The Rest Is History - 537. Emperors of Rome: Claudius, Paranoia and Poison (Part 4)

Episode Date: February 6, 2025

Following the bloody assassination of the twenty-eight year old Emperor Caligula, Rome found herself without a leader. Who then should fill the enormous power vacuum left by the death of an emperor? Should Rome return to a Republic? Then, one overlooked candidate - a scion of the hallowed family of Augustus long lurking in the wings of imperial power - unexpectedly rose to the fore: Claudius, Caligula’s uncle. Famed as a drooling idiot all his life, Claudius’ apparent shortcomings had kept him safe from the ruthless ambitions of his family and enemies. But his life of anonymity would now be brought to an abrupt end, with a shocking coup led by the Praetorian Guard. The Praetorians, one of the most potent forces in Rome, feared the loss of the emperor’s patronage, and so pulled him out from the curtain behind which he had been hiding, carried him to their camp, and declared him emperor. The reign that ensued - described in gory, glistening, salacious detail by the Roman historian Suetonius - would see Claudius dismantle his mask of imbecility to reveal himself clever and studious, but easily duped by his advisors, freemen, and wives alike. It would see him claim the conquest of Britain, increase the strength of the Roman army, fall foul of the senate, play cuckold in one of the most famous sexual scandals of all time, and marry his niece. All the while, the shadows of Nero’s rise to supreme power were lengthening… Join Tom and Dominic for the mighty conclusion of their journey through the lives of Rome’s first Caesars, as described in rich, technicolour by Suetonius, climaxing with the epic reign of Rome’s most unexpected emperor: Claudius. Pre-order Tom Holland's new translation of 'The Lives of the Caesars' here: https://www.penguin.co.uk/books/279727/the-lives-of-the-caesars-by-suetonius/9780241186893 _______ Twitter: @TheRestHistory @holland_tom @dcsandbrook Producer: Theo Young-Smith Assistant Producer: Tabby Syrett Editor: Jack Meek Executive Producers: Jack Davenport + Tony Pastor Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Thank you for listening to The Rest is History. For weekly bonus episodes, ad-free listening, early access to series, and membership of our much-loved chat community, go to therestishistory.com and join the club. Returning to W Network and StacTV. The West Side Ripper is back. If you're not killing these people, then who is? That's what I want to know. Starring Kaylee Cuoco and Chris Messina. The only investigating I'm doing these days is who shit their pants.

Killer messaged you yesterday? This is so dangerous. I got to get out of this. Based on a true story. New season Mondays at 9 Eastern and Pacific. Only on W. Stream on St true story. New season Mondays at 9 Eastern and Pacific. Only on W. Stream on Stack TV. When the conspirators who were lurking in wait for Caligula moved everyone else along, on the grounds that the Emperor wished to be alone, Claudius retreated to a wing of the palace known as the Hermaeum, and not long afterwards,

alarmed by the distant shouts of, Murder! crept away to a nearby balcony, where he hid himself behind the curtains hanging in front of the door. There he cowered, and as he did so, a soldier who happened to be wandering past noticed his feet and dragged him out intending to ask him who he was, but then as he sank to his knees in terror, recognised him and hailed him as Emperor. The soldier then led him away to where the other Praetorians were all milling around, uncertain what to do. The soldiers put him in a litter, and because his own attendants had run away, took it in turns to carry the unhappy and fearful man on their shoulders to their camp, and all the crowds they passed on the way pitted

him on the assumption that he was an innocent being bundled off to execution. Received within the ramparts, he spent the night under the protection of the Praetorians, but in a mood of relief rather than of any great expectation. But as the next day passed, so large crowds of people gathered outside the Praetorian camp, agitating for a single man to be given rule and calling for Claudius by name. These chants prompted him to allow an armed assembly of the Praetorians to swear allegiance to him and to promise each one of them 15,000 Sesterces, thereby becoming the first of the Caesars to win the loyalty of the military by paying them a bribe. So that last sentence

I'm not sure whether that's really true, but that's Suetonius in his life of Claudius as translated in the New Penguin Classics Edition by our very own Tom Holland. And Tom there, Suetonius, has taken the story forwards from where we left it last time. We left it on a cliffhanger. The Emperor Caligula, mad or not, definitely a populist, has been assassinated by Cassius Caria and the Praetorian Guard and the question is, is Rome going to turn back the clock 60 years to the time of the Republic and all the chaos at the end of the Republic or is it going to continue with the family of Augustus known as the Caesars?

So take us forward, what happens next? Yeah, well, it's the pressing question, what happens next? Is an eligible Caesar to hand? Or as you were implying, might it be time to turn the clock back, to go back to the republican system of government? And what makes that question even more pressing is the fact that, as we've been saying throughout this series, the autocracy of the Caesars is not formally a hereditary monarchy. In fact, formally it's not a monarchy at all. And so there are no rules governing the succession. That said, it has come to be accepted that the emperor should be a Caesar. So that means an heir either by adoption, as was the case with Tiberius or by bloodline, as was the case with Caligula of the deified Augustus, the first of the

emperors and who is now a god. So the question then is what are the options? Who is there on hand? And I suppose the obvious question, which we didn't touch on in our episode on Circular, is has he left any children? And although he's only 28 when he gets murdered, he hasn't stinted when it comes to having wives. I mean, he's burned through a lot of them. And his last wife is the one that actually seems to have been his great love and she's a woman called Melonia Cisonia. And she isn't particularly young. She's not particularly attractive, but she does seem to have appealed to something very deep and colligula. I mean, he really knows. Well, actually, I think we can have a fairly

good idea what it is. They both seem to have certainly have had a taste for dressing up. Lucy Worsley. Well, to a degree. So when he goes riding off to see soldiers or whatever, he dresses her up in a military outfit as well. So she clearly enjoys that. But he also gets her to pose nude for friends. So to that extent, she's not like Lucy Worsley, but she's clearly, she's a fun girl. She gels well with Caligula's inimitable madcap sense of humor. I think it would be fair to think she's a zany funster. Right. And she has given him one child, but unfortunately for fans of the Bloodline of Caligula, that child is a daughter and Caligula has named her after his

beloved sister who died and whom he deified in his grief. So he calls her Julia Drusilla. And she's a lovely sweet-natured girl, isn't she by all accounts? Yeah, so this again I think is one of the, I mean very funny bit from Serotonius. So this is Caligula talking about Drusilla. There existed no sure evidence that she was indeed his child, he believed, than her temper, which was so violent whenever she played with other little children she would scratch at their faces and jab at their eyes with her fingers so daddy watches on, oh chip off the old block. So what happens to them? Well according to Suetonius they get murdered along with Caligula. He says that they've been

