The Rest Is History - 394. JFK: Death in Dallas (Part 3)

Episode Date: November 30, 2023

“It wouldn't be very difficult to kill the president of the United States, you just have to be in a high building with a high powered rifle, telescopic sight and there's nothing anyone could do about it….” On the morning of Friday, 22nd November 1963, John F. Kennedy awoke with just hours to live. Ahead was a flight to Love Field, Dallas; then a motorcade into the heart of the city’s business district. But as the president and his glamorous wife, Jacqueline, settled back in their limousine for the journey towards destiny, they had no idea of the horror to come …   By 12:22pm the motorcade had reached Dealey Plaza in downtown Dallas, passing the nondescript Texas Book Depository and slowing for the unexpectedly large and enthusiastic crowds gathered to greet the President. At 12:25 bystanders spotted the figure of a man on the sixth floor of the Book Depository, staring strangely away from the motorcade. Then, at exactly 12.30 pm, the first shot rang out around the square…. Join Dominic and Tom as they break down the events of the day of the assassination of President Kennedy moment by moment, from the night before the murder to its traumatic aftermath, poring over the evidence in order to solve this supremely fascinating historical mystery.  *Dominic’s book The Fall of the Aztecs is available now from bookshops across the UK - the perfect Christmas present!* Twitter:  @TheRestHistory @holland_tom @dcsandbrook Producer: Theo Young-Smith Executive Producers: Jack Davenport + Tony Pastor Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Thank you for listening to The Rest Is History. For weekly bonus episodes, ad-free listening, early access to series, and membership of our much-loved chat community, go to therestishistory.com and join the club. That is therestishistory.com. Storm of political controversy swirls around Kennedy on visit, thousands expected to greet JFK. Dallas police said Thursday night they anticipate that thousands of welcomers will jam Love Field to greet President Kennedy when his jet airliner lands there Friday morning. Ed Reynolds, president of the Dallas Retail Merchants Association, urged owners and tenants of Main Street buildings to fly the U.S. flag.

He said the association also arranged for overhead decorations. Former Vice President Richard Nixon, who ran against President Kennedy in 1960, joined police in urging Dallas residents to give President and Mrs. Kennedy a courteous reception. Nixon, who was in Dallas for a meeting of soft drink bottlers, said discourteous groups harm their own cause and help their opponents. One anti-Kennedy faction scattered leaflets which condemned the President for his stand on integration. President Kennedy will ride in a blue convertible. If rain is falling, a plexiglass bubble will protect him. The specially built car was flown here for use

in the motorcade. Police said the motorcade will move slowly so that crowds can get a good view of President Kennedy and his wife. That, Dominic, was the Dallas Morning News on Friday, the 22nd of November, 1963. It is, absolutely. Never has it been read in such a remarkable accent, I have to say, Tom. There was a definite hint of Wiltshire there, I think, as much as of Dallas. I wasn't trying to be Dallas. I was trying to kind of multi-purpose, cheery 1960s US newscaster, and I think I hit the spot there. Do you think so? That's good. It's good that you think so, anyway. Well, we're talking of hitting the spot. Well, there's a lot of ironers there, aren't there? There's a lot of ironers in that article. The fly on the US flag,

the presence of Richard Nixon, who has just been in Dallas for a meeting of soft drink bottlers. Yeah. Urging a courteous reception. Yeah. And the police saying the motorcade will move slowly so the crowd can get a good view of President Kennedy and his wife. And kind of the grim, macabre irony of that is one that no one needs explaining because the events of Friday,

the 22nd of November, 1963 are so iconic that pretty much everyone knows about it. Yes. And I have to say, Dominic, you recommended that I read Parkland by Vincent Bugliosi, which is one of the most gripping history books that I've ever read.

Twinkie. Wow. It's a kind of blow by blow, almost minute by minute account of everything that happens on the day of Kennedy's assassination and the days that follow. And what I found when I was reading it, it's a bit like kind of reading Hamlet for the first time, where you're aware of all the quotations, but you don't quite know how they fit in. And likewise, I had a sense of grassy knolls and Jack Ruby and book dispensaries and things like that. But you read it and you thread it all together and you realize that this is one of the great primal narratives now of history. It is absolutely modern history. Certainly it's become a foundational myth for modern America, the moment of lost innocence, hasn't it? And you mentioned that Bugliosi book. So I reviewed that for the Daily Telegraph, I think about 15 years ago. And it had a different title then, it was

