The Rest Is History - 576. The Irish War of Independence: Rise of the IRA (Part 1)

Episode Date: June 22, 2025

What are the origins of the Irish War of Independence? What impact did the First World War have on Irish efforts for Home Rule? What was the mood in Ireland following the bloody Easter Rising of 1916? And, who was Éamon de Valera, the man who dominated the story of not only Irish politics in the 20th century, but also the entire story of Irish independence? As they launch back into the epic and tumultuous Irish War of Independence, Dominic and Tom are joined once again by historian Paul Rouse, to discuss one of the most important conflicts in the history of Britain.  The Rest Is History Club: Become a member for exclusive bonus content, early access to full series and live show tickets, ad-free listening, our exclusive newsletter, discount book prices on titles mentioned on the pod, and our members’ chatroom on Discord. Just head to therestishistory.com to sign up, or start a free trial today on Apple Podcasts: apple.co/therestishistory. For more Goalhanger Podcasts, head to www.goalhanger.com _______ Twitter: @TheRestHistory @holland_tom @dcsandbrook Producer: Theo Young-Smith Assistant Producer: Tabby Syrett + Aaliyah Akude  Executive Producers: Jack Davenport + Tony Pastor Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Thank you for listening to the rest is history for weekly bonus episodes, ad free listening, early access to series and membership of our much loved chat community. Go to the rest is history.com and join the club that is the rest is history.com. So Tom, we've got some absolutely thrilling news for our listeners down under, don't we? We do Dominic, because of course this autumn sees England going to Australia to lose the ashes, but they're not the only group of Englishmen who will be heading to Australia because we are going there in November and December this year. So we will be playing five tests.

We'll be doing five shows in front of our beloved Australian audience. So in late November, we will be doing two shows in Sydney, including one of the Opera House, and we'll be doing a show in Melbourne. And then the beginning of December, we will be doing shows in Adelaide and in Brisbane. We've got some fantastic shows lined up for you, very possibly featuring one of Australia's greatest exports, but we will draw a veil over that for now. Tickets will be on sale exclusively to our beloved members of the Rest is History Club

from next Monday, that's the 30th of June at 11 a.m. Australian Eastern Standard Time. So join the Rest is History Club at therestishistory.com now if you want to snap your tickets up early. And tickets will then be available to purchase for everyone else at therestishistory.com from next Thursday that's the 3rd of July again at 11 a.m. Australian Eastern Standard Time. So for your chance to see us on stage live in an Australian city near you, just head to therestishistory.com to get your tickets.

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Let me carry your cross for Ireland Lord, let me suffer the pain and shame, I bow my head to their rage and hate and I take on myself the blame. Let them do with my body whatever they will, my spirit I offer to you, that the faithful few who heard our call may be spared to Roisin do. Let me carry your cross for Ireland, Lord, for Ireland weak with tears, for the aged man of the clouded brow and the child of tender years, for the empty homes of her golden plains, for the hopes of her future too.

Let me carry your cross for Ireland, Lord, for the cause of Roisin Do. So that was the Irish revolutionary Thomas Ash. And he wrote that poem when he was in Lewis Prison in Sussex in 1917 and Roisin Dou, by the way, is Ireland. So Ash was a farmer's son from County Kerry. He was a teacher, he was a school principal, he became an Irish language activist before the First World War, great activist in Irish sport as well, set up a local branch of the

Gaelic Athletic Association. And he joins the Irish Volunteers, a paramilitary group in 1913, and then was a key figure in the Easter Rising three years later, fighting a five-hour battle against the Royal Irish Constabulary. He was arrested, he was court-martialed, he was sentenced to death, but his sentence was commuted and then he was released after he'd written that poem. And then in 1917, I mean, growing tension in Ireland, he was arrested again and he went

on hunger strike. And Tom will find out how that story played out a little bit later, won't we? Yeah, we will. And this is the first of a three-part series about the Irish independence struggle between 1916, so the year of the Easter Rising, and 1921, which sees a truce established after a period of war between the British state and Irish revolutionaries. There is then a treaty drawn up between Britain

and what will become the Free State that grants Ireland limited independence and effectively creates Northern Ireland. And then we'll be looking at the bitter civil war that tore Ireland apart in 1922 and 1923. So that'll be two episodes on that. And that story is bookended by two assassinations. The first of those, the British and indeed Irish Field

Marshal Sir Henry Wilson and the Irish National Commander in Chief Michael Collins. But before we get to this extraordinary story, gripping story, we should say where we are because we did a previous episode didn't we on the Easter Rising and we were in the GPO for that perfect setting and here we are in the Auguste en Veyron of the Royal Irish Academy in the heart of Dublin. It contains absolute treasures of old Irish literature going all the way back to the sixth century and of course the the Gaelic revival, the fascination of Irish people in the 19th and early 20th century with their early history is a crucial part of the story

that we'll be telling. But it was also established, the clue is in the title Royal Irish Academy by George III, and so there is a reminder there of how deep the British roots in Irish history are as well. Absolutely, and we're here thanks to our guest today. So a great friend of The Rest Is History, well known as the former caretaker manager of County Offaly, professor of history at University College Dublin, Irish national treasure, Paul Rouse. Oh dear. Paul, I know you hate being called a national treasure. And Paul, it was you, wasn't it, who read that poem. It wasn't Dominic or me.

It was. Doing an impression of Thomas Ash. No, that was me. So Paul, you joined us a couple of years ago and you took us through a mighty sweep. You covered all Irish history up to 1916. We reached at the end of that amid the rubble of the Easter Rising. And before we get into what happens next, maybe we should remind newer listeners of the broader context, because a really important thing for a lot of the Irish revolutionaries is this idea that they have suffered 800 years of British oppression.

And is that fair or is the truth a bit more complicated? It's a bit more complicated, but you'll amaze me. That war cry of 800 years of oppression was particularly bandied about with the start of modern troubles in Northern Ireland in 1969 because there's a really nice symmetry in numerous terms back to 1169 with the arrival of Strongbow followed two years later by King John and the establishment of an English lordship in Ireland. So there is a certain logic to that cry, but we know of course that modern notions of the

nation state do not easily apply back across the centuries. But what matters for our purposes is that the Lordship existed, but was restricted until the 16th century. So you had an area around Dublin, the inside the Pail, which was part of the Lordship. Around the country, then you had Anglo-Irish or English, depending on what title people wish to put on them, massive landowners. And then you had Anglo-Irish or English, depending on what title people wished to put on them, massive landowners, and then you had Gaelic chieftains, all interspersed in a kind of a speckled world of Ireland before the 1600s. Everything then changed under King Henry VIII, who said about conquest of Ireland through war, through diplomacy, through favour, patronage, basically. And of course, that conquest was not accepted by the king's enemies here and

the Irish enemies fought back. But over the period of the following hundred years, you have the introduction of a new factor, that is religion. And religion is tied because of the Reformation, a kind of a changed religious landscape, And it led to the plantation of large swades of Ireland in Ulster and Munster and initially in Leigh-Shawfley of loyal Protestants and the land been taking from people who had previously farmed it. And what this did, of course, was tie religion to land and power and place within society.

