The Rest Is History - 254. The World Cup: The Falklands, despots, and corruption

Episode Date: November 16, 2022

In their last episode on the World Cup, Tom and Dominic are joined by the face of football, Gary Lineker. They discuss England playing Argentina in the 1986 World Cup in the wake of the Falklands War, the globalisation of the competition that began with USA 1994, and the corruption that surrounds the upcoming tournament in Qatar. Join The Rest Is History Club (www.restishistorypod.com) for ad-free listening to the full archive, weekly bonus episodes, live streamed shows and access to an exclusive chatroom community. *The Rest Is History Live Tour 2023*: Tom and Dominic are back on tour this autumn! See them live in London, New Zealand, and Australia! Buy your tickets here: restishistorypod.com Twitter:  @TheRestHistory @holland_tom @dcsandbrook Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Thank you for listening to The Rest Is History. For weekly bonus episodes, ad-free listening, early access to series, and membership of our much-loved chat community, go to therestishistory.com and join the 1970s and 1980s, I adored the World Cup. I zealously collected the Panini stickers, painstakingly circled the fixtures in my parents' copy of the Radio Times, and watched goggle-eyed as Zico, Socrates and Maradona pirouetted across our television screen. Sadly, today it is simply impossible to look forward to Brazil's carnival of football with the same innocent enthusiasm. The greatest sporting exhibition on the planet has become a bloated monstrosity. Far from embodying the Corinthian virtues of athletic excellence and fair play,

the World Cup has become synonymous with corporate greed, institutional corruption, and the widening gulf between the international super-rich and the downtrodden masses. That, Dominic Sandbrook, was a top historian harrumphing in the Daily Mail before the World Cup in Brazil in 2014. And the top historian was, of course, yourself. It was. Beautiful prose, Tom. Not just powerful, but beautifully written, I think. Very, very thought-provoking. Our guest is laughing scornfully, I will say. Dominic, we finished our sweep through the World Cup in in our last episode in argentina in 1978

and you could say that that there was a lot of corporate greed there there was certainly quite a lot of institutional corruption and um and and you know they the argentine government were busing shanty people out to shanty towns but we know where they weren't playing fixtures so plus a change basically isn't it between brazil and qatar today i mean absolutely right anything changed much when you when you look at the two episodes we have already done um it's obvious that the world cup has been associated from the very beginning with state building with nationalism with money obviously because football has always been associated with money um and with politics so when people, let's keep politics out of sports,

politics has never been out of the World Cup. But I think it's certainly true, I would say, that in the last, let's say, 30 years or so, the sort of corporate stranglehold over the World Cup has been stronger and stronger. The sense of it being this sort of, there was a slight hint of innocence, wasn't there, about those 1930s?

Yeah, a bit. Certainly 1930, the very first one apart from Mussolini not the bits from Mussolini um but yeah it's a it's a really interesting question about how this this 1920s 1930s products the world cup um where it sees itself in the 21st century and is it just a vehicle for corporate investment and for dictators and so on but I think what you would also say is that it has grown in significance even greater than it was, say, in the 60s or 70s. And historians, I guess, in 100 years' time looking back at this period will see the World Cup as an absolutely central part of making sense of the geopolitics

of this period. And I think that when you're studying a kind of a major aspect of history, all the way through the episodes we've done, we've been hamstrung by our inability to actually have figures from the period of history that we're discussing actually on the show. So when we did the- Pele didn't join us, sadly. Well, but when we did the Battle of Trafalgar, we didn't have Nelson. We did the conquest of Alexander. He couldn't turn up. But for this, we're going into the 80s, the 90s, the 21st century World Cup. We have a top figure from history on our show, do we not?

We do indeed. So for our American Australian listeners, people who are not interested in football, he'll take a tiny bit of introduction. All our British listeners and our European listeners will know him immediately. He was born in 1960. He's from Leicester. He's the face of crisps, or as Americans would say, chips. So that will give his identity away straight away. He was the top scorer in the 1986 World Cup, won the Golden Boot. He went on to captain his country, to captain England.

And ever since retiring, he has been really the media face of football, not just in England, I think, but one of the absolutely central sort of media faces of football around the world. And it is, of course, Gary Lineker. Gary, welcome to the podcast. Thank you. Great to be on. So we're talking about you as a historical figure. That's how old I am now. In the most flattering sense. In the most flattering way. Exactly. Just as we would talk about Alexander the Great or Nelson, as Tom says.

So you're born in 1960 in Leicester. You're from a family of greengrocers, I think. Is that right? Yeah, my dad was a market trader, sold fruit. So do you remember? So you're too young to remember watching England in 1966, I suppose. Sadly, yes. 1970?

70 was my first World Cup. I remember that, which was obviously in Mexico. And it was a very colourful my first World Cup. I remember that, which was obviously in Mexico. And it was a very colourful and great World Cup. And one of my first ever memories was England probably playing Brazil in a group stage. And it was the game where Banks pulled off the remarkable save from Pelé's header. He scooped it over the bar. And then latterly in the tournament, which was England got to the quarterfinals

and played against West Germany, as it was then, of course. And England would tow up. Now, my dad, who I said was a fruiture, a market trader, worked really hard all hours. But they'd take a day off sometimes and he'd have a every week they would have a card game at the house and my mum kind of hosted and did a bit and they gave her a little few quid every now and again for that and there was like six seven blokes in

the house every monday and they'd go all night all night until they next morning they go to work or whatever and on this and it never stopped for anything but this one night they did stop to watch England play against Germany and we were two up and we're going to thought we're going to win and then Germany came back and won in extra time three two and I was crying and and I remember my dad and amongst others, Engelbert Humperdinck was one of the players playing cards in my house. Engelbert Humperdinck? Yeah, he used to come around.

