The Rest Is History - 165. The Rise of Genghis Khan

Episode Date: March 21, 2022

Tom Holland and Dominic Sandbrook speak to Ali Ansari about the origins of one of the greatest warlords in human history - Genghis Khan. They discuss his early life as Temujin and how he became Genghis Khan, leader of the Mongols. Catch the second episode - Genghis Khan: Lord of the Mongols - tomorrow! Or get it right now as a member of The Rest Is History Club, where you also get ad-free listening to the full archive, weekly bonus episodes, live streamed shows and access to an exclusive chatroom community. Producer: Dom Johnson Exec Producer: Tony Pastor *The Rest Is History Live Tour 2023*: Tom and Dominic are back on tour this autumn! See them live in London, New Zealand, and Australia! Buy your tickets here: restishistorypod.com Twitter:  @TheRestHistory @holland_tom @dcsandbrook Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Thank you for listening to The Rest Is History. For weekly bonus episodes, ad-free listening, early access to series, and membership of our much-loved chat community, go to therestishistory.com and join the club. That is therestishistory.com. For while I have fingers to grasp a sword and eyes to see, your treacherous head is not safe on your shoulders, nor your daughter in her bed. That, Dominic Sandbrook, was Genghis Khan, as played by john wayne you definitely haven't had a stroke no i was i thought that was yet another masterly impression

um as i said john wayne uh playing genghis khan the role he was born to play in the 1956 film The Conqueror. Have you seen it? I haven't actually, Tom. I haven't. And after that impersonation, I don't think I ever will. It's basically a Western. That's not how I imagined Genghis Khan sounding at all, let's be frank. No, and I don't really imagine him looking like John Wayne either.

No, no, that's true. So I don't want you him looking like John Wayne either. No, no, that's true. So I don't know who to blame there, the producers or you. Anyway, so as listeners will probably have guessed, our theme today is Genghis Khan, or is that the correct way to pronounce it? Do you know what we need, Dominic, to advise us on this? I do, but before we bring our expert in, Tom, I will just say this. We in The Rest Is History are not a podcast that does random shout-outs to schools across England.

That is absolutely not our modus operandi. However, if that school happens to be J.R.R. Tolkien's alma mater, and also the alma mater of our producer, Jack Davenport, then we take a very different line, don't we, Tom? We won't make an exception with that. So this is a shout-out to the the pupils at king edwards birmingham tom who it turns out are great fans of the rest is history and are intending to listen to this episode in their classrooms that's wonderful which all children i think nationwide should be doing frankly yes yes

but i hope also that um maybe there are some I imagine they do drama at King Edward's Birmingham. So maybe that masterly opening will encourage some thespians to tread the boards. And I also have high hopes that this episode will play in schools across Mongolia as people get in touch with their, I don't think they're woke about their history there. So I think they absolutely will embrace the spirit of this podcast. But not just Mongolia, the whole of Eurasia. Well, that's the thing, isn't it? Because that, of course, is our theme, isn't it? It is. Genghis Khan, the greatest conqueror of this podcast. But not just Mongolia, the whole of Eurasia. Well, that's the thing, isn't it? Because that, of course, is our theme, isn't it? It is.

Genghis Khan, the greatest conqueror of all time. So we were going to bring in an expert, weren't we? And do you have such a person? I do. And he's very much a friend of the show. In fact, Dominic, he's the only person who has stepped into your shoes when you malingered with COVID. We welcomed to the show, not just just so he'd previously been a guest

he talked did that brilliant episode on persia then he stepped in to uh co-host with me the top 10 mistresses in history and now he's back it's the one and only professor ali ansari st andrews university ali welcome back it's thank you and it's really it's really good to be back you know central asian warlords I have known. So Ali, Genghis Khan, not the correct pronunciation, right? It isn't. It isn't actually. Well, as far as we can tell, because actually the more accurate pronunciation or rendition seems to be, and I dare say, among Persian historians of the Mongol period, and it's actually Cengiz, it's a C-H rather than a G. So people tend to agree that basically they have the nearest pronunciation. The Persians did?

