The Rest Is History - 431. Titanic: Nightmare at Midnight (Part 5)

Episode Date: March 19, 2024

“A story of horror unparalleled in the annals of the Sea.” On the 14th of April 1912, Titanic, a floating palace sailing through the North Atlantic, found itself hurtling towards a formidable iceberg. Contrary to the panicked reactions of her crew who, fatefully, pulled the hulking vessel to starboard, the ship's passengers slept, laughed and played on, unaware of the danger ahead. Then came a terrible grinding sound, as the side of the ship grated against the iceberg, followed by a long, dead silence. At 12.15am a distress call went out, and the order went out to begin filling the lifeboats, women and children first. But, with far fewer lifeboats than passengers, who would be allowed to board them, and who would be left behind? What leverage did gender, class, and age provide when so many lives hung in the balance? By 1.55am, the lifeboats were scarce, and the panic of those still aboard the ship spiralled out of control, as the Titanic entered her death throes…  Join Tom and Dominic as they discuss Titanic’s collision with the iceberg, the reactions of her doomed passengers and crew, and the stories of courage, incompetence, and tragedy. *The Rest Is History LIVE in 2024* Tom and Dominic are back onstage this summer, at Hampton Court Palace in London!  Buy your tickets here: therestishistory.com Twitter: @TheRestHistory @holland_tom @dcsandbrook Producer: Theo Young-Smith Assistant Producer: Tabby Syrett Executive Producers: Jack Davenport + Tony Pastor Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Thank you for listening to The Rest Is History. For weekly bonus episodes, ad-free listening, early access to series, and membership of our much-loved chat community, go to therestishistory.com and join the club. That is therestishistory.com. A great liner, stealing through the vast loneliness of the Atlantic, the sky jewelled with myriads of stars overhead, and a thin little wind blowing cold and even colder straight from the frozen ice fields, tapping its warning of approaching danger on the cosily shuttered portholes of the cabins, causing the lookout man to strain his eyes anxiously into the gloom. Inside this floating palace, warmth, lights and music, the flutter of cards, the hum of voices, the gay lilt of a German waltz, the unheeding sounds of a small world bent on pleasure then disaster swift and overwhelming

turning all into darkness and chaos the laughing voices changed into shuddering wails of despair a story of horror unparalleled in the annals of the sea. So that Dominic was lingerie magnate Lucy Lady Duff Gordon writing in 1932. So that's 20 years after the disaster that was the sinking of the Titanic. She obviously survived or else she wouldn't have been writing that in circumstances that we will be exploring in today's episode, which is looking at the incredible drama of how the Titanic came to sink. And I use the word drama advisedly because it's often been pointed out that the length of time it took from the hitting of the iceberg to the final plunging of the Titanic down to the bottom of the Atlantic was about two hours and 40 minutes, which is the average time

of a West End play. So it's kind of like a performance at the theatre. It's been retold many, many times. It has that quality of an awful drama, doesn't it? It absolutely does. I think partly because, as with many times when you go to the theatre, you know the ending. So there can be few people who approach this story without, you know,

knowing what's going to happen, without knowing that the Titanic is going to sink. But I think it means that any narrative of it, as is no different, is charged with a kind of dramatic irony from the beginning, that it's the story of a lot of people who think everything is going to be all right, who have no idea what is coming. I mean, that's true to some degree of all history. Well, more than all right.

I mean, they think it's heaven, don't they? I mean, as in that passage we just read, it's... Yes. Yeah, absolutely. German waltzes and cards and all kinds of things. The last episode where we were talking about the passengers on the last night of their voyage, we had a quotation from a guy called Jack Thayer who said, it was a night when you felt wonderful to be alive

because the sailing conditions have been so good because they're in this great floating palace. He had a quotation from a guy called Jack Thayer who said, it was a night when you felt wonderful to be alive. Yeah. Because the sailing conditions have been so good because they're in this great floating palace. Stars ablaze overhead. And the calmness of the conditions is something that people should absolutely bear in mind. That it's very, very cold and very, very calm. Yeah. So in the last episode, the Titanic plunging towards an iceberg basically swerves and that swerve is fatal because the bottom edge the serrated edge of the iceberg kind of grinds along the side of the of the ship

does exactly and opens it up yes yes exactly right and actually the thing that everybody really talks about is the sound so in walter lord's book a night to remember and indeed in the other book that we've been talking about a lot richard davenport Hines' book, Titanic Lives, both of those writers have lots and lots of examples of the different ways in which people described the sound. So one of the lookouts said it was a grinding sound on the bottom. Another lookout, a grating sound, like a ship running up on gravel, a crushing noise. And lots of the passengers said it was a sort of clattering. It was the sound of going over marbles. But it's not a particularly...

Oh my God, we're sinking. No, not at all. You get strange sounds on ships at sea. You do indeed. You do indeed. But of course, one guy who I guess is a bit twitchy is William Murdoch, who is effectively the man in charge. So Edward Smith has retired. Yes. He is first officer and he knows they must have hit. And he also knows that in this situation, the Titanic has been built with these various kind of watertight compartments along

the side, hasn't it? 16 of them, Tom. 16 of them. Yes. And there's a kind of switch, isn't there, that he presses? Automatic doors. Yeah. And they go down presumably to inspect the damage. Yeah, that's right. So listeners who've been with us since the beginning of this series will recall that they have the most elaborate safety features of any ship yet built. They have these, as you said, these different watertight compartments separated by bulkheads, but the bulkheads don't go right to the very top of the ship. No, they go up about 14 feet, don't they? And the way it works is if you hit something head-on,

the first four of those compartments can be flooded, and actually it'll be fine. You'll be able to keep going. Because the rest will be buoyed by the air in the watertight compartments. Similarly, if something hits you broadside, so in the centre of the ship, two of those compartments can be flooded, and it's fine.

What will not be fine is if the first six are all flooded. Because it will then rise up over the... Exactly. The ship will start tipping, and it'll go over the top of the bulkheads, into the next one, the next one, the next one. And actually in the film, people who've seen the James Cameron film, which we'll be talking about in the next episode, there's a scene when this is brilliantly explained

by Thomas Andrews, the designer, after the iceberg is hit. He gets out a sort of a chart. Yeah, it's one of the great moments in the film. Anyway, we will come to that. So this is coming. They know that this will be the case. But actually, what's happened in the meantime is that the passengers, some of them have heard this noise.