I know it's bizarre. Jerry Dorsey, as he was known back then, but Engel, as he was known to everyone in our house. So he came around and then I was in tears, floods of tears with England losing because I was only, what, nine years old and they just carried, they just went, right, let's get back and play cards then. And they started and carried on all night. I think it didn't happen. Did Engelbert give a song to cheer you up?

I don't think he probably did. Oh, that's disappointing. Wow. That was unexpected. Yes. So we've done 1978. So the next World Cup uh world cup is in spain in 1982 and obviously geopolitics are a massive factor in that for britain and for argentina because dominic is what's the state

of play in the falklands as the world cup goes on clans uh there was some talk before the tournament um of should the brit British teams pull out? So that's England, Scotland and Northern Ireland. Should Argentina pull out because they're fighting this war? Didn't Jimmy Greaves say that they should have a home nations tournament and the money should go to servicemen? Jimmy Greaves, so for those people who don't know, who was a former striker, brilliant striker,

but had become a pundit in the 1980s. He was no stranger to outlandish suggestions on TV, but they didn't pull out obviously. And the, and the war ended, I think the day after the tournament started. Um, the other thing is that the draw had,

I, they had one of those incredibly complicated draws that they had at times. It was little boys, wasn't it? With sort of, but they also, they had a series of groups. So you were in one group, then you were in another group. Yeah. There was a double With little boys, wasn't it? But they also had a series of groups. So you were in one group, then you were in another group.

Yeah, there was a double group stage then, wasn't there? Going all the way down the tournament because England got to the second group stage and then they didn't lose, but they also didn't score. Didn't score, yeah. And it was kind of a bizarre concept that going from one group stage and then into another group stage to get the two

finalists. But what that meant was we weren't we we we didn't play argentina that would be there was there was it would be very unlikely that we would was that gerrymandered i don't think so i don't i don't think it was true i mean i think the draws there's often been suggestions about draws being gerrymandered to favor the hosts but i don't't think this one was. I might be wrong. I mean, there's always conspiracy theories about all World Cup draws. They are. The hot balls in the pot. Are they hot balls, Gary?

Well, not from my experience. They're all pretty cold. Right. That's good to know. I've done the odd draw in my time. So, Gary, you had started as a professional footballer by 1982, hadn't you? Playing for Leicester.

Yeah, I was playing for Leicester. I was kind of a slow developer. I didn't break into the England team until I was in my mid-20s, 24, 25. Yeah, 84 you started playing for England. 84 was, yeah, my debut, which I came on at Hampden Park against Scotland. Came on for Glenn Hoddle in the last 10 minutes. And then I didn't really play again until probably 85, really and then I started scoring and then the world cup so as a player I mean for those people many many listeners who don't know much about football and don't know don't probably are not

massively invested in football how much does the world cup loom for you genuinely as a professional when it has is it the be all and end all is it this dream or is it just another no no it's no it's huge it's it's it's the biggest stage you can possibly play on as a footballer um you could argue whether it's the best competition um to play now because the champions league is so incredibly strong and club football often they're probably better sides overall but for a player for an individual it's it's it's the pinnacle to represent first your country and then secondly your country at a world cup and it it really is um incredibly special and it is all or also to this day i think players even you know with the money they earn it doesn't matter representing your country um genuinely does make you feel

incredibly proud so just to jump in that thing about representing your country genuinely does make you feel incredibly proud. So just to jump in, that thing about representing your country, so the thing that often annoys fans is they'll see of a club team, is they'll say the player will kiss the badge, give everything for their Huddersfield town or whatever, and then what do you know, a week later he's moved to Luton and he's kissing that badge too. So there's a degree of, you could say there's a degree of cynicism.

But playing for your country, when you're singing the anthem, all that stuff, I mean, does it really, are people cynical about that behind the scenes? I don't think so. I don't think, sometimes you'll get, you know, when the team's not playing very well, and particularly in a tournament like that, you'll often get the mud thrown at you for not trying

and they're not trying, they're not competing hard enough and it's never that. Sometimes it can be that you care too much and the pressure becomes too much for some players. But generally, every player gives everything to be in this tournament and it's one of those, particularly the World Cup we've got coming up now is that we're playing right up to the World Cup. So loads of players are getting injured last minute and missing out, which is a real shame.

So, yes, it's it. I mean, it sounds a bit pathetic, but, you know, to say that it's so important, but it genuinely, genuinely does matter. And it's it's. I do think also part of that is that it is this kind of regular every four years and each World Cup is remembered and commemorated. So you know that if you pull in a brilliant performance, you will be a part of this folklore. You'll become part of it. It's really the best opportunity you have to become internationally significant? Absolutely. I mean, take my own personal situation. When I went, my first World Cup that I played

in was 86 in Mexico. And that transformed my life. You know, I went into it as a player that was just breaking through, had a couple of good seasons, you know, won

the Golden Boot in England for Leicester and then Everton. And then I went to the World Cup and I was known back in England, you know, but then I played in the World Cup and I finished top score in the competition, won the Golden Boot and life changed. Suddenly I was on a plane, I was on my way to Barcelona to sign and play for them for three years. So it is a thing that can launch your career in many ways,

and it certainly did mine. Just that thing about going to Mexico. I mean, for people of certainly my age and Tom's age, Mexico feels like the sort of the canonical place where you have to have World Cups because 1970 was in Mexico, the Pele World Cup, then the Maradona and Lineker World Cup. I think just the Maradona and Lineker World Cup in 1986. I think just the Maradona World Cup.

