The Rest Is History - 317: African Amazons

Episode Date: March 30, 2023

A story spanning modern-day Ghana, Angola, and Benin, historian Luke Pepera joins Tom and Dominic to discuss the tradition of African queens, female warriors, and military commanders. Through the lives of Queen Nzinga of Ndongo, the Dahomey warriors, and the Ashanti Queen mothers, our hosts look at how these figures interacted with their male counterparts, their subjects, and European colonisers. *The Rest Is History Live Tour 2023*: Tom and Dominic are back on tour this autumn! See them live in London, New Zealand, and Australia! Buy your tickets here: restishistorypod.com Twitter:  @TheRestHistory @holland_tom @dcsandbrook Producer: Theo Young-Smith Executive Producers: Jack Davenport + Tony Pastor Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Thank you for listening to The Rest Is History. For weekly bonus episodes, ad-free listening, early access to series, and membership of our much-loved chat community, go to therestishistory.com and join the club. That is therestishistory.com. Forbidden from sleeping with men, the Egozi, the regiment of immensely fierce female warriors who fought for the kingdom of Dahomey, were recruited when young and forced to undergo the kind of military training that would turn most of us into conscientious objectors. One British traveller described how the women were forced to scramble across dense thickets of acacia thorns without anything to protect their feet from bleeding. Other tests were designed to desensitise them to the horrors of combat. Every year, new recruits of both sexes were required to mount a platform 16 feet high,

pick up baskets containing bound and gagged prisoners of war, and hurl them over the parapet to a baying mob below. And in perhaps the most horribly memorable detail, a French officer called Jean Bayol, watched as a teenage recruit called Naniska, who had not yet killed anyone, was brought before a captured young man whose hands were bound. According to Bayol, she swung her sword three times with both hands, then calmly cut the last flesh that attached the head to the trunk. She then squeezed the blood off her weapon and swallowed it. Nice.

Now that was top historian of Africa, Dominic Sandbrook. Oh my word. Writing in Unheard, U-N-H-E-R-D. And Dominic, you were prompted to write that article. Yeah, based on my own close research age yes well that's very evident but that was inspired by the woman king a film that came out um last september yes the viola davis john bieger film which is about the formidable amazon warriors of dahomey at least that's how they were presented, wasn't it? Then there was a huge storm, if you remember, because Dahomey

was a kingdom, an empire based partly on slavery. So there was a huge storm about whether or not these characters should be portrayed as anti-slavery freedom fighters, as they were in the film, or whether this was traducing the historical record. And lots of people on social media got really agitated and tore lumps out of each other about it. And I thought, I'm going to wade in. I thought this was on social media got really agitated and tore lumps out of each other about it and i thought i'm gonna wade in i thought this is a great opportunity to write about my favorite subjects

which are blood and guts i did and so you took it yeah okay and so this idea that you know that there were regiments of of what european observers at the time called amazons it's obviously i mean it's a kind of incredible detail it seems barely plausible plausible. But then I met Luke Pepperer, who is an anthropologist, historian, a broadcaster. And Luke, you're busy writing a book, Motherland, 500,000 Years of African History, Cultures and Identity, which I think will be coming out in 2025. And you said that this theme of Amazons in Africa, that I wasn't just kind of projecting Eurocentric fantasies. Please reassure me that I wasn't, that this is something that is actually a feature of

various places in Africa. Yeah, no, definitely. I mean, female fighting forces, soldiers, military commanders, it's something that's very much a feature of, you know, African societies and African cultures. I mean, dating all the way back to, you know, that of Kush, which, you know, existed and was once in modern day Sudan, you know, began in about 5000 BC, ended at about 350 AD. And there was a period from about 200 BC to about 100, 280, where they actually had, you know, female rulers, the Kandankes, who also led, you know, campaigns against the Egyptians, against the Romans. So the most famous is Amani Ranus, who in sort of 26 to 23, 22 BC, fought against the Romans who had just conquered Egypt and were also trying to annex Kush as well. I mean, what's

interesting, obviously, about the Amazons in sort of the classical Mediterranean is that there's a kind of, you know, there's almost an inbuilt fear because the Amazons of that ilk are basically like an all-female society who don't even allow men to live in their society. Like it's very, it's like what would happen if all the rules of society were completely reversed? And so I'd say one thing I would say is that there's a bit more of a balance in the reality of the African societies. But you can definitely see why that attitude of Amazons, or at least the perception of Amazons, came across to the Europeans who were, or Mediterranean, ancient Mediterranean, whoever, who encountered the female commanders and the female soldiers that existed in numerous African societies and cultures for 2,000 years. So the Amazons have popped up a few times in the Restos history. Alexander the Great was supposed to have met the Amazons.

We talked about, in our recent series about Columbus, about how at one point some of the instructions that he has when he goes out are see if you can find where the Amazons are. So when Europeans go to Africa, and obviously all this reflects this kind of fascination this sort of um probably quite heavily sexualized fascination with kind of nubile female warriors and this sort of belief that it's exotic but it's also forbidden it's transgressive and all of this sort of stuff is there any sense i mean i know we're massively

generalizing because we're talking about different societies at different points in time. But do you think there's a sense in Africa, as there is in Europe, that female warriors are transgressive, but sort of also sexy, as it were, glamorous? Or is there more of a sense that they're just mundane? They're part of, you know, of course, societies have female warriors. That's completely natural, completely normal. Oh, that's a great question. I would say actually mundane, just because, you know, like I said, in Africa tends to be, it's not just a feature, for example, of the military. It's actually a feature of all of society where you're going to have female counterparts to male positions in society. You know, for example, in Kush, you know, in ancient Kush and actually, you know, even non-societies

