The Rest Is History - 47. The Seven Years' War

Episode Date: April 29, 2021

Tom Holland and Dominic Sandbrook are joined by historian and broadcaster Dan Snow to discuss the biggest event of the 18th century - The Seven Years' War. @dcsandbrook Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Thank you for listening to The Rest Is History. For weekly bonus episodes, ad-free listening, early access to series, and membership of our much-loved chat community, go to therestishistory.com and join the club. That is therestishistory.com. It would require a greater philosopher and historian than I am to explain the causes of the famous Seven Years' War in which Europe was engaged. So wrote William Makepeace Thackeray in 1844 in his great novel The Luck of Barry Lyndon. Indeed, Thackeray goes on to say, Its origin has always appeared to me to be so complicated and the books written about it so amazingly hard to understand

that I have seldom been much wiser at the end of a chapter than at the beginning and so shall not trouble my reader with any personal disquisitions concerning the matter. Well, I have Dominic Sandbrook with me, of course. And Dominic, we relish a challenge, do we not? So we are going to engage with the causes of the Seven Years' War. Not only are we doing that, we are venturing into a real super league of podcasting situation now, aren't we? I mean, we really are now becoming an elite closed shop because our guest is not only an expert on the Seven Years' War, he is one of history's absolute elite.

He is the Real Madrid of history podcasts. Not that we're not Barcelona, but this is a podcast in Classico. Yes, it is, because we have with us Dan Snow, who... Dan, have you done podcasts before? No, this is my first.

Can you hold my hand? I thrash myself to death doing podcasts, as you want To thrash myself to death doing podcasts as you want to because you've been on about 64. But more germainly, you are also the author of Death or Victory, The Battle of Quebec and the Birth of Empire, an absolutely splendid account of the Siege of Quebec, the Death of Wolfe, all that kind of stuff. So absolutely the perfect person to have on. But also, Dan, it's very exciting for us not just to have you on the show,

but also to be doing an 18th century topic. Because I realise that although we've done, what, Dominic, about 40 odd episodes now, we haven't done one exclusively on the 18th century. And I think that's a real gap. Listeners, I am shaking my head with disappointment but not but not with surprise because tom what is it about the 18th century sandbrook's proclivity what is it about the 18th century what is it about the 18th century who would even ask that i tell you would ask that somebody writes books about the 1970s come on man

i mean but i i've given up on you a long time ago but holland i've always seen a spark i've always seen the spark of recognition despite his obsession with the ancient Near East. I've always deep down known that he's an 18th centuryist at heart and we could win him over. And it does get a decent heft in your new book, which I'm glad to see, Tom.

But the 18th century, first of all, obviously the important kicker here is that 18th century is steel, the best years of the centuries either side. So it's 1688, 1815, obviously is that 18th century is steel, the best years of the centuries either side. So it's 1688, 1815, obviously the long 18th century. This is when it all happens, guys. All these people focus on the 19th century, talking about your industrial revolution.

The industrial revolution is an 18th century phenomenon. That's where it begins. There are 17th centuryists now kind of picking up their phones, getting ready to tweet, so don't at me. And science, as we understand it, Newton, of course, 17th century, but it works in the 18th century. You've got Voltaire, you've got Hume, you've got Montesquieu, you have got Locke, you have got Wollstonecraft.

This is when our modern world is being shaped. By the end of the 18th century, you've got people suggesting that working people and women should be allowed to vote. You have got a very strong abolitionist movement. The end of the 18th century has got the same kind of discourse. you know you've got people suggesting that working people and women should be allowed to vote you have got a very strong abolitionist movement the work the end of the 18th century has got the same kind of discourse and the american republic has been born the first republic successful republic governed by a written constitution i mean this is a transformation in the history of the human race and i always think you know there's there's you've triggered me now guys but i mean yeah he's off

he's off there are there are you know like birth of the um we're all starting things in the in the 18th in the 17th century and also there is a whole raft as you know of brilliant scholars telling us how fantastic the um early medieval and medieval scholars were at science but i do think it's fair to say that something quite dramatic happens at the end of the 17th and the 18th we get that we get a recognizably modern world and from the piston from the train from the from the piston that drives those trains along at the very beginning of the 17th century although i should say drives those steam engines along uh to landing on mars and launching a drone is is a direct direct line we're close an august an augustan achievement so so dan you've listed the amazing achievements of the 18th century the enlightenment is a direct, direct line. We're close. An Augustan achievement.

So, Dan, you've listed the amazing achievements of the 18th century, the Enlightenment, the seabed of the Industrial Revolution, of the American Revolution, of the French Revolution. We are focusing on a war. And we're focusing on what is actually a very, very important war, what could possibly be described as the First World War.

