The Rest Is History - 248. Medieval Treason

Episode Date: October 31, 2022

Join Tom and Dominic at the National Archives as they explore the history of treason in Britain, going right back to the 1351 treason act. How has treason changed since its inception? Why are traitors hanged, drawn, and quartered? What impact did the reformation have upon treason? As these questions are answered, the story will interlink with some of the biggest characters in British history: Richard III, Henry VIII, James I, and more! Treason: People, Power and Plot opens at The National Archives on 5th November and runs until 6th April. It is free to all. For all information and to delve deeper please visit nationalarchives.gov.uk/treason. This episode is sponsored by the National Archives. Join The Rest Is History Club (www.restishistorypod.com) for ad-free listening to the full archive, weekly bonus episodes, live streamed shows and access to an exclusive chatroom community. *The Rest Is History Live Tour 2023*: Tom and Dominic are back on tour this autumn! See them live in London, New Zealand, and Australia! Buy your tickets here: restishistorypod.com Twitter:  @TheRestHistory @holland_tom @dcsandbrook Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Thank you for listening to The Rest Is History. For weekly bonus episodes, ad-free listening, early access to series, and membership of our much-loved chat community, go to therestishistory.com and join the club. That is therestishistory.com. Thanks for listening to The Rest Is History. For bonus episodes, early access, ad-free listening, and access to our chat community, please sign up at restishistorypod.com. Or, if you're listening on the Apple Podcasts app, you can subscribe within the app in just a few clicks. Today's episode of The Rest Is History on treason in medieval and Tudor England

is sponsored by the National Archives. Enjoy the show. Hello and welcome to The Rest Is History and Dominic. This has been a month absolutely full of news, has it not? I mean, one could say there's been an excess of news. You can never have too much news, has it not? I mean, one could say there's been an excess of news. You can never have too much news, Tom. Well, so, I don't know if you saw a few weeks back, in the Sunday Times, one of the many papers for which you write. Of course, I must have read every word. Well, so did you notice this?

That there was a report about the treason laws. And it said, ministers are planning to, amid all the other things they're planning, ministers are planning to update all the other things they're planning. Ministers are planning to update Britain's 650 year old treason laws so they can be used to prosecute jihadis, hackers and other malign actors who swear allegiance to a hostile foreign power. You will recall that I was described as a malign actor by the Scotsman at the Edinburgh Festival for my as thomas beckett a man who himself had his issues with the monarchy well it would be very exciting if bad acting could be included in the remit of the treason marilyn monroe impersonation i guess that what they're talking about there is particularly i mean the notorious case is shamima begum isn't

it the um the girl who uh went out from london to uh become a jihadi bride um and the ISIS Beatles, again, the people from Britain who went out, pledged allegiance to the Islamic State, burned their passports, all that kind of stuff. And the difficulty of applying the treason law. But I guess the thing that really stands out maybe for lots of people is that there is a treason law and that it is 650 years old. It's a good story, isn't it? Now, people may have noticed, Tom the unusual the extraordinary charge the intimacy i think the intimacy of our opening banter that we're actually in the same room for months gazing into each other's eyes it's

incredibly moving you have to be here really um we are at the national archives aren't we tom and does it have anything to do with treason dominic it does It does. Let me just say this. Tom, have you been to the National Archives before as a top historian? I've never been. Never been. So, Tom, this is a very exciting and moving moment.

So we're at the National Archives and they have an amazing new exhibition that is starting this autumn and it's all about... On the 5th of November, I think. All about treason. So we thought we would come along...

The perfect start, the 5th of November. There you go. So we thought we would come along 5th of november there you go so we thought we would come along guy falk style have a little look um and tom we are very very fortunate because we are joined by an absolute top treason expert one of the men behind the exhibition it is of course you and roger you and thank you so much for joining us on The Rest Is History. Hi. It's a great pleasure to have you on the show. So is this something that you've always been into? Have you always had a sort of treacherous heart?

It's, I think, treason legislation and the Treason Act and this treason exhibition that we've been working on, it really brings in so many different things about medieval modern history. I think it's almost impossible not to be fascinated by some of the subjects that it covers yeah and so uh yeah it's been just exciting to try and dig into some of these stories and and tell that long long history so tom you did in characteristic tom holland fashion i know you've done loads of preparation on roman treason which sadly which sadly we won't have time for today.

Maybe we'll come to it in some elliptical manner. But the idea of treason has obviously been, treason has been a crime that's different from other crimes. That's been around for a long time, right? Yeah, so concepts of treason have been around for a really, really long time. In England, it's Alfred the Great that we really start to see what we might think of as high treason, distinguishing the crown

from the nobility. But concepts of treason have been around forever, really. That idea of betrayal, that idea of someone letting you down or levying war against you or plotting your death, it really has been around for a very long time. Could I just very briefly mention the Romans? And he was going to. So they had this idea of maestestas as lace majesty the the idea that you