So a lot of the passengers, of course, are asleep, have gone to bed. It's 1140. But there are people who say, oh, gosh, what's that? And generally what happens, the survivors say things like, we felt a rip, we felt a twist, a heave of the engines, one of them says, and a more than obvious dancing motion of the mattress that I was sitting on, a rumbling scraping noise, all these things. And almost without exception, the stewards, as is their job, say...

It's all going to be fine. Oh, don't worry, it'll be fine. Not least because, of course, they think it will be fine. They think it's just, as you said, Tom, it's a bit like when you're on a plane. Everyone knows that. There's a sort of strange noise and you think, oh my God. But actually, it's completely fine. I mean, of course, also, what happens afterwards, though, is that there isn't a noise.

So the Titanic is not moving. Yes. And anyone who's been on a train at night, you can always tell when you come into a platform because suddenly the train is not moving and there is a silence. Yeah. And the silence in a way can be very loud. Yes. So that is also something.

So the stewards are going around and saying, we'll be on our way very soon. But as it is, it is just this great ship is motionless now on this very, very still sea. But actually stopping the ship, Tom, initially is very noisy. And actually one of the things that the survivors remember is that initial cacophony. So what happens is that on deck steam when you stop the engine steam starts roaring off so people have gone up on deck to investigate are actually deafened by the sound of the steam kind of pouring out and are slightly worried about it and then as you say you have this long kind of dead silence now at this point people are already people have gone down to the mail room, and the mail room is one of the

first places that gets really flooded. So it's getting ankle deep in water. And this is not a good sign. No. And as soon as people realize that's happening, this is kind of serious. Meanwhile, the stewards are going around saying to people, gosh, we might have run into something worst case scenario i mean one says to lady duff gordon who you quoted at the beginning wrap up warmly for you may have a little trip for an hour or so in one of our lifeboats and actually lady duff gordon says later you know if it hadn't been for this ill-advised reticence hundreds more lives would have been saved now of course the issue is i mean we'll get onto the knife boats in a second because lots of people will be thinking of this already, I imagine, when they're listening.

One of the issues is there are not enough light boats for the numbers of people. So even if the stewards had gone around saying to everybody, panic, quick, get up on deck, that would not necessarily, I mean, maybe more people would have been saved but it would have created all kinds of problems once people realized there weren't enough lifeboats but also i mean they do have to ensure that there isn't a stampede of course they do yes so they they can't really afford to to rush around you know all hands on deck help we're all going to sink no no no and i guess at this point still they don't think that no because it's still in the first five ten minutes after the encounter with the iceberg so you know it's not yet

certain the millionaires in particular seem to have been reasonably insouciant so there's a guy from a couple of episodes ago charles hayes from canada's grand trunk railroad he says to somebody he says to a chemical manufacturer you cannot sink this boat no matter what we've struck she is good for eight or ten hours but dominic that chemical manufacturer i mean he has noted that the boat is starting to list yes he's kind of saying well this is yeah shouldn't be doing this he says exactly that is this shouldn't be happening well particularly because the water is so calm so the thing is reading up on this i was reminded so often of you know when you take any form of kind of mass transit it could be you mentioned a train but of course a plane is the more obvious

example i would say you put yourself in the hands of this great bureaucracy that you don't really understand the workings of it. And, you know, you shuffle along in your queue when told to, you behave exactly as ordered. You don't generally be the person who makes a fuss and starts shouting. Not just because you're kicked off the plane. But also particularly not if you're an Edwardian gentleman. Exactly, exactly. Where kind of stiffness and a refusal to panic is part of the marker of your class. Absolutely.

So the millionaires, it has to be said, behave well. They do and they die. Reading this story, Tom, I mean, not to sort of give too much of a spoiler, I was thinking all the time, what would I have done in this situation? And I know what I'd have done. I'd be dead because I'd be too embarrassed to make a fuss. You know, even if people in my family were saying, go and say something, I'd say, no, I'd rather die than stand out in some way and say the wrong or do the wrong thing.

And clearly lots of people, they're paralyzed, aren't they? By uncertainty, by passivity, by obedience, by deference, by conformity, all of these kinds of things. And the people who often survive, Richard Davenport Hines has a good example of a widow. She's called Emma Bucknell. She's a first-class passenger. You get the impression she's a sort of a bolshie bossy woman or somebody who would be described as being like that by patronizing men. And the stewards say to her, don't worry's fine go back to your cabin and she doesn't she dresses up and she goes out and there's a woman who says oh we won't have hit an iceberg and mrs button is like picking up pieces of ice yeah and saying to her look at this it's a bloody big bit of ice

we've obviously hit an iceberg and being difficult saves you yeah and being a good person kills you i would say and we're now kind of 10 minutes after the iceberg yes and people are already starting to prepare for the possibility that they may have to get in lifeboats yeah and evacuate the ship yes so lady duff gordon who we have mentioned yes she has a silk kimono and a squirrel coat some a coat made of squirrels yeah i guess red squirrels because there wouldn't have been gray squirrels in britain by that point no and madeline aster yeah so the teenage bride of uh of jack aster yeah she is in a black coat with sable trim a diamond necklace and fur muff that's what i'd wear on a lifeboat so they're

going to look good yeah they're going to look good on the lifeboats. And Henry Widener, this is where he picks up his copy of Bacon's Essays, the 1598. Oh, yes. Which Robert Davenport Hines quotes this. A fellow bibliophile has called this the most touching, most pathetic, with all the most glorious incident in the romance of book collecting. Oh, that's nice, isn't it? So we've got muffs and we've got… Bacon.

We've got bacon. All the ingredients for an evening, actually. So the millionaires are starting to... They're not panicking, but they are putting on their muffs and their squirrel coats, picking up their 16th century first editions. Meanwhile, your hero, Captain Smith,'s literally been a sleep on watch. What's he up to? So the first thing he does, he doesn't panic.

He goes to the Marconi cabin. He says to the operators, we've hit an iceberg. You may well need to send messages preparing help. I will inspect the damage and then I will let you know. And Ismay pops up as well, doesn't he? Wearing slippers. He's wearing slippers and he's got his pyjamas underneath his trousers. Yes. And his moustache is looking very droopy by this point.