called Four Days in November. And it has a really interesting history because actually it's quite a long book isn't it yeah but it is merely a fragment yeah of a much longer book called proclaiming history which is this enormous survey not just of the events of the day but a biography of lee harvey oswald and an absolutely forensic investigation of all the conspiracy theories surrounding kenn's assassination. So it's an extraordinary, extraordinary book. And Bugliosi himself is a remarkable man because he was the prosecutor of Charles Manson, the Manson murders in the late 1960s. Helter Skelter. Helter Skelter was his book about the case. And Dominic, can I just ask, I am not in any way an expert in this at all, as

listeners will already have gauged. To what extent does Bug the Ozy's book hold up? Is it widely recognized as authoritative or does it have lots of critics still to this day? First of all, if you look on Amazon, you'll find loads of disobliging reviews of it. It's very unpopular with people in what you might call the conspiracy community or people who are sympathetic to the conspiracy theoriesists. So lots of people will say he goes too far in trying to sort of sow the conspiracy theorists' fields with salt. The other thing, I mean, we were talking about this, weren't we, off air in the last few days. The Kennedy assassination is not a subject that academics write about, that academic scholars write about. So there's very little, as it were, scholarly literature on the Kennedy assassination. Because it's like Atlantis or aliens.

Exactly. It is seen as a sort of Graham Hancock shaped hole into which you will fall and you'll never climb out again. And you'll find yourself in this weird sort of hall of mirrors. And it doesn't really play a part in any kind of scholarly conversations about 20th century America. I think because people are frightened of it because they think it's the stuff of UFOs and as you say, ancient Atlantis and the Yeti and all that business. And yet, I mean, it is very, very historically significant, isn't it? As a foundational episode in modern America, as you said, but also as an expression of powerful themes in American history. Absolutely. Absolutely. All the anxieties about the Kennedy assassination, the anxieties about

an overreaching government, about corrupt conspirators, about an establishment that rigged things to suit themselves, all of those kinds of things. But also, of course, it opens up windows into the tumult about civil rights in the early 1960s. About Vietnam. Yeah, the rise of the new conservatism in opposition to the sort of top-down establishment liberalism. Vietnam, as you say, Cold War, Cuba, all of these kinds of things. So, Dominic, all the themes essentially that we were kind of touching on in our previous episode where we looked at the achievements or non-achievements of Kennedy's presidency. But you brought us to Texas in November 1963.

And so perhaps now we should dive in deep and look at the events of his trip to Texas. Because you said that Parkland was originally called Four Days in November. And that was the name of a film that was released in 1964. It was nominated for an Oscar as Best Documentary, and I watched that last night. I hadn't realized that actually Kennedy had gone to Florida beforehand. Yes, that's right. He was making a general kind of southern trip. To shore up his base.

Right. As we said last time, if you listened to our podcast last week about Kennedy's early life and then his road to the presidency and his presidency, Kennedy in November 1963 is looking forward to the election a year later. He has the best approval ratings that anyone has ever had. On the other hand, as with all democratic presidents, his re-election depends upon him preserving a coalition of kind of northern cities and industrial states and the, up to this point, solidly democratic South. But his support for civil rights in the summer of 1963 has imperiled his coalition in the South. So it makes sense for him to do this little Southern tour a year out from the election to show his face, do all the airport photo calls, taking Jackie with him will bring greater publicity because he knows how popular she is and how much people

are excited to see her. And this is her first trip with him since 1960 on a kind of trip like this. Exactly. But also, crucially, it's her first trip since the tragic loss of their baby son, Patrick, who had died, I think, two days after being born in August. And this had been a devastating moment for both of them. They have two children already, John Jr. and Caroline. She had gone into a deep depression, but people said it had kind of brought them closer together. So they are making the trip together. It is a kind of special moment for them.

So as you say, Tom, they've been in Florida on Thursday, the 21st of November. Kennedy, of course, doesn't know it, but he has a day to live. They fly into Texas. They go to San Antonio. They meet up with Vice President Johnson and his wife, Lady Bird Johnson. They go to Houston for a dinner. And then very late at night, so about 11 o'clock, they arrive in Fort Worth, which is Dallas. It's kind of sister city there. They're effectively one metropolis. They get into the hotel very late.