Yes. So you're saying the Persians pronounced it better than the Mongols? Yeah, Persian historians are really the ones that we can't do without. Because a number of Persian historians, and one of them in particular, who I'll be quoting pretty liberally throughout here, was one of the ones who actually went to Karakorum and actually looked at the secret history and was actually invited to write a sort of a... So tell us about the secret history,

because we should probably discuss the... I mean... Tom, we're not a PhD. We should have a chapter on sources to start the podcast. So you're going to be citing Persian sources, but the secret... I mean, the secret history is great, isn't it? Because that's... The secret history is sources, but the secret, I mean, the secret history is great, isn't it? Because that's the Mongolian

The secret history is great, but the only accounts we have, or the only sort of, yeah, the only versions we have left are actually taken from Chinese chronicles. So the Chinese basically translated it, it's in the Chinese chronicles, and then it's been re-translated back. The other sources we have for the secret history are basically

a number of Persian historians, particularly this gentleman known as Juvaini, who traveled to Karakorum and actually is claimed to have seen it. So what we can do is compare these two different sources and see what they tell us about the early life of Genghis Khan. And, you know, there's a sort of a, you know, they sort of, they echo each other. So just a couple of things, Ali, before we get started. So first of all, we are in, for those people who don't know, we are in the medieval period. Yes.

We kick off in the 12th century, and he dies in the 13th century. That's right. And he is the person who is the architect, the founding father of this kind of huge period of Mongol expansion, I guess. That's right. The most sort of rapid expansion, probably in human history. Now, the second thing I was going to say is, you talked about his his name Genghis but but that's not his original name right no no that's a title it's an honorific yeah it's an honorific and you read various uh you read I mean I I was

always taught I have to say and I'm going to stick with this that Genghis Khan actually means lord of all those who dwell in felt tents uh so this is an honorific that he gets in 1206 when he basically brings the mongol confederation the tribes together and begins the uh begins the jolly of you know heading down into what is now china and and just to be clear his surname is not khan so no no not at all again lord that's lord yeah lord and it is one of the great banes yes that a lot of people tend to use khan because khan is also a term that's used in lord and it is one of the great banes yes that a lot of people tend to use khan because khan is also a term that's used in uh persian quite frequently just to mean mister these days it's sort of slightly been diminished uh right over the time uh there's a lot of words

that come in and seep in uh but in those days obviously it means lord but his his real name is temujin temujin blacksmith so he's smith yeah yeah yeah before he becomes before he becomes calm he's mr smith yeah it's a fairly i mean the interesting thing about his rise by the way is that uh quite apart from the fact that you know what we know comes from essentially one source and it's pretty vague and it's quite speculative uh but it's not smooth is what the i mean you look at so you would imagine the secret history is on the whole quite eulogistic. It obviously says, you know, what a splendid chap he was and, you know, how he outmaneuvered all his foes. But it has to be said that he had a pretty rough time growing up.

I mean, it wasn't all easy. So Ali, before we come to Genghis Khan himself, just the background. So the secret history says about the Mongols that they are descended from a deer and a blue-gray wolf. Yes. There's a long line of descent that at some point, there's a mysterious glowing man who appears through a tent, and he contributes to the bloodline of the Mongols. But they are basically, when Temüjin is born into them, they're a fairly insignificant tribe on the Mongolian steppes. Well, basically, I mean, the Mongols, yeah, there are a number of different tribes.

