The Rest Is History - 567. The Great Northern War: Murder in Moscow (Part 4)

Episode Date: May 21, 2025

What were the consequences of Peter the Great’s mighty victory over Sweden at the Battle of Poltova in 1707? How great was the impact of his reign upon Russia overall, and was he responsible for turning it into one of Europe’s greatest powers? What occurred during the later years of his life? And, what is the story behind his bloody, terrible and tragic treatment of his son, Alexis…? Join Dominic and Tom for the mighty conclusion of their series on one of history’s most remarkable characters: Peter the Great. The ramifications of his reign for Russia, his ghastly dealings with his own family, and the end of his colourful life. The Rest Is History Club: Become a member for exclusive bonus content, early access to full series and live show tickets, ad-free listening, our exclusive newsletter, discount book prices on titles mentioned on the pod, and our members’ chatroom on Discord. Just head to therestishistory.com to sign up, or start a free trial today on Apple Podcasts: apple.co/therestishistory. For more Goalhanger Podcasts, head to www.goalhanger.com _______ Twitter: @TheRestHistory @holland_tom @dcsandbrook Producer: Theo Young-Smith Assistant Producer: Tabby Syrett + Aaliyah Akude Executive Producers: Jack Davenport + Tony Pastor Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Thank you for listening to The Rest is History. For weekly bonus episodes, ad-free listening, early access to series, and membership of our much-loved chat community, go to therestishistory.com and join the club. That is, therestishistory.com. Whoa! Is that the new Kia Sportage? Yeah, I just got it. I love the updated styling and the distinctive LED lighting. And check this out. No key needed with digital key on my phone. Oh.

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Instacart has all your groceries covered this summer. So download the app and get delivery in as fast as 60 minutes. Plus, enjoy $0 delivery fees on your first three orders. Service fees exclusions and terms apply. Instacart, groceries that over-deliver. ["The Star-Spangled Banner"] Dinner was prepared in a spacious hall. Several small tables were placed in the middle of the hall for the newly married couple and the rest of the dwarfs, who were all splendidly dressed after the German fashion. After dinner, the dwarfs began to dance after the Russian way, which lasted

till eleven at night. It is easy to imagine how much the Tsar and the rest of the company were delighted at the comical capers, strange grimaces, and odd postures of that medley of pygmies, most of whom were so short that their size alone had people in fits of laughter. One had a high hunch on his back and very short legs, another was remarkable by a monstrous big belly. A third came waddling along on a little pair of crooked legs like a badger. A fourth had head of prodigious size. Some had

wry mouths and long ears, little pig eyes and chubby cheeks, and there were many more such comical figures. When these diversions were ended, the newly married couple were carried to the sars house and bedded in his own bed chamber. So that was Friedrich Christian Weber, who was the ambassador of Hanover, the German state to the court of Peter the Great. And he is struggling to cope, I guess, Dominic with the fondness for grotesquery that has been a marker of Peter's court right from the very beginning. And Weber there is describing a wedding feast that was held in St. Petersburg in November 1710, where the couple and all the attendees were dwarves. And And all the attendees were dwarfs.

And it's very expressive of Peter's kind of dark sense of humor. His fondness for, I suppose, making a show of people who aren't of normal size. I mean, he's obsessed by giants as well as dwarfs, isn't he? He is. And there are German princes who are obsessed by giants, for instance. But Peter's obsession with that kind of grotesquery seems exceptional even by the standards of the time. I think that's right, Tom, and we'll be unpacking that a little bit in the first half of today's episode.

So people who've been with us since the very beginning of this Peter the Great epic will know that we've had lots of war, lots of diplomacy and battles. We had the Great Northern War, we had Charles XII's rise and fall. We had the Battle of Poltava and Russia's ascent to join the ranks of the great powers. And in this final episode, we'll look at the last years of Peter's life and above all, the terrible and tragic story of what happens to his son, Alexis, and there will, yes, be some misconduct with dwarves to come. But the reason we started with that guy, Friedrich Christian Weber, and his reaction to the

wedding feast is because he's a nice guide to what St. Petersburg, what Russia would have felt like to a visitor from the West. And he hadn't actually seen that wedding, had he? No. So clearly it is something that is circulating among ambassadors in St. Petersburg as an example of the kind of the madness of the SARS court. Exactly, because that wedding was at the end of 1710 and four years later when he arrived in 1714, the diplomatic corps are still talking about it as a sign of how weird and outlandish

and extravagant Peter's court is. So when he actually arrived Weber in St. Petersburg, he finds it still a building site. So we talked in a previous episode about how the land was captured from the Swedes in 1703. Peter began work on the fortress and they had these gigantic teams of conscript laborers who were all being carried off by scurvy or malaria and whatnot. What did you call it Thomas? City built on bones. Yeah, that's the famous description of it. Yeah,

but by the 1710s, so moving forward 10 years or so, Peter's sort of, if you went into his papers, they are full of kind of specs and plans for churches and palaces and offices and canals and things. By 1712, he's effectively moved the capital to St Petersburg, even though it's not finished. The census claims there are tens of thousands of buildings. I think that might be a bit exaggerated, but by 1716 or so, he's got an Italian guy called Domenico Trezzino, who's building up a grid of canals. And he's got a guy called a Frenchman called Jean Baptiste Alexandre LeBlanc, who draws up a street network on a very enlightenment, rationalist ordered plan.

Because there are a network of canals. And so St. Petersburg is one of the many cities that have been described as the Venice of the north, I think much more reasonably than say, Birmingham, with no disrespect to my father's native city. Yeah. But the setting of St. Petersburg, which when it is begun, seems mad. It's a marsh, it's a bog, there are kind of vast waters. Once Peter has succeeded in imposing his order on it, raised up on the bones of all the laborers, but this sense of a kind of Augustan order bones of all the laborers, but this sense of a kind of Augustan order emerging amid what had been bogs.

The result is one of the most spectacular cityscapes of all time. I mean, St. Petersburg is a stunningly beautiful city in large part because of the combination of these 18th century buildings with the vastness of the river. Yeah. I mean, it's an amazing place to visit. Yeah. I agree with you completely. It is a remarkable place.

There's no, we're quite like him in the world. And yet the interesting thing is it's meant to be the window on the West. It's meant to be a model of European modernity of rationalism. You know, it's sort of anticipating so many of the themes of the enlightenment. And yet this guy, Weber, the guy who you began with that reading, what struck him when he arrived in St. Petersburg was not how European it was. It was actually how non-European. So at the very first public function he went to, he commented on what he called the foul language and the rudeness of the guards. And he was

really struck by the fact that he was dressed quite modestly. He realized that everybody else was dressed in what he called trimmed with gold and silver. In other words, what Russians wanted, what they were rewarded and valued was not modesty and humility but bling basically. So when he turns up the guards refused to accept that he's an ambassador don't they? And he says well well, I'm from Hanover. And they say, I've never heard of it. Yes. They're ostentatiously rude to him.

