The Rest Is History - 57. Paris

Episode Date: May 27, 2021

It may just be the most popular city on earth. Throughout history Paris has maintained a grip on the public imagination, thanks to its culture, architecture and its people. French journalist and historian Agnès Poirier joins Tom Holland and Dominic Sandbrook to discuss La Ville Lumièr. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Thank you for listening to The Rest Is History. For weekly bonus episodes, ad-free listening, early access to series, and membership of our much-loved chat community, go to therestishistory.com and join the club. That is therestishistory.com. I no longer believe in any other revolution, said Richard Wagner, save that which begins with the burning down of Paris. A comment that speaks volumes about the outsized role that the French capital has played in the imaginings, not just of the French themselves, but of the entire world. And today's episode is the first episode of The Rest is History that we're devoting to the history of an entire city. And Dominic Zanbroek with me. It's got to be Paris, hasn't it, really? I suppose so. I think Paris has played this emblematic role, hasn't it, in the world's imagination for the best part of, well, certainly maybe a thousand years um i actually don't like paris at all tom um as our twitter followers will know yes they do

because because um every week obviously when we do an episode we ask for questions yeah so mine very francophile i i that's you know we will be tracing the surprise me we will be tracing the glories beauties wonders and terrors that have marked 2,000 years of the City of Light. That was me. Yeah. Have you got mine there as well? The City of Light, or the most overrated city on earth, a wash in dog excrement where you often see people urinating in the streets.

I had the worst bout of food poisoning of my life in Paris, incidentally. You did my voice perfectly. You did my voice perfectly, John. John Bull speaks. I had scallops on Valentine's Day with my wife, and we both got hideously ill. And that, to me, that was like the nail in the coffin of the City of Light.

I haven't been back, actually. Never been back. That's what comes of going abroad, though, isn't it? Well, people used to take tins of baked beans, didn't they? A terrible warning. Yes. Thank goodness, then. though isn't it well people used to terrible bay beans didn't they a terrible warning yes thank goodness then thank goodness that as well as the john bull of chipping norton we have our first french guest agnes poirier um well-known journalist well-known commentator who has um familiar to both French and to British listeners,

but also has written two fantastic books on the history of Paris, Left Bank, Art, Passion and the Rebirth of Paris, 1940 to 1950. And that's a really fabulous book because that 1940 to 1950, you get the Second World War and then you get the recovery from the Second World War. And that's kind of unusual way of doing it. And then, Agnes, Notre Dame, the soul of France, which obviously you wrote in the aftermath of the terrible fire that swept the great cathedral. And you begin the book very movingly with an account of, you know, you watched the fire, you live right next to the

cathedral itself. And that was something, the thought that Notre Dame might be lost was something that people in Paris, people in France obviously found incredibly upsetting, but also people around the world. And I wonder, why do you think it had the impact that it did, the thought that Notre Dame might be lost? Well, I mean, we have to go back on that night, 15th of April 2019, and I happened to be in Paris. Strangely, I was preparing to comment on an address that President Macron was going to do after the unrest of the Yellow Vests, the Gilets Jaunes. And it was a beautiful, beautiful day. And when in Paris Paris I'm lucky to live right opposite on the left bank with a wonderful view on the south rose window and 7 p.m I see this huge smoke yellow smoke and clouds through the kitchen window and so I rush down on the quay, on the river, because it could only come from what is opposite, that is to say, Notre Dame.

And that was the beginning of a very dramatic evening. And it's very strange because there were two things happening at the same time. You're a French person or a Parisian, and you feel this ontological shock and you're profoundly upset, but you don't exactly know why. Of course, it's a gem of Gothic architecture. She's been with us in Notre Dame for more than 850 years,

achievement of humankind, but it went much further than that. And that's why, actually, I wanted to write the book. I wanted to understand my own feelings. And second shock is to see that the whole world is watching with us those images and feel the same thing. And because I've got to commence, that's my daily job to, you know, every time there's something happening in France or in Paris, I get calls from

all over the world and I need to find words immediately to explain what's going on. And I had people in tears in TV studios and radio studios in Sydney, in Singapore, in Beijing, name it, all over the world. And some of them, TV presenters in tears saying, and yes, I've never been to France, but I know Notre Dame. I'm in tears. Explain why I felt like this. And so suddenly there was a hadn't set foot in the cathedral in 15 years. I'm not