like the 9th century, Asante, even in Dahomey, there's basically an ideology of duology and dualism, which is essentially that in order for aspects of society to function, you need a male and female counterpart working together. And that's often reflected in the belief systems as well. Usually the main gods of a lot of these African cultures are actually, either they're both male and female. So they're actually of two sexes, or they're of the two sexes fused into one. And it's only by, you know, that connection, that fusion, that actually that God comes into being. So you see it even, for example, in political institutions. So in ancient Kush, from at least the 8th century BC, you, for example, have, you know, the

institution of the Queen Mother there is very strong. So the king rules, but the Queen Mother, i.e. the mother of the king, is the most important person in the kingdom, even though she's not the one actually in charge of the day-to-day operation of state. And that is the king. And kingship in Kush and in other African societies, in fact, quite a few, is elective, meaning that there's a council who decides who the best prince is, and they make him the leader. And then what happens is that his mother ends up becoming the queen mother and becomes the most powerful person in society. But the king has quite an interesting relationship with his mother and with his wife, and all three are needed. And the wife and the mother represent the female counterpart, and the king and usually the brothers represent the male counterpart, and both are needed in order

to rule the state for it to be functioning effectively. So that goes for the military as well. That goes even for the household. So it pervades all parts of society. But Luke, there are examples, aren't there, also, not just of queen mothers, but of women who rule as queens, who have the rule of an entire people. And you mentioned that you have a particular favorite, don't you? Oh, yeah. She was the first person that you nominated when we started discussing this subject. So this is Nginga of Ndongo. Yes. Have I pronounced that right? So tell us about her because she is, I'm ashamed to say I'd never heard of her, but having read up on her, she really is an amazing figure.

Yeah, she's quite amazing and really interesting because I think she's, she has this aspect definitely of being heroic because of what she achieved, but actually the brutality that characterised not only her time, but also her rule, you know,

and things she did sometimes to her own people and also to the Portuguese when we were fighting. Yes. Makes her quite a fascinating figure and, you know. I mean, she's not Jacinda Ardern,

is she? No, definitely not. She's 17th century. So she's a 17th century ruler of the Kingdom of Ndongo, which is what was once in northern Angola, what's now northern Angola. And she's actually the first female ruler of that kingdom. So women are treated, you know, actually fairly well in that kingdom, equally in that kingdom. You know, they're not considered property. They can divorce their husbands if they like, go back to their father's family, even elite women.

So royal women like Njinga was. So she was part of the royal family of Ndongo, was allowed, and she said was allowed to sit in on the meetings of her father's political councils and military councils, et cetera. But she was actually the first sole female ruler of that kingdom. Because actually female rulers, even though there'd been female ancestresses, there wasn't actually a precedent of a woman being totally in charge of the kingdom. And so she was unique in that regard. But she comes to power in the mid 17th century, but it's really just after the Portuguese have gained quite a strong foothold in West Central Africa. First with the Kingdom of Congo, which is nearby, just northwest

of Ndongo. Yeah, and then with Ndongo itself. And the Ndongon rulers of the late 15th century, early 16th century, are quite keen initially to build relationships with the Portuguese because they see Congo, you know, as also a rival kingdom, gaining goods and power and weaponry, etc. And they want a piece of that. But then afterwards, and this being in the late 16th century, the Portuguese attempt to found a colony in Ndongo, the colony of Angola, because they're making alliances with the king. Sometimes the king, including actually Njinga's grandfather and father, are using them to fight rebellious nobles. But then when the Portuguese, for example, defeat these nobles, sometimes conquering the lands and they fall out with the kings. And then obviously they wanted to found their own colony as well, because they start making inroads deeper into West Central Africa, coming across Congo.

And this puts them at odds with the rulers of Ndongo. So they fall out as well. And this is really this tense and conflict-ridden period that precedes Njinga's rule. But she's not trained to be queen, is she? She has military training, I think, as a girl, but she doesn't... Yeah. Her brother is king first? Her brother's king first, so yeah. I mean, she did have training and regard

because actually she was, you know, as the story goes, she was actually her father's favourite. Right. So N'Gola Ambande is her father. And, you know, she's recognised as being special, as being particularly talented. I mean, she's born in the 1580s in the breech position with her umbilical cord wrapped around her neck. And this

is seen as being an auspicious sign. And when the Mbundu, that's the name of the inhabitants of the kingdom of Ndongo, see her being born in this position, they actually say, oh, my mother, there's a sense that she's destined for greatness. So she's taken really under her father's wing. She's the best at throwing the axe, which is in the axe is like a symbol of Ndongon, you know, authority, rule authority. So her brother hates her, doesn't he? And you can see why. I mean, if you're, your big sister is better at throwing an axe than you are. Oh yeah. No, no, no. So there's a resentment there. I mean, in Gola, so what happens is Mbande Angola is actually

assassinated by his own men. There's a rebellious sober in the north called Gavulo. And the Portuguese are also engaging in conquering activities in the region. And his men and his nobles basically see him as a weak figure. So what they do is they trick him into, they say that their forces need help by a river in the north where the Soba's rebelling. And they take him there and then his own men turn on him and assassinate him. And then what happens after that is there's a power grab by N'Golo Mbande because he really wants to be king. He wants to prove himself to his father and to his people. So, I mean, he just goes on a killing spree.

It's sort of like a 17th century GTA type. He kills everybody. But not N'Jinga, not his sister But not Njinga, not his sister. Not Njinga or his sister. So he has, apart from Njinga, he has two other sisters, Kambu and Fungi. So he doesn't kill them, but he kills Njinga's son, for example.

Njinga has a baby son with one of her male concubines. God, imagine Christmas. I don't know if he was invited, to be honest. To be honest. I mean, that's an interesting point you raise there, because actually having assassinated him, Njinga goes east. She actually exiles herself to the kingdom of Matamba. And, you know, she's there for quite a few years.

But, you know, he assassinates his uncles and his brothers and their sons. And, I mean, he just kills everybody. He's terrifying. Yeah, no, he is a terrifying figure. I mean, possibly mildly psychopathic. Am I right that he then needs Njinga to come back and negotiate on his behalf with the Portuguese because she can speak Portuguese?