It's going to be a busy day the next day, so they go straight to bed. And JFK doesn't have the best suite, does he, that goes to LBJ? Because the Secret Service are worried it's not secure enough. That's right. That's absolutely right. He has a decent suite. It's in the Texas Hotel in Fort Worth. He doesn't sleep in the same bedroom as Jackie. That's absolutely right. He has a decent suite. He's in the Texas hotel in Fort Worth. He doesn't sleep in the same bedroom as Jackie. That's very common. He's obviously going to be

working late often. She won't want to go to bed earlier. That's sort of fairly standard. And they've got a very busy day lined up. The plan for Friday the 22nd in November is there will be a breakfast event in Fort Worth at the hotel, and they'll have local business leaders from Fort Worth. They will then fly to Dallas. We'll talk about the flight in a second, but they'll fly to Dallas. He will go through the streets of Dallas in a motorcade, which you talked about in that Dallas Morning News clipping. He will speak to Dallas business leaders at the Trademarks, just outside Dallas's downtown to the south. And then he will go on to Austin, Texas for an evening fundraiser. And then he's going will go on to austin texas for an evening

fundraiser and then he's going to go on to lbj's ranch isn't he yes he's going to rest at lbj's ranch and then on saturday the next day he will go back to washington and the big thing they're looking forward to is their son john jr's third birthday on monday it's very important to them they're back for john jr's birthday oh Oh, dear. The shadows of tragedy are awful. Well, there's a human story here. There are multiple human stories that are so often forgotten amid the swirl of conspiracy, paranoia and stuff. Right. So let's go on to Friday and let's take this kind of-

Play by blow. Like detectives piling up the evidence, let's pile up the evidence. Kennedy awakes at about 7.30 in the morning. As you said, Tom, he's not in the best suite. He's on the eighth floor. He has a black man servant called George Thomas who often goes in to wake him. And George Thomas puts out his suit and whatnot. They don't get much peace. You don't get much sort of solitude if you're the president of the United States because they've got all this huge entourage and they've got all this colossal amount of equipment that they take with them. It's a phone, isn't there? So he can reach anywhere in the world at any time. He's meant to be never more than five minutes away from this crucial network that will plug

him into the White House switchboard and mean that he can reach. If he wanted to call you, Tom, he could do it. He could do it. Exactly. So he gets up. Jackie is still asleep. The description of him getting up is actually a fascinating insight into the health problems that we talked about last week. So he has been sleeping on a sort of board that he has, a special bed board, which goes with him wherever he goes for his back, which is destroyed. He puts on this back brace, this sort of stiff corset type thing. This will be important, won't it yeah when

the events happen the role of that and dominic again just to name check the four days in november the documentary i saw there is a sequence of him getting into his car in florida and oh the look of pain on his face as he sits down really really vivid yeah and also kind of throw away comment from a journalist a reporter saying about, you know, you could see his tan from five miles away. And he's got that tan, hasn't he, principally to cover up kind of the marks of pain and illness that he's got on his face. That's right. He's a good example of somebody who, because he's in such horrendous health, actually almost overcompensates by presenting a portrait of kind of glowing good health at all

times. But the tan also helps him to disguise the fact that he's taking the cocktail of drugs. He has Addison's disease. He has suffered with fever ever since World War II. So the tan helps to cover up the fact that he would otherwise look very sallow and kind of yellow. So yes, he goes through this great operation of getting ready. It's now about eight o'clock and there are 5,000 people downstairs in the parking lot of the hotel and many of them have been waiting for three hours or so to see him. So actually the granular detail gives you a sense of the demands on any public figure in the early 1960s. And especially a president. Yeah. He is given his news briefing for the day. There's very

little news. Actually, the fact that one of the leading items in the news briefing is a Labour Party victory in the Dundee West by-election in Britain, Tom. Labour winning by-elections in Scotland, whatever next. Yes. But the big news in the press is twofold. First of all, as we talked about last time, there was terrible faction fighting within the Texas Democratic Party. He won Texas by, what, 46,000 votes or something in 1960. So not many. He needs the Texas Democratic Party to be united. The feud between Governor Connolly and Senator Yarbrough, so on the relatively conservative, relatively liberal wings of the party, respectively, that's a problem and he has to fix it. That's part of what this trip to Dallas is all about. But the other big thing

is about his reception. Now, you mentioned Nixon saying he hoped that Kennedy would get a courteous reception. Dallas, in particular, has a reputation as being a difficult place to visit. So Lyndon Johnson, who is from Texas, had been spat at during the 1960 presidential campaign. More pertinently, Kennedy's predecessor as the kind of democratic standard bearer, Adlai Stevenson, who's now his ambassador to the United Nations, he had actually been hit with a placard and spat at less than a month earlier. And the Secret Service, I gather, had recorded 34 threats on the president's life from Texas between 1961 to 62. So Kennedy kind of knows what he says, doesn't he? Oh, we're heading into nut country today. He does indeed. So Dallas has this reputation as a hotbed of conservatism. It's a very business-friendly town. It's a town with a lot of people who are suspicious of the federal government. Obviously, civil rights has ignited a power keg among a lot of white Southerners.

