The Rest Is History - 508. America in '68: Nightmare in Vietnam (Part 1)

Episode Date: October 28, 2024

"Tonight I want to speak to you of peace in Vietnam and Southeast Asia.” On the night of Sunday, 31st of March 1968, President Lyndon B. Johnson, after announcing an end to the bombing of North Vietnam, stunned the world by revealing he would not seek the democratic nomination for that year’s presidential election. The seemingly never-ending Vietnam War had already made LBJ hugely unpopular with his progressive base. But now, facing challenges from Eugene McCarthy, the ambiguously anti-war senator from Minnesota, and Robert “Bobby” Kennedy, heir to the Kennedy throne, Johnson had decided to bow out. And now, as the war slowed for a moment, the Democrats would have to decide on the best candidate to take on a certain Richard M. Nixon…  Join Tom and Dominic in the first episode of our six part series on America in 1968, as they look at the stories of Lyndon B. Johnson, Eugene McCarthy, and how the Vietnam War would come to define them both. _______ LIVE SHOWS *The Rest Is History LIVE in the U.S.A.* If you live in the States, we've got some great news: Tom and Dominic will be performing throughout America in November, with shows in San Francisco, L.A., Chicago, Philadelphia, Washington D.C., Boston and New York. Tickets on sale now at TheRestIsHistory.com _______ Twitter: @TheRestHistory @holland_tom @dcsandbrook Producer: Theo Young-Smith Assistant Producer: Anouska Lewis Executive Producers: Jack Davenport + Tony Pastor Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Thank you for listening to The Rest is History. For weekly bonus episodes, ad-free listening, early access to series and membership of our much-loved chat community, go to therestishistory.com and join the club. That is the restishistory.com. When great waves break, there is a moment when it seems as if everything in their way must be destroyed. Even those who have watched the water rising, and guessed the force of the wind and the tides driving it, are shocked by the vehemence of the impact. But in that same moment, the destructive force of the wave is temporarily spent. Whatever has been unable to withstand it is safe in the slack waters of the trough until the next wave breaks.

For nearly five years, since the assassination of President Kennedy, two long waves of danger had been racing toward the safe and settled shore where most Americans live. The danger of war from Southeast Asia and the danger of rebellion in the heart of American cities. The first week of April 1968 was the week the waves broke. So those were the opening lines of the suitably named An American Melodrama, a book about the presidential election of 1968 by three journalists working for the Sunday Times here in London, hence the very portentous British accent with which I did that reading, Dominic. You have put down in

your notes, 1968, the most tumultuous year in modern American history. And you would know because this is absolutely your subject, isn't it? This is the background to your doctorate. You know everything about this. And on that level, it's very exciting. We're doing 1968 in the US. But also, of course, we're doing this against the backdrop of the presidential election in 2024, which will be ongoing as these episodes go out. So perfect timing in every way. And there are loads of parallels, which we'll be exploring in this series. Hello, everybody. Yes, this is a tremendously exciting subject.

So as you say, Tom, this is the subject I wrote my doctorate about. That book that you quoted, An American Melodrama is a brilliant book, actually. One of the best books ever written, I think, about American politics. It was by three Sunday Times journalists. And one of them, Godfrey Hodgson, was actually a great inspiration to me when I was doing my studies on this. He had a brilliant contact book, knew loads of people from the Kennedy campaign, the Johnson White House and so on. He was able to open his contact book and I got to interview all these people. It was brilliant and it's such a rich subject because this was a year for people who don't know why we've

chosen this particular year to do a series about. It was the year that was the bloodiest year of the Vietnam War. It saw the fall of President Lyndon Johnson who seemed all-conquering, you know, unassailable. It was the year that Martin Luther King was assassinated, a moment that was followed by riots in American cities. It saw the sort of doomed romantic campaign of Robert Kennedy and his assassination in Los Angeles, California, where Tom, we will be arriving ourselves in a doomed campaign of our own to do a Rest is History live show. Although hopefully we won't get shot in the kitchens.

Yeah, I'm not going to go into the kitchens of any hotels just in case. It's a real sort of landmark year in American political history because it sees the emergence of a new kind of right-wing populism in the form of Governor George C. Wallace, who mounts an independent campaign for the presidency, which is better than any independent campaign for, what, 50 years or more, and is incredibly influential. There is then this extraordinary set piece of the riots at the Chicago Democratic Convention, a clash between the Chicago police and anti-war demonstrators, the so-called Yippies. I love a Yippie.

Played out on national television before an audience of tens of millions. And then finally, as if all this is not dramatic enough, the year ends with one of the great comebacks in American history. The comeback of Richard Nixon, who'd been written off a few years earlier, but wins the presidency in quite controversial circumstances to become one of the most consequential and indeed controversial presidents of modern times. So it's an extraordinary, I think it's the succession of events piled up on top of one another. Do you think also, I mean, speaking as a non-specialist, it's also the fact that the soundtrack is brilliant.

Of course. So you have this amazing music, it's got hippies, all that kind of stuff. Absolutely. And you know what it makes me think of Dominic? The list of all the things that you were describing. It makes me think of one of the big singles of that year, which is Jimi Hendrix's all along the watch tower. There's too much confusion.

I can't get no relief. Yeah. It does feel like that. I mean, some of these events that we're describing, so the fall of Johnson, the assassination of King, the assassination of Kennedy, these happen within days or weeks of one another. At the end of the year, Time magazine said it had been, and I quote, one damn thing after another, indeed, one tragic, surprising and perplexing

thing after another, and it said that events had been moving at the pace of an avant-garde movie edited by Mad Clutter. And this is an age when there's a lot of avant-garde movies with mad clutter. Yeah. It's exactly as you say, it's the sense of a succession of events, each one of which would be enough for one year, but played out against a soundtrack of the doors and Jimi Hendrix. All of that extraordinary music, kind of outlandish fashion, protests and universities, college

campuses, all of that kind of thing. People saying man a lot. Yes, and terrible, terrible slang. Yeah. I think brilliant slang actually. So in today's episode, we'll be talking about the agony of the Vietnam War and the fall of Lyndon Johnson. So perhaps we should set the scene by picking up from the last time we went to 60s America,

which was our series that we did about the assassination of President Kennedy in 1963, which of course, those Sunday Times journalists mentioned. So listeners to that series will remember that one of the final scenes was that moment aboard Air Force One, where Lyndon Johnson, standing next to a blood stained Jackie Kennedy, swears the oath of office and becomes Kennedy's successor. And Johnson is a brilliant character. He's like a character from Suetonius's The Twelve Caesars. Well, nothing wrong with that. So to give people a sense of who Johnson is, Johnson turned 60 in 1968. He came from the Texas Hill country. His father was a kind of failed farmer who'd had to sell the family ranch and the poverty, the humiliation entered into his soul.

So he is somebody who rather like Richard Nixon. I was going to say, I mean, it's quite a Nixon quality to that. Definitely. He is driven by this insecurity and this feeling of humiliation all his life. He became a teacher and he genuinely had a social conscience. He's very moved by the poverty and the deprivation of the Mexican children that he teaches down there in Texas. So that's important to emphasize because the image that you get of him is a man who is

motivated by a kind of ruthless lust for power. Which is true. But not just by that. No, exactly. The classic thing that American historians say about Lyndon Johnson, I mean, the one word they always use is tragic. They say he is a man of tremendous gifts, of extraordinary political talent, probably unmatched among post-war presidents. Because he's a fixer, isn't he, before he becomes a vice president and then president. He's a brilliant, brilliant fixer. but he is also a monster as we will go on to discuss.