Thomas Andrews, the designer who we talked about many moons ago when we were talking about the ship being mailed in Belfast. Thomas Andrews goes with Smith on a tour of the ship and people who've seen the film again will remember this. It's a great moment and he kind of realises the ship is people who've seen the film again will remember this it's a great moment and he kind of realizes the ship is going to sink and ismay is saying i mean in the film but also i think in reality is saying but it can't you know it's unsinkable yeah she's made of iron so i assure you she can and she will yes it is a mathematical certainty so what they have done is they've gone down and they see straight away the six forward compartments have been breached the iceberg has ripped you described it's like a can opener didn't you yeah the iceberg has basically torn a hole along the side of six of these compartments so below the water line and

it is clear to andrews immediately that it's all over that it is game over the water is pouring in and the water will rise up over the bulkheads and one by one the compartments will be flooded. And he says, and again this is in the film, he says explicitly, we have at most two hours. And there is this sort of moment which the film captures perfectly, which undoubtedly happened in real life, when they realise there are not enough lifeboats.

A lot of people are going to die. Unless, of course, Dominic, they can get help from other ships. Help straight away, yes. So this is what Smith then does, isn't it? Yeah, and Smith and actually all the officers, by and large, keep their cool, don't they? Well, they would do. I mean, they're British officers.

One would expect that, the very idea that they wouldn't. Well, I mean, Tom, when we get to our final episode and we talk about reactions to it i mean british newspapers took enormous pride in this attack because it went down well a good death they said people people behaved absolutely splendidly and what a what a tremendous reflection on britain this is because they do they do keep their calm so he goes off and he transmits cqd which is the international call for help yes and the first call goes out quarter past midnight the first distress call cq is uh the marconi code for all stations and d indicates an emergency call exactly and it is known slang wise has come quick danger yeah so sos does exist SOS has only been brought in four years earlier.

So CQD is the sort of the standard code. It's slightly harder to transmit than SOS, which is why SOS was brought in. And there's this tragic detail, isn't there, that a passenger ship making for Canada, Mount Temple, does receive this, goes to the coordinates given by the Titanic, but they're the wrong coordinates.

Yeah. And there's another one, actually, the Californian, a freighter. And the guy who's in charge of the wireless on that ship has actually, because it's so late, he's switched off his Marconi apparatus. So that ship comes very close, but it doesn't come close enough.

They don't realise, the Californian does not realise that the Titanic is there and is sinking. And the Carpathia, when does it get through to the Carpathia? The Carpathia, it got the message a little bit later, and the story of the Carpathia when does it get through to the carpathia uh carpathia he got the message a little bit later and the story of the carpathia is an amazing one because the the wireless operator on the carpathia was only 20 years old and he was literally getting into bed and he was just waiting for confirmation on the message that he had sent on the marconi machine when he heard the titanic and had that not happened the survivors would have been in a real mess

in their lifeboats. Yeah, the Carpathia wouldn't have come. Farmore would have died. So talking of the lifeboats, Tom, we are now at roughly between 12.15 and 12.25, half an hour from the moment when they hit the iceberg. And Captain Smith says, all hands up on deck and get the lifeboats ready.

Now, the issue that he has and that they all have is that they know there are not enough lifeboats. So should we just go through how many lifeboats there are? Yes, sure. So there are two wooden emergency boats, which can each carry 40 occupants. So number one on the starboard, number two on the port. There are 14 wooden lifeboats, which can carry 65 occupants. And they, again, are kind of railed on either side of the ship. And there are four lifeboats, Engelhardt lifeboats. I'm not entirely sure what they are. What are they, Dominic? They have collapsible sides.

They're collapsible? Yes. Okay. And they're designated A, B, C, and D? Yeah. How many can they take? 47 occupants? Yes. So there's capacity for a fair few number, but not everyone. No, no, no. Not by any means. So there is deficiency in total, given that the capacity of the Titanic is more than 3,000 people, there is a deficiency of just over 2 000 spaces now the turtanic is not at capacity so basically about a thousand people or so are not going to fit on these and these

lifeboats but that is still an issue and captain smith and his fellow officers know this they also know the human propensity to panic which they are desperate to avoid. The one thing that runs right through this story is they do not want mobs of people storming the lifeboats, which they are obviously terrified is going to happen. But also they have the issue that they have to actually persuade people to get onto the lifeboats because there is a general reluctance, isn't there? Well, because to remind people, the Titanic is the equivalent of an 11 story building and you have to be lowered in a lifeboat onto the atlantic ocean yeah yeah people very rarely reflect on that you're absolutely right tom would you get into a boat being lowered out of the window of an 11 story building well it's like jumping from a burning

building isn't it i mean you know do you burn to death or do you... Right. You'd be very reluctant to do it. And actually, there had been examples of things going wrong. So there'd been an issue in the English Channel, a P&O liner, Oceana. There'd been a lifeboat that they dropped it in, it had capsized, and it had killed nine people. The men, the crewmen, are worried,

if we fill the lifeboats too full, will the davits, as they are called, and, if we fill the lifeboats too full, will the davits, as they are called, and the tackle from which the lifeboats hang, will they be able to bear the weight? Will they fall in? I mean, in the event they do, don't they? In the event they're fine. And they'd actually been tested beforehand, thoroughly. And so people should have known that they would. But of course, maybe some people haven't read the briefing. It's always the way. So that's an anxiety. First of all, there's the anxiety, can they persuade people to get into the lifeboats? But then there's the other anxiety that if they can persuade people to get into the lifeboats, who is going to be left behind? And the code of behaviour in this period

is absolutely clear that it is women and children first. It is. Yes. Which doesn't necessarily mean that men cannot board, but that is open to interpretation. So it's Captain Smith says women and children. Yes. But what does this mean? So different officers interpret this in different ways. So William Murdoch, he understands it to mean put women and children first. Leitola, who is second officer, so just junior to Murdoch, interprets it on his side, he's on the port side, to mean women and children only.

Well, you can see why this is such a crucial ambiguity. I mean, this will determine whether hundreds of people live or die on this ship. Because Murdoch thinks, I've got a lifeboat, I've got a crowd of people, I fill it up with what women and children there are, and then the men can fill up the rest of the spaces. Lytola thinks, we wait for all the women and children to be away before we start embarking the men. Because his argument is, if men get a sniff of the chance of a place on a

lifeboat they'll be piling in they'll all pile in yeah now you can see why both of them think this as it turns out lightoller's insistence he i mean he's one of the great characters the titanic story because as we said in a previous episode he is the guy who is the mark rylance character in dunkirk and he has this kind of heroic role well he's the most senior officer is the guy who is the mark rylance character in dunkirk and he has this kind of heroic role well he's the most senior officer on the ship who survived who survives so he's he's a great sort of name of the titanic story but his rigor probably condemns an awful lot of people unwittingly to death because he is sending away lifeboats with lots of empty places because there are no women and children about. And he won't let husbands get on with their wives.