There have been leaflets out on the streets with Kennedy's face on saying, wanted for treason, all of this kind of thing. Now, the interesting thing is that how much are we focusing on these things because they're unusual, or how much are we focusing on them because we know Kennedy is going to be assassinated? In the 1950s and 1960s, it was very common to see leaflets and pamphlets and things like that making strident, wild political claims. So this is the heyday of the far-right John Birch Society. Obviously, the Ku Klux Klan is still kind of going strong in parts of the South. There are inflamed passions and have been for considerable time. I mean, it's not that long since McCarthyism. So there are lots of people, I mean, not a majority, of course, by any means, but there are people who will say Kennedy is a communist.

You know, there are people who think Eisenhower was a communist. So the fact that there are leaflets and the fact that there are people who are possibly going to heckle him, that's not something he's unused to. You know, that is part of the territory in early 60s America.

But there does seem to have been, and maybe this is retrospective, but I don't think so, there does seem to have been a particular jumpiness around this trip. The plan is what? That he's going to drive nine and a half miles in a motorcade past very high rise buildings. I mean, people in the security service are twitchy about this, right? They are. Yeah, of course they are. They know that Kennedy, he likes to put himself into the crowds. He likes to stop and greet people. All of that glad-handing is part of his style. And it's the security service's job to try and intercept these things. Somebody had tried to shoot Roosevelt in the 1930s. Every year there are death threats against American presidents. So of course they are anxious. I guess they're confident that they

can handle it. Otherwise they wouldn't be doing the motorcade at all. But that morning's all going very well, isn't it? The breakfast meeting in the Grand Ballroom goes tremendously. Kennedy does his bants. Jackie turns up a bit late because she's been titivating and she turns up in her pink Chanel suit. And Kennedy kind of jokes that in Paris he'd been introduced as the guy who accompanies Mrs. Kennedy. And it's much the same thing in texas and there's much horse play with a stetson hat there is but he doesn't put it on he doesn't want to put it on yes and then he gets given a pair of cowboy boots to guard against the rattlesnakes at lbj's ranch so it's all seems to be going tremendously well it does go well this goes very well and as you say jackie i mean how can she

possibly know that when she puts on that outfit that morning which is this very elegant pink chanel suit with a pillbox hat that that is the outfit with which she'll be forever associated that ends up being splattered with her husband's blood anyway they do the fort worth event that's all great they go back upstairs they've got a few moments before they have to go so they go back up to the suite and it's actually when he's in the suite that his aide, Ken O'Donnell, shows him the Dallas Morning News. And the Dallas Morning News that morning is carrying a full-page advertisement with a funereal kind of black border that says, Welcome, Mr. Kennedy, to Dallas. Now, this ad is going to be very important later on for Jack Ruby, so listeners should kind of make a note of this.

The ad says that it's been placed by something called the American Fact-Finding Committee, chaired by one Bernard Weissman. And it has 12 questions for Kennedy. And the 12 questions are basically, why are you supporting communist policies? Why do the communists rejoice in all your achievements? Why have you been using the Central Intelligence Agency to assassinate and eliminate our anti-communist allies. So this, of course, is a reference to something we talked about last week, Tom, which is the coup in South Vietnam against President Diem. Diem had been killed.

The CIA knew about it, and Kennedy was very conflicted about it. And Kennedy sees this advertisement, and it's clear that it makes him anxious. He's cross about it. And so this point that he says to O'Donnell and the other people in the room, he sort of just says it idly. He looks out the window and says, it wouldn't be very difficult

to shoot the president of the United States. You just have to be in a high building with a high-powered rifle, telescopic sight, and there's nothing anybody could do about it. Well, that is a chilling note, I think, on which to finish the first half. And when we come back, we will follow JFK and Jackie Kennedy on the motorcade into Dallas. Entertainment news, reviews, splash of showbiz gossip. And on our Q&A, we pull back the curtain on entertainment and we tell you how it all works. We have just launched our Members Club.

If you want ad-free listening, bonus episodes and early access to live tickets, head to therestisentertainment.com. That's therestisentertainment.com. Hello, welcome back to The Rest Is History. We are in Fort Worth, Dominic, but we are about to leave with the Kennedys for Lovefield, Dallas. And this is quite odd, isn't it? Because actually it's a 30 minute drive. But Kennedy wants to convey the sense of arriving in Dallas, Air Force One, his emergence from the plane, Jackie's emergence, it will be on all the news. And so that's what they do. It's true.