I mean, basically on the, you know, what we consider to be the outer hinterland of the Chinese sort of imperium. What is now basically, I suppose, you know, Mongolia and that sort of outer areas siberia and they uh there are a number of different tribes who who are basically can you know uh designated as a part of a sort of a mongol confederation i don't think you can devise them as one people i mean this is the interesting thing is that what what temujin does is he basically welds them into a single into a single group he's not the first person to do it i mean there have been threats before and the chinese deal with them in various ways, either through bribery or defeats and this sort of thing. What actually Temujin does, aka Genghis Khan, is basically not only wield them into a hole, if I can put it that way, but then ensure they have someone else to fight. I mean,

that's the other thing. So he directs them elsewhere and and that keeps them all unit unified just before we start on his on temujin's actual career sure the context for this so you said that these are tribes who are nomadic they live beyond the bounds of the chinese empire so the great wall is basically yeah you know the various incarnations of the great wall it's not quite quite. And they belong to the steps. Yes. Which are obviously not, you know, things that you go up if the lift's not working. They are huge, great plains.

Great plains. Great grasslands. They're kind of grasslands, aren't they? And they basically, they extend from the Pacific right the way up to Hungary. Yes. So this is the key thing to understand, isn't it? I mean, in ecological terms, yes.

I mean, because basically what the, they're nomads, they're on horseback, although we can discuss also the nature of their horses, by the way. They're not quite, you know, they're more ponies, actually. But nonetheless, you know, they need a particular environment in which to exist. So that is where they're most effective. And if you look at the expansion of the Empire later, there is a sort of a slight correlation, obviously, about where the step ends and where they sort of stop expanding, basically. And, Ali, history is littered with examples, isn't it? Already, by the time that when Temujin is born, there have been tons of, I mean, the Avars, the Huns,

there have been all these people who have swept famously. The Pechenegs. The Pechenegs, friends of the show. The Cub have been all these people who have swept. Our friends, the Pechenegs. The Pechenegs, friends of the show. The Cumans, all these kind of characters. They've swept. I mean, that trajectory. So the story that we always tell about the Mongols, and I mean, I can't help thinking of him as Genghis Khan.

Yeah, sure. The way that they, the stories, you know, the storm from the east, come out of nowhere, all that. But they don't really come out of nowhere because, I mean, this has been done a billion times before. Am I wrong about that? No, no, it has been done. I think it hasn't been done quite on the scale that it's done on this occasion. That's the difference.

And certainly, I mean, the interesting thing is the Chinese or the various, you know, Chinese authorities that were dealing with China, as we know at this stage, is separated into separate kingdoms. But they have a particular modus operandi of dealing with these step tribesmen i mean and it's it's pretty effective to be honest that's the way they deal with it and it's the same when you look at the persian heartlands they have a particular way of dealing with these sort of tribal hinterlands the difference is is that what um jengis han does is effectively transform this tribal confederation into you know you know the most effective fighting force that i think people that people have actually experienced and it is a shock i mean it's a major shock to the system although as we'll see you know he learns on the way i mean

he does he's he's very innovative actually okay so so he is he is born supposedly clutching a blood clot yeah a good bit of secret history yes which demonstrates that he is, he is born supposedly clutching a blood clot. Yeah. Good bit of secret history. Yes. Which demonstrates that he is going to inherit universal rule. Apparently. That's right. I gather. I can't believe that's a post facto invention,

but yes. So, and he's the son of a guy called Yusuge. Is that right? Who is, who's captured a Tartar chief or killed a Tartar chief called Temujin and when you when you kill someone when you capture someone you take over everything so you take all their possessions all their belongings all their women everything and their name so that's right so he grows up

and his his father is quite a significant figure there's a tribal tribal leader or something. I mean, yeah, relatively. I mean, I wouldn't say – it depends what you mean by significant. I mean, he's obviously a sort of clan, you know, clan sort of – He's got people to order. He's got people around him, yeah, yeah. He's got people at his back. But the sort of world, just to interrupt, the world that he lives in, they live in tents?

