The Rest Is History - 453. Custer's Last Stand: The Final Showdown (Part 8)

Episode Date: May 22, 2024

What happened between the moment that George A. Custer dispatched a trumpeter with his famous final plea for back-up, and the gruesome discovery of his forces at the Little Bighorn? Certainly, the morning of the 26th of June 1876 found the overwhelmed Major Reno and what remained of his men, along with Captain Benteen, gathered atop a hill, bloody, dehydrated, surrounding by putrefying corpses, and mystified as to the whereabouts of Custer. And the nightmarish ordeal of Reno's clash with the Lakota and their allies was not yet over. Gunfire, carbines and the whiz of arrows echoed in the distance, while below them fearsome Lakota warriors were unnervingly draped in the bloodied jackets and hats of Custer’s 7th Cavalry. Finally, at 3pm, the vast encampment of Lakota began moving off, and at dawn the next day they glimpsed a dust cloud in the distance: reinforcements at last. What they saw upon finally descending the hill, was a scene of such horror, that it would resound through the ages… Join Dominic and Tom as they describe, moment by moment, the events of George Custer’s electrifying last stand at the Battle of the Little Bighorn, and its aftermath. What really happened, and what became of Custer, Crazy Horse and Sitting Bull? Above all, who was to blame for the events of that shocking day? EXCLUSIVE NordVPN Deal ➼ https://nordvpn.com/restishistory Try it risk-free now with a 30-day money-back guarantee! *The Rest Is History LIVE in 2024* Tom and Dominic are back onstage this summer, at Hampton Court Palace in London! Buy your tickets here: therestishistory.com Twitter: @TheRestHistory @holland_tom @dcsandbrook Producer: Theo Young-Smith Assistant Producer: Tabby Syrett Executive Producers: Jack Davenport + Tony Pastor Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Thank you for listening to The Rest Is History. For weekly bonus episodes, ad-free listening, early access to series, and membership of our much-loved chat community, go to therestishistory.com and join the club. That is therestishistory.com. Hello, everybody. Now, Theo, our producer, has asked me to point out to you that this episode is very, very gory. So if you're listening in the car with small children, consider yourselves warned. Enjoy. Dead? Is it possible? He the bold rider, Custer our hero, the first in the fight, Charming the bullets of yore to fly wider, Far from our battle kings, ringlets of light.

Dead, our young chieftain, and dead, all forsaken, No one to tell us the way of his fall. Slain in the desert, and never to waken. Never, not even to victory's call. Backward, again and again they were driven, shrinking to close with the lost little band. Never a cap that had worn the bright seven bowed till its wearer was dead on the strand. Closer and closer, the death circle growing. Ever the leader's voice, clary and clear,

rang out his words of encouragement glowing. We can but die once, boys. We'll sell our lives, dear. Stirring words, Dominic. Up there with McGonagall. Yeah. In the annals of the rest is history poetry that's actually much better than mcgonigal that is much better it's very rousing it's like the sort of

sir henry newbolt or something yeah it is and it was written by a man who's first becoming a friend of the show frederick whittaker right who uh wrote the two volume biography of custer yeah within barely weeks of him being killed. Yes. And it's all very stirring, isn't it? And it kind of creates this image of... Custer's last stand. The ringleted young hero. Oh. Of course, he didn't have ringlets at the Battle of the Little Bighorn.

Dead our young chieftain. Yeah. I mean, is he a young chieftain at this point? He's losing his hair. But this is the poem giving voice to the myth of the last stand, Custer's last stand. Yeah, the Thermopylae, the Thermopylae of the plains. And that is the subject of today's episode, Custer's last stand, one of the epic moments in American and world history.

But what actually happened? Surely anybody listening to this will have listened to the previous 67 episodes in this series. So you will remember on the 25th of June, 1876, Custer has found the Sioux, Lakota Sioux and Cheyenne encampments that he was looking for, enormous village of teepees. He'd divided his forces. He'd sent Captain Benteen, his old enemy, off way to the left in a kind of sweeping move.

He had sent Major Reno down by the river, and Reno had absolutely disgraced himself. As Theo, our producer, pointed out, you did a great impersonation of Reno as Shaggy from Scooby-Doo, Tom, which was very moving. So, incredibly bloody and chaotic retreat, and they end up on a hill. Now, Custer has been up on the bluffs

on the eastern side of the river he's been looking down at the scene and at about 3 30 the last glimpse we have of him he has sent a message uh he sent a trumpeter giovanni martini to fetch captain bentin bentin come quickly there's a big village bring the ammunition packs and that is of course the message that's gone down as his last well just to read the message because it's the details are important i think bentin come on big village be quick bring packs ww cook so this is cook is a guy with unbelievably huge mutton chops, side whiskers, bring packs. So these are the instructions. Now it's controversial, isn't it? What then happens because Bentin does get this message and a lot of people are very critical of him because of what

happens. But just to point out, those instructions are contradictory. Because on the one hand, Custer is saying, come quick. But on the other hand, he's saying, go and get the ammunition. And the ammunition is quite a long way up the creek, because the mules are much slower. So when Bentin gets it, he's got to decide, well, what do I prioritise? Do I prioritise galloping off to to join custer or do i prioritize getting the ammunition first so you can see why he you know he might be in a muddle he's also sulking isn't he he wasn't happy that he'd been sent off way to the left earlier that day that morning uh he thinks that custer has sent him there to get him out of the you know to the

front line he's not going to get any glory. Custer will get all the glory himself. So Benteen has just been sort of pottering about with his men in this desultory way. And actually the first person they see is Sergeant Canapé, who we talked about last time, who's been sent to get the ammunition to go to the pack sort of train. And the sergeant says, as he rides past, he gives the impression that the battle is won already, doesn't he?

We've got them, boys. They're licking the stuffing out of them, he says. Now, I'm guessing this is because the last that Canapé saw was Reno's charge, possibly Reno's men firing. And he thinks all is going swimmingly. It's all going very well. Yeah. Benteen and co. continue. They're really moving at a fast walk, not a gallop or anything like that. As they approach the river, they see the trumpeter, John Martin, Giovanni Martini. And the trumpeter, who doesn't speak very good English, gives him the scrawled message.

And he says in broken English, the Indians are skedaddling. The Indians are running away. So Benteen thinks, he is actually cross at this. He thinks, oh, I've missed my chance. Custer is going to get all the glory after all. What a shambles. What a disgrace. Now, some writers are very critical of Benteen here. T.J. St Styles, it was an unequivocal, positive command to join Custer and an insistent demand for ammunition and supplies. But it wasn't, was it? I mean, we've said it's not clear. I think Benteen, come quickly or come on or whatever it was.

