The Rest Is History - 293: Lady Jane Grey: The Nine Days' Queen

Episode Date: January 9, 2023

Edward VI is dead - but who will succeed him on the throne?  In the first of two episodes, Tom and Dominic discuss the succession question that surrounded the reign of Edward VI, the sole male heir of Henry VIII - and how a 15-year-old Lady Jane Grey ended up Queen of England and Ireland. Tune in to hear about svengalis, the deeply embedded memory of Henry VIII, and why the people of Guildford are the true victims in this incredible story. *The Rest Is History Live Tour 2023*: Tom and Dominic are back on tour this autumn! See them live in London, New Zealand, and Australia! Buy your tickets here: restishistorypod.com Twitter:  @TheRestHistory @holland_tom @dcsandbrook Producer: Theo Young-Smith Executive Producers: Jack Davenport + Tony Pastor Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Thank you for listening to The Rest Is History. For weekly bonus episodes, ad-free listening, early access to series, and membership of our much-loved chat community, go to therestishistory.com and join the club. That is therestishistory.com. Good sirs, good ladies, many years of happy days before thee, and welcome unto The Rest Is History. And if you are wondering why I'm introducing this in a kind of cod Shakespearean style, it's because, Dominic Sandbrook, we're going to do a Tudor-themed show, aren't we? And this is the first one we've done, actually, since The Six Wives of Henry VIII, which we did a year ago. Seems kind of disgraceful. It's very unusual that British historians stay off the Tudors.

Yes, it is. Before we come to the theme of what we're talking about today, and of course you already know because I'm sure you'll have seen the title of this episode, but I want to kick off, Dominic, by asking you a question. And I want you to imagine that both of us have been taken back in a time machine to Tudor England. And due to a complicated degree of circumstances, which I won't go into, we've been presented to the privy council and the privy council have to decide which of us would make the best king right who do you think they would go for obviously i think they'd go for me i mean why do you think they go for you i mean beyond the fact that you enjoy attacking the french and all that kind of stuff but there's one fundamental reason why they would probably choose you over me.

Is there? I think, I mean, maybe I'm just flattering myself, Tom, but I think they would see that I would, I would take the necessary tough decisions for the stability of the realm. And I think,

yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's nothing to do with that. Surely.

What is the main duty of a Tudor King? To have a son. To have a son. And you have a son and not king? To have a son. To have a son. And you have a son. And not only do you have a son, but you've called him Arthur. Yeah. So like Henry VII's eldest son. Whereas I, I have two daughters. Two daughters.

Useless. Absolutely useless. Both of whom have impeccably Tudor names. So Katie, Catherine and Eliza Elizabeth. But no good, really. No. And this takes us, does it not, to the heart of what we're talking about today,

which is Lady Jane Grey, the Nine Days Queen. Although whether she was really Lady Jane Grey, whether she was really a Nine Days Queen, we can discuss that. And she, Dominic, I know that you've been doing furious amounts of research for this. Do you want to just kind of give the listeners a kind of just a very quick synopsis of the basic outline of the plot before we start looking at some of the characters and the detail of what happened? Okay, sure. So we

are in the year 1553. And the King of England is Edward VI. So that is the son of Henry VIII. It's the son for whom Henry VIII waited and prayed so long. Henry VIII had three children, Mary, Elizabeth, and Edward. And it is young Edward, a teenager, who is king. And he has presided over the sort of white heat of the Protestant

Reformation in England. It's furious, isn't it? Blazing. Yeah. So, extraordinary period of kind of religious and cultural revolution, I think you could call it. But Edward dies unexpectedly on the 6th of July. And just a few days later, instead of proclaiming his sister Mary, as a lot of people expected as queen, the Privy Council, that's the body, the sort of repository of authority in the realm, they proclaim somebody else who's not expected, and that person is Lady Jane Grey.

And for, it's actually, I mean, everyone remembers her as the nine-day queen, but for 13 days, she is Queen of England, while Mary is outraged and says, this is a terrible usurpation, I should be queen. Jane appears to have the backing of the most powerful man in the realm, the Duke of Northumberland, her father-in-law. And I think most people probably think that she will prevail, but she doesn't. Her support melts away. Mary is able to come into London.

The Privy Council change sides. They back Mary after all. Bells and bon come into London. The Privy Council change sides. They back Mary after all. Bells and bonfires in London. Poor old Jane is locked up in the tower. And several months later, the beginning of 1554, poor old Jane, who is just a teenager, probably 15 or so, she has her head cut off. And the great thing about Jane is that she is Queen of England, but she is never in the lists, Tom. So this is one of the great controversies about Jane. Is she Queen or isn't she? Okay. So, yes. So we've had lots of questions on basically on that line. Sandra Fearon can stand in for everybody else. Should