Yeah. And that combination of, um, suspicion of the West, but also the obsession with extravagance and bling as a marker of status, I mean, that would be very familiar to anybody who's visited Russia since the 1990s. I mean, that's effectively the vibe in, in Moscow or St. Petersburg now also a constant of Russian history is the drinking. So Weber couldn't believe how much people drank. He said, I drank a dozen glasses of Hungarian wine at this function. And then federal Romanovsky, the mock czar came up and said to him, I want

you to drink a full port of brandy. What's Romanovsky has a history of getting a bear to strip you. If you don't drink all this. Yeah. And Weber said, you know, I lost my senses, although I had the comfort to observe that the rest of the guests lying asleep on the floor were in no condition to make reflections at my little skill in drinking. Which kind of gives you a sense of exactly what is expected of you.

If you turn up as a diplomat, you basically have to put on gold robes and just start drinking brandy. A couple of other things that caught his eye, he noticed that people were wearing the latest fashions, so French-hooped petticoats, he said, so that a visitor might think he was in London or Paris. So Peter has won that battle with the elite to get them to wear the latest Western fashions. But it's interesting he name checks petticoats because the women, as we said, are much more enthusiastic about Western fashions than the men tend to be, perhaps because men are required

to bear stockinged calves and it's chillier, isn't it, in the dead of winter? Yeah, I guess that's probably true. But what also really strikes him, you know, this is not an ordinary European court. His description is a little bit like a man who's gone to a kind of a gathering of the intergalactic federation or something. And there are kind of aliens there because he's really astonished by the sight of Uzbeks or Kalmyks with turbans and long robes, their envoys from the courts further east or people bringing gifts of Chinese silk and Persian cloth. In other words, his description is a perfect example of that common

cliche of Russia as the crossroads of kind of Europe and Asia, East and West. But also as a kind of showcase for exoticism. Yes. And this is an age when Europeans in the West are increasingly alert to the exotic nature of the Orient, and so it's amazing for them to find it on the shores of the Baltic. Exactly. And this, so the fascination with exoticism, this is kind of where the dwarves come in. Now dwarves are part of the formula of any European court in the late 17th, early 18th

century. So most European monarchs will have dwarves on hand. If you think of Diego Bellasquez's great painting Las Meninas, painted about 50 years before this, obviously that's all about the dwarves at the Spanish court. And Dominic, also just to reiterate that it is also about giants. The king of Prussia with his regiments of giants. And Peter has a giant, doesn't he? A Frenchman called Nicolas Bourgeois, who's seven foot two inches, who he'd picked up in Calais. And he's so keen

on this, he marries Bourgeois to a Finnish giantess that he's found in the hope that they will breed a race of giants. But unfortunately, they don't have children. There is something unusual about Peter. He has an absolute fixation on this. He would go to church with an escort of dwarves. He always had dwarf acrobats and jesters on hand. And he was very keen on having dwarfs hiding inside pies

Yes, of course. They're always kind of bursting out of pies, aren't they? So we were talking about this old family yesterday You presumably can't bake the pie with the dwarf already inside But how do you then insert the dwarf into the pie without making a hole in the crust you make the the content of the pie? Yeah on a huge scale and a pie dish Vast pie dish. Yeah. And then you have raised pastry. So the dwarf crouches down and you raise the pastry over the dwarf and then he bursts out. But surely the pie is hot or these cold pies is more like a quiche.

Yes, a quiche, I guess. Okay. Theo says you put the top on last. So he agrees with you. Yeah. Well, anyway, I think there's a slight political meaning to this though. All his life, Peter has liked undermining the seriousness and piety of Orthodox Moscow, going right back to the days with the

revolt of the Streltsy and all that stuff. And that dwarf wedding that we opened with came two days after his niece Anne had married the Duke of Courland. And I think the dwarf wedding was clearly a self-conscious parody of the wedding that had happened two days earlier. And apparently Peter was sobbing with laughter throughout the dwarf wedding was clearly a self-conscious parody of the wedding that had happened two days earlier. And apparently Peter was sobbing with laughter throughout this dwarf wedding. He has a sort of, I don't know whether it's unconscious, whether he's reflective about it, but he has a kind of fascination with mimicking the rituals of Russian kind of elite

life. He's always engaged in this kind of game of parody and play acting. And also subverting his own preeminence as a symbol of Russia with all that kind of stuff of dressing up as a common soldier and marching in his own triumphs. Yeah, exactly. I mean, maybe there's an argument that some of the Roman emperors, like the Julio-Claudians, like Caligula or Nero, they were testing taboos all the time, aren't they? That's part of their so-called depravity, is that they're kicking against the conventions of Roman life.

But there's something more obviously ludicrous and parodic about what Peter is doing, I think. It's very strange. It enshrines a sense of the grotesque at the absolute heart of his court. Well, here's a really good example. So this vaper was on Hanse. It was in January 1715. Well, here's a really good example. So this Weber was on fantasy. In January 1715, his old tutor, his childhood tutor, who was called Nikita Zotov, he'd made the mock pope of the all drunken synod, as he called it.

Zotov was 84 and he got married to a 34 year old woman. And to give you a flavor, this is how Weber described the marriage ceremony. The four persons appointed to invite the guests were the greatest stammerers that could be found in all Russia. Old decrepit men who were not able to walk or stand had been picked out to serve for bridesmen, stewards and waiters. There were four running footmen, the most unwieldy fellows, who had been troubled with gout most of their lifetime and were so fat and bulky that they needed others to lead

them. The moxar was brought into this ceremony in a float carried by bears. I was wondering if bears would appear. Of course. Because that's been another running theme of the series. The priest, Peter organized the priest, he said I'll sort this out and they found a man who was a hundred years old and had lost his eyesight and his memory. The whole thing just seems like a tremendous lark and a spoof. And yet it is

a real wedding. And it's an example, I think, for us of how hard it is to get into the mindset of Peter's world. I mean, it does feel like a like if you were dropped in there through a time machine, you would find it very hard to work out exactly what's going on. And actually, maybe people themselves find it hard to work out. I think Weber does, doesn't he? Yeah, absolutely. Now, this makes it sound like it's all just sort of madness and bellows and bears and stuff. But obviously there is a seriousness to Peter.

So there's a brilliant book by Lindsay Hughes, which is all about Peter the Great and his times where she talks a lot about Peter's reforms if you're interested in that. Because of the Great Northern War, that turbocharged his efforts to modernize Russia. It's not quite a total war, but it's not far off. So he had to put loads of money into new factories and textiles and iron and copper works and new canals to basically mobilize Russia's natural resources and its manpower for the war. He has a new tax system, a bit like a poll tax called the sole tax. He has a new Senate to replace the council of boyars. He has a system of new government ministries, which are called colleges, which are modeled ironically on the colleges system in Sweden.