I mean, I think, okay, sure, he has to go and get the ammunition. But there is a sense of haste. There's an implied urgency there. Sure, but you've got to go and get the ammunition. But there is a sense of haste. There's an implied urgency there. Sure, but you've got to go a couple of miles of the wrong way to get the ammunition and then bring it back. And you can go as fast as you like. It's still, I don't think it's clear at all.

But Bentin does not go fast. Bentin dawdles. Because he's in a strop. Because he's in a strop. And later on, when there was the one investigation they held, which was actually an investigation into Reno's conduct, Bentin was asked multiple times, kind of on the stand as it were, why did you dawdle? And he gave very contradictory answers. As TJ Starr says,

he claimed he believed that Custer was perfectly safe and also that he was dead. He claimed he believed that the Lakotas were running away and also that they were smashing the regiment. So who knows what's going through Bentin? Maybe he doesn't know himself. You know, in the heat of battle and the fog of war. The heat of battle and the fog of war. Yeah. Yeah.

Who knows what may happen? It's a hot fog. That's what it is. Anyway, Bentin sort of continues. And after about 15 minutes, he sees these blokes on this hill. Because he's coming down the creek, isn't he, that Custer and Reno had ridden down. So if he's going to go up to the bluffs,

he's got to come down to where Reno is. Yeah. So he sees Reno on this hill, you know. Oh, how's it going? Reno is in a terrible state. Remember he's got his bandana around, he's turned into Christopher Walken. He's kind of sobbing.

Barstiles! They're coming for us. A total, yeah, he's dissolved into an absolute wreck. I've lost half my men. And Bentin says, well, where's Custer? Reno, I don't know. He went off downstream, and I haven't seen or heard anything of him since. Now, of course, there are Lakota around them, but some of them are now disappearing off sort of to the north.

Why? Presumably because they're off dealing with Custer or Custer is making a move or something is happening. Bentin shows Reno the note that says, come quick, and says, should we go and find Custer? And Reno says, madness to move until we've got ammunition. But his men have basically run out of ammunition. So Benteen thinks, yeah, that's probably quite a good call. He said later, he supposed General Custer could take care of himself.

Well, almost certainly the correct decision, because otherwise the whole of the 7th Cavalry would have been wiped out. Yes. But equally, you can see that there may be personal influences on that as well. I mean, if he really was adored Custer, perhaps he would have been a little bit more anxious about it. So they stay there on this hill and they stayed there until about 5 20 p.m so it's still light still very warm the pack train arrives so they get their ammunition and they can hear firing

i think this is for people who are wondering how long custer lived i think this is quite a telling detail they can hear firing away to the can hear firing on the bluffs. They can't see it, what's going on, but they can hear something. And actually, numerous troopers said, that must be Custer. And he'll come and rescue us soon. Yeah. Because all the while, Dominic, they're still being fired on. Yeah, of course.

Yes. So, I mean, even arrows, the arrow, if it goes into the bone, difficult to get out yeah of course i mean it could kill you you know in a bullet in the stomach that's not good but then very sinister development isn't there because they've heard this gunfire up on the bluffs and then soon afterwards they start hearing a slightly different sound of gunfire. It's a kind of zing sound came, one of the Lieutenant Varnum says. And it's the sound of the carbines and the rifles that the 7th Cavalry had been using.

Right, yeah. They're being used against, yeah. It suggests that it's come from Custer's troops. Yeah. Now, there was a point where some of them tried to break out. There was Captain Weir, who had tried to lead his company off what's called Reno Hill. Bentine and Reno ended up joining him.

They can see through their binoculars what they think are Indians firing arrows at something on the ground, people on the ground possibly. But eventually they are besieged on what's now called Weir Point by a huge force of warriors and they withdraw back to Reno's original hill. And there Reno is just absolutely wasted by this point. I mean, he's just sitting there with his bottle like a kind of baby. And they start to create a defensive line from boxes and saddlebags and bits of the pack train and dead animals and stuff actually bentin i have to say behave very poorly at first because he said don't bother and his company apparently suffered more casualties twice as many casualties than any other because because of his insouciance. But he does send up his game, doesn't he?

He does. Yeah, he has a game of two halves, hasn't he, Benteen? Yeah. He starts off very poorly, I think it's fair to say, but then distinguishes himself later. I mean, they're facing so many warriors. Nathaniel Philbrick says, actually, the funny thing is, the odd thing is that Lakota never charged,

because if they had charged, they would have overwhelmed them overwhelmed that sort of rorke's drift style yeah they would undoubtedly have overwhelmed the defenders well bentin i state but the facts when i say that we had a fairly warm time with those red men that's quite british that's very fairly warm fairly warm so duke wellington would approve of such understatement So dust comes down and then it's night. And they can hear the women howling for the dead down in the village. And they can hear drums. And they can hear the cries of celebration. And it's horrible.

Oh, it is horrible. Because they're wondering, what will dawn bring? Are we going to be able to hold out? And where is Custer? Now, Bentin clearly is going around saying to everybody, I know Custer. I know the way he behaves. He's abandoned us. He's run off.

Yeah, he's gone off. That's absolutely classic Custer. This is typical. He's got the victory and he's, yeah. So they are stuck up on this hill. But you don't think that, I mean, the fact that 7th Cavalry rifles are suddenly have popped up. I suppose they might think

that it's been taken by Reno's dead. I don't know. Yeah, I suppose so. I don't think they're really thinking about it. Yeah, maybe not. Most of them.

I think they're just in such a funk, Tom. Yeah. And not unreasonably. A Bali funk. So they wake up the morning of the 26th. They're still on this hill.

To bolster your last point, they can see at this point that some of the native warriors below, the Cheyenne or Lakota, they are wearing 7th Cavalry coats. And some of them have hats. They have the kind of straw hats. So that would be a bit of a giveaway that something untoward has happened to Custer's men. But actually, they just look at them and they say, well, maybe Custer has abandoned us and left some coats behind I mean who knows anyway they're just

stuck up there being fired at arrows gunshots and they don't have water do they have no water it's getting very very hot of course because the morning proceeds now the 40 of these men are badly injured and have lost quite a lot of blood and when you've lost a lot of blood, you're obviously in serious danger of dehydration. And they are desperate. I mean, one man went mad from thirst. They are chewing grass. They suck pebbles. They gnaw bullets to try and work up saliva.