Lady Jane Grey be considered Queen? So you think she should be? Yes and no, I think is the very evasive answer. Well, let's come to that at the end of the show. So essentially, to understand this whole extraordinary incident, there are really kind of two major strands to the story, aren't there? The first is the fact that everywhere you look in the Tudor line of succession, there are women rather than men, girls rather than boys. And this in an age where it is assumed that men should be king and that women shouldn't rule is a real problem. And the other is what you alluded to in your account about Edward VI's white-hot Protestantism, because Mary is a Catholic. And so it's the tensions between Catholic and Protestant. It's the religious loyalties of the various candidates to become monarch that also kind of interacts with the

narrative. Absolutely, Tom. Yeah. And so really, if we're beginning the story, we need to go back to Henry VIII and the theme of our last Tudor episode, which was on his attempt to, you know, he had all these wives basically because he was trying to get a son, didn't he? So he had Catherine of Aragon gave him Mary, who was raised Catholic, stayed Catholic. Anne Boleyn, Protestant bride, gives him another daughter, Elizabeth, who was raised a Protestant. And then Jane Seymour, his third wife, gives him at last the long-awaited boy who becomes Edward and who is raised as a very, very hot Protestant indeed. Yeah, that's absolutely right. I think the Lady Jane Grey story, Tom, it's an absolutely brilliant story for a podcast, because it's kind of a who and why done it. Historians disagree about who was behind the coup, who was actually carrying out, is the coup by Jane or is the coup by Mary? And at the heart of it is this girl, this teenage girl

who loses her life. So it's an amazing story. But beyond that, this is an absolute hinge moment in English history. I mean, if Jane had succeeded, no Mary, so no reversion to Catholicism, no Elizabeth, potentially no House of Stuart. English history really does take a different path. But at the heart of it, I completely agree with you you is henry the eighth he overshadows the whole story and it's his i don't think you understand the tudors unless you understand that the sort of the insecurity of the tudor regime because they are parvenus aren't they i mean they came in in 1485 with henry's father and i think we talked about this in the when we're talking about the six wives of henry the eighth that Henry, this thing about the son, which actually I think to 21st century listeners always seems a bit comical, doesn't it?

It's always got the sort of hint of Sid James about it, I must have a son and all this stuff. But actually… Well, and sexist probably. And sexist, of course it seems sexist. But the truth of the matter is, if Henry feels that if he doesn't have that son and if the Tudor line doesn't go down the male sort of branches, then everything his father did would have been for nothing,

everything their family did. So his father, Henry VII, risking everything in this kind of mad adventure and winning the crown at the Battle of Bosworth. If Henry VIII doesn't have a son, doesn't pass the crown to a boy, then he thinks I'll have let down the family and we'll have wasted our time. And it's not just because the only real example of a female ruler is Matilda back in the 12th century, who never kind of became universally accepted. She fought the war with Stephen, this kind of terrible civil war, and her son, who never kind of became universally accepted. She fought the war with

Stephen, this kind of terrible civil war, and her son, Henry II, ended up becoming king, but she herself was never fully acknowledged as a queen. And so that is a kind of shadow that hangs over it, that there is an association between the idea of a female ruler with civil war. So that is obviously something that Henry worries about. But there's also the fact that, as he says, if the female heir shall chance to rule, she cannot continue long without a husband, which by God's law must then be her governor and head. So for Henry, that is an emasculating prospect that his bloodline should become subject to whoever marries, say Mary or say Elizabeth. And particularly if that's a foreign king,

then that's a real problem, not just for Henry, but for England as well. So the stakes are very high. We'll see that with Jane, we'll see that with Mary, and we'll see that with Elizabeth, this issue of the husband. If you have a husband, he will try to rule and people will start to judge you by the husband. So that issue absolutely hangs over. It's not just Henry who thinks so. Again, it's very easy for the 21st century to assume this sort of grotesque whale, the sexist whale is projecting his own weird sexual inadequacies onto Tudor England. Most people in Tudor England, I think, unquestionably think that the king, there should be a king, he should be a man. And if it's a woman, then her husband will inevitably take over. But of course, actually, Tom, when Henry dies, he has the son.

And that's Edward VI. Yeah, he does have the son. But just before we come on to Edward and his rule, because Edward is a boy, but almost everywhere else you look there's nothing but girls you know that the two other children Mary and Elizabeth that Henry's had are girls um Henry VIII has two sisters so you know if you if you're going back and you're looking at the children of Henry VII he has two sisters he has Margaret who marries the King of Scotland her heir is Mary who's married the King of France um who will become the king of scotland her heir is mary who's married the king of france um who will become mary queen of scott who is mary queen of scotts will be commemorated as

mary queen of scott so there's a there is a girl yeah um then you have um mary who herself had actually very briefly been queen of france she comes back she and she marries um henry's best friend charles brandon the earl of suffk, who is absolutely lad, isn't he? He's very much a red trouser man, I think. He's the kind of friend that Prince Harry had before he met Meghan. Precisely. He's definitely a pre-Meghan friend. So Henry and Charles are kind of together. Charles, Charles,