She can speak Portuguese, yeah. So is she Christian by this point? No, not by this point. But she's been raised by Portuguese missionaries so she can speak the language. Obviously, you know, the Portuguese were a feature of the Ndongon court. So she has exposure to that. But she's also very proud of her Mbundu heritage. Soongan court, so she has exposure to that,

but she's also very proud of her Mbundu heritage. So you're right, when she's in Matamba, I mean, Ndolomban is failing miserably against the Portuguese. He wanted to keep the integrity of his kingdom and he's just failing. The Portuguese are still conquering and the Portuguese make a deal with these group of marauding militants or former soldiers called Mbangala. They're basically like mercenaries. The Portuguese make a deal with them, and they actually sack the capital of Ndongo, Cabasa, twice. Okay, so that's not going well.

Not going well. So anyway, he calls back Njinga from Matamba, not only because she's popular, but because he knows that she also dislikes the Portuguese and wants them out of the region. And like you said, has this exposure to Portuguese culture. She's a lot more worldly than he is. Calls him back, sends him to Luanda, which is obviously now the capital of Angola,

right on the coast. And that's the Portuguese stronghold, given to them by the Congolese, actually. So that's the Portuguese stronghold. So in 1622, he sends her there to negotiate a deal. And he wants the Portuguese to give back parts of the kingdom to help him against the Mbangala. Because the Mbangala, once they've destroyed the kingdom,

they just leave the Portuguese and they go back and sack it again. They don't take orders from anybody. So he wants their help. And actually, when you mentioned Christianity, it's as part of this negotiation in exchange for Portuguese support and peace that Njinga agrees to be baptized. She takes the name Ana de Souza and has a Catholic godmother and is baptized as part of that deal. When she goes to do these negotiations,

the Portuguese are all sitting down and they don't give her a chair. And so she orders an attendant and sits on the attendant. Is that story true? That is true. Yeah, yeah. That's very regal behavior. Yeah. There's even an engraving of it, which is really interesting. You can see images, you know, because it's definitely one of the most sort of engaging moments. But that's true. I mean, whenever the Portuguese conquered the nobles, so the nobles called sobers, whenever they conquered them and made them sign, you know, submission pleasures, afterwards and even during the pleasure used to make them sit on the floor, whereas the

Portuguese governor used to sit on this gold embroidered velvet chair. So it was to reinforce and also act as a symbol of that submission. And then they try to do the same to Njinga because they want her to sign the submission deal. And they don't give her a chair. And she calls over one of her female attendants to make a chair. She just sort of goes down on her hands and knees. And Njinga sits on her and apparently conducts the negotiation for hours just in that position. This is promising that she's going to be a great queen. I mean, this is very much the kind of behavior you want. So her brother dies and she becomes queen. Yeah. And then what happens? So her brother dies, she becomes queen. She's always trying to, you know, she engages in a policy of trying to make peace first rather than war. I mean,

so she's actually trying to reach out to the Portuguese, but she's very keen on not submitting to them. So she's trying to engage in deals with the Portuguese governors, and they're having none of it. So it's actually after that that she initiates a rebellion against the Portuguese. She sends her messengers into all of the air, basically the Portuguese plantations in West Central Africa. So they have people working there and tells them,

her messengers tell them that she's standing up to the Portuguese and that they need to support her. There's a period of maybe 20 or 30 years where she's essentially trying to make peace with the Portuguese, failing, then battling with them. The Portuguese are pursuing her, you know, on different islands, on a stronghold. And, you know, she's trying to remain one step ahead of them, trying to engage in peace. But, you know, it's essentially, you know, conflict ridden few decades against the Portuguese as she's trying to maintain the integrity of the kingdom of Ndonga. And then how does she get involved with, is it Kassanje? Kassanje, yeah, the Mbangala. So as I mentioned, there's this back and forth conflict. Actually,

she makes a deal with Kassanje after a major loss of the Portuguese. She loses terribly to the Portuguese in the late 60s and 20s. And, you know, her forces have been decimated and she needs more soldiers. So she makes a deal with this Mbangala leader called Kisanjan as part of the deal. She not only has to give up her symbols of all authority and agree to marry him,

but she also has to become an Mbangala herself. So she goes through the rituals to become an Mbangala. And that's a colossal deal. Big deal, Huge deal. That's giving up her own cultural heritage to embrace that of their traditional enemies, right? Yeah. I mean, I wouldn't consider the Mbangala to be their traditional enemies per se, but it's definitely contrary to Mbundu custom. You're totally right in that regard. I mean, the Mbangala

are lawless, like, you know, for the most part. You know, they live by pillaging and, you know, and some of the things that she has to do, or Elisa said is that she has to do in the Mbangala camp, including, you know, a blood oath ceremony where she has to drink the blood of the Mbangala and that kind of thing, run very contrary to Mbundu customs, exactly like you say.

Just a quick question on that. So I was reading about that, that she drinks human blood. She has to use some sort of oil made from a slain baby or something. Yeah. Crushed baby, one of her attendants. Yeah. Right. And is that stuff just projection and fantasy or did that really happen? You know, it's so difficult to say. I mean, given the brutality of the Mbangala, I'm not,

you know, I don't know if I would rule it completely out. One thing I would say is that whether or not it was a European invention is something different. It could be a Portuguese invention, but then again, I wouldn't necessarily blame Portuguese. It could actually be something that the Mbangala either say themselves, because their whole thing was about to inspire fear in peoples around the place. So it could either be from them or it's metaphorical. They're different explanations, but it could actually be a real thing. Because no jenga seems to be an absolute liberal and absolutely worse so so um she goes to war with the kingdom of matamba oh yeah is that right and she conquers them and takes the queen captive yeah more longer yeah and so she should properly put the queen to death but instead she it's very liberal democrat behavior she just

brands her oh tom that's just that's snowflakery, isn't it? Absolute snowflakery. Absolutely. I mean, especially this time, yeah. Absolutely. And takes her daughters into service as her warriors. Yes, yes. Well, yeah, she adopts her daughter. You're right.