So what you get is an extraordinary complex society where there is tolerance and even goodwill at times, but there's also fear and loathing. And there were massacres in the 1640s where Catholics massacred probably 4,000 Protestants. And then you have Cromwell who arrives and by the time he leaves, or his armies leave, there is one fifth of the population dead. So it's time and again religion had wrapped itself like bindweed around the nature of Irish society and it shaped every aspect of life in Ireland. But by the 1700s, Protestant and loyal versus Catholic and rebellious is the slightly cartoonish version of history.

But it's for our purposes, by the time we get to 1800 or the late 1790s, that's where we are. Right. And then in 1800, it changes, there's the Act of Union, and Ireland becomes part of a united kingdom with Great Britain. Yes. In the wake of a rebellion of 1798, which had been driven by ideas of the republics of America and of France and imported this idea of republicanism into Ireland to fit around. Now again, the divides of religion are really more complex in the 1790s, but ultimately that rebellion leads to the passage of an active union in 1800. And so that's why Catholic identity comes to be associated with the idea of republicanism.

It's dating to the period of the French Revolution. It comes from that period onwards and we will see this as we go through it. It's not a kind of a doctrinaire ideological commitment to revolution. It's not a crown and it's not the British crown. It's a driving force for the majority of people. It's the sense of it being different. And even in this unitary state though, supposed unitary state, Ireland, it was the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland. So Ireland was not part of Britain.

Yeah. And that's a really important point to remember as we move through this. And there are probably key defining things that we need to talk about in the 19th century. The first is the fact that there was famine in the 1840s and that famine left, if we go around numbers, a million people dead and a million people emigrated. I know you've a lot of listeners across America. Many of them will be descended from people who left during the famine and in its aftermath. But Paul, also Irish people are emigrating to Britain. And so that is also a crucial

part of the story we'll be telling that there are lots of Irish people growing up in Britain whose identity is conflicted as well. Yeah, and the divides that manifest themselves in Ireland can be seen in places like Liverpool in particular and Dan Jackson when he was on with you previously did this brilliantly in his book is wonderful on the nature of those divides. And you go along the Tottenham Court Road in London, it's remade in those places. And we will be meeting significant players in the story who have spent time in London. Oh, they're really important to the story. So The Famine leaves this sort of legacy, this tremendous trauma, and in the late 19th century you have the Gaelic Revival and a kind of,

is it a revival or an invention of Irish nationalism, would you say? So the famine, first of all, it's important because of the impact it had on Irish nationalism, but it's also important for the emigre communities that are created in America. And we will see how they have to fund and people the revolution, which ultimately we will end up talking about in terms of its invention and its creation. There are parts of it which are entirely invented. Yeah. And there are parts of it which are entirely invented. And there are stories made up, but what there is is a reawakening. You saw earlier here, you mentioned the manuscripts that are there and the annals of the Four Masters that are

here in the Royal Irish Academy. What you had in the 19th century was a rediscovery of these, a translation of them into modern language and a general popularization of Irish myths and sagas. You have a reawakening of interest in the Irish language. You have a creation of an alternative sporting world of daily games. But I mean, this place is fascinating, isn't it? Because it's the royal, you know, you have the royal in the title, but it is generating all this passion and enthusiasm for ancient Ireland.

And a lot of the key figures in this are actually Protestant. So at this point, it's not a kind of binary. No, it's not a binary, but it's, we again, when it comes to empire and it comes to imperial war, we like to imagine that this is a fairly straightforward narrative with clear sides. But of course, the reality of life is way more complex than that.

So talking about complexities, let's come to the crucial years of the 1900s and 1910s, which we did in the last series. I know this is a big ask, Paul, but are you able in like three minutes to explain why the Home Rule crisis, so this is a huge argument in Britain and Ireland about whether Ireland will be granted a Home Rule, basically its own parliament under the Liberal government of Herbert Henry Asquith. And why does that have such a toxic effect on politics in Ireland and why does it lead to this new kind of paramilitary politics?

It leads to an enormous crisis in Britain and in Ireland because you step back here a few years, so you'd Lord Salisbury, the Tory leader in 1872, saying that Ireland, like India, must be kept as part of the empire, if not by persuasion, then by force. So in the 1880s, there was a land war, first of all, waged where the land of Ireland was held by between five and 7,000 families. And there was a massive struggle

amongst ordinary Irish people to claim that land. And it led to both outrage and passive resistance mixed in different parts and different places. And that led to a growing sense of difference. So this is not just the idea of a different nationality. This is a lived experience, which is creating divide. And within that, Gladstone, leader of the Liberal Party, has said that his mission is to pacify Ireland.

And the way he sees that this can be done is to grant a sort of a home rule parliament. But not independence. I mean, that's the crucial thing. No one at this point is talking about independence. Well, there are people in Irish nationalism who wish for independence. They're the Irish Republican Brotherhood who are secretly arming, secretly drilling, founded in 1858, stage a rebellion in 1867. The great swathe of the population can see no way, even if they wish for independence, the British Empire is the most mighty empire in the world. It's

its power and its privilege and its prestige of both commerce and culture, as well as military might, it sits everywhere. And the idea that a group of Irish rebels are going to beat them seems ridiculous. So they settle. They settle for the idea of a Home Rule Parliament. And the idea is that a significant, no, I won't say significant, I will say a considerable amount of power will be devolved to a parliament in Dublin, which will ultimately owe its allegiance though to the Imperial Parliament in London. And there is no suggestion that Queen Victoria will not also be Queen of Ireland. And a huge issue in this is the people in the northeast of the, in particular in the northeast of the island,

but actually also scattered elsewhere in the island, who don't want that, often because they're Protestants, and they think, well that would just mean I'd be living under the sort of the tyranny of a Catholic Home-rule Parliament, and I don't want that and this is particularly associated with Ulster with the province of Ulster the total population in Ireland that the proportion of that is about 30% you're looking at 30% allegiance So that can include some middle-class Catholics, etc Who owe their allegiance to, or who are more

than comfortable with an empire. No sense that they are dismayed by the prospect. And that matters as well, I think, Dominic, in that it's not just that they fear papish rule because of spiritual or religious reasons. Belfast is a place apart. Belfast is the one part of Ireland that is truly industrialized. Belfast grew from 16,000 people in 1810 more or less to 350,000 by the early 1900s driven by the shipyards and the linen industries. It's the home of Titanic. Exactly. And it's all of that is really important to creating a different culture around Belfast. And that culture believes that it owes prosperity as well as religious freedom and other freedoms to the empire.

