The Rest Is History - 41. Persia

Episode Date: April 8, 2021

It is one of the truly great civilisations in world history and yet the story of Persia has faded from view in the west. Tom Holland and Dominic Sandbrook are joined by Professor Ali Ansari to discuss Persia's extraordinary influence on the modern world. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Thank you for listening to The Rest Is History. For weekly bonus episodes, ad-free listening, early access to series, and membership of our much-loved chat community, go to therestishistory.com and join the club. That is therestishistory.com. The education of a boy, wrote the Greek historian Herodotus about the Persians, will begin at the age of five and finish when he is 20. But in all that time, he will only ever be taught three things, how to ride a horse, how to fire a bow, and how to tell the truth. Well, the thesis of today's episode of the rest is history is that actually the persians taught a lot more than that actually in fact that huge amounts today even in the 21st century here in the west that we take for granted that it derives

ultimately from persia and i guess this is a thesis that may not seem immediately obvious because the persians don't really tend to occupy the kind of outsized role that other ancient civilizations do in the popular imagining civilizations like the Egyptians or the Greeks or the Romans. But speaking for myself, the more I've studied antiquity, written about it, thought about it, the more I've come to think that Persia is like some great kind of underground spring from which infinite numbers of rivers and streams, when you trace them back over the course of the centuries and the millennia, turn out to have sprung from. Dominic, as a modern historian,

I don't know whether you would accept that. I mean, I guess even the Iranian revolution of 1979 slightly plays that role, doesn't it? I think it absolutely does, Tom. I think actually when you... We in the West sort of tend to forget a little bit about Iran, and particularly we're fixated in the 20th century on Russia and China, I suppose, as the sort of antagonists of the West. But Iran, the Iranian revolution of 1979 seems to me one of the great foundational moments of the contemporary era. So it's the moment that, you know, the rise of the Ayatollahs, of radical Islam, and then the way in which that was exported. And Iran's sort of status as, you know, I mean,

Iran talks of the United States as the great Satan, but in many ways Iran has been the great Satan, hasn't it, for the secular West ever since 1979. Yeah, and I think that for lots of people, if you say Iran, you tend to think of women shrouded in black veils and old men with long beards wagging their fingers and saying, yeah, to America.

And perhaps that can obscure the way in which Persia is one of the truly great, rich civilizations of the world. Yeah, I buy that. I buy that. We have someone I'm sure will agree with that somebody actually knows about it absolutely ali ansari who is um a professor of iranian studies at saint andrews university no less author of very short introduction to iran ali thanks so much for coming

on um i guess that you would agree i mean i know you agree because we've talked about it this idea that essentially everything comes from Persia. Yes, everything comes from Persia. You would be happy to go along with that. Well, I mean, you know, I think that the, you know, the Iranians or the Persians, I mean, we can discuss about the terms that we use. I mean, basically think that their contribution to human civilization has largely been underrated and largely ignored. And precisely, I think, as both of you have said, because the prism of looking at Iran has been really via the Islamic Revolution of 1979, it's very much colored our understanding and it sort of permeates everything we think about Iran,

whereas in actual fact, of course, Iran or the Persians have so much more to offer, I would say. Can I ask you a question? Sure. I talked about Iran. Tom talked about Persia. That's right. Are they the same or are they two different things that happen to have been in the same geographical location or is there a continuity? No, there is a continuity.

And I think, you know, hopefully my great achievement, if I have one as an academic of Iran, is to finally convince people that actually Iran and Persia are indeed the same thing, certainly in the Western record. So when we're looking at Iran, Iran is the name actually given to the country and the territory, the political territory, or even the culture, if you will, by the indigenous peoples. Persia is really, as Tom will know, is a sort of Greek-Roman sort of rendition and the reflection of a particular people or tribe of Iran. So if you look at a hierarchy, I mean, there's rather a good quote ascribed or attributed to Darius the Great, who basically says that I am an Archimened by family, a Persian by tribe, and an Iranian in terms of my peoples. So there's a sort of a tripartite division, which works quite well. I mean, obviously, you know, what he means by those

things back 2,000, 2,500 years ago is obviously vastly different to what we might understand today but nonetheless it offers us an insight on how those on how those relate and i think far too many people uh western historians in some ways uh confuse the fact they sort of think that persia is a different place to iran and that iran sort of basically was invented in the 20th century. And most Iranians would be horrified at this. And most travellers, actually, most Western travellers who went to Iran in the modern period, by the modern period, Dominic, I mean, you know,