a practicing Catholic, I'm not religious. So the religious dimension, you know, couldn't tell the whole story. And so we're really at the heart, if you'd like, of your podcast in, you know, why Paris? Of course, Paris had to be the first uh podcast you would dedicate to a city because this is uh the epitome of uh the city and i think it's been going on for a thousand years and what do you think it means then if you can boil it down i mean that's obviously we're meant to be doing that in an hour but if you can boil it down in sort of three lines or so, what is it that Paris represents, do you think? It depends, you know, if we're starting in the 12th century, for instance, we could, especially if we're talking about Notre Dame,

but we could also be slightly more modern or contemporary in the sense that I think for people today, they get their idea of Paris because Paris is as much an idea than a reality. Yeah. But you know what's interesting though? You talk about the medieval and the modern, but even in antiquity, so there's a comment by Julian the Apostate, who was the nephew of Constantine the Great. And he says, of Paris, he calls it Lutetia, which is the Roman name, and he calls it my beloved Lutetia. So even in the Roman period, there was clearly something about it that gave it this kind of sense. And perhaps, I don't know what it is. Perhaps it's just the positioning of it on the Seine.

Perhaps it's just kind of the drama of its positioning. I don't know. There's lots of cities on rivers. I mean, there must be something more than that. Yeah. Clearly, I mean, it's an important Roman city. Its name, Paris, comes from the local tribe, the Parisi. It survives the fall of Rome. Kings in paris the frankish kings are

building amphitheaters as late as the sixth century it's kind of amazing so in a sense there's a kind of degree of continuity much greater than you get say in the history of london where there really is a kind of meltdown um and then it emerges again as the main city of the of what becomes the french royal family so that's really the key isn't it and yes that it's it's it's a royal city from the beginning yes it is and actually it's interesting when i say it's the idea as it's as much an idea than a reality in the 12th century look at cities all around europe um you know london has inhabitants. Actually, the most populous cities are found in the Flanders and in northern Italy. Venice and Milan have 200,000 inhabitants, which is enormous. But Paris has almost 300,000 inhabitants. And while cities usually perform one role, for instance, you know,

Ghent, for instance, is a commercial city, or Venice is a commercial city, and Bologna is a university city. Well, Paris performs all the roles. It's a university city, it's a royal city, it's the bishop's city, it's also the merchant city. And that time, when actually Notre Dame, it's not a surprise, was built, you know, between, let's say, 1150 and the end of the 14th century, the end of the 13th century, sorry, Paris will live through 150 years of continuous growth. Imagine that. It's never happened since.

It's a dream, you know, because we're talking about intellectual expansion, artistic, economic. It's a huge economic boom. And here you are, you know, this gem of a Gothic masterpiece springing from the very heart, the Île de la Cité. And at the time, we're talking about 10,000 inhabitants just there. Today, there are only, what, not even 900. And it's the bustle of a city. It's, you know, the life. The rich live next to the poor and destitute and the narrow lanes. I mean, when I had to research that medieval Ile de la Cité, it was extraordinary because it's this, you know, if I was a chemist, I would talk about the precipitate of life. You know, it's there.

And it's coming from all over Europe, isn't it? I mean, that's the other thing, that right from the beginning, Paris is a magnet for people, not just from France, but from across Europe. And they're going to the university. And even in the Middle Ages, Paris is famous for its intellectuals. Well, yes. Dominic's pulling a face. That's just my natural resting face, Dom. Maybe it's a knee-jerk thing when I hear the word intellectuals. You reach for your gun yeah but the students the students were flocking to the university of paris

and already uh because obviously there were students uh you know religious students but already some very independent minded scholars and teachers um those you know young minds of Europe and setting up new schools and quite dissident schools right on the left bank and where would the students go and find lodgings well on the left bank it wasn't called the left bank, but because it was cheaper. And you think, okay, well, Jean-Paul Sartre, you know, you can, I mean, it started a thousand years. It begins with Abelard, I guess, who we did an episode on the top 10 eunuchs and Abelard appeared in that.

And Agnes, at what point do you think, so cities often, their image is sort of created in competition with other cities. So London, the way we think of London, it's kind of wrapped up with the way we think of Paris. Paris is romantic and walking along the Seine, and London is businesslike and pragmatic and all this sort of stuff. At what point do you think Paris even noticed London?