And there's a terrible story, isn't there, of a man who's been shot in the stomach. Mr. McVeigh. Who's begging nonstop for water. And he ends up offering $75 for a drink of water. And they said, yeah, fine. Okay. A troop of graves, the rifle fire of the enemy

to go and get the water. From the river. Brings it back. Yeah. Gets his $75. The man drinks it and it just trickles out through the hole in his stomach.

Yeah, terrible. But he laid back and died in peace. So not all bad. So, yeah. Depends whether we think his glass was half empty. Half full there, terrible. But he laid back and died in peace. So not all bad. So, yeah. Depends whether we think his glass was half empty or half full there, Tom. And also, of course, the other thing is that when people die, they start to decompose. And this is a particular problem with horses. Because if a horse gets hit by a bullet in its stomach, it's kind of swollen with gases.

And you get this great explosion of putrefying flesh. Yes, because they're using the horse's bodies as a siege wall. Exactly, exactly. Now, we have been, or you in particular, you've made some pretty,

I think most listeners would agree, cruel and tasteless comparisons between Captain Bentine and your co-presenter that's that's true isn't it but you but you now step forward but captain bentine now absolutely distinguishes himself yes well done dominic you could see the bullets throwing up dust as they struck all around him while he as calmly as if on parade came down our lines and after his errand, returned in the same manner, carrying in his hand a carbine. His insouciance really comes into its own here, doesn't it?

What did you compare him? A man playing an aunt in the music hall or something. Yeah. He looks like a female impersonator. Yeah. That's fair to say. But then he says to his men, he gives them an inspiring speech. Now's your time, men.

Give them hell. Hip, hip, here we go. And everybody cheers and thinks this is tremendous. Well, but not everybody, Dominic. No, I know. So there is, it would be me. Yeah. There's a guy who lies on the floor crying and refuses to go.

And there's another bloke who hides behind a tin of cracker boxes and for the rest of his life is known as Cracker Box Dad. Yeah. Well, all the rest of them except for the crying person. And there's also a guy who they've had to truss up like a hog because he was whimpering and shouting. Like a hog. Anyway.

Oh, it just sounds awful. He says, we've got to go and get water. Loads of them step forward because they're inspired by his insouciance. Hip, hip. Here we go. And they go down and they get water in their kettles from the river under fire. And they return. Not one of them is hit.

They all got medals of honor. Yeah, as well they should. Very good behavior. So the day wears on. It's incredibly hot. They've got a little bit of water. They're still holding out. And eventually, at about three o'clock,

the firing seems to die down. What's actually happening at this point is the Lakota village is now moving. They are moving off towards the Bighorn Mountains. They've had their fun. And actually, some of them look out. There's a guy called Charles Windhoff who looked out and he says,

we saw thousands. We couldn't believe it, thousands upon thousands of people on foot and on horseback with all the trappings of a great camp moving slowly southward. It was like some biblical exodus, the Israelites moving into Egypt, a mighty tribe on the march. Many of them think at this point, well, custom must now be arriving with reinforcements and he has scared them off so they still wait on their hill they're kind of huddled on their hill they don't

want to take any risks of course it does take the indians quite a long time to move off so night falls dawn comes they look out from the hill and they just see the remnants of some lodges and some debris and then they see a dust cloud coming from the north and they're like oh no is this more is this the lakota attacking again but then no the dust cloud comes closer and they think it's soldiers it's u.s army soldiers thank goodness now just before the the US Army arrives, it is quite a Rorke's Drift style achievement, isn't it? They have held out on this hill. They were so close under Reno to complete and utter panic and chaos. And actually, Bentine, for all his malignance.

He's the hero of the hour. He has steadied their nerve. Yeah. 350 of them, I think, are still alive. It's like when we did our first time doing a live show and i was gibbering were you i had to be trussed up like a hog and you were just you came into your own you just stepped out onto the stage very cool very measured and you shamed me and i crawled out from behind the cracker box and that's what it's like. And that's why you've been given the Goldhanger Medal of Honor.

The malevolence for just that, for 90 glorious... For a fleeting moment. Yeah, it just vanished. And I thought... The cruel cynicism melted away. Yeah, this is a new Dominic. Theo has written in the chat, cynical intelligence. I like that, Theo.

Thank you. Anyway. They say, well done, Benteen. Yeah, well done, Benteen. So it is actually General Terry who is arriving. He's finished his dinner on the steamboat or whatever it is. Yes, he's brushed his whiskers with his napkin. And he's finally deigned to turn up.

Actually, that's very harsh. They attacked too quickly, didn't they? They should have waited for him. They give three cheers for him, and he takes his hat off as he rides up to them. And some of them notice that he's crying, that General Terry is crying, and they actually don't know why. And then Benteen's good behavior vanishes completely.

Bad, bad Bentine. It turns because he says to Terry, where's Custer? And General Terry says, to the best of my knowledge and belief, he lies on this ridge about four miles below here with all his command killed. It's an incredibly solemn moment. Now, anybody else would perhaps fall silent here? A moment of reflection, perhaps? Does Benteen? No.

Benteen says, no, no way. Custer's not dead. I know Custer's bad. He says, I think he's somewhere down the Bighorn grazing his horses. At the Battle of the Washita, he went off and left part of his command. I think he would do it again. Yeah. Bad, bad Bente.

Terry cuts him off. No. Terry is very cross at this. You are mistaken. You will take your company and go down where the dead are lying and investigate for yourself. And so this is a horrible journey, isn't it? Yeah. Because Bente takes his men and they go down into the valley, through the village, and up onto the heights.

And going down into the village, they find all kinds of remnants of the 7th Cavalry. So there's a head of someone and his body parts. And it's clearly been dragged on a rope and it's just completely disintegrated. So the arms and the legs have all just kind of fallen off. And as they're going across the plain, they start to realize that wherever they see clumps of arrows like cacti coming up from the grass, this is a dead trooper. There are entrails everywhere. There are limbs, heads, whatever. And there's a pole with three charred human heads who are so burned that they can't be recognized.