He is in many ways a horrendous man, but one who also has this side that is genuinely progressive and public spirited and has a genuine kind of altruism to it. And you mentioned Suetonius, the great Roman biographer, but Lyndon Johnson is the subject of what people are always saying is the greatest modern political biography. Yeah. And I have to say I've never read it because it's about 4,000 pages long, isn't it? Yeah. And he's only got up to about kind of 1932 or something. No, I think Johnson has become, I can't actually remember where he's got to, has he maybe become vice president? Robert Caro's enormous, enormous cycle of Johnson biographies, which I have

read I have to say, although they're both hypnotic at times, but there are moments when you're so hypnotized you're slightly falling asleep because the minutiae are so involved. But he gives a brilliant sense of the kind of sweep of Johnson's career and of these twin forces that are driving him on. On the one hand, the desire to do good, on the other, the kind of monstrousness, the obsessive, the lust for power and for control. He was a congressman in Texas. He got into the Senate in 1948 through unashamed, flagrant fraud.

He's a dirty guy, Johnson. But once he was in the Senate after 1948, he became majority leader. So he leads the Democrats. And as you said, he's not just a fixer. He is the most brilliant political manager in American history. He does something called the Johnson treatment. I can't really see you enjoying this, Tom. Johnson is a huge man and he would loom over you and he would talk to you and at you.

If necessary for hours, his hands would be all over you. People would often say what Ben Bradley, who edited the Washington Post, said it was as if a St. Bernard had licked your face for an hour and had poured you all over. So he'd be trying to say, I don't know, don't do an episode on Chatham High Street or something like that. Exactly, he would. And he would know he would have intelligence. He would know your weaknesses. He would know your strengths. His hands would literally be on you the whole time. And he would be saying, Tom, I know you want this. I know you this. You've got your Bulgarian personal trainer. Yeah. I know what's going on with you and your family. And he'd be stuffing money in your pockets.

And then also, mightn't he suggest that we go to the urinal together and he would then urinate in an intimidating manner? Is that true? It's absolutely true. So this is another side to Johnson, which listeners may find entertaining. He's very scatological. So there's a very famous conversation that you can hear. He taped his conversations in the White House. Oh, like Nixon again.

You can hear it online. He rings a clothing company to order some trousers. This is 1964 and he's president. And there's a huge sort of rant he goes on about the crotch of the trousers. And he's very, very explicit about his equipment and where he wants it to hang, to hang around his body. And this is typical of Johnson. He will have meetings on the toilet. He will call aides, often Ivy League educated, sort of self-consciously sophisticated kind of Kennedy aides who are still in the White House, Johnson will say, come in please to talk to me.

And he will literally be sitting on the toilet. So like Cato receiving ambassadors from Egypt. Exactly, exactly. And they will find it degrading, humiliating, but he's the president and there's nothing they can do about it. He's literally the big swinging dick. Well, he will urinate in the washbasin in front of his secretaries. He will wave his, what the tabloids in Britain would once have called his manhood around. His Johnson. His Johnson in front of people. He cheats on his wife, Lady Bird. He gropes

women in front of her. He has this line, which I have to say is quite a good line. I've had more women by accident than Kennedy had on purpose. So Dominic, can I just ask you something? Yeah. Because I'm sure it will thrill you as a world expert on this topic. World experts, wow. To know that I have read a book. That's exciting.

In preparation for this. That's exciting, but also terrifying. Yeah. Exactly. So I'm now armed with little scraps of knowledge with which I can impress and infuriate you. Yes. So this is by a guy called Luke A. Nickter, who's from his photograph. He has the look of a man who would enjoy wearing a bow tie. And

it's called The Year That Broke Politics. It's all about 1968. And he quotes Billy Graham, the evangelical Christian leader, who's apparently a big friend of Johnson. And he says about Johnson at LBJ and Lady Bird, I seriously doubt if any couple could love each other more than these two. Is that accurate or is Billy Graham just, I mean, is he, is he mad? I don't think Billy Graham is mad. I think Billy Graham has been very kind. Right. I think Lady Bird is devoted to Johnson and he in a peculiar way is to her. They're very loyal to each other in one sense, but Johnson is a, Johnson is one of, what's the people say in America? He's a dog.

He's a dog that you can't keep on the porch. I think is the expression. Okay. Yeah. So Billy Graham's not entirely right there. Right. Johnson is a man of towering ego. I mean, we should do this, Tom, now that we are successful or reasonably successful podcasters.

He has his initials, LBJ, on his belt buckle, on his shorts, on his cufflinks. When you go to the LBJ ranch in Texas, LBJ is stamped on everything. It's even stamped on the ashtrays, like as if there's a danger that he'll forget his own name. He's very overbearing. He's very domineering. And of course, what this is driven by is this thirst, this almost demented obsession with getting attention and affection.

He's always sort of saying to his intimates, everybody's against me. Everybody despises me. And I quote, everybody is trying to cut me down. Everybody is trying to cut me down. Everybody is trying to destroy me. Can I ask, is this a residue of his experience as Kennedy's vice president? Because notoriously, who is it says that being vice president isn't worth a bucket of warm spit or something to that effect? Yeah, everybody. Everybody says that.

Yes. So it's a kind of institutionalized process of humiliation. Yes. I think there's a degree of truth in that. So I think he had been very much at the bottom of the table in the Kennedy White House. And as we'll discuss when we do our episode about Robert Kennedy in a couple of episodes time, the feud between Robert Kennedy and Johnson was partly predicated on the fact that Johnson felt despised. Because there's a very

class element there. Because the Kennedys are all prep schools and holidays in Europe and stuff. Exactly. They don't have their initials stamped on their ashtrays. And they regard Johnson frankly, I think as common as what we call common, as vulgar, as coarse, as boorish. Certainly Robert Kennedy does. Now after John F. Kennedy is shot, it is very clear to Johnson that a lot of the Kennedy people despise him. They think he's a usurper. He shouldn't be there. One of his sort of friends in the media, Guy William White, a columnist, wrote in 1966, President Johnson has had to bear a frightful burden in the unremitting hostility of the Kennedy cult.

And it's common attitude that the man in the White House is not simply a constitutional successor but a crude usurper. But there isn't at this point the rumours that he might be behind the Kennedy assassination. It's not that experience yet. No, no, no. That's the 70s kind of development. But I think for a lot of the Kennedy lawyers, it feels like it's poured salt in the wounds that this guy from Texas, who they regard as sort of slightly monstrous, has inherited

their hero's mantle. And the person who really feels this is Robert Kennedy, who'd been attorney general to his brother, who feels that he has inherited his brother's flame, as it were, and who is this great sentimental hero of the Kennedy loyalists. Now Johnson despises Robert Kennedy. He always calls him that boy and he keeps a file on him because he fears that one day Robert Kennedy will stab him in the back. Again, it's very Roman actually.

Yeah, it is. Yeah. However, at first it doesn't seem like that's at all plausible because LBJ wins a tremendous victory in 1964, in the 1964 election, which is just a year after JFK was shot. Johnson won the highest ever share of the vote in an American presidential election. He beat Barry Goldwater 61% to 39%. Although tellingly he lost the five states of the deep south and that is an omen of things to come that we'll be picking up on later in this series.