And the president's always Russian, but he brings in foreign vice presidents to run this to basically run the machinery of government. And above all, I think there's a general ethos that had not really been the case before in Russia. It's not quite a meritocracy, but it's approaching that and it's symbolized by something called the table of ranks. So there are three ladders, one military, one civilian and one for the court with loads of rungs.

And you basically move up this and this is an obsession in all Russian literature, isn't it? Yeah. So Dostoevsky, so crime and punishment, for instance, which is set in St. Petersburg. Yeah. Absolute obsession with getting ranks and the humiliation of not attaining the rank that you're aspiring to. Exactly.

So if you read any story by Chekhov or something, people are always like, what rank are you? Can I move up and can I move down? All of this stuff. It's not a complete meritocracy, of course, and it's not a complete temple to enlightenment values. Russia is still very corrupt and very authoritarian. The classic example of this is Peter's great drinking pal, Alexander Menshikov, who was at Poltava, who was the guy who'd introduced him to his wife,

Catherine. Menshikov is, you know, he would fit right into Putin's Russia. He's incredibly corrupt. He's incredibly corrupt. He's incredibly ambitious. He's sort of accumulating palaces and jewels and bling. He's always getting government contracts and stealing government money. And Peter always forgives him. Peter was furious about all this corruption in the abstract.

And at one point he dictated an order one day to his chamberlain Pavel Yagushinsky, who was actually famously not corrupt. And Peter said, right, I want the death penalty for anyone in my government who so much as steals a piece of rope. And Yagushinsky said to him, does your majesty wish to live alone in his empire with no subjects, because we all steal. Some take a little, some take a great deal, but all of us take something. Do you think that Peter's fascination with parody and grotesquerie perhaps is a way of dealing with the tension between the aspiration of his ideals and the evident fact that they can't entirely be realized. So he spends some of his time kind of drawing up plans and playing the Enlightened Death

Spot and all that kind of thing. And the other time he kind of wallows in drunkenness and dwarf weddings and bears and all that kind of stuff. So it's kind of like the ego in the id to go all Freudian. I think so. You know, Peter is a very serious person. He has great ambitions for Russia. But of course, his ambitions are colliding with reality, I guess. He needs to let off steam, perhaps. He is a very serious person. He has great ambitions for Russia, but of course his ambitions are colliding with reality,

I guess. He needs to let off steam, perhaps. He needs to let off steam. We're not unfamiliar with it now, of course, that there are politicians whose appeal is partly based on making fun of the established rituals. You know, they're sort of having their cake and eating it. And actually two really good examples of that are Boris Johnson and Donald Trump. They're sometimes self mocking.

They sometimes make fun of the conventions and the expectations that other politicians have adhered to. But I suppose the difference is that they are democratic politicians who have to appeal to an electorate to get into power. Peter doesn't need to worry about any of that. No, he can do what he likes, can't he? I mean, that's the thing. And he just thinks, you know, when he went on his grand tour, he didn't want to be constrained by protocol, which is why he went in disguise. And I think there is a kind of restlessness

to him. You can't imagine Peter knowing what we do with him, just knuckling down and obeying the rules and conventions. He has a kind of, is it a way of coping with the terrible traumas of his first 10 years or so? But also for his courtiers. I mean, it must be tricky because you're being encouraged to mock the conventions that uphold life in the palace. But if you go too far, Peter's not going to like that at all.

Yeah. Peter will behead you personally and whip you. Yeah. I mean, it's an absolute tightrope. It is. So an interesting question about Peter is how much he's an enlightened despot. You know, it's a classic kind of a level question. And I think there are lots of ways in which he does anticipate them.

So you could see him as part of a tradition that reaches its kind of most obvious flowering of people like Frederick the great and Joseph the second of Austria, the suspicion of organized religion, the dislike of obscurantism, fascination with science and geography, enthusiasm for kind of top-down modernization and whatnot. If you sort of stretch the definition of enlightened despotism, you can see him as the start of a line that leads all the way to Napoleon, I would say. There is a comparison to be made between Peter and Napoleon, an autocrat, a modernizing autocrat. I mean, Napoleon obviously isn't messing around with dwarves and pies and bears and whatnot

in the same way. Well, no, he's not. And so that's why I think Peter is kind of a little bit sui generis. I mean, clearly there is a rationalist element to him. He's a great one for a plan and all of that. But at the same time, he's clearly very interested in the darkness that is the other side of, of reason. Yes.

There's a lot of darkness to come in this episode when we get to his son. The one thing he does definitely have in common with Napoleon though, is he's a genuine celebrity, a continental celebrity. There's a wonderful description of him. He made a second tour of Western Europe in 1716, 17, when the war was largely won and he went to France this time. He stayed at the Louvre, he visited Louis XV at the Tuileries. Louis XV then was only a little boy, seven years old, and Peter made a great fuss of him, hugging

him and kissing him. And there were wonderful sort of descriptions of him going to meet scientists and going to talk to Catholic theologians. He's drinking a lot. There's a wonderful description by the Duke of Saint-Simon, the great memoirist of 18th century France. You know, he's always asking questions about everything from the tax system to the police, just like he was, you know, almost 20 years earlier when he went to Amsterdam and London. Yeah.

We've mentioned a few times Robert K. Mass's book, which is about what? 20,000 pages long or something. Just enormous biography. And he gives some lovely sort of portraits of Peter and his prime. And you can see why people found him such a, an infectious character. He would get up at four o'clock in the morning and he's carries a notebook and he's always writing stuff down.

He loves playing chess. He loves messing around with his lathe. He likes sailing all of this. He's got some very peculiar quirks. So he has messing around with his lathe, he likes sailing, all of this. He's got some very peculiar quirks. He has an obsession with cockroaches. Whenever he goes to stay in a room, it has to be fully checked and swept for cockroaches. And of course, the thing that a lot of people will know about Peter the Great, because we've referred to it in previous episodes of The Rest is History about other things, is this

whole thing about curiosities. You mentioned about the giants. So in 1718, he sent out a demand he said i would like people to send me a quote freaks and monsters that was his words. Lindsey hughes and her book says this produce and i quote a three legged baby a two headed baby a baby with its eyes under its nose and it is below its neck. Siamese twins joined at the chest, a baby with a fish's tail, two dogs born to a 60 year old virgin. I think that's not plausible, frankly. And a baby with two heads, four arms and three legs. And then she says, but the response was not as good as Peter hoped.

What was he after? That sounds a pretty good haul to me. And he would exhibit these in his Kunstkamera, his cabinets of curiosities. Which is still there. Yeah. I think it was St. Petersburg's first museum to open up. It's kind of on the opposite side of the river from the Hermitage and from that massive equestrian statue of Peter on the far side.