commit an offense against the majesty of the roman people and that's something that exists under the republican system of government but then when the um when the caesars come to power it starts to be applied by individual emperors to take out their enemies and so an idea that you can commit treason against the state starts to narrow down and become the idea that you commit treason against an individual ruler but in england and then ultimately britain it's the other way around isn't it you over the span of the the centuries this 650 years that the treason act has been in existence to begin with it's very focused on the figure of the monarch. And now we would understand treason as being something

that is targeted against the whole country, against all the people within the country. Do you think that would be a kind of fair way of putting it? Yeah, so one of the things I think we've drawn out by doing such a long history in one exhibition is how these ideas change and develop over time. Because as you say, ideas from the Roman system like Lesser Majesté don't really get picked up as much in England as they do in, say, France,

where it becomes a much more central part of the system. But in England, particularly in the period up to the 14th century, it's really undefined. And then we start to see this development first against the crown and then moving into treason against the state. So could we could we look at how the the the act that comes in in 1351, the backstory to that? And basically it's all about kings called Edward, isn't it? So Edward I, very popular with the Welsh, very popular with the Scots. But it's in Wales that the kind of the form of punishment that I guess most people would associate with treason, hanging, drawing and quartering is kind of made emblematic. And Edward I is fighting against the Welsh.

And there is a Welsh prince who basically, as Edward sees it, betrays him. And could you just tell us about him and the terrible fate that is visited on him? So Edward I is very much, uses treason in a very personal way, I would say. He's very, he's offended by the Welsh princes fighting back against him. He's offended by the Scots on the northern border. And with Daffod Ap Griffith, he very much makes this a symbolic act. So they specifically link specific crimes to actions. So drawing out of entrails is very much linked to specific acts.

Hanging someone, drawing them. Drawing is actually the most emblematic punishment associated with treason, being so what's it what's it symbolizing it's in a way i guess it's a form of um taking someone down or embarrassment's the wrong word but making someone suffer a very visible punishment they're drawn at a horse's tail through the town or through the city to the place of execution and some people were practically half dead by the time they got to the actual the actual point of execution and the hanging is that is that you're kind of lifting them up from the they're no longer allowed

to keep their feet on on the on the earth on the soil of the country spectacular hanging is spectacular a huge crowd can see it right in a way they might not be able to but if there's a symbolism to it as well yeah of course and. And presumably the castration element as well, you're extirpating the entire line. So the castration, is that drawing? Is that part of the drawing phase or the quartering phase? So the drawing is actually the physical being drawn by a horse's tail. It's not that disemboweling process.

Okay. That is often part of it. That's often part of the punishment that is brought out, but that's not the drawing as such. They've almost been conflated over the years, but the, the hanging element is, is visible.

We know in some instances for Edward, the second train, for example, that Hugh Spencer, the younger gets seemingly hanged on a huge, huge set of scaffolds so that people can see this is visible, this is public. But they're not allowed to die at that point.

They're then brought down, often disemboweled, sometimes castrated, but not always. And then finally they're... Ported. So that the four parts, they're cut into four, right? Yeah, so they'd have their heads chopped off first and then the four parts. But again, is there a kind of symbolism that you as a traitor have aspired to remove the head of the kingdom? So your head is removed and you have aspired to divide the kingdom. So you yourself are divided. Is that kind of the idea that lies behind it?

So it's difficult to tell with all of this because none of the legislation actually such actually defines this in the medieval period this is custom it's custom it's brought out in law law codes but it's never really defined particularly while treason is undefined prior to the 14th century and but in terms of the quartering that is again very much this visible spectacle because these quarters are sent to yeah right york norwich bristol wherever and they're often linked to places where an individual had committed deeds or places that might be fermenting and we actually have one example of payments being made to make sure that these quarters were preserved and got to their intended locations without rotting in the process so we know that they are being sent to these places,

and they are being exhibited, and they don't want them to... They're like in a barrel of wine or something like that, are they? It's a lot of salt, I think. Salt and lots of wrapping is the key element. I'd volunteer for that job if you're going to do a medieval job. Law and order. Yeah, I'm very much about social stability. Yes. So talking of social stability, let's move on towards some of the documents. I know, Tom, you love the quartering but we have to we have to talk about some of the

the proper the historical stuff because you have the most amazing selection of so of documents you start with the treason act so the road to the treason act how do we get there like what why do people feel they need it so under ebba the first we very much get treason being used as a charge against the king's enemies whether well in wales or are they going to trial are they being tried so this is a very interesting question because edward i's prosecution of these people is often relies on what's called the king's record so in medieval, you're not supposed to be accuser and sentencer in the same moment. So Edward I comes up with this elaborate concept where essentially he presents evidence to, say, parliament, for example, and they are required to say whether these instances are classed as treason. Are they treasonous?

When they say that they are, the king takes that as this evidence being presented to him by his nobles and his justices can then proceed to sentencing. And that is different from bills of attainder, which you mentioned the dispensers, who are not things you get soft drinks from. They are powerful noblemen in the reign of Edward II, father and son son and they get tainted don't they and that's kind of um slightly different

that namely the king can basically say i'm bringing in a specific bill of attainder against against you hugh dispenser the elder hugh dispenser the younger and they get killed except in this case it's complicated because it's actually the king's enemies who are doing it. Yeah, so I'd say it's a dual concept. Edward II's reign is a bit of a nightmare for treason because you get, on one hand, the king's record. On the other hand, this attainting process, which is probably just briefly say what attainting means. It's literally to do with a taint on someone's bloodline. So the main way that treason is different from any other crime, murder for example, is that nobles, estates and goods are forfeited to the crown indefinitely.