And then they go up onto the slopes and they think that a buffalo has been killed and that there are buffalo skins everywhere and skinned buffalo carcasses. But then they come up closer and they realize that what they had thought were buffalo skins are in fact the horses that are dead and that what they thought were the skinned buffalo carcasses are the bodies of custer's men yeah and they go around and they

count 197 dead soldiers yeah and quite and often there insofar as the men's faces survive, their expressions are one of terrible agony, fear, dread, eyes bulging. And of course, they're down at Custer's corpse. And does he bury the hatchet? No. Does he come up with a ringing acknowledgement of the heroism of his dead commander, Dominic? Or what does he say? No, he doesn't. He says, you know, he lets himself down, does Bentine. He says, there he is.

God damn him. He will never fight anymore. So Custer is lying very close to his brother, Tom. Tom's skull has been totally smashed in, hasn't it? And his body has been horrifically mutilated. His younger brother, Boston, is also there. And his nephew, 18-year-old, Autie Reed. Custer himself, oddly, has not particularly been mutilated.

He's been hit by two bullets, one in the chest, round about the heart, one in the temple. He the heart one in the temple he's been stripped naked he's been stripped his thigh has been cut which was a low-coder tradition and there is one more detail which was suppressed wasn't it to spare his wife's feelings yeah that his penis has been stabbed with an arrow so an arrow has been inserted into him one thing uh he has not been scalped no and so the question hangs over they would have wanted long hair scalp but of course his hair is not long and there's no particular reason why they would have recognized him no i think it's generally thought isn't it he probably hadn't been recognized so we'll maybe discuss this in the second half where we try and work out what actually happened.

Yeah. And discuss whether there was a last stand and if so, how heroic it was. Okay. So we will see you after the break. I'm Marina Hyde. And I'm Richard Osman. And together we host The Rest Is Entertainment. It's your weekly fix of entertainment news, reviews, splash of showbiz gossip.

And on our Q&A we pull back the curtain on entertainment and we tell you how it all works. We have just launched our Members Club. If you want ad-free listening, bonus episodes and early access to live tickets, head to therestisentertainment.com. That's therestisentertainment.com. Hello, welcome back to The Rest Is History and Dominic, Custer's last stand. We've said one of the absolutely totemic moments of world history, but what do we actually know about it? And what do we know about the events that preceded it?

Well, you'll recall that the last we saw of Custer was at 3.30 on the 24th of June when that trumpeter rode off with the message for Bentin. And I think it's fair to say that probably is the last time that anybody, any survivor sees him alive. So, of course, the thing with Custer in his last stand, Tom, the American thermopoly as, you know, all those people called it in the sort of late 19th, early 20th century. Nobody who was with Custer from that moment on survived. They're all dead. So it's been analysed, as it were, to death. I mean, in hundreds and hundreds of books by different historians.

And ultimately, the only honest answer can be that we can never know, that we will never know, that it is impossible to be certain. I mean, you will read books, we've both read them, they give extremely detailed accounts. He turned up the Kool-Aid, you know, across the screen. But no one, they can't possibly do that. Except having said that, there are two sources of information that we're not completely lost in ignorance.

Because we do have eyewitness accounts, which are those who fought against the seventh cavalry yeah now obviously they may be saying what their listeners want them to say yes you know they may embellish what they saw be boasting be boasting so that's not reliable but the other thing is that the evidence of archaeology yes of course and 1983 there was a fire wasn't there that kind of ravished the battlefield site. And a lot of archaeological work was done. So they went in, the archaeologists, and they kind of found military kit that had been abandoned.

And there's a very good book, Richard Fox's Archaeology, History, and Custer's last battle, which I think has shed a good deal more light on what happened than there was before that fire. Because it is such a mythic battle, of course, there are all kinds of myths around it. Yeah. So there's two really peculiar stories which you should deal with probably straight away. So there is one group of witnesses who are not people who fought against Custer, who are the scouts. There are away and all the shambles and all of that stuff. And Custer just watched and did nothing from the bluffs. Now, this is what at the time was an incendiary story. Remember, there's a lot of the people from that battle are still alive at that point. And Edward Curtis was really shocked by this story because, of course, this would transform the image of Custer that he had knowingly, presumably in an attempt to get all the glory for himself, had knowingly let Reno get into trouble while doing nothing to help him.

And actually, Curtis sent this story before publishing it. He sent it to Theodore Roosevelt because he knew Roosevelt was a great enthusiast for stories of the West. And he said to Roosevelt, what do you think? And Roosevelt said, well, I don't really believe it. But that said, anything is possible in the battle. Anyway, Curtis didn't publish it at first. It only came out much later on. And I think most historians now are suspicious of it.

They don't know why the scouts would have made it up or maybe got it wrong or who knows it would have been hard for custer perhaps get down there it might exactly now the other story even stranger there was a guy called private peter thompson who was 22 he was part of custer's company but he fell behind part of his battalion i should say and then he fell behind his horse was knackered he stopped to put on spurs to kind of encourage his horse. And some Lakota warriors came near him. So he went and hid in a ravine. And there's lots of sort of faffing around.

But later on, he comes out of his hiding place and he sees, he said, he saw a crow scout dragging a bound Lakota woman near the banks of the Little Bighorn. That's not impossible that a crow scout could have captured a hostage or something. And then he says he saw Custer alone on his horse talking to them. And Custer waved and then rode on. And no one knows what to make of this story. I mean, some people say, is it like a hallucination? Was Custer just going off and scouting on his own for a moment? And that's what he saw? I don't think it's true. Because I think that in the wake of the death of a famous person in a great disaster, people are always fabricating stories about how they saw him.

Of course. Because there are, of course, stories that Custer survived Little Big Hornet. He's now living with Elvis. Yeah, exactly. Captain Smith. Yes. Captain Smith of the Titanic. Right.

No, I think, I mean, we just don't know. Of course, the other thing is that from 1876 onwards, as soon as the story reaches the East Coast, it is big business to tell cluster stories,

isn't it? Of course. So who knows? Anyway, let's assume that both put those stories to one side because there's no way of proving them.

I think we can get a vague sense, can't we, if you sort of put all the different accounts together and see what they think. Should we just describe the topography again? Go on. Well, it's just, I mean, that is the most important thing. In 500 episodes, I've never known you such an enthusiast for the topography. I'll be honest. I often find it a real struggle to understand battles. Yeah. So in front

of me, I have the Osprey classic battles guide to the little bighorn. And I think these are excellent. I never thought we'd reach this moment. I know, but they give you wonderful maps with arrows and things, but they also show you the terrain. So I'm looking at it now. So there is the little bighorn river snaking through. You've got the plain. You've got the village on the, what is it? It's the west side, haven't you? Yes, the west side of the river. And Custer's over on the east side of the river. So that's the side that Reno is on.