Well, it's good to butter up the guests, isn't it, Tom? Absolutely. So Mexico, but somebody from, as you say, from Leicester, the market trading background, all that stuff, to go to Mexico, which basically British people didn't go to, I mean, were you just so much in the football bubble that you didn't kind of notice? Or was it as mad and outlandish as it kind of sounds? It was really, but at the time, as you quite rightly say,

you are in a bubble. And we did go there the year before to compete in a little mini tournament just to try and get a feel acclimatize, that sort of thing. And obviously, you know, Mexico at that stage, I mean, I've watched these series of narcos, you know, and it's like, I had no idea that was going on, that kind of stuff. You know, you have mass killings and the drug wars and the cartels and all this stuff was in its height at that particular point.

And I used to wonder, I remember when we were there, I wondered why we had this amazing kind of security details with outriding bikes and massive guns driving around with us everywhere we went. When I saw that series, it made sense. Well, because I guess the world then was less globalised, so it was much less connected. Countries like Mexico, if you're European, were more foreign, I guess. Yeah so it was much less connected it countries like mexico if you're european were more foreign i guess yeah it was it um i remember though it was i mean it was a beautiful place um

and we had to climatize and it's because of a lot of mexico's quite high like altitude mexico city for example where we ended up playing last 16 in the quarterfinal. Prior to that, though, we had to play in Monterey, which was a lot lower, but it was incredibly hot. We played three games there in the daytime. I think two of the games were at midday and one at four o'clock, or it might have been the other way around. But we were playing in 40-odd degrees centigrade. And it was, you know, nowadays they would, I don't know whether they'd even allow that.

It'd be too dangerous but um it was and we so we had to acclimatize and we went we went before we went to colorado for altitude training etc but we also had to train for the extreme heat and i remember we used to bobby robson decided that we should all train in a steam room so we were doing all press ups and jump squats and all these things in a steam room to get used to playing in that heat. And you were only allowed one call a week home. Is that true? Well, yeah, obviously no mobile phones back then. And, you know, sometimes we discuss the boredom of players pre-World Cup

when you spend a few weeks together before the actual thing starts. So you've got to keep yourself entertained. But yeah, there were no mobile phones, no computer games, no laptops, no any, you know, there's very little to do. So you had to make a bit of your own entertainment and also getting any kind of phone.

We were allowed one phone call home a week. And the interesting thing was just before the World Cup, because I'd done really well with Everton, there was a little bit of interest from Barcelona. And I had a conversation with my agent before I went. And I said, right, I'm going to the World Cup. I don't want any distraction. He went, that's absolutely right.

Totally understand. So we get through to the quarterfinal. We beat Paraguay and I'd scored three against Poland. I scored two against Paraguay. And then we now got to play against Argentina in the quarterfinals. And we're all sitting in the room and someone comes in and says, there's a phone call for you at reception. And I was like, oh my God, a phone call.

It's incredible. So I go there and I went, hello. He said, it was my agent, John Holmes. It still looks after me to this day so he said um he said i know we had an agreement that i wouldn't bother you during the world cup he said but situation has arisen and i think it's only right that i call you about it he said i've had barcelona on the phone because i'd obviously just scored a few goals they're quite pretty quiet in the start of the tournament when I was hopeless.

So he said, they've come on and they've said, we want Gary, he's got to sign and he's got to agree to sign now, otherwise it's off. He said, so I felt like I had to tell you. I said, well, I said, I can't do that now. Imagine if I signed for Barcelona during the World Cup, I'd be hung drawn and quartered when I get home.

I said, if they want me now, they'll want me at the end of the tournament. So, and he went, that's absolutely the answer I needed to hear, but I wanted to tell you. So yeah, that was my one phone call, which is quite remarkable. I did eventually go to Barcelona. And that's just before the game against Argentina.

A couple of days before, yeah. So the famous quarterfinal against Argentina, how much were you and the team aware of the context that was provided both by footballing history and by political history? We were made very aware because every single press conference, every single interview that we were doing, we were asked about the Falklands conflict. Will that affect the game?

Does it make it more important? And everybody, everybody was just trying to play it down. And so were the Argentinians as well. I saw Maradona interviewed before the game. But I think it added to it. And I honestly think, and I was having this conversation with a few friends the other day, I honestly think that that game, the quarterfinal against Argentina, is the most, not necessarily the best, but certainly, I think,

the most famous game in the history of football. I mean, people will come and throw other things at me. And I think it was a World Cup quarterfinal. It was just a few years after the war in the Falklands you got the greatest goal probably ever scored yeah and also the most infamous goal ever so just for people who don't know anything about football just explain why it's so famous and and why those two goals are so significant well it was two of the you of the big powers in world football. It was post the war and the game featured Diego Armando Maradona, who was the best footballer on earth by quite some distance at the time. And it was goalless in the first half, wasn't a very good game. And then the second half, the ball gets flicked back by Steve Hodge, who claims to this day that it was a deliberate back pass, but I don't know how, I'm not sure. And Diego Maradona comes up, goes as low as he's going to head it,

and then punches it into the net. Now, the referee didn't see it. The linesman, I think, did, but didn't have the nerve to give it. He's subsequently written a book where he did say he thought he handballed it, but he didn't have the nerve to give the decision. And they led 1-0. And then just a few minutes later, Maradona picks the ball up on the halfway

line, does a wriggle, does a turn, does a twist, beats one, beats two, beats three, beats four, beats five, goes around Peter Shilton and knocks it in the back of the net on a pitch that was like a cabbage patch. So how he did that was, it would justify belief. I've said this many times, but it's the one time in my life

where I thought I should probably applaud a goal. I didn't because I'd be given hell at home. And after that, we came back, John Barnes came on, whipped the ball across. I got the goal that no one remembers in that game. Everybody remembers that goal. Yeah, we all remember that. We all remember that. In England they might remember.