Their heirs cannot inherit. So the crime of the father is inherited by the sons and grandsons or whatever. Yes, very much so. And that's what makes treason, at a moment where you're talking about nobility and the crown that is a powerful tool and what you see in edward ii's reign is factionalism favorites

utilizing these charges whoever's got the king's ear can use this this charge this accusation against their enemies and it becomes a powerful way of wiping out entire bloodlines if you have the king's ear, if you have power. And that's really where I think the Treason Act comes from because if you can charge anyone with treason, it doesn't really have a meaning anymore. And so that's where, under Edward III's rule, we see an attempt to try and redraw that boundary in the sand to say this is acceptable, but this is not

acceptable. Okay, so that's how we get to the Bill of 1351. So you've got in front of you the text, have you, of the original, this is the original text of the Treason Act, basically. Yeah, so what we've got here, and this is very much the heart of our exhibition, I should say very briefly, we are actually using the date 1352 for the act of this. And that's because under medieval concepts of time, they didn't use December as the end of the year. Yeah, of course. So for the medieval people, this would have taken place in 1351. But in modern historical thought, we use 1352.

And it's very complicated because lawyers use 1351 and historians use 1352 and at the national archives obviously we have the historical documents and we tend to use the the modern historical dating but we also have a function of as the as what's called legislation.gov so publishing legislation and because that's legal thought that uses 1351 so let's just say the early 1350s um so so what what does it specify what can you be basically what can you be done for uh as a traitor so what we have here is we have the treason act and we have actually got two copies we've got the parliament royal copy which is the kind of precursor and what this has is the nobles actually asking the king to define

what treason is so it's not just coming from the king it's coming from a request is the nobles actually asking the king to define what treason is so it's not just coming from the king it's coming from a request from his nobles and obviously for people who can't see it i mean it literally is a role i mean it's a role of parchment this is presumably written on with um do you know what the ink would be gall ink i am gall ink probably and it's written in french in anglo-norman french yeah and so we have the Parliament roll in our exhibition, which is just amazing. We've got the actual first statute roll. So when we talk about legislation today going on the statute book, we have the medieval version, literally.

And it's got so much important legislation on it that it very rarely comes out. So it's just amazing to have it in the exhibition. It's very much the heart of everything, this entire story that we're going through so as i understand it there are six six six terms is that right um so attempting to kill or even imagining the death of the king queen or elders male heir to the throne yes but that's i mean even imagining it that's how the eighth uses that doesn't it yeah so the term is compassing and imagining which is a very broad term and it gets it gets radically reinterpreted as time goes on and each time you set a new precedent and that is still on the statute book yes okay and the second one also violating the king's companion his eldest unmarried daughter or the eldest male heir's wife

that's still on the statute book it is so what does that mean uh violating does that mean raping or so what it's an attempt essentially to preserve the royal bloodline it's to avoid any any external influence on that line so yeah it's very much about preserving the inheritance now i should say that that clause is still in modern legislation, but it was actually updated in 2015 to make it gender neutral, because obviously succession to the Crown Act was brought in. But what does violating mean? I mean, does it mean... Well, if it's your imagination, Tom. So, I guess it depends on how you would interpret medieval language, and people have been doing that throughout the centuries since 1352.

Many fees for the barristers there. Yeah. Beyond the monarch, it talks about what's called levying war. Now this is a really interesting concept because levying war, this is a time when we're talking about the crown and nobles. So we're talking about

unfurling banners in battlefield in open war. Actually, when we get to the later 14th century, the crown and the justice get into a right mess about all of because the Peasants' Revolt of 1381, they think this is treasonous. But actually, it's not levying war as in the way that it was defined in statute. And so they try and prosecute the peasants under this term, but they can't really. They can't make it stick, basically.

Yeah, in some cases, they try and make it stick. But it's a reinterpretation of this and is that the statute book yes that is okay so living war against the crown in his realm that's that's that's bad um adhering to the king's enemies in his own realm or elsewhere i mean that's what i guess the isis people have been doing so it's an interesting um one about how is being written, because at this time as well, a lot of the king's nobles and the king himself claim lands in France. So there's a very technical terminology being used here in order that if the king went to war as a noble with another noble in France, that that wouldn't be treasonous because it's not in the realm. The interpretation of that has evolved over time. So if you're broadcasting for the Nazis or running off to sign up to the caliphate, presumably those terms would still apply, would they?

It's very, I mean, this originally... That's still on the statute book, is it? Yes, this is on the statute book today. But all of this is an interpretation of the Anglo-Norman French. So we've always got to be careful about how we examine these things. And there's a whole load of more clauses that have now been removed. So those are the key clauses. But there's also concerns about counterfeiting.