Brandon and, and Mary have a daughter inevitably Francis. Yeah. And Francis then in turn has inevitably three daughters. So everywhere you look, there are, you know, it's a,

it's a female. And so that then makes Edward the sixth absolutely fundamental as it seems to those who think that, you know it's a it's a female alliance and so that then makes edward the sixth absolutely fundamental as it seems to those who think that you know a a regnant female would be a disaster it makes it makes him absolutely key to the stability of the kingdom it is um and he's actually a very promising heir for henry so edward the sixth is also at the centre of this story. So he's nine years old when he becomes king, but he has probably had the best education that any English monarch has ever had. He's had the absolute finest tutors. He can speak loads of languages. Everybody says he's very clever. Because he later dies young, there's often a perception that Edward VI must have been

this kind of sickly weed, a pale weed. I mean, that's basically what I was brought up believing in the textbooks. Actually, this is completely wrong. He sometimes was ill, but people were always ill in Tudor England. He appears to be, as a teenager, perfectly robust, independent-minded, very intelligent. And the Protestantism. Very steely. Yeah. He's really dead keen on this. I mean, he believes it. Yes. And the Protestantism, I mean, because Henry had obviously thought that he was God's agent, but Edward really believes that because he stands at the head of this radical process of reform.

Yeah. So he's been in for four or five years, and they have been sort of stripping out images. They have been getting rid of the last relics. They have been abolishing rituals. Henry VIII, deep down, I think it's fair to say, Tom, and of course, this is a massive simplification. He had broken with Rome about his marriage, but deep down, he was still ideologically, as it were, a Catholic. Edward VI, that's not true at all. This is the real turning point. Yeah. I mean, Edward is kind of like, you know, he's been off to study, to do gender studies at an elite Ivy League university. And he's come back and it's all about, you know, pronouns and decolonization and everything. And that is absolutely what he's about.

He's at the kind of the cutting edge of elite education, elite cultural trends, the fervour of purifying and cleansing England of this kind of great taint of sin. And of course, he's the agent of people who think that as well. But he really is his own man. I mean, he really believes this stuff. And he is desperate, therefore, when he falls ill, doesn't he, in, what is it, 1553. As he starts to, you know, he's what, 15, I think he's 15 then, is he? And so this matters hugely to him. It does, yeah.

That the revolution not be turned back. Absolutely. So he's at the centre of this. He's not the feckless, sickly weed. So at the beginning of the year, Edward VI appears to be in great health. New Year, they have all their usual kind of, you know, I know you love a court mask, Tom.

I love a court mask. They have all their court masks there's much fooling yeah there's great tomfoolery you know there's people there's jesters there's people wearing the wrong trousers it's a great tremendous time the last flow right but in february he gets a very bad cold which sounds like nothing to us, but in the 1550s, you get a very bad cold and it goes into your lungs, you could well die. And basically, it seems likely that he got some lung infection that he just couldn't shake off and it became more and more deep seated, and it's going to end up killing him. And what seems to have happened, so this is a really complicated story and really interesting.

What seems to have happened is that a few weeks into this illness, he starts to think about, well, what happens if I die? And probably at this stage, he's thinking about this as a long-term thing because he starts to work out what he calls his device for the succession. Because he obviously isn't married. He's 15 and he's got no children and the first version of this basically says um it will go the crown will go to the male heirs of my cousin lady jane gray who will come to in a second we haven't gone on to her yet so the question tom is why doesn't he want his sisters to get it, Mary or Elizabeth? Mary is obvious. She's Catholic. But we have a question here from Andrea with the bangs. Why did Edward VI name Lady Jane as his successor rather than his sister Elizabeth? Because Elizabeth is Protestant. So what's the problem with Elizabeth?

This is a brilliant question because it's not because, I think the answer is because it's not just about religion. So let's talk about those two characters. I mean, this is before either of them a queen. So of course, everyone would have heard of Bloody Mary and Good Queen Bess, but they're not yet those characters. So Mary, first of all, daughter of Catherine of Aragon, she's 37. She's had an absolutely terrible life to this point she's seen her mother you know um she's been she's been parted from her mother she and her mother die of cancer alone you know she has been ostracized she's been told that she's illegitimate um you know people have treated her as a sort of punch bag she is a sort of short thin thin, very insecure, very miserable person who's basically been a victim and been abused and ignored all her life. And she was actually Edward's godmother, wasn't she?

She was, yeah. And she's what, kind of 30 years older than him? Yeah, because Jane Seymour had been very nice to her and had brought her back into the fold. Mary, I'll tell you an interesting thing about Mary. She has a very deep voice. Oh, I didn't know that. But she very very slight isn't she but with a good voice but everyone actually says although the bloody Mary she's very kind Tom did you know that she's very I did know that yes I did I'm I'm I'm very much team Mary of course you are because you're

unsound on the reformation well in in this I am um but I mean, imagine the kind of the nightmare, if you're a devout Catholic, of having a 10-year-old boy hectoring you about changing your religion. Do you know what? They have massive rows when he's king. He will kind of call her in. I mean, imagine, yeah, he's nine or 10.

It's kind of like your worst Christmas, isn't it? And says, stop celebrating mass. Stop associating with Catholic priests. He's nine or ten. It's kind of like your worst Christmas, isn't it? And says, stop celebrating mass. Stop associating with Catholic priests. You're an absolute, you know. And they will both have. Stop it. They'll both be in floods of tears, apparently.