Or indeed wearing long trousers for the first time, which we talked about the little boy who got his first pair of long trousers on his birthday the day before. Exactly. A terrible story. So gender is a determinant of whether you're going to survive or not, whether you're a man or whether you're a woman or indeed a child. But another consideration which is often assumed to have applied in the sinking of the Titanic is class. And anyone who has seen the James Cameron film will remember the scene where the gates are locked, the doorways, the kind of grill of the doorways, and they can't get out. But this is not kind of willful class hatred of the poor, is it? No. We talked about this yesterday, that these

lock gates are there because they're required to be locked by US immigration. Exactly. And they are definitely opened by half midnight. Yes. They are slow to open the gates. The gates exist because of US immigration regulations to stop the spread of disease. That is the rationale for it. They do open the gates, I mean, what are we, 45 minutes, 50 minutes after the iceberg has hit? So you can absolutely argue they open them too late no question and the reason they do that is not because they think who cares about the third class people yeah it's because they are literally deluged with with stuff they are in a terrible situation they're trying to do lots of different things the british investigation to this the official investigation because you dug into that didn't you tom i can see you've got the stuff here in the notes yeah that um there are third class passengers who are also often reluctant and this is borne out by a lot of accounts from surviving stewards and officers and things. Third-class passengers were

often very reluctant to go up on deck, to get in the lifeboats, to leave their baggage behind, because of course their baggage means so much to them. Well, also lots of them don't speak English. So that's also a consideration. I mean, the confusion and the chaos. So the conclusion for what it's worth and i guess people might might say well they would say that wouldn't they it is no doubt true that the proportion of third class passengers saved falls far short of the proportion of the first and second class but this is accounted for by the greater reluctance of the third class passengers to leave the ship by their unwillingness to part with their baggage by the difficulty in getting them up from their quarters which were at the

stream ends of the ship and by other similar causes and that's borne out tom there's a guy called john hart who's a third class steward and he was in charge of a group of single women couples with children and wives traveling on their own with children and he testified to the inquiry and said they did not believe the ship was hurt in any way and he has been told take the women upstairs he takes a load up some of them say it's very cold and they go back downstairs again some of them say they would rather remain on the ship than be tossed about on the water like a cockle shell yeah and i think that that has the ring of authenticity there are some finnish girls who he's taken up and they get into one of the lifeboats,

but there are actually women who he has put in a lifeboat who get out again and scurry back into the liner where they say it's warmer. I mean, it does seem the case, doesn't it, that there is not deliberate prejudice against third-class passengers as opposed to second and first? No, I don't think so. Certainly on the part of the people allowing people onto the lifeboats. No. That it is very much focused on gender rather than on class. I think what's also true is you might think, well, are there instances where first and second class passengers are saying, particularly first class passengers,

let me through, I've paid more for my tickets and all that. That absolutely does not happen. That would be their code. Exactly. Exactly. Their code. I mean, you could argue their code kills them. Their code of reticence, of noblesse oblige, you know, that actually, if a lifeboat is being sort of sent away, is being lowered, if you're standing there, Tom, I would advise you, do all that you can to get on that lifeboat. Right. Scratching, clawing, doing what? But as we will see, I mean, men who do take advantage of empty seats, they're not pushing

women or children out of the way, but they get on because they might as well, because otherwise they're going to drown. I mean, they are not treated well in the aftermath of the Titanic, but we will come to that. No, they're not. No, they're not. I think very harshly. Tom, we should probably take a break, shouldn't we? Should we take a break and we will return and we will get into the granular detail of the appalling, terrifying details of the lifeboats. So we'll be back

in a second. I'm Marina Hyde. And I'm Richard Osman. And together we host The Rest Is Entertainment. It's your weekly fix of entertainment news, reviews, splash of showbiz gossip. And on our Q&A, we pull back the curtain on entertainment and we tell you how it all works. We have just launched our Members Club. If you want ad-free listening, bonus episodes and early access to live tickets, head to therestisentertainment.com. That's therestisentertainment.com. Hello, welcome back to The Rest Is History. So Titanic has hit the

iceberg. It is starting to sink and the lifeboats are being prepared. Dominic, let's go through and look at the process by which some people get into these boats and some people don't. Yes. So the first lifeboat to be launched is on the starboard side. So this is lifeboat number seven, and this is supervised by Mr. Murdoch. So you will remember from the first half of this episode that Murdoch's attitude is women and children first, and then we'll fill up with men if they are there so one of the issues of course they have is they're in a hurry they're constantly wanting to get a lifeboat away to make room so they can load another lifeboat yeah but also the lifeboat has to get away because when the ship sinks i mean that will create quite a wash exactly so the longer they

have to get away the more likely they will be to survive. And as a result of all this, an enormous proportion of these lifeboats are leaving with lots of extra capacity, not filled. And this is the case with this very first one. It sets the tone. There are 26 people on the lifeboat. Three of them are crewmen. 23 of them are first-class passengers. Of course, the first-class passengers. Of course, the first-class passengers are very close to the decks. So it makes sense that the first-class passengers are the first ones to be got away. But there are 39 spaces. So in other words, it's less than half full. Because at this point, people are still saying, well, what's the point? Can't we just wait? It'll be all right. I mean, there are three guys who were French guys who've been playing bridge downstairs. Monsieur Chevret, Maréchal and Aumont.

They get on Lifeboat 7 when there are spaces and there's a call generally, men. They get on and they remember afterwards people saying, what's the point? Yeah. Why bother? You know, it'll be fine. Yeah. So Lifeboat 7 was between 1230 and 1245. So about an hour after hitting the iceberg.

Next one, 10 minutes later, is lifeboat five. That leaves about two-thirds full, so there are 36 passengers on this one. Still, people are very reluctant. Then we have the first port lifeboats on the other side. So this is where Lightoller is, and he is not letting any men on at all. Yeah, and this one is extraordinary. There are 37 empty places and 28 occupants of this lifeboat because he will not let men on.