from the 17th century onwards. Yeah, yeah. In the 20th century, you know, all recognise this. I mean, they all say in their text, you know, the people who we call the Persians call themselves Iranians. So I think that's very clear. And I think for the avoidance of doubt, before we go forward to our top 10 hits, in a sense, I should also make clear that the term Iranian has nothing to do with the 19th century, you know, European racial connotation of Aryans and this sort of thing. I mean, it's basically a linguistic distinction,

a linguistic definition that comes out and is basically applied. I think, and Tom will probably correct me actually on this, but I think, you know, for many Iranians in a sort of historical basis, I mean, Iran simply meant as the Franks do, basically, you know, noble born, freeborn, this sort of thing. So it's nothing,'s it's it's really little more than that um well ali on the topic of of how exactly we define iran or persia um could i um quote something from that great scholar of iran ben affleck um tom you found your level ben and ben says uh persia is very different from the arab middle east in terms of architecture and language. Even though we think of them as one big Middle Eastern area, in truth, Persia is quite distinct. What a great geopolitical mind.

But let's just tease that out because, of course, Persia, Iran, whatever you want to call it, is this great upland plateau. That's right. You've got the Zagros Mountains and then you go down the Zagros Mountains, you're into the kind of the flatlands of Iraq, of Mesopotamia. Historically, what's the relationship been between Persia and the rest of the Near East? Well, I mean, historically, I mean, if you look at the Iranians or the Iranian peoples, as we describe as a sort of a, let's take them as a linguistic grouping. I mean, obviously, they have a distinct Iranian language affiliated to an Indo-European heritage, which means that actually the language, the Persian language, not to confuse matters, but the Persian language spoken by the Iranians is basically much closer

to the European languages that we speak. And you see that in sort of mother, father, you know, brother, ma, dar, ped, dar, bar, ordar, this sort of thing. So it's actually quite interesting in terms of that linguistic distinction. And of course, the Iranians occupying and having three sort of major imperial empires prior to the rise of the Arab Muslim caliphates of the 7th century meant that they had a certain presence in the Middle East, I have to say, long before the Arabs. So just give out those three empires. Just give us a span of the ancient history. So basically, if you look at, to give us some sort of chronological parameters, we have the first Persian empire, which actually is the empire that most people in the West would be familiar with, which is the Archaemenid Persian empire, which is the one that covers

everything from Greece over to the Indus and down to Egypt and so on and so forth. The ones that lose at marathon. Well, yeah, but we're not Thermopylae, if I may say so. Yes, that's Cyrus the Great, Darius, Xerxes. Yeah, Xerxes, all the people that we know from our biblical and classical experiences. And we'll talk a little bit more about them, I'm sure, afterwards. And, of course, the quote you gave from Herodotus. I mean, I should remind us, of course,

Herodotus is technically a Persian subject, isn't he, Tom? So, I mean, he's a bit of a renegade, but he's, you know, he's the father of modern history. Not modern, but the father of history. So that's the first empire that's the empire that lasts for about 200 years and is basically overthrown by alexander the great and we can you know also talk a little bit about alexander's legacy in the persian world not all positive you won't be surprised to know and then subsequent to a sort of a hellenic interlude you

then get the rise of a new dynasty which in the western uh lingo we know as the Parthians. And the Parthians are actually the longest lasting of the dynasties, quite decentralized, again, occupying much of the Iranian plateau. And it's with the Parthians that you get the first contest with the Romans and the Roman Republic, and then the Roman Empire, obviously, subsequently. The Parthians last from about 250 BC to around 250 AD. And then they are subsequently succeeded by probably the most influential of the pre-Islamic Persian empires, certainly as far as Iran is concerned, and that is the Sasanians. And the Sasanian dynasty claims a much longer

heritage on the plateau, and lasts really then until the mid-7th century, until the overthrow by the Arab Muslim armies. But it's the Sasanians that really set the scene far more than the previous dynasties in actual fact. They're the ones that compile a sort of historical record. They're the ones that actually give the name Iran to that political territory. And if I was to say my first, first, if I can put it that way, is that, you know, there is a suggestion, which I'm sort of happy to accept, really, not entirely uncritically, but certainly accept, is that, you know, Iran is one of the, if not the first, territorially defined political unit that has a degree of continuity to it from the period of antiquity

to the present. So the Iran that is set up by the Sasanians, the empire of Iran, is basically, you know, the sort of cultural territory, if not entirely the political territory, because it was bigger, it is bigger, obviously, than what we have today, that we find in modern Iran. So Iran is the first country? Well, I mean, that would be the claim. I mean, obviously, when we get into it, you know, Iran, as far as the Iranians are concerned in historical places, is the first kingdom. I mean, it's the first dominion of man over nature. So but that's largely, you know, obviously part of the mythical heritage. But it's one that Iranian nationalists are very, very keen to promote. Some of the some of the some of the chronology goes really quite far back and wholly unrealistic.