I mean, in her case, it surely, as you say, must be tears of absolute rage. Who is this little? She's a grown woman. I mean, she's 30. woman i mean she's she's 30 i command thee yeah this is splendid historical analysis tom very good um so there's him sorry there's her there's mary but then there's elizabeth as well now elizabeth is 20 and of course she is protestant so the question is why didn't he just skip? And I think there are two, to Elizabeth, and I think there are two reasons that are the core of this.

Reason number one is Edward VI, like Henry VIII, doesn't think a woman can be queen. He just thinks, bad idea, end of the Tudors, she'll be dominated by some husband, no one will listen to her, doesn't make sense. So, you know, best not to but of course then that raises the question why does he later go on to jane and the answer i think what he's got but hold on but hold on but also just on elizabeth yeah isn't it also the fact

she's illegitimate this is it this is absolutely it tom he thinks and he's not wrong because everybody thinks it that mary and elizabeth are both illegitimate now that will seem weird to us because we don't think they're legitimate because of course they were both queens of england but henry the eighth had explicitly said um he goes back to his henry the eighth third succession act so henry the eighth's legislation had explicitly said they are both illegitimate um mary because her mother Catherine of Aragon was married to him illegally, because she'd been married to his brother Arthur before that. And Elizabeth, because Anne Boleyn was a witch, married him through necromancy. And therefore,

Elizabeth was also. And there's no reason to believe that Edward VI, Edward VI completely believes this. He thinks this is, he's thought this all his life. But Dominic, has Henry VIII also not made it a matter of statute that if Edward dies, then Mary and Elizabeth in turn will succeed? Well, this is the crazy ambiguity that in his third succession act and in his will, Henry VIII had basically laid down, yes, they're illegitimate, but in the line of succession, it's Edward first and then Mary and Elizabeth. So it's very ambiguous. And actually a lot of people... Well, you say it's ambiguous, but...

Because if they're legitimate, how can they succeed? But it would never have been an issue had Edward not tried to make it an issue. Probably, you're probably right. He's only kind of using it as an excuse, isn't he? I mean, because actually in the event Mary proves to be the people's choice as queen and Elizabeth succeeds without only kind of using it as an excuse, isn't he? I mean, because actually, in the event, Mary proves to be the people's choice as queen and Elizabeth succeeds without any kind of people, with anyone complaining that she's illegitimate. I don't think he's using it purely as an excuse to avoid a Catholic because, I mean,

why does he skip Elizabeth? Yeah, the king, wanting a male, I think, is also part of it. I think wanting a male is crucial. So here's a key thing to remember, Tom. At this point, he doesn't think he's going to die, and lots of people don't think he's going to die. He's just ill, and in the way that, you know, when you really think about your will, that's what he's thinking about.

So in this first version, he says, listen, if I die without an heir, because obviously he thinks that one day he'll get married and have kids. He says, if I die without an heir, it'll go to Lady Jane Grey's male heirs, and if not her, then her sister's sons, and if not her, then her sister's sons. So this is a sort of contingency plan. But then that all changes because on Sunday the 28th of May, which is this crucial day, so we're still in 1553, the doctors, his doctors meet, and they basically have a conference,

and they say, he's not getting better. Do you know what? He's actually going to die. And clearly that is communicated to him because in the next two weeks, he goes back over this thing, his device for the succession, and he makes a crucial change. So instead of the crown going to Lady Jane's male heirs or a sister's male heirs, he adds the word and. So now it says Lady Jane and her heirs male. So in other words,

if he drops dead tomorrow, this girl, Lady Jane Grey, will be the next ruler of England. And that's the crucial change. Okay. So I've got an obvious question, a question that is asked by the splendidly named Richard Cromwell. I'm a big fan of Richard Cromwell. Francis Grey, who is Lady Jane's mother and the daughter of Mary, who is the sister of Henry VIII, must have had a better claim than her daughter, if you're excluding Bloody Mary and Mary, Queen of Scots as Catholics. Did anyone think of making Frances Queen? They didn't.

Because she was past childbearing age by that point. So she wasn't going to have any male heirs. Is that the reason? No, there's still a possibility that she could have a male heir. So why is she excluded? Why don't they exclude her? Why do they her that's an interesting question and other people have asked that uh and the reason is some people think it's because she's thought of as unreliable she's thought of as kind of flighty and difficult but also so not only is francis seen as a bit flighty and flaky and difficult but her husband who is what's his name he's called henry isn't he's henry Henry Grey, Marquess of Dorset. He's descended from Elizabeth Woodville.