And then just a couple of minutes before the end of the game, Barnes again gets down the left, crosses the ball in and I think I'm going to score. I head it and from somewhere, I think it was a lot of good chair, the left back for Argentina jumps on, hits the back of his head and goes out.

And we lost the game. But to have a game that was, A, post a war between two countries, B, in a World Cup and a knockout game in a quarterfinal, to have the best goal ever scored and probably the most impudent goal ever scored, I think it's the most famous game ever. The hand of God. It was brilliant. He not only said that, he said it was a little bit

the head of Maradona and a little bit the hand of God. I mean, what a brilliant line to think of at the end of that. And Maradona, I mean, so I would guess even our listeners who despise football will definitely have heard of Maradona.

I mean, Maradona is one of the, probably the two most famous footballers who ever lived with Pele. And I guess you've met him a lot, haven't you? Because you've interviewed him. You've been to, I think you've been've met him a lot, haven't you? Because you've interviewed him. I think you've been to Argentina to meet him.

I did a documentary with him for two or three days in his company. And his life was just extraordinary. I mean, he obviously had his issues with addiction. And we lost him just a couple of years ago, sadly. But he was an amazing individual, hugely charismatic and unbelievably talented. Certainly for your American, he's kind of like the Michael Jordan of football in many ways.

But kind of more than that, because to Argentinians, I get the sense that, so he's from the streets. He was that urchin. So he's the sort of the representative he was five foot four but also he'd beaten the anglo-saxon pirates that argentina had always blamed you know going back to the 19th century they'd sort of resented britain and he had he hadn't just beat us with a good goal but he'd outsmarted us with a yeah a bad goal as a way yeah he gets i think that in in Argentina he gets as much credit

for punching the ball in the net because they think that was the ultimate in trickery and skullduggery and I think they

they love that aspect of it whereas we here we wouldn't even I wouldn't even think to have done that I mean I could have done that

with that cross at the end to be perfectly honest if I'd known the fellow was coming in I could have punched it in. But it wouldn't cross my mind to do it. We're just too sporting, aren't we, Gary? That's the trouble.

Well, it's the Corinthian spirit, Dominic, that you were talking about. Corinthian spirit never gets you anywhere, does it? Yeah, so you've got knocked out. Exactly. But Maradona also hugely, hugely popular in Naples. He plays in Naples. Oh, well, he played for Naples. He played for Napoli and they won Serie A for the first time ever in their history.

So there's a shrine to him. I saw a shrine. They've got one of his hairs. Well, when I spent the two or three days with him in Buenos Aires, I went to his home. We had a barbie. And then we went to watch a game. We went to watch Boca Juniors play at the Bombonera. And it was an extraordinary experience though

it was it was like you know when you you know watch a film you know life of brian for example when they're all following the messiah it was it was like it was like that people came from everywhere and treated him like this god and they're crying at his feet and i'm thinking how can you live like this every day everywhere he goes like, and we went up and he has his own box at the Bombonera where Bocca Juniors play, which is his team. And we go up there and as soon as he stands on it, like a balcony, like a kind of like Caesar looking at his bed and,

and the whole crowd starts singing and jumping and, and he's leaning over the balcony. He's leaning over so much that his daughter, I remember, was holding him to try to make sure they didn't fall off the edge of the balcony. I mean, he was the most spectacular. And it was mad, really, because I played in an era of, you know, with wonderful players, like Zico and people like Platini.

But this fellow was, these fellows were so good, but he was on a completely different level again. He was that good. So he, the next World Cup is 1990 and that's in Italy. So Maradona, again, to an extent is, you know, he's a key figure, isn't he? He's a key figure. But this is a time when the England team is notorious

for being, for hooliganism, troubles with hooliganism, endless calls to bring back the Birch from outraged Tory MPs and so on. And so you, you get kind of get penned in Sardinia, don't you? The, the, the group. We did. That's where the draw put us. I don't know whether it was deliberate to try and stick us on a little island to keep our supporters away. But I mean, obviously, my whole career was played constantly with the backdrop of hooliganism of our England fans,

that some of them, not all of them, obviously, in a small percentage, but would go follow the England team anywhere to try and have a fight and cause trouble. And it was pretty grim. You know, there were various trips abroad where I'd witnessed it myself. And it was, you know, I just never really could get my head around it. But the England team in that tournament, you won the good, what was it, the good behaviour award or whatever,

you got a gold star for being the best behaved or something. Yeah, amazing, yeah. That was a small conversation. the good behavior award or whatever you got a gold star for being the best behaved or something. Yeah. Amazing. Yeah. That was a small conversation, but I guess, so the 1990 world cup is the middle-class world cup. Having talked about the hooliganism and it's, it's,

it's the one where middle-class people start following it. Opera, Pavarotti, all that kind of stuff. In the UK. I think certainly in England, I think it was, it was also almost a watershed moment in many ways. I think it, things that kind of stuff. In the UK, I think, certainly in England, I think it was almost a watershed moment in many ways.

I think things changed quite a lot. We'd also had Hillsborough, we'd had Heysel in recent times, you know, two terrible tragedies within stadiums. So we were coming also, England clubs were banned from Europe because of what happened at Heysel. So we came from a period, really, of the absolute doldrums for football. It was, you know, hooliganism was rife. Spectators were down.