Or was Paris defining itself against, I don't know, Rome or places in flanders or or other italian cities or whatever well it depends on you know what what period we're talking about because obviously um you know rome um well you know loomed heavily uh but also athens it's it's interesting there's a uh i'm just making a you know a huge a huge leap to the Belle Epoque, but there's an area of Paris called Pigalle, which I'm sure you know. And a lot of clubs or cafes at the Belle Epoque were called the New Babylon, the New Athens. And so London actually, you know, it's a 19th century comparison. I think this is when Paris, you know, when all the revolutionaries, the communards, you know, different, the exiles, basically, they would go to Belgium and they would go to Brussels and they would go to London. Also, perhaps the 18th century, Voltaire going to London. It's maybe the first time that London gets kind of promoted as an

alternative. Of course. And not only London, the fashion, what we call the Anglomania, probably started with Voltaire. And so we went through bouts and fads of thinking that everything english was fantastic but but think i mean going back to the middle ages and thinking the relationship between paris and london it london is absolutely subordinate and it's it's the fashions that you get in paris that determine what people wear in london and i guess that again i mean it's amazing you get kind of intellectuals amazing architecture and you get fashion right the way from the Middle Ages all the way through. And I guess that's the power of Paris as a kind of mythic place, isn't it? That actually, these myths are very, very old. And they're not even myths. They're kind of bread of circumstance. But it's amazing that Paris has had this kind of outsized role in the imaginings of Europeans right the way from the Middle Ages.

And I think we should mention the French Revolution because for the people today, their knowledge of medieval time is not as great as the contemporary history. And we think, what are the clichés about Paris? It's May of the 68 events. It's mass protest, student protest with the black Polonex. You know, it's Derrida, it's Foucault. But before that, really, it's the French Revolution.

And when I said that Paris was an idea as much as a reality when your French citizen, a Parisian, fed on a motto which is liberté, égalité, fraternité, amener you never recover from it and actually it's almost a malediction as we call it it's almost a malediction, as we call it. It's almost a curse, really. Because do you know the Paris syndrome for the Japanese? They have such an incredible idea of supreme ideal, idealist idea of Paris, when they arrive in Paris, obviously they

are so disappointed, they feel sick. Like Dominic. Like Dominic, exactly. And so, because you can never reconcile the idea and the reality and i wish uh that so many people never set foot in paris because it's um the reality doesn't measure up to to the myth i i i wasn't just i i thought it was great i it met every expectation um when did you when did you go tom when did you first go how old are you um when did i first go i must have been about 20 I think and I I just felt incredibly depressed coming back to London thinking how much more beautiful Paris was um I was yeah I was really depressed about it I thought Paris

was so amazing that I kind of looked at London and thought oh and what was it though was it the the sort of the boulevard and the 19th century I thought it was incredibly physically beautiful um yeah but it was just the excitement of it it was it was this kind of sense of that I was at the I was at the kind of beating heart of so much that had transformed and changed the world um it was it was kind of in the 80s and I think London felt a bit shabby in comparison well London was very shabby in the 80s but but it was the sense that you know i'm walking the streets where all these incredible people walked and it was you know i have an immense appetite for cliche and i've that appetite was hugely satisfied but it was yes it was the it was the weight of history i think um i mean we've got

so on the on the theme of revolution we've got a question here from kane carlisle and he says wondering why paris is always linked to revolutionary figures. Thinking of figures such as Marx, Bakunin. What is it? Bakunin. How do you pronounce that? Bakunin. Yeah. So apologies to enthusiasts for revolutionary thinkers there.

But also more modern revolutionary figures like Ayatollah Khomeini. Why do these people always set up shop there? Assuming it's not only due to legacy of the French Revolution. Ho Chi Minh was a pastry chef. Could I, I mean, just before we go back to the French Revolutionary period, just to go back a bit, I think, because I think one answer to that is that it is actually pre-revolutionary. So the parent of learning, who do you think described Paris as the parent of learning? It was Martin Luther, who you wouldn't have down as a Francophile.

And the amazing thing about Paris is that both Ignatius Loyola, the guy who founds the Jesuits, and John Calvin, John Calvin, the great Protestant thinker, both studied at the same school. So even in the 16th century, although you tend to think of Germany

as the kind of the womb of the Reformation, it's all going on in Paris. And then, of course, you've got the literal slaughter of the streets with the massacre on St. Bartholomew's Day. So I think even the 16th century, you've got this sense of Paris as an absolute cauldron of intellectual, moral ferment, which I guess kind of percolates through. Paris is the intellectual capital as well as the fashion capital through the 17th, through the 18th century, which then is why the French Revolution comes as such a shock. It shouldn't really, because in a sense, it's kind of been brewing. But Agnes, James Beamish had a question about Paris's golden age.