But I'm happy to sort of chat, though. You know, they say it's not just two and a half thousand years. I mean, let's get it back further. You can sit down with a number of Iranians, you know, and we can extend back. There was quite a famous account, actually, in the early 20th century when a nationalist historographer, which I always find quite entertaining, calculated the length of the kingdom of Iran, going back through the mythical great epic poem of Iran, the Book of Kings. And he calculated that the length of the kingdom could be traced back 10 billion years.

And obviously someone else pointed out this predated the creation of the world. So these sort of things. That puts the Romans in the world. You know, so these are things. That puts the Romans in their place. I know, that's right. So, I mean, if you accept that, then everything does begin in Iran, obviously. But Ali, obviously, what complicates the picture in terms of the continuity? Because clearly there is this incredible sense of continuity. The last Shah of Iran famously had great celebrations at Persepolis, the great Kaimanid capital.

And he jetted over cooks from Paris and a great extravaganza. And then, of course, we know what happened to him. And I suppose what complicates this picture of continuity is that the Sasanian Empire in the 7th century collapses before the Arabs. That's right. And they introduce Islam. And to what extent is Islam a radical rupture? And to what extent does Iranian culture come to an accommodation with Islam? And there is a genuine sense of continuity.

Well, I mean, my favorite phrase in all this and always to disarm my Arab colleagues is to say, you know, captive Persia took prisoner her conquerors. I've never actually known who actually said that first, but I'd like to sort of lay claim to it. But it's essentially this notion that there have been a series of ruptures in Iranian history, clearly from Alexander the Great all the way through, and you get the Arabs are obviously in the Muslim conquest is a very serious, almost, you know, psychological, ideological rupture, obviously, and bringing a new religion, a new calendar, so on and so forth. But then also, you have the Mongol invasions of the 13th century that are particularly devastating on a socio-economic level. But in all three cases, I mean, you find this sort of cultural confidence of the Persians, and I Arabs, what you find is that the Iranians basically take Islam

and turn it from what is essentially an Arab religion into a global universal religion in which, you know, non-Arabs are equally valid. And therefore, Persians... So, Ali, what you're saying is Islam is actually Persian. Well, there are some... I think that would be pushing it a bit, to be perfectly honest. There are a number of people in Iran who would certainly claim that the Islam that you see today in terms of a global universalist religion is really something which has been de-Arabized. Impersionized. I mean, to some extent. I mean, why quibble? But that's certainly one of the views. I mean, I wouldn't necessarily, I have to say, subscribe to that. But however, it's obviously a religion adhered by all. And that's the argument. Of course, you see that with Shiaism as well and

other things. But you see it also with the Mongols. Iran is the only part of the Mongol Empire that basically absorbed the Mongols within Persian culture. In China, they expelled the Mongols, you see, but the Iranians somehow just absorbed them. And you still see lots of traces of the Mongol and Turkic conquest in Iran. Ali, you've given us this huge list of things that you think that Persia basically invented, for which we should be getting down on our knees and groveling before the Persians. I wouldn't go that far. We're very magnanimous.

Frustrating ourselves before the Great Queen. Frustrating ourselves, yes, of course. I wouldn't want you to, I wouldn't want you, I just think that, you know, there are a number of, I mean, the one thing which I think you should acknowledge is that basically, you know, Persia is the midwife to the West, isn't it? I mean, there would be no West without the Persians. Okay. So, Ali, on that theme, you've prepared a list of, what, of top ten things that the Persians have given the world? I mean, I have to say I felt very restricted by ten, but let's keep going.

There look to me to be more than ten on this list, Tom. Yeah, because there's certain subsets, aren't there, really? Basically, Ali has come prepared for ten podcasts. Okay. Well, how long have we got? We've got, what, five minutes left? Ten minutes, I guess, for this half? We're going to rattle these off. Right. So let's kick off. okay well we how long we got we got what five minutes left ten minutes i guess rattle these off right so so let's kick off what's what's your first selection well i mean i i think

we can i think we can start with that sort of issue of of persia being the first kingdom and and uh basically the the as as and i will i will i will elicit here the support of that great, great German philosopher Hegel to remind us that history begins with the Persians. So our understanding of history as a progressive movement, in a sense, of enlightenment, if you will, really begins with the Persians. Now, like all good historiography, we don't like to quote the next clause that Hegel puts out, that it starts with the Persians. Now, like all good historiography, we don't like to quote the next clause that Hegel puts out that, you know, it starts with the Persians and then left them. I wouldn't want to, you know, use his next phrase. Let's stick with the first part. But I think,