accompanying him when they run into the Praetorians but Josephus, the great Judean historian who has very precise information about what happens, he reports that they weren't with him, but when the news came that he'd been murdered, they come and seek out the body of their husband straight father, and they find him and they kind of lie prostrated with grief, mourning him. And this is where they are found by a Praetorian who has been sent to dispatch them. And Cezonia looks up at the soldier and she's, you know, sobbing and she says, finish the last act of the drama. So again, this idea that everyone in the house of Caesar is an actor on a stage and the Praetorian duly does as he's told. He slits Cezonia's throat and

he picks up a little Drusilla and he smashes out her brains on the side of a wall. So that's the end of them. So they have gone and there are no male descendants of Augustus at all, full stop. And there's no male candidate with the blood of Augustus in their veins to succeed Caligula. And so it's not surprising that there are many in the Senate who do think, well, this might be the time to bring back the, the Republic to kind of wake up from this terrible nightmare that we've been living through. And so that evening, you know, the soldiers come, the guards come and they say to the consuls who've taken control of the city now that Caligula is gone and they say, what's the watchword? And they say liberty.

So it's all very noble and upstanding. And the next day they have a kind of very grandiose, florid debate on the need to restore the Republic. Words like liberty and various other abstractions are banded around with great abandon. But while they are having this debate, they are forgetting the fact that there are other players in this crisis. One group of which of course is the praetorians, the imperial guard who some of whom had been prompted to murder Caligula, but who absolutely do not want to see the overthrow of the monarchy because they depend on it for their status and their income. So obviously they don't want to

republic, there'd be no role for them. And the other kind of player in the drama, of course, is the people, the mass of the Roman people, who likewise mourn Caligula. They're very upset that he's gone. And they too want a Caesar, because it is Caesar who keeps them fed above all. It's Caesar who organises the grain supply. And it's Caesar who keeps the masses entertained, who provides the gladiatorial shows and so on. So they likewise don't really want a republic. So let's get back to this moment of the curtain. This bloke in the Palatine, the Praetorian, he sees these feet sticking out under the curtain. He takes Claudius to the Praetorian camp and presumably the Praetorians at this point are thinking of Claudius purely as their

puppet. He's somebody from the family, so they feel a sentimental attachment perhaps and they think we need a figurehead. Here's this bloke, who cares what his backstory is. He's got the right bloodline. Great. Bring him in. Well, we'll discuss in due course, I think, whether it's just luck or whether it's perhaps something slightly more organised. But yes, you're right. They find Claudius. Claudius is a part of the August family. He's quite old by this point. He's born in 10 BC. So, Caligula is murdered in 41. So he's into his fifties. And people may be wondering, well, I mean, if he's in his fifties, he's a member of the August family. Why hasn't he become emperor before? Why isn't he the obvious candidate? And I suppose, you know, why hasn't Caligula killed him?

If he's an alternative Emperor. And actually, I said he's got the right bloodline, but that's not quite right, isn't it? Because now it comes back to this issue that Suetonius was very interested in with Caligula, which really loomed large for Suetonius then, and I guess must do now again, which is exactly whom are you descended from? Yeah, this really, really matters. So who is Claudius? Um, so to answer that, we need to go back to the scandalous marriage that, uh, Augusta's had with this woman called Livia. So Livia is a Claudian.

She had previously been married to another Claudian. She'd had a baby boy, Tiberius. She's then pregnant by her first husband when Augustus decides he really wants her and marries her. He's in a position to obviously impose his will. So Livia is massively pregnant when she marries Augustus and shortly afterwards she gives birth to a second son who is called Drusus. And Drusus, like Tiberius, is a tremendous war hero. He's entrusted by Augustus with assorted German campaigns. He invades so far east that he reaches the line of the Elbe where he sees the ghostly apparition of a huge woman telling him to turn back. But he's very dashing, very heroic.

And then he dies young, which of course confirms his kind of reputation in the hearts of the Roman people. And it's all kind of very, you know, early years of Rome in a story by Livy. Tiberius escorts the corpse of his brother back to Rome on foot, weeping the whole way, very, very kind of heroic tableau. So Drusus is much admired, much loved. And fortunately, he has given the Roman people another war hero because Drusus is the father of Germanicus, who we talked about in the previous episode, the father of Caligula, very dashing, perfect in every way apart from his spindly legs, absolute war hero again, and everyone loves him. However, Germanicus is not Drusus' only son. So he has a second son, and this is Claudius. And Claudius, as we said, is born in 10 BC, 1st of August, at Lugdunum,

which is Lyon in Gaul, the kind of the great cult centre for the Augustan cult in Gaul. And Claudius is born, Drusus dies the following year in 9 BC, and so the infant Claudius is raised by his mother, Antonia, who is the daughter of Mark Antony. So just to recap for people who don't know the family tree in front of them, Claudius is the nephew of Tiberius. He is the brother of Germanicus who never got to become emperor. He's also the grandson of Mark Antony. I mean, he's very well connected. Yeah. And he's the step-grandson of Antony's great rival, the first emperor, Augustus. So he has all kinds of connections, although the crucial one, the one with Augustus, is not a blood

connection. Yeah, and that wouldn't be an absolutely hopeless problem because Tiberius wasn't, but he gets adopted and in the Roman system, if you get adopted, then you do become the son. I mean, there's no, you know, I mean, as good as being a kind of blood, a blood son. So it would have been possible for Augustus or Tiberius at some point to have adopted Claudius, but they don't. And why do they not? Well, the words of Suetonius, for almost the entire length of his childhood and adolescence, he suffered from a range of chronic illnesses. These left him so impaired both mentally and physically that even once he had come of age, he was regarded

as unfitted for either public or private duties. Right. And what are these illnesses? Well, so Suetonius goes on to list them. He has weak knees, which gives him a kind of hobbling, almost kind of limping gait. His laughter, Suetonius says, is an unbecoming bray. It's a bit like Kamala Harris. I was about to say Kamala Harris. People gave her a lot of hard time, but I didn't mind her laugh actually. I thought it was quite endearing. Well, you might have liked Claudius's then.

