The Rest Is History - 133. Christmas churches

Episode Date: December 23, 2021

Fan favourite Rachel Morley from Friends of Friendless Churches is back to count down her top ten churches with a festive connection Go to restishistorypod.com to access bonus episodes, an exclusive Discord chat community, and to listen to the entire archive ad-free, *The Rest Is History Live Tour 2023*: Tom and Dominic are back on tour this autumn! See them live in London, New Zealand, and Australia! Buy your tickets here: restishistorypod.com Twitter:  @TheRestHistory @holland_tom @dcsandbrook Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Thank you for listening to The Rest Is History. For weekly bonus episodes, ad-free listening, early access to series, and membership of our much-loved chat community, go to therestishistory.com and join the club. That is therestishistory.com. Tom, does it ever strike you that some of our listeners may be driving along, going somewhere for Christmas? Driving home for Christmas. Driving home for Christmas, very nice. Listening to this podcast and thinking to themselves, my partner loves this podcast,

but I haven't got them anything for Christmas yet. What can I do? And I don't know what to do. Do you have an answer? Can you help these people? Well, I have an amazing announcement to make, which will end, what am I going to get my Restless History

loving partner for Christmas, Misery? Because what you can do is you can go to restlesshistorypod.com and there, under gifts, you can purchase your loved one a membership of the Restless History Club.

And you can do that right up to Christmas, can't you? It's not like it won't get delivered. I mean, it will get delivered. Dominic, this is the amazing thing. Not only can you do it right up to Christmas, but you can specify that it gets delivered to your loved one on Christmas Day. By Father Christmas. It couldn't be more festive. That's incredible.

And what do you get as a result of this? You get an incredible array of bargains and benefits. Do you like that? Well, maybe you'd like to list them, Dominic. You've forgotten, clearly. So you get to listen to the rest is history and no ads. You get a bonus episode, Tom. You get a bonus episode.

You get a bonus episode every week. Every week. And if you sign up to become one of the Athelstan members. Oh, no, but also, Dominic, you get a live episode once every month. Once every month. We just did the 60s, in which I did a brilliant impression of Bob Dylan. Yeah, and the people won't get that if they don't sign up to the club. But if you sign up to become an Athelstan member,

you get a party. You get a party and you get a personalised message from us. Yeah, you get personalised messages, parties, you get all kinds of treats. It's just insane value. Perks. Yeah. And it's what...

So the ordinary membership, am I right in thinking it's only £6 a month? Only £6 a month. Incredible. Absolutely incredible. I think we're basically giving it away. Well, anyway, that's Christmas. Sorted.

Yeah, sorted. It is. It's Christmas. I mean, effectively a gift wrap for you. So don't delay. Go to restishistorypod.com. If you've got a membership already, buy another. Or buy them for neighbours and people at work and stuff.

Or possibly for passing chimney sweeps. Yeah, exactly. Urchins. Lean out of the window and buy them for neighbours and people possibly for passing chimney suites yeah exactly urchins lean out of the window and buy them all membership don't bother with turkeys buy the membership of the rest is history it'll be the best christmas ever god bless us everyone Hello, welcome to The Rest Is History and the second of our two festive episodes. Dominic, in the first episode, it was all about, it was all the Christmas carol. But for this second one, as a top historian of modern Britain, you would confirm, would you you not that it is very much a tradition that uh popular formats when it comes to christmas kind of put a bit of holly on a bit of sprinkling of snow and give it a festive spin they do they might go to marbella for a

christmas special exactly that kind of thing or florida or something like that but we're not going to do that because one of one of the popular formats that we've had this year is uh top tens so we've had top 10 eunuchs we've had top 10 mistresses we've had all kinds of things like that but i think it would be fair to say that probably that the most popular episode that we did with that top 10 format was with Rachel Morley, who runs the charity Friends of Friendless Churches. And she did the top 10 British churches. She did. And actually, you know what? Tom Christmas is about family.

It's about, you know, overlooking the slights and snubs that have piled up over the decades. It's about overlooking all the things that divide you and the hatreds and resentments that have festered for so long. And that's why it's nice for me to have my sister-in-law on the program. Fan favorite. Yes.

So we can again pretend to bury the hatchet for the next hour. And actually, Rachel's coming to us for Christmas Day. Are you still planning to come to us for Christmas Day? I'm coming to you for Christmas Day. I've actually spent the last 10 Christmases with Dominic Sandbrook. So there you go. Oh my God. Is that true? Yeah. That's a terrifying fact. I know. We do our own little podcasts on Christmas Day. Yeah. How exciting. But actually, from our point of view, the excitement of this episode is that, Rachel, we set you the challenge that you had to give us your top 10 British churches in the space of an hour. And I think it's fair to say that...

I did it. Fine. You just, well, kind of, kind of. Time management is not on your LinkedIn page. But it was very, very exciting. And so basically, you've very kindly agreed to come back. And we're going to replay that with your top 10 festive British churches. Christmas churches. How exciting. Christmas churches. The churches that have the most kind of festive connotations. And again, we're going to see if we can do it within an hour.

OK, let's try it. Stop talking. Let's go. Yeah, enough flam. Let's get on. Well, I thought of something, actually. We. Enough flam. Let's get on. Well, I thought of something, actually. We should just say Christmas is a time of giving, Tom. And if there's a charity that you would like to give to this Christmas, apart from just don't engineer hedgehogs and all that stuff, which charity will you be donating to? Well, I've already mentioned it.

Friends of Friendless Churches. Yes. Don't donate to rival church charities. Donate to the Friends of Friendless Churches. Okay. Promotion over. Rachel, go. Okay, great. Fine. don't donate to rival church charities donate to the friends of friendless churches okay promotion over rachel go okay great uh fine so it is my top 10 christmas churches uh i would probably say top tenuous christmas churches so kind of ten tenuous tenuous yeah that's very good it's supposed to be a joke come on that's top's top quality. Great. Thanks. Fine.

Anyway. Okay. I'll get straight into it. So the first thing is, let's face it. So at Christmas time, that is when most people go to church, right? I mean, really. Even the statistics tell us that. And it's mainly all about candles and singing and all of that.

The music is, you know, it's kind of, it's dark and light. It's the wonder and the awe and the kind of sombre and joyousness of it all. It's the birth of our saviour. But as you're out there and you're singing along to Handel or Hayden, I think it's important to remember that these men themselves weren't saints themselves. So Hayden, for example, he wrote Masses for Advent. He was expelled from St Stephen's Church Choir in Vienna for cutting off the pigtails of the other choristers. That's bad.

It is pretty bad. It gets worse. In between his temper tantrums, Handel hid in dark wardrobes and quaffed champagne. He did. In the early 20th century, Peter Warlock, I've just broken my pen, Peter Warlock, who wrote Bethlehem Down,

he was famous for these notorious carouses. And one thing he liked to do in particular was disturb the local Baptist chapel by driving around outside naked on his motorbike. Oh my God. Was that a sort of sectarianism? He didn't like Baptists? Or maybe he just liked being naked on a motorbike.

I don't know. Quite cold though at Christmas, wasn't it? Very cold. Yeah, I don't know. If you have at Christmas, wouldn't it? Very cold. Yeah, I don't know. If you have an accident, it's a hard one to explain to the emergency services. Yeah, exactly. But for me, best of all, is Thomas Weeks.