Yeah. And so in 1880, opposition from Unionists led or assisted by the Tory party in England, where Chamberlain played the orange card famously, this idea that we give support to Unionists, and it basically collapsed the Home Rule Bill in the 1880s. So it wasn't passed. It wasn't passed again in 1892, in the Home Rule Bill in the 1880s. So it wasn't passed. It wasn't passed again in 1892, in the 1890s when there was another effort, and then it looked like it was dormant until an upheaval in British politics between 1909 and 1911 transformed the

political landscape. Yeah, and we did a couple of episodes on this in the first series so people can go back and listen to it if they want all the complexities But effectively what you have is the liberal government want to give home rule But the unionists particularly in ulster don't want it They start to arm so you start to have paramilitary politics kind of the ulster volunteers and then you also have the irish volunteers arming who are in favor of home rule, so you have a sort of You know, there's a sense in which Irish politics is slipping towards armed confrontation, and then that is interrupted in 1914 by the shootings in Sarajevo and the outbreak of the First World War. Now the Home Rule Bill at this point has been passed, so Home Rule will be granted, that is the thought,

but the whole thing is basically frozen, isn't it, by the outbreak of the First World War. So it doesn't go away, it's just dormant. Is that right? Yes, it is. I think it's really important for us Dominic to stress the importation of arms through 1913 into 1914, the establishment of the Ulster Volunteer Force and the plans to establish provisional government for Ulster if it was insisted upon that there should be Home Rule granted to Ireland. That's a really important story in the militarisation of Ireland. And there are people in the British Army and indeed in the Tory party who are effectively colluding. Well, the great belief is that the leader of the Conservative party knew that these

arms were being imported and was saying that there is no level that I can imagine that Ulster Unionists will go to that I will not support them. And so that must destabilise Catholic faith in the neutrality of British institutions, of which the army would be the most obvious. And what it does as well is it inspires the importation of guns by the Irish Volunteer Force. So now you have a second militarised army on the island and the third one exists where there is a citizen army of socialists who have guns in Dublin as well. So who are also bent

on rebellion ultimately. I think we finished the last series by asking with saying thank God for the First World War. Basically, I paraphrase it can't be as bad as a stroke of luck. Yeah, war broke out in now that looks worse in hindsight because of because of the war lasting as long as it did and the industrial slaughter that ensued. But the crisis was so deep that it seemed intractable because you had Irish nationalists who would not accept anything other than the entire island under a home rule parliament and Irish Unionists saying, we're not going into a home rule parliament. We want nothing other than rule from Westminster. Yeah. And then so it appears to be dormant.

And then at Easter 1916, the conflict flares into life with the Easter Rising Which actually at the time is very quickly put down by British forces I mean a lot of Dublin is sort of reduced to rubble But the British are able to stamp it out and the British I guess get the impression. It's very annoying that this has happened It's a sort of it's a betrayal at the time when we're fighting the Germans on the Western Front. However It's a sort of it's a betrayal at the time when we're fighting the Germans on the Western Front. However, Hopefully it's not going to prove a massive deal and what turns the Easter Rising into such a big deal? I first of all think that everybody says it's the executions. Yeah, that turned everything So basically after the rising the people who were involved it was about a thousand went out on Easter Monday

By Easter Saturday by the time it ended there were were probably fifteen, sixteen hundred who had been on the streets. It was a really small minority of people who had struck during the war because it presented the opportunity, as they saw it, to rise and drag the people with it. So England's difficulty is Ireland's opportunity. Exactly. In the old saw. And that is not what happened, of course. And it was crushed within a very short space of time. And people said at the time that the rebels were mocked and abused on the streets

and that there was incredible resistance to what they'd done and just disgust, actually. I think that's overplayed. Yes, there was some of that, but there were also other people who were, you know, admired them for what they were doing. Yeah. So, I mean, it's commonly said, isn't it, at the Easter Rising, that at the time they're a minority and actually people are horrified by it. And the British think, well, it's not going to be that big a deal. It's annoying. It's a bit of a betrayal at the time of fighting the Germans on the Western Front. But of course, it does turn out to be a landmark moment. And so what changes? What makes it so iconic?

So it was, first of all, a minority and the scale of the minority is extraordinarily significant. It's about a thousand people went out on Easter Monday, maybe joined by a few hundred more as the week went along, but it's not a mass uprising. And I think when it comes down to it, there are a series of factors which change perceptions of people as to why people had reacted adversely to it in the city initially during the rising, although I do believe that that's somewhat overplayed and it hangs initially on the executions of the leaders. Now the leaders themselves, it should be said, expected to die on the week. They knew they were rising in time of war.

This was their opportunity. And this is the whole key to it being Easter. It's a sacrifice. And the word blood sacrifice is appended to this time and again. But so there are 187 people who rose court martial. The rest are put in pens around the place and are ultimately interned. Some in Ballykinnor in the north, but many went to Frangach in Wales and others went to places like Lewis Prison and Reading Jail and all of those. We'll talk about those, I think, a little bit later on. But of the 187 who are court-martialed, a number of them were sentenced to death. About 90 of them were given death sentences. As it turned out, 14 of them were executed in Kilmainham Jail, having been tried in secrecy without representation in a series of court

marches. But there was no doubt about guilt, to be fair. And the executions began on the morning of the 3rd of May when Patrick Pearce, Thomas Clarke and Thomas McDonagh were shot by firing squad in the stonebreakers yard of Kilmainham jail. They continued until the 12th of May. So 14 executions in that jail were strung out over 10 days. The last one to die was Sean McDiarmida and James Connolly. And James Connolly is a story that was really potent because Connolly was extremely ill and extremely injured. He was so bad he basically had to be tied to a chair so that he could be shot. His wife and his daughter, his daughter tells this story in heartbreaking detail later in the 60s of going in to see her father the night before he was shot

and her mother crying and him saying, oh, don't cry, you'll unman me. And it's one of these stories begin to come out afterwards, and they're potent ones in the story. So there were two more executions that matter. Thomas Kent down in Cork wasn't really involved in any rising. Cork was very quiet for a rebel county in 1916. Very little happened in Cork. But the other big one is Roger Casement.

Yeah. So Roger Casement is featured in recent episodes. Yeah, the Congo. Did in the Congo, where he exposed extraordinary abuses by the Belgians in that area. Also went to the Potomayo region in the Amazon exposed more there was a knight of the realm had been born in Dublin, but was really associated with Ulster unionism was a Protestant who increasingly converted to nationalism to the point where Roger Casement went to Germany after the outbreak of war and tried to raise an Irish regiment from captured prisoners of war held by the Germans, tries to get the Germans to give guns. He doesn't manage to raise a regiment, but he gets the Germans

to give them guns, which come back on a submarine. But he's arrested when he arrived on the weekend of the Easter Rising. He's brought to the Tower of London. He's tried, convicted. There's an appeal. It doesn't wash. And there's a huge, huge fuss about this. So this, we're on into August now. The rising took place in April. It's into August. And he was hung a morning early in August in Pentonville prison by a hairdresser from Rochdale called John Ellis, who when he did the execution, there were people out in the road cheering and there were others praying and lamenting in Irish. An extraordinary scene. And we should talk about one person actually who wasn't executed

because he'll play a massive part in this story. And this is a man called Eamonn de Valera who any Irish listener will undoubtedly be familiar with. But some of our British and American listeners and whatnot may be not so much. So tell us a bit about de Valera. Well I start from the fact that it's probably my first memory in life was going to De Valera's funeral. He was left lying in state in 1975. I was five years of age in Dublin Castle. So he's about 150. Yeah, I'm aging quite gracefully.