But I wouldn't say hers was a bray. If his was a bray, I would dislike it because I don't like a braying laugh. Okay. Well, Suetonius says it was a bray. So obviously it was because your Tony is, is never wrong. So Tony says he stammers and twitches. Yeah. And when he gets angry, he drooled and snorted mucus. And I hate that in a man, Tom, that's the snorting of mucus. And apparently Claudius gets angry quite a lot.

So there's quite a lot of snot flying around the Palatine. Yeah. So clearly he, he suffers from various ailments and disadvantages and people might be wondering, well, do his grandmother, Livia and his mother, Antonia show him sympathy and compassion or are they monstrously ableist? And I'm afraid to say that they are monstrously ableist. So Livia is so mortified by having this grandson who kind of twitches and limps and blows snot everywhere that she can barely bring herself to talk to him and generally communicates with him by kind of sending him written missives. And again to quote

Suetonius, his mother Antonia used to describe him as a monstrosity of a human being, begun by nature but only half finished, and would accuse anyone whose stupidity she particularly wished to emphasise of being a bigger fool than her son Claudius. But actually I tell you he's really nice to him, and this bears out my view that actually I think you're very hard on this person and you paint him in an unduly dark light, and that is Augustus. Augustus is ultimately a kind man and is lovely to Claudius. Except when slaughtering senators.

Yeah, but who cares about them? He's very nice to Claudius, isn't he? He's very nice to Claudius. He's not very nice to Claudius. Yeah, but compared with the rest of the family, Tom. He's nicer than his mother, for sure. I mean mean Augustus agrees that it would be embarrassing to his regime to have Claudius kind of exposed to the public eye, but he does kind of recognise qualities in Claudius. Read Tom to the listeners what Augustus wrote about him.

Right, so this is a letter quoted by Suetonius. I mean I love it when Suetonius quotes letters, you feel you know really up close. And yeah Augustus wrote to Livia, the poor boy has Quaterat Demonstrandum. There's another letter where he says, it's amazing, I went to hear Claudius give a talk about some academic subject and it was brilliant. Amazing. Okay, now you said to give a talk about this academic subject. Now it's true, you can be academically very prominent and a complete and utter fool. And I think we can all think of people who tick that particular box. But you, this business that Antonio said, Oh, anyone who's really stupid, I call him a bigger fool than, than Claudius and Claudius is an absolute dribbling idiot. If

he's a dribbling idiot, how is it he's giving academic lectures? I mean, again, people who've spent time at our great universities may find that question easy to answer, but no doubt you all have your own answer, Tom. I think that it is a kind of general assumption in the Greek and Roman world that if you look like an idiot, you are an idiot. That's, that's the kind of core assumption. They're not very woke at all on such matters, but it's evident that Claudius, despite sending streams of snot everywhere when he gets cross, is very intellectual academically able. So he's fluent in Greek, he's very knowledgeable about literature and precisely because he's

not allowed to enjoy public life. You know, he's not allowed to go and follow in the footsteps of Germanicus and lead expeditions into Germany. So that gives him the chance to spend, or I guess if you're a Roman aristocrat, waste his time on scholarly pursuits. And the mark, I guess, of how much he wastes his time, of how contemptible a figure he is by the standards of the Roman aristocracy, is actually he becomes a historian. So he's a total loser. Yeah, a slobbering, twitching, socially incompetent historian. Who would have thought it? Thank goodness there are none of those left anymore, Tom. And Dominic, the other possible point of comparison with historians that certainly I know is that

he writes enormously long books. So his editor says, so here's a commission to write history of the Etruscans. Could you keep it down to two books? And he writes 20 books. And he gets commissioned to write history of Carthage, make it one book, eight books. Sometimes it's good to write an improperly immersive, well textured history. And that takes multiple volumes. What can I say? With chapters on snooker. And do you know, Claudius would have loved all that because he's very, he's, he, he writes a. You know, he's interested in pretty much everything. And he's a historian.

He's a contemporary historian. He is a contemporary. He writes about things within living memory. Yes he does, which is very foolish of him or brave. And I think this may be one of the reasons why his mother and grandmother think that he's an idiot because he writes a history of Rome from the assassination of Caesar. And so Tony says he was regularly criticized by his mother and grandmother for covering the events that followed the murder of Caesar. And so because he felt unable to write about them frankly

or truthfully, skipped to the subsequent period of peace which followed the civil wars. So obviously, the story of how Augustus comes to power, there's a lot of murder, there's a lot of killing, there's a lot of bloodshed. And basically, Livya is saying to him, you know, just don't go there. We have drawn a veil over all of that. And here you are trying to... Yeah, that's mad for Claudius. Just don't do it. That's absolute rank idiocy. I mean, that is rank idiocy from him to rake all that up again. But he does write it. And he actually, you know, he gets to give a public reading. So it's like he gets invited to a, you know, a literature festival or something. And he he starts reading it. Then just, just, just as he started reading this, I'll quote again, quote

Sotanias, a great gust of laughter swept the audience when a bench broke under the weight of an enormously fat man. And even after everybody else had calmed down, Claudius found it impossible to put the incident from his mind and would periodically collapse into fits of giggles. Oh my God. So I'll tell you one thing, Theo would never forgive me if I didn't remind everybody that this is actually what happened to our erstwhile producer, Don Johnson, when we went to New Zealand. Remember he sat on that bench and it collapsed? Yes, I do. Yes, outside of the home of a New Zealand farmer who had just been showing us

around a cave complex with glow worms. And it had been in the family for 150 years. That was literally the best thing that's ever happened to Theo, watching Don break that bench. Anyway, let's move on. So, Claudius leads, you know, he leads this kind of essentially inoffensive life of the scholar, except watching people break benches and he has to be told often about writing on sensitive subjects, but he doesn't get into trouble. There's no kind of risk to him

or anything. But then in 37, Caligula, who is of course Claudius' nephew, and I'm aware for listeners that it is quite complicated keeping all these relations in the head, but Claudius is Caligula's uncle. So Caligula comes to power, and by this stage, Claudius is in his late 40s. And Caligula's succession is both good and bad news for Claudius. So it's good news because Caligula doesn't really respect the Senate. And so he doesn't mind having Claudius enter it. He appoints Claudius to be his co-consul when he comes to power. And so at last, Claudius has become a senator. And in due course later in Caligula's reign, he gets a second consulship. And when Caligula is absent, Claudius presides

over kind of public entertainments, public games, and so on. Which must be proof that Caligula thinks of his uncle as a harmless fool, because he wouldn't be promoting him in this way as a potential rival, if he thought he was a serious, formidable person. Yes, I think that's right. And I think that Caligula finds it funny to have Claudius in the Senate and also on hand because then he can bully him. So there are lots of stories that again have the kind of the smack of truth that Caligula will invite Claudius to a dinner party. Claudius is quite old.