He was the director of music at Chichester Cathedral in the 17th century. And even if we don't know it, we regularly perform his music at Christmas. It's kind of a routine sort of thing. So Hosanna, Son of David, Hark all ye lovely angels above, all this sort of thing. This was all his music. But in the 17th century at Chichester Cathedral, he was fined for urinating on the dean from the organ loft. At Christmas? At Christmas.

And constantly, loudly blaspheming during the services so number one music at Christmas Thomas Weeks Chichester Cathedral I think I think that's a Christmas tradition that should be but I think it's funny he was only fined for it he didn't even lose his job what would he have had to do to... I've lost his job, I know. I should say that that anecdote is particularly... It came from my friend Robert Busiekiewicz, who is a composer in Toronto. So thank you to Robert for that. That's a good one. That's a great anecdote.

And he was allowed to carry on composing, was he? Yeah, no problem at all. Why did he do it? That's the question. Why? Well, I mean, I don't know. The blaspheming does seem weird when you're writing Christmas carols. So he's not like an question. Why? Well, I mean, I don't know. I mean, the blaspheming does seem weird when you're writing Christmas carols. So he's not like an atheist or something. Or a, you know...

Is he drunk? What's the motive? Yeah, I'd say probably a drunk. Okay. Yeah, okay. Well, that's also very festive, isn't it? Yeah, exactly. Getting drunk and urinating over a congregation?

On top of your team. That's lovely, yeah. It's all part of the festive tapestry. Yeah, yeah. It's all part of the festive tapestry. Yeah, exactly. You've just had your Christmas lunch. You didn't do that at the Friends of Friendless Church's lunch, did you? I did not do that

at the Friends of Friendless Church's Christmas lunch, no. Although we did have some nice wine, which was good. Okay, good. Thanks. That's good to know. Great, yeah. Anyway, next one.

So that was the first one. Wow. Number one. That was ridiculously fast by your standards. I know, I know, I know. But there are some long ones. So I thought I'd, you know, I opened it by being, you know, light and dark, you know, fast by your standards. I know, I know, I know. But there are some long ones. So I thought I'd, you know, I opened it by being, you know, light and dark, you know, sombre and joy.

So there's long and short. Anyway, there we go. The next one's long. Right. Okay. You opened all of this by talking about giving. Christmas is all about, you know, giving and donations to charity and all. And churches are absolutely about that.

So there are, you know, benefaction boards. They hang in churches all across the country in life and death. People wanted to donate to their local church, to their local school, the almshouse, or most commonly towards the poor. And, you know, I could be cynical and say that their motives were to guarantee them a place in heaven afterwards, but maybe that's a bit mean and maybe they were just very nice, generous people, but, you know, maybe not. Anyway, but some of these boards make specific reference to Christmas. So one example that I really love is at Holy Trinity Blatherwick in Northamptonshire.

And here, Mr. Thomas Coles, who died in the year 1684, he left a sum of money, which was forever to buy a plum pudding for the oldest poor men in the parish on Christmas Day. Isn't that nice? That is. That's kind of scrooge-esque it is lovely and do they still do that no oh that's one of the things because like forever is a pretty like loose term i think but equally equally um another christmas one which is not far from you dominic in south lee and oxfordshire i know you don't at all. Don't be funny. That's what I ask. You don't know. Dominic, do you know it? Are you lying?

I've seen it on road signs. I don't know the church. I mean, of course I don't know the church. Anyway, there's a lovely church there called St. James's. Lovely place. But in there, there's a benefaction board in the North Isle and in it, again in the 17th century, John Hart left £50

intended for it to gather interest to buy coats at Christmas for the parish poor forever. That's nice. I was taught by a man

called John Hart who was the first ever mastermind winner. Wow. There you go. That's good. Rachel, do we know,

is this request still going or is that being cancelled as well? All cancelled. All over. That's a shame. Yeah, I think, yeah, it's interesting because a lot of these so anyway a lot of these things they do say forever and uh yeah how can the church get out of that though i mean well the money just runs out you know right yeah bad investments yeah invested in the south sea bubble or something yeah exactly yeah exactly. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Northern rock.

So while, you know, the plum pudding and the coat at Christmas, those sorts of things were all, you know, those are all lovely. Some of the charity was conditional. So one of the churches that we look after is St. Elu's Llanelliw in Powys in the Black Mountains. Stop laughing, Dominic. didn't stop laughing dominic um and in 1773 walter watkins left 10 shillings to be given to two of the poorest children in the parish yearly and forever but there was one condition they could only be lawfully begot so okay so is that a problem in wales rage what are you trying to say no i'm not saying that it's a problem in Wales, Dominic. I'm saying that, you know, it was conditional.

He didn't care whether they were very poor. Because arguably the illegally begot, unlawfully begot, would require them. Correct, correct, correct, correct. Yes, exactly. Anyway, but the tradition of giving in churches is more than just all those individuals that are memorialised on these benefaction boards. And most churches had poor boxes or alms boxes, and most of them were inscribed urging passersby to remember the poor. And really, for centuries, these poor boxes were society's main source of poor relief. So two of the earliest poor boxes in Englandland um date from the mid-14th

century and they're still found on holy island on northumberland but most yeah there you go tom great yeah but most of the surviving ones uh which are still in use date from the 17th century so from here this is chris this is where the christmasy bit comes in again so uh boxing day it's been a tradition in the UK for centuries. And though it only officially got that name in the 1830s and it didn't become a bank holiday until the 1870s, it is celebrated on 26th of December, the feast day of St Stephen.

And he was an early deacon who was charged with taking care of the poor. That was his thing. He got stoned, didn't he? Huh? Stoned to death. He did, yeah. Christian martyr. Exactly. But the 26th of December, that's fine. The 26th of December was the day that the rich boxed up

these gifts for the poor of the parish. And it was also a day off for servants when they received a gift box for their Christmas gift box from their employers. And in turn, they would meet their families and they would exchange boxes. So it was like, you know, Christmas, Boxinging Day thing but churches played a really important role in this Boxing Day tradition so coins that were collected in these alms boxes throughout the year were held in the box and it was opened on Christmas Day and then on the following day Boxing Day the money was

taken out and distributed to the poor so isn't that lovely so some of these alms boxes are really cool and some of my favorite ones are in Norfolk. And they kind of, I have a thing for donation boxes. I have an Instagram page called Church Donation Boxes, if anybody would like to follow me, where I take pictures of donation boxes in churches. But I really like them. But there's some really interesting ones.