But they go very specific on the counterfeiting. It's specific money from Luxembourg that's been brought into the kingdom. You want to watch out for that, Luxembourg. What a shame that's been removed. As someone who was born in Luxembourg, I can't say anything on that. They surely use the euro in Luxembourg now, do they? They do, yes. So would that count as treasonous?

No, so this has all been taken out of the legislation. I've spent far too long writing for Britain's most popular newspaper, Tom, clearly. So this comes in under the reign of Edward III. And Edward III is a triumphant king, but then is succeeded by Richard II, who is a more histrionically autocratic figure, isn't he? Yeah, you see, under Edward III, you see a very strong relationship

between the crown and the nobles. Under Richard II, that is very much not the case, because the king is a child when he takes the throne and you see a lot of factionalism returning um and we've kind of talk about that more in the exhibition we've actually got inventories of some of the goods that the favorites are forfeiting um including this lovely bed cover which is embroidered with butterflies and that's the um that's one of the king's nobles has got this butterfly a bed set but but richard ii ends up deposed by his cousin who becomes henry bollenbrook who becomes henry the fourth i mean toppling a king an anointed king that's the definition of treason isn't it

so henry the fourth is a traitor presumably so this is a very interesting question because when parliament are considering all of this and when the nobility are considering all of this around richard's deposition they get almost the way there but they they force them to they depose him first they but they force him to abdicate willingly um in quotations i would say so it's very much they they don't take that final step and one of the really interesting things we've seen putting this exhibition together is that process by which in the 17th century they will take that final step. But under Richard II, Parliament's not quite powerful enough to do it. They're sort of inhibited from doing it, basically. the fourth and Henry the fifth, if people are rushing around saying, actually, you're usurpers,

Richard the second is the true king. Are they being condemned as traitors? Yeah, so we see at this time, treason, treasonous words start coming into the mix. So this idea of compassing and imagining, it's there's a question of what that actually means, what the action is. Is there an over-action of actually trying to imagine or plot or plan the death of the king? And under Henry IV, we start to see words being brought into that, particularly words around claiming that Richard II is still alive. So we've got an amazing bill in the exhibition of someone called John Whitelock. And he says, I was with the king in Scotland. He is still alive.

He should be put back on the throne. He's a conspiracy theorist. Well, he takes it to a great extent. He actually offers to submit himself to the royal justices and put himself in the Tower of London and says, test my story. Oh, that's crunchy. If you find I'm wrong, I will submit to any punishment you ascribe to me. But if I'm right, let me free and put Richard back on the throne.

We don't know whether his claim was actually tested because he actually breaks out of the Tower of London and escapes. Oh, does he? And he had an inside man who actually suffers a traitor's fate in his stead. Right. So the guy who helped him sneak out gets hanged drawn and quartered in his place that's harsh so before we go in the second half we'll talk we'll move into the tudors but before we get some break because we've got a few minutes just before the

break can you tell us something about because you've got some other amazing looking documents here which are from the sort of very late part of the medieval period yeah so what we've got here is that extension of compassing imagining so we have words first of all but then we have ideas about astrology magic necromancy as being treasonous treasonous magic tell me about treasonous magic so this is a story of elena cobham who's often described as a royal a royal witch and she is the wife of humphrey duke of gloucester who is the hit the kings of henryrey, Duke of Gloucester, who is the king, so Henry VI, his uncle. And he's essentially next in line to the throne if Henry VI dies,

because he hasn't got an heir at this point. And what Elna and her associates are accused of doing is summoning spirits and magical demons to predict when the king will die. So they're not predicting, they're not plotting the death of the king as such. But that's the whole imagining the death, imagining the death of the king. So they're imagining, they're trying to find, work out when this will happen and when Eleanor will become queen.

And she's the one who ends up, kind of Game of Thrones style, having to walk the walk of shame through the streets of London. Like Cersei Lannister. Yeah, so we have, her trial's really interesting. So we have two sides to it. There's the trial for treason, which is slightly fudged because they don't have in precedent a way of putting a noble woman on trial at this time. Right, so for women it's different.

Is it the penalty or? So under the Treason Act, well actually the Treason Act doesn't define the punishment of the tradition. But the tradition is that a woman would be burnt rather than hanged, drawn and quartered. But they don't really know. Under Magna Carta, nobles at this time have the right to be tried by a panel of their peers, a jury of their peers. But it doesn't say anything about women so they don't really know how to try try eleanor so they put her on trial as a kind of associate they put her associates properly on trial but they also have this secondary religious tribunal for which we don't have the records and they are the ones that find her guilty of certain heresies and she's made

to walk a public walk of shame. Shame. On three occasions. You'd be very good at that, Tom. You've missed your calling. So the documents that we have about that, what's this specific document? So in the exhibition,

we've got the indictments against her associates, who are, two of them are, well, one of them is hanged, drawn, and quartered. One of them dies in prison while waiting the results. But we've also got a story of the kind of, what happens after the trial, of them is hanged, drawn and quartered. One of them dies in prison while waiting the results. But we've also got a story of the kind of what happens after the trial, because Eleanor is a very polarizing figure. People love her or people really do not like her. And we have a case here recorded of someone who essentially is very pro Eleanor and anti what has happened in the trial. And she accosts Henry VI while he's riding

across Blackheath and essentially says, you are stupid. The whole of England knows that you are stupid. Send Elna back to her husband because as well as this public walk of shame, she's been made to divorce her husband or her marriage has been annulled because it was claimed that she used magic

to seduce Humphrey in the first place. Actually, that's probably not true. We think it's probably a fertility medicine or fertility magic that's been used. There's a woman called the Witch Next Eye, Marjorie Jourdain. The Witch Next Eye? Next Eye. So Eye is a place near Westminster. Oh, okay.