Do you think the golden age was before the revolution or do you think it's more modern well i think the golden age i mean that's what i was describing when you think of the 12th century and the 13th century really um because we've never seen that expansion for such a long time uh we would dream of living 150 years of expansion, development in every single discipline. Yes. It hasn't been as good ever since. That's very depressing. And I'm not even a medievalist.

I think that's a great note on which to end the first half, that the whole history of Paris has been a sad decline since the 13th century. But perhaps in the second half, we could look at, I guess, what more traditionally would be seen as the golden age of Paris, which I guess would be the kind of the 19th century. And look at its 19th and 20th century history, because there's so much to talk about there. So we will see you back after the break. I'm Marina Hyde. And I'm Richard Osman. And together we host The Rest Is Entertainment.

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That's therestisentertainment.com. Bienvenue, mes amis. We're talking about Paris with the French journalist, writer, and historian, Agnès Poirier. And we have... So, Agnès Poirier and we have, so Agnès the image of Paris to a lot of Anglo-Saxon listeners

now is a city that's constantly in revolution where basically people are always ripping up cobbles and throwing them at the police first of all is that justified and secondly is that do you think, is there a sense in which people are just constantly re-enacting the French Revolution and the events of 1789 and 1793, 1794? Again, every generation in Paris feels a kind of obligation almost to chuck stones at the police and sort of gird up for the guillotine.

Well, you nailed it. It's impossible to be French and not to go through that rite of passage. We can't help it. It's ridiculous. And when you think of, you know, the last 200 and, you know, 40 years since the French Revolution, look at Britain.

You know, Britain has been perfecting the art of croquet for that amount of time when France was actually going through 11 political changes and regime changes. And I'm talking, you know, from the empire to the first, second, third, fourth, fifth republic, the second empire, the commune. I would say even Vichy, but Vichy is not supposedly France, or at least that was the myth. But it's not Paris, is it? No, exactly. Precisely. But it's not even France. I mean, it's very convenient. We have a way with history and in a way that's how we could reconcile with each other after the war. But we now know, I mean, we owed it. And it was quite recently, actually, it was Jacques Chirac.

One of the very few good things he did as a president. He acknowledged the fact that Vichy France was also France. And yes, so it's turmoil all the time. And we've been talking about a sixth republic for the last 20 years now, as if it was going to solve our problems. And so, as you know, we thrive on division. We are unruly to an excess I would say

and clashing with the police is what you have to do and so there's always a demonstration that you can join and I was 14 when in 86 there was we didn't understand a thing I was obviously at the DC

and it was the reform of the university law and I went marching and the smell of tear gas actually a student was killed so I realized the day after that it was not just a dangerous sport yes this is when I sort of realized that protest could be dangerous and it was all very political. But the thing is, politics, if you're a Parisian, politics in everything you do and from a very early age. I can't remember not feeling political, not going on the march with my parents and ever since. I used as a student in London, I would go on the Eurostar to go and march at the weekend in Paris and come back. Wow, that's commitment. That is commitment. It's not commitment. It's existential. Of course it is. Of course it is. You're Parisian.

Of course it's existential. Yes, but it's exhausting. Yes. Okay. So looking at the broad sweep of French revolutionary history, we've done the French Revolution. We've dealt with that already. We've completely sorted that out. It needs never be discussed by anybody again. It needs never be discussed again. We've nailed that. And Napoleon, I think we're going to do at some later point.

But could we, in the episode of the french revolution i mentioned how my my daughter's favorite film was um marie antoinette um but they then moved on to another film which was of course um les miserables don't know if you've seen it but it features um revolutionary activity um dominic have you seen it i have yeah i have seen it. Okay, so how accurate is the portrayal of the revolution in Les Miserables? But the thing about it is it's a very minor revolution. It's what in England would be considered a big revolution. But I think the uprising in Les Miserables is actually not a successful revolution. That's right. It's kind of in the 1820s sometime, isn't it?

Isn't it a sort of a pre-1830 or pre-1848? I can't remember. Well, I'm just asking because my daughter's to be listening to this, so I want you to give them the answer. Since Agnes hasn't seen it. Okay, well... I'm sure it's incredibly realistic.