Would you view the seven years war as a a conflict on a level with the napoleonic wars the first world war the second world war as one that shapes not just british history or french history or european history but global history much more important than those those i'm so glad you said so what a great claim i mean the yeah the first of all it sees the four great empires hapsburg hohenzollern uh romanov and ottoman empire just falling apart within two years no i i think no i obviously uh row back on that slightly i think the seven years was fundamentally important i think it look it stands shoulder to shoulder with those ones in India, in terms of which we can talk about

the spread of Britishness, trading practices, legal practices, language governing practices in India, and of course, fundamentally in North America. It gives us an English speaking. We used to be able to say, when I wrote the book we could always talk about that kind of anglo-saxon ideas of government but of course now that is yeah i don't

know i don't want to get into that particular point exactly that's cancelled but but it was quite a useful term for 18th century is to describe an english british way of of organizing societies uh and organizing uh economies and political economies. So I think it's fantastically important. But it is also part of this thing called the Second Hundred Years' War, which is much more interesting than the First Hundred Years' War, which is this extraordinary global conflict from 1688 to 1815 for global hegemony between, well, remaking Europe, but also global hegemony between Britain and its colonial competitors in the end, France. And that's a war that ends literally with the Duke of Wellington watering his horses in the Seine and sleeping with Napoleon's mistress.

You know, that is an extraordinary conflict, no less dramatic than the flag that hangs on the Reichstag in 1945. And one of enormous importance. Is the Seven Years' War a war? Or is it, you know, is it the First World War? We know when it started. We kind of know when it ended, although it's slightly muddy. The Seven Years' War, is it a distinct war? I mean, there seem to be different dates about when it started.

It's kind of piggybacking on different conflicts all across the world. Is it a distinct thing, do you think? I think you're trying to get me to talk about the third carnatic war here aren't you uh no sorry you're right you're right that old trap yeah i mean could we just just for those who are not familiar there's very few listening who are not familiar with the seven years war i mean the the dates as in the history book 1756 to 1763 although well yeah that's the thing isn't it are they yes dominic and you're both right but tom i don't don't you do stuff down there's not very few listening you've done really well you've you know it's been a big success it's a nice it's a nice little project for you and i think we should wind the podcast up now tom he's he's he's the wrong

guest let's be honest so no the one interesting that yes um it is a war the war in in india it is is a sort of parallel conflict and one that is only very vaguely linked to the war in the rest of the world and that's where we should point out that william pitt the older who was not prime minister uh during the seven years war he was sort of he but he was arguably the kind of global strategist the secretary of the sort of if you like the foreign secretary the person in charge of the strategy he he had very limited he did virtually nothing in india it is you do see the first british amazingly you see the first british redcoat regiment the first british army regiment arriving in india in this period to take part and take part very it plays a decisive role in this war. You also see Royal Navy ships in the Indian Ocean.

But it takes months for information to get back and forth. So local commanders are acting on their own initiative. For example, in India, you get the Black Hole of Calcutta we want to talk about. That's a war that has been going on between effectively the kind of crumbling and semi-autonomautonomous narwab of Bengal and East India Company forces, when the British discover that there is also a war in Europe and North America has broken out, they then go on the offensive. Extraordinary action. The Royal Navy sails up to Chandanagar and buys a very expensive victory, smashing French power in Bengal. So they are related, but they're not all part of one great chichilian war rooms let's move bits around the map sort of strategy the war in north america is

fascinating because it begins this is unusual this war is that the great wars of europe the war of austrian succession uh in 1740 the war of spanish succession the williamite wars of 1790 1690 they tend to begin in Europe. This actually begins in North America. This is what's amazing about the Seven Years' War. It doesn't last seven years, you quite rightly point out. The fighting has been going on since at least 1754 in North America. In the Pennsylvania backcountry, this war, the shots that will ignite this global war,

are fired by a little band of American loyal, loyal colonial troops, loyal to King George II. Led by the young George Washington. It's unbelievable. It's so exciting. So George Washington is going in, a colonial militia from Virginia, head in. France claimed the whole of the Mississippi Valley, all the area drained by the Mississippi, which is a gigantic swath of the Brego.

Is that because they wanted beaver? They wanted beaver, Tom. They wanted beaver. They had the fever. But, you know, and it's not the first time that that date has been made. I know. I just, I tried to work with that, but I just couldn't in the end.

And so they, in fact we should come back to beavers, because that's what Voltaire was particularly rude about, beavers. But they claimed this giant swathe of north america new france britain had a tiny little stream a little sort of bit up the east coast the colonies on the east coast but there were lots more people in was ever densely populated um and inevitably lots of those people started crossing the allegheny mountains into the pennsylvania back country knocking into french forts um french traders and you get friction on the colonial frontier which is very familiar later in the into the Pennsylvania backcountry, knocking into French forts, French traders,

and you get friction on the colonial frontier, which is very familiar later in the 19th century. But that starts the Seven Years' War. You get fighting between Britain and France. And I've got to say, Perfidious Albion, extremely unimpressive. I mean, you get this. I hope, as you're hearing, by the way, that Thackeray was completely wrong. The Seven Years' War is very easy to understand. We haven't quite come to Europe yet, but in North America, it's quite straightforward. And then we haven't talked about Frederick the Great, which we must do.

But in North America, there is fighting. And then, amazingly, the Royal Navy, France sends reinforcements to North America and the Royal Navy ambushes them, ambushes them, a brilliant Admiral Boscawan in 1755, captures two troop trips and fires on them before a declaration of war i mean it's pretty naughty stuff so we've got india and we've got america

but then we also have europe and you mentioned frederick the great and it's kind of interesting actually dominic thinking about it in this podcast frederick the great appeared in our very first podcast and he's popped up like a kind of specter on the margins yeah and he's he's i think i said before that that of all the kind of the the remarkable figures in history that i know very little about he's the one that i really want to know more about you keep working him in when he's not i mean you got him into you probably got him into the eunuchs podcast did you i think i missed him out of that that. But in the story of the Seven Years' War, Dan, Frederick the Great is kind of the key player on the Continental War.