It's a 13-minute flight from Fort Worth to Dallas. I've been to both Fort Worth and Dallas, Tom, and they're very close. I mean, they're effectively the same city. I know that will offend people in Fort Worth, but it's bonkers to fly between them. But of course, as you say, if it's all about the campaign, it's all about television. Kennedy is a master of television. And the point is to have the grand entrance at the airport. So they get onto Air Force One at 11.25. At 11.40, they land at Lovefield, which is north of downtown Dallas. And everything is looking good. It's a beautiful day, beautiful autumn day, because it had been rainy before, hadn't it? And that's cleared up. Hence the talk of the

plexiglass bubble that would have gone on his car had it continued to rain. So they're delighted. They're delighted that the weather is so good. Kennedy says to Ken O'Donnell, his aide, oh, this is great. This trip is going to be terrific. Looks like everything in Texas is actually going to be really good for us. And they come down the steps. There is a big crowd there again, 2,000 people or so, and both Jack Kennedy and Jackie, they kind of work the line a little bit. Now, there are some signs of hostility in the crowd. There are some placards that say traitor, or they proclaim their support for Barry Goldwater, the likely Republican nominee in 1964, or they say Yankee go home or

anything like this, but nothing on the scale that they had feared so that's actually looking pretty good because you would expect this anyway at these kinds of events yeah so within about 15 minutes about 11 55 they're all off the planes the whole entourage and they're getting into the motorcade and dominic just to mention one thing yeah jackie has been given a bouquet of red roses she hasn't Which she holds and she takes with her into the car. That's right. Yes. Now, this motorcade that has been so controversial and has made for so many difficult conversations

because the three key people in the Texas Democratic Party, who are the Vice President Lyndon Johnson, the Governor of Texas, John Connolly, and Senator Ralph Yarborough have been squabbling like children, disinviting each other from dinners, refusing to sit next to each other in the cars. I mean, this is the... And Kennedy has had a real go at Yarborough that morning and said, I'm going to travel with Governor Connolly in the first car. I don't care if you and Lyndon are not on speaking terms.

You will go in that car together. And so finally, they've got that all sorted out. It's a huge motorcade because there's so much security. Lots of police cars, policemen on motorbikes. Kennedy will go in the third car. So there are police cars, Secret Service and whatnot that will go first. Kennedy will go in car number three, which is a Lincoln Continental, specially armor plated and customized. And he and Jacqueline will ride in that car with John Connolly, the governor of Texas, and Nellie Connolly, the governor's wife. And Connolly and his wife are in the front, right? And Kennedy and Jackie are in the back. And there's a kind of raised seat. Is that right? That Kennedy can be kind of lifted up so that he's more the center of attention.

So there are two Secret Service men right at the front, including the driver, Bill Greer. Then you're absolutely right, Tom. There is what's called jump seats. So they are the seats that are kind of put down so that Nellie and John Connolly can sit on them. And they are slightly lower than the Kennedyys seats and slightly more kind of positioned inside the car yeah so that the kennedys will get much more attention they'll be just a tiny bit higher they'll get their sort of focus of attention caesar on top of the chariot precisely so they're not going to have the bubble top hood behind them is a secret service car behind the

secret service car is the car containing lyndon johnson and his wife lady bird and senator yarborough and then behind them is this colossal host of entourage cars and bikes and also the press sort of cars containing the press and they're all going to sweep through dallas the nine and a half miles to the trade mart and i think it's really important to give people a sense at this point of the key bit of the route they're going to come through downtown dallas south down main street so that's lined with all the big office blocks and buildings i mean if you've been to dallas it's one of your classic american sort of cities where the downtown is slightly been hollowed out of european style

shops and it's all banks and businesses and gleaming towers and all of this kind of thing but usually actually deserted in the daytime of course not today yeah ewing oil of course yeah style shops and it's all banks and businesses and gleaming towers and all of this kind of thing but usually actually deserted in the daytime of course not today yeah ewing oil of course yeah they're going to go down main street to the courthouse on deely plaza deely plaza is very small it's like a little triangle of grass at the end of main street they're going to turn right on houston street and then they're going to turn immediately left on elm street which curves down around this little plaza and down into the underpass that will carry them out of the downtown to the trademark so it's very straightforward and on elm street 411 there is a square kind of slightly ugly

it looks late 19th century doesn't it but it's kind of collapsed and it's been rebuilt in identical style and this is the texas Depository. But no particular reason why anyone would have any interest in it. No. But just an interesting local feature just off Dealey Plaza. Exactly right. Exactly. It's your classic red brick, six or so storey building, which you would see in every American city. Just a sort of standard warehouse stroke office building. Beyond Daly Plaza, there are three bridges. Is that right? That is the particular focus for security service anxiety. Yeah. They're worried about people

on the bridges. Exactly right. Exactly right. This is where they're heading towards. Down they go through the suburbs of North Dallas. At 12.06, Kennedy sees some children with placards saying, please stop and shake our hands. So of course he does. This is, again, standard. This is what people do. They'll stop randomly. He gets out, he shakes their hands, lovely, gets back in the car. Isn't there a nun at some point?

