand because they were traveling a lot. Of course, there was a lot of bastards.

They were traveling all the time. Would we have done better? It's not hard to answer that question, isn't it? I'm sure I would have been in a monastery. So probably. Well, maybe not yeah well maybe not he definitely would so so john so john the fearless and he gets his name doesn't he because he's actually been on a crusade a disastrous crusade to try and stop the turks from yes from capturing constantia he watched um watched didn't he while everybody else was killed it was it's horrible and we should say that it's it's a

kind of european coalition and he is the leader, the military leader and the English, because we have to talk also about the English they promised to come but they didn't show up thank you very much we knew it was going to go wrong but he gets this name, Saint-Pierre Fearless Jean Saint-Pierre, Jean de Réz we've had Philip the Bold, now we'veierre, Fearless. Jean Saint-Pierre, Gains on the Rays. We've had Philip the Bold.

Now we've got John the Fearless. And John the Fearless commissions the assassination of Louis, the Duke of Orléans in Paris. And Louis leaves a son, Charles, who, and am I getting this right? And I hope this isn't confusing the listeners. He is the son-in-law of Bernard, Count of Armagnac. And so this kind of basically civil war in France that starts to tear

France apart is between the Armagnacs and the Burgundians. Yes, it's between the French called the Armagnacs and the Burgundians. And this is important for English history because as France starts to tear itself to pieces with the

Armagnacci Orleanists on one side and the Burgundians on the other, in 1415, England's most formidable military leader. You don't like him. You don't rate him. Well, we're not going to get into that now, but he's a formidable military leader. Lands in France and wins another stunning victory at Agincourt. It is.

So this is part. So when we talk about Burgundy, basically, it's a kind of three way swirl, tangle, battle between the French, this emergent Burgundian state and England. Yes. So, and because there is that civil war in France, the English, Henry V, he can come from Normandy after Agincourt. He can easily come close to Paris. And then the enemies, the internal enemies in France, they decide we have to make good, we have to make peace. And they are going to organize a peace conference on the bridge,

one of the most famous bridges in French history, also a forgotten bridge. But it's in Montereau, 100 kilometers on the south of Paris. And you have to see, you have the French Armagnac delegation on one side, the Burgundian with John the Fearless on the other side. They come near to each other and then john the fearless he's really a great prince he um he goes down on his knees and then he will be assassinated as a as a duck hey there will be the acts of treason of france on the on the skull of it will create a a hole oh you say the hole on the skull. It will create a hole.

Oh, you say it, a hole in the skull. Yes, a hole in the skull. And it's in that hole that... That the English come through. In England. I remember that from A-level. You should go to Montereau. The bridge is still there.

Now it's a concrete bridge, of course. And that is very important. You have to look for just a little signboard saying that the Duke of Burgundy, it's just very little, that he was killed as a dog in September 1419. So when you get back at your feet after reading that little board sign, you realize that you are standing in the shadow of a huge Castrian statue of Napoleon. France summarized in one page. Well, there you go.

So French. Is it not important that the person who is seen to be behind this assassination of John the Fearless, and it's kind of like a mafia sequence. So the Duke of Orleans has been murdered. Now John the Fearless has been murdered. But the person who is seen as being behind it is the dauphin the son yeah he's present the son of charles the sixth of france the heir to the french throne and so the burgundians in the wake of john the fearless's assassination blame the french monarchy and there is an

alternative king in the form of Henry V waiting to take over. Right, stop. Tom, the producer told me two minutes ago to take us into a break. You derailed that by talking too much. So we're now going to take a break to have some adverts. Although, of course, if you're a member of the Restless History Club, you won't be getting the adverts. And what insane value that membership of that club is, isn't it, Donald? What is it, £6 a month?