He is. So tell us about him and what's going on there. Well, you're sounding now like the Duke of Newcastle, who was the Prime Minister in the Seven Years' War. Well, when the British finally found a stable governing coalition during the Seven Years' War, a very, very successful administration, one of the most successful administrations in British history. The Duke of Newcastle handled the money stuff, and William Pitt was then free to spend astonishing amounts of money,

like more money than the British have ever spent before on violence, waging war on several continents. The Duke of Newcastle, however, said, my price for doing that is I need to be focused on the war on the continent. So while you're stripping the French and later the Spanish of their colonies around the world, I need to support Frederick the Great in Europe. This is where it gets slightly complicated.

Britain had Hanover. Hanover is this incredibly hard-to-defend state in North and West Germany. The King George II is the elector of Hanover, the Prince-Elector of Hanover. Hanover is this incredibly hard-to-defend state in North and West Germany. The King George II is the elector of Hanover, the Prince-Elector of Hanover. He says to Duke of Newcastle, you can run my administration, but for God's sake, keep the French out of Hanover. I want you to look after Hanover. So Duke of Newcastle says, fine, we will flip this great diplomatic, we have the so-called diplomatic revolution. We will pay the Prussians to protect Hanover from the French, which means unfortunately going to war against our, well, it means being on the other side from our old allies, the Austrians. So you've got Maria Theresa and her Austrian empire,

Austria-Hungary, and the French fighting Frederick the Great, who's trying to enlarge Prussia. Over the course of Frederick the Great's life, Prussia doubles in size. Prussia becomes the thing that will eventually, as we know, go on to dominate Germany with some small consequences for 20th century history. And the Seven Years' War is part of Prussia. Frederick's view of an expanded Prussia being tested by fire. The Swedes invaded, the Russians invaded, Berlin was occupied, Maria Theresa's Austrians got their act together briefly and were able to inflict a few defeats on Frederick the Great. So Frederick the Great is fighting this unbelievably complicated war on all fronts in Europe, funded by the Brits, paid for by the Brits. He also dispatches one of his rather good generals to look after Hanover, and they do that very effectively. And Frederick

wins some stunning victories. The reason this war is completely different to the War of Austrian Succession, which has gone before, and various other wars, for example, the French Revolutionary Wars that almost kill William Pitt, they're very frustrating. They can't find anyone to beat Napoleon on the continent initially. What's brilliant about the Seven Years' War for Britain is they are able to do the things they're best at. They're able to send this Royal Navy slowly developing a marked advantage over, technically, in terms of their training, in terms of their tactical ability, over their competing European navies, the Spanish and the French. They're slowly getting qualitatively better, and they're quantitatively much better

because they spend more money on it. So they're allowed to go and do that. They capture all sorts of colonies everywhere, from Cuba to the Philippines extraordinary the greatest run of success in British history although with a predictably British slow start which we could also come to it's fascinating this of second world war Napoleon it was first of all there's always a kind of there's also a warming up period required to the British war which is so interesting which has probably got something to do with the channel and the space that Britain has to sort of take its time. Anyway, but on the continent, Frederick the Great is able to defeat all comers in the most extraordinarily dramatic series of campaigns.

And so it is said at the time that the British Empire in North America was won on the battlefields of Germany. So it's this extraordinary combination. But Dan, we have troops in Europe too, don't we? Aren't they commanded by the Marquess of Granby? Aren't all those pubs named after the... You know, he's only remembered as a pub now, but at the time he's, isn't he leading our troops in Europe? Am I wrong?

Pub signs are very, the Seven Years' War is more around us than we might think. So, you know, there are pub signs, the Prince of Prussia, the Marquess of Granby, all those pub signs are anything to do with Wolfe. There were more pubs about General Wolfe in the past, but those pub signs are all, yes, from this period. There was a battle, a great forgotten battle of British history. It's another one of the, we could talk about the year 1759, Annus Mirabilis, the most successful year in British history, when the Battle of Minden took place,

when the French were decisively defeated on the continent. But there were many British forces there not under under kind of coalition control this kind of prussian coalition um command and and so it doesn't it isn't it's weird it doesn't it's not one of those sort of british battles that really excites but it's hugely important what it does is it basically pins down french forces in europe stops the French doing what they usually do, which is get completely hammered in the colonies in India, in North America. They lose Louisbourg, for example, the huge fortress at the mouth of the St. Lawrence River in the War of the Austro-History. But then the French basically invade Belgium and the Netherlands and various other places. And Britain, in order to restore the Bancs out, in order to kind of compress France into a manageable size,

this great and enduring problem of English and British strategy makers, policy makers, in order to compress France back down, you have to sacrifice all these colonial gains. The key difference with the Seven Years' War is you can keep more of your colonial gains at the end because Frederick the Great and this army in Hanover have have have catastrophic defeat in france in europe they've the bit that the french are usually good at they've done badly at so they've got no chips on the table at the end of the at the end of the day okay should we should we focus on the year of victories yeah let's do

that that's kind of feel why not um so so this is a year of absolutely storming british victories over the french um dan give us all a patriotic thrill by bye bye we don't have any french listeners do we tom not that i'm aware of maybe not well apologies if we do um well not anymore by going through um the full scale of of what happens in that year. So there's a very odd and predictive... As I say, there's this kind of classic British slow start. They lose Menorca. And Admiral Bing gets hanged to encourage the others, doesn't he? Well, he gets shot on his own quarter-deck.