And it's an incredible place to visit. It goes back to that first visit to Amsterdam where he was fascinated by the ability of Dutch scientists to preserve human flesh within bottles. And those bottles are still there and you can see all these kind of deformed children, babies, whatever, in the bottles. And also there's the skeleton of his giant, Nicolas Bourgeois. Oh, yeah, of course. It's there and it's got his heart his giant Nicola bourgeois. Oh yeah, of course. It's there and it's got his heart and the heart is absolutely huge.

It was one of the most memorable things I remember from visiting St Petersburg. I mean this sort of stuff is quite unsettling I think. Very unsettling. And actually there is a very very unsettling and dark side to Peter's character. Peter is not just hot tempered, he is unbelievably violent. So you go in and you report the taxes from such and such a province are not great this year and he will beat you with a stick or something. He would often at feasts, when the doors are leaping out of pies and there's great japs,

he will punch his friends in the face if they say the wrong thing. There's occasions where he would draw his sword and attack them and have to be physically restrained. It's sort of like Alexander the Great and Cletus the Black. Which must make him an alarming father. I would say he's one of the worst fathers you could wish to have actually. And this brings us to the meat of this story, which is such a sad, sad business. So his son, Alexei or Alexis, as he's usually called, was born in February 1690 when Peter was only 18 years old

and he was married to Eudokia. If you remember Eudokia, he was very conservative. The boring one. Yes. Who he packed off to a nunnery. So he was forced off to a nunnery when Alexis was eight. So Alexis lost his mother when he was eight and he had a succession of German tutors and he studied all the things that you would expect, maths and foreign

languages, he's taught how to ride and to fence and whatnot. This is so tragic because all the reports of him as a young boy are that he's very bright, studious, eager to please all of this. Do you think that he thinks that he is associated by Peter with his mother? Yes, undoubtedly. Peter despised his wife Eudokia and I think as a young man was just simply not interested in Alexis at all. And Alexis always had the taint, I think, of his mother and indeed grows up and ends

up living up to that that doesn't he. Yeah. So he's very conscious of the fact that his father kind of despises him for being a mummy's boy. I think so. I think so. And I think what's a terrible sign is that Peter seems to have given his pal, Alexander Menshikov, the very blingy hard drinking friend of his special responsibility for Alexis and says,

Oh, why don't you take my son under your wing? And there are stories of Menshikov punching Alexis or dragging him by his hair along the floor in front of Peter. Bloody good laugh. Make a man of him. Making a man of him. When the war breaks out, Peter would sometimes summon him to sort of set peace moments like the storming of Narva.

But then he would just forget about him for long stretches, like months or years at a time. So that leaves Alexis in Moscow and unlike his father, he loves Moscow. So he loves all the icons, the chanting and the candles and all of that. He does. He's a sort of dreamy teenager and he's very close to his mother's family and they're more conservative and he falls in with lots of priests and stuff. And I think they encourage this because they see him a champion of the old ways and orthodoxy and one day he will

succeed and they will be able to turn the clock back on all Peter's reforms. And so that's not boosting his profile with Peter is it? No not at all but also temperamentally they're so different. Peter as we've discussed is so physical, he's so energetic, he's so self-confident and gregarious. And not bookish. His education had been with the lathe. Exactly. And Alexis is very bookish and he's very anxious and melancholy.

He's clearly terrified of his father. So when Peter would summon him, he would often make himself ill by necking medicine, you know, to try to get out of meeting him. Like getting out of PE. Exactly. And there's a brilliant example of this. He went off to study in Dresden and Peter sent him a message and said, I look forward to seeing your geometrical drawings. You can draw me a fort.

Classic Peter. And Alexis was so terrified that he wouldn't be able to do it, that he tried to shoot himself in the hand, but he missed. He was shaking so much. He ended up really badly burning himself with the sort of the pistol. Anyway, in 1710, so when Alexis was turning 20, Peter arranged for him to marry a German princess called Charlotte of Wolfenbüttel.

And at first everything seemed fine. Alexis said, well, she's quite nice. Yeah, we get on all right. They got married in Saxony, but they didn't see each other much for the first couple of years. They married in 1711. They sort of see each other off and on. And then by 1713, when they're reunited in St. Petersburg, Alexis has started drinking a lot. And he starts to be very rude to her and to abuse her in front of the servants. And he says, I wish I'd never married you. I actually don't like you at all, but they are still sleeping together

because in early 1714, she's heavily pregnant with their daughter. And Alexis walks out of the house with the words, goodbye. I'm going to Carlsbad, Sparta. And he goes off to Carlsbad and he doesn't write to her for the next six months. So actually this is kind of behavior like Peter's isn't it? Ironically to his mum. Exactly. And she writes to him, oh I've had a daughter blah blah blah.

And he returns her letters unread. Then in December 1714 he returns to Charlotte but things are worse than ever. He's now drinking loads of brandy a day. He's also got this girl, this Finnish girl who was a prisoner of war from the Great Northern War, who he met at a friend's house. This girl is called Afrosenia. And he moves Afrosenia, she's a teenager, he moves her into a wing of his house and he spends all his time with Afrosenia. Charlotte, who's living in the other bit of the house, he doesn't talk to her at all. She has a terrible leak in her bedroom and water is pouring in and he won't even pay to repair the leak and yet once a week he was still pad along the corridors to charlotte's room as robert came as he puts it coming grimly to make love in hopes of fathering a son to secure his own successions throne.

Charlotte is very miserable she She's had a terrible time. She gives birth to a second child in 1715 who's going to end up becoming Peter the second, but nine days later she dies of postpartum fever. That's the end of her tragic story. Now on the day of her funeral, Peter hands Alexis a letter and he says, I mean, imagine you get this letter from your dad. It says, look at me. I'm absolutely brilliant.

I've done all these things for Russia. I'm a tremendous man. You, you know, you're an absolute shower of a man. You're a terrible person. And it's not because of your treatment. He doesn't even mention Alexis treatment of his wife, who's dead. You have no inclination to learn war. You don't apply yourself to it.

Again, Peter's obsession with the fate of Constantinople. We don't want to follow the Greeks with whom we are united by the same profession of faith. Idleness and repose weaken them and brought them to that slavery to which they are now so long since reduced. And if you don't mend your ways, says Peter, I will deprive you of the succession as one may cut off a useless member. So that must have helped him with his lack of self-confidence. Yeah, with his mental health. Well, Alexis goes straight to his friends and says, what do you think about this?

And they unanimously say to him, do you know what? You should just walk away. You are not suited to be the Tsar. Tell your father you just don't want it. So Alexis writes back to Peter and he says, I don't want it. The strength of my mind and of my body is much decayed by sicknesses. I do not think myself fit for government.