So it's the witch that lives near Westminster. Yeah. And she is actually burnt as part of this process because she's accused of providing eleanor with these magical potions these magical remedies okay i mean this is very much the the kind of the traditional understanding of how medieval this is exactly yeah as a modern historian this is precisely how i imagine medieval history to be which is fertility rituals people shouting that other people are stupid i mean but but having said

that i mean eleanor isn't burned did she i mean she she gets kind of packed off yeah she's she's sent away for life imprisonment in the end but um yeah no no physical punishment but in reaction to this they change the law so they now work out this this naughty question they hadn't got before and peer wrestlers of the realm are now put on trial by a jury of their male peers right and so that will become important for the tudors and um the last document that we should look at before we go to the break is um that's the best aesthetically it's it's a wonderful document issued by the first of the tudors henry the seventh so this is a huge role. It's a massive role. It's a massive role. I mean if you unfurled that role, Tom,

I'm not exaggerating to say you could unfurl that role and it would stretch from here to the exit of the National Archives. You could carpet the whole corridor, couldn't you? You could carpet Tom Holland's house with that role. So that's in the name of Henry VII. Who is the traitor who is being figured in that role?

So this is a very interesting document and entry. This is the attainder of Richard III. So again, that same tainting process. Except when this is brought before Parliament, Richard's already dead because Henry has killed and defeated him at the Battle of Bosworth. Henry Tudor, categorically a traitor at Bosworth he he stands up against the king in open battle with banners unfurled and the king dies in that battle except because henry is now on the throne he posthumously attains richard iii and he does this presumably he's not calling him richard iii he's calling him duke of gloucester or whatever yes richard duke of gloucester and what he does is he backdates the start of his reign to the day before the Battle of Bosworth. And by doing so, he says, Richard was a traitor. I was a king. You traitorously stood against me in battle.

Right. And so I'm obviously an absolute whiz at reading medieval handwriting. And I can't help noticing. So this one is in English, right? Yes. So by the later half of the 15th century, these records start to appear in English rather than the Anglo-Norman or the Latin in previous years. And so it was introduced in Parliament. Presumably Parliament is either packed with Henry's supporters or, you know, people have just tailored their cloth to fit the new regimes. So with these kinds of things, nobody would vote against them, right? So it's interesting. With Richard III's attainder, we actually know that there was a bit of dissent, particularly among the commons, about how this was being received.

And we don't have records of that in the parliamentary rolls, but we have it from other accounts that this was sore questioned with, this but ultimately henry's in a position of power at this point and to stand against him and to go against that wouldn't really have been okay so the battle of bosworth obviously ends the middle ages modernity begins the tudors arrive and i think that um in the break we'll have a break now and then when we come back we'll look at how the Tudors used... Top treason coming out of it. Top treason coming. But if you want to see the documents that we've been discussing, or any others, do come to this incredible exhibition, Treason, People, Power and Plot, at the National Archives.

It is absolutely free. You don't even need to book it. And you can get information on the opening hours and all that kind of stuff at the National Archives website, nationalarchives.gov.uk. We will be back with Tudor treason trials. I'm Marina Hyde. And I'm Richard Osman. And together we host The Rest Is Entertainment. It's your weekly fix of entertainment news, reviews, splash of showbiz gossip. And on our Q&AA we pull back the curtain on entertainment and we tell you how it all works. We have just launched our Members Club. If you want ad-free listening, bonus episodes and early access to live tickets, head to therestisentertainment.com. That's therestisentertainment.com. Hello, welcome back to The Rest Is History. We are still here in the great cavernous expanse of the National Archives,

surrounded by parchments and rolls and all kinds of weird and wonderful things from their treason exhibition. And Tom, we have reached the top century for treason, which is that... I know, all treason fans love the Tudors, don't they? Yeah, well, we should discuss. We will get on to discussing who our favourite and least and least favorite tudor traitors are spoiler alert obviously thomas moore is a very bad man um so ewan uh in the first half you were taking us through a lot of medieval treason so what should we start with so i have here i'm rustling this piece of paper which i can i'll reassure people it's not a piece of parchment it's not a piece of parchment it is a it is a printout of a transcript so whereas anne late queen of england lately our

wife lately attainted so everyone knows where we're going with this this is anne boleyn so anne boleyn's treason trial she is tried by peers isn't she she is yes so she's guilty of what witchcraft imagining the death of the king as well so not witchcraft okay the accusations against us we've got her trial records in the exhibition and they they practically never come out so this is an amazing opportunity to come and see them they accused her of incest with her brother and other several um courtiers and of plotting the death of the king and inciting them to plot the death of the king but there's no charges in here of witchcraft even though henry thought that henry put it about didn't he that he'd been bewitched into marriage but they don't they don't think that'll stand up in court

basically it's not recorded in the trial proceedings but they do go into um a lot of detail in other instances they talk about her and her brother george and tongues in each other's mouths and all this kind of this detail. But does that count as treason? Because you're, I don't know, committing, you're cuckolding the king. Does that come under the remit of the Treason Act? So for the men involved, it potentially does. But for Anne, that's not necessarily a charge that would stand up.