Doesn't slay Mwanga, the queen of Mentamba. Brands her and sends her into exile to rule another part of the kingdom, which she does shortly after. Snowflakery. Yeah, so frank. But I think it's partly because she has a reverence for for royalty i think that was actually it to be honest okay so it's like elizabeth the first not wanting to kill mary queen of scots exactly exactly i think it's

not spilling royal blood yeah so at this point is she ruling very much as a queen i as an identifiably female monarch or is she you know doing that thing where she's ruling as a queen, i.e. as an identifiably female monarch? Or is she doing that thing where she's ruling as a king, but she just happens to be a queen, if you know what I mean? So in other words, does she dress and behave as a man or as a woman? That's a good question. She definitely doesn't shy away from being feminine in certain regards. Like I said, she has tons of male concubines, et cetera. But then there is also that behavior where she makes her, some of her male concubines, dress up as women and then acts as a man. So it's part of- Right. And her bodyguard is female. So her soldiers are female and her concubines are male. And there's kind of full-scale cross-dressing going on.

I mean, she has, yeah, like you said, close female attendants and generals and all the rest of it. Who exactly those were, we're not sure. But she also has female concubines. But then also that wasn't unusual in terms of, you know, women being allowed to have relationships with multiple men. And especially if they're royal women, you see it in other places as well. Right. Yeah. And so what's happening with Cassandre, meanwhile? Because he doesn't seem the kind of guy who would necessarily be happy with his wife keeping large numbers of men dressed as women. Yeah, with concubines.

Yeah, I mean, Cassandra himself has, you know, says he has up to like 30 sons or something. He's a lad. So, I mean, he's probably busy. He's probably busy himself. But that's true. But how are they getting on? Are they still a fixture? Yeah, I mean, there's still a, you know, an alliance between them. How strong this is after

the conquest of, because she's still using, you know, in Bangala forces, she uses them to conquer, you know, to conquer Matamba. I mean, you know, afterwards, Cassandre also wants to found his own kingdom, actually. So he's sort of getting closer with the Portuguese. So there does seem to be a freezing of relations between them, but she's still relying on his quote-unquote manpower. And so she, what is it, going into the kind of the 1630s, she becomes more and more powerful. Yeah. She enters into an alliance with the Dutch. She starts supplying them with slaves. Well, that's an interesting point, isn't it? Because that goes back to that thing we were

talking about at the beginning about the... The Dahomey. Yeah, the Dahomey, the warriors of Dahomey. So she is slave-taking. That's a pretty established military practice, is it, for that kingdom? Yes, but I think when it comes to Africa, obviously there's two kinds. So the slavery that's happening in Africa, i.e. the types of people that Nginga herself has in her service, are probably better described as serfs. Now, this is not to suggest that it's fine, but also that Africans aren't, you know,

enslaving people too seldom to, you know, for example, you know, knowing full well that they're going to be traded across the Atlantic. But actually what's happening in Africa and the reason Njinga is angry, for example, with the Portuguese is because they're enslaving largely as well free Mbundu citizens. So that's an issue. And so by building this alliance with the Dutch, and she's got her terrifying husband as well, she's able to essentially to rebuild the power of her own people. And she ends up able to essentially kind of reconstitute it and to establish peace treaty with the portuguese is that right yeah yeah but i mean she she makes an alliance with the dutch but the dutch actually

let her down so this is in the 1640s and she agrees to supply oh well so off from the way with the dutch tom so off from the way you know they they form an alliance in the 1640s and they're supposed to storm you know luanda make it up but what happens is the portuguese send reinforcements from south america and they start bombarding because the Dutch have taken Luanda. Oh, so this is all part of the First World War, Dominic. It's a Tom's theory, Luke. Yeah, the Dutch-Portuguese war, global war. Yes. Exactly. It's all part of the Dutch coming into and taking, you know, the Atlantic trade from the, you know, from the Portuguese.

But also in South America as well. I mean, they take, you know, the sugar producing regions of Northeast Brazil. But Nginga is able to capitalize on it, basically. Yeah, she's able to capitalize on it. But like I said, they make a deal to storm the capital. And essentially, when it looks hopeless, the Dutch go ahead to Luanda and board ships and take off whilst Nginga is waiting for the order, or at least for them to make their assault, their combined assault on the capital. So then she has to try other strategies. So what she does is, again, she does this sort of, I mean, two, three-pronged strategy, really. So from Matamba, which is before she conquers Matamba, she's essentially a guerrilla. She's engaging in guerrilla warfare. She doesn't

actually have a base until she captures Matamba after instigating the rebellion. But she engages quite a lot with the Capuchin missionaries, and she writes to the Pope, and she tries to get recognised as a Christian monarch. That's one big thing that she does. And does that work? It does. Yeah, yeah, it does. The Capuchins, because they're very keen to start missionary work in Ndongo, and they want her to give up the traditional practices, the Mbangala rites. So her state starts to become, she starts to Christianise. Is that right starts to become, she starts to Christianize. Is that right? Yeah. So she starts to Christianize. Probably, I would say, I mean, it's always hard to say because obviously, like I said, she becomes baptized in the 1620s,

but definitely in the 50s, particularly 1650s, 1660s, she Christianizes, but she's also launching attacks against Ndongo because the Portuguese have installed a puppet king there. So she's launching attacks against him, putting on the military pressure. She's closing the slave markets. The Portuguese are relying on to supply their plantations in Brazil. And she's also trying to reach a diplomatic conclusion. So she's actually done all of these things. That's why she's renowned as a very capable leader. Her strategic mind is unbelievable. So she's doing all these things at once in order to bring the Portuguese to the negotiating table. But at this time, they also have her sister Cambu in captivity as well. So she's keen to get her back. So they capture her a few years before. And one of her sisters actually has been drowned by the Portuguese also having been captured. Because she's sending,