Please, exclude me from the succession. Just let me go in peace to be a private citizen. Peter is livid. A month later, he's been brooding for a month and then he writes back to Alexis and he says, you're going to throw away everything I've done for Russia. I cannot resolve to let you live on according to your free will like an amphibious creature, neither fish nor flesh.

Change therefore your conduct and either strive to render yourself worthy of them succession or become a monk. And he says, when you get this letter, answer me straight away. If you fail to do it, I shall treat you as a criminal. God, no wonder he was drinking. So Alexis says, I will become a monk actually. Now you mentioned it. And Peter is shocked by this because Alexis has called his bluff. Well, because he gets surprised by a friend, doesn't he? That, you know, you can become a monk, but you can stop being a monk as well. Exactly. At any point, this is win-win. And Peter says, Oh, well, actually becoming a

monk is not easy for a young man. Think about it a little more. I will wait six more months. So six more months pass. Peter's Orphan Campaign in the West in Germany. Alexis is in St. Petersburg, holed up miserably with Afrosenia, mistress drinking like a fish drinking like a fish not like a amphibious creature. Do you like a fish. I know the twenty sixth of august seventeen sixteen peter writes to him from coban hagen he says i need your final answer. Monk or crown prince make your mind up and he waits waits and there's no reply and then he hears reports that Alexis has left St. Petersburg and he is coming west to Pomerania and he thinks well fine he's coming to tell me his answer

in person great I look forward to it and the weeks pass and Alexis there's nowhere to be seen and then comes not for the first time in this series bombshell news Alexis has got as far as Danzig Gdansk but nobody has seen him since and nobody knows where he is Tom he has vanished into thin air. Dominic, this is a stunning development, an incredible twist. And I think it is so shocking that we should take a break and draw our breath. And then we will come back for the final part of this epic series and find out what has happened to Alexis. Did you know that our Sunday Times bestselling book, The Rest is History Returns is now out in paperback. From finding out who British history's biggest lad was to tracing the admittedly hazy

ancient origins of Raiders of the Lost Ark, It's filled cover to cover with more curious historical moments than you can crack a lasso at. Plus puzzles and a pub quiz. The rest is history returns available now in all good bookshops. Hello, welcome back to The Rest Is History and Dominic, you left us on the edge of our seats. The Crown Prince of Russia has vanished. Where's he gone? Right. Tom, the date is the 10th of November, 1716, and we're in Vienna. And we're with a guy called Count Schoenborn, who's the Vice Chancellor of the Habsburg

Imperial Court. And he's just retired to bed, shortly after a day stuffing himself with schnitzel cake and listening to nice classical music or some such Austrian behavior. And a servant comes in and says, you know, my Lord, there's a, there's a man at the door. He says he's Grand Duke Alexis, son of Peter the Great. And Schoenborn kind of gets back out of bed and he starts putting his clothes back on and suddenly the door swings open and this man bursts in.

He's hysterical, he's sobbing, he's pacing the room like a madman. He is Alexis. He has fled Russia in terror for his life and arrived in Vienna. So this is great news for the Austrian Emperor. So the Austrian Emperor is called Charles VI and he's now in a very difficult position. Nightmare. What the hell am I going to do now? Do I house him?

Do I send him back to his father? What do I do? I mean, I can't think of many examples in history where something like this has happened. And he says, well, we'll just keep the whole thing top secret. And he sends Alexis to a remote castle in the northern Tyrol called Arenberg. And so for the next few months, Alexis is housed in this Austrian

castle in the strictest secrecy. He's traveled with four Russian servants. He's traveled with loads of books because we said he's very bookish and this girlfriend of his, Afrosenia, this Finnish girl who's disguised as a boy. I mean, it is very like a kind of 18th century melodrama on the stage, isn't it? Right. Mozart would make an opera out of this.

They love a girlfriend who's disguised as a page. Exactly. So he's treated very generously. He wants for nothing, but no one is allowed near the castle and the grounds are patrolled by Austrian bodyguards. Now Peter has gone absolutely ballistic that his son has vanished and he has sent Russian agents and diplomats across central Europe to search for him. And one of these men who's been told to look for him is the ambassador to Vienna, he's

a man called Veselovsky and he personally tries to retrace Alexis' steps. He goes up to Danzig and he asks questions, have you seen this man? And eventually he finds that a man who was calling himself Korkansky, clearly spoke with a heavy Russian accent, had stayed at various post houses on the road down south towards Austria. And Veselovsky enlists a Russian guard captain called Rumyantsov, who's a huge giant of a man, another giant, to look into this. And Rumyantsov manages to bribe a man in the Imperial Chancery in Vienna who says to him,

I think you should look in the Tyrol. Rumiantsov goes to the Tyrol and he asks around and he hears rumours of this stranger at Ehrenberg Castle. And he goes as close as he can to the castle and he catches a glimpse of somebody who looks suspiciously like it might be Alexis. The Russian ambassador armed with this news goes to see the Habsburg Emperor Charles and gives him a letter from Peter, a very polite letter not an ultimatum saying could you please send back my son and the Emperor sends a secretary to the castle to break this news to Alexis. Alexis bursts into floods of tears and says I will not go I will not go back to my father and so the Emperor says okay well I will not go. I will not go back to my father. So the emperor says, okay, well, I will move you in secret to the opposite end of my empire, which is Naples.

And so in this bonkers scene, Austrian imperial agents load Alexis and Afrosenia and their servants onto a coach and they send them off towards Naples. And Afrosenia is still disguised as a boy, right? Still disguised as a boy right? Still disguised as a boy but is pregnant. But is pregnant by Alexis exactly and what is worse they're meant to be traveling incognito but they're drinking like fish again on the coach generally drawing attention to themselves. Anyway they get to Naples in May 1717 and they are put up in the Castel Sant'Elmo which overlooks the city. By this point, Afrosinia is clearly very heavily pregnant. The months go by and actually they breathe a sigh of relief and they think, great, we've

got away, we've pulled this off. But in fact, they had been spotted on the ride south, of course, because they've drawn attention to themselves. This giant, Rumyantsov and his agents have been tracking them the whole time. And when they're certain that they're in Naples and they've got them, they send a message to Peter and they say, this is where they are. So Peter now sends another representative to Vienna. And this is his very best man.