And there's really one of a multitude of very moving stories on this lifeboat. So there was a woman called Eloise Smith, a sort of society lady from the United States. She's a suffragist. She's a member of the Republican Party. She is there with her husband, Lucien. And remember, we said there were 37 empty places on this lifeboat. And she is standing there with her husband,

and she asks Captain Smith personally, who is standing there, she says, can my husband get into one of these empty spaces? And he ignores her, and he shouts through his megaphone, women and children first. And her husband, he does that classic thing, Tom. He does the right thing. He says, nevermind captain about that. I'll see she gets in the boat. And then he says to his wife, I never expected to ask you to obey me, but this is one time you must. It's only a matter of form to have women and children first the boat is thoroughly equipped and everyone on her will be saved this is her husband saying this yeah and she says you're telling me the truth yes he kisses her his last thing he says is keep your hands in your pockets because it's going to be very cold then she's

lowered and that's the last time she ever sees him. And of course, for the rest of her life, it nags at her. And if she'd been on the other side with Murdoch, he'd have been in with her. He would have allowed him to go. Yeah. And that she was lowered with 37 spaces next to her and her husband was not allowed to take one of them up. I mean, a terrible, terrible story. So one o'clock in the morning and they start to fire distress signals yeah kind of

flames going up in the air and everyone finds this very unsettling and alarming i mean understandably yeah as you would as you would i mean not just because it's a signal of um the ship is in real distress but also because they're very loud and yeah you know unsettling the whole experience is now becoming quite frightening for people i think yes and Yes. And also at one o'clock, lifeboat one leaves. And this contains a very controversial escapee, namely Sir Cosmo Duff Gordon, who is the stiff, uptight fencer and his wife, the lingerie designer. Yeah. But they are two of the five passengers and seven crewmen who got on this lifeboat. So another lifeboat that leaves not even remotely close to being half full.

So 28 spaces on this lifeboat. There's a Cosmo. There's his wife. There's her secretary, Laura Francatelli. And there's a Manhattan wholesaler called Abraham Salomon and a guy called henry stengel and they say to murdoch as he's loading lady duff gordon wants her husband to come in she says can he come and murdoch says yeah get in yeah you know obviously it strikes him as mad not to allow men to take up the empty spaces but also he's really desperate to get that lifeboat away because he knows that

there are bigger lifeboats to come. So he needs the hooks to get the bigger lifeboats in. So he says, just get it away, get it away. And of course, when this story gets out, it's incredibly controversial afterwards that Sir Cosmo Duff Gordon and Lady Dve Gordon left on basically an empty lifeboat. Yeah, but also what turbocharges it is that Sir Cosmo then tips the sailors on board, doesn't he? The members of the crew. He does. And so this is then remembered and interpreted as being a bribe. Especially in America.

But you'd think Americans would love this, I mean, with their culture of tipping, Tom. I think they were good tippers then. I think there's been a cultural sea change since the 1910s. So he is someone who will be definitely condemned for having gone. Yeah. I think unfairly. I think totally unfairly. So Theo, our producer, has written in the chat,

he says, surely letting men on is better than half full boats. Yes. I mean, Theo, I think everybody would agree with that. Well, unless you're Officer Lightoller. But Lightoller's not mad. I mean, Lightoller's argument is, once you say there are places for men, there is a danger that actually women and children will just be pushed aside and men will... You don't think that would have happened, Tom?

No, because it didn't on the other side. No, it didn't. I suppose you're right. Yeah. Yeah, but you can understand why he thinks yeah of course i can of course i can but it does seem very very harsh crazily harsh so i mean the eloise smith story there are many such stories of women who are standing with their husbands and their husband is not allowed to take up the place next to them

so we were just on starboard weren't we lifeboat Lifeboat one. So back on port side, light huller side, about 110. There really is a growing sense of panic now, I think. Nobody's deluded anymore about what is happening. And so men are starting to think through the implications of the fact that they're not being allowed on. And there is a certain swelling of anxiety, perhaps one might say. I think absolutely there is. And Captain Smith is having none of it. Behave yourselves like men.

Look at all of those women. See how splendid they are. Can't you behave like men? I love Captain Smith. Well, he obviously, I mean, it works, doesn't it? Because he basically, every time he, in his sort of sea dog style, he shouts this, the men pipe down.

I would behave like Cal on the film. I would grab a baby. Would you? Yeah, I would. Yes, of course. Billy Zane's character. Yes. And there is a kind of abiding urban myth,

which has never been proved, that there is a man who disguises himself as a woman to get on board. Yes, that's right. That's right. So now Lifeboat 8 goes away from the port side. Then Lightoller loads another lifeboat, lifeboat 10. There are quite a lot of second-class women and children in this lifeboat. A good example, there's a family called the Wests from Cornwall. They're going to Florida. Arthur West has his, I mean, this is a very moving story. He's got his two

daughters, little girls who are sleepy. He puts them in their life jackets. He carries them to the boat deck. His wife, Ada, is pregnant. He lowers Ada and the two little girls into the lifeboat. He lowers a thermos flask of hot milk for his youngest daughter, who's 11 months old, by rope to his wife in the lifeboat. And that is the last time she ever sees him because, of course, he's not allowed in. And, Dominic, there's a very similar story about Joseph Laroche, who people listen to our episode on the second class passengers will remember. He is the only black man on the Titanic and he has his wife and two daughters.

And there is a similar scene. He gets them into the lifeboat. They're lowered and he is never seen again either. Yeah, they're actually awful stories aren't they and then dominic there's a very moving story very famous story of the strausses so isidor strauss was one of the three plutocrats on board who in the conspiracy theory is deliberately killed by jp morgan yeah which is clearly not true and he is with his wife ida and uh he's told that he can board lifeboat three yeah nobody would object to an old gentleman like you getting in exactly and he says i will not go

before the other men he refuses to accept that and then his wife refuses to go i will not be separated from my husband as we have lived so we will die together. And so then they basically, they kind of wrap up and sit on deck chairs together and wait for their doom. They appear in the film where they are shown kind of hugging each other on a bed, but in reality, they perished on board. But I mean, either way, the story is so moving, isn't it?

Yeah, because she was heard saying to him later on, we've been living together for many years where you go i go that she wouldn't leave him that she knew it meant certain death and the story of their self-sacrifice immediately became a part of titanic mythology so i think it mattered that they were jewish because for the jewish community in new york this was seen as tremendous heroism and their rab rabbi in New York said of Strauss, he was a loyal son of his people, a loyal American. Isidore Strauss was a great Jew. And now when we are asked, can a Jew die bravely? There is an answer written in the annals of time.