That's my answer. And they all sing. But it's the part of... But actually Les Miserables completely and utterly conforms to what Agnes was talking about. It does. The pattern of the sort of self-conscious reproduction of the story of the French Revolution,

the sort of waving the flag, the barricades. But can I tell you what it also has, which for me is a crucial part of my imagining? Yeah, it does have Russell Crowe. Great, great songster. But what it also has is them running through sewers. Yes, there's a lot of sewers yes there's a lot of sewers there's a lot of catacombs and sewers uh they're a crucial part of of my imagining of paris and the sense of you know master criminals and um detectives vidoc the great um the great police

chief who then sets up the first detective agency so that's also a part of it um and i guess that that kind of blurs with the sense that in that in paris you're never entirely sure who's you know will will the criminal turn out to be the police chief or vice versa and likewise you know will the emperor turn out to be the refugee um will the there's the constant possibility that everything will be turned on its head? And would you agree that that's kind of part of the drama and the fascination of Parisian history? And perhaps also it gives you your existentialist headache? Yes, I would agree. But you know what? Just to go back one second on what we were saying.

The thing with the French Revolution, it gave us the idea, and not only the idea, because it proved us right throughout, that the power lays with the people, not with the elected representatives or the government, which is kind of strange, and it's completely un-British in many ways. When in Britain you have one million people marching in the streets, it's anecdotal. It's not going to change anything to the government's or the prime minister's decision, because in Britain, the legitimacy of the power it lays with the parliament was in France with the people so we know we have this power we only need to be you know one million, usually if we were one million in the streets of Paris

we will overturn the government's reform or plan so we have this incredible incredible power in our hands reform or plan. So we have this incredible, incredible power in our hands or in our feet, really. And to go back on the sort of underground place, you know, the catacombs and the sewers,

it's interesting because during, in 1944, you know, the resistance were operating from the catacombs. So you had the Germans, you know, the resistance were operating from the catacombs. So you had the Germans, you know, tanks and just a few meters below the tanks, you had the Gauls men and the communists in their early 20s, fomenting the insurrection. And, and of course the police we have such different the police doesn't have a very good image in France because they can turn villain

very quickly and it's not a coincidence that Napoleon created the most efficient police in Europe at the time there's a fantastic portrait of Fouché, who was the police head hancho of Napoleon, by Stephen Zweig. It's the most remarkable book about, in a way, the first French policeman. So yes, there's always something murky in Paris,

but very attractive too. But the thing about protest raises the issue that's always hung over modern Parisian history, which is Paris versus France. So to a lot of people outside France, people who know nothing of French history, Paris kind of is France. But obviously within the story of France, there's always been, I mean, we talked in our French Revolution podcast about the Vendée and about the hideous kind of

bloodletting in the French Revolution. And obviously a big part of Paris's history was the Commune in, what is it, 1870, 71. They've lost the war against Prussia. They set up this sort of left-wing regime, and then the rest of France turns on them. And is it Adolphe Thiers who sends in the army and crushes them? And it's this sense of Paris as something apart from France. Do you think Paris, it's a stupid question, really, but in some ways, isis france or is it something different well if you're jacobine um paris is france obviously um and i remember very arrogant you know i was very arrogant um as a young french woman in in uh in britain in the when i arrived as a student in the late 90s

and people were british friends would say where do you come from and i say paris where else um and that's exactly how i would expect a french student to talk and because you know it's such a centralized the french revolution um made france and in a way paris uh what it is, so centralized. Because it was bits and pieces. And that was the only way that we could make one people. And the same happened to the language. Today, the idea that we could let Breton or Corsican

be a language taught in French school is sort of very, very shocking to Jacobin ears, if you like, because it goes against the idea of France as one people, one nation. And if you look at Europe, it's actually the most centralized. The concept of nation really is very much alive in France. And so to answer your question, yes, Paris is France in many ways, even though La Commune is really the failure of Paris

because Paris wanted to lead the way and show the way. Didn't they eat zoo animals? Oh, yes. My great-great aunt ate rats during the Commune. But not a tiger? No. she only mentioned rats. I was very small, but I remember that detail. Goodness,

that's a link with history. But I mean, that's an incredibly bloody episode, isn't it? I mean, that must have left a really deep scar on Paris's... I mean, basically the rest of France turns on it and lots of people are killed. It's like Brexit. Yes. But I mean, that must have been do you think that you can draw a line from that to kind of vichy and all that sort of stuff well it's very strange because when you're