Yeah, he is. So all those Greys that were involved in Richard III and everything. Right. But clearly Edward VI doesn't think much of him either. So let's just skip them. So Edward VI is really fiddling with the succession here. And so people sometimes say, well, this is completely illegal. A king can't just pick and choose but of course there was a precedent for that because henry the eighth had been doing that so in a way you again you can understand why edward thinks that because

he's seen his father fiddle again and again with the succession succession acts and wills and but it's the acts isn't it i mean it's the parliamentary acts. Yeah. Henry VIII had it agreed by parliament. In legislation, yeah. In legislation. So that's the difference, isn't it? Well, Edward doesn't do that. What Edward does is he basically gets everybody to sign a document saying, okay, fine. So with the Privy Council, lots of judges, lots of peers. So they all sign up to this, but it's been done in a great rush because it hasn't really been communicated to the great mass of the public and does it have legal force though if it hasn't been

approved by parliament does changing previous act that's been decreed by a king and pass through parliament can can he just do that well this lawyers argue about this he gets lots of lawyers to tell him that it does um but of course they tell him that because that's what he that's that's what he wants to yeah but here's the thing tom if they had told him that he had died lady jane gray had become queen and then been unchallenged or had beaten off mary we wouldn't be doing this podcast and arguing about the legality yeah but she didn't did she and a huge part of the reason why she didn't do it is because it was widely felt to be illegal. A bit odd.

I don't think it's any more illegal necessarily than some of Henry VIII's fiddling, you know, declaring. Because, for example, one of the things that Henry VIII does is Henry VIII skips a whole branch completely, you know, randomly, which is the Scottish branch. So he just leaps over that as though it doesn't exist yeah he does absolutely but he has had it approved by parliament okay fair enough tom tom you know we've been talking for half an hour and i never thought we would spend half an hour talking about genealogy and the constitution okay so i think we should take a break at this

point when we come back obviously we, we should talk about Jane herself. We should. We've barely mentioned. But there's also another key figure that we've barely mentioned, and that is John Dudley, the Duke of Northumberland, who is Jane's, not coincidentally, Jane's father-in-law and has been, he's kind of the greatest man in the realm. He is indeed.

He's a controversial figure, Tom. Should we have fun with him? So we'll come back and we will look at John Dudley and we will look at Lady Jane Grey. So don't go away. I'm Marina Hyde. And I'm Richard Osman. And together we host The Rest Is Entertainment.

It's your weekly fix of entertainment news, reviews, splash of showbiz gossip. And on our Q&A, we pull back the curtain on entertainment and we tell you how it all works. We have just launched our Members Club. If you want ad-free listening, bonus episodes and early access to live tickets, head to therestisentertainment.com. That's therestisentertainment.com. Hello, welcome back to the rest is history we are looking at lady jane gray the so-called nine days queen um and as i said before the break we've hardly mentioned her we will i promise but before we come to her let's come uh dominic to john dud. Do you think he spoke with a Dudley accent?

I don't know. Is that your assumption? I don't believe that he did. So the Dudleys. The Dudleys are one of the great families in Tudor history. Yeah. And, in fact, I commend a new book by Joanne paul just out which uh i was dipping into before this the house of dudley a new history of tudor england um and uh john dudley's father edmund had

basically been an accountant hadn't he yes he got executed by henry the eighth for having been left over from the previous realm it's really important so john dudley has the image of his father you know being executed um yeah and that tells you something about the paranoia that at the at the center of the tudor court is it paranoia i'm not you know paranoia you've got to it's kind of illogical but i mean it's kind of genuinely yeah entirely authentic a completely reasonable exactly yeah yeah so he's been disinherited then he gets he gets you know his father's inheritance back um he's been disinherited. Then he gets his father's inheritance back. He's not really the accountant type, is he? He's much more – he's a kind of Charles Brandon figure.

He's a kind of – in fact, he gets knighted by Charles Brandon, doesn't he? He does. He's less of a kind of roister-doister than Charles Brandon. So he's more – he's a military man. He's a soldier. He's very efficient. So John Dudley – so Northumberlandland as he's always called in the so he has a succession of titles he has first warwick and then northumberland and northumberland he's a duke which is also the kind of so they're only kind of three dukes at

that point there are so to be duke of northumberland is a very big deal yeah um so when people tell this story he is always the villain i mean he's the villain of edward the sixth reign he's the villain of the lady jay gray saga and i think most historians would say now that is completely unfair and wrong um so he's always seen as this because he's the sort of chief minister as it were he's seen as this svengali controlling edward the sixth but i think that's very unfair he's a military man as you say um he fought the scots he fought the he fought all the you know all the traditional enemies basically um he's he fought our peasants he's putting down rebellions and stuff yes he put down the what's kett's rebellion kett's rebellion rebellion against

enclosures which is actually very important in the context of this story. So he's seen, people think of him as very efficient, very far-sighted. He had such a head, as somebody says, that he seldom went about anything, but he first conceived three or four purposes beforehand. So he's a planner. He's careful and cautious. And what happens is at the beginning of Edward VI's reign, Edward VI is sort of dominated, because obviously he's only nine, by Jane Seymour's brothers, Edward and Thomas. First of all, they fall out with each other. And then basically everybody falls out with Edward Seymour,

the Duke of Somerset. And Dudley becomes the sort of figurehead of the movement of all the other bigwigs against him. And Dudley then becomes the big man in Edward VI's council. He's a big Protestant, Tom. He's very into his religious reform. He's very serious about that. He's big on law and order because he thinks the previous sort of administration made a mess of law and order.