you know, this idea of Iran as the first kingdom, the first dominion of man over nature, the first place where history begins effectively. And, you know, as I was saying to Dominic earlier, this territorially delimited state, which is also the midwife, in a sense, in an ancient sense, to that concept of the West. So it's interesting, as you both said, you know, we don't have this notion of Persia as a great civilization in the same way as we have with the Romans and the Greeks and even the Babylonians or Egyptians to be honest but uh nonetheless we are there as best supporting actor and I would like to move us from best supporting actor really to center stage I think we should be getting the best actor award frankly Ali did that all kick off with um Cyrus the Great was he the person who

basically created Persia uh yes depending who you talk to I mean i yes i mean i think in in in the popular understanding the father of the nation as uh as was noted is basically uh is cyrus the great who who basically binds the medes and the persians together into the first of these iranian empires and the the the uh this persian empire from you know 559 bc to when would it be, Tom? 333 BC, something like that. That's the first of the Persian empires, which basically establishes, and I, you know, I would add to that, the first universal empire. Yeah. So I completely agree about the idea that the Persians are the first people who formulate their imperial rule as something universal. That's right.

And indeed moral, that it reflects kind of the patterning of the universe. Absolutely. Absolutely. universal that's right and indeed moral that it reflects the kind of patterning of the universe but just slightly to play devil's advocate so sires the great he his fame is is immense and he's famous because he is hugely praised by two people who he conquers one of them the greeks and the greeks think he's the model of of a great man that's right and the other course the jews and the jews and the by he's he's the mess. He's the anointed one praised as such by Isaiah. But all we really have from the Persians is kind of tomb inscriptions. So in what sense are the Persians inventing history when they're not actually writing it down in the way that the Greeks and the Jews are? Well, that's a very, yeah, that's a very interesting point you've made there, Tom. I think that the main thing is that we have to understand

is that one of the contributions to history that I think the Persians make is if you understand the way in which history is written. I mean, one of the things that, you know, are sort of mythological narratives and what we might call historical narratives. The Iranians, certainly after the Hellenic period and into the Parthians and the Sasanian period, tend to sort of write a history that is largely mythologically based. I mean, they derive a mythological narrative of their descent. Now, the interesting thing with that is that certainly the Archimedes tend to sort of get erased from that history in a very detailed sense. But they do exist

in the mythological narratives. They are there. And the figure of Kurosh, which is the Persian for Cyrus, does appear in a number of these mythological narratives. He is, however, somewhat demoted in that narrative under the sort of the world kings that exist. So there is a historical narrative. It's just not a historical narrative that we would recognise, but it's a very profound historical narrative that is more mythological in a sense in its construction and full of folklore than the history, you know,

the history we would have in terms of the discipline that we would understand it and of of the discipline that we would understand it and you we collectively would understand it but i think it's just a different type of history if i can put it that way i'm trying hard but uh hopefully you will ali take us through some of the things on your list um uh the things that you think the persians well i mean i i think there are a number of things that i've sort of tried to divide so if we look at um uh i've sort of dealt with the i suppose the political side, I think there are a number of things that I've sort of tried to divide. So if we look at, I've sort of dealt with the, I suppose, the political side of it. But there are other things that I think are quite important.

Some of the contributions to religion. I mean, we mentioned about the Persian contributions to Islam, obviously. But I think the Persian contributions to religion and religious thought have been pretty impressive. Certainly through Zoroastrianism. And Zoroastrianism was the pre-Islamic religion of Persia or Iran. And Zoroastrianism provided a number of ideas. I know I'm going to get some pushback from Tom, but let's try it. No, you're not. I completely agree. I completely agree. You know, in terms of, I mean, some fairly sort of simple things, well, things that we take for

granted today, of course, which just shows how effective it's been. This notion of the end of times, for instance, and a spiritual rede redeemer these are quite Zoroastrian you know and then they're sort of bound in with that sort of Judaic heritage that sort of uh then uh come come through in Christianity yeah because we should say that the the the people of Judah of Jerusalem get taken by the Babylonians to Babylon by the rivers of Babylon weeping so the Jews are in the Jews are in captivity in Babylon and then basically released. And then Cyrus lets them come back.

Yes, yes. Which is why the Jews love the Persians. Do they come back with Persian ideas then? Is that basically the argument? Yes, yes, that's the idea. That's the idea. So Judaism is Persian? No, no, I mean, let's not exaggerate

to diminish the effectiveness of this argument. I mean, because you were... I'm a stranger to that tactic. No, don't do that. No, because I mean, I think the interesting thing is, if you look at two biblical texts, I think it's the book of Daniel and the book of Revelation. They carry some fairly strong sort of Zoroastrian tropes and ideas in there. I mean,

obviously, these are things that scholars far brighter than me will be dissecting and interrogating looking at these texts. But if you look at the, once the Jews returned from the Babylonian captivity, and of course, the main point is, is a lot of them didn't, a lot of them stayed in Mesopotamia, which is the heartland of the sort of Persian Empire, and imbued a lot of these ideas and sort of produced them. But you can see Zoroastrian ideas coming through. And there's even parts of the text where they sort of say there are words that are being used that are clearly Persian. But the whole notion, for instance, of there's a great concept in Zoroastrian eschatology of a sort of a dragon king. To the end of days.