He's not the only Jew to die bravely though. So Ben Guggenheim, we talked about him, didn't we? Suave, son of the Leadville, Colorado, silver mine dynasty. So he does what I think I would actually do in this situation, which is to go and don dinner dress. Do you know what? His final lines were heard by a steward. I mean, I'm sure I won't say this on my deathbed, but I'd like to believe that I would. I am willing to remain and play the man's

game if there are not enough boats for more than the women and children i won't die here like a beast tell my wife i played the game out straight into the end no woman shall be left aboard this ship because ben guggenheim was a coward yeah you see so i can't decide whether i would do that right and dress up in black tie and be in sushi or dress as a woman or whether i would do that and dress up in black tie and be in sushi on. Or dress as a woman. Or whether I would dress as a woman, grow a baby, and jump screaming and howling and sobbing into the lifeboat. I can't decide.

Surely the ideal would be to do both. Be heard loudly saying, but then disguise yourself in a shawl as a sort of Croat peasant. Yes. And then you'd have to live a false life. Well, you'd have to live like a Croat peasant for the rest of your life. You would. Which would be very poor if you were originally a billionaire.

Ben Guggenheim. Yeah. But it'd be better than being dead, I think it's fair to say. And also, Tom, imagine the satisfaction you'd get in later life, years later. Reading your obituaries. Yeah. Or watching Hollywood films about the titanic seeing your own amazing lines but knowing you'd fooled the world so that's very heroic and i think even more

famously heroic are the musicians oh yeah because the band really does play on doesn't it it does it absolutely does this is probably the most famous story of all certainly the most famous band story i think it's fair to say. Don't you think? I mean, I suppose the two things that everyone knows about Sinking the Titanic is women and children first and the band plays on. Yeah. And I was so delighted to learn that they really did. So the band leader was a guy called Wallace Hartley, who was from Colne in Lancashire.

And he and his bandmates, they just started playing to keep the passengers calm while the lifeboats were being loaded. Lots of survivors said they played right up until the last minute. In the film, am I right in saying he says, as I recall, the band leader says to his other musicians, oh, you can all go now. Yeah, and they do head off. He stays, and they're shamed, and then come back.

And they play with him. Yeah, it's do head off. He stays and they're shamed and then come back. And they play with him. Yeah, it's very, very moving. And actually, amazingly, it is said that his body was found in evening dress in the ocean with his music case strapped to it. Yeah. And so he gets an absolute hero's funeral, doesn't he, back in England? In Lancashire, yeah. Colne's hero, Britain's hero, the world's hero. Thousands of people came to his funeral, this guy Wallace Hartley. So it's a weird thing with the Titanic story, isn't it? Because one of the things that's moving is obviously the tragedy, the sacrifice, and the sort episode, lots of people like Churchill saw it as an absolutely inspirational, heroic story that actually in the darkest, darkest situation possible, people discovered these reserves of courage and stoicism that they would never have previously imagined they had.

Yeah. Although by now it's 1.30 and panic is starting to spread. Oh, yes. Yeah. Because people are now beginning to try to force their way onto lifeboat so lifeboat 14 there's a story a widow from st i's called agnes davis she knows the space this is on light on her side she says please come my son who is 19 get onto the boat with me and the officers say we will shoot him if he tries to get onto the lifeboat. Same lifeboat.

Some people may remember from the last episode, I think it was, or the last couple of episodes, we had a story of a family called the Colliers. So these are the ones from Hampshire, the bell ringer. Yeah, from Hampshire. And they'd rung the bells of the church just before they left. Charlotte Collier won't leave her husband and she won't get into the first lifeboat. And then eventually she's forced because a sailor grabs her daughter, Marjorie,

and throws her into a lifeboat. She has to get in. She's in her light gown. Her husband is shouting to her, go Lottie, for God's's sake be brave and go i'll get a seat in another boat she's basically bundled into the lifeboat by sailors and she looks back doesn't she and sees her husband's back walking away walking away and that's the last she ever sees of him and basically her life is she is traumatized for the rest of her life yeah by this

i let myself be saved because i believed that he too would escape, but I sometimes envy those whom no earthly power could tear from their husband's arms. 16-year-old Liverpudlian Cooper, or Cooper's apprentice, Andrew Gaskell, who has been taken by a smooth, handsome bachelor to Canada. And he somehow sort of sneaks into the lifeboat, doesn't he? He's hoping to be invited in. He's never let on. Then he kind of just jumps in and the women cover him up. Then he is spotted by an officer, the fifth officer, Harold Lowe, who draws his revolver and says, you've got 10 seconds to get back on the ship or I'll blow your brains out.

And the boy is begging and sobbing. And then the officer says, that hasn't worked. And then he changes his tone and he says, for God's sake, be a man. We've got women and children to save. We must stop at the decks lower down and take on women and children, which actually wasn't true. They weren't going to stop at the decks lower down.

But the boy gets out kind of sobbing. The women are all sobbing. And that must have been the end of him, Tom. That must have condemned him to death. So the fact that officers have guns and are brandishing them by this point, we should talk about, again, one of the most notorious incidents, him to death. So the fact that officers have guns and are brandishing them by this point, we should talk about, again, one of the most notorious incidents, which is again shown in

the film. And this is the claim that William Murdoch, the man who effectively had been responsible for the collision with the iceberg, the ripping open of the hull, that he shoots a man and then shoots himself. And everyone who's seen the film will remember that. And this is drawing on authentic rumors from the time. So these rumors were denied by Lytola. So Murdoch doesn't survive, but Lytola does. And he says that he saw Murdoch busy working to free lifeboats when he was swept into the sea by a great wave crashing up, so that that's how he dies. And after the film came out, Murdoch's nephew sees it and is so offended on Murdoch's behalf that he complains. And in fact, film executives fly to Murdoch's

hometown to apologise. And James Cameron says that the depiction of Murdoch in the film wasn't meant to be negative. He says, I'm not sure you'd find that same sense of responsibility and total devotion to duty today. This guy had half of his lifeboats launched before his counterpart on the port side had even launched one. That says something about his character and heroism. So there is, I think, a sense that this didn't happen, but there is a counter view that Lightoller might have said what he said because he didn't want to upset Murdoch's widow. So he may deliberately have told a white lie. And adding to the possibility that Murdoch did commit suicide is the fact that he would have known that his career was over and he may well have felt such a burden of guilt what he did. Yeah, we just don't know though. So it's unproven. But I mean, it is a kind of one of those mysteries that shadows our sense of the story, kind of glimpse into the horror of the moment, I think. 20th Century Fox actually gave a donation. Murdoch's old school had a fund, a memorial fund, which I assume is still running. And 20th Century Fox actually gave them a donation

to say sorry. Well, good on them. They didn't publicly apologise. The interesting thing with all those stories, so there are lots of stories and rumours about what happened to the captain, Captain Smith. Of course, the only honest answer is nobody could possibly know. And at that point in the night, it's so chaotic anyway, and the panic has now spread so widely. So a steward reports seeing Smith walk to the bridge.