Because LBJ has inherited Kennedy's commitment to civil rights. He's inherited it, but he also deepens it. So whether Kennedy could have got that civil rights legislation through his dubious. Johnson because of his contacts, because of the Johnson treatment, because of all his unparalleled networking skills, he is able to push through two civil rights acts and a voting rights act. He pushes through what he calls the great society, which is a huge program of new spending on health and education, programs like Medicare and Medicaid that a lot of our American listeners, well, all of our American listeners will be

familiar with and what he calls a war on poverty. So spending billions of dollars, largely through economic growth, but also through widening deficits in an unprecedented program of what we, I guess, would call in Europe, social democratic kind of legislation to improve the lives of some of the poorest people in America. So this is why historians often say Johnson is a tragic figure, because they look at this, a lot of historians who tend to be kind of left of center liberal, they say, oh, this is brilliant, can't get enough of this. Love it. And yet by about 1967, so as we approach 1968, there was a sense that

things have started to go wrong. And there are two obvious things. I mean, these are the two things that are mentioned by that Sunday Times piece that you read out at the beginning. Number one is massive urban unrest. So riots in the inner cities, effectively. So that started in Watts. And are these race-based riots?

Well, yeah, they are largely riots by African Americans and they are often inspired by police brutality, by resentment of the authorities. There's a sort of sense that the civil rights movement and the campaign has moved northwards. Become a bit more militant, Black Panthers. Yeah, it's becoming more militant, but that's not really why these riots are breaking out. The riots are breaking out because there's growing tension over housing, over jobs, and over mistreatment, but over racism in the Northern cities or the cities of the West Coast.

But in universities, it's the summer of love, isn't it? Well, not quite a summer of love, actually. It's more a summer of protest. So the summer of love in 1967 is obviously in the sort of parks of San Francisco, but on campuses, as we will see, it's not so much peace and love. It's increasingly embittered, impassioned anti-war demonstrations. But we'll get onto that. Just on the riots, they cook off in Watson, Los Angeles in 1964. Then there's a long hot summer in 1966 and then a longer, hotter summer in 1967.

Most famously the riots in Newark and Detroit. And these are not like, you know, when we have riots in Britain. These are riots in which dozens of people, scores of people are being shot dead. Thousands of people are being shot dead. Thousands of people are injured, looting, burning. Some cities are literally burning for days. And if you Google them and look at the images or look at the footage, these are apocalyptic scenes of kind of burning streets, national guardsmen standing there with rifles with them gas masks on.

You know, it looks like something from the sort of the end of the world. It's in the famous photo of LBJ in a helicopter going over a riot scene. And it looks like Vietnam. Yeah, exactly. There's a sense that a sort of low level civil war has exploded in the heart of America's inner cities. Certainly that's the inflated rhetoric that people use at the time. So that provokes a backlash against the administration.

There's a sense that people think, gosh, we're sick of these big social programs, we're sick of being improved. Enough of all this talk about poverty. Actually, we want the government to sort all this out, focus on crime. So in the 1966 midterm elections, the Republicans had done really well. These are the midterm elections in which Ronald Reagan becomes governor of California on a law and order clamped down on the unrest, clamped down on the disorder ticket. So Reagan is suddenly a name to conjure with in the late sixties. But the even bigger issue is Vietnam. So here, Johnson had inherited this commitment from Kennedy and then had massively deepened it. So is it like the civil rights movement that he believes in it or is he just doing it because

he feels, well, you can't turn around at all, tanker? No, I think he does believe in it. And indeed there's a great historiographical debate between historians, which we can't really get into now because we don't have time, about whether Johnson is personally to blame for getting into the war, whether actually he didn't need to do it and he chose to do it because he wants to prove himself, because he genuinely believes in it, because he believes in the Cold War, all of this kind of stuff.

I mean, whether or not they could have been averted is a subject for another time. But what we can say is that by 1965, he thinks he's got a blank check from Congress. He's sent the Marines ashore at Da Nang, which is the first commitment of kind of ground troops in Vietnam. From that point onwards, for the next three years, he and his commanders are constantly saying, there's light at the end of the tunnel. We will soon see off the insurgency in South Vietnam and we'll defeat the communists in North Vietnam. One last push. Exactly. But that light never comes. And so month after month, they're pouring in more

and more troops. So by the beginning of 1968, there are more than half a million American troops in South Vietnam, an extraordinarily high number. Now of those, about 20,000 Americans have been killed by this point. And the most of the deaths have come quite recently. And indeed in 1968, another 17,000 will be killed. And of course, this doesn't count all those who have been badly injured, who've got massive PTSD, all of these kinds of things. And has the draft been introduced by this point? Yes. So the draft has been introduced.

So that's an additional cause of... Yeah. Effective conscription causing great unhappiness among younger people and especially on college campuses. Although you do get to rush through fields to the soundtrack of The Doors. So there is that. Yeah. If you enjoy that kind of thing. I think you just have to imagine the soundtrack though, Tom.

I don't think the soundtrack is laid on for you. Oh, okay. So the question is why doesn't Johnson just withdraw? And actually what's happened is that by the end of 1967, he and his aides have developed a kind of bit of a bunker mentality. They're sick of being criticized. So people who dissent within the administration are frightened of speaking up. And Johnson is a very, very proud and prickly man. So one of his closest aides, George Reedy, said of Johnson,

he had never in his entire life learned to confess error. And this quality, merely amusing or exasperating in a private person, obviously neither of us are like that, Tom, resulted in the case of Johnson in cosmic tragedy. Johnson believes his prestige, he's made this decision to get involved in Vietnam and he believes his prestige indeed, I mean literally his manhood, are bound up with it because there's a very famous incident when he's being interrogated by reporters, why are you in Vietnam? Why does America not get out? And he is supposed to have unzipped

his trousers, exposed himself and said, this is why. Is that true? I mean, that sounds very seetoneous. It's the kind of story that you suspect is not true. So it's told by his ambassador to the UN, a guy called Arthur Goldberg. I mean, did he make it up? The trouble is there are so many such stories about OBJ. Why would this one... But imagine Trump. Imagine Trump is holding a press conference and he does that. I mean... Yeah, but this isn't live on... I mean, it's not like it's on TV or something. Yeah, but you're doing it to journalists. But Johnson did do this. He did expose himself a lot to people. Unbelievable. And he thought there was nothing wrong with it. So anyway,

they have been feeding more troops into this meat grinder. And you asked about the draft, Tom. The anti-war movement has been growing really since 1965. It began, I would say, originally with very small kind of pacifist groups, and particularly, you'll be pleased to hear, with religious groups, Christian groups, Quakers and so on. So it's the Quakers. But then it grew and grew, and obviously the existence of the draft, the draft conscripts in total about two million people over the lifetime of the war to serve in Vietnam. Now, basically, as a rule, the richer and better educated you are, the more chance you have of escaping.

You get a spur in your foot. Donald Trump did not go to Vietnam. Bill Clinton got in terrible controversy about in the 1990s about what, how he had supposedly dodged the draft. If you're a poor student or indeed not a student student or if you are black, you've got a much higher chance of going. So even though students have a better chance of not going, they are horrified by the existence of the draft. So by 1967, you have huge protests on college campuses, most famous protest of all, the march on the Pentagon in 1967, more than a hundred thousand people

in Washington DC. And they very famously try to exorcise the Pentagon and then to levitate it. So groovy. So these are the yippies. It will come as a great disappointment to you, Tom, to hear that they did not succeed in levitating it. Well, that's the man. Yes. So most ordinary Americans, what do they think? I know what you're going to say here. But it's true. I mean, what I'm going to say is just factually correct. This is Peek's Ambroke.

I mean, the thing is actually, Tom, don't forget, I did this for my PhD at the beginning of my historical career. So it's actually doing this that formed my worldview. Yeah, I know. This is, this is why it's so fascinating. The reality is that most ordinary Americans pretty much supported the war, always supported the war. The one thing they hated more than the war actually was hippies. Was hippies.