He was there. The man who was in that box, though, was... We queued up for hours to get in and typically of my character I winched and cried the whole way through, but when I'd seen it I wanted to go back and have another look. But presumably a very long coffin because he's known as the long fella. Yeah, he's the long fella and is the man who he's always twinned with in history and reduced by history to caricature of both of them. Michael Collins is the big fella. So De Valera

is the long fella and Collins is the big fella. Quite, rest is history. So De Valera, I mean, he dominates Irish politics in the 20th century. And he also dominates the story in some ways. So tell us a bit about his character. The perception of him is this very chilly, sort of austere, clerical character. Is that fair? And that's right. And this image of him, by the time he was president of Ireland from the late 50s to the early 70s, he was almost blind. He was very old, doddery figure. And that's the one that television captured. So it's the one that has stuck in the public mind. But the De Valera, who was born in New York to an Irish woman and apparently a Spanish

father. So hence his name. So, but it must be said David McCullough's biography on this, on Eamon de Valera is really good and it throws question marks over quite exactly what the parentage is. Something by the way, which De Valera's opponents threw at him all his life. He was brought home when he was very young, treated to the old family home in Brewery in County Limerick, though his mother remained in New York. And Devalero was raised by Weiler family members. He was a really bright kid, got a scholarship to the elite Black Rock College in the city here, was skilled at mathematics,

discovered the Irish language and the caricature of this man who was presented in a very particular way. You can't see it from those periods. He was more than happy to go out drinking. He certainly went courting and down in, he went working in Rockwell College as a maths teacher at one stage and loved rugby. Absolutely loved rugby and got a trial for the Munster rugby team. He was trialled as fullback and the guy

who was picked ahead of him played for Ireland that year. So De Valera could easily have been an international rugby player. But very keen on maths and he comes up with all kinds of complicated mathematical schemes in due course, doesn't he? To try and square circles and so on. He had a very interesting mind and yes, but is also again kind of caricatured in that because he's portrayed as being someone who was austere, but he went out with a gun in 1916 and joined a rebellion.

But he does kind of lean into the stereotype, doesn't he, himself? So there's this famous phrase in that every instinct of mine would indicate that I was meant to be a died in the wall Tory or even a bishop rather than the leader of a revolution. Yes, he's again, we keep using the word complex, but he is a complex individual throughout all of this. And here's the thing, he's not executed. he could have been executed, but he is not executed because he's an American citizen. Yeah, again, that's what's said, that it's because he was an American citizen, but it is also the case. The British Prime Minister, Haskell, had been telling the military authorities in Ireland, stop killing these people, because already there are Catholic bishops calling

for the executions to stop, there are newspapers calling for it. So this takes us to the crucial next step, which is that there's clearly a change in atmosphere in the, I don't know, six months, 12 months after the Easter Rising. There is a sense of a change in the tone, in a gathering momentum towards nationalism. And just talk us through some of that. So this is to do with obviously the reaction to the executions since the rising but there are also books being published, it's a sporting story. How does the mood change in this period? The first way the mood changes is by the people who are sent to camps being brought home. So they're coming home, they're released

aereally from Fronga. The military intelligence, the police intelligence was useless. They lifted a whole load of people who had nothing to do with the rising, so they let them out sometimes after three, four weeks. But across that autumn and winter of 1916, as far as Christmas morning 1916, a ship carrying both soldiers from the Western Front and released Republican prisoners from English jails, sails into Dublin port, the dawn is breaking and there's four in particular who pushed their way up from Stearidge to First Class. There's Col O'Shaughnan and Terence

McSweeney, later Lord Mayor of Cork. Sean Tio Kelly, later President of Ireland, and Ernest Blyde, who is later in the First Cabinet and himself a Protestant. But up on the top as the the ship pulls in, is Tomás MacCartan, later also Lord Mayor of Cork, and he's playing the fiddle. And on the key to greet them as they come out of the murk are loads of people with tricolours because they're cheering another group of people who were home. Around that there's a film, Ireland the Nation, which kind of depicts the famine in 1798, which celebrates Irishness, that's been shown in cinemas around America.

There are books like the Sinn Fein Rebellion Handbook hugely popular on the all-Ireland hurling final of 1916 not played until 1917. The Tipperary hurlers who feature hugely in the story later on come up and they go to the GPO and they say prayers amidst the rubble so that's becoming an iconic site. There are collections for the funds of prisoners, which Michael Collins gets involved in, and we'll be talking about Collins later on. And then a year after the Rising, on the day that James Connolly, the anniversary of James Connolly's execution, a huge sign is put up onto the Liberty Hall, that home of trade

unionism in Ireland. The place which had the sign before the rising which said, we serve neither King nor Kaiser, now has a sign on it which says James Connolly murdered 12th of May 1916. It was only up for a very short period, possibly only an hour, but it was photographed as part of propaganda to be sold alongside the books and rosettes and flags that were now ubiquitous amongst people who had been swayed. And is there a sense that the nationalist movement is breaking new ground with propaganda? That it's out thinking the royalist British assumptions about propaganda? Well, you must remember that at this point, British interest in Ireland was so

minimal as to be exceptionally difficult to quantify because the war was raging in Europe. Britain was in an existential fight. The United Kingdom was really in turmoil. The mines were focused elsewhere. It wasn't focused on Ireland. Ireland never truly mattered in British politics after 1914. I'm not saying it didn't matter at all, but it was not central to the story in the way it had been in 1914 despite the rebellion. You can see that in newspapers, cabinet meetings and all these kinds of things. It's there, but it's never the biggest thing. Before we go to the break, let's

talk about two groups in particular. So one is, you've already mentioned the fact that not everybody is a nationalist. So about 30% of the population of Ireland would regard themselves as unionists, and these are predominantly but not exclusively Protestants. So while all this is going on, are they just watching in horror and indifference? What do they think? Well, it's even more complex than that because their leaders, including Edward Carson, Edward Carson is now in the British cabinet. And so the connections between the formation of coalition government in England allowed

for Ulster unionism to reach right into the cabinet table and the shift in power. Whereas previously the Liberals had depended on Irish nationalist votes, that is gone now. It's now unionists who sit in cabinet and in power. They still stand rejecting our home rule. Nothing has changed there. Indeed, the myth of Ulster continues to grow. Built incredibly in another event in 1916, the Battle of the Somme, at which the 36th Ulster Division suffered horrendous losses on the first day.

And if I went to see those trenches that they were fought in, I went to see the monument in Tiepfil, which was erected to the Ulster Unionists who were there. It's an incredibly well-kept, preserved, iconic part of that story. And it's fed in to the myth of Ulster and supported by Kipling and Elgar and all the voices of empire. And St Paul, that's another Irish blood sacrifice offered up in 1916. Yes, and again, it sits right at the heart of the mythology of unionism just as 1916.

I mean, it's so extraordinary, isn't it, that the two communities are both creating these mythic blood sacrifices in their imaginings. And it's in the language that's been used in all of this. You see, James Dillon stood in the House of Commons and talked about the blood that was going to flow in Ireland. He was the really potent member of the Irish parliamentary party, a moderate,

stood in the House of Commons and said, you're creating a revolution here. Yeah. Because you're killing these men. There is blood flowing out from under the cell doors. The British ambassador in America, Wright Holman says there are blood in the eyes of Irish Americans. So things have been fundamentally transformed by the 1916 rising, both north and south. And so the second group just before we go to the break are the British. What are the British thinking is going to be the medium to long term outcome?

What is their plan? So, Askwith is Prime Minister, but he is toppled and replaced by David Lloyd George, who is basically in coalition with the Conservatives and increasingly reliant upon the Conservatives, who we know are great friends of the Ulster Unionists. What does Lloyd George think is going to happen to Ireland? They're still planning home rule, aren't they? So in the middle of 1916, in the summer of 1916, before he became Prime Minister, David Lloyd George was Minister of Munitions and he attempted to introduce home rule. He was charged with asking about a fix in the crisis. Lloyd George went at it with, he celebrated as a cunning mind, but you could equally say he was a man so crooked he couldn't lie straight in bed.