He's also very, very fond of a drink. And so he's very prone to kind of falling asleep when he does all the other, either Caligula and the lads will pelt him with olive stones and bread rolls and that kind of flashman style, flashman style. And there's also this great gag, which, which the Tonyist reports that that they people will put slippers on his hands and then abruptly wake him so that he'll wake with a jolt rub his eyes and have find slippers. I actually find that genuinely funny. Is that the kind of jpe you got up to in the dawns? Yeah, I genuinely think that I'd love to see that. Well, so satanist writes and this is my translation very influenced obviously by

experience of being on the rest of history, Just for the banter was the excuse. Oh dear. Some people who listen to this podcast say there's too much banter, but I think if anything there is not enough. Well, it's not as much as, it's not banter on the level of Caligula's court. I think that's safe to say. There is one moment where Claudius might be in serious danger, which is people may remember that there's been this conspiracy against Caligula. He's gone to Germany, he's gone to Gaul, he's coming back to Rome and he serious danger, which is people may remember that there's been this conspiracy against Caligula. He's gone to Germany, he's gone to Gaul, he's coming back to Rome and he tells the Senate, I hate you. And the person he says this to is a delegation of senators led

by Claudius. And Caligula is furious that Claudius has come. And he basically says, you know, you think that you're playing the role of a tutor disciplining me, like I'm a kind of naughty boy or something. And so Caligula's response to this, it is said is to pick Claudius up and throw him into the, into the Rhone. So the meeting takes place in Lyon, fully clothed. So that's not looking good for Claudius. And there are also, it is said, kind of portents that seem to prophesy the golden future that Claudius can look forward to. So that very first time when he becomes consul and he walks out into the forum and he has all his, you know, his, uh, his lictors with the, the kind

of the rods and axes on their shoulders, the markers of Claudius' status, it is said that an eagle descends and lands on their shoulders, the markers of Claudius' status. It is said that an eagle descends and lands on his shoulder. It is said that. That's doing a lot of work. But the fact this story is told... Is worrying for Claudius. Is worrying for Claudius. Yeah.

Yeah. Because Caligula want to get rid of him. So is it possible that Claudius could become emperor? I mean, you know, the big problem is he's not descended from Augustus and everyone thinks he's an idiot, but it's still a risk if people are even contemplating the possibility that he might be, you know, capable of becoming the emperor that Caligula will then have him killed because the evidence suggests that's what happens to people who are in the line of descent. In the event of course, Caligula is murdered. The Praetorian finds him hiding behind a curtain. They take him to the camp and Claudius becomes emperor. And the whole way through this, you know, this two day sequence of events, Claudius

is saying, I don't want to be emperor. It's mad. I'm wholly unsuited to it. People will remember that passage that you read. Suetonius ends by saying, he is the first of the Caesars to win the loyalty of the military by paying them a bribe. Now that's not true. I mean, Augustus, Tiberius, and Legla, they'd all recognized what their security depended on. But with Claudius, it's very, very overt. The amount of money he gives is obscene and it's paid when he's in their camp and it enables him to become emperor. So is it possible the stuff about the curtain is nonsense and an invention, a folktale, too good to be true and that actually he's in the conspiracy from the beginning, he's been paying these blokes and actually all this, he may not be acting out of ambition

so much as fear. He thinks I'm next for the chopping block, basically I've got to act now, I'm not such an idiot, I've got to act now. I'm not such an idiot. I'm going to act now because otherwise Caligula is going to have me killed. I mean, we'll never know because we don't have the sources. But I think when you weigh them up, I think you'd have to say that's very, very probable. Right. Because otherwise, I mean, the sequence of events has the faint kind of quality of a, you know, a kind of myth or something. Yeah. Exactly. They find him behind a curtain.

Find him behind a curtain. Yeah. You know, they, they, they know to find him. They know to take him to the camp and Claudius knows, you know, he's got the money ready to pay the cash. Yeah. He's got the cash ready to pay them. Yeah.

So I think it's pretty likely that, that he was involved. And of course, you know, the fact that he's come to power in that way, protesting that he doesn't want to be a part of it, disguises the fact that what has happened is basically a coup. You know, it is a coup, plain and simple. It's the first coup really since Augustus came to power. There's not been a kind of peaceful handover of power. And the consequences of that, the consequence

of how he comes to power and the fact that he's neither a blood nor an adoptive descendant of Augustus, will crucially shape the course of his rule and its character. So Augustus, Tiberius, Caligula, they had ruled as a princeps, as a first man, as a first citizen, even Caligula who had despised the notion that Rome might have any Republican traditions. Nevertheless, I mean, that was officially the role that he was playing. But the thing is that what Caligula had kind of drawn attention to, the brute underpinnings of the imperial system, the fact that it's dependent on military power. There's another aspect to it, which is that if that's the case, if it is a monarchy, a military monarchy, then it's becoming an institution. It's something

that you can inherit, not just the title, but an entire way of administering and governing the empire. And it's Claudius because he doesn't have this family link, because when he gets the name of Caesar, it has to be voted to him by the Senate. It's not his by right. What that does is to reveal to people that this is now something that you can inherit in the form of an institution. And Claudius's ability to make that work, to make the imperial institution, the imperial office work as an institution will be absolutely fundamental to the question of whether he will be a success and ultimately whether the autocracy will be a success and ultimately whether, you know, whether the autocracy will be a success and whether Rome itself will endure and prosper. Right. So high stakes. High stakes. So come back

after the break to see if the stammering, twitching, socially inept historian turns out to be a good emperor. This episode is brought to you by NordVPN. Dominic, what do you find useful about NordVPN? Well, Tom, as you know, I am absolutely passionate about NordVPN. One of the things I love about them is their Threat Protection Pro, an absolutely brilliant antivirus tool. It is so effective and so powerful. It is integrated directly into the NordVPN app. So what it does is it protects you from phishing and other cyber threats.