There's a second stop for more children who are standing with the nun. And of course, Kennedy is a good Catholic, loves the idea of stopping for the nun. This kind of thing always makes the Secret Service very jittery, but they just have to put up with it. You know, Kennedy insists upon it.

Now, by now, there have been very large crowds that have assembled in the centre along Main Street and Dealey Plaza. Of course, it's in this point where they are turning to go around this little square that the motorcade will slow and where people will get the best view. And so that's by the Texas School Book Depository and also a grassy section that one might almost describe as a knoll. You might describe it as a knoll. A grassy knoll.

Tom, maybe at this point I should say. So I visited this spot a couple of months ago and it is much smaller, I think, than you appreciate if you've just seen the footage. It is a very nondescript, perfectly pleasant, but it's a very nondescript point of patch of the city. The grassy knoll, I mean, we would call it a bank. It's just a little bank. It would take you seconds to walk from the top to the bottom, not minutes, but seconds. It is very, very small. You could walk around this area and see everything within five minutes. It is so small. Because the sense that you get often from reading it is that it's enormous

and it's full of trees in which people could hide. No, no, not at all. Not at all. So I think that's very important to make that clear. Even the road, it's not especially wide. I mean, there's multi-lanelane but you can stroll across within seconds this is a small patch of dallas now the crowds have already assembled and at 12 15 a man called arnold roland says to his wife so that's in dealey plaza yes he says to his wife hey would you like to see a secret service man because of course people are conscious the secret service is going to be there yeah and he indicates a man that he sees, he says, with a rifle on the sixth floor of the Texas Book Depository. And they watch this bloke for a little while and think, gosh, a Secret Service man.

I just mentioned that in passing. We'll come back to other sightings. By 1222, the motorcade has reached Main Street in downtown Dallas. The Kennedy's staff are delighted. The crowds are very thick, very warm. They're much more enthusiastic than the Kennedy people had feared. Kennedy's staff are pleased to see that both he and particularly Jackie, because they're always anxious about Jackie,

because of course she is not a politician. And she's been through this terrible trauma of losing her child. She's lost the child, but also she's a naturally quite shy person. So she's been advised to look away from her husband, hasn't she? So that people on both sides of the motorcade will have a look at one of the couple. Yeah, so that everybody will leave happy. Everyone will have seen the face of one of the couple. Exactly right.

Dallas police, by the way, at this point this point 12 22 are already quite jumpy because the crowds are so much bigger than they had anticipated and they are sort of radioing back and forth saying we need more people we need you know everybody on high alert all of this kind of thing we'll come back to this multiple times i'm sure in this discussion the idea that dallas police are kind of inept amateur amateurish, disengaged, all of these kinds of things is not right at all. They are very on edge. At about 12.25, another bystander, a chap called Howard Brennan, he looks up at the book depository building above Dealey Plaza, and he notices that there are three men on the fifth floor looking out of the window

or sort of lurking by the window. There are three African-American men who are staff of the book depository. He doesn't know that. And he sees that they're above them on the sixth floor. There is a man who appears to be sitting on the windowsill looking out. Two other men at about the same time who work at the nearby Dallas auditor's office. So they are called Ronald Fisher and Bob Edwards. They also see a man in the sixth floor window. They describe him as looking away from the motorcade and looking towards the under bus. So this is what, 1228, the motorcade is approaching Dealey Plaza. And so obviously, as the president comes, I mean, if you've assembled to see the

president, you're going to turn and look at the motorcade. So the fact that this guy is not- Is peculiar. Is peculiar. And worth noting. And that's why they notice. Otherwise they wouldn wouldn't notice they wouldn't think about it yeah 12 29 kennedy has probably a minute and a half to live 12 29 the motorcade reaches the end of main street the very first police motorbikes are beginning to turn right onto houston street and then they will turn left onto elm street immediately the crowds here are very thick and the motorcade is now moving very slowly. And is that because Kennedy wants to make sure that they see him?