It's incredibly cheap. I mean, that's nothing. Anyway, that's the advert for our club. Right, we're going into the break, and then Bart will come back and he will talk to us about a very exciting man, Philip the Good. entertainment it's your weekly fix of entertainment news reviews splash of showbiz gossip and on our q a we pull back the curtain on entertainment and we tell you how it all works we have just launched our members club if you want ad-free listening bonus episodes and early access to live tickets head to the rest of the entertainment.com that's the rest is history uh unless tom derails this again uh we are talking about

the burgundians we have seen off philip the bold and john the fearless so we're now on to number three philip the good we are in what 1419 and bart? And Bart Van Loo, Mr. Burgundy, the Edward Gibbon of the Burgundians, is going to take us through it. So Philip the Good, you describe him in your book as an erotomaniac. Oh, yes, yes. Incredibly oversexed is the title of one chapter. 26 bastards. 26 bastards. But that are the official numbers.

So unofficially, it should be 73 i think but he was traveling a lot as i said 73 that's almost as many is that what happens if you travel is that i mean you've mentioned traveling already is this just a sort of what is this about traveling and bastards i mean is that just an inevitability i don't but how could you explain it they didn't show each other very much, the Duke and his wife. A girl in every trading centre. I have to say that my wife, she called me yesterday, and I'm doing a Burgundian tournée now in Flemish and Dutch theatres. And she said, Bart, I don't want to bother what you're doing,

but you're travelling a lot now. Oh, no. Oh, dear. Those telltale words. what you're doing but you're traveling a lot now which oh no oh dear don't those dread those those telltale words okay if he's going around cheating on his wife and having loads of bastards why is he called philip the good he sounds like the good philip the good that is very it's centuries later that we call it good so that's it's it doesn't because it's that's a posterior uh way of seeing things but we have to imagine Philip the Good. He's 23 years old. He's in Ghent in the Prinzenhof.

And then he hears about it. It's a bishop. He's knocking on the door. He says, your father is being killed in the bridge of Montereau. And he's there with his wife, his wife, Michelle of France. And they faint. They can't accept what happened. They can't understand

what happened. And you should know that he's married to this Michelle de France and that she's the sister of the crown prince who commanded the murder on the bridge of Montereau. Just if you imagine what those family parties are going to be afterwards.

Christmas will be a bit difficult he when he awakens up uh after being fainted the first thing he cries he's screaming to his to his wife he's he's he's yelling michelle your brother killed my father well it is shakespeare but in real life and now now it's up to him. Hey, he who will organise the most exquisite banquets and tournaments, who will be the most important founding father of the low countries, the man who will create the golden fleece, Philip the Good, the man who six centuries

later will make it to the cover of a book. True fame. That's a very, very good part. Well done. So looking at Philip the Good, very good. Very good, Bart. Well done. So looking at Philip the Good, could we do it in two parts? First of all,

could we look at his engagement in the Hundred Years' War? Because as Barry Grogan said, this is the Joan of Arc sequence and so it's probably something that people in England would be interested in. And then could we look at

the splendour, the tournaments, the dwarves, the chivalry, all that kind of stuff. So we'll come to that. But first of all, in the wake of John the Fearless' murder, Philip the Good

signs the Treaty of Troyes. The Tricherie, as the French still say today. No, as a sensible rapprochement with the rightful King of France, Henry V. Yes, and now you can put some trumpets. It's possible because Henry V

will marry Catherine, the daughter of King Charles VI, after the death of whom he will be the next king of France. Henry V laughed up his sleeve. He had spent three years of conquering Normandy and now in one day France is being dropped in his lap. So you should put some English trumpets now

okay Jack if you could have some English trumpets so the Burgundians entered the Hundred Years War basically on the English side and Charles VI the Mad King, dies. His son, Charles VII, has been dispossessed and basically gets pushed south of the Loire. He's desperately struggling to keep a hold on this kind of

rump of France. And it's at this point that a witch appears. Yeah, definitely a witch. A sorceress. A sorceress. An evil sorceress known to posterity as Joan of Arc. Joan of Arc. So Joan of Arc with her

necromantic powers. Tom Lett, Bart, tell the story. Sorry, sorry. I'm so excited about it. Tom, let Bart tell the story. Sorry, sorry, sorry. I'm so excited about it. He can't stop talking, Bart. So Joan of Arc saves all your from the English attack. And then in due course, she gets captured by Burgundians.