Yeah. And it is generally thought, isn't it, that he dies on the bridge? Yeah. So that, I think, is, I mean, it's not just possible, it's plausible. So that's what's shown happening on the film. Yes, it is, isn't it? He's holding the wheel or something, I can't remember. But there are greater implausibilities.

So there's his last words, be British, boys, be British, which I think appears on his memorial. Oh, he definitely said that, Tom. He undoubtedly said that. But I think that's invented later. And there are kind of various JFK type theories that he was spotted. Right. Few years later, cocktails in New York, that kind of thing. But I think that all of these reflect the fact that it is complete chaos and nobody really knows what is going on. And this, I think, is the context for the other notorious event that happens at around this point, which is that Bruce Ismay is one of

the men who gets into a boat. So Bruce Ismay, to remind people, he is Mr. White Star, isn't he? Yeah. He had inherited White Star effectively from his father, who was this sort of rough-edged shipbuilding tycoon, Bruce Ismay. His father had tried to make him into a gentleman. He is the personification of White Star, of the transatlantic race of the trade to the world. And he's despised by americans as someone who's inherited his position from his father and he's despised by the british as a kind of upstart man in trade so he is he's a man without allies on either side of the atlantic really yeah and that means that what happens next is is presented in the darkest shade possible

because we're now it's 140 lifeboat40, Lifeboat Sea is being loaded. Various people who we've met before are getting on it. So Emily Goldsmith and her young son, Frankie, this is the people who are taking the boy, Alfred Rush, who's just been given his long trousers. So the husband doesn't get in, you know, kisses his son on the forehead. So long, Frankie, I'll see you later. Alfred Rush in his long trousers does not get in because he's proud to be a man. I'm staying here. Yeah. A crewman is trying to pull him on.

He looks, we said before, he looks young and he says, I am staying with the men. And he's there in his trousers and he's so proud of himself. Yeah. And of course, he's condemning himself to death. And so this is when Ismay gets in. So Ismay has been behaving well. He's been helping

get people onto the lifeboats. He is urged to get on the lifeboat by one of the sailors. Gets in. But there are various accounts that he jumps in earlier, whatever. But I think the consensus

would be that probably it's as with the Duff Gordons, that there are no women and children to hand. Yeah. There is a space. He gets in. When that lifeboat leaves, Tom, there are six empty spaces.

He is not denying somebody else a space. No. So there is room. There is absolutely room. Well, so the British report on the tragedy says, had he not jumped in, he would merely have added one more life, namely his own, to the number of those lost. but this is something that we will be looking at in our final episode when we look at the reactions to it is the judgments on ismay in the film i mean we'll talk about this in more depth next time but in the film the moment when he does this i mean he's been shown as a pretty

despicable character hasn't he throughout the film he. In every drama, he's shown as a terrible man. And he looks so shifty and furtive. In his slippers and his dressing gown. And he slips onto the boat at the last minute. Yeah. But, I mean, personally,

I think that is unbelievably harsh. I mean, he did the right thing. Dominic, we will discuss this in due course. Okay. But it doesn't help, Ismay, does it,

that people who are considerably more famous and celebrated and richer than him do stay? And I suppose the richest of them all is Captain Jack Astor. Yes. So about 1.55 now. So we're an hour and 15 minutes after they hit the lifeboat. Remember, Thomas Andrews had said it would sink in two hours. So they're more than halfway through that time and they're really running out of lifeboats now so this is the last big one lifeboat four port side light dollar is filling it there's been a bit of faffing around with what deck it's going to go from we don't need to necessarily go into that light dollar is saying come on come on come on aster is standing there

with his child bride pregnant child bride she gets in says to her, please get in to please me. And then he says in this sort of quiet, courteous way to Lightoller, is there any chance I could get in with my pregnant wife? And Lightoller says, no, sir. No men are allowed in these boats until the women are loaded first. So he's holding fast to that commitment. And Aster is clearly not happy and he says to his wife the sea is calm you'll be all right you're in good hands i'll meet you in the morning and he

gives his gloves to her and then steps back from the rail and salutes her and then the lifeboat is away yeah so there's one more lifeboat they managed to get away, collapsible D, one of these lifeboats with collapsible sides. And so now everyone on the ship, there are no lifeboats left. No. So what are you to do? So people start jumping, don't they? They do. Yeah, people huddle in their groups. So Aster is with a guy called John Thayer and he's with George Widener. With his book.

Very close to them is a guy called Archie butt who we talked about before president taft's military advisor um some people have started jumping light taller and some of the other crew guys are trying to get down two more collapsible boats which were fastened to the roof of the officer's quarters this happens in the film doesn't it they're trying to get them onto the deck yeah but it's at that point when more and more waves are rushing onto the deck. The ship is beginning to plunge. Lightotter describes, he says, the sea came rolling up in a wave over the steel-fronted bridge along the deck below us, washing the people back in a dreadful huddled mass. He himself, I mean, his story of survival is one of the most famous stories. He, at this point jumps off

the boat he says striking the water was like a thousand knives being driven into one's body and for a few moments i completely lost grip of myself we'll come to this but you cannot exaggerate how cold that water is i mean that water is so cold it will kill you well there's the um again this is quoted in the film it's given to jack when he's trying to persuade rose not to jump in and says that if you do jump in, the cold is like kind of like a thousand daggers cutting you to pieces. Oh, right. Same line. Of course. Yeah. And that's lifted. But I mean, it is unbelievably cold. You're going to have about 20, 20 minutes. Yes. Before you die of hypothermia.

But he, Lightoller, is dragged into this shaft with a wire grating on the ship. And the water is pouring in and he's being dragged and dragged into it and he would have died had it not been for the fact that basically at that point the ship belches out some hot air and sort of blows him up to the surface of the ocean out of the shaft and he's able to scramble onto one of the collapsibles collapsible b which has been washed away from the ship. And this is probably the moment that Captain Smith dies, whether on the bridge or not, but probably on the bridge.