Voltaire quips to encourage the others. And things go badly in North America. The Marquis de Montcalm, you may have seen the film Last of the Mexicans, he manages to beat the French out of Fort William Henry. Basically, there's an invasion corridor between what is now the USA and France, up Lake Champlain, this wonderful sort of, it links Albany to Montreal, basically. And so for hundreds of years, the French and British, of course, overlooked but fundamentally important Native American allies,

have marched up and down this invasion corridor and it like a tide coming sort of receding and advancing and the French march down they successfully take Fort William Henry that many of the surrendering garrison are massacred as depicted and Daniel Lewis does his stuff so that's a kind of and and Britain also the Mohicans and all that that's the Mohicans uh yeah I should have mentioned right dropping Daniel de Luyssen there was probably slightly obscure. Then Edward Braddock and George Washington again. They're annihilated. One of the greatest defeats in British history in 1755.

So George Washington seems absolutely terrible. He's terrible. He's terrible. Listen, we could do another podcast about George Washington. I mean, my God. Yeah, okay. He just rushes around losing battles. But you know what? He's young, Tom. He's's young he makes his mistakes early and he learns a lot he learns a lot okay and then he performs reasonably after that uh and he and that

should have been the end of him really um if it hadn't been for the bloody post seven years war fiasco but anyway we'll come to that we'll come to that so won't we? We'll come to that. So then in 1759, everything kind of falls into place. And the reason is that it's money. It's money. It's the giant spending by the British government, the famous fiscal military states that the 18th century historians like to talk about, where these states have come into being, very modern states, where you can borrow at low interest rates because you've got a faintly reliable –

the lenders are suitably confident that you're going to get that money back. There is a legal system, there's a political, you can seek redress within Parliament. It is far from being a very modern, sort of completely, you know, brilliant, sort of a very modern state in which things are perfectly transparent. But it is groping towards that place so britain can borrow even though it's a smaller economy uh it can borrow titanic amounts of money which is unavailable to the french because they're mad uh you know ancien regime despots who just choose not to pay it back or or spend it on stupid things like enormous palaces whereas whereas the british can say to people lend us money we're going to spend it on ships that will protect trade and you will

then benefit from that trade and we will make money on the tax that derives from that trade so there's a there's a system that works so so Pitt and Newcastle and the British government are able to send huge amounts of ships and men to all these theatres at once that's what's so extraordinary about this they're able to keep the war going in Europe whilst also dispatching the biggest expeditionary force in in history really to North America um and and. And that means that by 1758, there's a bit of a stuttering start. But 1759, it all comes into place. A young British officer called James Cook, again, interesting character here, grows up in a kind of illiterate, very marginal family. He goes to sea um on the coal trade newcastle

supplying london with coal this kind of giant industrial city in the south accessing the saudi arabia of energy in the 18th century which is the coal fields northumberland um he learns his trade there and brutally difficult navigational pilotage conditions he then joins the navy volunteers join the navy on the outbreak and is rapidly promoted joins as an ordinary seaman, but rapidly promoted, becomes an officer. So again, the Royal Navy, an engine of meritocracy in this period. Imperfect, but key to its success. James Cook creates the first chart of the St. Lawrence River. St. Lawrence River, vast, complicated river running into the heart of Canada. The French never bothered, they didn't really bother defending it. They said, oh, it's impossible.

Only the pilots now to get up and down. You know, you need the local knowledge passed down from the sun. James Cook says, no, no, no. He creates the first chart. And the British astonish the French by arriving in Quebec, the capital of their empire in New France, in front of the walls of Quebec with a gigantic fleet and with a huge number of troops on board and stay there the whole summer. It's actually quite a complicated summer. And it's as Tom, who's one of the only, who's one of the three people on this earth

outside my immediate family that read my book 10 years ago, for which I'm eternally grateful, Tom. I've read your book, Dan. And so they eventually take... It's good. It's a really good book. Come on. Why do you think nobody read it? Well, because I have access to data. uh data no listen we're not getting it unjustly neglected books i'm sure you're right up the bestseller list again yeah exactly okay so they so they

capture quebec eventually absolute nightmare terrifyingly difficult they almost all die of typhus and dysentery and the rest of it. They all fall out with each other. James Wolfe is deeply unpopular with his fellow commanders and subordinates. It's not arguably not really his plan, in fact, that they eventually land at this

very lightly defended... They use... It's amphibious. It's what Britain does really well. It's what they've done well in India. It's what they're going to do well in the Caribbean. It's what they do well all the way up until deep into the 20th century. They do it in China in the 19th century. They use this extraordinary navy. And the navy, we think of the navy sailing around big battleships in deep water.

The navy, this is about small boats in very shallow water penetrating deep into the heart of continents. They land. These are highlanders and they scale up the heights of Abraham. They catch the French by surprise and they defeat the French army on the heart of continents. They land. These are Highlanders, and they scale up the heights of Abraham. They catch the French by surprise, and they defeat the French army on the plains of Abraham. And Wolf is killed. That's the thing you always should do in life

if you're a commander. Nelson does it. Wellington fails to do it stupidly. Gordon does it. And he's killed at the moment of victory. And he's deified. He also has these fantastic lines, doesn't he? What is it?