And what do the Burgundians do with her? It's still going on. I don't have to say anything. Bart can leave. I mean, sorry. I'm getting excited. But what I like to say is that she's doing that enormous, gigantic, historical trip from Don Rémy to Chine, where he will convince the French king that he will give the military elite of his army to her. It's incredible. It's something we can't understand.

It's a story. It's a story tale. I don't understand it it's it's it's it's it's a story it's it's how would you say the story tale i don't know it's a fairy tale it's it's incredible to to understand uh and she is doing that and then she will it's she will uh conquer orleans that the french always talk about and now we have zemmour in french in france he's still it's incredible but he's uh he's putting again french uh joan of arc in the at the first place now but he's putting again French Joan of Arc in the first place now. But that's another story. We're not going to talk about Éric Zemmour, and we should cut this out of the podcast. No publicity for Éric Zemmour.

Okay, forget him. And then she will conquer everything we know about it. She will go to the Sacre of the King of France in Reims. She realized it. And then we have Charles VII. He's being crowned and sacred as the new French king. And then it will be, as Tom already announced, it's by Compiègne that the troops of Burgundy will capture Joan of Arc.

And Joan of Arc will be led to Philip the Good. It's incredible. You have two of the main, the most important people of that century. They are facing each other. And thanks to God, we have the chroniclers. The chroniclers, they tell us everything. They tell us that there are

200 squirrels in the clothes of Margaret of Flames. If we want to know anything, we can check it out. But there, there's nothing. They don't say a word about the meeting between Philip the Good and Joan of Arc. That's amazing. I think she, she standed up to him. I think she maybe spook up against him. Do you think it's because of shame? Do they feel embarrassed that they then sell her on to the English who burn her? No, I don't think so. Because Philip the Good, he's just thinking,

what can I do? And he is having trouble with England again at that moment. And for the woolcloth industry, it's so important that the relations, the economic relations with England are fine. No, excellent. So it's just, how do you say it? We call it, it's like selling a cow.

It just sells Joan of Arc to England. And we know the Englands are the bad guys because it's the English people who burned Joan of Arc. Well, I don't think that's, I mean, steady on. Yes, they did it. Calm down, Bert. Do you know why they did it? Because she's a witch. Because they want...

But she isn't a witch. Even Philip the Good didn't think she was a witch. He doesn't think about witchcraft. She's kind of the Greta Thunberg of the 15th century. Yes, in some kind. And so the English, they will burner just to prove that it's a witch who helped the French king to his

throne. It's only about politicals. That's everything. And that's... If you can't stand the heat, don't meddle in politics. I think listeners should be warned that that, of course, is very much a Belgian perspective on...

And therefore not necessarily I think listeners should be warned that that, of course, is very much a Belgian perspective on. And therefore not necessarily to be taken entirely seriously. So this witch is so Joan of Arc, the witch is burnt. But then it all goes wrong for England because the Burgundians treacherously jump ship in 1435. They go back on their treaty with England and sign up to France. Yes. That essentially dooms England, the possibility of England holding on to France. And that's the end of the, it's almost the end of the Hundred Years War, who will follow in 1453, a little bit later on.

But it's right it's the end of the English power in France and that's what the French forgot because they're always talking about the treason of the Burgundians but 15 years later

Philip de Goutte he's forgetting about it he throws the English outside of the Good, he's forgetting about it. He throws the English outside of the country. He's thinking about power. It's what we call a cynical way of

trying to get in power. He's moving between France and England, weakening them both so he could be the first man in Europe, and he could go on by puzzling together the low countries. At this point, he has this realm, which basically goes from the low countries.

So it's expanded, hasn't it? It's basically modern-day Holland, Belgium, Luxembourg, down into kind of sort of central-eastern France, i.e. Burgundy. But he's also got the most glittering court in europe he's got these absolute economic powerhouses of gent and bruges so is he basically the top dog in europe at this point oh yes he is he is because he's weakening france he's weakening um england and he's the the great great Duke of the Occident,

as he is called. And he wants to be a king, like his son further on wants to be a king. They will almost, one centimeter of that, they will succeed almost, but they will fail eventually. But he's the number one in Europe. And he wants to show off.