He's also very big on financial retrenchment. So, you know, he's sort of – I think most people would say he's actually a very good sort of governor, as it were, of England's affairs. So he's kind of – the money is mounting up. He's big on keeping sort of descent to a minimum um he's a he doesn't really i think it's fair to say uh to dominate edward the sixth as much as people used to think so edward the sixth is probably much more of a partner with him i mean obviously they're training edward the sixth to be king but basically dudley's not just just bossing Edward the sixth around. Um, but Dudley is the big man.

You know, there's a lot of people who don't like him. There's lots of resentments. Of course. And he has a lot of sons. Um, one of whom of course will go on to become Elizabeth's favorite, Robert Dudley,

the Earl of Leicester. Uh, but for our purposes, the key one is, is, uh, he's called Guilford, isn't he?

This is the great, what if this is the great, what if Tom in a different world, there's an England a he's called gilford isn't he yeah now this is the great what if this is the great what if tom in a different world there's an england that had a king gilford king gilford king gilford the first and the people of gilford would be delighted with that wouldn't i mean not necessarily borough of gilford wouldn't they they would and i'm not knocking gilford at all but it's not the most automatically glamorous of places and in many ways the great tragedy of this story is that works out so badly for the people of guildford um who miss out on their chance royal glory exactly so so guildford marries lady jane tremendous catch for him um yes but the the question then is so it's usually assumed that um northumberland is doing the kind of equivalent of insider dealing, that he knows what's coming.

He's had a look at Edward VI's device. And so he's pairing his son up with the girl who may well become Queen of England. But it's possible, isn't it, that actually it's the other way around? Exactly right. It's Edward VI who is pushing it. Yeah, it's possible, isn't it, that actually it's the other way around? Exactly right. It's Edward VI who is pushing it. Yeah, it's exactly right. So what we don't know is if this whole scheme was cooked up by John Dudley or whether it was cooked up by Edward VI. who does treat it as a kind of whodunit and really digs into the motives of all the sort of the suspects and sort of the forensic analysis of the documents. And he says, you know, it's actually not clear that the Guildford marriage is just because he knows Jane will be queen.

That actually the Guildford marriage to Jane may just be an absolutely standard court marriage. And that actually, at this point, Edward may not have changed his plans so that Jane herself will inherit. So if Northumberland had put his son up to this, he'd be playing a hell of a long game. Because, I mean, it would be his grandchildren that would inherit the throne. It's a long time in the future. Yeah, but it's still something to think about. It is still something. And, of course, I'm sure there was a degree of self-interest.

Of course. I mean, there would be. That's completely natural in a Tudor courtier. But I think to see Dudley as the mastermind of the sort of conspirator plotting all this, I think robs Edward VI of agency. I think it's Edward VI's project, actually. So we have a question from Dr. Danny Witch-Hunting Buck. Do you feel it was Edward's idealism or Dudley's ambition that put Lady Jane on the throne? I suppose your answer to that, and I

don't want to put words into your mouth, but I'm going to, is that you would say that Dudley had a measure of idealism as well, that he's obviously ambitious, but presumably he shares Edward's anxiety about, well, definitely Mary, because Mary and Northumberland hate each other. But there's also a kind of religious dimension to that. Northumberland is a radical Protestant, doesn't want Catholics back. He thinks it will guarantee a Protestant England. It happens to suit him. You know, his son will be effectively king.

So idealism and ambition kind of concur. Right. I don't think he thinks oh i've masterminded this huge thing this is my my splendid fiendish plot um and uh it's pretty clear that he hasn't planned every detail in the way that he normally does so you've got this meticulous hard-nosed planner who is desperately improvising and making stuff up as he goes along and and people think that at the time, don't they? Because this is the age of Machiavelli, and the image of the Machiavelli, a sinister kind of figure plotting and pulling strings behind the scenes, has become part of the mental furniture of people in this period.

And so I guess that that must be part of why Northumberland comes to get such a dark reputation is that people associate him with Machiavellian devices and all that kind of stuff. Do you think? Yeah, I think that's absolutely right. I think it also, when the whole thing unravels, everybody blames him. You know, all the other people who were in on it. Which is convenient, isn't it? He's a convenient scapegoat. I mean, there is a slight tradition, isn't there, in Tudor England of basically the last king's chief minister gets the

chop as soon as the successor comes in. So there's a sense in which that happened to his own father. His dad. Yeah. And he basically ends up, it's the same story again. I mean, he basically carries the can for all the resentments that are piled up at the end of the reign of Edward VI. And I think there is that dimension in early modern history generally, isn't there?