Yes, in the end of days. And although the end of days has a certain circularity to it, but nonetheless, yes, sort of end of days, a sort of great dragon king that is then overthrown and whatever, and then you have peace and justice, as one might hope. And the dragon king, in the way it's described in Zoroastrian texts, has strong similarities, I should say, with the beast in the Book of Revelation. So it's quite interesting.

Now, again, none of these are definitive, but in what would be an ancient history, really, or any history for that matter. But nonetheless, I think it does make for quite a strong case that there's a huge... I mean, one of the things that I think the Persians have been extremely good at exporting, if I may say so, is religion and religious ideas. And the whole idea of the world being divided, I mean, Herodotus was saying that the Persians get taught truth and that, of course, the counterpoint to that is the lie.

The lie, yes, absolutely. And the sense of the world divided into good and evil and light and darkness is obviously hugely strong. So I think we could chalk up that the persians have invented empire history um judaism christianity and islam so that's not bad so i think we should probably i'm not i'm not gonna go i'm not gonna get into judaism christianity islam okay they made significant contribution okay it's too late it's too late it's done yeah i hear you i hear you so hear you. So let's leave it at that and we'll take a break. And when we come back, you'll have some more, I think possibly including gardening.

So let's see you then. I'm Marina Hyde. And I'm Richard Osman. And together we host The Rest Is Entertainment. It's your weekly fix of entertainment news, reviews, splash of showbiz gossip. And on our Q&A, we pull back the curtain on entertainment and we tell you how it all works. We have just launched our Members Club. If you want ad-free listening, bonus episodes and early access to live tickets, head to therestisentertainment.com. That's therestisentertainment.com.

Hello, welcome back to The Rest Is History. With me is dominic of course and ali ansari who is talking us through basically why the persians have invented everything um ali is is giving us his list top 10 things that the persians have given the world um we've already had empire and we've had religion um so ali what what's next on your list of top 10? Well, the other thing I think is very important is that, you know, the Persians invented paradise. But I suppose it needs a bit of qualification here. Really, the idea of a walled garden, a walled garden that's a planned, you know, and structured garden. This is something that's very closely associated, actually, with the figure of Cyrus the Great, who archaeologists have discovered had a rather spectacular sort of walled garden at his capital in Pasadagai in southern Iran.

And, of course, this Persian affection, shall we say, for the natural world. I'm going to make a claim here, actually, that they're really the original environmentalists, by the way. So you can see where I'm going. You know, the Green Party really did start in Iran. But this sort of affection for the natural world, gardens, the sort of the order and beauty of the natural world, I think is something that's very closely associated with the Persians throughout history, actually. and beauty of the natural world, I think is something that's very closely associated with

the Persians throughout history, actually. And one that, you know, you even find, you know, European commentators and others, you know, commenting on it. There's a lovely, lovely narrative that I've read, which actually, I believe comes from one of the, I think it comes from Xenophon, actually, but Tom, again, you can uh where um a spartan king goes to visit saris the younger in his in his uh in his uh satrapal his governor's palace in in sardis and um comments very uh generously about the splendid nature of his garden and says you know you must congratulate your slaves for having you know done so much work much work. And of course, Cyrus the Younger laughs and rather, he says, no, no, you know, I've done this by my own hand.

And the Spartan king is rather shocked at this, that he should sully his own hands by getting in the dirt and all this. But Cyrus says that, this is Cyrus the Younger, I should stress. Cyrus the Younger says, you know, I always feel it very important that until one has labored with one's own hands, one should not sit down for a meal, you know, and that sort of thing. I mean, it's this sort of idea that let's get out there and let's have a bit of, you know.