There weren't that many people going to watch football. Stadia were kind of falling to pieces. And then suddenly we had 1990 and people fell in love with football again because we went long into the tournament we had an amazing moment plat scoring um incredible volley in the 120th minute which is the last minute of extra time um to send us through against Belgium then we played Cameroon I got a couple of penalties and we sneaked through in that one then we played Germany and we were unlucky and we ended up losing on a penalty shootout. But it was like people fell in love with football again.

It wasn't just the working class. All of a sudden, you know, we get mobbed in the streets when we came home. And Gazza's tears. Women and young people, Gazza's tears. Gazza's tears. Gazza was obviously given a yellow card. He seconded the tournament in the semi-final against Germany,

which meant that he would miss the final should we make the final, which obviously we didn't because we lost in the penalty shootout. And there was a moment where I looked at the bench and it became the question I was most asked. You know, what were you saying? And I just kind of gave a look with my eye to Bobby Robson and said, have a word with him. Basically keep an eye on him because Gazza was starting to cry

because he knew he wouldn't play in the final if we made it. But he actually rallied and did really well in extra time. So, Gary, that's against Germany. In our last episode, we were talking about the shadow of the Second World War. So when Germany won in 1954 against Hungary, all the press coverage in Britain and France and elsewhere

was about this was the resurgence of the Nazis. Well, Hungary were top in that final. They were indeed. In 1974, also Germany behind against the Dutch. They beat the Dutch. Again, it's the shadow of the war hangs very heavy, particularly for some Dutch players who'd lost family in the war. And then in 90, I mean, certainly from my perspective,

having watched it, I remember the huge sort of upsurge of anti-German sentiment in England among people in my generation who had never talked about it before who felt you know the thought that the Germans of all people had beaten us on penalties well we do we do get we do get a little bit obsessed with the Germans in this. But did you feel that at all as players? Let me put it this way. The night before the World Cup semi-final, England against Germany, we had a team meeting. Bobby Robson called a team meeting and it was just before the other

semi-final, which was taking place the night before our game, which was Italy against Maradona's Argentina in Naples, where Maradona ends up scoring a penalty in the shootout and they knock the Italians out in his hometown. Not quite his hometown, but you know what I mean. But we had this team meeting. Now during, as I said earlier, often in tournaments, there's not a lot going on.

It's quite dull. So we try and entertain ourselves. For example, I always used to run a book, like a bookmaker, there's not a lot going on it's quite dull so we try and entertain ourselves um for example i was i always used to run a book like a bookmaker and we did that all the players had bets on the football matches we'd have race nights where our physio used to bring in tapes of race meetings and i knew how to run a book because i did it at leicester race course when i was about 16 17 for a couple of years for a bookie so So I knew how to do that. And my roommate was Peter Shilton. So he helped me do it.

And we were called Honest Links and Shilts. And we do it all this betting. And on the night before the England-Germany game, we had this meeting. Bobby Robson called it. He was a little bit late as he often was, but he always used to have one of those clipboard, big paper clipboards.

And before he came, i got the big marker pen and i wrote on it even money he mentions the war so and then i turned then i turned the page back over about the clip so and then bobby robson eventually comes in oh sorry i'm late lads and then he stood at the front and his first words were we beat them in the war and the place was in uproar everyone's clapping he's going what what's going on what's going on and someone said look at the clipboard so he said turn it over he turned over the page and he went linica you bastard so there were some people in your team who are who were very patriotic i mean most famous example i think we're all patriotic. We show it in

different ways. Terry Butcher, who literally bled for his country, didn't he? Yeah, I remember playing Yugoslavia in one game. Terry Butcher was

this, I mean, he's about six foot four, Terry. He's huge, big central defender, frightening bloke. And I remember we played Yugoslavia, we

had to get at least a point and we went out, it was a qualifier for the Euros or I think and so we were in the tunnel before the game and in in the middle between the two teams they had this like wire mesh kind of fence bizarre thing and um I'll never forget that Terry Votche went over it and he shook it it was like come on cage tiger and he's like, you could see them shrink on the other side

of the terrifying movie. But yeah, obviously fiercely patriotic, but do you really think in 1990, young men going out to play in a World Cup were actually bothered

about what had happened previously in the war? Although the hooligans were, right? Because the hooligans still sing. Or do you think it's just a performance?

I think it's a performance,? I think it's a performance, but I think it, you know, fans do sing songs to this day about various things that they shouldn't be singing about really. So the final is West Germany. And it's the last time that it's West Germany rather than Germany. Because of course the Berlin Wall had come down the year before against

Argentina. They can't both lose. Who do you want to win? That's a really good question. I actually went to that final to receive the aforementioned remarkably wonderful FIFA Fair Play Award, which I

received with Bobby Robson. So I went to that game. It was the most dire game. But in the end, Germany went through a penalty from Andy Bramer, who took a penalty in the shootout against England with one foot, I think the left, and then in the final

took it with his other foot which for a, you know it's quite an imaginable thing to do but they won by one, yeah I didn't really care who won to be honest. Right Okay, I think we should take a break here and when we come back perhaps we could look at some of the uh the kind of the broad themes over the past

30 years in the world cup so increasing globalization uh sinister despots taking over all that kind of stuff so uh we will be back with um the most recent decades of the world cup i'm marina hyde And I'm Richard Osman. And together we host The Rest Is Entertainment. It's your weekly fix of entertainment news, reviews, splash of showbiz gossip. And on our Q&A, we pull back the curtain on entertainment and we tell you how it all works.