Yeah, yeah. It's all nomadic. They live in a gurr. Again, please, Tom? I thought it was a yurt. But anyway, yes. Yeah, I thought it was a yurt. They have it at the edinburgh

literary festival they have a girl okay i don't think they've never heard anyone pronounce yeah well that's what they say they say welcome to the edinburgh edinburgh little felton do come into our girl i think that's just you're misinterpreting the scottish accent um probably anyway listen they live in these tents and they move around they're nomadic yeah yeah they move around i mean it is it is no matter these are not and and this is crucial actually when it comes to their attitudes to cities which i know we will be talking a little bit about their ecological attitudes uh they don't like cities and they think people who live in cities are decadent and they don't see where that's going they they don't like they don't like peasants farmers i mean they kind of well they

just yeah they they think the only people they do like interestingly as you go on go on, are artisans, people who can actually do something for them. Yeah. So they do save them. I mean, again, that's one of the things that's quite striking. They will slaughter a city, but keep the artisans. And Ali, I was intrigued to learn actors. Actors? Apparently.

There were two rebel cities and they spared the masons and the carpenters and the actors. So you with your John Wayne. I'd be fine. I'd be fine. I'd be fine. And I hope that the students. By the way, I should point out. St. Edward's are learning this as well. There is a better film.

Invaded by the Mongols. There is a better film by Omar Sharif, just in case anyone was listening. Okay. We're going to take a quick break now. And then when we're back, let's talk about Temujin, the early years. See you in a sec. I'm Marina Hyde. And I'm Richard Osman.

And together we host The Rest Is Entertainment. Cheers. See you in a sec. tickets head to the rest is entertainment.com that's the rest is entertainment.com welcome back to the rest is history and now dominic where are we up to in the life of temujin temujin he goes up they have an arranged marriage that's right isn't it i think borte is his borte and played by susan hayward in get off the film um he is he is he's what nine years old when he set off to her but he's set up in preparation for the marriage basically right when he reaches puberty then he gets mad and so off he goes and in the meantime his father is poisoned by these poisons he's poisoned yeah again bear in mind this is all secret history stuff. We have no idea whether any of this is true, but there's no reason not to believe it.

And just, if it isn't true, is it, is it conforming possibly to some formula, some expected formula of a kind of life? There is. I mean, there are some tropes there.

I mean, one of the things I found in the secret history, which is quite interesting, is that he's always got a very reverential attitude to his mother. I mean, and you, you know, you have to sort of think about that. You know, why is the world conquering jengis khan so fearful of his mother

there's a trope i mean it's this idea that he's basically well you know he has a or ted heath yes so there are there are conquerors of history yes so he's been paired up with with with his future wife, Bouté. And also his childhood friend, Jamukha. Yes. Who becomes his blood brother. And so that's a, that's another key figure. So these are two key figures.

And then as he gets older, basically it's a succession of peoples who piss him off. Yes. So the first people that Dominic just mentioned are the tatars who um they host his father they give him food but they've poisoned it and he dies several days later and chinggis khan comes back to take over uh from his dad's position and the mongols say go away we're not interested yeah now that's interesting why do you think they would reject him because he's been away and he's he's been away he's probably too young he's not seen as someone who can really sort of carry the can in a sense so i mean you know essentially it's it's a power play isn't it i mean you've got to i suppose look at it in terms of tribal politics which is

sort of fairly common that you know he would he's not someone who either they particularly knew or cared for uh um that's the argument but of course it also fits the narrative of his very you know his struggle actually the struggle to achieve his, you know, his destiny. I mean, you can see various novels coming out of that, but that's the, you know. It is like a novel. I mean, it really is like a novel. It's, you know, the archetype of myth. I mean, if you think about the great hero who suffers and has to pull himself up.

He's born with that clot of blood in his hand. So that's his destiny. He's constantly being, you know, I don't know, disinherited, shall we say. But he fights hard. And it is, you know, I mean, it is a hell of a fight. I mean, and there are periods in his early existence where we just absolutely don't know what happens to him. There's a sort of 10-year gap in the secret history. We just don't know where he is.

Well, once they reject him, they plunge him into poverty, don't they? Doesn't he live on kind of nuts and roots he lives on marmots and that's something that the listeners should bear in mind because marmots may well play a part later in the show he's living on marmots and and roots um he has a bust up with his half elder half brother vector who he kills so the evidence is stacking up this is a guy you don't want to cross. And then he gets captured by, am I pronouncing this right? The Teuchyid.