Correct. It was the anti-war movement. And there's a large proportion of them always that thought we should actually fight the war harder. We should go into North Vietnam if necessary. We should send troops into North Vietnam, fight our way to Hanoi and win the war that way. But I think it is fair to say there is a general sense of weariness among the public at large. Even if you support the war, you're sick of it by 1968. And there's a definite sense that progressive metropolitan opinion, and especially the college educated young, have turned against Johnson by the beginning of 68. So all through

this year, and indeed all through this series that we're going to be doing, I think you have to imagine at the whole time, the campuses are in revolt. That at Columbia, in New York, and Berkeley, and California, there are massive crowds of people with huge hair, shouting and waving placards and fighting the authorities and all of it. Because there are. And there's the, hey, hey, LBJ, how many kids did you kill today? That's the famous slogan, isn't it? Exactly. And can I just ask, so LBJ is a massive progressive. I mean, he's introduced all this very progressive liberal legislation. And presumably he thinks that these kind of hippies and progressives should be on his

side. I mean, does he feel upset that they're not? Of course he does. He feels a massive sense of betrayal. He does. You don't understand how Johnson behaves if you don't get how much he feels embattled, betrayed, stabbed in the back, all of these kinds of things, because he thinks these people should be...

His people. His people and they should be grateful. I mean, he will say in the White House, these kids, these snobbish kids, they should be grateful to me for all I've done for them. So he interprets it as they are the elite. Definitely. I mean, this is the progressive elites. Definitely.

Who don't understand. I mean, of course, Nixon thinks this even more strongly in their following administration, and we will get on to Nixon towards the end of this series. So Johnson is sitting there in the White House. It's a bit of a bunker mentality, terrible news from the cities, terrible news from Vietnam. His popularity is in free fall. It's kind of falling all the time. Wherever he goes by the end of 1967, there are massive protests. He cannot visit a college campus without there being a huge crowd of people who will chant at him exactly what you said. Hey, hey, LBJ, how many kids did you kill today? They really are saying that all the time.

That's- Oh, they totally are. Yeah. Right. Shouting murderer, shouting Seekhile, all of this. Putting flowers in rifle butts. They are doing. They did that at the march of the Pentagon. So that's where the famous photos come from. That there are soldiers drawn up the march of the Pentagon. So that's where the famous photos come from. That there are soldiers drawn up in front of the Pentagon to defend it from the people who want to levitate it.

And you know, these kind of well-meaning students are sort of giving them flowers and stuff. This is very, very late sixties. I mean, my heart doesn't bleed for Johnson particularly because I don't think he's a terribly attractive character, but there is no doubt that he feels a crushing sense of political pressure. He says to people, he feels like he's living in a continuous nightmare. I feel like a hitchhiker on a Texas highway in the middle of a hailstorm. I can't run, I can't hide, I can't make it go away. He can't sleep. He's got these huge mood swings. He's very depressed. At the end of 1967, one of his critics in the Democratic Party, a guy called George McGovern, came to dinner at the White House to one of the White House kind of banquets.

And he was shocked by Johnson at this. And this is somebody who doesn't agree with him. He said, he seems a tortured and confused man, literally tortured by the mess he's gotten into in Vietnam. He is restless, almost like a caged animal. And what is also on Johnson's mind, I think, at the beginning of 68 is he's not a wellman. Johnson had been a massive drinker and a massive smoker. And in 1955, when he was 46 years old, he had had a heart attack and he is terrified

he's going to have another heart attack or stroke. He always said that he used to look at the picture of Woodrow Wilson in the red room, Wilson who had had a stroke at the end of the first world war and been incapacitated for his kind of last period in the White House. And Johnson says, I worry that that will be me, that I under all this pressure, I'm going to have a heart attack and that will be the end of me. Dominic, would it thrill you if I read a line from this book I've read? I would, do you know what?

I can't think of anything at this point that I would enjoy more. I genuinely would love it. Throughout his presidency, he was in almost daily pain from angina and popped nitroglycerin tablets like jelly beans. Oh, well, there you go. I'm just adding a bit of extra texture. That's lovely texture. I think everybody enjoyed that. I know you'd be thrilled by that. So he has been for months saying to his wife, Lady Bird, oh, I think I might throw in the towel. But Johnson always

says things like that because of his self-pitying kind of affection craving personality. He's always sort of threatening to leave in order to make people say, no, no, no, please don't. Please stay. Yeah. So no one takes it seriously. Meanwhile, from the end of the summer of 1967, some student activists and liberal activists who are almost sort of professional do-gooders, I guess, they're the kind of link people between

student groups and anti-war groups and all of this kind of thing. In the Democratic Party, they have been saying we should put up a candidate against Johnson in the Democratic primaries, a dump Johnson candidate. Now this has only really happened once before in 1952 that somebody has challenged the sitting president. So this was when a guy called Estes Kefauver, who you may remember from our JFK series, beating JFK to the vice presidential nomination in 1956, Estes Kefauver had beaten Truman. That wasn't a massive story. I mean, it was a bit of a story, but it's not a massive story.

So people don't really think about that as a precedent, but they are thinking we can fly the flag, we can fly the peace flag against Johnson, the democratic primaries humiliate him and maybe he will change course. Someone needs to stand up and say something. So the aim isn't actually to defeat him, just to make a statement. I'm not convinced that they think Johnson can be beaten. I think they've regarded as important to make a moral stand. The one person, of course, who could beat him, who at least has the national celebrity to beat him, is Robert F. Kennedy. And these activists go to Kennedy in Washington and they say, would you consider

doing it? Kennedy, as we will discuss when we come to his episode, he doesn't really want to do it because he thinks it's very risky. You know, divide the party. Plus, Johnson will only do one more term and then it's my go in 1972. So he says, you know, guys, I'd like to, I completely support your cause, but I don't want to do it. So now they're looking for a stalking horse, you know, not a big name. And Dominic, do they find one? And if so, who is it? Well, they go around the halls of Congress. They ask a series of people who they know are against the war.

So George McGovern, Frank Church, all these kinds of senators. And they're basically all these people say no. And then eventually they go all the way down the list and they find this kind of name towards the end of the list. This guy from Minnesota called Eugene McCarthy, they go in to see him and he listens to them and then he says, okay, I'll do it. And he, Tom, is going to change the course of American history. Brilliant. Okay, well, let's take a break there. And when we come back, we will hear

about Eugene McCarthy from Dominic, the man who more than anyone else in the world is qualified to tell us all about him. I'm Marina Hyde. And I'm Richard Osman. And together we host The Rest Is Entertainment. It's your weekly fix of entertainment news, reviews, splash of showbiz gossip. And on our Q&A, we pull back the curtain on entertainment and we tell you how it all works. Hello, welcome back to The Rest Is History. We're looking at the fall of LBJ and Dominic, a stalking horse has been found in the form of Eugene McCarthy. Who is Eugene McCarthy and has an eminent presenter on this show perhaps done a doctorate on him? So yeah, Tom, I don't know how to say this to the listeners other than to say I did do my PhD on him.

I am literally the expert. That's the one thing I can claim to be an expert on. I think as I've said to you, Tom, nobody in the history of the human race will ever know more about Eugene McCarthy than I did at least. I've probably forgotten a lot. And Eugene McCarthy himself is dead. So he's not a rival to you. No.

And in fact, he and I have unfortunately had a difference of opinion about him. So what did he say? Well I interviewed him for my, he was very generous. He was very hospitable. I mean, we went for lunch. We had very nice time. Met him in Washington and in Minnesota. That was all lovely. But then after my PhD was published, became a book and was published, he said, he told the press that I was, and I quote, I'm apologies to our listeners, he said I was a shit and that my PhD was so bad, it was almost libelous. Right.