This is a guy called Piotr Tolstoy, count Tolstoy from the great novel writing dynasty and Tolstoy is your dictionary definition of a wily old fox. Because he'd been Russia's first ambassador to Constantinople hadn't he? He had and he played it very well. He'd also when the Ottomans went to war he'd been locked up. Yes. There was no kind of Geneva Convention that stopped that happening. And he's also for people who've been listening to the rest of his history for a long time he is the guy who had procured the services of that man Hannibal. Yes, of course. The Cameroonian slave general of Peter the greater than the title of that episode

was. Of course. Yeah. So it was Tolstoy who had got him. Yes. He found him in the safe markets of Constantinople. Exactly. Well, Tolstoy went straight to the Habsburg Emperor, you know, and he said, look, as a sovereign and as a father, Peter really insists that you should give his son back. And the Emperor says, listen, I can't force him. Alexis is a grown man, but you have my permission to go to Naples and talk to him yourself. So Count Tolstoy goes down to Naples and on the 26th of September, 1717, Alexis is invited to the viceroys palace. And when he gets there there listeners who enjoy this

kind of thing it is like the moment in The Empire Strikes Back when Lando Calrissian betrays Han and Leia and co to Darth Vader because the door opens and Alexis sees to his horror that Count Tolstoy is there and Tolstoy has brought a letter from his father from Peter and Peter says to him, if you come back, I will pardon and I will love you better than ever. If you refuse, then I curse you forever and I will declare you a traitor and find a way to treat you as such. Meaning I will send men with Novichok or something to bump you off. This is the threat. Alexis is clearly terrified. He asks for time to make up his mind.

And then he decides, I can't do it. I just can't face my father. I don't want to go back to Russia. And Tolstoy now turns the knife. He says, well, actually, if you don't go, your father has decided to march on Italy at the head of an army to bring you back. But crucially Tolstoy bribes Afrosenia to persuade her lover to go back home. He is a wily old fox, isn't he?

He is a wily old fox and Afrosenia I don't think is overburdened with moral scruples. I think it's fair to say. So Alexis breaks down in tears and he says, all right, I'll go back on two conditions. One that I can live quietly in the country and two that I can live with Afrosenia because I love her so much and she's so important to me. And Peter says, yeah, fine, whatever, as long as you come. So off they go. North from Naples, they get to Venice and there Tolstoy persuades him to leave Afrosenia behind.

He says she's heavily pregnant. She doesn't want to be crossing the Alps. So they leave her behind. By January, 1718, they've reached Riga, of course now occupied by Russian troops. And Alexis is immediately kind of loaded into a carriage and sent to Tver, which is near Moscow, to await his father. And when Alexis' old friends hear that he's coming back to Russia, they are horrified. One of his friends, Prince Vasily Dolgoruky, said, what a mug Alexis is, he will have a coffin rather than a wedding.

So 3rd February 1718, all the bigwigs of Russia assembled in the great audience hall of the Kremlin. Clergy, noblemen, public officials, the place is surrounded by battalions of guardsmen. Peter comes in and he takes his place on the throne and then Alexis is escorted in by Count Tolstoy and he falls to his knees and begs his father for pardon. Peter denounces him and then he says, I will pardon you, but there is one condition which Peter hasn't actually mentioned till now. He says you must reveal the truth of your flight and the names of all your fellow conspirators. And so Peter is assuming that Alexis hasn't just been operating on his own, but is part of a much broader plot to perhaps overthrow Peter to destabilize his throne, whatever.

Exactly. So here I think we come to the nub of this story, which is a kind of a link between the very first episode we did, which is about the feud between Peter and Sophia and the Streltsy and that kind of paranoia and stuff. And which ended up in a violent kind of wave of torture, didn't he? When the Streltsy do their final rebellion and he's convinced that there's a conspiracy there that wasn't actually there. Exactly.

And now I think this, it looks back to that, but also so many of the themes of this anticipate frankly 20th century Russian history, show trials, suspicion, paranoia, an obsessive search for enemies within. Because Peter is clearly, I guess for understandable reasons, given his boyhood, he is obsessed with the idea of a conspiracy against him. And if there isn't one, he almost feels the need to invent it because there must be one. So a few days after this great sort of assembly, he says to Alexis, I need you to list for me everybody you've ever spoken to about our relationship.

And Alexis, who is completely gullible, produces this huge list of relatives and courtiers and friends and tutors and as soon as Peter has the list in his hands, he sends orders to Alexander Menshikov in St Petersburg, close the gates and seal off the city and now send your agents out to round up every single person on this list. So that's aristocrats, it's bishops, it's officers, all Alexis's former servants. We're going to interrogate them all and get to the bottom of this conspiracy. Now one of the people on this list is Alexis's mother, Peter's ex-wife Eudokia. So she's still around.

She's been in the monastery in Suzdal for the last 19 years But she has been writing to Alexis and there is worse Peter just forgotten about her. But when his agents arrived they find she's given up being a nun Oh, so she's growing her hair back. Her hair has returned and what is more? She has been living in a relationship With the captain of her guards the man who's meant to to be guarding her is a man called Stepan Glebov. And so Peter says, what? And he has Glebov arrested as well as the head of the convent and some of the nuns.

Dominic, I would not want to be in Glebov's boots. You absolutely would not for reasons that will now become apparent. So now they begin the show trials. These are held in the great hall of the Kremlin. Peter himself acts as chief prosecutor and he makes the case against all of the names on this list. To give the example of Eudokia in the convent, the nuns who have done nothing are sentenced to be publicly flogged. Eudokia is sent to a really remote convent up in the north, but some of the other prisoners are sentenced to death or beaten with a knout or exiled.

Because what judge can resist the appeal of the prosecutor if the prosecutor is the Tsar? Exactly. So a lot of the sentences were carried out in Red Square. I mean, it's the classic, you know, Peter the Great carry on of people being broken with hammers on the wheel, people having their noses sliced off, having their tongues ripped out. But the worst fate of all is reserved for this bloke, Stepan Glebov, the captain of the guards, guarding Eudokia. And remember, he has done nothing wrong. Well, he has slept with Peter's ex-wife, but she's his ex-wife. I wouldn't sleep with Peter the Great's ex-wife. No, fair enough. Well, I mean, you don't want to end up like this. So, Glebov is lashed with the knout and he's burned

with red hot irons. He's stretched out on a plank with spikes driven into his flesh and left there for three days and they keep saying to him, confess. And he says, confess what? Like, I was never part of any conspiracy. And finally, they take Lebov and they impale him on a wooden stake which some accounts say was so artfully inserted that it missed all his vital organs and then he's left on this stake to sort of slowly descend I suppose, I don't know what happens to you if you're impaled on a stake, and it took him 14 hours to die. Oh God. I mean there may well be grimmer ways to die, but I can't think of many.

No. And even though he's found no evidence of the conspiracy, Peter, it never occurs to him that there isn't one and none of his henchmen ever argue with him about it. Then they would come under suspicion. Exactly. It feels very much reminiscent of Stalin in the 1930s because how can you prove your innocence of a conspiracy that never actually existed? Now as for Alexis, the best that he can probably hope for at this point is to be exiled to

a monastery. But of course, if Peter believes he was really the center of a conspiracy, then the implication is that the conspiracy would continue, that even if he's in a monastery, he will be the focus for plots and opposition. So for the time being, Peter keeps him under house arrest in St. Petersburg and all the time Alexis poor Alexis who's such a tragic figure and is so is so much his own worst advocate. He's begging and begging. Please. Can I see Afrosenia? You promised me that I could live with her I love her so much and

finally she is brought to the capital and questioned and it all goes horribly wrong for Alexis. Does she stand by him? She does not, Tom. She does not. She does not stand by her man. So in her luggage, Peter's agents find drafts of letters that Alexis had

written to various kind of big wigs in Russia complaining about his treatment. And Peter has Afrosenia, he questions her personally, he has her brought to see him and he sits down and questions her, must have been terrifying for her. She cracked straight away. She said, I never wanted to go. Alexis forced me. I only slept with him under duress.