So which is why they have to accuse her of plotting the death of the king and inciting. And so that's what gets her. She's convicted of treason. Yes. Okay, so the next question is, the penalty for a woman is to be burnt. So why is she not burnt? So it's described as an act of leniency on the king's behalf. I'm not sure that's quite the way that we should be thinking about this. But he arranges, and we should be thinking about this um but he arranges

and we have to warrant for this he arranges for her to be beheaded at the tower instead of being burnt here and this is his he's writing to william kingston the constable of the tower and he says um we moved by pity do not wish the same and to be committed to be burned by fire but we command that immediately after receipt of these presents upon the green within our tower of London, the foresaid the head of the same and shall be caused to be cut off. Interestingly, this document is now in a book. It's bound in a book.

So that's, it's not, it's not on a, they've dispensed with roles. I mean, I'm betraying my ignorance of medieval archives here. So we have the trial records are on parchment rolls. Yeah.

Um, but they're actually, there's an, there's an interesting materiality to them in that they're part of what are called the bags of secrets, or the bag of secrets. And this is a whole series of records

that are literally kept in parchment bags, and they're kept in a secret cupboard at Westminster to which only three people have the key. Even now, isn't it? So not today, not since the 19th century. And these are trials that are particularly constitutionally important or have some sort of particular importance and they'd literally take the records and put them away where they could be kept secretly so as i understand it

part of the you know henry the eighth brings in new refinements of the treason act and one of the refinements in the specific case of amber lynn is that it becomes treasonous to defend amberlin is that still on the statute book could tudor historians be accused of treason so pretty much all of henry the apes um additions to treason legislation are removed as soon as he's dead by his son and his son's counsel right they say he's gone too far and they take it right back to 1352 and they do that actually throughout so obviously henry breaks with the roman church and that creates a whole lot of new treasons in and of itself but as the country moves from being catholic to being protestant going back to catholic again you see new legislation being introduced and then immediately repealed by his successor so

they always go back to 1352 it seems to be that they they're seeing it as the core legislation it's the treason equivalent of magna carta yes exactly the same so so um you talk about um how the introduction the reformation complicates the whole business of treason because obviously uh if if you don't want to sign up to the Reformation as a matter of principle, then you have to decide whether you know what is the worst to to forfeit your immortal soul or to risk your life by committing treason. decides that he would rather lose his head than his soul is Thomas More. The idea that people will betray their country rather than their ideals, do you think that concept begins with More in British history? It's a challenge that's never really there in the same way before Thomas More. But I think you do see, and thinking back to Richard II's reign for example you do see nobles standing up against they're not afraid to suffer the consequences

and we do get people particularly in Richard II's reign saying I will stand up for these beliefs So those are kind of Lollards and people like that is it? So you get it on a Lollard basis but you also get it amongst the nobility so with the Lords Appellant and then the Counter Appellants. So we argue the

national interest is not being served by this particular king basically but that's slightly different isn't it i mean that's that's a kind of opinion the government's no you know good but saying you know my principles are more important than my loyalty to a king i mean that's a kind of slight refinement of it because that's where we'll go with say you know the french revolutionary the french revolution the communists and all that kind of stuff. And indeed, ISIS, that these are people who passionately believe that their loyalty to ideals should trump their loyalty to the monarch or to the state. Yeah, I think that's correct. In the earlier period, it's very much the process is not right.

I'm not getting a fair trial. And that's what they're standing up for. But you're right that with the break from the Roman Church, we do see this spiritual element being brought into it. And it's there with the Lollards, but it's never really there on a nationwide scale as it is with the break from Rome.

So before we move on to the next document, let's just focus for a second on Thomas More. I think you're unsound on Thomas More, Tom, because we've established in previous episodes of The Rest is History that you're, I think, deep down... Crypto-Catholic. I think you're unsound on Thomas Moore, Tom. Because we've established in previous episodes of The Rest is History that you're, I think, deep down... Crypto-Catholic.

I think you're a bit unsound on The Reformation, aren't you? It depends on your definition of soundness. I think I'm impeccably sound on it. So on Thomas Moore, are you a Hillary Mantellite, or... No, I'm not.