Well, that's a commendation. All I can say is, you know, I'm obviously party pre, so people should make up their own minds after listening to the podcast and perhaps even if they can get down to the charity shop buying a copy of the book. Well, so what did he say about him? I mean, tell us about him. So he was born in 1916 in a place called Watkins, Minnesota, which I've been to, which is, I don't really recommend as a holiday destination. It's a sort of small Plains town, German Catholics largely who lived there. He's of German Catholic descent himself, despite the, I mean, the Irish name obviously, but it's the German influence I think is more important on him.

So he's out there in the middle of nowhere in Minnesota, no offence to people from Minnesota. He was educated by Benedictine monks. And then he actually became a Benedictine novice himself. I mean, very unusual. He's like Tony Abbott, the former Prime Minister of Australia. Yeah. So a very unusual sort of upbringing, I would say, for an American politician, a frontline American politician in the 1960s.

He was kicked out of the monastery basically after having a personality clash with the novice master. Because Eugene McCarthy was a very clever boy and was basically always showing off and laughing at everybody and saying he was much cleverer than they were. Sounds charming. And the novice master said this was very un-Christian behaviour. The sin of pride.

The sin of pride. So then he got married and he and his wife tried to set up a kind of Catholic rural commune. This is in the Great Depression. He's really into all this kind of sort of guild business and distributive justice and all these Catholic ideas. And that didn't really work out. He then went to St. Paul, the state capital of Minnesota and he became a sociology lecturer. And he got into politics. He was elected by the Democratic Farmer Labor Party, which is the name of the Democratic Party in Minnesota for St. Paul, sent to Congress. And then he worked his way up. He was very

good at politics. He was very bright. He's kind of handsome. He's articulate. He's a rising star. He's liberal, but he's not kind of too liberal. So he kind of gets on with the big party fix. People like LBJ, the party barons, and he is elected to the Senate from Minnesota in 1958. So he's on the liberal wing of the party, but he's still quite unusual because he's kind of, it's like a European Christian Democrats or something, but a very pious one. He's massively into Thomas Aquinas and Thomas Moore. He's quoting them in his speeches all the time.

People would go to his office in the Senate and they would say, everybody else has like the congressional record, books about American politics. He has very ostentatiously, they would say. He has all these books about sort of medieval theology and stuff. And people would always say about him, you know, he wears his learning and his cleverness extremely heavily. I remember this story, it's somewhat of the oral history interviews at the Kennedy Library, I think it's Ted Kennedy or somebody like that tells the story. They said they once got a plane with him to some speaking function in the middle of nowhere. And they all

got on the plane and they're reading like, yeah, the other senators are reading Ian Fleming, or they're reading the newspaper, or they're doing a bit of work and he kind of reaches into his bag and he took out this enormous Catholic missile and just sort of reading it in front of everybody in a very, very ostentatious way. So that's basically how he carries on. But he likes poetry as well, doesn't he? He also writes poetry. So he's really into his poetry and he's influenced by people like Yates and kind of modernist poets and he writes his own poetry. Again, Tom, I think I'm probably the only person would ever have on the podcast who's read every single one of Eugene McCarthy's poems. Are they good or derivative? I think you can be both good and derivative.

Like Oasis. Yes, like Oasis. He's the oasis. He's the Noel and Liam Gallagher of 1960s American politicians. Yeah, he has a very dry kind of style. I think they are very derivative, but I don't think, he's not talentless. Right, I mean, he's still, yeah, they're better poems than I could write. Let's put it that way. So he's a poetry writing Aquinas fan.

Yeah. He sounds very like he's going to do well in the 60s. The other thing that he has, now this is, I think, what he objected to in my description of his career. He has what I think we could safely describe as a very distinctive personality. And Tom, it worries me that you will find this disturbingly familiar, because when I

did all these interviews and I went and did, went through the archives, the same comments kept coming up again and again. So right from when he was at school, his English teacher said, and I quote, he enjoyed it when someone made a fool of himself in class. One of the monks at the monastery, he had little regard for people not as talented or as sophisticated. So what was it drew you to write about Senator, you don't want to know? Yeah, it was the commonality of temperament. So in that book you quoted an American melodrama. There's a wonderful description by these British reporters.

His fellow politicians regarded him as aloof, indolent, arrogant and annoying. They didn't like the way he spent so much of his time telling wicked little stories about his colleagues to reporters. And the fact that the stories were always pointed enough to draw blood made it all the worse. They thought him quote, a truly deeply cynical man, a scoffer, as one puts it. Now it's important to say Tom, that we don't approve of such behaviour at all. And we would, the thought of us, for example, telling wicked stories about our podcasting colleagues is unthinkable. So it's no wonder that you wrote this book in a tone of deep moral disapproval. No, I didn't disapprove. You see, this is the thing. I put all this in the book and

I thought this was brilliant. You thought you're paying him a compliment. I thought I was. Yeah. I think this is maybe the difference in the British and American sensibility that I actually genuinely thought this is absolutely brilliant behavior. This is exactly how I behave. But he and some of the American reviewers said, oh, this is very harsh. This is very unfair. Of course he wasn't like this at all. Well anyway, now he in the 1960s has already flirted with presidential politics. In 1960, he had basically he'd backed his Minnesota stablemate, a guy called Hubert Humphrey for the presidency, rather than Jack Kennedy. So Hubert Humphrey will be a big player in the story as well.

Very big player. Yeah. Can I a kind of... Can I just say I'll be honest, I would never have heard of either of them if I hadn't heard them through you. Yeah. And the fact they're called Eugene and Hubert, I imagined them both as kind of slightly geeky, bowties, round glasses, kind of weedy. No. But no, I mean, they're massive great lads, aren't they? Yeah, I would say they're great lads. If you like talking about Thomas Aquinas or being kind, which are their respective traits, then I guess, yeah, you'd get on well with them. They'd be good on the podcast. I mean, Hubert Humphrey is a great talker. So he'd, yeah, you'd get on well with him.

Well, it just goes to, you shouldn't judge on a name, you know, leap to leap your expectations from names. So anyway, Eugene is backing his Minnesota friend, Hubert Humphrey. The person he despises is Kennedy. He goes around saying to everybody that the Kennedys are total lightweights and playboys, and he's very, very offended that they're Catholics. He says they're terrible Catholics and I'm a brilliant Catholic. He actually said famously to a guy called Tip O'Neill, he said, I'm the

one who should be nominated. Any way you measure it, I'm a better man than John Kennedy. I'm smarter. I'm a better speaker. And if they're looking for a Catholic, I'm a better Catholic. Of course, I don't have a rich father. Dominic, do you know what that reminds me of? And this will mean nothing to you, but it may mean something to quite a lot of our listeners.

It's Gretchen in Mean Girls when she's having her rant about Regina George, who's the queen bee in the film. And she compares herself to Brutus and says that Brutus is just as good as Caesar in very similar terms. So I wonder if Tina Fey was informed by that. I don't know. It seems implausible. Well, you never know. You do never know. So Kennedy is then shot, of course. McCarthy thinks, well, brilliant, I could be Lyndon Johnson's vice president. He needs somebody to balance the ticket. And everybody knows he's going to choose one of these two guys from Minnesota, Eugene McCarthy or Hubert Humphrey. And Johnson keeps saying to McCarthy, it's going to be you, it's going to be you,

bring your family to Atlantic city, to the convention, all of this kind of thing. And then right at the end, he chooses Huber Humphrey. And McCarthy is absolutely gutted. He is so gutted in fact, that after this, he basically goes into this massive strop. Yeah, a bit of a, I was going to say sulk. He basically just hangs around in the Senate for years. He's bored, He's incredibly bitter. He's contemptuous about all the other senators who he says are thick and not

as good as him and so he makes himself quite a sort of unpopular figure, but he also turns against the administration over the Vietnam war. So he's genuinely horrified as some senators are by the bombing. His kids are against the war and they influence him. By about 1966 or so, 1967, he and about a dozen other Democrats have turned against the war and they say, look, we should do a couple of things. Number one, and these things will come up again and again in this series. Number one, stop the bombing of North Vietnam. We are dropping so much ordinance on them. It is brutal. It's killing thousands of civilians.