Lloyd George told different things to both sides in promising Home Rule. He told Carson that Home Rule, he's the head of the Unionists, that well, listen, we'll give a separate parliament for the six counties and you can permanently stay out of Home Rule, the rest of Ireland can get their 26 counties. But he told John Redmond, the leader of the Irish Moderates, that, well, no, listen, we're going to keep the North out but only for a while. He kind of went between the two things but he couldn't square the language to get it through. So that fell apart. The Devil Eras mastery of maths. But by the time you get to 1917, there is no plan.

Right. There is no sense of what can be done here. There's the idea that we'll put in Home Rule and we might get a partition, a settlement, but how that's going to be delivered to Irish nationalists who might consider a temporary exclusion for Ulster, but not a permanent one. And Ulster unions were saying, well, we don't want Home Rule at all, but if we must do something, it's permanent. So Paul, you mentioned John Redmond, who is the leader of the moderate nationalists, the party that has been campaigning for Home Rule, supportive of Home Rule. But lurking in the

background all along, there is another party, another organisation that we haven't mentioned yet, but will be playing a huge part in the story. And that is a party called Sinn Fein in English, ourselves alone. And I think we should take a break now and when we come back, we will look at the role played by Sinn Fein in this story. No Frills delivers. Get groceries delivered to your door from No Frills with PC Express. Shop online and get $15 in PC optimum No Frills with PC Express. Shop online and get $15 in PC Optimum Points on your first five orders. Shop now at NoFrails.ca. Hello to our lovely Rezzes Entertainment listeners. This is me, Marina Hyde. And me, Richard Osmond. Hello, everybody.

Now our two-part deep dive into the chaotic production of Jaws, the first blockbuster has been a smash hit, bit like the film itself. And that has been a huge hit with our club members. Yeah, the response has been incredible. Thank you all so much. Deep dive is an unfortunate thing to say in relation to Jaws, but I know what you mean.

It's great to be able to do these deep dives into the entertainment stories that are off the beaten track. We'd have to do topical stuff. We can tell like amazing stories about amazing movies, amazing albums, amazing characters, amazing stories from the past of showbiz and entertainment. There's so many history really. Yeah, it's like the rest of history, but you know, you get to talk about Noel Edmonds. Okay, so here is the thing. Just like Universal, who were desperate to get their money back

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We're going to need a bigger podcast. Join the Rest is Entertainment Club today by visiting therestisentertainment.com. We'll see you there. Hello, welcome back to The Rest is History and the clock is ticking on British rule in Ireland. And Paul, we mentioned Féin just before the break. So tell us about Sinn Féin. So Sinn Féin is described in the commission of inquiry to the rebellion as being the driving force behind the rebellion of

1960 and it had nothing to do with it in the sense of nothing practical, but it had an impact on the ideas that were swirling around Irish society from the early 1900s onwards. And those ideas coalesced particularly around an individual called Arthur Griffith, who is one of the most important people in this whole story. So Griffith was a man who went to national school, but never went to secondary school really, and did his learning beside us here in the National Library of Ireland. He, like so many others, so many other revolutionaries in so many other countries, had work as a printer.

So he went into that world of books and of newspapers and became a journalist. He went to live in South Africa for a while and then when he came back, he founded new newspapers, which he kind of shared this idea of Irish nationality, Irish nationalism, and this idea that little countries around the world, he wrote a lot about other countries. And in particular, Hungary, because he has this idea that basically the United Kingdom can become an Austro-Hungarian dual monarchy where King George or whoever is the King in Ireland but Ireland has its own separate parliament. And this is just to make sure things are particularly complicated. It makes the fact that Sinn Féin is not a Republican party until 1917 when it changes its particular policies until the autumn of 1917. It did wish for independence though and huge power with the figurehead

of the monarch. But the notion that Sinn Féin began as a monarchist party is one of my favourite Irish history facts. It is a slight reduction, but I take the point, though. In Ireland, Griffith's notion of nationality was that he was a geographic determinist, as Michael Affan has said, so that irrespective of background or religion, if you were born in the Ireland, you're Irish. That's how he saw it. And that's a tradition of Irish identity that again goes back to the Napoleonic period, the Revolutionary period. The thing with Griffith is that Griffith was actually a member of the

Irish Republican Brotherhood, though he kind of drifted away from that, not because he was against the use of arms, but because he didn't think it was possible for the Irish Republicans to go in armed rebellion and win. And he was only interested in winning. He was a pragmatic man. He pushed ideas around industrialization and forestation and the production of Irish goods against those things. So he wanted to build up a movement that was based on this. He's not a Tariffs fan, is he? He was, funnily enough, a Tariffs fan, very much of the moment. He was involved in the gun running for the Irish volunteers.

So that shows you again, even though he didn't fight in the rising, he was not against revolutionary nationalism. His newspaper was suppressed during World War I. So he did something that was, I think, a piece of genius. He set up a new newspaper called Scissors and Paste. And there are copies of Scissors and Paste in the National Library and out in UCD. But what they are is, what he did was he took cuttings from other newspapers that had got by the censor and put them into a newspaper called Scissors and Paste and made his journalism out of stories that had already been published.

To get around that didn't really work for too long and that too was suppressed. But the ideas that he had propagated over the first 16, 17 years of the 20th century were wrapped around ideas of Irish independence to the extent that the name Sinn Féin was applied to a rebellion of which they were not involved as a constituent organization. So in a sense the British and the authorities they haven't exactly invented the idea of Sinn Fein but they've changed Sinn Fein because they've turned it into something that it wasn't which is this sort of incredibly potent underground revolutionary organization. You see British politicians and

newspapers talking about the dangers of Sinn Fein and their Sinn Fein murder gang and whatnot all the time. So they've kind of created this chimera, I guess. And you see this as the people who were in the internment camps. They came up with plans in those camps. It was quite a remarkable thing to put people together who didn't know each other particularly well. Because the prison camps are described as a university. Exactly, the University of the Revolution. And they come home. And through 1917, as Sinn Féin begin to organise again,

as people come home, they begin to do things that are not just about independence. So they do practical things. They don't just make speeches and spout. They do things like they say, OK, we're going to boycott people who support this government. We're gonna boycott the Crown Forces. We're gonna boycott the police, number one. Number two, we're gonna go involved in land agitation.

So we're going to argue that the remaining land that is held by landowners that hasn't been distributed amongst tenant farmers must now be given out. Number three, they do into food agitation. Food agitation is important because of, of course, it's wartime and there's price issues and there's scarcity issues and someone like Dermot Flynn for example, common deo, Sinn Féin director of food, he comes and he gets 34 pigs that are about to be exported from Dublin Port, he takes them away, they're slaughtered and they're dispersed amongst the population. So that's an example I think think, of popular engagement.

And you recognize this from revolutionary organizations around the world. This is not, these are things that revolutionary organizations do. It's a wider story made real here. But there is a strong sense that Sinn Féin are kind of leading the way in this, that Irish nationalists are kind of inventing a new kind of revolutionary agitation. And this really is said about the guerrilla war which comes, which we'll talk about I think in the next episode and the one afterwards. But for the moment, it's about Sinn Féin now beginning to compete in parliamentary politics. It puts up candidates. And they are obviously opposed to being a part of the Westminster parliament, but they are prepared to play the Westminster game to that degree that they are happy to stand

candidates in by-elections, for instance. They will stand candidates in by-elections, but they will not take their seats in the House of Commons. So it begins in February 1917 when Count Plunkett, the father of an executed 1916 leader, wins a by-election in Roscommon. And it has to be said there's a surprising number of counts and countesses involved in this story. Yeah, papal counts in this case.