Now God be praised, I can die in peace, or something, when he's told the French are running before him. Is this true? And he should be painted looking like a martyr. Well, he's then painted by Benjamin West, who famously then later paints Nelson. And that becomes, I think, the most widely distributed image of the 18th century. I mean, it is, rule rule britannia this is a this is a kind of crucible for um a britishness that because that we that we recognize you know this is a kind of a tempting to use the word nationalist but

that's that's probably a little bit anachronistic but it's it's this idea that britain that god was an englishman that britain had Exactly, and we've all read Linda Colley, and Royal Britannia becomes... And Magna Carta is displayed by the way, during this period, famously. The British Museum is a-founded, and Magna Carta is put on a huge, big public display in the British Museum, and it's just

labelled as the Bulwark of Our Liberties. And so there's this link between monumental warfare, British success on the battlefield, there's an Anglo-Scottish element here, because lots of these British troops are former Jacobite soldiers who are now fighting for the British crown. And Highlanders. Highlanders, exactly. So there's a really interesting kind of British story emerging here. And then this idea of kind of English-British exceptionalism as well through Magna Carta, through museums, all that kind of stuff.

So it's really interesting. Then, one of the most remarkable moments of 1759, as well as, by the way, Frederick the Great is at the moment in Europe contemplating suicide. He's doing so badly. Like Hitler, right? So this is the bit that Hitler in the bunker

is reading up on Frederick the Great and getting inspiration from it. Right, because Frederick the Great had lost Berlin by this stage. He's lost half his army in one particular battle. It is absolutely, he's been crushed, but he's been kept in the field by British money. And then the most extraordinary thing ever, which is the Tsar dies, the Tsarina dies. And this new Tsar comes in who just likes Frederick the Great and just unilaterally leaves his alliance with Maria Theresa.

I mean, Maria Theresa's one of the most long-suffering and remarkable women in the history of the world, and that's up against some pretty tough competition. And she, as she's on the verge of victory, this idiotic, childlike Russian Tsar, reverses. Exactly. He is then got rid of by catherine the great uh his wife but not before he's lent a big chunk of his army to frederick and and basically got frederick

out of the out of trouble so so europe's just stable enough for the british to mop up everywhere else they capture guard loot they capture a chunk of west africa slave trading ports in west africa uh and uh slave wasn't slave trading slave gathering fortresses in west Africa, and slave, wasn't slave trading, slave gathering fortresses in West Africa. And then at the end of the year, just when things couldn't have gone any better at all, you get this bizarre, you get this extraordinary moment, the greatest naval battle in British history, which people should know about and they don't, which is the Battle of Kiberon Bay, which Sir Edward Hawke, I mean, Nelson, dare I, okay, listen, I mean, I'm a big Nelson

Fowler's the next guy. I don't think I- He's about to knock Nelson. He's gearing up to knock Nelson. This is the excitement of podcasts. They're so daring. You just don't know, do you? You don't know what's going to happen next.

Nelson commanded a detached fleet. He was not in charge of the Channel Squadron. He could do what he liked. It was fine. He was down in the Mediterranean. He could take a few gambles. Sir Edward Hawke is commanding the Royal Naval Fleet responsible for

protecting the british isles against french invasion okay and yet and he finds that the french fleet have sailed they're going to join up with their transports big problem with geography by the way is there is no port this is why god is in fact an englishman there is no port in northern france which can have a large army sitting in it and is deep enough for battleships all to be at the same time you have breast which is bad by the way for the wind but you have breast but there is not enough food in that tiny tip of britain you think about where breast is on the tip of britain it's bloody miles away from anywhere else in france you can't take enough food there so you've got this permanent problem with trying to invade england which you have to keep the transports contain the soldiers

in a different place the big battleships they've got rubbish harbours in northern France, which is why, following the Seven Years' War, the King of France decides to try and build Cherbourg as a massive seawall to create a port capable of taking on the British and bankrupt the French regime by doing that. And everyone said he was throwing rocks into the sea and throwing his money into the sea. Anyway, we'll come back to that. So the fleet has sailed.

They're meeting up with the transports. Hawke intercepts them. And in November, in a rising gale in november off a brutal coast of quiberon bay famously littered with shoals and rocks and inlets hawk says cram on more sail we are going to sail into quiberon bay uncharted territory basically for the brits we're going to follow those french who are hiding in there they think they're getting away from us as the as this autumnal gale is rising as the sun is setting and at sunset hawk scores this astonishing victory against the french ships capsizing in the wind just amazing story in amongst the rocks of key bronbe and dan is that like is that because

it's it's it's like um going up the st lawrence river that the navy have the charts that enable them to negotiate the shoals or is it just kind oh, we're going to take a punt on this? It's a bit of both. First of all, it's certainly like the Navy going up the St. Lawrence River, a confidence in the seamanship of your naval ratings and officers. What is also happening is for the first successful time in the Seven Years' War, which is astonishingly important and a dramatic innovation, is all of the, again again the modernity of this state its ability to create systems you for the first time in ever you have a you have a successful blockade of french ports you you don't just say we're going to keep an eye on the french and when they come out we're going to fight them