So now we get into the banquet. So Bart, could I just read an extract from your book? Yes. Which I enjoyed so much, I wrote it down. And this is a description of a typical Burgundian banquet. The cook stuffed bellies with strings of sausages that spurted onto the table like grandiose rosary beads when the belly was cut open. They decorated bustards with precious stones, dressed hazel grouses in golden habits, served pork in the shape of a fish,

fixed a cat's ears on a hare, attached a chicken's head to a rabbit's body, or cooked a dozen gigantic eggs in pork bladders. Is that how you still eat today, Bart? Hi. Oh, there are readers who try to make those gigantic eggs in pork bladders, but it's very complicated. I would love to go to a feast like that. But bladders. But it's very complicated.

I would love to go to a feast like that. But somebody could try. Oh, it would be amazing. It would be amazing. And so there was also, how do you say it, a capon dressed in armor sitting astride on those roasted pigs stuffed with those little sausages. And that was carried by four Hungarian dwarves into the...

Okay, so now the dwarves. So let's get to the... Talk us through the dwarves. Why the obsession with dwarves? I don't know why. It's just they bought them in Eastern Europe. And it's incredible. You see them for the first time at the end of the 14th century.

They were going on in 1430 with the marriage of philip the good then you see them also in 1454 with the banquet of the pheasant and they're and they're often called hans so that is uh no hans is a giant because you have a dwarf and a giant and the giant is called hans and i think he's going on for almost 30 or 40 years of banquets. So he's like a professional banquet generation. And he's a giant. And he's the guy who leads in an automated elephant

with, is it a dwarf on top who's symbolising the Church of Constantinople or something? It's the most beautiful wife, but in real, it was a man who was changed into a woman. So yes's it's it's incredible you've also got at one point a wild boar being ridden by a gnome i said they were massive lads i mean you get a fire-breathing peacock you get a gigantic pie

with 28 musicians in it it's it's and now that's a lot of fun and god knows that i like but you have to ask one question why did they do so that's the question to ask why for the past because we are we explained a hundred years war so we have the english and the france they have become a pale become a pale copy of their ancient power they are tired almost passed out there is a power vacuum and the burgundians want to fill that up but they are very well aware of the fact that there are no kings they are just dukes so they jump in the vacuum with pomp and circumstance with medieval bling bling so that everybody around only could say one thing that is what real kings are about those dukes are really royal right and if they hadn't made artworks of their feasts and banquets in dutch we should have been looking

for another word to talk about our burgundian pleasures we say in dutch my father is a real burgundian and it means that he likes eating, drinking, feasting. And having fun with dwarves. So these dwarves, sorry just to say. Tom loves the dwarves. But I'll tell you why. I'll tell you why. Because when I did A-Level, I read this famous book

by a Dutch historian, Jan Huizinga. Of course. In English. I should say Huizing, Jan Huizinga, which in English, Huizinga, sorry, is translated into English as The Waning of the Middle Ages. And there was a whole thing about dwarves in that. So there's Madame d'Or, the blonde dwarf of Philip the Good, who was made to wrestle at a court festival with the acrobat Hans, who I guess is this giant.

At the wedding feasts of Charles the Bold, who's Philip's son, Madame de Beaugrand, the female dwarf of mademoiselle of burgundy enters dressed like a shepherdess mounted on a golden lion larger than a horse i mean it's all it's on one level completely odd but on another kind of magnificent well that's what it's about though isn't it about a display of magnificence as bart said that's all about status right yes just to that's what it's about, though, isn't it? About a display of magnificence. As Bart said, that's all about status, right? Yes, just to show off. And it's so you have, then that is, it's little big history. You get little anecdotes, and they are fun. We are, we're talking and laughing about them. But it illustrates the political powers moving during the Hundred Years' War. So that's the little big history. La grande petite histoire est ce honoré de Balzac. And that's what I like doing in a history book.