Fungi's sending letters. She's in Portuguese captivity and she's sending letters to Njinga via secret spy network, telling her about Portuguese captivity and she's sending letters to Njinga via secret spy network, telling her about Portuguese movements and the Portuguese discover these and execute her. So only one sister remains. So one part of the reason she does this as well, especially after the Dutch failure, is to really bring the Portuguese to the negotiating table because she wants her sister back. It works at the end. All of her strategies sort of converge. I mean, her military one was probably the main thing, you know, the overseas council, you know, basically

tell the Portuguese governors to behave themselves. They're like, you're spending so many resources fighting this one woman and we're losing money hand over fist, you know, end it. They're like, please stop. So that is actually, I think it's actually a military, you know, activities in particular, and the fact that she's open to peace that brings the Portuguese to the negotiating table in the early to mid 1660s. So it works, her strategy works. It works. I mean, and, and, you know, they sign a deal, the Portuguese in the initial contract, because there's a bit of a back and forth between what the terms are going to be, you know, contracts and deals go. And, you know, the Portuguese initially want to put in the treaty

that she has to supply slaves, like a tribute of slaves every year to the Portuguese king. And she asked them to take that out. I mean, not because, you know, again, not because she's like woke, not because she's anti-slavery per se, but because that would mean that Ndongo is a vassal, you know, is a summit estate to the Portuguese so she asks them to take them out and the Portuguese do and actually she gains back most of, you know, the original kingdom of Ndongo and is recognised as the queen

of Matamba. But then comes to a very pathetic end. She dies of a throat infection. Yeah, dies of a throat but she's old, this is the thing. But she dies in her bed doesn't she? I mean that's an amazing feat for a warrior queen. She's 75 she's been fighting as a the thing. But she dies in her bed, doesn't she? I mean, that's an amazing feat for a warrior queen. She's 75. She's been fighting as a Portuguese for 60 years.

75. Wow. That's pretty good going. That is good going. A large part of which she's been in the field. You know, in fact, what she says, she thanks her soldiers after the peace is affected. One of the things she said is, I'm tired.

Like, I've been doing this for 60 years. I've been in the field. I'm an old woman. I just want to live with my sister in peace. Like Tom after a podcast. Exactly. What an amazing woman. And thanks so much for introducing me to her. I'm very ashamed I've never heard of her.

Doesn't she appear in the Marquis de Sade, Tom? Yeah, she does, I think. He claimed that she had 50 to 60 men dressed as women in her harem. Yeah. And they had to fight to the death for the privilege and duty of spending the night with her. Right. Okay. I don't know about the second, but the first part's true true people say that about cleopatra and stuff as well right that was brilliant so i think we can definitely notch her up as an african amazon let's take a break now and then when we come back we'll look at the

dahomey warriors but also we'll look at some uh amazons who are very close to your heart the ashanti queen mothers because you are ashanti aren't you yes to your heart, the Ashanti Queen Mothers, because you are Ashanti, aren't you? Yes, indeed. And the Ashanti are very much friends of the show. We did an episode on them. So when we come back, the Ashanti Queen Mothers. I'm Marina Hyde. And I'm Richard Osman.

And together we host The Rest Is Entertainment. It's your weekly fix of entertainment news, reviews, splash of showbiz gossip. And on our Q&A, we pull back the curtain on entertainment and we tell you how it all works. We have just launched our Members Club. If you want ad-free listening, bonus episodes and early access to live tickets, head to therestisentertainment.com. That's therestisentertainment.com. She might have been anywhere between 40 and 50, rather round-faced, with a small straight nose, a fine brow and a short broad-lipped mouth. Her skin was jet black and plump. And then you met the eyes, and in a sudden chill rush of fear realised that all you had heard was true,

and the horrors you had seen needed no further explanation. They were small and bright and evil as a snake's, unblinking with a depth of cruelty and malice that was terrifying. So Tom and Luke Pepper, you will of course know that that comes from one of our very best sources on 19th century Africa, the papers of Sir Harry Flashman, who in the novel Flashman's Lady by George MacDonald Fraser, he pitches up at the court of Rana Valona, the mad monarch of Madagascar. A tremendous figure. We'll come to her in just a second. But Luke, you are talking us through African queens and African Amazons, African female warriors.

And we were promised that you would talk about Ashanti Queen Mothers who apparently for whom you have a tendresse I believe. Yes yes so I'm Ashanti myself and you know this is one of the first things that I got into especially when researching African history and I even know of Ashanti Queen Mothers myself on my paternal grandmother's side so very close to my heart indeed. And so what's so unique about ashanti queen mothers what makes them distinctive so this is ghana isn't it this is the kind of great kingdom 17th century right the way up to the colonial period exactly so now we're looking at modern day ghana and the ashanti empire founded in the early early 18th century and they have a golden stool don't they

which is the golden stool exactly the symbol of the Ashanti and, you know, an axe as the king's throne, although it's not actually allowed to, nobody's allowed to sit on it, always kept on its side. But Ashanti is unique. Well, actually probably not unique, I would say, but it's definitely very unusual, you know, even in Africa, actually,

for being both a matriarchal and a matrilineal society. So women rule the roost, you know, in all kinds of ways. And the queen mother is the most important political figure in the Ashanti authority. So that is what's quite unusual about it, is that we have this one figure who has a say

in so many aspects of society and who has power unrivaled in a lot of the societies in Africa, but also of the world. And everything that an Ashanti person is is connected to their mother. But the queen mother is the mother of the Asante Hine, the Asante king. And so who is the most celebrated, the most marshaly proficient of the queen mothers? Probably Ya Asante Wa, who fought against the British in the early, the War of the Golden Stool. It's a great war it's a great war because she refused to give up the golden stool when it was demanded of the Ashanti by the British and you know actually ends up losing in his exile

to to the Seychelles but you know she stood up because a lot of the Ashanti kings you know they actually had quite good relationships with the British so they weren't keen to fight and she you know lambasted them and said, you know, you weak men, and this wouldn't happen in the time of your ancestors and all that kind of thing, and then leads a resistance against them. So she's probably... So this is the end of the 19th century, is it? End of the 19th century, early 20th.