you know in france and i was a left-wing left-wing student we were given that myth of lacrimine being that fantastic episode of French history. And when 15 years later, I plunged into the history of Lacombe, it's just a massive failure on every account. And the division of the Republicans, therefore, of the left wing of the time was abysmal. And when actually, for instance, the Second Republic, 1848 to 1852, it only lasted for four years, but we're still enjoying many of the social reforms that were passed at the time before Napoleon III made a coup and became first the president and then the emperor. But La Commune is such a myth that needs to be debunked, at least in France, because I'm sure you know all about it but for for us especially um anyone on the left in France they they still think naively that Le Camus was that perfection in history um you mentioned Napoleon the third and I think I remember I think it may have been in Notre Dame that you say of Napoleon

the third that actually preferred London to uh to Paris and he spent much of his life in London. And yet he had as much influence as any ruler of Paris has had on the face of the city. And of course, there is one key figure in that history. And we've got a question from Thoughtfully Catholic, who asks, was it a happy coincidence for the regime that Baron Haussmann's reconstruction of Paris made it both easier to move troops and more difficult to construct barricades? So that's what's often said about Haussmann's reforms, that that's the aim. But just more broadly, to what extent do you think Haussmann is personally responsible for the image and the look of Paris to this day? Is he as significant a figure as the myth has him i think he is yes because of the amount of um recreation of paris or or some would say completely destroyed and disfigured and uh destructed paris but um yes the city which you

which you mentioned as being full of people and basically he's the guy who who clears it doesn't he completely i mean basically he's's the man chosen. He was the prefect of Bordeaux. And Napoleon III, who didn't like Paris so much. And that's why he could decide on such radical redesign of the French capital. Otherwise, he would have never dared doing what he did. And he chose Haussmann for his efficiency. He was a workaholic. He would come to his office at 6 a.m. And he was very talented as well. And the thing is, he still carries this sick, sick body that needed a surgeon. And he told Hausmann, look, I want Paris to breathe. I mean, we're

also talking, I mean, it did great things in terms of hygiene, because Paris was this place with cholera, for instance, in 1832, 20,000 Parisians died of cholera. You had pockets of, I mean, it was so insalubrious. And the Ile de la Cité even itself, although it was a gem of medieval lanes and it hadn't so much changed since the Middle Ages, but it was also a haven of prostitution and criminality and disease. So Haussmann just cut like a surgeon and made those big, you know, arteries where people, Parisians were very happy.

They had this huge boulevard. They had this beautiful urban design, which we still have somehow, I mean, in some parts of Paris. And he gave it the look that we so cherish today. So, you know, every Parisian is in two minds about Hausmann, because so much was lost, so many hôtels particuliers, so, you know, gems on the Boulevard Saint-Germain on both sides of the river, really. But on the other hand, he also gave all these boulevards with this uniform

looking buildings, all the same with their maids' rooms on the 6th and 7th floor, this sort of bourgeois, but also, you know, there was gas and electricity and water uh and the sewers too i mean they had started we love sewers but you know each time there was a head

of state visiting paris they wanted to have a visit of sewers uh because it was such you know state of arts uh sewers so know, he was a great guy and he destroyed a lot of Paris. So do you think, I mean, basically, that is then what sets the stage for what I guess most people outside France would think of as Paris's golden age, which is the Belle Epoque.

And when, you know, the era where Paris is the centre of the world. And you've got Proust and Picasso and Toulouse-Lautrec. I was going to ask a question which, well, Thoughtfully Catholic has asked another question, which I think is a really good question, because this is the Paris of Émile Zola. And it's the Paris of the kind of classic 19th century,

late 19th century French novels. I mean, I loved, when I was a student, I had this mad idea of reading all Zola's Rujon macar sequence and completely nuttily failed but um you know that portrait of paris there is kind of late 19th century paris and that's the one that is enshrined i think in the world's imagination i think it's a bit later i think it's i think it's the kind of the the paris of of proust and no i don't know i despise that paris i'm all about that i'm all about the late 19th century Paris. I'm the Paris of La Somoire and all these sort of...

It's a massive Zola-Proust punch-up. It is. Zola would win that punch. I mean, Zola, God, a mighty course. I mean, Proust would just retire to his room. He would, but they would. The noise. But also the Dreyfus case. The Dreyfus case.