I would say the Teuchyid. But anyway, the leader- Well, Mongolian listeners, please write in and let us know. I know, yeah. The leader of this people is called Kiriltuk. And he is known as the fat man,

obviously, in Mongolian. In Mongolian. So he's kind of fatty. people is the is called kirill took and he is known as the fat man obviously in mongolian in mongolian uh but uh so he's he's kind of fatty um he's very large and he is the guy who puts um timogen in a kind of portable stocks so he becomes a kind of slave um and it's wearing the stocks that brilliant passage that i read at the top of the show oh was that what that was it was like john wayne that's john wayne impenetrable yeah yeah yeah so um but he escapes doesn't he so that's a kind of dramatic moment i mean the two the two striking things of his early of his early life really are one that his wife gets kidnapped and right and so that's the third people who piss him off yeah yeah so we've had the tatars we've had the tetchy or whatever however you can ask them and then the three meerkats yeah apparently means the wise ones but it's impossible there's been an awful lot of wife stealing with

them it's yeah yeah well it's all about it's all about humiliation and it's all about, you know, possession. And, of course, you know, one of the things that happens is every time you defeat a rival sort of clan, let's call them clans rather than tribes, you acquire a wife. So, you know, it's part of that marriage alliance. Yeah. So you build that. It's a kinship alliance. So he has an awful lot of, eventually, an awful lot of wives.

But Bilka has been kidnapped by the fat man. Yeah. And so he needs allies. So obviously he turns to his brother, Jamuka. Jamuka, sorry, Jamuka. But also he turns to a guy called Togrol. Dominic, do you know what Togrol is known as? The thin man?

No. No, this is very exciting for members of the Discord. We've called them wangs ever since the General Gordon episode. Yeah. Togrell was known as the Wang Khan. The Wang Khan. So that's the king leader. I think of you as a Wang Khan, Tom.

That's great, isn't it? I think we're the Wang Khans. Anyway, right. So Jamukha, the Wang Khan and Timurgin get him back, get Burka back. And basically Timurgin by now, he's showing kind of charisma. Yeah, Burta. Sorry, Burta. He's showing charisma.

He's showing an ability to lead. He's showing an ability to kill his enemies, to steal their wives, take their horses. Inevitably, they always do, obviously, when they fall out. Jamukha actually defeats Temujin. And this is the period when he's down and out, so to speak. But Jamukha, interestingly enough, and you won't be surprised by this, doesn't actually win friends and influence people by taking, you know, of his rivals, boiling 70 of them alive, apparently. So by boiling 70 of them alive, people sort of think, oh, this guy's even a bit too savage for us. So that basically gives another opening to Temujin, basically, to come back against Jamukha. I mean, it's that dynamic in the sense that Jamukha is almost,

I mean, this is quite interesting, is almost saying to Temujin that you're a bit too soft. Right. So Temujin is the kind of, he's the centrist. He's the liberal Democrat. Yeah. I mean, in a sense, Temujin is saying, you know, you've got to win friends and influence to be able to build a sort of a network.

Jamukha's saying, you know, this is all Nambi Pambi stuff. You know, when you defeat your foes, you do it. And again, it's interesting that when Temujin and Jamukha basically split and a number of people betrayed Jamukha and basically moved to Temujin's side, Temujin doesn't like that. I mean, he basically says, you know, you have betrayed your lord and I'm not having anyone

who's disloyal, you know, with me. So he actually has them executed as well. I mean, it's quite interesting how he develops a very clear sense of, you know, a loyalty network. And that's really quite distinctive about him. I mean, and the contrast with Jamukha is interesting. One question, Ali, before we press on with the narrative so there's there's quite um it's quite odd i would say that temujin has been he's been very poor and he's been living on these marmots and nuts and stuff but he's nevertheless able to raise an army of thousands of men to defeat his enemies you know almost sort of out of nowhere now is that because they respect his bloodline or is it or is there something that we're not being told in the source? Well, I think there's I think there's something we're not being told in the sources.