She's probably the best known and the most revered as well. So a lot of Montgarnens, including my own sister, in fact, are named after her, are called Y Jowar, which was her name, and then Yaa Santowar when she obtained her title when she became Queen Mother. And so as the Queen Mother, do you have the power of command? Do you wield the power of life and death? Any of these kinds of things? Immortality, true. Yeah, good question. I mean, what you most have actually. So it's a more kind of power behind the throne type situation. So the king rules, I mean, talking about Kush earlier, it's sort of that kind of situation, but the queen decides, has the final say on who the king is going to be. So kingship and Asante is also

elected. And there's actually a council of elders, the Bususa Chiri, who decides on the next king. And the people from all matters of the spectrum in terms of being from politics, from military or wherever. But if they choose someone with whom the Queen Mother is not happy, she can veto. She's the only one who has power to veto that decision. And she's the only one who can order the Asante Hine, even in front of his councillors and his advisors, can give him instructions. Don't hide in your bedroom. Essentially. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Essentially. She's the only one who can give him instructions. And in fact, she stands, you know, when King is, you know, is seated in council, she is to his right, just behind him. And that's so that if she's threatened in any way, a bow and arrow spear,

he can actually leap in front of her to protect her. So she has incredible spiritual, you know, symbolic and political authority, but she doesn't actually handle the day to day, you know, so for example, she doesn't, usually she doesn't lead handle the day-to-day. So for example, she doesn't, usually she doesn't lead, let's say, for example, the army. But she can summon them to war. Yes, but when the king goes, she's put in charge of the state. So that qualifies her to rank as an African Amazon.

Just one question about the Ashanti. So there is obviously still the king of the Ashanti. So is there still a queen mother? There is still a queen mother. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And is she still regarded in the same sort of, with the same respect and awe as her predecessors? Yeah, same respect, same reverence.

She's not as public a figure. Right. So even exactly, you know, with the kind of power she wields, but, you know, with Ossetia Tutu II, yeah, you know, she's very much the power behind the throne. In fact, he wouldn't have become, you know, king if not for, you know, her authority and her say so but usually i mean it's more flexible

now usually like i say it was the mother but now it could be an answer it's like a senior female relative um so whether it's even exactly his mother probably is but um not too sure the queen aunt queen indeed indeed so they all sound great but dominic opened this segment with a description of of a perhaps possibly slightly more terrifying sounding figure that was actually the only bit of flashman's lady about her that i could read out without the podcast being cancelled immediately so luke ran avalona the mad monarch of madagascar so she's 19th century yeah and this is a period where the the british and the french are both kind of throwing their weight yeah expanding moving into africa all that kind of thing yeah and she takes a stand against this and is her reputation as a mad monarch with eyes like snakes

that convey pure evil is this a reflection of european propaganda because i cross with her because they're being kicked out? Or is it actually true? Do you know what? I think it's largely a reflection. And to be honest, that's not to say that Rainer Walloner wasn't brutal in her own way. I think she was. But a lot of the sources you have are basically 19th century London missionaries who don't. There's definitely a certain perspective. And actually, one of the few sources we have from a Malagasy woman in the 1850s is an Austrian traveler, Ida Pfeiffer, who goes to Madagascar and she meets the queen and she describes her in sort of a similar mad at the end of her reign, I think, is an exaggeration. But she definitely wasn't. In terms of for the ordinary Marina, it was definitely a harsh reign to be under because she was uber traditional.

That was the aspect is that she wanted to, because her husband, who she gains the throne from after he dies, Radema, was quite open to European and Christian influence, and she was the complete opposite. So she institutes a lot of these, and even in some respects, and definitely to us today, archaic and brutal institutions of traditional marina society, which especially to 19th century Europeans was really quite shocking. So I think that's where that comes from. So like what, Luke?

That's what all the listeners want, I think. Yeah. So the tanguina, which is like a trial by ordeal. So what happens is if someone is accused of a particular crime, usually it doesn't happen often. It's usually very serious crimes like treason. What happens is that they're fed a meal of rice and three pieces of chicken skin, and then also the kernel of the seeds of a tanguina plant. And then they're fed lots of water in order to throw up what they've just eaten. And if they throw up all three of the

chicken skins, they're considered innocent. But if they don't throw up any, you know, less, less than three, they're considered guilty and put to death. That's a very Baroque trial, isn't it? Yeah, I know, right? But what happens is that Radema, again, wanting to cosy up to the British in particularly, actually takes British arms and agrees to have them trained militarily, his troops. He agrees not to use this trial on human beings, and Ranavalona instead on dogs. Dogs.

On dogs. So he's like, all right, we'll do it on dogs. Hopefully that'll be fine for you. And Rana Valona takes it back. So this isn't because the dogs themselves have offended. It's because the dog belongs to the. Probably belongs to the person or is standing in for the person. Yeah.