I think it's one of the, yeah, one of the most wonderful things about the Persian Empire is the way the kings are portrayed as great gardeners. Yes. That's the role they play. And I think it meant that one of the ways in which Xerxes is encouraged to invade Greece is they say, well, you know, there's some amazing trees and plants there that you won't have. You know, it's kind of like going to a garden centre or something. Yeah. I mean, I'd like to go and

collect some more trees for my garden back in Persepolis. Ali, can I jump in as somebody who's never been to Iran? So I think probably a lot of our listeners won't have been to Iran either. So my perception, which may be completely and utterly false, is that Iran, Tom talked about as a plateau, is that it's quite a sort of dusty and hot place. So is the paradise, the kind of walled garden, is that a refuge from the heat? Does it have to be created? Or am I completely wrong? And is Persia actually much greener and more verdant? Well, I mean, it's a good question. Because of course, in the ancient period, the argument is, is that southern Iran was much more verdant than we have today. But it's certainly true. I think your central point is quite true that it was because of the sparseness of the landscape in

some ways that the Iranians developed vast irrigation networks and plans for, you know, water supply. I mean, they were quite skilled at that, and therefore developed, I suppose, these walled gardens as a refuge. Now, that's not to say that the plateau itself i mean let's not forget because there is this sort of you know how should we say rather orientalist view of the middle east as all being deserts and camels um there are deserts in iran obviously but there are also jungles in iran i mean if you go up to the caspian and the northern areas it's very verdant so it's uh you know there's a whole range of different sort of climate types. But certainly in the south, and I think this sort of idea,

the affection for a garden was precisely, as you say it, that, you know, it's a way of harnessing nature to provide a refuge, really, in an otherwise rather sort of bleak landscape in some ways. And those gardens, I mean, I remember going to esfahan and going to a garden there and and it was kind of quite hot you went into the garden and it was cool there were fountains and the synthesis of the the the vegetation with the architecture was so breathtakingly beautiful and again and again i kept going around ir thinking, you know, these places are as beautiful as any I've ever seen. And you can see why the idea of that these walled gardens are the kind of places where God would have walked and talked to man.

You can entirely see where it would have come from. But you can see also this sort of notion of the Garden of Eden, you see, of course. I mean, it's this idea of a walled garden and a and as a paradise on earth a reflection of that and and you're quite right you know the way it's been designed is to you know bring a measure of uh comfort coolness with the water the water sort of features a very very deliberate um uh you know in a way to to to to give you that sense of a sort of a little refuge away from the uh the troubles of the world so ali should we should we well as paradise, should we clock up gardening? Yes, I think so.

I think, and really the origins of environmental thinking, I think, would be good. Yeah, Dominic, you happy with that? Yeah, I'm very happy with that. I buy that. Yeah, okay. I like it. Okay, we'll bung them in.

I think that's important. And it's the word paradise from a Persian word or a Greek word. It is, yes. It's a Persian word. Right, and the Greeks then took it. Did they? And then, is that right. Right, and the Greeks then took it. Is that right, Tom, that the Greeks took it and that's how we get it? Okay, interesting.

Go on, Ali, give us some more. So I thought we might move to a little bit of leisure and sport now because that would be quite interesting. Now, I would like to think that the Persians invented cricket, but I have alas no evidence uh of this um and there are sort of uh arguments about polo of course i mean polo is a very prominent you know because of the sort of the the the training it gives but the one right that riding horses isn't it yeah well let's just say horses horses are a big deal for the persians yes yes that's right i

mean the horses are a big deal but i i wouldn't want you know there are areas where even i won't tread you know which is the idea that did the did the persians uh invent the stirrup for instance i mean it's a very very controversial debate and uh yes i mean i know tom would be quite shocked by this uh so would the franks and also all the you know the uh the carolingians however um there is a suggestion there has been, but I, I don't want to go there because as, as Tom's reaction indicates, it would get me into a lot of trouble. However, um,

I'm open to all kinds of farfetched series. You keep, you keep them firing. You see one of, one of, one of the, one of the great, you know,

the Sasanian and the Parthians developed very, uh, heavily armored, uh, mounted, what we would turn knights. Yes. You know, Dominic would like this. Dominic, you who fan aren't you because they look like cybermen they look like cybermen interesting cataphracts and the argument is is how did these these heavily armored knights with

their lances as it happens in many cases how did they sit upright on their horses yeah i mean in the sense of their their charging you You see these wonderful sort of freezes in southern Iran of knights sort of basically jousting at each other. Now, the argument is, and I've talked to a number

of colleagues about this, they are, but, you know, they have these very sort of rigid saddles in which they sat in. But, you know, there's an argument that actually the stirrup

came from Central Asia through into Iran and the Iranians sort of basically operationalised it. So stirrups, knights, tournaments. Knights, knights, chivalry.

I mean, chivalry, I'd like to, you know, let's get into all that. I think that's quite important. I think it's very, very underrated in the West because we talk about the chanson de Roland and all this sort of stuff. But, you know, actually the epic poetry, knightly, courtly love, all this sort of stuff. I mean, there's a lot of this in Persian epic poetry. And I think that.

But in other things, I think also the Iranians are basically the founders of backgammon. Now you'll hear people say that Iranians are the founders of chess and a lot of the terms for chess come from- Chess came from India though, didn't it? It did come from India. You're absolutely right.