But there is one other thing, and you mentioned it very fleetingly, Bart, and that's the Order of the Golden Fleece. Yes, yes, yes. So the Order of the Golden Fleece, so you're talking about how the Duke of Burgundy is not a king, but the Order of the Golden Fleece becomes the preeminent chivalric order in the

whole of Europe, doesn't it? Yes, it's sending out an international message. So it's a chivalric order. Everybody knows about a chivalric order. Normally only kings have them. And he's sending out an international message. It was a message laden with brocade, velvet and jewels. But that made it no less heartful thumping of the burgundian nose

at france and england and the fact he was saying without bathing a night that he took his place beside the kings of england and france and that he was thinking maybe of becoming king himself yeah and and so it's it's it's it's it's it's a chivalric order but it's also political play and to this day, I mean Elizabeth II our queen in the UK is a member of it well that's because it's taken on by the Habsburgs isn't it

they basically inherit it so it's Nicolas Sarkozy see, yes he's a member of it too do you have aspirations of being a member of it, Bart? Of the Golden Fleece? I think it's impossible. You should be a leader of a country or an aristocratic...

You need to carve out a kingdom in the Middle Era. Maybe the Légion d'Honneur in France. It would be nice. But France already gave me a French woman, so that's even better so dynastic dynastic power building going on let me wrestle this back to the narrative so we've had Philip the Bold

John the Fearless, Philip the Good dies in 1433 and he has succeeded admittedly slightly confusingly by Charles the Bold so we've got another Bold though that's only in English, isn't it? It's not in French. Yes, it's Charles le Temeraire.

It's a better name. We should have called him Charles the Reckless, I think. That would be better because the bold, I'm sorry, it's not good. Okay. So Charles is very different from his erotomaniac father. He's very sort of repressed and violent, isn't he? He obviously has some kinds of hang-ups and issues.

Maybe he's homosexual. We don't know. He doesn't have any bastards, just one daughter, and that is maybe his biggest political failure. Right, because it's at this point that Burgundy... Am I right in thinking it's about this point, that if you think of it as a sort of trajectory, Burgundy has peaked and is about to dip.

Is that right? Yes, but it's peaking still the first 10 years of Charles the Bold, Charles the Reckless. Because, let's put it this way, we have Burgundy in the south, the old duchy. And then Philip the Bold and Philip the Good,

they put together the low countries in the north but it and burgundy the old duchy became a kind of satellite because it's it's not relied to and then philip the bold in 10 years time with a lot of conquering stuff he's going to to to combine those two um territorials with with with Alsace and everything German and French and parts of France and Germany. He will conquer them and then you have one little, how do you call it?

Ein Mittelreich of Deutsch. The middle empire. He made it but he made it too much with a kind of hubris. So he finds his death in the snow of Nancy, where he's beaten up by the Swiss.

But the Swiss were sponsored by Louis XI, the French king. The universal spider. Yes, the French king. The universal spider. Yes, the universal spider. For the French people, it's like winning the World Cup of football, of soccer, without being there. They just sponsored the Swiss to do the dirty job for them.

And then, what happens then is that after the death of Charles the Bold, Burgundy becomes, how do you say it, with a giant on wooden feet? I don't know how you say it, with a giant on wooden feet? I don't know how you say it. On clay feet. Feet of clay, yeah.