He retreats back across the river to the east side, and he makes his stand up on the heights. Custer is already up on the bluffs, up on the heights. So he is galloping along the heights. The heights are scored by ravines, by by creeks so it's not a kind of continuous race but the bluffs that look over the village it's quite difficult to get down from them yes it is so there is a river a coulee yeah so you could go down that but essentially the challenge is how do you get down to the river and from the river into the village?

Because I guess the assumption has to be that Custer is looking to take hostages. He's looking to round up women and children, as he's done before at the Wishing Man. Because he's done it before. And because it's a tactic that's proven to work. So I think, and lots of people have written about this, think it is plausible that Custer probably at this point, we're talking what, 3.30, 4 o'clock? Yeah. Led a feint against the village or a move against the village.

Well, maybe not a feint. No, maybe not a feint. Maybe he's going down there to go and grab some women. Right. Could be, some historians think possibly to draw people off from Reno. He's trying to help Reno, actually. Other people think, no, Reno's beside the point. Well, he wouldn't know about Reno, would he?

Well, we don't know. We just don't know what he's seen. We don't know that he saw Reno, but it's possible he could later have seen him, right? It's about four miles away. Yeah, I guess that's true. Over Bluffs. I just don't think you've seen him. Now, I want to say what probably happened. We have very sort of disorganized and contradictory accounts from Lakota. Should we do it in order? Yeah. Before we get into the details of whether or not he goes down to the Ford and whether he dies there or whatever. Go on then, Tom. So there's a hill that will come to be called Calhoun Hill, isn't there? And this is where a large body of his

troops are stationed. Yes. Under a guy called Captain Keogh, who had fought against Garibaldi. And he's a very handsome man, the most handsome man. The handsomest man in the regiment. Yes. And he also has with him the eponymous Lieutenant Calhoun, after whom the hill is named, and who had been sent a cake by his wife. God, yeah. And he has ridden into the battle with this cake and nobody knows

what happens to it so presumably the lakota take it yeah do they eat it and then brush their teeth with custer's toothbrush that's what i would have done it's one of the great unknowns isn't it so calhoun hill is kind of the southern end and custer is moving northwards of a ridge of hills. Yes, it is. That's right. I think it's called Battle Ridge today. So Custer probably leaves some men, these men under Keogh, on that hill. He further divides his battalion. I mean, Custer cannot stop dividing up his troops.

But there is a point where they're all on the hill and this is where Boston Custer joins them. Yeah. So he's come up with his his supplies and things it depends which account you read there are some people who think custer went down twice to the river so he probably went initially this was his plan he went down to scope it out comes back up or was perhaps driven back up we don't know don't know by lakota now actually tom we should say everything from this point onwards it it's possible, of course, that from this point onwards, Custer is dead.

Because there are some Lakota who say, well, the battle didn't take, there was no last stand and no battle. We dealt with Custer and his men straight away. It took 20 minutes, enough time for a hungry man to eat a meal. Or as one person says, it took as long as it takes the sun to travel the width of a lodge pole. Again, 15, 20 minutes. Although the question then is how does Custer's body get up on the... Right. So I think it's unlikely that he's killed, as some people suggest,

down at the ford, down at the river. Right. That is a theory, that there was no last stand and that the whole thing just disintegrates because Custer dies early. But I just think that's it. I don't understand how his body would have ended up on top of the hill behind a horse. I think that's in defiance of some of the archaeological evidence, isn't it? Yes, I think so.

And the fact that there are so many shell casings on the top of this ridge. So it's plausible, given that also that his men, Reno's men, heard the firing going on to, what, 5.30 or so, I think. So it's plausible people think that by about five o'clock custer is on this calhoun hill with keo and they are it's probably maybe it's about this point that custer realized oh god this is actually not you know i mean it's an interesting question isn't it when was the point because at 3 30 he thinks he's going to win. And he's dead probably by six, certainly by six.

So at some point during that afternoon, it must suddenly have dawned on him and his men that they were massively outnumbered and they'd made a terrible miscalculation. But this is when he then thinks, I'll have another crack at the village. Maybe again, or maybe it's the first time. Which is so Custer.

Yeah. You're outnumbered, you're outgunned, maybe 15 to one. I'll just go down, attack the village, take a load of hostages. What's the problem? There must have been a moment when that gambit of going down to the village to take the hostages changes from being something that you're doing because you're going to win. And this will be a way to enable that to being a desperate. This is the only way of preserving your your life so he does go down there and he never crosses the river and there's all kinds of slaughter yeah he's brought along a

journalist obviously because he wouldn't want to be fighting a battle without a journalist to report it and this is a guy called mark kellogg and this seems to be when he died because his body is found down there yeah so there are definitely bodies down by the ford, down by the river. Up on the hill now at this point, Crazy Horse, according to some of the Lakota accounts, has joined the fray, is leading people against Captain Keogh. Well, no. Oh, you have different accounts, Tom? Well, no. I mean, he is, but people may be wondering what are the Lakota doing while Custer is galloping up and down hills and people are getting out their cake and things like that. And the answer is that, again, Crazy Horse is not rushing immediately into battle. He's communing. He is sprinkling dust over himself. He spends 20 minutes kind of just getting himself in focus and then he's off again and he seems to have led warriors up a coulee so up a ravine love a coulee and gall two of whose wives and three of whose children had been killed by the first volley from reno's

men when they attacked the young papa end of the the village. He is going the other way. And it does seem that the goal is to surround Calhoun Hill where Keo is and Calhoun. And they seem to be doing this quite successfully, even as Custer is riding back up to what will become Last Stand Hill. One reason they're doing it successfully, by the way, we know from the archaeology that the Indians, the Lakota, the Cheyenne, are very well armed by comparison with Custer's men. Remember, the Custer's men have these terrible carbines. They overheat, and when they overheat, they stop working or they,

I don't know, go off in your face or something. But also, they're single shot. Now, we know from the archaeology that the Native Americans had 43 different types of weapons. And I read, a startlingly large number of warriors, perhaps as many as 300, possessed modern repeating rifles manufactured by Henry and Winchester, capable of firing 17 rounds without reloading. So they're outgunned. I mean, they're massively outgunned. And Crazy Horses banned, Gauls banned. They're kind of surrounding Calhoun Hill. They are able to, from behind rocks, shoot.