And there's my number one, number whatever, two, carved is, it's Watton Church in Norfolk and it's this little guy and he's got like it's a little man and he's carved and his hair is kind of all like straight lines

streaky down and he's got a little sorry you can't see me he's got a little hand out like this and you put the coin into his hand and then it drops down

into a little bag and into the core of the money box and I love that it's such how old is that? 17th century. And is he almost like a little gnome kind of

figure, Rach? No, like he doesn't have a funny hat and beard and stuff like that. But you know, he's like a sort of comical figure. Is he or is he a serious figure? I mean, he looks really happy and jolly and like with his hand out like, oh, put a coin in my hand sort of thing. But I love it

and you can see all the wear kind of from where the coin went on his hand, like oh put a coin in my hand sort of thing you know but I love it and you can see all the wear kind of from where the coin went on his hand like you know where all the paint is sort of chipped and the wood is kind of gnawed and stuff

so I love that so anyway boxes donation boxes donation boxes are really cool huge part of Christmas huge part of Boxing Day

a brilliant one to be found in Watton in Norfolk very good so that's number two that's number two brilliant okay so we should try and find a photograph of that

and put that up yeah Rachel will you tweet us pictures and all that sort of stuff I will sure yeah that's fine no problem okay

are you ready yeah number three okay number three as we approach Christmas I and many other people

always think of M.R. James yes very good Rachel I told you to do this. I know you did. Dominic, I was supposed to tell people. I would have done it if you... I would have done it even if you didn't tell me. That's a lie, Tom. That is not true. Although

I will say that I have to credit my love of M.R. James completely to Dominic because I'd never heard of him until he started showing me some ghost stories and frightening the life out of me. He did. We took Rachel when she was quite young, Tom, to a play in London called Ghost Stories, my wife and I. And it was a surprise,

wasn't it, Rach? It was like a surprise treat. And we went around the corner and they saw the front of the theatre and it said Ghost Stories. And Rachel's face fell like a stone. It was like the blood drained. Because you're very easily spooked.

I'm very easily spooked. Were these based on M.R. James? No. They were based on... Were they based on like role-playing? on M.R. James? No. They were based on... Were they based on like... Because M.R. James, we should say, shouldn't we? Yeah, sorry. M.R. James.

Go on, Tom. Tell us who M.R. James is. I can tell you. All right. Yeah, you're the guest. I'm the guest. Yeah, thanks. And I've got the notes,

so I might as well, you know, use them. So, okay. M.R. James, he was a dean and provost of King's College, Cambridge. He was the vice-chancellor of Cambridge University., he was a dean and provost of King's College, Cambridge. He was the vice chancellor of Cambridge University. And he was one of the most distinguished scholars in the world for his work on manuscripts. And it was kind of late 19th, early 20th century. That's when he was doing all his work.

But really, it's for his ghost stories that he's best remembered. And he started writing these ghost stories while he was at King's and after Christmas Eve services at the chapel, he would invite a group of, a select group of students, his friends, his colleagues, back to his room to hear one of these ghost stories that he had written. So that is M.R. James. And they're always about kind of antiquarians who go and uncover strange things in churches and buildings.

Kind of find whistles and things. Right, and then they unleash a curse and then there's like a scratching at the door or a figure on the landscape. Exactly. So in the collected ghost stories of M.R. James, Daryl Jones has written this introduction and I think he writes the most succinct kind of summary

of James's style kind of really brilliantly. So he says, In a typical M.R. James story, a bachelor don or antiquarian scholar discovers a lost manuscript or artifact which unleashes supernatural forces, causing him to rethink his comfortable assumptions about the nature of reality.

That's good. Very good. It is. So that is basically like, that is the plot of nearly every single M.R. James story. But James himself is sort of this person because he himself, in the early 1900s, discovered a manuscript fragment that led to extensive excavation at the Abbey ruins in Bury St. Edmunds. And it led to the discovery of 12th century graves of 12th century abbots

that had been lost since the dissolution. So, you know, so he was, you know, so he was actually kind of living this life himself, really. He was this bachelor, Don, you know, antiquarian scholar. He was this person. So he's, you know, a lot of it is kind of autobiographical. My favourite Edward James story is The Treasure of Amethabas. Tom, you don't know it.

Dominic, you think it's good. Well, I might do. Remind me of it. I'm sure it will come back. It's a scholar of medieval history. And he tells a rector this tale of he's searching in an Abbey library and he found clues that lead him to the hidden treasure of this disgraced abbot. Basically, he finds a code in the stained glass and it leads him, it tells him where the treasure is hidden.

And it's so cool. Like, I love that. I love that kind of, you know, the deciphering all the codes and stuff like that but I said at the beginning that you know some so much of it was autobiographical so M.R. James actually is the scholar in this story so he was cataloging the glass from the German abbey at Steinfeld and so upon the dissolution of that abbey a lot of the 16th century glass was brought over to East Anglia, and it's in lots of East Anglian churches, but a huge amount of it went to the chapel at Ashridge House

in Hertfordshire, and now a lot of it is in the V&A, but actually M.R. James was the guy who was cataloguing this glass at Ashridge House, so he was actually working with these fragments, so he was directly inspired by the objects he was working with.

M.R. James's last story that he wrote only about five months before he died is called A Vignette. He didn't especially raise it, but it's thought to be the most kind of autobiographical of all of his stories. And it's all about a child seeing a spectre or a monster in the garden of a rectory that he lives. And that was at Great Livermere in Suffolk, where he grew up himself. James, he used characters from the gravestones, the names on those gravest um at great livermere in suffolk where he grew up himself james he used characters from the gravestones the names on those gravestones at great livermere many of his stories so there's um mrs mother soul she's in the ash tree there's mr gaudy in mezzo tint but james himself is buried at the back of saint john's cemetery in ethan and it's really I find it so sad because I think he's

so he's his stories are so popular and so loved and he's just got this simple little headstone that just gives the date that he was a provost

at Cambridge and Eton and nothing about you know anything other of his work and it's lost at the back of the cemetery completely overgrown

and you really have to like dig your way around to find it. But that's quite fitting, isn't it? It is fitting. I was just thinking the same thing. A lost tomb. I know. You really have to know what you're looking for. I know, but anyway, I feel like it's a bit sad that, you know. Okay, so is that number three?

That's number three, yeah. Oh my god, good god, Tom. So... Is the next one a long one? Yeah. Let's take a break now then, Tom. We should take a break then. Because then, Rachel, you've got a massive challenge that you've got to get seven in half an hour. Same jeopardy as before.

It's exactly the same story. Yeah, it is very exciting. We were being too jovial at the beginning. We should have wasted time. I don't think the listeners will think it was a waste. I think they'll think it was time well spent. No, I think that's a fair point. But it's definitely kind of festive jeopardy.

Okay, let's get on with the ad. So we'll get on with the ad. We'll do this very quickly, and then we'll see you how it all works. We have just launched our Members Club. If you want ad-free listening, bonus episodes and early access to live tickets, head to therestisentertainment.com. That's therestisentertainment.com.

Welcome back to The Rest Is History. Now, it's that time of the week when we like to talk about our friends at the online magazine UnHerd. U-N-H-E-R-D. That's unheard.com. Yeah. Pushing back, as they always are, against herd mentality and encouraging independent thinking.

And, Tom, do you know what UnHerd have on their website this week? I do, Dominic. There's an excellent article by the Reverend Giles Fraser, one of Britain's very topmost vicars, called Secular Christmas is a Lie. And do you know what he says? Well, that sounds very strong.

What does he say? He says, only its Christian understanding makes sense, which I completely agree with. Yeah. How come you didn't like the article? Well, do you know i did i wrote it for unheard last year and i was entitled the myth the myth of pagan christmas

oh my word you're not telling me that giles fraser is stepping on your toes no i didn't i didn't think i don't think of vicar i mean i'm treading on the vicar's toes uh but it's like a slightly different perspective um so my perspective was that uh you know the argument actually that we talked about with ronald hutton in our um episode on paganism the idea that christmas is a kind of a christian reworking of a primal pagan festival i disputed that so that's right you don't agree with that at all do you no that was very much my noise just phrasing clearly so listen i'll tell you what i think people should do i think a lot of people should

should it says here gift i don't use the word gift as a verb um i think they should give unheard membership to a friend or family member for christmas do you think that's a good idea tom i think it's a brilliant idea because some people people may know somebody, he says here, who would do with confronting some different perspectives. Well, I mean, Giles Fraser's not going to be encountering different perspectives as he reads your article, is he? Or vice versa. But other people may. But once you become part of the unheard herd,

then there's safety in numbers. But if you're not part of that herd, and if you know people who are not part of that herd, they may, in the nicest possible way, benefit from questioning some of their certainties Then there's safety in numbers. But if you're not part of that herd, and if you know people who are not part of that herd, they may, in the nicest possible way, benefit from questioning some of their certainties. And I think unheard membership could be for them. Don't you, Tom?