Yes. It's a response to the enthusiasm. It's not because they're kind of starting to crowd the car or anything. No, no. I think it's sort of inherent in any motorcade that the greater the crowds, the slower you will go. The driver becomes more cautious, but also you want to milk the moment. So they approach the plaza.

So literally the last minute of Kennedy's life, he is buoyed by the love and enthusiasm of the crowds who come to meet him. Absolutely right. And it's at this point that Nellie Connolly leans back to Kennedy and says to him, Mr. President, they can't make you believe now that there aren't people in Dallas who love and appreciate you, can they? And Kennedy kind of grins and he says, no, they can't. So in other words, at this point, the trip could hardly have gone better. They are

delighted. So that's the last thing that he says, agreeing that he's loved by the people of Dallas. I think that's right. Yeah. You're very keen on this irony, Tom, I can tell. Well, I mean, it's not the great modern tragedy for nothing. No. So this point, 12.29, the police chief signals to the dispatcher at headquarters. He says, we are now approaching the underpass. And 15 seconds before 12.30, Kennedy's car makes the turn. It's turned right at the end of Main Street.

It now makes the turn left into Elm Street. So we'll go along the side of Deedee Plaza and within seconds they will be in the underpass. And it's at 12.30 exactly that the first shot rings around the square. Now, most people at that point think, a firecracker? What is it? They are stunned. Some people haven't even heard it. Some people have heard it and think it's a firework. Or a car backfiring or something.

Yeah. Several people immediately think it's a rifle shot. So Governor Connolly is one of them. He is a very keen hunter. He recognizes it as a rifle shot, and he shouts out, oh, no. At the sound of the shot, we know from the footage being taken by another bystander abraham sapruder on a kind of handheld film camera we know that both jackie kennedy and nelly connolly turn their heads to the right so that's towards the side of the square

that contains the book depository and of course the grassy knoll the slope multiple witnesses so for example a homeless man called james warrell a teenager called amos ewins a steam fitter called howard brennan who i've already mentioned testified that at this point they look up and they see a man at the window of the texas book depository with something that looks like a pipe or conceivably a rifle poking out of the window that their instinct was to look up and see it. But of course, as the sound of the firecracker echoes around the plaza with so many people, with so many cars and motorbikes, most people are confused initially about where the sound has come from.

But Dominic, just at this point to say that if it had been recognised that it was a rifle shot, and Connolly presumably does, so I'm wondering you know does he duck i can't remember i haven't looked at the zapruder film even if kennedy knew what it was he can't duck can he because he has this corset on yeah and so he is kind of frozen rigidly he's much much less mobile than anyone else he is he is you're right he's absolutely less mobile than anybody else but so little time goes by tom it's. I mean, I've never been in a motorcade, but you can easily imagine that there was a kind of sensory overload, thousands of people

screaming, the noise of the engines, the flags flying, the sense of excitement. And also disbelief, disbelief that it's happening because Connolly kind of, he says, oh no, doesn't he? Like he knows what's happening, but there isn't enough time to deal with the horror that he suddenly is faced with. And there must be the kind of everyone hoping that it is just a car backfiring or a firecracker. Well, it could easily be a car backfiring, right? I mean, it absolutely could easily be that.

Yeah. It is seven seconds then till the second shot rings out. And we can tell exactly what happens from the Zapruder film footage that so many people have seen elements of this in Oliver Stone's film JFK. And Dominic, just to emphasize how weird it is that this is shot, because of course, you know, this is long before iPhones or it's hard to shoot video footage if you're just a kind of normal citizen. And the fact that we have this video

footage, it's about 25 seconds, isn't it? I mean, it's amazing. Now, as we get into this discussion, the version of events that we will be giving you is the version that is pretty much endorsed by the Warren Commission as it were the official version. So those listeners who are more sceptical of the official version will want to take what follows with a pinch of salt, I suppose. But according to the official version, and according to, for example, Vincent Berglieri's book, it's at this point at 12 30 in seven seconds the second shot rings out kennedy as you can tell from the zapruder footage appears to be hit somewhere in the region of his right shoulder we see his elbows fly up in the footage in a very weird kind of you know it's not the sort of hollywood impact scene you'd expect his his arms kind of

go up and his elbows fly up he's clear distress you can see this in his face but of course tom as you've said the corset keeps him upright the back brace means that he does not slump and he's on this elevated seat yeah a millisecond or so after this john John Connolly, who is in sees this and takes him into her arms. And with this second shot, immediately the Secret Service know that this is not a firecracker. This is not a car backfiring. And it's at this point that Rufus Youngblood, LBJ's Secret Service man, throws LBJ onto the floor of his car and throws himself on top of him. The training kicks in. But this is all compressed in such little time because just a second and a half later, at 12.30 and eight and a half seconds,