And I want to reveal my magnanimity and real impartiality there. You're giving India something. By not claiming chess, I'm sure a lot of my Iranian colleagues will berate me for that. I want to reveal my magnanimity and real impartiality there. You're giving Indians something. By not claiming chess, I'm sure a lot of my Iranian colleagues will berate me for that. But, I mean, what I would say is the Iranians probably refined the rules and made it workable. But nonetheless, I don't think we can claim that. But backgammon, I think we can claim. Backgammon, we can claim.

And in terms of leisure and sort of food food stuffs i am going to make a bid for spaghetti now i did not see that coming yeah goodness well any italian listeners out there well i mean the argument is that uh you know marco polo never really got to china and uh he picked up a lot of these sort of ideas, you know, that these noodles, in a sense, had come during the Mongol Empire, you know, through to the Iranians refined it, as we always do, by the way, always make things better, by and large. And then he took that spaghetti back with him to Northern Italy when he returned. So there's an interesting argument, and I'm quite taken by that one. When you say it's an interesting argument, are you saying that this might conceivably be true? say when you say it's an interesting argument yeah are you

saying that this might conceivably be true or are you saying it's true i i'm saying on spaghetti it's it's one that i would like to claim uh i think there are strong there are strong there are well i mean you know where i get into trouble in where is when we start claiming things like hummus and stuff which we can't because our lebanese friends get very upset and uh so you know but spaghetti i think you know there's a pretty strong there's a strong ali can i take you back for one second from spaghetti back to the knights yeah sure now i know we're in the middle of your top 10 so i don't want to delay you too long say are you able in about one sentence if the persians were so great and they had these

fantastic saddles and whatnot why did did they lose to Alexander the Great? Ah, well, there's two things there. Two sentences only? Yeah. Those knights didn't develop until after Alexander the Great, one. Okay. But two, most of the reason why Iranian states collapse is political rather than military, very simply. It's basically divisions of command.

They all busy backstabbing each other. I mean, the other thing that we do very well in Iran is decadence. I actually didn't add that in the list. But decadence is actually pretty good. I mean, we- That's a great thing to be good at, isn't it? I mean, decadence and- If I want to be known for anything, it's decadence and depravity.

Of course, I mean, you know, Gibbon has this wonderful notion about, you know, because they struggled to find how to categorise the Persians, you know, they didn't want to put them in the category of barbarians. So they said, well, they're civilised, really, and they're part of the civilised world. And you see that a lot in 18th century European depictions. But Gibbon sort of basically develops this notion that the reason why the Persians aren't doing as well as they might be doing is because actually they've become over-civilised. They've done civilisation to the nth degree and therefore become decadent. And I think that's great. That's a sort of Orientalist argument, isn't it?

They're a feat and they're drinking sherbet and strolling in their paradise gardens. It is, yes. They do that. But it's also quite a nice idea that, you know, we're so good at civilisation, we've just overdone it. You're too good. You're too good. On the topic of being too good at civilization we just overdone it you're too good you're too good on the topic of being too good at civilization give us give us some more we're running out of time so sorry so uh the couple of other things that i would say uh there's and this is tied with the cavalry notion is the high heel which actually was news to me but it's quite that's pretty

decadent there's a couple of fashion things i would say in the 17th century if you look at the the the changes in fashion in europe between the early and the later part of the 17th century there is this this this is the point when early modern european travelers were going to iran much more often and they come back with fashion tips and a number of them if you see you know charles ii and the others all wear these rather extravagant high heels um the reason for the high heels was basically to be able to sort of sit comfortably in the saddle with the stirrup, you see. So you have these sort of bits of heels. So not to look taller?

Not to look taller, interestingly enough. We thought it was, actually. You're quite right, because we had discussed this about all these, you know, Persians with high heels to look very tall. The other one, which, a fashion item, which I think, which I can trace fairly securely to John Evelyn's diaries, actually, in the 17th century, is the adoption of the Persian coat in the 17th century,

which was taken in by, yes, which was absorbed by Louis XIV's court and then, of course, adopted by other courts in Europe. And so that's ultimately the jacket, the kind of jacket you wear with the suit to this day. So basically, Persian... A sort of jacket with lapels. So that is claimed to be the Persian coat.

So the Persians have invented the suit. I'm sure my, well, I mean, the trouser. The trouser is a Persian item of clothing. Yes, of course. I mean, the Greeks find that hilarious, don't they? I mean, look at those Romans in their, you know, lovely outfits, you know, very impressive. But that's the brilliant thing about the Greeks, isn't it?