Yeah, I see. No, I'm a man for all seasons. Are you? You're a man for all seasons. Yeah. I really am. I'm more... I'm absolutely team Thomas Cromwell. I love Thomas Cromwell. Yeah,omwell i love thomas but so cromwell also ends up with his head off and that is that is unjust

isn't it so he's not brought to trial henry just says i'm bringing a bill of attainder off with his head but he's not guilty of treason is he is he guilty of treason he is well because because a bill of attainder is somebody's nodding actually we haven't told the audience but there are people in the background and people are nodding yeah because the bill of it you know if you're if you're if you're tainted then then you you're you're a traitor and so and so that remains um a kind of arrow in the quiver of the monarch so yeah from from the wars of the roses onward basically parliamentary attainder is the way you go to prosecute someone for treason so it's the it's the go-to measure because if you have parliament support you introduce it and they are attainted in fact by parliament so it's the definitely becomes the go-to measure but again thomas moore's records

are squirreled away into these bags of secrets and we actually have that they're really interesting in that they record his own words in them and they record them in English as opposed to Latin so that they can bring him down on these words about, for example, the sword of two edges. If you one, you can either forfeit your soul or forfeit your life. Yeah. And they record these words in the official records. We should say at this point also that if you are accused of treason, you don't get a defence lawyer, do you? Not until the 1690s. Not at this period, no.

You do see at the start of Henry's reign moves to start making a fairer process in that further proof is required. But at this point, you still don't get that defence that you would get in later years. So we've got two more documents to go. Let's look at this. I mean, this is a huge, again,

so this is not really it's not bound in a book is it it's um i don't know what you'd call this is a technical term for this kind of arrangement so it's a modern this is a modern binding of very miscellaneous documents put together this is all about porridge isn't it this this document this is just a random file fans of porridge yeah this is this is the moment you've been waiting for porridge and treason porridge and trees we we do very niche subjects and the rest is history so talk us through porridge and treason so this is the act um brought in for poisoning in henry the eighth reign and this is all about a man called richard roose richard roose is a cook and he works in the household of the

bishop of rochester um john fisher and one day the porridge gets poisoned in the morning. Now, the bishop doesn't actually eat his porridge that morning. And so he's absolutely fine. He's deemed to be, they record that he's sick. And so he doesn't have porridge that day. But other members in the household do eat this porridge. And there's also a lot of this porridge is given out to local poor people as alms. And it's recorded that Roos had put something in the porridge while it was brewing and he's poisoning people. Now, we don't know how all of this, we don't know what actually happened because the Bishop of Rochester is a big supporter of Catherine of Aragon. So very much anti-Amblin and the King and Amblin's family

are not particularly happy with him doing so and supporting Catherine. So there are some suggestions that this may have been a way to try and bump off John Fisher, but we don't know for sure. Richard Roos has actually recorded in one Chronicle account as having put the poison in as

a joke. He thinks people will get a bit sick, but not that they'll die. Porridge banter. But what we see is he's brought in and he's originally charged with murder because that is what he's essentially done. But Henry VIII is very paranoid against poisoning generally.

It's a thing they do at Rome. It's a thing they do at the papal court. It's not a thing that happens in England. And he's frankly terrified by it seemingly. And what we see is, so on the table here, we've got the draft act for poisoning. In the exhibition, we've actually got the final enrolled version in the parliament rolls. And what we see is a change in the language that makes poisoning move from being murder to being high treason. And that is happening after the fact.

So Richard Roos, it changes while he's been... Poisoning who? Poisoning anybody. Anybody. And is this... I mean, you kind of implied that this is a sinister foreign thing that they get up to in Italy or whatever. Romish behaviour. Romish behaviour.

Is that the kind of the subtext for it? That decent Protestants don't go around poisoning porridge or... So at this point, we're not into the Protestant era yet. We're still in the... He around poisoning porridge or so at this point we're not into the protestant era yet we're still in the he's not broken from rome at this point this is 1531 but there is the idea that it's a foreign thing to do but also it draws on concepts of what's called petty treason now that's a different form of treason that is also in the 1352 act and that talks that makes it treason to try, in the same terms as the king,

to try and compass and imagine the death of your master or to kill your master. That is treasonous behavior. So, Roos' case, I think, draws a bit on that as well. Right. And then, so that's off the statute book now, right? I mean, to poison somebody, you're not guilty of treason. So, that is repealed at the end of Henry VIII's reign.

If I poison Tom, that's not treachery. I'm your master. I feel hanging, drawing, and quartering would be too good for you. Too good, right, I see. Let's move on to the final document. I'm not even going to dignify that ludicrous remark with the reply. Well, it is worth considering briefly in that, actually, Richard Roos' punishment is not to be hanged,'t he gets boiled you'd boil me he is publicly boiled

to death in smithfield smithfield so and that's a horrible death um being but being unlike being drawn and quarters right okay but just just to go back thomas moore uh thomas cromwell and berlin uh catherine howard all have their heads chopped off. So that idea that you are upper class, generally you're not going to have horrible things. The kind of the public, the humiliating agonizing deaths, these are for the people from the

lower orders. Robert Asquith was hung in a he was hanged in a cage wasn't he, in York or something. You know the guy from the rebellion Pilgrim of Grace. They do like to come up with particularly horrific deaths of people wasn't he in york or something you know the the guy from the rebellion pilgrimage of grace they do like to come up with particularly horrific deaths of people who have who have stood up um so john old old castles rebellion in the in the 15th century he is essentially hanged and burnt at the same time it's combining heresy and treason in richard ruse's case it's meant to visualize the