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history. When you sign up, you can receive a bonus four months on top of your plan. And there is no risk with Nord's 30 day money back guarantee. The link is also in the episode description box. Welcome back to The Rest Is History. Claudius, written off for half a century, an idiot, a fool, a stammerer, unfit to be exhibited in public, is now the master of the Roman world. And Tom, how does he do? The answer is actually he does all right, doesn't he? Yeah, he does. He's very proactive. He's full of ideas. He's willing to experiment. And I think you get the sense of a man who has profited from his study of history and

from his ringside view of the court of the Caesars. I think he's been sitting there and thinking, well, you know, this is what I do. This is what I try. And he puts these various plans into action. And I think he's a pretty good emperor. And because he's grown up in the court of Augustus and because he studied the reign of Augustus in the context of what had gone before, the kind of the Republican traditions, I think he is alert to a degree that his predecessors kind of hadn't really thought through just

how cleverly Augustus had fused these kind of rival traditions that we've been talking about. The kind of the elite traditionalist approach and the kind of populist approach. And Augustus had been brilliant at playing to both galleries, wearing kind of both masks. He had attempted to appeal to the Senate as Tiberius had done and to the people as Caligula had done. Claudius, his aim is to try and repeat that trick to try and get both the Senate and the people on board. Now in doing that, he faces an obvious problem, which is that he lacks the prestige of Augustus. He doesn't have the background. He doesn't have the range of achievements. And of course everyone thinks

he's an idiot, which is a kind of ongoing challenge. And on top of that, there's also the fact that there are lots of senators who just really resent him being emperor, partly because lots of them had wanted to restore the Republic and partly also because there were lots in the Senate who think that they could be a much better emperor than this guy who kind of dribbles and shakes and you know, blows snot. And so behind his back, they're constantly mocking him and Claudius is well aware of this. but of course, you know, Claudius is, has been mocked all his life and here he is. He's emperor.

And there are plenty of examples of politicians who laughed at a lot of the time, but actually are big enough to ignore it and end up being pretty successful. So Claudius is, I mean, you know, he rules for almost 14 years. And despite the fact that there are kind of repeated displays of resentment and contempt from the Senate, and in fact, even as we'll see the occasional conspiracy, he shrugs it all aside. Now it's true that he is a kind of a he's a bit paranoid. So he's the first emperor to institute friskings of people who were brought into his private presence. And when he first enters the Senate House, it's a month after he's come to power, he does so accompanied by guards. And that's

a reminder of the fact that, just as Caligula had done, he's identified what the real source of his power within the capital is. And he is unembarrassed about this. So he mints various coins that kind of flatter the Praetorians. So there's one that's stamped with an image of their camp. There's another that shows Claudius shaking hands with the Praetorian standard bearer. Of course, he's given them massive donatives. He also gives massive donatives and pay rises to the legions. And you know, senators can laugh at him all they like, but it's Claudia Susan charge of the legions.

So ultimately that is the bedrock of his rule. And I think it's fair to say that even though they may feel resentful, even though they may kind of despise him, obviously he's not calligular. And so it is very hard for any senator not to feel a certain measure of relief that they've got someone who isn't going to try and get off with their wives or, you know, all the other things that he was getting up to. And Claudius, of course, is, you know, he's a historian, so he understands the role the Senate has played in Roman history. He respects it. He basically kind of shares their values. He's an aristocrat, you know, and more than that, he's a Claudian. And so he knows the rules. He knows how to dress. He knows how to speak. he knows how to act the part of a traditional Republican Roman aristocrat.

And we've talked the whole way through how being a successful emperor really is as much as anything about working out what role you're going to play and then playing it well. Ronald Reagan. Yeah. Being an actor. Yeah. It's a really important thing for any politician and any point in history, I would say. Massively important. Yeah. And if you lack the charisma and the

self-confidence to play a part that will be appealing to people who it's important to influence, then you're not going to be basically a good politician. And on that level, Claudius is a good politician. Now, of course, he has this limp, he has his infirmities, but when he sits down, or when he just kind of stands still, he looks impressive. And Suetonius clearly recognizes that this is important. So he says, especially while lying down, he did not fail to give an impression of majesty and dignity. You know, he looks good. He looks impressive. Now, probably the most single most famous famous thing that he does that people who've

listened to a lot of the rest of his history will remember is he orders the invasion of Britain. He doesn't personally lead it because he's hardly a kind of obvious military man, but he, you know, he associates, he's associated with it. Right. And it's his invasion. And presumably he's doing that because he knows from his study of history that nothing is better calculated to stir the emotions of the populace than a military

victory even if it's against a people as useless as the Britons. Exactly. And more than that, that this is what a Claudian and a Caesar, so these, you know, the Julians, that these two great kind of families who've been conjoined in the house of Augustus, that that's what their ancestors did. They went out and they conquered people. It's what Julius Caesar had done. It's what various Claudian generals had done. And so Claudius is saying, I am their heir. And again, as you say, he doesn't actually lead it himself, but once Britain has, you know, the bridgehead has been established and Colchester is on the

verge of falling, Claudius goes over and he does it with elephants to create as big a splash as possible. And then when he comes back, he reenacts it. So he presides over kind of various reenactments on the campus marshes, showing highlights from the campaign in Britain, cultures are being stormed, various British kings surrendering. And across the Mediterranean, he has himself portrayed as a kind of buff rapist. So there's this freeze from Aphrodisias in what's now Turkey, which shows Britannia as a woman whose robes have been torn from her and Claudius as this kind of muscle-bound guy who's forcing her to the ground. And obviously that's not how a politician today would want to be represented, but that's how you know, plays well with Roman audiences. And it's clearly how Claudius wanted to be seen.

He's, you know, he's no longer the kind of elderly, stammering, twitching historian. He's a man of action who subdues provinces, subdues women. And he's a Caesar. Yeah. But it's not just military, is that he likes a grand plongéeée public works, sort of a lot of hydraulic action. I think it's fair to say. So he's very into hydrology. Another thing he'd written a book about, he'd written a book about canals in Mesopotamia.

God, sounds fascinating. Yeah, except, you know, Grand Plongée, again, I mean, Caesar had been into that, Augustus had been into that, and the Claudians definitely had been into that. So one of his most famous ancestors, Appius Claudius, had built the Appian Way, the great road that joins Rome to the kind of the hill of Italy. And Claudius seems to be genuinely enthusiastic about taking up that battle of improving infrastructure in Rome. So the obvious thing that every emperor has to worry about is the grain supply. And historically it's been a problem that Rome does not have a deep sea port. So at the mouth of the type of this is port Ostia, which I know Dominic,

you're a big fan of you. Brilliant. Yeah. You love it. Don't you? I think Ostia is one of the best places you can go. If you go to Rome, my single recommendation to the listeners is to go to Ostia Antica. It's as good as Pompeii and there's nobody else there.