I do. And there's a special offer which brings an annual subscription down £10 to only £39. That's nothing. And they'll throw in an unheard bag along with it, immune to herd mentality. It says that on the bag apparently yeah it does let's hope you don't get photographed with a lot of other people with that bag that'd be disastrous dominic you already made that joke i know but it's good so good i made it

twice okay so um if you want to take up that offer and remember that's uh it's down 10 pounds at the moment um fabulous offer unheard is a wonderful site full of amazing stuff uh and not just by um me and dominic uh you can visit unheard.com to find out more unherd.com welcome back to the rest is history uh we are once again in jeopardy territory rachel morley has seven churches to do in half an hour or so, Rach. So go. We're going to talk less and you're going to talk more.

Go. Okay, great. So Christmas break, it's all about a time for overeating and watching films, right? So there are lots of cult classics that people watch year in, year out. Miracle on 34th Street,

It's a Wonderful Life, Home Alone, Die Hard. For the Die Hard fans out there, there's a scene in heidi lake church which in real life is a highland lake community church in denver colorado or some people might like chitty chitty bang bang that was a christmas movie in 1968 if you're a chitty chitty bang bang fan you should go to saint james's burton lazars in leicestershire that's a very fine norman church

that actually once homed one of England's first leper hospitals in the 12th century. But anyway, in the churchyard you'll see the Zabrowski family grave. Count Louis Zabrowski died aged 29. He was a racing car driver and he was the owner of the real life Chitty Chitty Bang Bang that he built himself and that Ian Fleming

wrote his novel on. Both of Louis' parents were dead by the time he was 16 and he was at that point reported to be the fourth richest child in the world. Fourth richest. Fourth richest.

But I have never seen Die Hard and I've never seen Chitty Chitty Bang Bang and I have no idea what I'm talking about. So I'm just going to stick to what I do. That's never stopped us

on this podcast. Yeah, we've never, that never happened. So M.R.ames that we've spoken about just before the break his ghost stories are very much derived on a victorian tradition and one of the most beloved victorian ghost stories is of course charles dickens the christmas carol yes our previous episode so um since it was written in 1843 and according to wikipedia and my pretty unreliable counting efforts there there have been 25 film versions, 30 cartoon

versions and 22 TV shows as well as loads of audio and radio versions. So I think it's probably one of the most adaptive things. And a mime version. Marcel Marceau. That sounds terrible though, doesn't it? I mean, that sounds rubbish.

His body is his tool. Thanks for that you're welcome but for one of like the most kind of enduring popular and adapted stories

kind of you know of the last 150 whatever years 160 years it actually took Dickens just six weeks to write the story

which is about double the time it takes Dominic to write an adventure in time book ah very good good publicity Good publicity. Good publicity again.

So they're available for more good booksellers, and it's not too late to get your Christmas shopping in. So anyway, it took six weeks for him to write, and he really had such high hopes for it, but it didn't start off too well. Of the first 6,000 copies, he only made a profit of £137, whereas he had hoped to make a profit of about £1,000. And that was because um the printing and binding was really expensive but also there were pirate copies being sold for just 2p

um claire tomalin in her excellent charles dickens biography has you know loads of information about all of this and i would absolutely recommend claire tomalin biography on absolutely anything thomas hardy samuel peeps everybody she writes brilliant books. But all of that said, after a slow start, it did take off. And, you know, as I said, it's arguably the best known and most popular Dickens story. In its first hundred years, it sold two million copies in the US alone. Dickens took it on tour in England and he wrote and performed all of these extended sections with different kind of, you know, drawing out different characters and their stories. People queued and thousands were regularly disappointed because they couldn't get in or they couldn't get tickets.

But Dickens sets his story in London, like he told us all about yesterday. So I'm kind of probably going to be repeating some of the things that you've said. But some of the churches and the churchy locations such as St. Paul's Cathedral are clearly identified and we know where they are and what they are. But for others, I've consulted the website london walking tours and they convincingly argue that the ancient tower of a church with the gruff old bell that was always peeping slyly down on scrooge out of a gothic window in the wall is saint michael's corn hill that's what we said that's what we said that Rachel agrees with us yes okay great did we great. Did we consult the same website?

I think we probably did. Probably. If you Google Dickens locations. It's a current location. We would never do that. I mean, I was at the Bodleian Library. Yeah. Fine.

So London is all well and good, but I'd like to give the final word and the final church, number four, to my beloved Shrewsbury. They filmed A Christmas Carol in Shrewsbury in the 1980s. 1984, to be precise, Dominic. I answered an advert in that local paper, the British North Journal, to appear as an urchin,

but they didn't select me. Dominic, you're acting career. They didn't select me. It's the whole Paddington story all over again, Tom. So you could have played Paddington and you could have played a Victorian urchin. Yeah, I probably would have been like Scrooge or something, but I missed out.

You're too well-fed to really be a Victorian urchin. Oh, thanks, Rachel. Thanks. Sorry. Sorry. You could be a Victorian philanthropist, though. Yeah. Yeah, I could.

I could have been Mr. Fezziwig. I'd have been Mr. Fezziwig. Or, you know, Mr. Watermelon, the fella from the Muppet version. Watermelon? Melon? Honeydew. Honeydew. Honeydew. Mr. Fizzy Wig. Or, you know, Mr. Watermelon, the fella from the Muppets version. Watermelon? Melon? Honeydew! Honeydew! Honeydew!

Mr. Watermelon! Sorry, Honeydew! That would make me beaker. It would, it would. That's actually very apt. It is, actually. Oh, God. Anyway.

Terrifying. Number four. 1984, A Christmas Carol was filmed in Shrewsbury uh there's loads of cgi so they put in like saint paul's and all of the london landmarks to um uh to kind of make it look like london but there's one prop that remains in shrewsbury in a churchyard to this day from that film so it's been there for like nearly 40 years and that is in the churchyard of saint chad's which is um oh it's just it's the new saint chad so this is the old saint chad which is a bit old and ruined and it's a bit sad but it's having repairs at the moment but if you go to the new saint chad

it's round it's got a lovely dome and it's you know a lovely georgian church um but if you scrawl scrabble around in the undergrowth there you'll see a huge slab of limestone inscribed with the words ebenezer scrooge and it's still there oh that's good yeah and they never removed it so yeah it's still there so yeah floriac salopia no that's it that's that's a brilliant number four okay great christmas baking i love i love baking i love christmas baking uh i love baking full stop dominic uh has a a something that he describes my baking as

never knowingly underbaked there is some truth but Rachel makes very very good cakes Tom she wants she's made a lot of birthday cakes that have occasioned comment from other parents

who said who's your professional cake maker by the Death Star Rachel made a whole Death Star spherical because it's just been Arthur's birthday Arthur's birthday the Hogwarts Hogwarts your professional cake maker. Like the Death Star. Rachel made a whole Death Star spherical out of chocolate cake. Arthur's birthday. Arthur's birthday.