They are hidden. The 7th Cavalry are exposed. As you said, many of them have better firearms. And the point comes, I think, when Gaul decides, okay, let's storm it. And they rush up the Southern approaches to Calhoun Hill and, you know, they're blazing away and the seventh cavalry just disintegrate. Yeah.

They're terrified. Some of them shoot themselves. One of the braves who takes part says it looked like a stampede of Buffalo. Quite a lot of the codes in their accounts say, um, the American troopers seemed like they were drunk or they acted like they were children or they became foolish. Some of them tried to surrender, raise their hands. Some of them shot themselves rather than fall into enemy

hands or started begging for mercy. Standing Bear, somebody who fought in this battle, told his son, when we rode into those soldiers, I felt really sorry for them. They looked so frightened. Many of them lay on the ground with their blue eyes open, waiting to be killed. But there's also Ironhawk, who later explains why he had pounded a trooper's skull to little smithereens.

And he said, these white men wanted it. They called for it, and I let them have it. Well, it's important to remember that. I called for it and I let them have it. Well, it's important to remember that. I mean, this was a war planned in Washington. Yeah, of course. Based on sort of, you know, exaggerated reports and with the pure land grab at its heart for the Black Hills. Custer's plan was to attack and he would have killed a lot of people if he'd won. And we've already talked about Gould, how he has a kind of personal reason to want to get vengeance. And that seems to be why he launches the attack that ends up overwhelming and destroying

the men on Calhoun Hill. Meanwhile, Custer is up on a further height along the ridge. And you can only imagine what he must have been feeling if he's still alive at this point, watching this horror happen and being absolutely powerless to do anything about it and there are a few men who do manage to get across to him a few but not that many yeah what are we talking about maybe 90 yeah it's kind of by thousands no way they could have broken out at that point and of course it might not have happened like this but lots of accounts think based on the archaeology and based on where the bodies were found, that this is the most plausible. And also people want to believe, everyone wants to believe there was a last stand, don't

they, Tom? I mean, even we want to believe it. Don't you think? I think that if that's what the archaeology suggests, then, uh, well, because we also know that I think that this is the point where the banners get taken, the boydons, they're called, aren't they? And they're presumably being used to, you know, what is it, coup sticks? Yes, of course.

I had thought of that. So it's on that, the northern bit of the ridge, that Custer and his men died. It's also at this point that they kill their horses and kind of try to build a wall out of them. Yeah, much as Reno's people had done, you know, hiding behind those putrefying horses on his hill. But they know they've got no hope. Yeah. I mean, they must be outnumbered, what, 20, 30 to one by now? Oh, yeah, at least.

As we said, Custer probably not identified because his body would surely have been singled out for particular... Well, I mean, interesting, Sitting Bull later gives an interview to a journalist and he says that he watched Custer fell and he said he killed a man when he fell. He laughed. People love this. You see, this is the great. I want that to be true.

The laughing cavalier. Yes. And all the Norse epic, you know, laughing while I die. That kind of Icelandic or Viking sense of the sort of hero who laughing falls against overwhelming odds. And that was the idea that Custer died with a smile on his face became enormously important to the mystique of The Last Stand. He died with his boots on.

Yeah, exactly. But actually, it's Custer's brother, Tom's fate, that gives you more of a sense of what it was really like. That's hideous. It's not laughing while you die. It's actually dying in horrible agony and then being horrendously mutilated afterwards yeah and do you think that's deliberate do you think they recognized him i can't remember which historian is it might

be philbrick it might be i don't know one of the many peter cousins one of the many others they say presumably he fought harder than others. And the harder you fought, the more likely you were to have incurred horrific injuries. But certainly it must have been done and dusted by about 5.30. There was a scout called Gerard who was hiding in the woods. And he heard firing continuing until, he said, two hours. And then no more firing. And it's at that point that the women would have come out of the village as was absolutely standard procedure.

They would pierce people's ears and things with all they would strip the dead. Well, this says there's a woman, isn't there? Who many years later, who says that they got hold of Custer's corpse and recognized it and did this to his ears and stuck an arrow up his penis yes improbable I think because I think it does seem that they didn't recognize him yeah I don't think they recognized him so are there any survivors I mean there is one famous survivor which is a horse oh yes of course yeah which. Which is Keo's horse, Comanche. Yes. Who, I mean, amazingly does manage to recover and gets tended by the vets. And from that point on, he would walk in processions at the head of Keo's old troop. And as with Kennedy's funeral, where they put the boots on backwards, they do that.

And Comanche lives to be 29. And apparently you can still see him because they stuffed him. He's on display in the Natural History Museum at the University of Kansas. Crikey. Worth making the trip just for that. Yeah. So taxidermy is something of a theme of this series, unexpectedly. But we love a heroic horse.

We do. So maybe good to end on a positive. Yeah. There was one survivor. So Benteen, this is the site that confronts him two days later. As he looks down, he makes that extremely disobliging remark. God damn him or whatever he says about poor old Custer. He'll never fight again.

In total, they had lost 258 men killed and 60 wounded. Lerb Cota and Cheyenne probably lost about 31 warriors, six women, four children. In the grand scheme of things, I suppose you could say it's not the Battle of Kursk or something, but the symbolism could hardly be more powerful. Under Terry, they got back to the river. Terry went back to his steamer and he said to the guy

who commands the steamer. Oh, thank God. White tablecloth. He said to... The flies. They had all the wounded and he said to the guy who commands the steamer. Oh, thank God. White tablecloth. He said to the flies. They had all the wounded. And he said to the guy, the captain, he said, Captain, you have on board the most precious cargo that a boat has ever carried. Every soldier here is suffering with wounds. They are the victims of a terrible blunder, a sad and terrible blunder.

And they rush back east and they break all speed records to get back to the town of Bismarck. And they get back there on the 5th of July. So the day after the nation's 100th birthday. Now, the celebrations of America's centennial had started at kind of just before midnight on the night of the 3rd of July in Philadelphia. The following day, the first story appeared, but not in the East Coast. It was in the West Coast in the Helena Herald of Montana, and that was based on the account of a Crow Scout. But it's not until the 5th of July that the story appears in New York.

Basically, when they got back to Bismarck, they told the local newspaperman called Mr. Lounsbury, the story appears in New York. Basically, when they got back to Bismarck, they told the, you know, there's a local newspaperman called Mr. Lounsbury of the Bismarck Tribune, and he found out about it. He dictated the story down the line on the telegram to the New York Herald. It took him, Tom, 22 hours.