There you go. Youste Antica. It's as good as Pompeii and there's nobody else there. That there you go. You've heard it. Okay. Well, Claudius would be thrilled to hear that because, because he, he decides that he's going to, he's going to build a massive deep sea port at the mouth of the Tiber, um, and when he summons engineers and tells them this is what he's going to do, they throw up their hands in horror and, and say, you know, on no account attempt, this it'll be a disaster. It'll be a kind of HS2 fiasco. But you know, Claudius is C, so he

can do what he likes. And if it serves the good of the Roman people to remold the land, to gouge out the bottom of the sea, then that's what he's going to do. And so he goes ahead. He also, he's a great man for an aqueduct. He builds two enormous aqueducts, and one of them, the aqua Claudia, is probably the greatest of all Rome's aqueducts. And what's fascinating about them is that they, like Claudius, are simultaneously very modern and very ancient. So they're kind of cutting edge engineering, but they have the cladding of a kind of old school aqueduct. And I think that's a beautiful summation of what Claudius is about. Efficiency, modernity, but dress it up to look old. I mean, that's basically

what I'd like as well. I have to say I'd be all in favour of that. And these are recognised by contemporaries as being astonishing achievements. So Pliny the Elder, he writes that they are wonders without rival in the world. And so obviously this re-downs again greatly to Claudius' credit, makes him very, very popular with the people who look to Caesar to keep them watered, to keep them fed. And it's also popular because it gives them jobs. So it's not slaves who are doing the work. It's the mass of the people and it's kind of Keynesian scheme. Yeah, putting money into the economy. Very good. So the other thing is that Claudius is not, although he's quite old school, he's not like a Tiberius kind of dur killjoy who

sneers at the pleasures of the populace. So you said Claudius would like a chapter on snooker. He'd enjoy a night out at a smoke-filled snooker hall. He absolutely would. Yes, he absolutely would. So as I said, he writes a book on gambling, which is seen as being a very de classe occupation. He enjoys the pleasures of the masses. And in fact, he's so keen on gladiatorial combat that Suetonius writes that he is shockingly obsessed by executions, which in a kind of a day of spectacles in an amphitheatre, the climax would be gladiators, then before that you'd have the wild beasts, and before that you would have the Executions. And the Executions is kind of, you know, you've got to be an obsessive fan to go and watch

them. And Claudius is a kind of, you know, he does like to go and watch them. So it's like going to see a famous band or something and going to see the warm up act. The warm up act. So going to the Olympics and going to watch like some terrible sport that you've no interest in. Yeah, exactly. It's unsurprising that a lot of the shows that he puts on are very, very famous. And in fact, one of them gives rise to perhaps one of the most famous sayings from the whole of Roman history. He's trying to drain this lake in the countryside above Rome. And to mark the final completion of this project before the canal is open that will drain the

lake, he has a great sea battle staged there. And all the gladiators who've been assembled onto the boats to stage this turn to Claudius, where he's looking very kind of splendid. You know, he sat down looking tremendously imperious and they say, hail Caesar, we who are about to die salute you. And that's where this is from. That is where that phrase has come from. Although it's, I mean, it's very, very Claudius that

he then totally messes it up. So when they say we're about to die salute you, he replies or not, because, you know, maybe some of them will, won't die. I mean, it's kind of very Donnish, very waspish humor or not. And so all the gladiators hear him say that and so they think, oh, brilliant, he's pardoning us. We don't have to fight. And so they kind of put down their weapons and refuse to fight. And Claudius is so outraged by this that he gets up out of his throne and hurries down to yell at them and tell them to get a move on. And of course, when he does that, he hobbles and limps and the impression of majesty and splendor is compromised. However, he does manage to persuade the guys to the gladiators to pick up their weapons and so the fight goes ahead.

That's good news for the crowd. Good news for the crowd. Absolutely. Maybe less good news for the gladiators. Now, there is of course a problem with this, which is that it's very expensive. And that is compounded by the fact that Claudius' predecessor, Caligula, had also been very keen on lavishing money on extravaganzas. So the treasury is pretty bare, but Claudius is very proactive. And again, I think he's clearly thought about what he's going to do. And he wants to set the administration of the household of Caesar on as firm a footing as he can,

because he recognizes that that administration is also effectively the administration of the entire empire. So until Claudius, the fact that Caesar needs money, because the money that he has is basically the income that keeps the empire running, had been disguised, or at least hadn't properly been acknowledged. But Claudius, perhaps because of the circumstances in which he's come to power, he's more like a military strongman who's come to power in a coup than a kind of hereditary monarch. He's kind of unabashed about the need to make his administration as streamlined and efficient as possible. And so the people he turns to for that are the people that any wealthy Roman

who needs specialists would turn to. And these are people who are slaves or freedmen. Because as Caesar, he has the pick of the ablest, smartest people, you know, Greeks with particular specialisms in various fields of finance or whatever, and so these freed men are basically entrusted by Claudius with the running of the Empire and they proved to be very, very effective at it. So these are the people like anyone who's read I, Claudius or remember Narcissus and Pallas and people like that who presumably they're very bright and they're very good, but I would guess they must attract a lot of haters. Of course, because everyone in the Senate is massively resentful. And

of course it also plays into the stereotype of Claudius as a foolish old man who is easily manipulated and dominated by people who properly should be kept firmly under thumb of whom slaves and freedmen would be the paradigm. So under the thumb as he was of these men, so that's the freedmen, the favorites, he played the part not of a princeps but of a flunky dispensing magistracies here and military commands there, pardoning and punishing people, largely oblivious to how much he was the creature of this or that favorites interests. So this is a crucial part of the image of Claudius that he's an idiot who essentially is so feeble minded that he's become the plaything of his favorites. Now we know that's not true because in Egypt we found, when I say we, I mean scholars, archaeologists

have found documentary evidence for the close attention that Claudius plays to the administration of his empire and the kind of the evident intelligence with which he corresponds to people in provinces across the span of the Roman world. He's a very smart, able guy. And actually the fact he has all these freedmen serving him, this isn't evidence of his senility or imbecility. It's evidence of his astute ability to marshal innovation. But part of what makes his contemporaries and posterity assume that Claudius is feeble-minded is that there's a sense that he's under the thumb not just of freed men but also even worse of women