We have just launched our Members Club. If you want ad-free listening, bonus episodes and early access to live tickets, head to therestisentertainment.com. That's therestis rest is entertainment.com that's the rest is entertainment.com welcome back to the rest is history with our guest gary lineker gary um tom kicked off the very first episode with a brilliantly moving reading from a very popular newspaper by me about the World Cup and corruption and just looking very very broadly at the last few decades before we get into the individual stories do you think the World Cup has sold its soul as it were? Well we've had enormous corruption issues I think the

tournament itself is still magical I think it's the greatest sporting event of all, personally, but I'm slightly biased, obviously, as a football man. But yes, of course, it's incredibly global these days, incredibly powerful corporate as well, and there's a massive amount of money. Now, where there's a massive amount of money, there's often corruption. Where there's money, there's whatever it is um and so yes we've had that to a great degree um much to the detriment of football my favorite um corrupt figure was chuck blazer oh what he's remarkable bloke who who was the american fifa representative wasn't he? He was about 200 stone.

I think he ended up getting paid a couple of apartments in New York where he would be in one. But I think it was all paid for by FIFA and stuff. I think he had an apartment. He had a separate apartment for his cats. That's very kind of Roman Emperor, isn't it? It really is. I went to the notorious 2010, what they call the bidding finale in Switzerland when they decided to go with Russia and Qatar as the two bids.

I wasn't part of the England bid team. I'd been left out of that. But somebody got wind of the fact that I knew Michel Platini and I played golf with him and thought it might be a good idea if I flew out the night before and came and had a chat with one or two of the committee members of FIFA. I said, what are your country calls? So I went there, but there was already like Prince William

and David Cameron and David Beckham and all these people. And it was a strange thing. All these committee members were all around this hotel room. You know, it was Chuck Blazer, all these dreadful, some of them were. And we were sat there and I was thinking, where are all the people from the other bidding countries there's no one else here and i we had a burger i sat down with david beckham afterwards as you do and i said to him i said this is a bit odd isn't it there's only us here do you not think this is like already been done and decided um and and

so it proved because england didn't even get past the first vote and the way they do it and then it ended up being russia which you know russia had a had a strong bid but and then the remarkable thing came out the hat for the for the 2022 world cup which is where we are now of the name qatar and it was like what and? And that's when, you know, you kind of absolutely knew that there was corruption. So you went, when you were involved in the media, you went to the United States in 94, is that right? I didn't actually.

I was playing in Japan at the time, at the end of career. And I did a bit of punditry for two weeks but it was from London and all right yeah so they were we did do it around that world cup but I wasn't there so that's the first world cup really where they're clearly trying to kind of evangelize yeah they're trying to take it to somewhere where I mean do you think that's what they should be doing spreading the gospel of football or do you think they should be it should be happening in places where people actually care about football um it's a good question i mean i mean they've got it again in the next world cup sharing it with mexico and canada but no i have no problem with it it going around the world america's a strange one you know people say that you know they're not interested

and it's not there it's obviously not in their top four sports. So I didn't feel like it was... If I was a player, it wouldn't be the one where I would have wanted to go at that particular point to play, but I'd just kind of finished. So, yeah, whilst it's good that it's global, and I agree with that, I think it's important to be in countries really that do least like football. Well, I mean, there's not being interested in football. And then there's being so obsessed by football that when one of your players scores an own goal, you shoot him. So the most notorious episode in the 94 World Cup in America is when Colombia lose to the United States and get knocked out.

And Andres Escobar scores, he scores an own goal and he gets shot by, what is it, the chauffeur of two meddling gangsters, I think. Yeah. And that's... It's indescribable, isn't it? Yeah. Because the reason why the World Cup matters is that passions are so high. But that must, does that episode kind of hang as a warning to everyone in world football as to just how far it could go?

Well, it shouldn't, obviously. I mean, to do something like that to one of your players for just basically making a mistake. I mean, it's not like he deliberately scored an own goal or anything like that um to one of your players for just basically making a mistake i mean it's not like he deliberately scored an own goal or anything like that but no i mean that's i mean it's a staggering story that that people i mean yes we all care and we get passionate and we want our country to do well in in in sport but in and in football for me in particular but it's just unimaginable that it could lead to something like that a terrible thing he said he this was before he said in football unlike bullfighting there is no death in football no one dies no one gets killed he said that i haven't seen terrible yeah terrible thing to have said but i suppose it's an example isn't it of how

football there's always a slight sense that football is that people try to create the football is just entertainment and escapism from the world i mean obviously that's why so many of us love football because fat as fans but you can't ever escape it i mean so to go back to your story about that meeting in south africa the 2018 world cup was awarded to russia r, yeah. And by the time, in the intervening period, Russia had taken Crimea and had become involved in eastern Ukraine. And the World Cup happens in Russia. I mean, you went to Russia, didn't you? You went to the Kremlin and did the draw.

I did the draw for FIFA at that stage, which was in the Kremlin. It's funny, I was asked to meet Putin a couple of times and refused because of obviously what was going on. And I think it was quite a good decision now. I bet you're glad there's no photos. Yeah, and it was amazing to get behind the scenes in the Kremlin. I was like in a solid gold dressing room. What happens if I press this red button?

Whoops. I know, and it was funny because we had they had um i was hosting it and they had like um eight representatives of the countries that had won the world cup to actually pull the balls out the pot and we rehearsed for three days because it was incredibly complicated the draw because so you know this continent couldn't play against this continent you couldn't play there you had certain amounts um so we had three days rehearsals and when they said three days rehearsal i thought really is that necessary um but it was um and the draw went quite well and diego was maradona was doing the draw he didn't turn up for the

rehearsals he just came at the end because he's diego and um i remember he he drew the first one out and he picked out with his hand and i went, oh, the hand of God strikes again. And he laughed at that. And then it was funny because he came up to me after the draw and it went really well. It went pretty smoothly, thankfully. And he came up to me and he went, Gary, you gave me a big hug. Because obviously I knew because I filmed with him before.