It is indefensible. And number two, we should have a negotiated settlement. And that means basically everyone gets around the table and this may mean a coalition government in South Vietnam that includes the Viet Cong. Now Johnson and the White House say, this is bonkers, the Viet Cong. You can and the White House say this is bonkers, the Viet Cong, you can't have them in a coalition government, they would kill everybody and seize power. But the doves say no, no, no, this is the only solution. So there's this sort of ideological breach. But when these guys come to find their stalking horse candidates,

McCarthy, it seems in a way unlikely that McCarthy will actually do anything about it because he's made it very clear to a lot of his intimates, and this is something that I kind of found out a lot about when I was doing my PhD, that he wants to lead politics. He actually wants to be like the head of a university or something, a kind of college president. But then these guys come to see him, these activists, and he's sitting there in late 1967 and he thinks, well, why not? Why not have a presidential campaign? It wouldn't be the worst thing in the world, right?

First of all, my kids would like it, campaigning against the war. And I genuinely, he genuinely is opposed to the bombing of North Vietnam and the waging of the war. And he genuinely wants it to end. It's not like I'm underplaying that side of him. And I think that's very important. But also I think he thinks it'd be a laugh, you know, it'd be a lark. He says to people, he says to the guy who becomes his campaign manager who told me this story, he said McCarthy said, it'll just be you and me touring these

campuses. Everybody will love us. We'll just be able to sit up at night with the students drinking whiskey and talking about poetry and it'll be great fun and he also thinks it'll make his name. He be able to charge more for i mean genuinely somebody said he told them it will increase my speaker fees. And he's been told there are a load of kind of progressive financiers and things in new york city have promised that they will be loads of money, that they will fund it properly. You know, he'll be traveling business class flights, nice rooms in hotels, you know, it'll all be properly organized. And there's another dimension.

He said to a liberal activist in Massachusetts, I've seen the interview, he said, I had every right to think that Johnson would pick me as his vice president. I invited my family to come down from Minnesota to Atlantic city. But then of course he didn't pick him. So McCarthy said, I vowed I would get that son of a bitch and I did. So this is what happens. He enters the race on the 30th of November and it's a very, very sort of funereal scene almost. He announces he's opposing Johnson. He says it's all going to be a referendum on Vietnam. The press are

astounded. They don't really take it seriously. There's a sort of one of them, Newsweek, he was all grey like a kind of essence, they said about McCarthy because he's got this sort of style which is very unflashy, very unexciting. He wants to talk about Catholic philosophy and poetry with you. And the Punic Wars, I gather. Yeah. So when he starts campaigning, right, this is the amazing thing. I love this stuff.

When he starts campaigning, a couple of days after this announcement, he has this big address to a conference of concerned Democrats in Chicago. And they were absolutely pumped up. They're looking forward to this furious denunciation. USA! No, they're not shouting USA. They're shouting, hey, hey, hell be jade. Okay. Yes, of course.

That's their thing. Yeah. But they're still whooping and chanting. Well, I think they're whooping. They're kind of earnest people, Tom. Okay. They are. They're very...

Oh, well, if they're earnest, then they'll love what he serves up. Well, they're high minded and they want to hear a blistering denunciation of the war. McCarthy gets up and he goes up to the thing and he's basically says, I thought I'd give you a bit of a lecture about the lessons of the Punic war. I mean, he's my man. I'm all over it. And they are, they can't believe it. I mean, they're going mad. They hit the activists are so gutted that he's behaving like this. They would say to him like, we've organized a visit for at a factory gate. You're going to go and shake all these hands. And he literally said, quote, I'm not really a morning person.

Right. It's like me organizing trips to Chatham high street or on ferries. And you say, no, I'm not going to. He will have a text. He will be given a text of like a denunciation of the war and he'll go up and he'll still read a bit of it and then he'll get bored and he'll say, I'm going to read you some of my poems actually. And it is as though he is, and this is exactly what I think he's doing by the way, I think

he's mocking the conventions of presidential politics because basically he thinks he's too good for it. So LBJ must hate that. Yeah. Well, I think LBJ just thinks it's comical. He doesn't take it seriously at all, because within weeks, McCarthy's poll rating tanks. So by the end of January 1968, he's behind LBJ by 71 to 18%. And one of the previously vaguely supportive columnists, so in the sort of village voice,

kind of began as a kind of alternative newspaper in New York, Jack Newfield, and he wrote at the time, McCarthy's campaign is a disaster. It's so inept that it seems that only a paranoid view of his intentions can explain its failure. Oh, yeah. It's a parody. It's a parody. Or indeed that he's been put up to this by Johnson. Right. Yeah.

Like one of those people that runs against Vladimir Putin. Yeah. You know, he's an approved person to siphon off discontent and to be useless so Johnson can cruise to victory. And then there is a stunning twist. We do like a kind of bombshell on the rest is history. And this is a real bombshell. Clouds of war are gathering, right? So it's the afternoon of the 30th of January and Johnson's in the White House when his national security advisor, Walt Whitman Rostow comes in and says to him, we've had reports from Saigon, there is gunfire near the presidential palace

and there is gunfire in the grounds of the U S embassy. That's not good. And LBJ says, oh, this sounds very bad. And he is right. Cause this is the beginning of the Tet Offensive, which is the beginning. It's the new year in Vietnam. It is a sort of stunning surprise attack timed for the holiday by the Viet Cong and North Vietnamese soldiers in a hundred different towns and cities across South

Vietnam. It's the biggest military operation of the war so far. It completely takes the Americans by surprise. The most famous images of it, so there's one moment, which is the Viet Cong fight their way into the compound of the US embassy. I mean, that is a stunning symbolic blow to American pride. But it is only symbolic, isn't it? Because the Tet Offensive actually gets defeated.

Yeah, and they lose tens of thousands of men, the Viet Cong. However, it's the fact that the US didn't see it coming. It's the fact that the fighting has taken place in the citadels of South Vietnamese and American military power in the capital city is just staggering to American audiences at home. There is a sense that middle America realizes for the first time the generals have been lying to us. There is no light at the end of the tunnel. Yeah, the US embassy is not safe. There's a very famous photo which lots of people will have seen,

which becomes the emblematic picture. It's on the 1st of February, so a couple of days later, and it's by a guy called Eddie Adams, and it shows the Saigon chief of police just almost casually shooting this bloke in the head in the middle of the street, a captured Viet Cong prisoner. And as LBJ's aide said at the time, the photo was in every newspaper and it seemed to capture this sense that America had blundered into a horrendous conflict. I quote, we were sunk in a war between alien peoples with whom we shared few human values. Of course, that's very loaded comment.

That's from LBJ's aide Harry McPherson. But that I think expresses how a lot of Americans felt. Their troop losses mount in the following weeks. They're using more men proportionately than the South Vietnamese Army. Even LBJ's own advisors are beginning to crack at this point. So the Secretary of Defense, Robert McNamara, who had been Kennedy's Secretary of Defense before, he had been seen as the sort of the absolute early sixties, mad men style, master of the universe, number cruncher. He'd been a car company executive. He never showed a

flicker of emotion. He's kind of Dr. Strange Love isn't he? Yeah well he's the master of all the figures and the stats and he's the ultimate kind of corporation man I guess, McNamara. And at one of these meetings at the end of February he literally breaks down in tears. The other LBJ aides are so embarrassed. He says to them between kind of sobs, our goddamn air force is dropping more on North Vietnam than we dropped on Germany in World War II and it is not doing anything. Then he turns to a guy sitting along the table from him called Clark Clifford who's going to succeed him as Secretary of Defense. McNamara says to Clifford, we just have to end this thing.