And then the South Longford by-election, that's in May, that's another Sinn Fein triumph and it's a key moment because it brings us to the other big character of this story who's very involved in that campaign, who is Michael Collins. So he's not standing in that election, but he's behind the scenes. He's putting a lot of the strings, isn't he? And tell us a little bit about Collins, because he's such a massive character. So just as De Valera is reduced in history to this, as you say, the long fella. So Michael Collins is seen as this gun blazing rebel who just appears young and handsome, died at 33.

Later, you'll come across that story in the Civil War. He was a man who was fated in society. He was really handsome, individual. He's called the big fella, isn't it? Because it's expressive of his charisma rather than his size. He's not particularly large. It's personality and charisma and that this sense of... Now, he divided opinion because there were people who found him

brusque and overbearing as well as people who swore absolute allegiance to him. But Collins is much more than a gunman. In fact, Collins was a military organ organizer and had a brilliant brain for detail and organization, which he kind of flourished in London because he emigrated to London as a teenager. He's from Cork originally, can't you say? Yes, he's from Cork. He's from Cork and he went to London, worked in the post office and then... He loves post offices, doesn't he?

He does. He then goes to the GPO in Dublin. He ends up in a different type of post office. He does wrestling and hurling on Clapham Common, apparently. He was secretary to a GAA club, a hurling club over there. He played for London, he played in the competitions over there, but it was in London that he joined the Irish Republican Brotherhood. He got into this emigrate world of people who were unreconciled to the Crown and he was slowly radicalized,

or rather quickly radicalized in fairness, and he came back from London to fight in the Rising in 1916 just before it. He was interned initially, but he was a nobody in the Rising. He'd been in the GPO, but he wasn't a well-known figure. But there's a leadership gap in the end of 1916 and 1917. De Valera and other ones of the significant leaders of the 1916 Rising who hadn't been killed are in jail. And Collins emerges as this figure who gets a job setting up Republican prisoners' funds around the place and he becomes a permanent organizer who helps build Sinn Fein through

1917 to run in the by-elections and it is his push of Joe McGuinness. Joe McGuinness is one of seven children who'd spent time in America, who'd set up a Gaelic League Irish language branch around Longford. He'd worked in the Draper shops in Camden Street, not too far from us here. He'd fought in the Easter Rising in the Four Courts, where I think you're going to go later in this series. That's where he was based under Ned Daly there. And he was sent to Lewis Prison. And it was from Lewis Prison that he was elected as the MP for South Longford in May 1917. And he won by apparently 37 votes.

And it was Collins who pushed that he run in the first place against the wishes of other people who thought it was ridiculous and that he could not win. It was Collins who drove the campaign, who brought men in cars down to Longford to campaign for him. And he stayed all the time in the Greville Arms Hotel, a great arms hotel in the middle of Granard and it was there where he met Kitty Kiernan who he ended up engaged to. Julia Roberts. Julia Roberts. So, so.

You have to say it. Yeah, I mean, everyone was thinking. So, you talked about a leadership gap and Collins is sort of emerging, he's rising up the ladder. But of course, the person who does become the president of Sinn Fein is the person who ends up being his rival, which is Eamonn de Valera. How is it that de Valera rather than Griffiths becomes the president of Sinn Fein at the end of 1917?

So there's distrust of Griffith. Despite his years in the movement, he had left the IRB and he was still a monarchist in early 1917 in the sense he was willing to accept that. So you have a man who didn't fight in 1916 and still gave allegiance to monarchy. And then you have Eamon de Valera, the most powerful surviving leader of that rebellion, who comes back from jail in the summer of 1917. De Valera and Griffith meet and they have a conversation and it's agreed that De Valera will be president and Griffith will be his vice president. And Griffith serves faithfully the cause after that point. And Paul said all this parliamentarian shenanigans, but what about the military aspect to this,

or I should probably say the paramilitary aspect to this? So in October 1917, when there was an Ardèche, or kind of an annual conference of Sinn Féin, at which Éamon de Valera was elected as president. And it was agreed that the policy of Sinn Féin would be to establish, and I quote, an independent Irish Republic. And de Valera formulated a kind of a unanimously accepted compromise around the nature of what that Republic would be when it was said Sinn Féin aims at securing the international recognition of Ireland

as an independent Irish republic. Having achieved that status, the Irish people may by referendum choose their own form of government. So that's what pulled everyone together. And that's the point at which the movement coalesced from that point onwards. And then there were still by-elections being won. But at precisely the same weekend there was a volunteer convention around the Ardèche of Sinn Féin. So that is to say the Irish volunteers, the military wing is beginning to maneuver again. Many of those who've

been interned after the Rising and who are now home get involved in the founding of volunteer companies militarizing around the company. On top of that, the Irish Republican Brotherhood had not gone away. They had formed with Collins largely as their head, with Richard Mulcahy, who was also involved in the 1916 Rising and the man whose poem we read earlier, Thomas Ash, at its core. And they have gone around from earlier in 1917 1917 advertising for, or organizing, sorry, for the volunteers. And it's in this point, in the summer of 1917, that Thomas Ash was

arrested for a seditious speech, that he was put in Mount Joy jail ultimately, and went on hunger strike to demand essentially prisoner of war status. And it was declined to him. And you said you would tell Tom what happened next, so what happened next? So Thomas Sash was, he's held for just under a month and he goes on hunger strike and it's this incredibly powerful moment, the idea of sort of sacrificing yourself for the cause. And he's on hunger strike for just two or three days and then they force feed him and force feeding is a, you know, it's an incredibly brutal and evasive process and basically he dies during the course of being

force fed. It's, you know, he's weakened, he's sick, he's starving and his death becomes this great sacrifice for the cause and then his funeral becomes a huge deal doesn't it? I mean massive turnout at his funeral of these volunteers of people who've joined the cause and the famous, maybe you read it Paul, the famous oration that is given by Michael Collins after shots are wrung out over the grave. Because it's not a long oration is it? It's one of those where Collins says after the volley of shots nothing additional remains to be said that volley which we have just heard is

the only speech which it is proper to make above the grave of a dead Fenian. Yeah and so one of these kind of symbolic moments isn't it and I do think there's a sense at this point so we're in the second half of 1917 that the momentum has shifted beyond recovery, that effectively the revolutionaries have seized control of the narrative. I think they are seizing rather than seized. I don't think the momentum is entirely with them yet. I think there is a large wind in their sails and Dublin Castle is clear.

The leading officials are clear on this. The Thomas Ash funeral is massive. Now, it's probably one of the most most notorious things in history that the Irish love a good funeral in any point. But the political funerals in Ireland are something else entirely. And what this meant on the day was a huge organisation of volunteer strength. They basically took over the middle of Dublin, took over the middle of the city and marched the coffin

from beside where you're staying alongside Dublin Castle from City Hall, which they got from the city to run, lay him in state. Huge crowds come to see his body lying in state. He is then walked through the city behind a cortege with guns everywhere. There's guns being fired in the city again over his body and Dublin Castle are clear This is a huge moment and swells of people begin to join the volunteers now But poor could I also ask what also happens famously in 1917 is the Russian Revolution? Yeah, and Dublin Castle so will be the intelligence authorities there will start to frame what is happening in Irish nationalist circles as

Informed by Bolshevism and is that serving to kind of raise alarm bells back in London? Where of course the government is still focused on winning the war it really isn't Tom There's things being thrown left and right and it's the words are there but what's happening in Ireland is seen to be manageable Compared to what's happening on the Western front. Everything is suborn to the war and everything, by the way, has been suborn to get America into the war and on their side. So Irish policy is almost framed with the idea of not upsetting Irish America too much to the point that it will that will keep the President Wilson of America out of the war. So America much more important than Russia in the British. Enormously.