Oh, God. The story, he dictated 40,000 words worth of news. That's supposedly the longest telegram ever sent. I mean, 22 hours. Yeah. And it appeared in the New York Herald on the morning of the 5th. And what about Libby? What about Mrs. Custer?

Libby didn't find out from that, of course. She's not in New York. She found out the following day. The news reaches Fort Lincoln, so just across from Bismarck, the commander of the fort went in to see her at seven o'clock in the morning, apparently, and said, you know, we have news. And she could tell straight away. And to her credit, to her immense credit, she insisted on visiting every bereaved widow in the fort to tell them personally what had happened. And she will always tend the flame of her husband's memory from that point on, won't she? So she lived until I think the 1930s.

She discovered that Custer had left her enormous debts. She managed to pay them off and she became the guardian of the custer flame she wrote a you know memoirs of him and then she became almost like a sort of this sounds harsh i don't mean it to sound harsh she became professionally custer's widow you know she that was her function her job yeah yeah you know she was very good at it she tended his his image but of course straight away when the news reaches these guys Coast, people are looking, saying, who's to blame? Well, Terry said, you know, the wounded soldiers on board are the victims of a terrible blunder, a sad and terrible blunder. So shades of the charge of the Light Brigade, someone had blundered. Yeah, someone had blundered.

And so if that is true, so if the disaster is due to a blunder, but of course there is another explanation for it that we'll come to after this, who's blundered. And I suppose there are three figures in the frame. Three figures. General Terry, by the way, you could argue General Terry, who's meant to be the overall commander of the expedition, he doesn't cover himself for glory. Or Crook. Crook. Why didn't he communicate after the Rosebud? So I think that you can point the finger at those two men.

Accepting that, on the day itself, mistakes were made, I think it's fair to the finger at those two men, you know, accepting that on the day itself. Mistakes were made, I think it's fair to say, Tom, isn't it? So let's start with the obvious candidate. He's the only person into whom there was an investigation. And that is Major Reno. Reno had a terrible life afterwards. He was court-martialed for sexual assault. He kept kind of wandering around, peering into women's,

the windows of the women's quarters in forts. He behaves extremely badly, generally. He's always getting drunk and getting into fights. He's a very troubled man. So Frederick Whittaker, who you began with, the poem, Custer's first biographer, the man who really invents the last stand story. Whittaker basically waged an endless campaign against Reno and said Reno was responsible for Custer's death. And lots of people, when they were writing accounts in the 20s and 30s,

this one here I found, Robert G. Carter, I think it's in the 1920s, Reno showed the white feather from the start and his entire conduct was that of a white-livered yellow street coward. If there was ever a pusillanimous poltroon in the army whose name should be handed down to future generations as an arrant coward, Marcus A. Reno is the man. I mean, I think that actually there is a measure of truth to that. If that Lakota woman who we quoted in the previous episode was accurate in saying that had Reno charged as Custer would undoubtedly have charged right at the beginning, then perhaps things might've been different. I think that was the only prospect

they had of winning the battle. So it is possible that Reno was the only person who had the opportunity to seize a victory in his hands and he fluffed it. Yeah. He did fluff it and he didn't command well. There's parts of me that feel sorry for Reno. Yeah. I feel sorry for him. He's a very troubled man. Yeah. But I do think that he was the only person who could have won that battle. But he's not a Custer. No. Had Custer been there, he might have won it. He's the wrong man in the wrong place.

He behaves very badly. But whose task was it to assign him that job? It was Custer's. So ultimately, if we are spreading blame around, the blame is with Custer. Historians generally, I would say, treat Reno... They agree that Reno was a coward and that he panicked. I think most of us are perhaps less inclined to be too judgmental because we know we've never been in a battle ourselves and we don't know how we would react.

I know exactly how I'd react. Well, anybody who's ever read about the men in the World Wars knows that every man is only brave up until the point when he cracks i mean everybody cracks you know it's very rare for somebody not to there's always a point you never know when it will be so that point where you know bloody knife's head explodes in his face can i blame him for panicking at that point and now of course lots of people who will listen to this and say god you're making excuses somebody who. And now, of course, lots of people who will listen to this and say, God, you're making excuses to somebody who is in a position of responsibility. But there's part of me that does feel a little bit sorry for him. Now, Benteen, on the other hand,

Benteen did behave very well in the later stages of the battle. He rallies the men on the hill. But historians tend to be very critical of Benteen, don't they? I think harshly. Do you? I think he behaves well. I think that perhaps his prevarications over... Prevarications that people point to over what he thought about custer i mean it's possible that he thought i mean either custer is dead or he's winning a glorious victory yeah and either way there's no point in going to it's his job to go tom i mean i understand that had he gone up he

would have been wiped out as well and reno's men would have been wiped out so bentin is the man who saves yeah you know a fair proportion of the seventh cavalry and i think he deserves credit for it thank you so much i hope you remember that next time you confront a similarly outwardly amiable but ultimately malign personality dominic that's i see the inner good in you oh that's nice and that i think is one of the lessons lessons of studying the Little Bighorn campaign. So we're glad you've got something positive out of it. So finally, of course, Custer. Now, interestingly, at first, the reaction was mixed to Custer. He wasn't immediately the national hero.

So Republican newspapers, because, of course, they remember that he has attacked Grant and he's been endorsing Democratic presidential candidates and all kinds of things. Republican newspapers said, what a fool Custer is. Disobedience of orders, a fatal blunder, says the headline in the Chicago Daily News. And it's Democrat papers that say, what a brilliant person Custer is. A friend to the white man, an enemy to, you know, everybody else, terribly hard done by the battle, little big horn and so on. Actually, over time, that partisan animosity just disappears, doesn't it?

And everybody concludes, oh, Custer is brilliant. He's such a martyr and a hero of the West. Actually, I'll tell you the single, the saddest sentence in this whole story. And it comes from not a brilliant man to be honest it's custer's father who's still alive emmanuel custer and when he read the papers saying that it was custer's mistake and that had led all these men to their deaths he said they wrong my dead boy there's something about those words you know they wrong my dead boy that kind of really resonates with me. I don't know why.

Well, because you're massively sentimental. Yeah, because ultimately a very kindly person. Despite, beneath your malign, cynical, evil exterior. Yeah, clearly. There's a gooey centre of sentimentality. Definitely. I've got a Disney core. That's why.