and particularly of a succession of wives of whom perhaps the most notorious is a woman called Messalina. Now I was hoping we'd get on to Messalina. So Messalina is, he basically has his pick I guess, does he? And he picks a very young, beautiful and crucially very blue-blooded white. I think it's the blue-blooded that matters. I think the beauty and youth is a, you know, these are perks. Will Barron She's the great-grandniece of Augustus, right? So she helps him to sort of say, I'm the heir to the greatest emperor, the first emperor. Will Barron And that is a crucial role that she plays. And it gives her a certain degree of independent power. Because Claudius knows, and everyone else knows, that being married to Messalina, who

is the great-grandniece of Augustus, this is a crucial buttressing of his status and prestige. And her significance and her kind of independence of operation is enhanced by the fact that in AD 41, she gives him crucially a male heir. So he now has a son who can inherit this, you know, his role in the House of Caesar. With a great name. Right. So two years later, Claudius presides over the conquest of Britain. And so this little boy gets given the name of Britannicus and Messalina's role in this, you know, crucial. And so she has basically made herself fundamental, not just to the status of Claudius's regime as it exists

in the present, but its prospects in the future. Basically, it's kind of its perpetuation. And so it's unsurprising that she is portrayed in statues as the very model of a sober, respectable Roman matron. And she's praised as the absolute model of Roman womanhood. But Dominic, dear listeners, here's the question. Is she the model of Roman womanhood or is she an outrageous strumpet? Well, if you've seen or indeed read I, Claudius, you will remember that there is, I mean, it's one of the great scandals, not just in Roman history, but all history. When Claudius, you will remember that there is, I mean, it's one of the great scandals, not just in Roman history, but all history. When Claudius, he's at Ostia, isn't he? He's

looking around that splendid site that I was recommending to the listeners. And if the Ostia tourist board want to get in touch, I'd be very keen to hear from them. So he's looking around Ostia and somebody, a concubine of his, comes up to him and says, Messalino is carrying on behind your back and not just carrying on. She comes up to him and says, Messalina is carrying on behind your back and not just carrying on, she's up to all sorts, Tom. Yeah, well, she's having an affair with this very good looking young senator who's also very ambitious. And the story is that they're conspiring to replace Claudius's emperor. And in fact, that Messalina has married this guy and she's the great grand niece of Augustus

and she's the mother of Britannicus. So this is potentially, you know, if it's true, very, very dangerous for Claudius. And the measure of his alarm is that he goes speeding back to Rome and he doesn't go to the Palatine, but he goes to the Praetorian camp because he's got to, clearly he's worried, you know, he needs to make sure that that's secure because only if that's secure can he then take measures to deal with this threat. And his worry must have been that, you know, Messalina and her toy boy have might've suborned the Praetorians. I mean, in the event they haven't, which perhaps suggests that the story has been slightly overblown, but we'll come to that in a minute. But anyway, Claudius is in a position to send the praetorians out and suppress the coup, which they do. So, um, all the various conspirators

are arrested and executed. Messalina has vanished. It turns out that she's gone to, uh, find, to find her mother, which is, you know, in her moment of crisis, she wants mummy and they are kind of closeted together in one of their kind of beautiful gardens that all the aristocracy in Rome have. And she's cornered there run through by the Praetorians and dumped at the feet of her mother. And that is the end of Messalina. And so the question is, well, what is going on here? Now, I think it's evident from contemporaneous sources that Meselina is a very proficient player in power politics, that she's very ruthless in getting rid of potential rivals or anyone who seems to threaten her mean, maybe she's been cheating on Claudius, can't

be sure. But you know, was she really conspiring against him? Yeah, maybe people have, there's been a bit of an internal power struggle we don't, that we can't really glimpse and that maybe the bureaucrats, the freed men have, you know, turned against her. Is that possible? Definitely. That concubine who goes to see Claudius at Ostia, she is prompted by one of Claudius's most powerful freedmen and they are lurking in the background of this whole episode. So it is, I think, likelier that Messalina is destroyed in a kind of faction fight between her supporters and kind of over mighty freedmen

than that she really was kind of getting up to kind of all kinds of sexual shenanigans. So like the last days of Boris Johnson, where there was rival briefing between his wife Carrie and some of his aides, remember? I mean, that kind of... I mean, I think from the point of view of Roman history, this is a key moment because, you know, this is a huge event. There are clearly all kinds of political interests at stake, but we just don't know what the truth is. And it points to the way in which rivalries that for centuries and centuries have been played out on the floor of the Senate house are now being conducted in side rooms

and passageways and bedrooms in the Palatine. And it means that certainty is impossible. And the lack of certainty in turn breeds scandalous gossip. And that's what explains these incredibly lurid stories. Again, I, Claudius has great fun with these that she has been, you know, you describe it in your notes as an all day sexathon with Rome's top courtesan. Yes. So Rome's most experienced and seasoned whore and they go head to head, it is said as it were. Right. And Messalina wins. And that obviously didn't happen. No, it obviously didn't happen. And also what obviously didn't happen is what Juvenal claims in his poems, he's a satirist writing kind of maybe half a century or so

after Messalina's death. And he describes her as kind of nostalgia de la boo, uh, going off and working incognita in a low rent brothel. And juvenile says that he, you know, she gilds her nipples and, uh, wears a blonde wig over her hair and kind of lies on this dirty, dirty room where plebeians come and have their way with her. And this is clearly not true, but it suggests the kind of titillation that these faction fights in the Palatine are now capable of generating. And of course, it's very bad for Messalina's posthumous reputation, but it's also terrible for Claudius' posthumous reputation. And in fact, his reputation when he's still alive, because it leaves him with a double problem. It leaves him looking kind of weak, cook-holded, deluded, and that plays into all the stories

that are being told about him as the plaything of his freedmen. But it's also deprived him of a kind of crucial buttress upholding his regime because he no longer has a marital link to the bloodline of Augustus, And he clearly feels that this is so important that he is prepared to offend some of the most sacred laws of Rome to deal with the problem, because there is a suitable candidate on hand. There is a woman who, you know, she's not just a great granny, she's a great granddaughter of Augustus. And this is one of the two surviving sisters of Caligula, the pair of them people may remember had been exiled to Prison Island by their brother, and when Claudius came to power he'd allowed them to return, and he'd