So you could be accused, Tom, and you could, you have a cat, for example, Edith. And Edith could stand in for you in this trial. And if she vomited up the chicken skins

she she would vomit it up I mean I don't want to go into details but she's got form there is no orifice she is not voiding at the moment oh right nice that's happening live fantastic I'm not going to go into the details but I mean so if she's going around killing pets yeah no wonder she has an evil reputation with the British well no no no, no, no. She takes it back to killing humans. That's what, that's what. Right. I mean, the thing is the British probably are more upset about dogs being killed than humans. But she's killing Christians. Isn't that the key thing? There's that in terms of taking back, but then it's a persecution of Christians. Like I say, just because she's, she's uber traditionalist. So she, you know, she holds these grand meetings

where she tells Christians to, you know, to denounce themselves. And if you're sort of damned if you do, damned if you don't, if they do come forward, some of them maybe tell us to pay a small fine, but others executed. When there's a Christian prophet who's come up with his own Socratic religion, mixing aspects of Christianity with the traditional Marina religion, because he used to be a guardian priest of one of the marina gods. He's put on trial and he's executed. She has like a spy network and she used to root out Christianity. And yeah, so I mean, and she launches a fair few during her reign in the 30s and the 40s, 1830s, 1840s persecutions against Christians, which obviously doesn't sit well with Europeans.

But then also, there were quite a few people who were, you know, converting in the kingdom as well. So it's a bit of a reign of terror. Is it true, the statistics I've read, that the population of Madagascar in her rule halved, went from 5 million to 2.5 million? No, I don't think that's true, honestly. I think it's a bit of an exaggeration. Oh, it's not true. We say that, but, you know, for example, when she's rooting out, there are some, you know, people who are dying from not just, for example, the persecutions. I mean, sometimes it comes to, you know, hundreds or even thousands of, you know, of Christians

over the course of her reign. But also, you know, people who are dying, you know, for example, from overwork. I mean, she initiates, for example, like a buffalo hunt later on in her reign. And, you know, Radema didn't believe in building roads because he thought that they'd aid the advance of an enemy army. And she, in accordance with his wishes, also didn't build proper roads. But then she organizes for all of her nobles and their households to join her on this buffalo hunt in the 40s. And she gets some of her people to basically build the road as they're traversing. But she hadn't organized for the provisions as well so these constructors are just dropping like flies and you know being dumped into

into open graves and then more are being used to some exaggeration so i think that's it's from also those kinds of things there's tremendous seed in uh so in the flashman book so have you the flashman book tom years ago so flashman pitches up in madagascar he serves as her military advisor and sort of and concubine actually it's stud and stud stud is the word and stud so he's constantly being he's in terror of his life and he's sort of being dragged around by her and he has to sort of perform on cue and he's quaking in his boots but he does so but there are scenes where he will have just performed with her and then she will sort of imperiously brush to a side and go out onto the balcony.

And down below, they've got lots of suspected Christians who are quaking themselves down below. She'll point at a group of them and she'll just say, burning. And then she'll point at another group and say, boiling. And go through all this. That's very Amazonian behaviour. That's quite funny. She did do it quite often, actually.

These orders would be read by, you know, a member of her judiciary or something. So she wasn't actually doing it herself in terms of pointing out who would be killed, but she'd be giving orders for them to carry out. But I think one of the reasons maybe she ranks, you know, would rank as an Amazon is that actually, you know,

the British and the French launch a combined attack against her and against the coast. Essentially, they're pushed back. It ends up failing. And she then afterwards launches embargoes against the British. She says she's not going to import or export cows to the Mauritius and the French island of Grignion. And afterwards, the merchants on those islands actually end up paying her a fine, and at the time, $15,000. That's what she demands in exchange for what she considered an insult. Okay. So you can see why she'd have a bad rap.

Exactly. But obviously, there's a complete counter-narrative to all this, isn't there? Which would be, you could tell this whole story, and you could say this is a story of heroic resistance of leadership under tremendous, a little bit like Njinga in the first half. You can, you can for sure, because there is, you know, quite a lot of pressure. And, you know, one thing she wants from the French, for example, is to be recognised as the Queen of Madagascar. They won't give it to her. And, you know, the French and the British are engaging in activity in this area, military, economic, political, and because she's an uber traditionist, you know, when her forces defeat the British and French invasion, she's an uber tradition this you know when her forces defeat the british

french invasion she's seen as being a hero amongst them but then also there were a lot of marina who suffered as well and especially those who adopted christianity um so yeah the way in which these stories about amazons are interpreted and reinterpreted depending on where you're standing what your perspective is brings us back to the to the topic that we began this podcast with, the Dahomey warriors. So what's your take on them? I mean, these did exist. They did. Now, see, it's quite interesting because they weren't always, for instance, a fighting unit

in the army, in the Dahomey army. They became that later on, and actually they start off as a bodyguard and a mostly ceremonial bodyguard for the king. There was a Dahomian custom, which I'm not sure the origins of, but there was a Dahomian custom that no man was allowed to sleep overnight at the king's palace. So if he wanted to have a bodyguard, he had to form them of women. That's what he said. So yeah, I mean, it has to be done. Initially, these were actually his wives. That's actually where the name Ahosi or Ahosi comes from. It literally means king's wives, or they're known as Mino, our mothers. So they're actually initially taken from the female group at the palace,

at the royal palace. So it's mainly in the 18th century, they act for the most part as a bodyguard. And actually there are reports in the traditions of Dahomey of when, for example, there were power struggles or when different factions were fighting against each other for rule of the kingdom, or there were coups, the women protected their king. It happened actually when Gizo, who is the king and the woman king. So when Gizo comes to power, he comes to power via a coup. And the women of the person from who takes the throne are said to have fought very bravely in his defense before Gizo comes to power. So in the 18th century, obviously Gizo comes by in the 19th century, but the 18th

century, the Dahomian Amazons are very much like a ceremonial, partly militaristic bodyguard. And it's actually Gizo himself has credit for transforming them into a proper fighting unit in the army where they're used in wars against other powers. And they are used to capture slaves and to sell slaves to European powers. Is that right? I think, you know, the way that that would be, you know, broken down is that obviously they engage in battles with other groups in Africa. So for example, their fights against the Yoruba and then the majority, and this is what actually happened with the majority of the slave people in Dahomey, especially in the 18th century under the king, for instance, Agarja, is that most of the people, captives of war, would be used as serfs in Dahomey. And then what was left over would then

be traded to Europeans and their fates, you know, unknown, not really sure. But they weren't actually sent out on specific slave raiding expeditions, but they often captured people and more who then went on to be sold as slaves. And Luke, that description that Dominic gave us in his immortal praise that I read out at the beginning of the episode, and not in any way to impugn his status as a historian of Africa. What? But all that kind of stuff about the Spartan upbringing, kind of running barefoot on thorns and chopping off heads and things. Yeah. Is this accurate as far as we know, or is Dominic making it up?