And he said, Gary, he said, you're so good at this. He said, you were quite a good footballer, he said. He said, but if you were as good at football as you are at doing this, he said, you might have been nearly as good as me. Oh, my word. And I looked at him, what a lad. What a lad. But you didn't, so looking back at that now,

do you think the World Cup shouldn't have gone to Russia in 2018? I mean, Russia is a good footballing country and it's just, you know, now do you think the world cup shouldn't have gone to to russia in 2018 i mean i mean russia is a good footballing country and it's just you know and and and often you know but we hate their politics and hate their leadership and and and we obviously hate what's happened subsequently i mean it's i was more worried about the qatar one because that was um obviously bought um yeah um but the you know But the Russian one was a reasonable bid, but I thought our bid was much stronger.

And I'm sure there's been no evidence of corruption and particularly on the Russian one. I mean, basically everybody does bribes in a World Cup bid. It's changed a little bit now.

Well, you know, those cats don't get housed. Well, that's it. You can't do that. I know. So, I mean, but no, I don't think, I mean, the World Cup actually in Russia was really good. And the place was sanitized and it was, you know, everything was, everyone was looked after properly.

But for the people of Russia, I would say, yes, it was nice, great for them to have the world cup and that they really enjoyed it politically though i mean there are so many instances in in the history of of the world cup where you could go politically we shouldn't really have had it there you know you talked i remember you had the 1934 world cup with with um the backdrop of mussolini wanting it to support fascism and things like that. So, um,

we've had lots, 78 in Argentina, the military junta there was awful. Yeah. Cause I don't think that that's any, you know, better than, than Qatar getting it.

No, no, that's my point. It's, there's always something 2014 in Brazil, there are massive demonstrations on the streets for people saying, why are we investing in stadia when we should be investing in social care?

So they took to the streets. And so I'm kind of experienced with that. So it's, but at the same time, looking at Qatar, that's, you know, that whole thing was bought just just to play devil's advocate so they've the world cup's been held in japan and south korea yeah in um in 2002 so that was asia's first world cup and it was held in south africa so that was africa's world first world cup qatar is the first muslim country to host it. And so if it's a genuinely World Cup, isn't there a case for saying that it should go to regions of the world

that are not South America or Europe? No, I absolutely agree with that. I think, but, you know, you could have had something in a Middle Eastern World Cup. There's no, but I think the issue obviously is, you know, there's human rights issues. There's issues around every World Cup, wherever is we all we always have this build up but the at the minute there's this whole sport washing concept where you know people try and get respect because they kind of buy it through sport um you know we've we've had lots of meetings about this

going into this world cup and how we cover it and how we do this and that. And we had meetings with Amnesty International. And they said, sport washing works if you stop talking about the issues. So we'll keep raising the issues. But do I think it should be there? No. Did I think it should be in Russia? No. But, you know, how many countries in the world?

Obviously, there are different levels of human rights issues and whether you've invaded someone and stuff like this, but you'd probably limit yourself quite drastically if you wanted everyone to be holier than thou. But that's not saying that there are different levels of human rights issues. And what about this issue? So the first, you talked about 1970. So that's a World Cup of 16 teams, and it's about this issue so you know the first you talked about 1970 so that's a world cup of 16 teams and it's quite a simple structure the world cup's now 32 i think yeah

and it's going to be about 700 isn't it yeah it's ever more 48 the next one it's ever more kind of baroque and it kind of and there is a definite sense now maybe you some people listening to this will say oh these are just like old men moaning. But there's a definite sense, I would say, never, never, that the specialness has already rather been lost. There are a lot of matches that don't matter, that there are a lot of teams that turn up for two weeks and then go home, that it's bigger and bloated and therefore has lost some of the magic that it had.

I disagree to a degree on that. I don't think there are many meaningless matches because obviously you've got the group stage unless you win your first two games. I mean, you will get games in the last stage of that group that are fairly meaningless. I watched with Tom in 2006. We went to the pub and we watched Ukraine versus Saudi Arabia.

Yeah. I remember that. Yeah. Good for you. Nil-nil. Nil-nil, Gary. Nil-nil thriller.

I can assure you that was a meaningless match. No, you will get meaningless games and obviously occasionally, but once you reach the knockout stage of the last 16, then it's, it's, it's all wonderfully exciting though. I think the,

I've been in the football in some of the world that, you know, in the last world cup,'s it's it's all wonderfully exciting though i think the i've been the football in some of the world that you know in the last world cup we had some fantastic football matches some brilliant games um and you know football i think is better than it's the actual sport itself is better than it's ever been because of some good law changes and you can't just kick people everywhere now the playing surfaces beautiful, which make for better football. We've got some wonderfully gifted footballers right around the world. Politically, obviously there are issues, massive issues, which we've talked about.

But football-wise, I think it's a World Cup. So to give more people, more countries the chance to play in it, you can't imagine how massive that is for a small nation to be suddenly playing in the world cup i i read i was reading about the um south korea who when they helped stage the world semi-final they got to the semi-finals and the south korean president said of that that it was korea's happiest day since dan gunn who was the son of a bear and the creator of acupuncture, founded the country in 2333 BC. Great. Hang on a minute. Hang on a minute.