Now, you're generally more critical of Custer than me, aren't you, Tom? Do they wrong his dead boy? Is Custer at fault? Yeah, I think absolutely. He didn't reconnoiter. He had lots of people telling him, he was arrogant. He was complacent. He divided his troops up. Yeah, but that was undoubtedly a mistake. He sent Reno, whose belly was too yellow to cope with the stress of it. I see why he does it. His dash, his self-confidence has taken him to incredible heights of achievement.

But you only have to be unlucky once. It's not just bad luck. It's bad judgment as well at this point, I think. Well, that's the nature with any swashbuckling commander, isn't it? So more conservative commanders are never in that position. They're safety first. On the other hand, they don't win smashing unexpected victories.

I completely accept that. And I also accept that the nature of Custer's generalship, the nature of his dash, his celerity, his swagger, his charisma,

is why we're sitting here talking about him and not talking about all the other generals on the planes who lost men and ended up dead. Yeah, we're not doing a podcast. We're not talking about Fetterman. No the planes who lost men and ended up dead. Yeah. We're not doing a podcast. We're not talking about Fetterman.

No, Fetterman, exactly. Just on Custer, actually the trend among his biographers, I think, very recently. So there was definitely a turn against Custer, let's say from the, you know, bury my heart at wounded knee. Yeah. So the 60s, I mean, Custer is not a 1960s person and the kind of the influence of Vietnam. 60s, 70s, 80s, the trend is to be down on Custer is not a 1960s person. And the influence of Vietnam... 60s, 70s, 80s, the trend is to be down on Custer, to say a reckless, arrogant, racist commander. But actually, in recent years, there's been a slight swing of the pendulum back.

And I think quite a lot of historians say, listen, it takes two sides to win a battle. And actually, the story of the Little Bighorn is not the Americans lost it by their mistakes. Right. So it's not the blunder. It's the success. Exactly. And the success belongs, I think, preeminently to Sitting Bull, but I think particularly

Crazy Horse. Yeah. It's Sitting Bull who unites disparate groups into the biggest encampment ever. And he is confident this will protect us. And he's right. It does. If he hadn't done that. I agree.

If he hadn't been so successful and skillful in doing that, he'd have been toast. But I also think that it is Crazy Horse's leadership on the battlefield and the rosebud, which is an absolutely crucial overture. But it also gives the warriors the confidence to know that they can take on American soldiers and beat them. I mean, it does seem that in both cases, when they attack Reno, it's the idea that Crazy

Horse is coming. And then with the attack on Custer's men on the ridge, it's Crazy Horse's presence that inspires their destruction. Yeah. So sheer numbers. That's the one thing that none of the Americans ever anticipated, even when the scouts said it's very big. You know, when General Sherman was told about the defeat, he said he couldn't believe it. And he said, I did not think there were enough Indians there to do it. Right. And the fact that they are there and they're coherent and they're willing to follow something that approximates to orders.

I mean, it's not orders. It's the inspiration of a very, very charismatic war leader. But I think that is down to Sitting Bull and Crazy Horse and the courage of the men who fought with them. Just on the Lakota, of course, the great irony is all the talk about the last stand. This is their last stand, actually, isn't it? I mean, because their greatest victory.

This makes it inevitable. There's no way after this that the United States federal government and the US Army will just say, as they did after the Fetterman massacre, that they'll just say, okay, fine, you win. We'll stay out of the Black Hills. The scale of the humiliation on the nation's birthday is such, it makes it absolutely inevitable that they will come back for more in a way that will make it absolutely impossible for the Lakota to win out or to survive with the lifestyle. Well, I mean, that world was dying anyway, wasn't it? The world of the bison and roaming across the plains. And

just on Custer, Tom, now we will tell the story of Crazy Horse and Sitting Bull and the Lakota, but just on Custer, you love the subject of Custer, don't you? But now that we've finished this whole story of his part in the story, do you feel as favorably inclined to him as you did when you and I were young and we were reading that Lady Bird book? Well, so I didn't know all the role that he plays in the racial politics that follows the end of the Civil War. I didn't know that. And of course, there's a world of difference between a children's book describing tales of heroism and daring do and then watching say little big man which i remember watching at quite an impressionable age dustin hoffman yeah dustin hoffman and in which the washita is cast as a massacre from vietnam the milai massacre or something i was very into bury my heart a wounded knee i was very into

sacred spirit all that kind of thing i was very open to seeing the 7th Cavalry as an exterminatory force, very kind of down on them. But having said all that, there is something almost joyous about Custer's zest for battle and for living that I think is appealing and does explain why he is so vivid as a historical figure in a way that all these other kind of almost identikit generals with their mutton chops and their whiskers and their, you know, their kind of doer behaviour just doesn't. I mean, he does dazzle and this is why we've done this great series on him. He's like one of those characters, isn't he? Like, I mean, we've done some pretty terrible, you know, by many standards, Hernán Cortés.

I don't think he's like Hernán Cortés. Well, Hernán Cortés is much more calculating. I think the person he reminds me of is Rupert of the Rhine, who likewise was a kind of youthful hero, the dashing cavalier who charges down hills and is swashbuckling. But of course, who stages all kinds of massacres and who ends up a slaver in the caribbean and seems to you know i mean essentially not the stuff of a hero and yet he is heroic he does have the kind of the dash he does have the swagger the archetype of that is alexander the great leading charges swashbuckling blonde hair blowing in the breeze yeah i think i mean alexander is a

vastly more significant figure vastly more resonant figure. I think, I mean, fundamentally, Custer is a slight figure in the kind of the scales of history. But the reason for studying him and the reason that I, the justification for doing this series in the depth that we have done is that he is a brilliant, brilliant way of looking at this period of American history that is so important. And yet, relative to other periods of American history, it's very little studied. And Custer is the great kind of shining figure from this period, as also, I think, are Sitting Bull and Crazy Horse in very different ways. And it's the fact that it's the fusion it's the way that these two unbelievably dynamic figures end up meeting the symmetry of the story is perfect and there are certain episodes certain narratives in history that do have a quality of symmetry that just makes them yeah kind of perfect for study we were talking about the homeric quality of it weren't we the fact that it feel and the fact that it feels like it could be a viking epic or whatever so we will as we said

end the stories of we'll tell you what happened to crazy horse and sitting bull and indeed the lakota more generally and that story does end with a another really extraordinary and very very moving set piece which is the story of the ghost dance and then the massacre at Wounded Knee. And we will be telling that story next time, won't we? So come back next time for the end of this epic adventure. Bye-bye. Bye-bye. I'm Marina Hyde.

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