I mean, obviously, they're playing up his his weakness because it adds to the dramatic narrative of his his reemergence. But I think it's also his bloodline, his charisma and his ability to win the loyalty of people. If you look at some of the accounts, I mean, albeit, of course, the later accounts, even the Persian accounts, they sort of argue that, you know, he has a, he has a political mastery. I mean, he knows how to win people over and they compare him,

you know, with actually with Alexander and people like that. They sort of say he is the new, you know, the new Alexander, the new this. Yeah. We don't want to talk too much about Alexander because,

you know, obviously he's not a favorite of mine, but you know, it's, you should read, you should read a brilliant book ali that would change i have i want you to know that i have but ali is it not also i mean isn't it also a reflection of the fact that um the tribes are very potentially very vociferous that they split apart yes congeal again and so therefore if you have i mean essentially if you snooze you lose but equally

there's potential there if you're very charismatic and skillful for you to rise from absolutely nowhere that's right you know if you start to gather a few people around you then exponentially you'll start to get more and more and if you can keep going if you can absolutely i mean it's kind of like a computer game if you can get to 36, then you've got all the tribes underneath you. Well, I mean, the key element here is also this notion of blood brother, by the way. I mean, so what he does, previously, previous sort of like Jamukha and others, focus very, very much on the sort of kinship ties

of their various clans and tribes and so on and so forth. What Temujin does actually is he brings different groups together and he creates blood brothers. And, you know, he almost invents relationships so people say that you know the one of the secrets of his success is not to spend too much time thinking about uh kinship you know loyalties it's about yeah I mean they use the term meritocracy I think that's it's a bit much but nonetheless he's promoting people or bringing people towards him on the basis of what they can do and their abilities and of course what that means is that you're

naturally you know if people think that by siding with ten bujin you're certainly not going to be boiled in a vat of water or whatever a vat of oil for you know uh there's an attraction to you know there's some benefit to that and then he can turn their loyalty to other to other uses so he's you're quite right about sort of building that momentum and he keeps that momentum up by building different links. So what you find is also in the military organization that he builds, which is based on a sort of a decimal system, by the way.

I mean, it's very sort of, he essentially creates new groupings. You know, he brings people together- How do you mean based on a decimal system? So basically the standard standard mongol military unit is the 10 000 the tuman which is another term that is very current in modern persian as we said the tuman is 10 000 soldiers but it goes from 10 to 100 to a thousand hazara the hazaras in afghanistan right the hazaras um the thousand and they're they are designated in

this you know they're cataly, they're organised in these groups. And often old tribal loyalties are ignored in this. You see, they're brought together in different, you see what I mean? I have a question. Sure. About that. So that, you know who that reminds me of that we've done in the show? Not Alexander.

No, it's Mohammed. So he takes people that have previously been feuding tribal loyalties, and he forges something new. He's a great political innovator. Is that the same? Do you think there is a sort of slight parallel there? There have been, yeah. I mean, there is a similarity there. And, of course, the other thing is to bear in mind that the Mongols,

far from being, you know, there is an argument whether they're purely shamanistic or, you know, actually there is this sort of idea of the great sky god Tengri. So it's this notion that they do have some sort of spiritual belief. It's not quite as I mean, I know people then say the Mongols are very liberal when it comes to religions. It's not that they're liberal. They don't care. I mean, that's mainly they don't give a hoot,ot you know who you believe in as long as you pay your taxes so that's the difference really but there is there is a sort of a there is a spiritual element to it right not christian you'll be pleased to know very pleased to hear that i'm glad that we can put that out of this podcast completely now the second thing i was going to say was so when muhammad and you know the the arab conquest happened i mean one reason

the historians say for that is they say well it, it's partly because the neighbors are weak, but it's also because there's been all kinds of kind of technological and political crossover from their neighbors to prepare the ground before that. Is that also happening in the world that young Temujin is growing up? So are they getting lots of new stuff from China or are there lots of contacts that weren't there before? Or is it a kind of unchanging world?