I mean, Paris is sort of convulsed by that, isn't it, Agnes? and sometimes generations don't talk to each other. And of course it's different, but not in the way it has set people against each other, I think. And yes, the Dreyfus Affair is a defining moment of modern France. So the Dreyfus affair is when this Jewish officer is accused, falsely accused of espionage. He's sent off his knee to Devil's Island. And it's clearly that he's been framed. There's anti-Semitism.

He's been supposedly passing secrets to the Germans. And then it turns into this colossal scandal because they cover it up, don't they? And in a way, can you not sort of trace that all the way? And Zola sends in j'accuse jacques exactly and gets in such trouble that he he has to go into exile in upper norwood fate worse than death and objects to the quality of the pastry in upper norwood which i don't think he's very grateful is that really true yeah yeah well i mean pastry i i've mentioned my fact about ho chi minh training under supposedly training under

le scoffier as a pastry chef. So pastry is obviously woven through French history. Yeah, well, he went to Upper Norwood and he complained they overboiled the fish and the pastry was inedible. Well, he had food poisoning, you see. Don't think it shows much gratitude, really, for the hospitality of Upper Norwood. But then I guess we're into the World Wars, aren't we? When Paris is a city, I so in world war one the germans

kind of almost get there but they're stopped on the marne by the taxi drivers of paris who kind of you know all set off and carried the soldiers to the front and then of course paris almost falls in the first world war and then it does fall in the second world war but obviously that everyone's seen those pictures of a the the germans sort they're on horseback, aren't they? They're riding down the Champs-Élysées. And there's also the famous images of people sobbing in the streets. And the sense in which Paris, which is this sort of sacred centre of France, has fallen actually in the most humiliating way to the foreign invader. That's what Casablanca is about.

The whole of Casablanca, in a sense, is a kind of... A lament. A lament for the occupation of Paris. It's interesting because, in a way, the fall of Paris really defined, again, no other city was more powerful. And the fall of Paris represented

the fall of Western civilisation. Nobody talks about the fall of Brussels, do they? I mean, well, the Belgians do, but nobody else does. But also, likewise, the liberation of Paris was... And that's where Notre Dame comes in again. Yes, that was this moment of pure elation, not only for Paris, but for the whole world. This is, in a way, you know, there are wonderful moments

because Paris was not going to be liberated by the Allies because, you know, as I know, it was not a strategic... Is it Leclerc? Leclerc. It's the dash. Yes. So basically, at some point, you know, in Normandy, as the invasion, or as we call it in France, you know, in Normandy, as the invasion

or as we call it in France, you know, the debarquement is happening, the American troops are not going to go via Paris because it's not strategic. They have to make their way as fast as possible towards the east. And de Gaulle

says, look, guys, we need to liberate Paris. And de Gaulle says, look, guys, we need to liberate Paris. And so he has this very heated conversation with Aizano. And of course, the Free French are under command of the Americans. I mean, they can't go, otherwise they will face, you know, a martial court. But because it's so important, Leclerc, who is under the command of Général de Gaulle,

actually sends a vanguard. And he faces, really, I mean, it could have been a trial and been a march on court, but he sends a vanguard. And at the same time, the resistance in Paris have launched their own insurrection. And there are some very dangerous moments when the Parisians don't have anything to eat. They obviously, I mean, the resistance can do what they can. But also, I mean, adding to the jeopardy is the fact that Hitler has ordered the governor of

Paris to basically blow it up. He has instructions to destroy the city rather than abandon it. It's the most dramatic, hair-raising narrative. And then it has this kind of wonderful climax where the governor doesn't blow up Paris. The Allies join with the Free French in capturing it. Hemingway gets drunk and General de Gaulle walks into Notre Dame and there is no one better to tell us the story of what then happens than you. Go on, give us a patriotic French thrill.

But Hemingway, before he gets drunk at the Ritz, you know what he does? He goes to Shakespeare and Company to say hello to the wonderful ladies there. And he also calls on his friend Pablo Picasso. But Pablo is not there. But the concierge of Picasso says, do you want to leave a note? So he goes back to his Jeep and he takes hand grenades and he leaves a few hand grenades with a note to Picasso. And then he goes to the Ritz. Okay, now fast forward 26th of August 1944. General de Gaulle has arrived.