you say they will not leave port we will blockade them in for not just weeks but for months and years so their sailors will not be trained their ships will rot at that you know they will lose their morale this is this is this is the first yes try out of a strategy that's been used in the polionic wars first world war it's tried earlier but after three weeks these ships come back everyone's got scurvy it's just the crews are falling you destroy your own fleet by blockading that's the problem dan we need to take a break our listeners will be they need a they need to have a swig of grog or something yeah comfort break and then they can return and a lemon but but i think i mean we've covered we basically

we've covered the the sweep of the of the war um and when we come back perhaps we've got some questions and we can try and put all this in in the in the slightly broader perspective when your visitors go for a drink, let them remember the toast of the Royal Navy that derives straight from this period. May our officers have the eye of a hawk and the heart of a wolf. A splendid note, a splendid note on which to go to a commercial break. I'm Marina Hyde. And I'm Richard Osman. And together we host The Rest Is Entertainment. It's your weekly fix of entertainment news, reviews, splash of showbiz gossip. And on our Q&A, we pull back the curtain on entertainment and we tell you how it all works. We have just launched our Members Club. If you want ad-free listening, bonus episodes and early access to live tickets, head to therestisentertainment.com. That's therestisentertainment.com.

Hello, welcome back to The Rest is History and The Seven Years' War. We're with Dan Snow talking about it. Dan, so you gave us a brilliant account of the course of the war and we were majoring on the scale of British triumphs. And for generations, these triumphs have been kind of iconic. So we talked about the death of Wolfe,

Battle of Quiberon Bay, also the Battle of Plassey, where Clive of India kind of basically wins, as it turns out, India for the nascent British Empire. So great scenes that have long been celebrated. However, I think it's fair to say that the idea that this is necessarily great for the world is now more contested than it was. So the idea that Clive of India has a statue in Whitehall, there are grumblings about it. Do you think that that is one of the reasons why the Seven Years' War has been generally forgotten. And is it kind of now problematic in a way that perhaps it wasn't for the earlier generations?

The robust voice of Middle England is grumbling away in the background. But, I mean, that's the kind of issue, isn't it? That it's more complicated now, perhaps, than it was to celebrate someone like Wolfe or Andy Clyde. Yes, you're exactly right. I think there's two issues. One is it has fallen out of favour because it has been succeeded by other great wars, greater wars, which inevitably,

like the way that Churchill obscures Lloyd George, who obscures Pitt the Younger and Palmerston. You know, I think in terms of historical memory, we kind of only have place for one particular kind of national military endeavour. And of course, Second World War looms so large today. But I expect that Second World War will go through this process that 70 Years War has gone through. I mean, our parents grew up, I mean, the 70 Years War was essential.

Wolf, I mean, G.A. Henty books. I had a bizarre upbringing of reading strange Edwardian books that were left around my grandma's house. Dan, you're not alone. Well, I think I'm among friends here, but I was kind of radicalised. I'm having to un-radicalise myself carefully as I enter middle age. I'm doing the opposite to many people's journeys. But I, Wolfe in Quebec, Clive in India were foundational stories people. And in a way way because they were

I mean, Wolfe's victory at Quebec in short order delivered the whole of New France I mean very briefly, before the American Revolution we should remember, I mean the whole of North America virtually, apart from the new Spain which stretched up into A question from the splendidly maritime

sounding Jacob Hawkins If England had lost the Seven Years' War, do we still get the British Empire and or the War of Independence? So let's leave the War of Independence to one side. But the British Empire, I mean, basically, this is the war that creates the British Empire. As we recognise it, as the 19th century will understand it. So therefore, that's problematic in itself. That's not something for unalloyed celebration, which it was 100 years ago. There is this issue.

I mentioned Martinique, which is captured. guadeloupe i mentioned captured martinique in 1762 west west africa senegal you know these places in west africa are captured that's about the slave trade that's about the slave the trade and enslaved human beings vastly and amazingly amazingly there's this great moment where france has a canada or guadeloupe moment which has become a kind of celebrated thing in international um by um international affairs kind of studies, is that there's this moment when the French have to decide, do they ask for Canada back at the negotiating table or Guadeloupe? And they choose Guadeloupe, amazingly, the second largest country on earth now with vast oil, incredible wealth. It was rejected by Canada. People like Voltaire said it was a few acres of frozen snow and it was just the beavers.

It was just the hats that it was the only thing useful for so and that's because sugar was grown the super commodity of the 18th century sugar was grown by enslaved people on those islands hugely hugely profitable the trade derived the money the trade the the cash flowing into venture capitalist pockets in Britain as we have all rehearsed now we all know where the slave trade was hugely important within that development of the early of 18th century British economy, politics, society, all that stuff. So that's why it's difficult to celebrate. We now know more about Robert Clive. I mean, he was, I'm afraid, an unattractive character. He... Struggled with his mental health. I think that's how you'd rehabilitate him, isn't it?

Sorry, absolutely, that's correct. You'd say he was a martyr to his mental health. I think that's how you'd rehabilitate him, isn't it? Sorry, absolutely, that's correct. You'd say he was a martyr to his mental health. fighters it was just a gigantic bribery was you know there was there was cash exchange between um rogue uh indian um sort of magnates and east india company and and people like that so it is it is harder to yeah of course do you do you think there's a case for saying that the the british empire and the conquest of vast swathes of the world was kind of incidental to the core british ambition which was to beat the french uh i think it was incidental this the core British ambition, which was to beat the French? I think it was incidental. This is a really wonderful question, because in terms of getting territory, as you guys know, painting the world pink was always quite unpopular by huge swathes of policymakers and people in Whitehall. It's really expensive. You get massive blowback.