So let's come to a massive, a game changing moment, a real watershed in this story. So Britain had introduced conscription in 1916 and it was an issue that had effectively split the liberal movement, the liberal party. A lot of liberals, kind of Asquithian liberals, were horrified by the idea of conscription. They thought, you know, it's a complete attack on civil liberties and whatnot. But it had been introduced in Britain, but not in Ireland, because they recognized that in Ireland it would be incendiary to force people to fight for king and country. And there'd been lots of talk about it. And then in 1918, the picture

completely changes. and here we go back to the importance of the First World War. The Germans launch their last throw, Ludendorff's last throw, the spring offensive, they look like they're going to get through all the way to Paris. It looks like the war is going to be lost for the Allies. And at that point, the Tories in particular in Britain say to Lloyd George, come on mate, this is ridiculous that we're not conscripting men in Ireland when we're already doing it in Britain. We have to do it in Ireland as well because it just looks terrible to people in Britain that we're not doing it. And of course as we know this is an absolute own goal.

I mean, it's like Lloyd George is taking a rifle and aiming it at his foot. The RSG secretary famously says you might as well recruit Germans. So why is it so so conscription is is a colossal disaster isn't it for the cause of moderate nationalism as well as unionism I guess. It is a disaster on every front for people who wish for the union to be maintained, for the government. It was a humiliating moment for the government. It was a humiliating moment for the government. It was a disaster for the Irish parliamentary party, moderate nationalism, which was already under threat from Sinn Fein,

but was destroyed by what happens next. And what happened next was, first of all, the Irish parliamentary party walked out of the House of Commons where it had still had its seats led by John Dylan. John Rendon at this stage was dead. He had died earlier in 1918. His brother Willie, also an MP, had died fighting for the British army. So again, so this is a man whose life ended coming so close to the ultimate success that had eluded Parnell, eluded Daniel O'Connell. And this was a man who was on the cusp when

the war started of absolute success. Now the war is going on. He dies in pain. His brother is dead and now his party is taken over by John Dylan, leader of the party in Dublin and he walks out of the House of Commons. Following the example of Sinn Féin. Yeah, so the Irish parliamentary party, well the Irish parliamentary party had successfully resisted the implementation of conscription in Ireland before then. But everything that the Irish parliamentary party had stood for was gone in that moment. They come home and they're now on a platform in meetings with Sinn Féin, who they

would have previously looked on as corner boys and a rabble to some extent. And Catholic bishops are there as well. So this is the respectability of the Catholic Church. And Tom, you've made the point about how central religion was to society a hundred years ago, much more so than now, for Catholic bishops to be sharing with Republicans, some of whom had previously been excommunicated from the church and with moderate nationalism. And Sinn Féin is saying, we told you so.

Yeah. And they have the power, they run now and the conscription, they managed to create a conscription where it should be said, by the way, that the Labour movement and the Labour party was huge in this as well, because of the general strikes that were run during this period, which basically showed the government that this wasn't going to be workable. You were going to need to bring 100,000 soldiers here to get people to conscript. I mean just to kind of stick up for Lloyd George. I mean he and you've been saying this throughout

that the focus of the British government is on the Western Front and Lloyd George is staring down the barrel of defeat. So again he must be thinking you know I've got to throw everything at this and he actually compares himself to Lincoln, doesn't he? But he's also, the reason why George is doing this is not just because of the military situation, it's because of his own political situation. He relies on conservative support and the Conservatives effectively are saying to him, if you don't do this, we'll withdraw support because we think it's a matter of principle that Ireland is treated the same as Britain.

He was not someone who had an instinctive connection or sympathy with the Irish cause in any shape or form. He didn't really see why Ireland should be different than Wales. Well this is actually a really interesting thing with Lloyd George. His Welshness actually works against, because he says come on we're cults too and we have our own differences with the English so why can't you be just like us? Yes and he was a part of that strain also of English society or Welsh society or British society, which was anti-Catholic.

He had kind of averged, depending on who you were talking to, in that area between distaste and distrust, or blind hatred, depending on which way you go, not necessarily like George, but that community all told. We're approaching the end of the episode. What's obviously happened is the conscription crisis has turbocharged, has accelerated a process that was already underway, which is radicalization. So you get a massive influx, don't you, into people signing pledges and petitions, they're joining Sinn Fein, young men, well we will talk about this in the next episode, what kind of people are joining the paramilitary groups.

Young men are joining the Irish volunteers. And the government's really lost control of the story. What do, so you're the Irish man and woman in the street, if we can massively simplify and generalize, what do they think at this stage? Is it possible to say or is there a sort of general picture? How much does the propaganda matter in changing their outlook? I think the propaganda does matter because you are basically now faced with a movement which is placing a very straightforward proposition in front of a population. And it is this,

we are either patriots fighting the regime or we are complicit in its tyranny. And there's a new mass movement now, which is kind of a populist national movement. It's changed from that kind of ginger groups of Republicans or radicals or feminists or socialists. And it's got broad ideas of patriotism now, which are hung always on kind of ideas of the ballads that are being sung or the flags that are being flown or a broad suede of program where I look at the agrarian program. It wasn't just that Ireland were going to redistribute large farms to the people who tend and farm with them or the tenant farmers would get their farms made larger.

People who are land laborers were going to be given farms as well. I mean, they basically planned that we were going to expand the landmass of the island so much were they were they going to do. But that's what you do, isn't it? When you're trying to win any argument and that's what they went for. And so the British government feel that they're facing a hydra. And when faced with a hydra, the temptation is to try and cut off the heads. And so this is what they do in the summer of 1918,

when essentially they manufacture a plot that comes to be known as the German plot. The idea that the heads, basically all the people they want to intern are complicit with the Germans, and it's done on very, very sketchy information, but it's enough for them to start arresting people that they want to have in prison rather than out on the streets. The information is so sketchy that it's enough for them to start arresting people that they want to have in prison rather than out on the streets. The information is so sketchy that it's based on that members of the British cabinet around it are kind of going, they're utterly disbelieving of it.