act of poisoning porridge so he's taken in and out of the boiling water i was taken in on several occasions but but that idea so that idea back in the the early 15th century that you can be condemned you can be simultaneously a traitor and a heretic i mean under elizabeth and then under james the first that's something that the kings are let and queens are less keen to engage in, isn't it? Because under Elizabeth, the Jesuits who were coming over are condemned very much as traitors, not as heretics. And when we come to the last document, which is probably the most famous display of treason in British history, the gunpowder plot, this exhibition that your

wonderful exhibition opens on the 5th of November. Again, they are condemned as traitors, not as heretics. The crown and state are very much against people supporting Catholic plots, for example. But there is also a sense that you can be a recusant and you can privately worship, but you can't support foreign powers against the monarch. And that is something that, with the break from Rome, becomes considerably more part of what's going on. Most of Elizabeth's reign is very much religious treasons coming to the fore. So the document that you've got, so this is from the Gunpowder Plot. Do you want to talk us through what this is? Yes, this is the Mount Eagle letter.

Oh yeah, we love the Mount Eagle letter, don't we? We do, because we did an episode on Gunpowder Plot. So tell us about the Mount Eagle letter, for those people who've been foolish enough not to listen to air. Well they can listen to it now, have an interest in it and then rush off and listen to the They'll have a sneak preview now from Ewan. And they can come and see it in the exhibition because it's going to be

out on display as well. So this is a letter that is essentially brought, it's delivered to Mount Eagle a few days before the gunpowder plot is about to take place. And it essentially warns him to not go to Parliament, to go to his country estate. And it says, essentially, this is not a joke.

Don't go to Parliament because bad things will happen. This is not a drill. They will receive such a blow. Is that the one? The Parliament will receive a terrible blow. Yeah. Yeah. And as a consequence of this, they go investigating and they find eventually the gunpowder.

They don't find it the first time. They think that Guy Fawkes is a servant. But on going back again, they find the gunpowder. And it's interesting, the gunpowder plot, in terms of thinking about this move from crown to state. Because on one hand are they're targeting the king but also the king in parliament and that institutional damage that would have happened had it gone ahead but it but it's also targeting the protestant faith and that's why it becomes the emblem of british protestantism isn't it for you know i mean right the way into the 20th century

i guess that's faded now but that's why it is the absolute arc gunpowder treason and plot yeah yeah definitely and one of the interesting things that people might not know about the gunpowder plot is that actually there's legislation put in place afterwards to make um the 5th of november a public celebration a public thanksgiving and that is actually brought into legislation directly. And we have the details of that. And it makes it a national day of Thanksgiving. So I think we've reached the end, haven't we, Tom?

Well, it's the perfect end because your exhibition, as we said, is opening on the 5th of November. Treason, people, power and plot. So before we just completely sign off, Ewan, you can save one traitor from this table and you can definitively condemn one. Who are they?

That is a very good question. I think I would have to save Richard Roos. The poison, the porridge man. Because I think it's a horrible, if it is a joke think it's a horrible, it is a joke, it's a horrible joke gone wrong. But ultimately, he's a man caught up in the middle of much, much broader political concerns. Okay, and who will you condemn?

Somebody has to go. Somebody has to go. I think if you're squeamish, you'd go for Richard III, wouldn't you? Because he's already dead. Richard III has a lot of supporters, and I'm not going to condemn you'll get just endless grief on twitter if you condemn richard i am going to say and steve coogan like a film about you i am going to say guy thorks controversially because i think he's targeting it's such a wide

it's such a wide attack on the institutions and it it does make that change between from count from crown to state so you could have gone off table and chosen thomas moore you didn't that's fine no i don't think i think the fifth of guy forks is the perfect choice because fifth of november yeah emblematic of gunpowder treason and plot and that is the date on which um this fantastic exhibition at the National Archives is opening. Tom, let me just reiterate. What? There are amazing documents.

Yes. This is people's once-in-a-lifetime opportunity. Once-in-a-lifetime chance, yes. To see them together. Well, the Amberlynn document, I mean, fantastic. And do they have to book? Do they have to pay money? They don't have to book.

No. No. Neither of those things. No, absolutely not. And if you simply can't have enough of treason, there is also a fantastic book that goes with it, History of Treason, the bloody history of Britain through the stories of its most notorious traitors. And Dominic, we have more notorious traitors to come, don't we? We love traitors. This is only the first part of a two-part special. If you like us talking about parchments and traitors, you're absolutely in luck because we were back next time with more

of this kind of stuff but not just parchment because we will be moving into the uh the 19th and the 20th the 21st century traitors so ewan thank you so much thank you congratulations on this amazing exhibition to our listeners we'll see you next time in the meantime hopefully you've been to the national archives to see the exhibition for yourselves and you'll report the book so you'll be better informed than we are but either way we will see you next time goodbye bye thanks for listening to the rest is history for bonus episodes early access ad free listening Early access, ad-free listening and access to our chat community. Please sign up at restishistorypod.com. That's restishistorypod.com. I'm Marina Hyde.

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