there is a third shot. And this is the shot that hits Kennedy on the right-hand side of his head. His body at this point topples into Jackie. Part of his skull has been shot off. She is screaming, they have shot my husband. They clearly reflecting the existing fears that they had about their reception in Dallas. Part of his head has fallen into her hand or she has caught it or whatever. The front of the car, Bill Greer, the driver starts to accelerate away. He already knows what

has happened. Secret servicemen have jumped down from the cars behind and are running towards the the front of the car bill greer the driver starts to accelerate away he already knows what has happened secret servicemen have jumped down from the cars behind and are running towards the car one of them clint hill climbs onto the back of the car just a moment later jackie kennedy in her pink suit in the scene that everybody will have seen so many times she actually starts to almost get out of the car and climb backwards. Why she's doing that has always... Well, she's interviewed about that. She says she doesn't know. She has no recollection of it.

Yeah. It's as though she's looking at a totally different person. Exactly. I mean, Tom, 10 seconds ago, all was well. Of course. And they were making the turn. 10 seconds later, three shots have rung out and they're in total chaos and panic. Shock doesn't even begin to describe what she is going

through, but it is possible, some experts think, in her confusion, part of her husband's head has been shot away. And she's reaching for it. And she's trying to get it. She's trying to, yeah, pick up the missing bits of JFK's head. That would be your instinct, right? Right. If something happened to your family member, that would be your instinct. And the horror of it is, from this point on, she is cradling her husband's head in her arms and kind of holding it together with the feeling that if she doesn't, the skull will just disintegrate. Exactly right. Exactly. At this very moment, Howard Brennan, who's been watching the whole time, sees what he thinks is a man withdrawing a gun from the sixth floor window.

At the same moment, a press photographer called Bob Jackson, who is in the motorcade behind Kennedy, he says that he also sees a man withdrawing something from the sixth floor window of the Texas Book Depository. He actually shouts to his colleagues about it. And a TV cameraman called Malcolm Couch looks up and he says that he also sees the same thing. Now, of course, there are lots of different eyewitness reports about what went on at Dealey Plaza. I'm not saying these are the only eyewitnesses, but it is important to say that right from the beginning, there were people who said they had seen a gunman at the sixth floor window with a weapon. We're now nine seconds past 12.30 and the car is accelerating now into the underpass.

There is blood all over the back seat. Nellie Connolly and her husband, John Connolly, are kind of huddled down in the jump seats. All the radios are full of discord and screaming. And they're saying, get to Parkland Memorial Hospital. Parkland Memorial Hospital is about four miles from Dealey Plaza. It's the best hospital in the city. So by 12.31, they're out of the underpass and they're heading along the freeway, rushing towards Parkland Memorial Hospital. hospital as you say tom jackie is cradling her husband's body and she's crying and saying jack jack i love you and all this kind of thing so upsetting and just before we

end this episode it's at about this point 12 31 that with policemen now running around deely plaza in a complete and utter panic the the crowds are in panic, just utter chaos. One police motorbike officer runs into the book depository. This is a man called Marion Baker. And he sees the superintendent of the book depository, a chap called Roy Truly. And they go upstairs. And on the second floor, they bump into a man. And the policeman pulls a gun on him.

And the man looks utterly expressionless. He doesn't react in any way. He just seems almost in a daze. And Roy truly says, it's fine. I know him. He works here. And they let the man go. He walks past them.

He passed another supervisor. That man, Tom, is Lee Harvey Os oswald i think at that point we should have a pause in our narrative of this terrible day and when we come back we will go through the aftermath of the shooting of drama and trauma and days that have generated decades and decades worth of talk of conspiracy theories. So we will see you next time. But of course, Tom, if people are members of the Rest Is History Club, they can listen to all those episodes right away. And if you're not a member of the Rest Is History Club, you can sign up and get all those episodes right now at therestishistory.com.

In any case, we will see you next time for what happens next. Goodbye. Bye-bye. I'm Marina Hyde. And I'm Richard Osman. And together we host The Rest Is Entertainment. It's your weekly fix of entertainment news, reviews, splash of showbiz gossip,

and on our Q&A we pull back the curtain on entertainment and we tell you how it all works. We have just launched our Members Club. If you want ad-free listening, bonus episodes, and early access to live tickets, head to therestisentertainment.com. That's therestisentertainment.com.