He was always whining about you, always complaining. He was always criticizing you to the Habsburg emperor. Whenever he heard of a mutiny or rumors of mutinies in the Russian army, Alexis was delighted. He often talked about what he would do when he became Tsar. He said he'd scrap all your reforms, he would abandon St Petersburg, he'd give power back to the church, He hates slaves. He hates ships. He'd give away all your foreign conquests. And Peter says, well, this is the proof. Here we go. He has Alexis brought in.

What happens to Afrosenia? She's not punished at all, not punished at all. And when Alexis is brought in, he collapses. He has some kind of nervous breakdown. He says to his father, yes, I did write to the Habsburg emperor about you. I did speak ill of yousburg Emperor about you. I did speak ill of you, but only when I was drunk. Yes, I did talk about what I would do when I rule Russia, but I never plotted against you or meant to kill you. And then

Peter says, well, what about this business about you rejoicing when you heard reports of mutinies and rebellions? And now Alexis gives a dementedly self-destructive answer. He says, I was excited at the talk of mutinies, but I believe they would only call for me when you were dead because they planned to kill you. I didn't believe they would dethrone you and let you live. But if they'd call me in your lifetime, probably I would have gone if they had been strong enough. Yeah, that is mad.

It's a rambling but incredibly self-incriminating answer. So Alexis is arrested and he's imprisoned in the Peter and Paul fortress, which as you said, Tom, is the sort of foundation stone of St. Petersburg. And his show trial begins in June, 14th of June. And again, Peter acts as the prosecutor himself. He says, Alexis, he fled to Austria as part of a plot.

He was plotting with the Habsburg emperor. He was intending to seize the throne with Russian mutineers and rebels and with foreign military aid. And he's been lying about it ever since. And when Peter has made the case, Alexis doesn't deny it. He confesses. He confesses to a conspiracy that I don't believe and I don't think any historian believes existed.

So why is he doing that? Why did people do it in the 1930s? They're broken and they hope this is the only way to get clemency because it's very clear that the court will not accept his claim that he's not guilty. So maybe the best thing to do is to pretend that he is guilty and beg for forgiveness. But Peter doesn't forgive him. At Peter's request, the court orders further interrogation. And what this means is the darkest chapter of all in many ways in Peter's story, I think.

So on the 19th of June, Alexis was given 25 lashes of the knout. That will often be enough to kill you. You know, you're beaten with this giant leather whip, chunks of flesh off your back. Five days later, he's given another 15 lashes and his back has now been completely destroyed. It's just a sort of mass of bleeding flesh. And now he's confessing to anything. He tells Count Tolstoy, yes, I wanted my father dead. I would have paid the Austrians to intervene militarily against him. And so that evening armed with that that the court sentences him to death. He's guilty they say of a horrid double patricide first against the father of his country and next against his father by nature and all of Peter's cronies and henchmen sign their names on this sentence.

So the question is will Peter order the sentence against his own son who really deep down has done nothing wrong to be carried out. And everyone's waiting to find out the answer. And then on Tuesday the 26th of June, the rumours sweeps in Petersburg that Alexis has dropped dead of a stroke of some kind. And the story is given out that he had this stroke. Peter rushed to his bedside in the prison. Alexis made a full confession. He repented. Father and son embraced.

Alexis was given the last rites and that was the end of that. But actually, this isn't what happened. We know what happened from the logbook with the fortress. Actually, earlier that morning, Peter and his closest cronies, including Count Torstoy and including Alexander Menshikov, gathered in the torture chamber and had Alexis brought to them, and they worked on him for three hours. And a few hours later, Alexis died,

effectively having been tortured to death by his own father. So it's just an unbelievably horrifying story. And in his biography, Peter the Great, Robert K. Massey compares it with Ivan the Terrible killing his own son, which is a very famous scene in Russian history. It's a very famous painting by Ilya Repin. And the difference is that Ivan the Terrible killed his own son by lashing out against him in a fit of rage and then was full of remorse that he had killed his son. But the torture is kind of premeditated.

I mean if you think about the torture, the interrogations, the public humiliation, that had gone on for weeks and arguably was part of a passing that had gone on for years. But now they're turning up, the poor man has his back lashed to pieces and they're inflicting God knows what further tortures on him. Yeah, hard to imagine I think any father doing that to their own child, but Peter often behaves in ways that rather stretch the imagination, I guess. Yeah. Alexis was given a state funeral and the reports that Peter wept at it.

But we know that he also that week went to loads of banquets and balls to celebrate the anniversary of the battle of Poltava and afterwards he had a medal struck as if he was celebrating a victory with the image of the sun breaking through clouds and the inscription read, the horizon has cleared. I mean imagine doing that about the death of your own child. I guess the issue is that Alexis was the obvious heir. So what now about the succession? He's got a couple of daughters, teenage daughters, Anna and Elizabeth, and he's got Alexis's son Peter, who's only three, but

actually none of them are quite right and so he has Catherine, his wife, the former Marta Skavronska, the jolly one, yes, he has her crowned as empress, he has a big coronation for her, this is in 1724, this is clearly a marker that she is going to be his successor, which is an amazing thing. I mean, she's an illiterate Lithuanian peasant girl who had come to Russia as a prisoner, but it's a sign of Peter's dominance, his autocratic sway. Yeah. You know, something unthinkable in the 1680s when he was growing up. A measure of just how much he's transformed Russia, I guess, over the course of his life.

How old is he by this point? So he's now 52. He's not an old man, he's younger than you Tom. I think it's fair to say he's not a lean fit honed figure as you are. He's a very moody depressed figure. There's endless corruption scandals which are really getting him down. So there's a very famous one when Catherine Chamber Chamberlain, who's called William Mons, who is the brother of Peter's old mistress, Anna, he's been in a huge bribery scandal. Peter has him beheaded

and he gives Catherine Mons' head in a jar. Preserved, like all the babies in the museum. Yeah, preserved. Odd thing to do to your wife, but there you go. Peter at this stage is really not a well man. So he's been boozing constantly for decades and that has taken its toll. And he has also, we promised sort of spa related action. He's been drinking colossal amounts of ferrous mineral water. So he would drink 21 glasses of ferrous mineral water every morning.