The Hogwarts. Hogwarts. Anyway, that's all fine. So one thing that I use in all of my baking, not all of it, but most of it, would be self-raising flour.

So does anybody know about the history of self-raising flour? Tom, you must know all about this. You call yourself historians. Anyway, so, okay.

The next time you open your kitchen cupboard, spare a thought for Henry Jones. Henry Jones was born in 1812 in Monmouthshire and he went on to Bristol to make his fortune. And he kind of crossed over the Severn Estuary into the metropolis of the West. And he set up a business in Broadmead in Bristol. And he was basically a baker. And he was very innovative. And in 1845, when he was 33 years old, he invented something that made his fortune and kind of changed the baking world forever. Forever.

He basically invented self-raising flour. Okay, that's good. It is really good. And he obtained a patent for it. And Henry Jones Bristol was all great, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. He was appointed purveyor of the patent flour and biscuits to Queen Victoria. And basically, what was very interesting, I think, is that the armed forces of the crown were really slow to take up. They could have used his flower for all of their things, but they were really slow to take up.

They were very distrustful of it. And it wasn't until... Was that the fault of Dominic, the useless commander? Duke of Cambridge. The Duke of Cambridge, who was the most incompetent person that we saw in our... In our statues. Yeah, our statues walk. And you were really keen that he continue to stand as a symbol of incompetence

yes sort of inspiration to people yes and so he missed out on self-raising flour self-raising flour but hold on why would the what military purpose

to self no no no like for the food for food like for biscuits they could throw it in the faces of the French

no biscuits and weevils I'm joking go on Rich yeah fine so you know the kind of biscuits and the kind of the staple of the Royal Navy, they could have had nice biscuits, basically, but they didn't.

Until Florence Nightingale herself intervened during the Crimean War. And basically she got self-raising flour used by the army for their biscuits. So she's got one over Mary Seacole at last on flour. Yeah, she has. But anyway, basically, this is a quick one. Henry Jones, self-raising flower. He was born in Monmouthshire in Wales. He got married in a church, which is a friend of a friend of churches church.

It's St. Michael's and All Angels, Llanfahangl Rogget. Say that again. Dominic. It's Llanfahangl Rogget. Very good. No, I just wanted to hear it. I thought it was really nice. Right.

Actually, it is absolutely beautiful. Llanfahangl Rogget actually translates as the Church of St. Michael in the Valley of the Road Year. And it's so beautiful. That's a beautiful name. It is lovely. It is a beautiful name. Very nice.

Anyway, that's Henry Jones. He got married in that church at Llanfahangl Rogget. And he's buried in St. Mary's Caldecott churchyard not nearby but his invention lives on and is used every single day by bakers all across the world okay so that's four is that five no that's five that's five so we're halfway there we're halfway through yeah we're nearly there great um way up north where the air gets cold there's a tale about Christmas that we've all been told. That's the Beach Boys.

And they're singing about little Saint Nick. So Saint Nicholas was a 4th century Turkish bishop. And he became the patron saint of children after he gave three bags of gold as a dowry to save three sisters from prostitution. And he revived three murdered boys that had been pickled in brine. And he had loads of other miracles including the miracle of the cop i don't really know if we have time to be talking about the miracle of the cop but anyway um can you can you describe it in a sentence a long sentence that has no i'm amazed to hear that okay a rich man prays at saint nick's tomb and says if he gives him a son he'll donate a golden cup to the tomb.

I don't really know why the dead saint wants a cup, but anyway. The rich man gets the son and he thinks he can be clever and give a fake gold cup to St. Nicholas's tomb. And keep the real gold one for himself. The rich man sends his son to the river with the cup to get some water. The son falls in, disappears and or drowns, we don't know. The rich man is distraught. Then he goes to the tomb with his fake to get some water. The son falls in, disappears and or drowns, we don't know. The rich man is distraught. Then he goes to the tomb with his fake cup and prays and is all weepy. And then a hand appears out of nowhere. It throws the fake cup back at the man and knocks him over.

And then the dead or lost son appears and says, St. Nicholas saved him and hand over the gold cup to the tomb. And you'll get your son back. They do. And everybody lives happily ever after. him and hand over the gold cup to the tomb and you'll get yourself back they do and everybody lives happily ever after anyway um the uh the cycles of saint nicholas's miracles are found in medieval wall paintings in loads of churches like saint mary alder maston and barkshire haddon hall chapel in derbyshire all saints in worth in essex and but i think my favourite depiction has to go to St Nicholas' miracles carved onto the 12th century font at Winchester Cathedral.

And it's a tournay marble font, so Belgian, not real marble, polished black limestone. But on that you have the miracles of reviving the drowned boys, the miracle of the golden cup the miracle of the the girl the prostitution gold dowry things and it's beautifully polished and it's just divine

and there are only seven tournay marble fonts in the whole of England and four of them are in Hampshire and this one at Winchester Cathedral is just beautifully carved

you know so distinct 10 out of 10. I'm amazed they don't make more of it, bearing in mind the popularity of Father Christmas. Yeah. Well, talking about Father Christmas, I was actually, once I was reading about this,

I kind of went down a bit of a rabbit hole and wondered why Santa Claus was called Santa Claus. Do you know this? It's American, isn't it? It's because of, it's melding of traditions in America. Yeah, St. Niklaus. Oh, okay, fine. Isn't that...

Is that what it is, Rach? Yeah, it's 18th century Dutch families that went to America. So St. Nicholas in Dutch is Sint Niklas. That was shortened to Sinterklaas. And then that eventually became Santa Claus. I'm very fanatical against Santa Claus. I'm very much a Father Christmas fan. You're a Father Christmas fan, aren't you?

Are you really? Yeah, we talked about this last year in our previous Christmas special. You never hear the word Santa Claus past my lips, Rach. You would never. And actually, if anybody else says Santa Claus, you always kind of admonish them, don't you? I'm a nice person

that way. A hurling of the lip. Yeah, exactly. The sneer of cold command. No, Tom, it's not even like that. He'll say, Santa Claus? Who's Santa Claus? Who are you talking about? Do you mean Father Christmas? That's what he would say. He'll take back the sixpence that he'd just given to her.

The shoeless chimney sweep. This is a terrible insight into Christmas in this episode. It is. It absolutely is. But it's so good that Rachel comes every year. So, draw your own conclusions. I would say that Dominic is one of the best people to spend Christmas with, I would say. Oh, that is so touching to hear.

You're so much fun. So much fun. The jollity of Christmas. I'll be coming for the next ten years. Playing Sir Roger the Covelly. Yeah, exactly. Okay, let's go on. That was number six. Winchester Cathedral. Tourenoy Marble Fond.lly. Yeah, exactly. Okay, let's go on.

That was number six, Winchester Cathedral, Tornow Marble Fond, St. Nicholas. Great. Okay, next up is number seven. So there's loads of talk this year, again, like last year, about Christmas being cancelled, second year in a row.

Everyone's very sad about it. But actually in Scotland, Christmas was cancelled for about 400 years. Now, Tom, do you know this? You know it, do you, Tom? Yeah. Yeah. I think it only became a holiday in the 60s.