He was the son of a bear. Apparently, yes. That's amazing. We sometimes have facts on this podcast, Gary, that turn out to be quite true. Not necessarily true. That may well be one of them. But just to end, the justification for doing the World Cup on a history podcast is that it holds a mirror up to changing patterns in geopolitics. And I guess that one thing you could say about Qatar hosting it is that it is doing that. I mean, it is inconceivable that in, I don't know, 1990 or let alone kind of 1950, that Qatar would ever stage it.

And in a way, it's reflective of the kind of shifts in global power, global wealth, all kinds of things like that. I think it's a reflection of that, isn't it? There's no question about that. I mean, it wouldn't, as you say, 30, probably even 20 years ago, it wouldn't have been thought of. But 12 years ago, it was't have been thought of but it well 12 years ago it was decided it was going to be there

to the shock of the world but it is there and obviously it's a very very important part of the world now incredibly wealthy Qatari's own

well most of London don't they as well and they've got a lot of gas and they've got a lot of gas and so that's where it is because money talks doesn't it right and it always will so in other words 20 years time whether you like it or not people will be the world cup will be somewhere else the people are

i mean presumably a chinese world cup within the next 20 30 years that's the other question i want to just what is is that if it's a world cup two massive countries are missing from the World Cup, China and India. So I think India did qualify, didn't they, for one World Cup, and they weren't allowed to play barefoot, so they refused to turn up. Yeah, I think that's a slight myth, but they didn't turn up. I think that sounds a bit like a myth. They didn't turn up. It's like the son of a bear kind of myth, that one, isn't it?

So can it really be a World Cup without, say, China and India? Well, there's qualifying. So they go through that stage. So pretty much every country in the world takes part in the, pretty much, I think, in the qualifying. So they have been part of the World Cup process. I mean, China have played in World Cups, obviously. And, you know, it's not probably their

biggest sport, but it's growing. In India, it's starting to grow as well, to a degree. Yeah, so time will tell. But they're obviously countries that are not as interested in football as elsewhere. But it's probably the most global sport, certainly team sport, really. So Gary, this has been brilliant. It's strange to think that if your career turned out differently, we'd have been doing this podcast with Mark Haley. But thank heavens he left Mark Haley out and kept me in the side. So,

so we've just had to make do with you. I'm terribly sorry. How can I apologize? Before we let you go, it would be remiss not to ask you for a few special predictions for Restless History listeners. So first of all, the finalists. The finalists in this World Cup coming up?

Yeah. It's really open, this one. I think there's no obvious... It's also a World Cup like we've never had before. It's unique. It's in the middle of a domestic lead season, certainly in Europe and a lot of other countries. We've never had a Winter World Cup,

Northern Hemisphere Winter World Cup. So it's going to be difficult. And there's lots of players who are getting injured. I would have probably tipped France, but they've lost Kante, they've lost Varane, they've lost Pogba. Other countries have lost big players too. I suspect we might get a South American winner. It's been 20 years since we did,

since Brazil won in Japan-Korea. So, Argentina have not lost a game for around three and a half years. Brazil, always,

always strong. The European teams, England have a chance. We do have a chance. It's a little bit lighter than central defence. Germany always have a chance. It's a little bit lighter than central defence. Germany always have a chance because they're German.

But they've not really got a striker, but France have won it in the past. France could easily still win it or they could implode. Spain have got a chance, but they're a bit young and not great up front. So I actually, if I had to say, I'd probably go either Brazil or Argentina. And would you like to see Lionel Messi?

So Messi for those, I mean, surely everyone knows who Messi is. I would hope so. Certainly the most, arguably the most talented player who's ever lived. Yeah. I never thought I'd see a better player than Diego Maradona. I'm not saying Messi is a better player than Maradona, but I never thought anyone would compare. And they're so similar.

And if I had to choose, I'd probably give it Messi because of longevity of career. Obviously, Maradona had his issues which affected his career and Messi never has. If England don't win it or don't get to the final,

I would love to see Messi do it for Argentina. It's pretty much the only trophy he's not won. Yeah. And he's won this Copa America. He did that not 18 months ago, which was amazing for him because he'd lost in three, four major finals.

But he's an unbelievable player. For me, he's just joyous to watch. So the rest is football predictions yeah i'm useless at predicting anything no but i like the fact we've done we've done three episodes on the history of the world cup and we've ended up with predictions uh and now we can see whether they come true or not there you go so thank you so much for coming on. Thank you. Absolute pleasure. Thanks everyone for listening. And we have coming up 32 episodes, not about football, but about aspects of the history

of every single country that is playing. Every country in the World Cup, we do its history in the next 32 episodes, Gary. Hats off to you guys. One a day. One a day. I'll be listening. I'll be listening.

It'll give me a lot of good lines for my World Cup, hopefully, when I'm presenting. When we come back to you in 32 days' time and we say, Gary, tell us about the Costa Rican Civil War, you will be enormously well-informed. Do you not think I already know everything about that? Yeah.

Great. We should have had a talk about that. Don't test me. All right. Bye-bye, everybody. Bye-bye. Bye. Thanks for listening to The Rest Is History.

For bonus episodes, early access, ad-free listening, and access to our chat community, please sign up at restishistorypod.com. That's restishistorypod.com. I'm Marina Hyde. And I'm Richard Osman. And together we host The Rest Is Entertainment. It's your weekly fix of entertainment news, reviews, splash of showbiz gossip. And on our Q&A, we pull back the curtain on entertainment and we tell you how it all works. We have just launched our Members Club. If you want ad-free listening, bonus episodes and early access to live tickets, head to therestisentertainment.com. That's therestisentertainment.com.