So for one great example, after the Seven Years' War, you get the British government say, right, we might now have conquered technically this bloody enormous area in North America, but they banned their British settlers, their North American settlers, from settling in the back country of Pennsylvania, which is a huge reason for the American Revolution. Because the Brits go, the last thing we want to do is control a kind of trans-American state. It's going to cost a ton of money. And the locals hate us.

And you get this Pontiac's Revolt. You get North American natives fighting the Brits and fighting these settlers. And so it is, as the great expression, that British Empire in Africa was acquired in a kind of a fit of absence of mind, when all their treasure was to protect the Suez Canal. So I think there is an element that Europe, a good old fashioned sense of power politics within Europe,

and also the British wanted to get rich. And in those days, getting rich had a mercantilist element to it. It was thought you had to control the islands of the Caribbean to take advantage of this trade in sugar. It should be British ships carrying that sugar. They should be crewed by British crews. They should use British ports. They should cross ship to other ships that then export it to Europe. So, yes, to beat the French, but it was about money and economic clout as much as beating them on a battlefield.

But, Dan, there's this argument, isn't there? Brendan Sims has this argument, Cambridge historian, that the way we think about Britain and its world role and the evolution of the empire and the Seven Years' War as a foundational moment in that is all wrong

because we're looking at Canada and we're looking at India and he argues that the action was all really in Europe and that Europe was what mattered to British policymakers, that we've sort of written that out of history and that we're too obsessed with the kind of global Britain,

and that we don't realise how much the establishment cared about Europe above all. Could I just mix that point in with a question from Stephen Clarke, good friend of the show? Did the Seven Years' War establish Prussia as a great power? So that is always the other aspect of the Seven Years' War to keep in mind, is the Prussian dimension. Well, Tom, well done, Stephen Clarke, and well done, Tom,

for that very lovely segue of marrying everyone together. We're all singing in harmony now, but Dominic, you're absolutely right. And of course, what's interesting, we all, in 1910, when the British Empire did cover 20, well, 1920, when it covered 25% of the Earth's landmass, clearly these campaigns were talking about General Wolfe in Quebec, feels vitally important in that story. Now that we're looking at a Europe dominated by Germany, and a world in which the British Empire no longer matters or exists, we suddenly think,

oh, you know what, maybe that whole Frederick the Great thing was a bit more important than we were noticing, which of course is exactly what King George II and the Duke of Newcastle were primarily focused on. They were focused on the balance of power in Europe. They wanted to access, they did not want a hegemonic power emerging in Europe. They assumed it would be the French, and they wanted therefore Frederick the Great, this kind of useful North German counterweight to Austro-French power in Europe. Now, of course, Prussia doubles in size during his rule. Funnily enough, during the Seven Years' War, it actually doesn't. It's more like he's tested by the most astonishing.

As I said at the beginning of the podcast, he's hardened by fire in the Seven Years' War. He gained Silesia at the beginning of the War of Austrian Succession, which actually, as you know, is probably the most important thing to ever tap in the history of Europe, because that's where the rot sets in. I mean, if you want to, you know, Prussia, the most important thing to ever tap in the history of Europe, because that's where the rot sets in. I mean, if you want to, you know, Prussia, the end of Austria-Hungary, the slow decline. I mean, him seizing Silesia in 1740 from the young Austrian new ruler, Maria Theresa, is the moment when everything turns.

It's the fulcrum. There's probably some Julius Caesar moment you could give me about him becoming Pontifex, whatever it was, Tom. But that's kind of the moment. And the Seven Years' War reinforces that conquest maria theresa goes all out she bankrupts she sells her jewelry she goes all out to get silesia back she defends bohemia but she and she doesn't get silesia back frederick's allowed to keep his gains in europe and they will expand as he starts to

partition poland later on so so prussia now and sitting now in the 21st century when when germany is a significant thing and it is derived from that prussian uh that prussian experiment that prussian success the 18th century you can say yeah we should probably be thinking more about europe um than in the seven years war it i mean it is amazing to think of that to think of of the the kind of the the europe of of today as being set in the Seven Years' War, but also the spread of Anglophone culture, the fact that the United States of America speaks English, that India is an English-speaking country. Imagine if Canada was French as a counterweight, as a linguistic, cultural counterweight to the US, Tom. You know, if there was a Canadian Hollywood that waswood that was french speaking i mean well like well the

world would be utterly culture would be so yeah dominic samberg i sense is not a fan of the wonderful and very very dynamic montreal film scene uh and uh a film scene of which i was hitherto unaware barbarian invasions is one of the great films as a canadian citizen i don't know but but you're right and of course bismarck brilliant brilliant. My favourite quote about the Seven Years' War was Bismarck. The Anglophone stuff, the fact that people wazz on about Magna Carta more outside Britain than they do inside Britain. The fact that