Yeah. Dominic didn't know this at all. I tried it out on him last week. Yeah. I didn't know it. I didn't know it. I don't know. I still don't.

Tell me, Rach. Okay. I will tell you, Dominic. So in 1583, there was a decree made at St. Mungo's Cathedral, which is Glasgow Cathedral. That is number seven. Just so you know, just so there's no doubt. So the Glasgow Kirk rejected a calendar defined by mysterious and superstitious times.

Potpourri. No potpourri. Exactly. And they ordered the excommunication of those who celebrated Christmas or Yule. And even singing a Christmas carol was considered a serious crime. Eventually in 1640 an Act of Parliament in Scotland made the celebration of Christmas illegal and even just baking a Christmas bread was a criminal act. Wow that's harsh. It is harsh. The ban was officially repealed in 1712 but the church continued to frown upon any

festive celebrations and the punishment were harsh and there was no public holiday for Christmas people on Christmas day so it wasn't until 1958 so the 25th of December yeah 1958 25th of December became a public holiday in Scotland Boxing Day which we've already talked about in church number two only became a public holiday in 1974 so because Christmas was cancelled, the Scots made a much bigger deal of New Year's Eve or hog money. That's why they make such a big deal of it. I didn't know that.

That is interesting. So what were they doing in sort of the early 1950s while people in England and indeed the rest of the world were celebrating Christmas? Are people genuinely going to work in Scotland? Really? I think so, yeah. Scottish listeners.

Tell us. Tell us, yeah, tell us. What were you doing in 1950s Christmas, 1957? Yeah, exactly. We want to know. But Scotland wasn't the only place that had a cancelled Christmas. So in 17th century England, it was thought that Christmas again was far too much fun.

It wasn't treated with the solemnity that it deserved. So in 1647, the long parliament said that Christmas should no longer be recognised. And that led to general unrest. And in Canterbury, there was a woman thrown in prison for baking a Christmas pudding. And shopkeepers were imprisoned for not opening their shops on Christmas Day. Yeah. And Father Christmas was banned, wasn't he? There was a cartoon of Father Christmas being sent packing. Wrongly attributed

all this to Oliver Cromwell. But he, of course, was not running the country at that point. Your big hero. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Everyone knows that. Okay. No, okay. I'm making very good time. I'm very pleased. So St. Mungo's was the church? Number seven, yeah.

Yeah. Because people were complaining the last time that I didn't have an active Scottish church in my list. you've got a cathedral an active scottish cathedral now so yeah happy happy christmas um okay so the next one uh at this time of the year lots of people will be getting new kind of diaries or calendars and their christmas stockings on christmas morning or if you don't get one in

your stocking, you might get a free one from your local Chinese, if you're lucky. But there's a church in Kent that has the coolest and the most difficult to read calendar etched into one of its walls. So this church, church number eight, is St. Mary's East Street, and this is calendars. So this is really hard for me to try to explain. I'm going to do my absolute best. But there's one pillar, and it was carved in the 1320s, and it's got this Domenical dial carved into it. Tom, you might know about it.

Dominic, you won't know anything. I don't. So I think it's unique in English churches. If it's not unique, it's unique in English churches. If it's not unique, it's absolutely very, very rare. So it's called a Domenical Dial or a Sunday Letter Dial. And what it involves is it's four concentric circles, and they're divided into 28 equal parts. And that depicts the 28 years of the solar cycle. And the 28 parts carry really deeply cut Lombardic letters, A to G,

and they each appear 28, sorry, each letter appears four times in the 28 segments. And then in the next outer ring, each letter appears once, and the double lettering is allowed to allow for leap years. You know who'd like this it's seb falck who did medieval science yeah he'd love a medieval calendar well the thing is i'm going to try to explain how it works but i don't really know so i'm going to you know right well should we just say it works should we just say it kind of works no tom i have things okay okay okay sorry no um so what the dial was used for specifically it was it was used to calculate the day of Easter in the following year.

And from that, then you could calculate the dates of the subsequent festivals and feast days, including Christmas. So I really haven't been able to get my head around how it works. But the letters need to be read in conjunction with the golden numbers. And each letter corresponds to a different number. So A equals zero, G equals one, F equals two. That's a very strange way of ordering it. I know, exactly. This is like the worst Christmas game ever.

And if you roll a six. So the Sunday letters are set out in the Book of Common Prayer, tables and rules for movable and immovable feasts. And apparently it will all be good and the calculations will be good and true until 2099 so that's pretty good going right yeah so okay this is apparently this is how it works you take whatever year it is like 2021 you add to that a quarter of that year. Then you add the number six. Right. You stand on one leg.

Then you divide all of that by seven. And whatever the remainder is, i.e. zero to six, that will correspond to a letter on the wall. That is so brilliant. And do they do it? There must be a simpler way than that. No. But, yeah. So it way than that. But yeah. So it still works?

Apparently, yeah. Apparently it still works. What fun. Where's this again? Where's this church? St. Mary's East Street in Kent. So it's a really cool church and this is a brilliant device.

I have no idea how it works. Tom, you should go. It's not that far from you. I'm going to go. I'm going to go, yeah. Yeah, you should go and try and figure out how it works. Those long winter should go. It's not that far from you. I'm going to go. Yeah, you should go and try and figure out how it works. Those long winter days will just fly by. There's like...

There's a thing that the Kent Archaeological Society have done where they've tried to explain how it works. I haven't figured... I read it carefully. Well, there's the challenge for 2022. We'll try and work that out. Yeah. So is that number seven?

That's number eight. Great, so we've got two more to go. We've got two more in six minutes. Fine. Perfect, so you can take your time. I can, yeah. Okay, so picture the scene. It's New Year's Eve and you're in Camelot.

King Arthur and his pals are celebrating the Christmas season and in comes the mysterious Green Knight who joins the fun and the games. And he challenges any knight to strike him with an axe. And if in return, he can take a return blow a year and one day. Did you do an episode on Sir Gawain and the Green Knight? No, we haven't done that.

Yeah, we're mulling it. Well, maybe you should. I just saw the film about it last week. Oh, okay. Very good. So this is the story of Gawain and the green knight so this knight called um sir gawain he accepts the green um the green knight's uh challenge and he strikes his axe and he actually beheads the knight but the green knight just stands up

picks up his head sticks it back on he's absolutely fine and he reminds gawain of the appointed time and place that he is going to have his you know his reciprocal blow so it will be one year and one day time so it'll be new year's day the following year and it will be in a place called the green chapel right so for centuries scholars have tried to figure out where that green chapel is it's described as only an earthen mound containing a cavern but most accursed so there are two places in the northwest midlands the scholars think the location of the green chapel could be so the first one which is church number nine it's not really a church but sort of

the church sort of the church uh is lud's church do No. Okay. So Ludd's Church is a deep chasm in the Gradback Hillside in Staffordshire. It's created by this massive landslip and it's this close, damp, overgreen, bright green mossy kind of chasm in the rock. It's a really good place for a green chapel because it's green. But it's also a place where

the Lollards, these proto-Protestant followers of John Wycliffe met to worship in the 15th century and it's thought that Ludd's church might be named after Walter de Luddank who was captured there at one of their meetings and to me that kind of dark space

kind of evokes the fear and the evil and the cursed you know, the cursedness that you'd expect going into a chapel. Rachel, it's not a chapel now. No, no, no. It's just a cave. It's just a cave, but it's called Ludd's Church. You could go and pray in it if you wanted, Tom. I mean, no one's going to stop you. Or sharpen my axe, isn't it?