The sort of cardinal richelieu, the eminence grise, the power behind the throne. And that's what historians talk about, the sort of black legend of Northumberland as this sort of plotter par excellence. But it's also with the idea of the Machiavelli that it's power for power's sake, that there's not a shred of idealism about it, that it's just about doing down your rivals and making yourself top dog. And clearly that's not all it is for Northumberland. I mean, it must be a huge part of it,

but that's not all it is. Okay, so that's Northumberland. Now, what about the lady herself, Lady Jane Grey, who, of course, isn't Lady Jane Grey by this point, is she? She must be Lady Jane Dudley. Well, she's Jane Grey when she, yes, she becomes. I hadn't thought of that. She does become Jane Dudley, but at this point she's Jane Grey.

So what can we say about her? Well, as always, I think, with Tudor England, as a sort of modern historian looking at this period, I think what's so interesting about it is that the sources are so tantalizing. They give you just enough that you can construct a kind of personality out of these historical characters. But actually, you know, the imagination is doing an enormous amount of the legwork. So we actually know quite, you know, it's frustrating how little we know about Jane. But actually what we know about her

is all to her credit by and large so she's born probably in 1537 i mean we don't even know the year we can't even be absolutely certain of the year she's uh probably born um or brought up in this house bradgate park near leicester so it it's sort of one of the great brick mansions that belong to the Grey family. Her parents are very young when she's born, so they're probably 20 and 21, respectively. What we know about her is that we have one physical description that comes from a Genoese merchant who sees her later on after the whole nine-day queen in Brolio.

And he says, She has small features and a well-made nose, the mouth flexible and the lips red. The eyebrows are arched and darker than her hair, which is nearly red. Her eyes are sparkling and reddish brown in colour. I stood so near her, Grace, that I noticed her colour was good but freckled. When she smiled, she showed her teeth, which are white and sharp. In all, a gracious and animated figure okay

so on her on the question of schooling uh the reputation is that she's a brilliant mind right she kind of speaks nine languages and can construe hebrew and all kinds of stuff is is that accurate where is that coming from so this comes from it's the classic tudor history thing where there's the one source the one fragment on which people have built up a whole edifice of speculation but basically there's a humanist scholar called roger asham who in 1550 so how old is she then she's about 13 he visits braggade and lester to visit her tutor who's another great humanist called John Aylmer. And, of course, this is the great age of humanist scholars. And Asher says, because he wrote about it, he said, Before I went to Germany, I came to Broadgate in Leicestershire

to take my leave of that noble lady, Jane Grey, to whom I was exceedingly much beholding. He says, Everybody else in the household was out hunting in the park, but I found her in her chamber reading Phaedo Platonis in Greek, so reading Plato. And that with as much delight as some gentleman would read a merry tale in Boccaccio. And after salutation and duty done with some other talk, I asked her why she would lose such pastime in the park. Why isn't she off in the park with everybody else smiling she answered me i whist all their sport in the park is but a shadow to that pleasure that i find in plato alas good folk they

never felt what true pleasure meant and she you know she can't get enough plato oh no well that redounds immensely to her credit rather than going off and having fun. But there is a catch. So he basically says, you know, what's all that about? You're a teenager. Shouldn't you be out like, you know, killing animals with the rest of your family? And she says, well, I'll tell you a truth which maybe you'll marvel at. One of the greatest benefits that God ever gave me, says Jane, is that he sent me so sharp and severe parents and so gentle a schoolmaster. Because she says, you know, my schoolmaster, your mate,

gives me all these books and we talk about this. Lovely. But when I'm in the presence of my father and my mother, whether I speak, keep silent, sit, stand or go, eat, drink, be merry or sad, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. I must do it so perfectly as God made the world, or else I'm so sharply taunted, so cruelly threatened with pinches, nips, and bobs that I think myself in hell.

So in other words, she basically is escaping from being pinched by her parents. Yeah. I mean, if she's not good at killing animals, then that's awful, isn't it? Well, I mean, you can imagine her father kind of, no, not like that. Like that. Shoot it. Maybe. So basically, in Tudor historiographical style, people have spent entire careers arguing about. Well, there's enough grift there for a novel, isn't there?

Is she exaggerating? Is she a stroppy teenager just saying oh my parents treat me they don't understand me they pinch me um or is this the truth uh and and is she this tremendous mind i mean she's by the way there was one other thing about her it's a man called sir thomas challoner he said this would have definitely appealed to you tom he said um she had joined chaldean words to the language of the Arabs with a skillful grasp of the idiom of the Hebrews. For to mention her speaking on Greek or Latin would be a small account. Other women speak these languages in civilized places.