become very close to one of them, a woman called Agrippina, so like her mother, confusingly, so she's called Agrippina the Younger by historians. And she's very beautiful, very smart. Claudia thinks she's great, but I think unless his need had been what it was, he would not have passed a law revoking the taboo against an uncle marrying his niece. And he says, no, this is absolutely legitimate. And he goes niece and he says no this is absolutely legitimate and he goes ahead and he marries Agrippina and Suetonius says as he was getting ready to marry Agrippina in defiance of all morality he kept describing her in every speech he gave as his daughter his ward born and raised

in his loving embrace so it's very creepy but more than that it's evidence of his desperation. Still, even though he's now about a decade into his reign, the sense of insecurity, the anxiety that he's not a real Caesar and he needs a wife who will make him feel a real Caesar. Just to give people a sense of it, he is 59, she is 34. So a 25 year, exactly 25 year age gap. And she already has a son of her own who is much older than Britannicus, right? Yeah, four or five years older, which when you're 12, as Agrippina's son is, I mean, that's quite an age gap. And this is a young lad called Lucius Domitius Ahenobarbus after

his father. And he of course has two advantages over Britannicus. So one of them, we've just mentioned the fact that he's older and you know, when you're when you're in your teens, being four or five years older is a considerable advantage. And the other thing of course is that he's a direct descendant of Augustus. And there's a third advantage, which is that Agrippina is really, really ambitious to see him rather than Britannicus on the throne. And she presses Claudius to adopt this young lad. And sure enough, on the 25th of February 50, so very shortly after

his marriage to Agrippina, Claudius adopts the young Lucius Domitius Ahenobarbus and the boy formally becomes Claudius' eldest son and as a marker of this he takes on a new name and this new name is Nero Claudius Caesar or as we know him Nero. Yeah, so this isn't going to end well. I mean, to be fair to Agrippina, she might well be thinking if I don't do this, one day Brassanicus will become emperor and he'll probably kill my son because my son will be a rival claimant. I think that's exactly what she thinks. And I think that that even if the name of Nero didn't cast the shadow that it does, I think just listening to that setup, you know, it

has the quality of a kind of folk tale. You can see it's kind of Cinderella story, the befuddled father obsessing over a new wife, the child who gets abandoned, all these kind of elements are there. Sure enough, on 13th October, 54, so Claudius has been power by this point, just under 14 years, an announcement is released from the Palatine to the Roman people. And this announcement says that Claudius is dead. And shortly afterwards, Nero, who by this point is 16 years old, he comes out from the Palatine, he's hailed by a Praetorian escort as Caesar, he's placed in a litter and as Claudius had been some 14 years previously, he is taken

to the Praetorian camp. So Agrippina and Nero likewise have recognized that this is the key to seizing power of the capital. Within a year, Britannicus is dead, supposedly of a seizure, but of course everyone assumes that Nero has had him poisoned. Agrippina herself dies in 59, she is definitely murdered by Nero, I mean Nero makes no bones about that. And Nero himself of course dies in 68, as we heard in the details of how he died, we heard in the very opening reading of this series and with him dies Augustus's bloodline. That's it. There are no more heirs of Augustus. Let's go back to Claudius for a second. He died in October 54. So that's what four years

after he'd adopted Nero as his heir. And it's always thought, isn't it? Thanks largely, probably to Suetonius and also to I. Claudiusius that he was poisoned by Agrippina and Nero with mushrooms. Suetonius says he was poisoned with a dish of mushrooms. Do you think that's true? Well, so I think when Suetonius is the first to report something, that's when you need to be on your guard. That's suspicious.

Suetonius is not the first to report that Claudius was murdered by with a dish of poison mushrooms. So Pliny the Elder mentions it. But I mean, having said that, we don't know. I mean, maybe he dies of natural causes. I mean, he'd been sickly all his life. He's had a good innings, you know, he's 63 when he finally pops his clogs. And there's, Jezara Osgood, who's written a brilliant book on Claudius Caesar. In that, he points out that there had been a lot of plague in Rome at the time. He points to evidence from Tacitus of people, large number of high ranking people who died. So that suggests that there's quite a lot of sickness around. And the honest truth is, is that we can't

know. And I guess that, I mean, you would say as a historian who has, you know, I mean, think of all the episodes we did on 1968 or Kennedy or whatever. I mean, it's so much material that this is a cause of frustration. But I think it's also, it's, it breeds what to me is part of the fascination of this period and of Suetonius' biographies, which is the way that recorded fact and myth kind of blur into one another. And sometimes you can distinguish the lineaments of history and other times you see the lineaments of mythology. And trying to make sense of that, for for me is what makes this whole story so fascinating. You know, we talked about it, this is the ultimate dynastic story. It's why I, Claudius,

you know, as a novel, but even more as a TV drama kind of lies at the head of all these great dynastic epics that we've had on TV over the past decades. And the fact that Suetonius' account has this kind of mythic folkloric quality, as well as kind of quoting letters and, you know, citing laws and things, I think is a crucial part of that. No, I agree. I agree completely. But actually, where I'd slightly probably disagree with you

is I don't necessarily think this is actually as different from modern history as you would think, because modern history, too, is freighted with all kinds of assumptions, folk myths, urban myths, and actually teasing out what really happened is the impossible goal for any historian of any period. I was just thinking about the, you know, when I was thinking about the death of Claudius and, you know, was he murdered? Was he not? And then of course thinking about that series we did on Kennedy and kind of yearning for the equivalent of a Warren report or something, you know, all the kind of the whole range

of pieces of evidence that you could bring to bear and thinking how frustrating it is we don't have that. But of course, Kennedy is a myth, isn't he? Right. And also, which wouldn't solve the, you know, wouldn't end the conversation. I mean, because these things don't. So if people want to make up their own minds, what they should do is to buy Tom's new translation of Suetonius' book, The Lives of the Caesars, which is available now from all good bookshops with Penguin Classics. Tom, a great translation, a great series, I have to say. A Tour de Force, I think, is the approved Restless History terminology.

So that was absolutely tremendous. And by the way, the book is brilliant. So people should absolutely go and buy the book. And we will be back next week with something very different, another of history's great monsters, actually, and another story in which it's actually quite difficult to get at, as it were, the truth of what really happened because there are so many different accounts. And that is the story of King Leopold and the Belgian Congo. So we will be telling that story next week. The Heart of Darkness indeed.

Okay, on that bombshell, Goodbye. Bye-bye.