I just hope you can get hold of it because it has got completely out of control. And everybody is kind of, oh my God, the generals are asking for more troops. Our guys in Washington are just crying and they've, they've lost control of it. And he'll go on to make a film, won't he? Famous film. Fog of War. Fog of War. Yeah.

I've, I've met Robert McNamara. I've interviewed him. He cried in front of me. Did he? But I mean, that was his party piece. It's like the French Revolution. He cried in front of me. Did he? But I mean, that was his party piece. It's like the French Revolution. He cried in front of everybody.

Everyone crying. Yeah. He came to Cambridge when we were doing our PhDs. Everybody who was doing sort of work on this period had to present their work to him. And that was a weird thing, right? He's sitting there kind of at the end of this room and you had to say, well, I think you thought this and, and he was actually charming. I remember him coming for lunch, sitting there in his anorak, eating these terrible sandwiches provided by university

catering, a bit of a come down, I have to say. And talking to him about the war and he just, and somebody had said to us before, and he'll almost certainly start crying. That's what he always does. And he did. And, you know, it was kind of the, well, everyone wants to see anyway. So there's been, I think a definite shift against the war at this point. It's symbolized by the most famous newscaster of the day, Walter Cronkite. He goes to Vietnam, he comes back and he says on television, it's clear to me now we've totally lost control of this thing. He says, I think we're not going to win.

We should negotiate not as victors, but as honorable people who lived up to their pledge to defend democracy and did the best they could. And that night LBJ says to his aides, well, if I've lost Walter Cronkite, I've lost the country. So this is the context in which people are going to go to the polls in the first primary contest. So McCarthy and Johnson. Was that any influence on the timing of the offensive?

No. The Viet Cong kind of thinking about this. They're not interested in that. There's no doubt that Hanoi, the North Vietnamese, do follow American politics. They're very conscious of it. And we'll come to this when we come to Nixon and Nixon's election. But at this point, the whole McCarthy thing is such a sideshow. I mean, most people just think it's absolutely going to go nowhere at all.

The first primary is going to be in New Hampshire on the 12th of March. And in the grand scheme of things, it doesn't really matter. Have you ever been to New Hampshire, Tom? No. It's kind of New England, but it's quite gritty New England. So a lot of industrial towns, Irish and French Canadian Catholic voters. There are some college towns, but by and large it's more hawkish than a lot of the New England states. So I think generally the sense was they probably will, LBJ will be fine here. This isn't really massively, you know, it's not as studenty as some places.

But the thing is, because McCarthy is actually, his style is quite conservative, because he's talking about Hannibal and, you know, St. Augustine and stuff. He doesn't scare people. People think he's like a kind of sober, restrained university professor. Norman Mailer, who wrote loads about the 68 campaigns, wrote everything in McCarthy's manner. His quiet voice, his offhand delivery, his resolute refusal to etch his wit with any hint of emphasis gave a hint of his profound conservatism. And I think there's a lot of truth in that. And he's quite ambiguous. So he goes around

saying to everybody, God, the Tet Offensive, what a shambles that was. That shows we're doing really badly in the war, doesn't it? Will you lend me your vote? He doesn't really spell out in very clear terms, whether he's for the war or against the war. So a lot of people actually, I think, voted for him thinking he would prosecute the war more aggressively than Johnson. And is that a deliberate strategy or just that his pitch is muddled? I think there's a degree of deliberate strategy about it. Actually, I don't think it's completely cynical, but I do think there's a sense in which, and

a bit of studied ambiguity when you're running in a presidential campaign, as we will see with Nixon, is no bad thing. Um, what he's basically doing, I think, is he is saying, if you don't like LBJ for whatever reason, vote for me, what's the worst that could happen? And of course there are lots of people on different sides of the spectrum who don't like LBJ who think, why not a protest vote? It's a bit like voting for the Lib Dems in Britain. You know, it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter what they stand for.

I just want to express my dissatisfaction. He's the underdog. It's a romantic little campaign. Yeah, I'll vote for him. But he also has a secret weapon that nobody has ever really thought to deploy in American politics before. Students. People up to this point had thought having lots of students was

probably a bit of a bad thing. So Robert Kennedy had sent a message to McCarthy and had said, tell McCarthy, he's going to get loads of student volunteers because they're all very excited about the war. Tell him to be careful. He'll have more than he knows what to do with. Let him look out for that. And this is quite wrong. He gets about 10,000 students, I think. Their numbers are always inflated. So most of the books you read, let's talk of this huge army, 50,000 people or more. I don't think it was ever that many, but they're all from these kind of prestigious Northeastern universities, New England universities, Yale, Boston University, Dartmouth, Harvard. The great thing that everybody who knows about this story knows is that they went so-called

clean for Jean. Meaning they turned up with massive beards and big hair because they're kind of hippie-ish students. And actually they're then shaved off their beards to go canvassing. They made the supreme sacrifice for their country and their cause of peace. Hairies and freaks, that was the sort of claim. Actually, I don't think his students were hairies and freaks. That was the sort of claim. Actually, I don't think his students were hairies and freaks. They were square, earnest. Well, Al Gore is one of them, right? Al Gore would be the epitome. There were people who were really into politics, who like would give up their time to go knocking

on doors and handing out leaflets. Almost by definition, they're not people who are just smoking loads of dope and growing their beards. Anyway that's by the by. It's a very, very effective campaign because people in New Hampshire love the fact that all these kids are turning up. Sort of. It's like the Mormons, I guess. Yeah. Kind of crisp white shirts. May I have your vote, mom? All that. Yes. That's exactly what it is. Kind of pretty young women.

Yeah. Their best jeans or... Princesse. Yeah. They're nice dresses. They're coming up knocking on your door. Can I give you a leaflet? A guy called McCarthy. Oh yeah, I'll consider it. He's also got some celebs.

We love a celeb. He's got Robert Vaughan from The Man From Uncle. He's got Lauren Bacall and he's got Catwoman. Oh, brilliant. From Batman. From Batman. Oh, fantastic. And this was when Batman was good.

Exactly. No, it's the Adam West period. It's your favorite period of that one. Yeah. And is it true that people get him muddled with Senator Joe McCarthy, as in the McCarthy trials? Is that not true? I don't think it is true. Now, this is something obviously that I had to endure in my brief academic career. Because whenever I said I was doing my PhD on him, I had written my first book and then people said, what, Joe McCarthy? Red scares? Oh, brilliant. Love that. And I had to be like, no, it's the one that no one's ever heard of. But no, he told this story himself. He said he made a joke that people would vote for him because they thought he was Joe McCarthy. And since then it was always repeated. People

said, oh, everybody voted for him because they think. But I don't think they did. I've been, not that they were that stupid. It's good to know he made a joke. Oh yeah, he did make some. Between all the stuff about the Punic Wars and the poetry. Oh, he did make jokes. He would make these very kind of elliptical... The snide. Yes, I would say snide because I don't want him to be haunting me from beyond the grave.

I've already done enough damage. But I would say he would make, I think he would make sardonic jokes, Tom. Yeah, of course. I think that's what he would do. Now, the one thing everyone gets wrong is everybody says, I've seen it in all the new books about 1968 that have come out in recent years, a shoestring campaign, an underdog effort. Absolutely not true. His campaign was one of the best finance campaigns to that point in American history because he had all this money from Wall Street. So he spent, I think in total, $11 million, the most expensive democratic primary

campaign that had ever been waged. He outspent Johnson in New Hampshire by three to one. So he's throwing a lot of money at it. There's a lot of leaflets, there's a lot of posters and well, I was about to say it works, but actually the one thing that everybody really gets wrong is he still loses. So it's always treated as a victory, right? So on the 12th of March, 1968, New Hampshire votes, LBJ with all the resources of the presidency, everyone expected him to win a massive landslide.