But but Lloyd George is humiliated and they're bent on making a statement. So it hangs around the fact that an Irishman who had been in the British Army had been captured, had been a POW in Germany, tried to be recruited to Casemans cause to come back over here. He was found in a boat off County Clare on his own. So wild rumours then begin to spread of a German plot and 73 leaders of Sinn Fein were arrested, including De Valera and Griffiths. But Michael Collins knew what was going to happen. And so did Richard Mulcahy because they already had spies deep within the British system, both in Dublin Castle and in its military forces, and they were able to tip people off. Now, some of the Sinn Fein leaders were more than happy to be arrested because, of course, there is an enormous value in the publicity of it,

but Collins and Mulcahy slipped away. And Dublin Castle don't even have photographs of Collins, so they don't know what he looks like. But of course they don't have photographs of, they have very few photographs. This is an age when you don't even have photographs of Collins, so they don't know what he looks like. But of course they don't have photographs of, they have very few photographs. This is an age when you don't have many photographs of people. But you can, the strategy can either be you put yourself centre and you take your martyrdom, you go to prison, or you slip into the shadows and you preserve your mystique as the master

of spies, which is what Collins does. And the amazing thing about this is in the report, the Commission of Investigation into the rising of 1916, the report was, it's a fantastic document which people can find online at 16 pages and must be read because it's so bizarre. The Lord Lieutenant is excused of all blame. Everything is placed on Dublin Castle's Chief Secretary, Augustin Burrell, and its undersecretary, Matthew Natan. And they say there was the police and the military were brilliant. They done nothing wrong.

They told everything what happened on that. Their intelligence was really good. And time and time again, it's revealed the opposite is the case. It was proven to be so when it came to internment, it was proven to be so again in the German plot. So this is a state which is really creaking. So at this point, just before we move into the election at the end of 1918, at this point do you think the game is actually already up for the British? Do you think there's

any way back for them? There is no doubt that there has to be a Home Rule Parliament of some description. The question is how much power that parliament is going to get and is it going to take war or the giving of dominion status, for example, which doesn't seem to be on the agenda. And all the while, all the while, there is the problem of Ulster, which has not been resolved by anybody, not by the British and not by Irish nationalists who don't have a plan. Right. So November 1918, the war ends, the German offensive has petered out, the Germans have collapsed, there are great celebrations, the war is over, and a month later on the 13th of December 1918, at last the United Kingdom goes to the polls

and effectively you've got two separate elections going on, one in Great Britain and one in Ireland. And this is a landmark election for all kinds of reasons. All men over the age of 21 can now vote, all the women over the age of 30. So the electorate in Ireland has what? More than doubled. It's trebled, I think, Tom. Dominic has trebled from 700,000 to almost 2 million. And something like seven out of 10 people are voting for the first time. For the first time. So it's impossible to predict how they'll vote. And the big winners of this are Sinn Fein and their manifesto is, it's a brilliant manifesto

because it's simultaneously vague but also very clear because they have basically three big goals, don't they? Talk us through their goals. So their three big goals are to establish an independent Focus through their goals. So there are three big goals are to establish an independent Irish Republic. And there was a brilliant phrase after this, which is hugely important for what happens next in the War of Independence, which we'll be talking about in the next episode. It says we will establish an independent Irish Republic by any and every means available to render impotent the power of England to hold Ireland in subjection by military force or otherwise. That's the phrase that is used to legitimize a war of independence. It says it has the support of

the public as given by the polls on it. So its first plan is to establish an independent Irish Republic. Its second plan is to withdraw from the House of Commons. So they think they're going to win 80 seats. There's a hundred odd seats in Ireland. They think they're going to win 80 seats in this election. And they say, we're not going. We're going to establish our own parliament here. And the third point is hugely important. And this is massive in the papers at the time. And I think it's been lost a little bit in it is the importance of the Paris Peace Conference. The Paris Peace Conference, Sinn Fein said, we are going to Paris. Wilson has his 14 points. You've just fought a war for little Belgium.

Yeah. You've talked about the rights of small nations. So we're a small nation. We're a small country. We're going to Paris. We're going to get a seat in Paris and we're going to use our American leverage because of the power and potency of the Irish American lobby to get Wilson to support us to get a seat at that table and we will be independent.

Right so the results Sinn Fein win 73 seats the Unionists win 26 and what's left of the moderates the Irish Parliamentary Party they're reduced to just six seats so I mean this is really a revolution in Irish politics isn't it? It's enormous and it's complete wipeout. But the wipeout was on the way beforehand. When Sinn Fein predicted 80 seats it wasn't blind in what they were doing. This was an aging party whose time was done. Everything the Irish parliamentary party had fought for. And won, they'd won Home Rule, they just hadn't got it implemented. They had said that they had stopped conscription coming in for long periods,

but Redmond had called for recruitment, so they got no good out of that at all. They said that they had argued that the prisoners should be released early from prison in England, but they weren't the prisoners themselves. They were standing against the prisoners now and loads of them just retired. And in large swathes of the country, they had not been opposed in elections for 40 years. So they didn't have a machine to fight back against Sinn Fein. So it's a complete changing of the guard. I mean, one might almost say a revolution. And I suppose for people in Ireland, there's the question of where next,

how is the state going to be governed, what's the future and in Britain there's the prospect that even as the guns, the crumping of the guns are falling silent on the Western Front, storm clouds of war may be gathering over Ireland and over the United Kingdom. So if people want to find out what happens next, they could join our own revolutionary brotherhood, the Rest His History Club, and as Paul undoubtedly knows, you can do that at therestishistory.com. But we'll be back with Paul for the next installment of this thrilling story with the Irish War of Independence. Goodbye. Goodbye.

Goodbye. Goodbye. Goodbye. Hey everyone, here's that Jaws clip that we mentioned during the break. You can listen to the whole episode for free on therestisentertainment.com. There's no cast at this point as well. The cast is so last minute for this. It was nine days before principal photography was due to start. Two of the three main parts, Quint and Hooper, still hadn't been cast nine days before. So everyone's ready. Everyone's ready to go. You know, the whole unit. Who were eventually played by Robert Shaw and Richard Rophers in the movie. And those

two have a massive feud. There were so many other different people that they considered. Now Brody, who was actually played by Roy Scheider, it's a brilliant performance. He's so sort of, it's an amazing performance. So put upon and like every man. Yeah. I mean, the other people considered were Paul Newman, Charlton Heston, Robert DeVille, Gene Hatman. Like definitely the last two of those could have done it. Yeah. So I think Charlton Heston was desperate to be in it. And Spielberg, again, you know

what, he was smart right from the beginning, Spielberg. He said, think about Charlton Heston, he's too big a star. Why is he too big? Because you know Charlton Heston always wins. That's the problem. You know Charlton Heston is going to defeat the shark. You don't know what Roy Scheider is going to do. You just don't know. So it's really important. Roy Scheider has the look of a man who could be eaten. Definitely be eaten. Who could definitely be eaten. You'd be like, yeah, I can see it.

I don't know if his agent is going to be saying he's going to be in it, but he can't be eaten. He could definitely be eaten. Charlton Heston eats sharks. Charlton Heston eats sharks. Again, another great title for the book. Roy Scheider actually heard Steven Spielberg talking about it at a party and Steven Spielberg was saying he'd had this idea for how he could get the shark to jump onto a boat.

I thought, I'd like to be in that movie. That sounds good. I like this kid. And he said, I would like to be in this movie. Anyway. Charlton Heston, by the way, vowed never to work with Spielberg after that. Hi everybody. You're still here.

Right at the end of the episode, I'm very impressed by your commitment. But listen, I have a question for you. I want to ask you something in confidence. Do you sometimes listen to the adverts on these episodes? And do you sometimes think, do you know what? I wish that the listeners to this podcast, I wish they were listening to an advert about my brand rather than the other stuff that Tom and Dominic are promoting on here. If you have thought that, there is of course any one way to find out what that would be like. You can disrupt the procession of adverts. You could be the next HSBC premiere or the many other tremendous companies that have advertised on the rest is history. And you could put your brand

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