There are still German snipers in the streets of Paris. I mean, it's still quite a dangerous place, but obviously the Leclercc, the Free French and the Americans have moved in. And so that's how the whole day has been conceived. And the radio tells, the French radio tells Parisians and the French that de Gaulle is going to walk down the Champs-Élysées. So two million people in the streets of Paris to acclaim that man they've never seen really. They might have seen the picture, might have listened to him on the BBC, but they've never met him. So he goes down the Champs-Élysées. At the Place de la Concorde, there are far too many people, so he has to hop on a car that drives him through Rue de Rivoli, passes the Louvre. He goes to Hôtel de Ville, where he inspects the troops and the communist resistance and the Free French all together. And Washington and London and all the film operators are there. And Washington and London are looking very keenly to see whether de Gaulle is really the man, because they don't

know yet. And whether he can tame all those unruly communist resistance. This is really what they are afraid of, especially Washington. And de Gaulle being de Gaulle and being a French man, he says, I need to end with a mass, a tedium at Notre Dame. So he walks from the Hotel de Ville in this sea of people. And he just passes the porch, the entrance of Notre Dame, when snipers within the cathedral starts shooting. And imagine, there are about 10,000 people who have been waiting for de Gaulle to enter. They've been sitting on the pews everywhere, waiting for that great liberator. And so how Brex loseos, and we have this audio document that I really urge people to listen to. You can. It's accessible online.

There's this young guy, he's 27. His name is Raymond Marciac. It's his first live reportage for French radio. He's lying on his belly with all his equipment on the upper gallery. And we listen to all this. And we hear so much fire and the bullets ricketing on the pillars and, you know, such a brouhaha. And so he describes the scene saying that people are just crouching

and hiding behind pillars and under the pews. And de Gaulle is just walking tall at a slow pace. Bullets are just whizzing. And he goes up the altar. And it's very funny because de Gaulle talks about this moment, obviously, in his memoirs. And he says, well, I had to be very calm so that people don't panic because the last thing we needed was a panic of 10,000 people in that Gothic cathedral.

And he keeps it to 12 minutes, basically, because there are a lot of people being injured outside on the square. A 12-minute mass? Yes. That's Father Ted, isn't it? It was a magnificent. And you can hear it in that audio reportage. It's magnificent. And so he stands up and he walks slowly.

And it's quite extraordinary because he could have been shot there. It was an assassination attempt. And he just has a word with Leclerc and says, you know, clean up the place for me, please. But to this day, we don't know who those snipers were, whether they were German, collaborateur, or perhaps communist. Because the communists really didn't want, really, de Gaulle as the French leaders, the French new leader. But luckily, de Gaulle managed to tame the communists. And then after the war, do you think that was Paris's last kind of golden age, the age of the left bank and existentialists going up to, I don't know,

1968. And that was the kind of Paris's last moment in the sun, as it were, internationally. Oh, yes, I think so. Well, first of all, because everybody still at the time could read French or understand French. So it means that they didn't need to be read in translation or they were translated. Whereas today, you don't understand French intellectuals when they speak and you don't read them because they are not translated. But having said that, I'm not sure that's true because I think that the influence of of um paris intellectuals it remains incredibly strong i mean certainly in america but not as strong as it was in the 50s though i think i think more so i think i think the influence of fuko and derrida is that's only in universities though tom yeah only in universities but we've discussed culture wars and we've seen you know

this reverberates outwards and the irony is is... You can buy posters of Albert Camus. No one can buy... You can't buy a poster of Jack Derrida. Because he's safe and dead. Whereas Foucault and Derrida, I mean, essentially, it's their influence on America that people in Paris

are now complaining about. You're right. You know, that's the paradox of it. And we would say today that it's because all those American students didn't understand a thing, Derrida and Foucault, because deconstruction doesn't mean demolition and doesn't mean consolation. And so something was lost in translation here but yes we're suffering today of the terrible misinterpretation of of the french thinkers by american students but i think that's another podcast le blowback well i think on that note and yes i can't thank you enough that the whistle stopped all through the history of of the great city

thank you so much we never cleared up the urinating in the streets though Tom I think that's another podcast isn't it yeah right we should yeah merci

merci beaucoup pas du tout merci bye everybody we'll see you next time. Thanks for listening to the Rest is History. For bonus episodes, early access, ad-free listening, and access to our chat community, please sign up at restishistorypod.com. That's restishistorypod.com.