Well, you know how McCarthy would frame it. What would he say? He would say that Johnson has won a victory, but it's a Pyrrhic victory. He absolutely would. Drawing on his knowledge of Roman history. Well, it's exactly what people say. So Johnson won 49% of the votes, McCarthy won 42% because of some obscure business about delegates that I've

actually never really been bothered to try and find out why. McCarthy wins more delegates, 20 out of 24 delegates from New Hampshire. He has this huge victory party at the Sheraton Hotel in Manchester, New Hampshire. I mean, Manchester, New Hampshire, I've been to Manchester, New Hampshire. I wouldn't massively recommend it as a destination. But anyway, there's loads of kids, you know, shouting victory and doing peace side stuff. I have to say they haven't actually won, but yeah, let them have their moment. In the next day's papers on TV, everybody says McCarthy has basically won.

I mean, I know technically Johnson has won, but it's a Pyrrhic victory. Isn't this wonderful? This is the most extraordinary moment in American political history. The monk, the poet, the guy nobody had ever heard of when they thought he was somebody else. He's kind of beaten Johnson, even though he hasn't. What an amazing thing. Hurrah, hurrah. And all this kind of thing. And McCarthy gets up there and he says, I think one of the most ironic things actually that anybody has ever said, if we come to Chicago with this strength, there will be no riots or demonstrations, but a great victory celebration. And we'll be doing an entire episode on how that didn't have to. Yeah, that didn't quite work out. So this is a shocking and seismic moment in American politics. LBJ is very badly wounded. Four days later, Robert Kennedy, who has said he will not run, steps out in the

Senate caucus room, the same room in which his brother John had declared his candidacy for the presidency. This is the Prince over the water. And he says, I'm running, I'm running against LBJ. I have strong feelings about it. It's clear to me now that I can't stay out. So this is a dagger aimed at Johnson's heart. And Johnson sitting there in the White House is in shock.

He says to an intern of his called Doris Kearns, who later wrote a book about this and became a very well-known biographer. He says, I felt that I'm being chased on all sides by a giant stampede coming at me from all directions, rioting blacks, demonstrating students, marching welfare mothers, squawking professors and hysterical reporters. And then the final straw, the thing I feared from the first day of my presidency was actually coming true. Robert Kennedy had openly announced his intention to reclaim the throne in the memory of his brother. And Johnson is a bully.

I mean, it's the sort of thing that primary school teachers always say about bullies. Oh bullies are cowards deep down. And in a way, I think there is a little bit that Johnson doesn't really fancy the fight. He gets news from Wisconsin, the next primary, his campaign manager goes out to Wisconsin, flies back to Washington and says, we're going to lose Wisconsin. I mean, this won't be a Pyrrhic victory. McCarthy is going to win two thirds of the vote. It's a big student state.

We are dead in Wisconsin. And then what? They look at the calendar, the next primaries, Oregon, California, New York. Is Johnson going to lose? Is he going to win any? Now he could still win the nomination. You don't need all the primaries, but he is looking at a really, really bruising spring. So he makes a decision. He's going to address the nation on the 31st of March to change the narrative. Sunday night, nine o'clock, live on TV. Nobody knows what's coming. So on that big day, Sunday the 31st, very early that morning at the White

House, Johnson's daughter, Linda flies in from California. She has left her husband, Chuck Robb, who is a Lieutenant in the Marines, who is about to be sent to Vietnam. Linda is heavily pregnant. She is in tears. She says to her father, why is my husband having to go to this country to fight, and I quote, for people who don't even want to be protected? And Johnson, I wanted to comfort her, but I could not.

He doesn't know what to say to her. So that morning, that afternoon, he's working on this speech that he's going to give. And that afternoon is done. He asks Vice President Humphrey to come in and he says, this is the speech. The speech will be a breakthrough. It will be an announcement that we're stopping the bombing of North Vietnam in an attempt to find peace. And Humphrey says to him, Humphrey is a very effusive guy. Humphrey says, Oh, Mr. President, that's a beautiful speech, just beautiful. I think it's the, it'll be the best speech you've ever made. And then LLBJ hands him a second piece of

paper and he says, I've got an alternative ending here for the speech. I think you should read it. And Humphrey reads the speech, burst into tears. He's crying as well. He's crying as well. He's crying as well. So they're all at it. He says, Oh, Mr. President, you can't mean it. You can't mean it.

And Johnson says, I haven't made my mind up. If I'm going to use that ending, I will let you know that evening. The broadcast starts at nine o'clock and there's 85 million people watching. And Johnson is on screen and he looks haggard. He looks exhausted. It looks like he's aged a decade in months. And Humphrey still doesn't know which ending Johnson has chosen, which he's going to go with. And only after Johnson is speaking live, does Humphrey get a phone call. And it's a phone

call from one of Johnson's aides. The president says to tell you he has chosen the second ending. So Johnson is still talking. He says to people, I realize the desire for peace in Vietnam. I'm unilaterally suspending American bombing of the North and I'm inviting Hanoi for peace talks. And he goes on talking about what this settlement would look like. And then he looks at Lady Bird, his wife, who was just off camera, and he gives her a little signal with his hand. And that is a sign he is going with this second ending. And he says, look, I know America is very badly divided. And he quotes Abraham Lincoln, a house divided against itself cannot stand. And then he says, with American sons in the field far away,

I don't think I should devote an hour or day of my time to any personal partisan causes or to any duties other than the awesome duties of this office, the presidency of your country, and then the line that sends shockwaves across the country. Accordingly, I shall not seek and I will not accept the nomination of my party for another term as your president. Unbelievable. The one man whose lust for power had driven him all his life has thrown in the towel. He's done.

He's gone. And so you spoke at the start of the episode about the parallels between 1968 and 2024. And this, I suppose, is the first glaring parallel. A sitting president who had been another Democrat president's vice president, who'd become president, achieved his great ambition standing down after one term. But the difference I think is that Biden stood down this year or withdrew from the race. Because he was forced to. After weeks of speculation, he had to be winkled out and it became unsustainable. With Johnson.

It's genuinely a bombshell. A massive, massive shock. People, you know, they knew it was going to be very tasty, the campaign for the Democratic nomination, but they never imagined that Johnson, of all people, a creature of politics who craves power so much, that he would just walk away. They can't believe it. Everybody is stunned. And for all of his rivals, so that's obviously McCarthy and Kennedy on the left, is Humphrey, his vice president. Then on the right, Richard Nixon, Ronald Reagan, Nelson Rockefeller, George Wallace down in Alabama. For all these people, this suddenly changes everything. Nobody knows now. The narrative that had seemed predetermined has

now been thrown into total flux. Because when the mighty oak falls, other trees can sprout. Oh, great metaphorical stuff, Tom. But we talked about the beginning, about this parade, the succession of events. And just five days after this, an even more dramatic moment as the story of America in 1968 will take another and deadlier twist. So we will be back very soon with that episode in which we will be telling the story of the assassination of Martin Luther King. And if you want to hear that and the rest of the series,

right now, you don't have to wait. You can go to therestishistory.com and join the club. And you can, of course, also get tickets for our forthcoming tour of the United States. So Tom, I think there are still some seats in Philadelphia, in New York and in Los Angeles. So we hope to see you all there. See you then. Bye-bye.

Bye-bye. in New York and in Los Angeles. So we hope to see you all there. See you then. Bye bye. Bye bye.