And would he do this for his health? Yeah, but I don't think it does do you any good. I think even the most enthusiastic habitue of a German spa would say, come on, that's a bit much. And does it have any malign consequences? Well, now we're going to get into the thorny issue of Peter's bladder. Peter has a long running urinary infection, which probably left him in agony for two years and by the late summer of 1724, he's in unbelievable agony.

He can't go to the toilet at all. And they finally get a surgeon from England who inserts a catheter up him and manages to extract a huge amount of blood and pus from Peter's bladder. I mean, you would not want to be the doctor that has to do that to Peter, would you? But nor would you want to be at the other end of the doctor's catheter, I think. No, you wouldn't. So eventually he passes this huge stone and things seem to improve, but then in January 1725 he collapses. The doctors investigate. There's more catheter action and they find out something has gone terribly wrong with his bladder and they manage to remove

two liters of putrid urine. Oh god I think that's the the first appearance of putrid urine on the rest is history. In more than 700 episodes. It's an exciting moment in the history of this podcast. Well Peter seems to recover a little bit but then he goes into massive convulsions and on the afternoon of the 27th of January 1725 he asks for convulsions and on the afternoon of the 27th of January, 1725, he asks for a writing tablet and on the writing tablet, he writes the words, leave everything to... Then he falls down.

Hollywood timing. He passes out, drops the pen and never wakes up again. And he died at six o'clock the next morning with Catherine at his bedside. And a last nice detail for you. When he was dead, the doctors cut him open and they found his bladder had been infected with gangrene. And I quote from Robert K. Massey, his sphincter muscle was so swollen and so hard that only with difficulty could it be cut by a knife.

Oh God. So just as he wanted Catherine succeeded him, but Menchikov was the real ruler of Russia. So he's the bling oligarch guy. The bling oligarch. That continued for another, what, two years, and then she died of TB. Then Alexis's son, Peter, became a boy emperor. He didn't last long either. He died of smallpox when he was 14. Then Peter's niece, Anna, became empress for 10 years. And then her baby son, Ivan became emperor for a year. And then finally Peter's daughter, Elizabeth became empress.

There's a lot of babies and women there. Send four decades after Peter's death, Russia, which had never been ruled by a woman before was ruled by a woman, a small boy, a woman, a baby, and then a woman. And it's Sophia dead by this point. Yeah, Sophia has gone. I mean, if she weren't, she would have a baby, and then a woman. And is Sophia dead by this point? Yeah, Sophia is gone. I mean, if she weren't, she would have a wry smile on her lips. A wry smile, but also a sense of frustration because she would have probably done a better job than any of them.

Yeah. But the thing is, I suppose this is testament to Peter's extraordinary achievements that if you'd said this to a Russian in the 1680s or something, this will be the succession. They said, what? Oh, that'll be terrible for Russia. We'll fall apart completely. But of course, even though the faces at the top keep changing, and none of them are quite right, Russia's status is now so established as a great power that it endures. And presumably also the institution of the, of the sardom.

Exactly. The empire, the emperor or the empress, the autocracy is firmly established. And that's the paradox of Peter's life, isn't it? That he westernizes, but the effect of the westernization is to consolidate the autocracy that had always been traditional in Russia. Yeah, I think that's a really good way of putting it actually, that the very process of modernization, which is so top down, entrenches the power of the autocrats, and the kind of centralization of Russia, and concentrates power even more in the in the capital. And maybe also because he was succeeded by such obviously

lesser figures, figures, it was easy to dismiss, I guess, that meant that his star, even posthumously burned even more brightly. So that even, you know, a hundred, 150 years later, people still look to Peter as the exemplar as indeed they still do today to some degree. So in her brilliant book about Peter the Great, Lindsay Hughes quotes a pan-Slav historian called Mikhail Pogodin in 1841, one of the great 19th century historians of Russia. And he said, wherever we look, everywhere we encounter that colossal figure, a figure which is still stretching, as it were, his arms over us, and which it seems will never

disappear from sight, no matter how far we advance in the future. And people did subsequently try to downplay him a bit. So if you were really enthusiastic kind of Slavophile, you know, in my orthodoxy and the old ways and stuff, you might distrust Peter as a pro-Western modernizer. The first communist historians tried to downgrade kind of great men and said, oh, he's just a sort of a vehicle for mercantile gentry capitalism. But Stalin invoked him and Vladimir Putin has invoked him. We discussed how Putin has explicitly compared the war in Ukraine with the Great Northern War and compared himself with Peter recapturing what was always Russia's and all of this kind

of business. What do you make of him, Tom? Well, I mean, he is clearly a Titanic figure in the consequences that his reign has for geopolitics enduring into the present day. He clearly plays a key role in setting up that tension in Russia, which again endures to this day between its kind of Westernizing tendencies and its more traditional tendencies. But also he's the embodiment of why the hope that the process of Westernization, whether it's introducing the enlightenment back in the 18th century or democracy in the wake of the fall of communism, why it never leads to the kind of establishment of state that people in Western

Europe and beyond tend to hope for. Because I guess that he serves as an embodiment of everything that makes Russia seem stupendous but also terrifying. Yeah, I think that's fair enough. I mean, I think in many ways there are greatly attractive parts of his character. The curiosity, the energy, the enthusiasm for novelty, you know, the sailing and the love of going to lectures in Holland or in London and stuff. And yet, especially when we've done that final episode, the cruelty, the paranoia, the autocracy,

they seem so obviously to anticipate the cruelties of Russian history that follow. Well, there are two great bouts of cruelty, aren't there? So there's the Streltsy as well. Yeah, the Streltsy as well. And the truth of the matter is he is a very violent, often angry man. I mean, for me personally, a father who tortures his son to death. I think that's inexcusable. I mean, also I'm very much team Charles the 12th.

Are you? I wish that he'd won the battle of Poltava. Tom, I don't disagree with you at all. You know I love a Swedish Empire. Anyway, I've quoted a lot a brilliant book on which I've relied very heavily which is Robert K. Massey's biography of Peter the Great which is one of the most capacious and it's incredibly readable swashbuckling story. It's as much about Charles the 12th as it is about Peter.

And I really recommend it. So it seems only fair to end with his very last lines, which I think are beautifully judged. He says of Peter, he was a force of nature and perhaps for this reason, no final judgment will ever be delivered. How does one judge the endless role of the ocean or the mighty power of the whirlwind fabulous Fabulous, Dominic. Thank you so much.

And thank you everyone for listening to this Titanic series. We will be back next week with another Titanic figure, Hannibal. So we will see you then. Goodbye. Goodbye. Bye bye. Hi everybody, you're still here. Right at the end of the episode, I'm very impressed by your commitment. But listen, I have a question for you. I want to ask you something in confidence. Do you sometimes listen to the adverts on these episodes? And do you sometimes think, do you know what?

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