the Australians, the Indians, the Americans have got parliamentary traditions that date, that all stem from this fun little island of ours. All of that stuff, of course, the Seven Years' War makes that very important. And Bismarck island of ours all of that stuff of course is fun the seven years war makes that very important and bismarck brilliantly says at the end of the 19th century bismarck as you know he retired to his estate kaiser wilhelm kind of kicked him out

and he was in a foul mood for the rest of his life and a young journalist i think it was went and said you know what do you think will be the most important you know when we're looking at the new the 20th century what what what is it that will really determine the course of the 20th century and bismarck answers immediately the fact that north america speaks english and he's exactly right you know the great the monumental battles of the 20th century first against um imperial germany then against fascism and then against communism are it is the it is that coalition of of of uh english speaking anglo-saxon capitalist economies that gather together and are able to overcome those and that is absolutely essential dan you are the arthur bryant of history clearly with this

english-speaking democracy sorry i know it's i know daniel hannan is listening he's getting a serious uh but but but but let's just, let's, we're coming to a close. So I've got two questions here, both of which, of course, put this back into an 18th century perspective. One of them is from Dr. Tony O'Donnell, and he asks, is the Seven Years' War,

the French and Indian War, America's forgotten creation myth, Washington and others leading a war that later taxes sought to repay and the colonials rejected the cost of their own defense um and then we have a great comment from uh jim zoo um lord newcastle was generally regarded as a buffoon in part over his staunch support for the anglo-austrian alliance that blew up and dragged europe into war 20 years later lord north lost america because of diplomatic isolation. Who's the greater buffoon in hindsight? So I guess both of those, that the roots of the the French go away and decide to try and compete with Britain at sea and spend unimaginable amounts of money doing so, like I said earlier, and directly contributes towards their bankruptcy. But also, the disaster of the American Revolution within Britain around the peace treaty, is what we don't want to do is become the new Louis XIV. We don't want to be the baddies, you know, that great sketch. Are we the bad guys?

So they were terribly nervous about appearing to be a European hegemon. And I think they largely failed in that because they thought they'd give a bit more back to France on the peace treaty. That would avoid them being unpopular. They actually kind of failed at both. They neither held on to everything, nor did they stop this overwhelming oppression. Britain was now the problem in Europe. And so, for example, the Dutch, other European nations, when it comes to the War of Independence, they're either neutral, pretty hostile neutral, or they back the Americans.

But in a more direct sense... Did the Portuguese stay with us? The Portuguese in the American Revolutionary War, I don't know about that. We'll check that out. Yeah. I'm sure they did. I don't know. They would never let us down, the Portuguese.

The Portuguese would never let us down, no. And I think, but in a very direct sense, of course, the American, the Seven Years' War is the American foundation myth, because you do that terrible thing, which is you remove the threat. And the American colonies had lived under the

dagger of French and Native American, Native Americans only, you know, miles from the eastern, the big cities of the eastern seaboard. And the American colonies had lived under the dagger of French and Native American. Native Americans only, you know, miles from the big cities of the eastern seaboard. Montcalm comes very close to the big settlements of the eastern seaboard. The French are now gone. Britain controls the continent. The Native Americans have no allies anymore. They are terribly bereft. And they are then, as we know, an awful story, dystopian story, what happens to them. And so there's this great quote from an American, a British governor,

of a colonial governor, and he said, you know, what did British gain? And I think he said from the most glorious and successful war which she has ever engaged upon. And that she gained an empire that she was unable to defend, maintain or govern, because she then had this giant empire that she couldn't pay for, and Britain tried to tax the American colonists for their protection. In my opinion, entirely reasonably, all right? Anyway, so a standing military force was now required to protect this

giant empire. They fell out with the Americans, and the Americans looked around and went, hold on a minute, I don't think we need the Brits anymore. You know, we do not need these guys protecting us. We have got all the advantages now of this giant hinterland let's shift the brits so so in a very real sense so massive ingratitude massive gratitude his tax dodge isn't it i mean that's what it is yeah well and and they all the virginia planters are enjoying this well all the we just lost that 20% of our audience. A tax dodge. No, don't worry, he'll come back.

And a tax dodge... It was not only a tax dodge, it was also a giant debt... You know, they didn't... The Virginia Planters, they're terribly indebted, Virginia Planters, London, basically went,

we're not going to pay our debts now, we're going independent. So, yes, it was. Right, and on that sombre note, that sombre and disgraceful note i we've brought the seven years war to an end we've demonstrated that thackeray was talking nonsense yeah it's perfectly possible to explain the course of the seven years war tom we must never have we must never have dan snow back on this program again that is that is for

sure he's been so rude yeah he, he's been rude about our audience. No, more than worth it. More than worth it, Dan. Can't thank you enough. And I hope you've enjoyed the podcast. We will see you next week. Dominic, I think we're actually doing the French Revolution, aren't we? French Revolution and food.

And food, yeah. Not in the same podcast. French Revolution is a kind of natural sequel to this. Yes, so what's happened next? And I think we'll do that. We're going to do that sans guest. Just us.

Yeah, just us. Sans Dan. I'm going to tune into that. That's going to be fantastic. Thanks so much, Dan. Thanks very much for listening. We will see you soon. Thank you, everybody.

Bye-bye. Bye. Thanks for listening to The Rest Is History. For bonus episodes, early access, ad-free listening, and access to our chat community, please sign up at restishistorypod.com. That's restishistorypod.com.