Feet of clay. So at that point, after his death, Burgundy becomes a colossus of clay feet, on clay feet. And so France and the Holy Roman Empire, they are eager to reconquer what they lost. And they're going to fight up. And they're going to, for instance, everything in the South, they to reconquer what they lost and they're gonna fight up and they're gonna for instance everything in the south

They will reconquer so the old Dutch of Burden gate It's going back up my friends. Yeah, but in the north they don't succeed Thanks to Mary of Burgundy and Maximilian of Austria so the northern part the low countries will still go on about a century and There we have the real heritage of the Burgundian era. It's that part, because Burgundia itself,

it becomes a part of the French crown. So, Bart, Mary, who in English is known as Mary the Rich, I don't know if she is in... Yes, yes, yes, Marie de Rijken, Marie de Rijken, yes. So, Mary the Rich, who is Charles' only surviving child, as you say, marries Maximilian of Habsburg,

who then becomes emperor. And it's through that line that Emperor Charles V, Philip II, in the 16th century, inherit the Low Countries, which will, with the Reformation and so on, lead to kind of religious wars and, in the long run, the emergence of the Dutch Republic. And the Spanish Netherlands. And the Spanish Netherlands, yes.

And what will become afterwards will be Belgium, of course. That's right. And I describe Charles Lecun, as we call him in French. How do you say him? I mean, we say Emperor Charles. And I describe Charles le Quint, as we call him in French. How do you say him? We say Emperor Charles. How do you call him? Charles V?

Charles V. But you also have a Charles V in England, so there is no... No, we don't. We only stop at the second of Charles's. Yes, of a Charles V. And I describe him as the last Burgundian because his ultimate dream is to be buried in Chamonix next to the pleurons carved in alabaster by Sluiter next to Philip the Bold and John the Fearless. And it's the biggest frustration of the man who almost has all Europe and the half of the world in his pocket. He wants to be buried as a Burgundian Jew,

but that will not happen. So that's interesting part. So in other words, for Charles V, so a man who basically owns much of South America, who's the richest man in the world, probably the most powerful man of the age. So for him, the Burgundian heritage really matters. Is it the romance, the glamour? What is it about Burgundy? Because he was raised by his aunt, Margaret of Austria. We should call her Margaret of Mechelen. That should be better.

She was never in Vienna, for instance. She raised him in that Burgundian spirit of beauty, of propaganda, of literature, of good eating. And he loves it. And it will stop when he dies, when then we have Philip II, that very severe Catholic, not a party man, it's over. Not a friend of the show.

He's not talking Dutch, he's not talking French anymore. It's the end of the Burgundian low countries of the Burgundian era. It is the end of, you say, my book. So at that point, economically, because we haven't massively talked about the economics of it all in this episode. So at that point, Bruges and Ghent anyway have lost their primacy to Antwerp and Amsterdam. Is that right?

Yes. Why does that happen? Well, that has to do with Maximilian of Austria. So we have Bruges and Ghent are the superpowers when we talk about cities in the Middle Ages. But then we have two things. And then you have to help me first in English. We have the problem with the Zwin, that is the water which relies Bruges to the sea. It's drying up.

Can I say it this way? Yes, it's drying up. That's the first reason. And the second reason is that there is, when Maximilian is coming, is saving Flanders from France after the death of Charles the Bold, but it's a kind of absolute power. He installs it in Flanders, in Brabant. We don't like that here. So there is a kind of civil war going on between Ghent, Bruges and Maximilian.

But Antwerp chooses the side of Maximilian. So after that civilian war, he almost obliged the salesman from Bruges to move to Antwerp. So we have the drying up of Zwin. We have all the salesmen and women, salesmen at the time, going to Antwerp. And then we have the rising of Antwerp. And that will go on for less than a century. But then we have the religion wars, the Catholics and the Calvinists.

And then Antwerp will go down and it will be... Amsterdam goes up. Amsterdam will take advantage of that. So Bart, just to end, that's kind of an amazing tour of this fascinating and unjustly forgotten period of European history. Two questions. One from Tom Flanagan.

Could the Low Countries be seen as the successor states to the Duchy? And a more specific one from Patrick Kennedy. To what extent has Burgundy influenced the identity of Belgium? A lot of questions. The first, of course, it is. When we talk about Burgundy now, we talk about wine. We talk about Jan van Eyck. We didn't talk about Jan van Eyck. We should do again. Great altarpiece again. We talk about art, but we should talk, and we never talked about it, about that the Low Countries is really, it is the most visible heritage of the Burgundian era.