There's kind of whetstone in the poem. Tom, are you being very pedantic, Tom, saying it's not a church? Because I have experts on my list. No, Rachel, no, no. I'm absolutely not. I just wondered whether it was, you know, a kind of groovy green chapel. Groovy green chapel. Go for midnight mass or something.

Yeah, Sir Gawain and the groovy green chapel. I just think they're missing a trick there, the Church of England or whoever. Rachel has strong views about the Church of England, Tom, we don't want to get into that. Well, somebody could take it, some church could take it over and make it into a chapel because Green Night, it's been in this film this year, I'm sure people

would love to go there. So if you want to take Tom Holland up on his promotional offer, get in touch with him and Tom Holland's Green Chapel could be open. There's terrible winter wonderlands that people go to just before Christmas Day. They complain. The queues were massive.

Yet another Tom Holland's Green Chapel failure. The Green Knight, you know, he wasn't a giant. Yeah, all that kind of stuff. Yeah, no, it's very exciting. Okay. Anyway, that's Ludd's church, right? And that's your church? That's number nine.

But I just want to stick in there that, so other people suggest that the location for the Green Chapel could be Nantor Cave at Wetton Mill, which is only about 10 miles away. So this is definitely a mound with a cave. It's got multiple entrances into it. But parts of it has kind of collapsed, like the roof has collapsed. It's very cave. It's got multiple entrances into it. But parts of it has kind of collapsed. Like the roof has collapsed.

It's very overgrown inside. So it's kind of hard to kind of see what it would have looked like in the 14th century. Quick question for both of you, because you will both know more about this than me. Why do people think it has to be in Staffordshire? Is it because of the dialect of the poem? Right. Okay. Thank you.

I mean, of course, it's not real, is it? I mean, there wasn't really a Green Knight. It could be either or none of them. You don't know. Yeah, you don't know. Rachel's just done an impersonation that won't mean anything to anybody but me. Because we've already covered talking snakes in this year's podcast with Guiding Alexander the Great Across the Desert.

And you don't know that didn't happen. Yeah, and indeed Scrooge. And indeed Scrooge, right. So, I mean, it could have happened. I'm just pointing that out. It could be either of them or not. Okay. Your final choice, please. The final countdown. No, you can go over.

You can go over. We'll cut out all your earlier stuff. Okay, thanks. Anyway, so, okay. I'm worried that this might be a bit of an anti-climax now, but anyway. So Christmas. No, I don't think so. Okay.

So Christmas, it's all about the birth of Christ. Okay? Okay. Yeah. Controversial, but yes. Hard-hitting religious punditry. It's like a sermon by a Church of England vicar. Okay, so scenes from the Nativity,

the appearance of the angels and the shepherds, the adoration of the Magi, the Magi's dream, Joseph's dream, the flight into Egypt, the massacre of the innocents, they are daubed onto walls all over England and Wales. So my first big shout-out, because I like to do a church shout-out, is to St. Alien's Hanalien, Hanalien and Ross in Denbighshire. over England and Wales. So my first big shout out, because I like to do a church shout out,

is to St. Alien's, Hanalien, Hanalien and Ross in Denbighshire. Now, this is a, no, this is a really cool church. Everybody should go there.

It's got these painted panel ceilings. So it's got the adoration of the Magi. It's got the Magi's dream, but it's got all of these painted, medieval painted saints kind of all over the ceiling, painted onto timber absolutely brilliant i have a song oh hey great great well i was wondering if you would have a song well just

because you know anyway i'll just get straight to it so the church is saint alien's clenalian okay yeah and it goes like this oh i'm clenalian i'm clunalian. I'm Clunalian church. I'm an old church in Denbighshire. Oh, I'm Clunalian. And it goes on like that. That's brilliant. That's brilliant. I can't believe it.

I can't believe it's Christmas churches, the 23. Okay, fine. But if you want to see kind of holy infancy nativity type scenes on churches, you should definitely go to churches at

Ashamstead in Berkshire, Tornamparva in Suffolk, sorry, Pinvin in Worcestershire, Newington in Kent. But my, and those are all kind of 13th, 14th century paintings. A personal favourite again is in Oxfordshire. Dominic, only down the road

from you. You haven't been to see it. It's in Peter's at Vincula, South Newington in Oxfordshire. Oh, I know South Newington. Yeah. Yeah, you drive past it. Have you been to the church though? Yeah, I've never been to the church. I never stopped a car. Exactly. You know the garage. Yeah, exactly. It's on the way to Banbury. It's on the way to Banbury. That stopped exactly you know the garage yeah exactly it's on the way to banbury it's on the way to banbury that's exactly it yeah yeah but this you everybody

should stop there because it is like it is an amazing church um brilliant because you can always get in which is always a bonus and but in terms of nativity scenes it's got um like a real kind of cartoon strip along the um the north wall of the arcade in the nave uh but what's really great about it is it was painted with oil paints in the 1300s so the colors are really rich and saturated so unlike the kind of clay ochre paints that are quite faded everywhere else i mean the colours just like pop off the walls. And there's, you know, you've got a lovely little flight into Egypt where you've got Mary on a donkey and stuff like that. But the most famous thing there isn't actually a church,

but you should church. It is a church. The most famous thing in that church is not a Christmas scene, but it's the martyrdom of Thomas Beckett. And it's huge and it's amazing. So how did that survive? I suppose they were just all painted over.

They just whitewashed it. Yeah. But that is a brilliant chart and definitely should, you should definitely go there. But my top choice for holy infancy scenes this Christmas would be. So number 10. So number 10. The last of the festive list. The last of the festive list.

Is. Is St. Bothwell's Hardham and West Sussex. Now, I did give this a shout out in the last one. Dominic, something in a fit. I remember you and St. Bothels has got something on you, clearly. No, it deserves more than just a shout out because this is the place that has some of the earliest wall paintings in the UK. They date from about the 1100s. They were painted over in 1300.

So they survived because they weren't. Hold on. Fashion, Dominic. Fashion on why would fashion dominic fashion fashion fashion anyway so um in this little church kind of cars whizzed past nobody knows it's their small little whitewashed church inside in pink and yellow ochre um there are about 15 scenes from the Holy Infancy. You know, I'm not going to list them all, but my favourite is the one of my favourites is the flight into Egypt. You've got Mary on this little gawky donkey and you've got the presentation in the temple where all the urns start toppling. And then you've got the massacre of the innocents. And I mean, I guess what's so brilliant is they're only kind of spectral remains on these walls.