Likewise, Gallic and Etruscan speech had added their number to this English lady. If you were to number her languages, this one lady spoke eight. So, Tom, do you speak chaldean chaldean chaldean all right well whatever it is i think that's all very improbable do you think she speaks etruscan no because nobody speaks etruscan unless by etruscan they mean tuscan i.e italian well i don't know i don't i i don't know but if it's etruscan then that's that then that's clearly a lie because nobody speaks Etruscan because they still haven't deciphered it. So there are some people who say, historians who say,

this is humanists, humanist scholars. Kind of boasting. Massively exaggerating. They're also, her father actually, I mean, you did an impersonation of him as a sort of huntsman, but actually her father is quite into this. So he's a patron for a lot of them and and a good contact so they probably want to butter him up by like bigging him up in their

letters to each other so there's a there's an element of that about it as well but the the jane jane saying oh i i hate them they you know they're constantly criticizing me yeah that does sound kind of i mean you can imagine her father like kind of competitive dad in the far show yeah i mean i don't think there's any reason to doubt that um it's the one thing we know i mean that's also and i think that there's no reason to doubt she's a great reader she loves speaking languages she likes talking to scholars that is absolutely consistent and i mean the reason we can be pretty sure it's consistent is that when we get to the end of her life when she's in the tower you know she's writing letters tower, you know, she's writing letters, she's reading the Bible, she's been very, very serious

and having theological arguments with people. So she's absolutely, I mean, she is another red hot Protestant. Yeah. So that's the key thing, isn't it? Really? I mean, it doesn't really matter for the purposes of Edward VI or Northumberland, how clever she is, how many ancient languages she can read, any of that. What matters is her bloodline and the fact that she is as committed and white-hot a Protestant as they are. Yeah. And that's all that matters. I think that's right. So to return to the sort of narrative.

So Jane marries gilford dudley um their their contract their sort of the arrangement is made gilford gets food poisoning doesn't he at the at the wedding well the douglas have terrible trouble with their health so so john dudley is a hypochondriac who apparently has this stomach ulcer or stomach issues that mean he's often missing so yeah as well as being this incredibly impressive military man um he's got this he's a he's a martyr to his stomach well because they hardly ever spend any time together because um gilford gets gets food poisoning at the wedding he's sick for a month and then he recovers and jane immediately gets food poisoning so yeah so so difficult for the happy couple jane's illness may be stressed by the way she may be she may be conscious that

some terrible you know um crisis is looming and she may be you know she may have detected a change in the atmosphere but also funny that they're very young i mean she's what's what, 15 or so. So they get married. Do we know how old Guilford is? Guilford is maybe a couple of years older. He's maybe 17 or so. So they get married. They have been married for basically only nine weeks or so by the time that she becomes, as in a vertical,

as a queen, whether they have, they have consummated the marriage is uncertain with food poisoning going on that's that that's very unsexy but also i think it's said at the beginning people sort of say they're married but they're not going to consummate it because they're both very young and there's a they're not cohabiting so they are spending a lot of time apart but they're not expected to cohabit i don't think there's any sense that this is a a forced you know sometimes in the romantic novel kind of account of lady jane gray she's been forced to marry gilford dudley there's no sense of that people sort of say of him what does somebody

he's he's a bit tall he's blonde haired somebody says he is a comely virtuous and goodly gentleman he's a decent catch you know he's the son of the most powerful man apart from the king in the in the realm he's only the fourth son though isn't he he is but i mean it's still he's a decent catch. You know, he's the son of the most powerful man apart from the king in the, in the realm. He's only the fourth son though, isn't he? He is, but I mean, it's still, he's not going to inherit much and he's always being sick,

but apart from that. Yeah. But she's always reading Plato and like writing, you know, letters in Etruscan. I mean, what, what,

what, what a couple. Some people might say this is a great couple. Do you know, Dominic, we've done our usual. We've been talking for about an hour. We have. But let's just get, let's end on a cliffhanger, Tom, I think, to keep the people happy.

Let's end on a cliffhanger because we're going to have to do a second episode actually telling the story of what then happens. But we've set up the dynamic. We've set up the characters. A whole podcast on a prologue. Take us to the brink of the actual story. Right. So on Thursday, the 6th of July, Edward VI dies.

And as is often the way, as was the case with Henry VII and with Henry VIII, with his father and his grandfather. The whole thing is shrouded in secrecy. Basically, it's an incredibly unstable moment for a kingdom when the monarch dies. You need to get everything. When Henry VIII had died, they had troops in the streets. They'd had people guarding the gates before they allowed the news to get out. This is clearly what happens again.

Edward VI dies on Thursday, the 6th of July. And no news has got out at all. On Sunday, the 9th, Jane is shown in to see his counsellors. And she has no idea what is coming. And this is at Scion House, isn't it? In Richmond. Yes, I was about to say West London, but it's Richmond. She is shown in and the counsellors, including her father-in-law, John Dudley, Duke of Northumberland, they bow to her and they say, the king is dead and you

are the queen. He has got this document and the crown goes to you. And her reaction to that, and I guess you could say, Tom, even at this stage, there is going to be trouble because her reaction to that is not hurrah, queen. It is to break down in floods of tears. And she has serious doubts about this right at this moment. And of course, the rest is downhill. Okay. So with a tear streaked Lady Jane, Queen Jane in the Great Gallery at Scion House, we will pause our story and we will come back in the second part of what has inevitably turned

out to be a two part story. So we will see you. We'll see you with part two very soon. Bye-bye. Bye-bye. Thanks for listening to The Rest Is History. For bonus episodes, early access, ad-free listening, and access to our chat community, please sign up at restishistorypod.com. That's restishistorypod.com. I'm Marina Hyde. And I'm Richard Osman. And together we host The Rest Is Entertainment.

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