That they thought the Persians were hilariously effeminate because they wore trousers rather than skirts. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, that's quite interesting. So these sort of items of clothing that obviously the Europeans have taken and made into their own. Frankly, I think you should be very grateful. So when you walk down the street in St. Andrews and you see people wearing coats and trousers, do you feel sort of triggered by their cultural appropriation of your... You know, as I said, I think the Persians are very giving people.

We think great. I just think that it would be nicer if they showed a bit more gratitude, really. Okay. That's very magnanimous of you. So, Ali, did you ever watch Goodness Gracious Me? I didn't. Well, there was a sketch with the...

There was a kind of Indian father talk to his son and everything's Indian. So anything that comes on the telly or anything, it's always Indian. And on the, we've talked about India in relation to chess. Could I float another topic, perhaps to add to the top 10, which is the British Raj.

The British Raj is actually hugely Persian. Because one of the things, one I was researching for Persian Father, the book I wrote about the Persian wars with Greece. Good plug. Very good plug. Came across it. Sip that one in very, very delicately. Was reading about Lord Curzon.

Yes. Who went on a trip to Persia. That's right. And went to Persepolis, admired it hugely. And left his graffiti on there. Yes, he left his mark. Yes, as grand British lords tend to do. In due course, he then became Viceroy of India

and was a tremendous enthusiast for kind of Persian-style court flummery. So do you think there's a case for saying that actually, you know, the British like to think that they were, you know, they were all learning Greek in their boarding schools and things, but actually the British in India were much more Persian than they were Greek? And yes, and I'm very, very pleased you said that actually, Tom, because there's a couple of things I will outline here on the contribution of British India, which basically, as you can quite rightly say, they take over the administration from the Mughal Empire. The Mughal Empire, the administration of the Mughal Empire is basically based on Persian models. And it's actually the language is Persian. If you go out in the Indian civil service, at least till 1857, you have to learn Persian.

Persian is the language of administration. It's very striking, actually. And it, you know, it hints also as to why Britain and Iran have such an interesting relationship, I should say, because in many ways, Britain was in charge for 100 years or so of at least one half of the Persianate world, if I can put it that way. Now, we derive a lot of things. And I would like to make a claim.

You've tipped me off here, I'm afraid. I'm going to go for it now. I'm going to say that the modern civil service, as derived from the Indian civil service, has really borrowed a lot of its ideas and attitudes from the old traditional Persian administration. And one of my favorite terms in all this is the idea of purdah. You know, when we go in politics, all this is the idea of purdah. You know, when we go in politics, the civil service go purdah. Well, purdah is really a Persian word, pardir, which means curtain, okay, or the veil. So basically, when elections start, the civil

service goes behind the veil, it goes into purdah. And this is a term directly derived, obviously, from the experience in British India and the Persian world. So I would agree with you. I mean, I think there's a strong case to be made that many of these ideas of the civil service and its administration that they developed as part of the East India Company, obviously, and then driven in and derived in the 19th century into the British Civil Service. I think there's a case to be made there as well. I mean, particularly given my current role. So the British Civil Service is Persian as well? Well, it's got deep roots there, I think. I mean, the Persian vizierate is pretty clear. I mean, there's strong humanist tradition. So, Tom, it's pretty clear now why they lost to Alexander the Great, right? I mean, they're a load of bureaucrats,

bureaucrats eating spaghetti in gardens with high heels. Well, as Ali said, decadent. That's a rather scathing way to look at it. I just think that, you know, the Persians were thinking, oh my God, here come these Western barbarians. I mean, what the hell are we going to do? Let's make them Persian. I mean, that's what they did.

And it kind of worked. So Ali, I think we've almost run out. And of course, time is a Persian idea as well, isn't it? Yeah, unfortunately, time. Yes, beginning and end. That's a very personal idea. But since we invented time, we should be able to make it more flexible, surely. I mean, we have some prior, you know.

I didn't mention science, which I'm sorry to say is, but there are elements of science and astronomy that would be quite important. But, you know, there you are. I think you've had gardening in high heels. You don't need science as well. That's overreaching there but is there any any last addition to that list before we before we reach the end times um i i as i said i would only say things like you know element algebra you know yeah okay yeah as algebra person rather than arabic yes yes because i mean

the chap who was really persian i mean, that's not, you know. I mean, he might have written in Arabic, but that's... Right, that doesn't sound immensely convincing to me, but I'll let it go. Well, Ali, thank you. Thank you so much. That's fantastic. I think you've conclusively proved to everyone's satisfaction

that everything is Persian. And on that that note what else is there to say except thank you very much thank you ali thank you thanks for listening to the rest Is History. For bonus episodes, early access, ad-free listening, and access to our chat community, please sign up at restishistorypod.com. That's restishistorypod.com.