Yeah. I can't believe, Tom, I can't believe you're pouring scorn on him saying, be British, boys, be British. Well, we know that that was made up. We know that was made up. Because nobody saw him die. There were no reports of him dying. Except suddenly they started being manufactured. I think it's sad to see the podcast descend

into such anti, you know, Britain-hating cynicism. Why do I hate Britain? Yeah, exactly. Yes. So the funnel collapses, and that happens two hours and 25 minutes after hitting the iceberg. It crashes downwards.

It splinters the deck. It hits the sea with a massive, great, thunderous crash. The camera and film captures this very well, doesn't it? The sheer horror and spectacle, actually, of this colossal edifice toppling and smashing. And smashing people who are underneath it, who are already in the water. Exactly. And one of the things interesting about the survivors on the lifeboats who are watching it, again and again, they come up with the same metaphor. So Beasley, who we've talked about, he compares it to a stricken animal, this thing, the ship. And then Violet Jessop, who is one of the stewards who we quoted earlier, who's got into one of the lifeboats. One of the huge funnels toppled off like a cardboard model,

falling into the sea with a fearful roar. A few cries came to us across the water, then silence as the ship seemed to write herself like a hurt animal with a broken back. So the sense of it as a living creature that is in its death throes, really, really powerful. And,

you know, the visuals of it are incredible. The lights flickering, dimming, flickering again. And then at 2.20, going out two hours and 40 minutes after the iceberg had been glimpsed by the lookout. So Ismay... He can't bear to look. He sits with his back to it. Some people look.

Lady Duff Gordon, she sees the lights being extinguished. She says, I turned shudderingly away. Then I forced myself to look again, yet another row of lights had disappeared. Then her husband cries out, my God, she's going.

And then what they all describe... It's the most extraordinary moment, isn't it? Yeah. I mean, the bit that for me when i saw the film traumatized me so much that i couldn't bring myself to watch it again until a few days ago tom i'll read what light hola says the huge ship slowly but surely reared herself on end and brought rudder and propellers clear of the water till at last she assumed an absolutely perpendicular position in this amazing attitude she remained for the space of half a minute then with impressive majesty and ever-increasing momentum she silently took her last tragic dive

to seek a final resting place in the unfathomable depths of the cold gray sea and um edith russell who's a fashion reporter who'd been in first class and got on one of the boats compares watching it to the collapse of a skyscraper and i think anyone who's seen the film even if you hate the film it's an incredible moment there's the bit where jack and rose are clinging to the very top of it and they're next to a bloke who drops off and his corpse bounces off the propeller yeah and into the sea and then it just plunges down deep into the water i mean an amazing amazing moment it is it's incredible But the thing that most people remember, actually, funnily enough, is not so much the spectacle

as it's the sound. It's the sound. Because we started this with the sound of the marbles or the grinding of the iceberg just going along the side. And people say, Lady Duff Gordon,

an indescribable clamour. Lots of people use the word clamour because what happens is, you see, the people who die don't drown. They have life jackets on. White life jackets. By and large, they die of the cold and it takes them 15 to 20 minutes to die.

And all the lifeboats were around them. So people can hear the howling and crying and sort of the sound of it. Jack Thayer, one of the survivors he calls it a continuous wailing chant from the 1500 people in the water all around us it sounded like locusts on a midsummer night in the woods in pennsylvania now you mentioned the goldsmith family tom so frank goldsmith and his son frankie frankie the little boy is nine years old and his mother, they're on their lifeboat. His mother, she kind of cuddles him so that he won't see the horror. But he hears it, of course. He hears the howling.

And later on, when he's growing up, he lives near the Detroit Tigers baseball stadium. He drove a milk cart. And whenever the team hit a home run, he would say, he had this moment of terror because the roar of the crowd always, always brought back the sound of the 1500 people freezing to death out there in the Atlantic. So people may be wondering, well, there are all these lifeboats with empty places. Why are they not going back to rescue people who've fallen into the sea? Some of them want to.

Some of them do want to, don't they? Yeah. And the answer is that they're afraid that if they go back, they will get capsized and they will all die.

They will. And in fact, there is only one lifeboat that goes back, and that's lifeboat 14, commanded by a man called Harold Lowe, who in the film

is played by Owen Gruffydd. Oh, yes. And they go back, basically, once the dying people, in his words, have been thinned out. It's a kind of horrible way of putting it. He says it would not have been wise or safe to have gone there before because a whole lot of us would have been swamped and then nobody would have been saved. And so he goes through, but they find only four men alive. And one of them is one of the Chinese firemen, a man called Fang Lang,

who is found clinging to a door, which is, of course, how Rose survives in the film. Yeah, of course, of course. So one story just to end on this, I think, to give you a sense of the, if we haven't had enough horror. On Collapsible A, there was only one woman, only one woman survivor,

and she's called Rhoda Abbott. And she was a seamstress from Buckinghamshire who had moved to rhode island and she was married to a boxer there in rhode island and then she'd come back to england with her sons who were called ross moore and eugene but they actually didn't really like england so she decided she'd take them back to north america and she's going back to North America. And they don't make it onto a lifeboat initially. And she stays because she won't leave her boys. So she stays on the ship.

The ship plunges. The boys shove her into collapsible A and then they're off into the ocean. And the two boys, 16 and 13, are hanging on to the edge of the collapsible boat while her mother is in the boat. But as Richard Davenport Hines says in his book, young men die more quickly in freezing temperatures because they have a lower percentage of body fat,

but also because they tend to get more, I mean, excited as it were. And that means they go more quickly into shock. And so the two boys are holding the edge of this boat and their mother is looking on and one by one, they slip away into the sea with her watching. And there is nothing she can do about it. And as Davenport Hines says, it must have felt unbelievable. Few women can have ever suffered as she did so there you go well to coin a phrase a night to remember we will be back imminently with our final episode where we will look at the aftermath of the titanic the way that it's been understood the myths that have grown around it the metaphors that have been projected onto it we'll look at the film but of

course if you don't want to wait for that, if you, rather than hanging around on the deck of the Titanic, you want to get in a lifeboat, you can do that by going to therestishistory.com and you will be able to have that episode right away. But for now, bye-bye. Bye-bye.

I'm Marina Hyde and I'm Richard Osman and together we host The Rest Is Entertainment it's your weekly fix of entertainment news reviews splash of showbiz gossip and on our Q&A

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