But they're even still there to so wrought with drama and violence. So these babies are held up by their ankles, ready to be beheaded. And there are bodies kind of strewn around the ground. And it's just so gruesome. But as a nice little fact, one thing is, so the walls are, it's all kind of pink and yellow. Those are the kind of colours that they went for. They would have been kind of more kind of golden and red I guess originally but for kind of um things like halos they used a thing called salt green which is uh one of my uh yeah one thing that I like I always mention because I think it's so cool so the salt green is like almost like a lurid kind of acidic green for

the halos and kind of the really important bits and how they made this salt green was they had sheets of copper they smothered them with honey uh they put salt on top of it and they dipped it into a vat of urine for a couple of weeks took it out scrape it all off grind it all up and then you have this lovely bright green paint for kind of all of the most celestial little bits of it so yeah now um so those are my 10 i have a couple more things i'd just like to say very quickly i do yeah okay so one that would have absolutely made the top 10 but it was it was in my other top 10 so i can't i couldn't have it was um saint andrews boynton in east riding of yorkshire so this is the one um where uh the guy william strickland went to america and brought back

turkeys and he's got turkeys all over his church. Do you remember that one? Yes. So, I mean, that would obviously be in a top ten of churches, Christmas churches,

but it had already been in the other top ten. So, I just want to put it out there. If anybody wants to hear more about that church, please listen to the previous episode. Okay. I really wanted to talk about

kind of customs like the Marylewd in Wales and the Hoodening Horse in Kent. What are they? Those are things basically where you get like in Wales

the Mary Lude is like it's a horse's skull and it's on a spring and you see like Oh yes, yes. Chases people around the street. Yes, like chasing but singing

and kind of jolly and it's supposed to be good luck and she comes to your door. People say that it's like derived of the donkey that Mary went into Bethlehem on. Oh, that's in the Dark is Rising books by Susan Cooper. Yeah, she's brilliant.

Actually, Susan Cooper, she's got one scene in The Dark is Rising. The Grey King? The Green Mantle? No, I can't remember which one. Green cover book, really good. But it's Will. It's Will. Will is the main character. And he's... That's the first Dark is Rising, isn't it?

It's not Overseer Understood. But actually, there's one scene in that that I really... I was going to try and find as one of the top churches because I think it's so... It's so frightening, actually, because they're in the church and it's like all the demons are bashing on the windows outside the church and they're kind of trapped inside and they're like

that's the first that's number two The Dark is Rising The Dark is Rising so oh it's so good and it's so scary yeah that's set in the Chilterns

isn't it yeah yes so anyway but this Mary Lou to the Grey Mayor is a kind of a Welsh thing but there are loads of other versions of it all throughout,

kind of really all throughout England. So there's a hoodning horse in Kent, which again is where they used like sometimes a wooden head, sometimes a horse's head that was decorated, that kind of went around in the Cotswolds, there's a thing called the broad, where they use a decorated bull's head. In the East Midlands, they use a goat's head and

it was called old top so it's kind of an old tradition and i really wanted to try this one in salisbury is there yeah you used to go around the streets with a giant it's in salisbury museum oh right okay because tom i was trying to find a church connection and i couldn't it's not a church it's a it's a i think they kept it in the guild hall or something so it's nothing to do with the church i'm just i'm just throwing it out there. It's very sinister. No, well, but this is the thing. So just as a kind of, you know, I can't, there isn't a Christmas connection to this,

but basically there is a really interesting story about three horses' heads being found in the spire of a church in Northumberland in Elston, St. Cuthbert's. Tom, your friend, St. Cuthbert? Yeah, yeah. Elston near Annick in Northumberland in elsdon st cuthbert's tom your friend st cuthbert yeah yeah els elsdon in in near annick in northumberland and they found these three horses skulls that were arranged kind of into a triangle in this like cavity completely sealed cavity in the top of the spire which is really cool so like kind of some sort of protective sort of thing some people say it's like for um for like resonance or or reverberation

of the bells or whatever but I don't really see how that would work. No, it's a bit more M.R. James. Yeah, very M.R. James. So there was that. I would say

just as a fan of the podcast the St. Cuthbert's episode Tom was one of my favourites. Oh, thank you. Great, how could you? Honestly, do you know Dominic so didn't want to do that.

He didn't want to do that. Yeah, I'm shocked at that. But you're right it was a brilliant decision't want to do that. He didn't want to do that. I'm shocked at that. But you're right. It was a brilliant decision to do. It was. Have you still not listened to your own

episode? Dominic was wrong. I have not listened. Rachel refuses to listen to her own episode, Tom. No, I'd be too embarrassed.

I'd be too embarrassed. I'd be too embarrassed. But just last thing I wanted to say, again, something that I couldn't fit in and I really want to, but for me this is very

important and I will tell you why. So I love tinsel. I love tinsel and so tinsel was invented in nuremberg in 1610 and it's derived from this old french word esintel which means to sparkle i can't speak french there is a place in monmouthshire in wales called coombran it's a new town i think you should do a podcast on new towns if you haven't done one already. Good subject. Yeah. Yeah. So I think you should do something on the new towns.

But Coombran in Monmouthshire, there's a, it's one, it's the UK's largest tinsel production factory. And I just love the idea of it. I have to say, I just love, I love tinsel. And at the height of their season,

they produce 656, sorry, I'm doing like a pretty patella can't get my number back 656,000 feet of sparkly you know sparkly stuff it's amazing it was invented in the early

17th century I would not have known that it's probably not very eco-friendly though Rach Tinsall is it? No it's not so basically in the beginning it was real silver and it kind of caught the light of the um the you know the candles and stuff to make it sparkle then uh silver tarnishes so they started to use um a lead which doesn't tarnish but lead's not great you know yeah it kind of poisons you yeah it poisons you exactly yeah um so then lead went out and now

they use like a sort of pvc thing so no it's not great um but i just yeah tinsel makes me happy um i'll remember that on christmas day that's gonna be a christmas present a big bag of tinsel anyway but just to say um this organ so this place in coomber on in monmouthshire they pride themselves actually kind of in an article they say they pride themselves on their pert and bushy products. Oh my God. Which is exactly what you want tinsel to be. It is. Pert and bushy. Cone grown is important to me

because it is where the founder of the Friends of Friendless Churches was where he was born and grew up. What was his name again? Ivor Bulmer Thomas. Fantastic person. You should do a podcast on him. Well, that's a reminder to our listeners that for Christmas, they should all donate money to the Friends of Friendless churches

to save some of these churches that you have been talking about. So on that note, thank you so much for coming on the podcast. I shall see you at Christmas. And to our listeners, thank you so much for listening. Have a wonderful, happy and healthy Christmas. Don't follow Tom Holland down the Scrooge Road, the Barhamburg Road. No, follow me down the Scrooge Road because I'll be going out handing turkeys. I should be dancing like Mr. Fezziwig.

Yeah. Or Mr. Fozziwig, of course, as some of us know him from The Muppets Christmas Carol. And Dominic, we will actually amazingly be back on Christmas Day. Now this is very exciting, isn't it, Tom? Shall we tell the listeners about this? Yeah, go ahead and tell the listeners. So Tom had this idea.

I told him it was a terrible idea, but he has prevailed. And I think it's a brilliant idea and you're all going to love it, of doing the 12 Days of Christmas. Doing a podcast every day for one of the 12 days. So we'll be doing them about events or moments

that happened on this day. And each one of us has chosen. And each one of us has chosen, exactly. So Tom's are all about eunuchs and genital mutilation. No, they're not. No, they're not. The Labour government of the late 70s. You will have to listen to find out whether that is true or not

but we won't be doing um these kind of podcasts until after 12th night and then in the new year we'll be back with uh with the customary two or maybe maybe maybe more depending but uh in the meanwhile have a very very happy christmas have a great new year and we will see you in the new year merry christmas goodbye merry christmas very, very happy Christmas. Have a great new year and we will see you in the new year. Merry Christmas. Goodbye. Merry Christmas. Thanks for listening to The Rest Is History. For bonus episodes, early access, ad-free listening and access to our chat community,

please sign up at restishistorypod.com. That's restishistorypod.com.