And I think that explains maybe the success of my book in our country, because we forgot about it. Because for reasons of national novel, I don't know if you have that concept in England, the national novel, a national history, a national story. Yes, we talk about the separation of the North and the South as the beginning of our national history. And there was that Burgundian golden age before. And it was that golden age that created the low countries who split it up afterwards. And then the other question, is it about Belgium? Yes, does it influence Belgium? They didn't create Belgium. but without the Burgundian

dukes, we never could have invented Belgium in 1830. And it had a lot more to do with Europe, I think. Because we have to imagine Philip the Bold in his fairytale palace in Brussels with a big bag, and in that bag

all those countries and all those duchies and counties that he conquered those countries he and all those duchies and counties that he did he conquered and he really really fastly he was aware of the fact that it it's when you put a lot of countries in one bag you don't create automatically a sense of unity i should just should whisper one name europe it's a european problem avant latre. And he's dealing with it like Europe has done it and has to do it again by reforming on a jurisdictional level, monetary. He creates a euro avant la lettre, a monetary union. I always say the monetary union. Monetary union.

So that is very interesting. We see a kind of, yes, it's a kind of European way of sorting out problems. But quick question, interruption. So the implication of what you're saying is that Burgundy, he's trying to create an artificial state. Yes, it is. So does that make it inevitable that it will fail, do you think? I don't know. In the beginning, England was also an artificial state.

You get to fight to put different people together who didn't want to belong together. It was in Germany. It was in Italy and Germany. It lasted for more than 1,000 years before they really got together. So all states are in some way artificial. Only when they lasted long enough, it becomes like it's natural. Okay, so I think the last question

before we finish is from Denver Brito, who just asked, do you think Burgundy had a real shot at becoming independent? If Charles had been less bold, if Louis had been less of a spider, if the ever-acquisitive Habsburgs hadn't managed to acquire

the Burgundian inheritance, could things have gone the other way? Could you literally now be a Burgundian? Oh, yes, I am. I am a Burgundian? Oh, yes, I am. I am a Burgundian. I feel Belgian, Flemish, Brabant, Holland. I'm married to a French woman who was born in Burgundy. I'm a Melange.

I'm a Burgundian Melange and I'm proud of it. But yes, that's counterfactual history. What if not to mention the name Uchrony? And of course, we all could dream about that middle Reich. No, no, middle Reich, that's so German. That middle empire in Europe between France and Germany, a country where they speak Dutch, where they speak German, where they speak French.

They would have a shot if Charles de Boel was, if he would have made some boys, if he would be as patient as his father. But that's so difficult to predict. Do you regret it then? Are you sad? Every Sunday morning a bit. I regret it. But we mustn't face history with regret.

I think that's not a good way to look at it. But every Sunday morning a bit, I do. I should say that I'm very, very... Such a sad note on which to end. Yes, because the Burgundians almost invaded England. It was Philip the Bold. He parted from the Flemish town of Slas in 1386. And it's among the most spectacular pages in my book.

And though impressive and spectacular, it's a failed invasion. But I'm so glad that 635 years after the failed Burgundian invasion of England, the Burgundians finally crossed the Channel. And I should say you better keep a good watch on those dukes. But before you know, they will take over the whole country. Well, a terrifying note on which to end. A warning. end. A warning from across the sea. Bart, thanks so much.

That was an absolute torture force. And it's a brilliant book, your book, The Burgundians, A Vanished Empire History. A great Christmas present if you're looking for Christmas presents for people who are interested in history. And I think also, you know, it would hugely encourage you to diversify your Christmas feast, wouldn't it

it would yes full of great great cooking ideas yes a good banquet rabbits with cats heads and all kinds of mad stuff hungarian dwarfs yes yeah and dwarfs of course what's a christmas feast without a dwarf um so but thanks so much uh and uh thanks everyone for listening and um we will be back next week for two very, very festive shows. We'll see you then. Bye-bye. Thanks for listening to The Rest Is History. For bonus episodes, early access, ad-free listening,

and access to our chat community, please sign up at restishistorypod.com. That's restishistorypod.com.