I'm not making it up. It's from the traveller's stories, Tom. French officers and whatnot. So, I mean, okay. Okay. French officers, yeah, as part of the training regime. I mean, whether they were as bloody is obviously to be debated, but there was obviously quite a harsh training regime because, you know, the women, you know, the Dahomian women and the unit of female

soldiers in the Dahomian army are reckoned by a lot of the accounts of 18th and 19th century European travelers to be a lot better fighters than, you know, the men of the army as well, better, you know, braver and better at using muskets. And actually there are a lot of traditions, for example, when, you know, the Dahomans are fighting against, you know, towns of the Yoruba, for instance, that when the men are pushed back, it's actually the women who go in and secure, you know, who help them win the battle at the end. So they definitely had come through a rigorous process. There's also very few of them. I mean, they start off numbering the maximum 800. And on the Gizo, well, they're sort of institutionalized and expanded. They go to about 3000. And their makeup, the way they're constituted and the way they operate in the field is similar to how the main Dahomian army, or at least the

male Dahomian army also operates. So they're utilized very much and very effectively. They're not like a support unit or anything like that. They are very much an important unit of the Dahomian army. I suppose there's two things I would say. One is that, so for example, that French officer, Jean Bayol, who is describing the woman who kills a captured young man, she cuts his head off. L'Amesca. I mean, it's perfectly possible, of course,

that is being staged in Brighton to impress the French. You know, that it's not necessarily the norm, but this is a big demonstration. Going back to what you said in the first half, people want to be thought of as fearsome and formidable and all the rest of it. Want to be thought of as fearsome, very true. I mean, essentially it's because of the weather.

I don't know, possibly, I don't know about the drinking of the blood, but I mean the Dahomians definitely did decapitate, you know, because actually the heads, that was actually one of the things that you used to take to the king and you'd be paid per head that you gave to the king. But then again, as European reports apparently reports of heads, you know, rotting like

you know, by the palaces of the Dahomian kings. But I think actually there was a system of, you know, getting paid for giving you know, heads or life captives ideally, but you know, decapitated heads to the king and you get paid for it so well that was the other thing i was going to say though is that we can't ever

quite get away from the fact that so much of this story and indeed you could i mean if you were being harsh you would say even the fact that we're doing this as a podcast is a reflection of a sort of prurient european fascination yes yeah and some extent, even the success of a film like The Woman King, there's a slight folk memory of this sort of, oh, glamorous, sexy, but also incredibly violent. Yeah. Do you not think that? Do you think that's fair, Luke?

I think so. But I think also sometimes a reflection of the times, you know. I mean, I'm a big fan of world history. Whenever I read, you know, the history even of the Crusades or if you're reading about, you know, the wars in Europe, World War II, I mean, you just see that, you know, this is just an aspect of, you know, history, either that people are fascinated by, or sometimes just the sign of, you know, a sign of the times then. I mean, you know, Njinga, for example, was, you know, was to a large extent a victim of circumstance, you know, she didn't set out to engage in what

she did, the Dahomians didn't set her. But it's true, actually, as well. There's a kind of fascination. But also, you know, it was an aspect of, in the same way that, you know, different European powers, you know, in China, India, wherever, you had different groups fighting against each other. It's just that you had the, you know, similar thing happening in Africa, especially in, you know, in these brutal periods. But you don't think the fact that they're women makes it more…

Oh, women specifically? Yeah. I think from the European perspective, yes. I think from an African perspective, like we were saying earlier on, it's not that unusual, but it's definitely something that's just not... And I don't think there's anything right or wrong

about this per se. It's just the way that the cultures have developed. There are multiple theories put for why Africa does have female, female figures in Africa become important in so many different aspects. And it's related to environment, but also religion and culture. I mean know important in so many different aspects and it's you know related to environment but also religion and culture i mean you know so many so many different explanations but you know in an african context not seen as unusual but definitely in a in a western context having you know women you know fighting in that in that regard so you know

up in the front line and and also obviously the victorian ideals about women being held up on the pedestal and they can't do this and they have to be let up. There's a lot more cultural weight for them. So I think you're right. I think it is, but I think that's just simply because, and it's arbitrary, it's just simply because of the way certain societies in Africa developed and simply the way certain societies in Europe are developed. Well, Luke, what a fascinating tour d'horizon. And I really think you shouldn't come on any more podcasts and you should just devote yourself to finishing your book motherland 500 000 years of african history i cannot wait to read it thank you and obviously when i say don't come on any more podcasts i'm

excluding us because it would be wonderful to have you back and talk other aspects of african history thank you so much so much for that thank you everyone for listening and we'll be back very soon with more history more history dope as reagan might put it bye-bye bye-bye bye-bye thanks for listening to the rest is history for bonus episodes early access ad-free listening and access to our chat community, please sign up at restishistorypod.com. That's restishistorypod.com. I'm Marina Hyde.

And I'm Richard Osman. And together we host The Rest Is Entertainment. It's your weekly fix of entertainment news, reviews, splash of showbiz gossip. And on our Q&A, we pull back the curtain on entertainment and we tell you how it all works we have just launched our members club if you want ad-free listening bonus episodes and early access to