Well, I mean, that's an interesting question because actually one of the things that the Mongols are bad at to begin with is siege warfare. So when they start their conquest of China, they're not actually very good at taking cities. It's only after their diversion into the Islamic lands,

the Khwarezm Shaf, what is now in Persia, that they then collect all these artisan and siege workers and then go back to China. I mean, they do sack sentences, but their conquest of China becomes somewhat more systematic once they pick up all this siege capability. So it is interesting that initially they're not very good, you know, at dealing with... Ali, is it not the case? I mean, they have the composite bow, which is an absolutely devastating weapon. I mean, it fires arrows faster and to more lethal effect than, say, the longbow. Yes.

And you can fire it from a horse and they grow up. And that makes them an absolutely lethal force. It's a mobile platform. But there is the argument, isn't there, that Genghis Khan launches his campaigns basically just in the nick of time because it's just before the arrival of gunpowder. Oh, yes. Yes, absolutely. Yes. Yes. You know, a few more decades, they wouldn't have been able to do it because gunpowder would have put paid to them.

Although, I mean, of course, you know, the composite bow is probably a much more effective weapon than the early musket i mean it's just a question of it's just a question of who can use it to be it to be able to use the composite bow on horseback requires years of training obviously uh which you don't need if you're using the musket so that's absolutely right i mean the the gunpowder empire has really put an end to the nomad you know the but those first muskets as you say ali i mean they're more likely to go off in your face aren't they yeah you know i mean a tiny bit longer than and the mongols use it i mean they do use gun yeah they do they do don't they for show but yeah well they're the first users in europe um i gather anyway so i think i think um let's let's just

finish the account of how um temujin becomes chingis khan right so we've been talking about jamuka yeah this blood brother who's turned into his kind of enemy and who boils people alive yeah um they have a final bust up don't they yeah um and the wang khan is also involved in that the wang khan has also turned against temujin he gets defeated by temujin and then jamuka um gets handed over by his own men that's right am i right that temujin basically says because you're my blood brother i will spare you yes yes and jamuka says no kill me well he says there is no there isn't room for two sons in the sky yeah so we're not gonna have this um but again it's interesting that you know the point you make there is again quite interesting and a bit of an insight

into temujin's charisma in the sense that he that jamuka's own men hand him over i mean it's interesting that, you know, the point you make there is, again, quite interesting and a bit of an insight into Temujin's charisma in the sense that Jamukha's own men hand him over. I mean, it's quite, you know, they decide we know who's on the up here. So again, his political skills, isn't it, rather than just martial prowess? Yes, yes, absolutely. And I mean, I think one of the things we need to get away from is really this notion that the Mongols are purely military achievement. I mean, they're quite politically savvy, actually, in what they do. And so what he says, he he said you're my blood brother i'd much rather sort of be with you and whatever jamuka says absolutely you know there can't be uh two suns in the sky but he says the

only thing is you know uh you know execute me but i don't shed my blood i mean this is a so it it's again something that's quite common as we said that you don't shed basically royal blood by shedding how do they kill him so they put him on a i think they break his back on the on a wheel i mean it's it's a sort of a wheel thing and they break his back yeah that's not a good way to go and other ways of i mean the other ways that we'll see later if you see us you know obviously in the middle east is one of the famous ones is wrapping the caliph up in the carpet and trampling him to death yeah yeah so it's it's it's to make i mean i'm not sure that means he doesn't bleed by the way but maybe you don't see it it's not okay okay so that 1206 yeah jamukha is is killed he's then declared

yeah jengis han lord of all who dwell in felt tents and that's really the pivotal he is now in charge of the mongol confederacy he has this huge military potential uh you know he's politically top dog now what most chinese and other observers say is now's the time when they start fighting each other and it all dissipates but not in this case basically a coiled spring. Exactly. Right. I think we should leave it here for today, but we will be back tomorrow with Ali Ansari and Genghis, Chinggis Khan. We will launch the Mongol conquests and see what Genghis, Chinggis does next.

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