The Rest Is History - 613. Nelson: Glory at Trafalgar (Part 6)

Episode Date: October 30, 2025

How did the British fleet prepare for war, on the morning of the Battle of Trafalgar? With the flags of both fleets flying and both Nelson and the French admiral Villeneuve glittering in their uniforms, how did the two fleets finally collide? Amidst the rivers of blood, the blast of canons, the flying splinters, and the swirling smoke, how did Nelson’s ships and sailors fare? And, cornered by three enemy ships, what would be the fate of Nelson aboard his Victory…? Join Dominic and Tom as they reach the glorious, tragic climax of their epic voyage through the life and battles of Horatio Nelson, at the height of the Napoleonic Wars. _______ Start generating your own greener electricity for less, with £500 off Solar. Visit https://www.hivehome.com/history for more information. T&Cs apply* *Output and savings varies by season, electricity usage and system size. Paid-for surplus requires an eligible SEG tariff. Offer for new customers only. Ends 17th November. Learn more at https://www.uber.com/onourway _______ Twitter: @TheRestHistory @holland_tom @dcsandbrook Video Editor: Jack Meek Social Producer: Harry Balden Assistant Producer: Aaliyah Akude Producer: Tabby Syrett Senior Producer: Theo Young-Smith Exec Producer: Dom Johnson Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Thank you for listening to The Rest is History. For weekly bonus episodes, add free listening, early access to series and membership of our much-loved chat community, go to the rest is history.com and join the club. That is the rest is history.com. This episode is brought to you by Hive. You know, history is full of transformations. The Romans shifted from Republic to Empire. the Tudor's transformed monasteries into country houses. And do you know what? Hive has had one of its own. Everybody knows Hive for smart thermostats, but now they've evolved into something much greater. Solar panels that help you to power your home with clean energy. Heat pumps that pull warmth from thin air.

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at a fair price, while paying your people what they're worth too, so your business can stay unfazed. more at SAP.com slash uncertainty. The news spread quickly. Across the British fleet, the lookouts were pointing and crying out, and men were pounding up the ladders and pouring from the hatchways, cheering and shouting for all they were worth. There, 11 miles to the east, was the complete.

bind fleet. A jaw-dropping spectacle spread out across the horizon in the glow of the dawn. On the quarter-deck of the victory, a cloud seemed to pass from Horatio Nelson's face. He had barely slept, but he felt free of care. This was his moment. Every ship he had ever taken, Every voyage he had ever made had led to this hour. The victory spread her sails. Then Nelson ordered his signal lieutenant to hoist two messages. First came the order to form two divisions as planned. And then came the signal they had all been waiting for.

Prepare for battle. So begins the climactic chapter. of Adventures in Time, Nelson, Hero of the Seas, which Dominic, I'm sure you'd agree, must surely rank as the definitive life of this extraordinary man written, of course, by yourself. And it has been a very long voyage, has it not, from Burnham Thorpe, where we set out 11 episodes ago. But now we are reaching the glorious and tragic conclusion of this story. So would you like to set the scene for the listeners? I would, Tom. The date is the 21st of October, 1805, a Monday. It's 5 o'clock in the morning,

and off the southwestern coast of Spain, Nelson's fleet have finally caught up with their quarry, their combined fleet of France and Spain under Pierre Charles de Villeneuve and Federico Gravina. And listeners who have been on this journey all the way from Burnham-Thorpe will remember what is at stake. So for months, Nelson has been planning a war of annihilation. He intends to exploit the speed and firepower of the Royal Navy to sail right at the combined fleet in two assault columns, one led by his own ship, the victory, and the other by his deputy Admiral Collingwood in the Royal Sovereign. And his goal is to smash the enemy line into pieces and then to mop them up one by one. If he wins, Britain's command of the seas, Britain's naval mastery will be

confirmed for a generation. Britain will be definitively secure from invasion, and they can pursue a naval blockade strategy that will eventually bring Napoleon to his knees. But if he loses, then the combined fleet could regain control of the Mediterranean or could turn north, France and Spain could conceivably win control of the channel, and Napoleon's plans to invade Britain could be back on. So massive, massive stakes. And of course, Dominic, the stakes are personally very high for Nelson as well.

And it's so important to emphasize this because he is leading one of those two prongs of the attack in victory. And ages ago, when we previously did a series on Trafalgar, we called him a Christian Achilles. He's a man of deep Christian faith. but he does also have this kind of homeric quality, doesn't he? And I think there is something of Achilles in his determination to risk death because it will provide him with the opportunity for incredible glory, which isn't to say that he wants to die. He does not want to die.

We know from his letters to Emma that he was preparing, you know, if they win Trafalgar, he will lay down his command. He will live with Emma. They'll have children, all of that. But, like Achilles, he would rather die a hero than duck his chance for glory. And so this is why in the previous episode we described him preparing his coffin. And his journal on leaving England, he wrote, If it is God's good providence to cut short my days upon earth,

I bow with the greatest submission, relying that he will protect those so dear to me that I leave behind. And you could imagine had Achilles being Christian, that's how he might have put it. Yeah, there's a fatalism to Nelson, isn't there? which is obviously born of his years of experience in the Navy. He knows just how horrendous naval battles are. I mean, the sort of tempest of splinters and shot and screaming and blood. Well, he's been hit on the head, hasn't he, by a beam? He's had his arm chopped off.

You know, all kinds of things have gone on. His eyes gone. Exactly. But the sort of paradox is at the same time that he has this kind of fatalism, which will recur in this episode, there is a sense of absolute confidence in his ships and his men. You know, everything in his life, all the years of training, all the years of service, all the battles.

Everything has prepared him for this moment. And yes, he is only one man and a brilliant commander, but behind him is an unequalled military machine, the most lethal killing machine in the world. And one that is based on what he stands for at Trafalgar is the economic and industrial might and modernity of industrial Britain. Because of that, he knows that his. men are fitter, quicker, better trained, more adept than their French and Spanish opponents.

And indeed, his French and Spanish opponents know it themselves and have frankly and freely said so. So when he gives the command, this machine, you know, it's like terrible cliché, like a clockwork machine kind of springs into action. People are stowing away the hammocks, the last of the furniture. The surgeons are kind of getting out their instruments. If you've seen Master and Command of the film, there's a sort of moment. when they're beating to quarters and everyone rushing into action. Yeah. That's what this is like.

And there's kind of dread, isn't there? Because they know what it is to be in a battle. But also the excitement of people who have been kind of training all their lives for this moment. I mean, you can imagine the atmosphere is one of mingled. There must be a little bit of fear and dread, but also tremendous anticipation finally after all these months, after years of waiting. And confidence, I would guess. Yes, exactly. So let's go through the timeline. At 7.30 in the morning, Nelson signals to his frigate captains to come aboard the victory. The frigates are smaller ships, for those people are not massively familiar with the Royal Navy. Unlike us. Yes, we're tremendously familiar with our tremendous knowledge. Yes, exactly. Yeah, undoubtedly, in the Chatham High Street episode, did we not confuse a destroyer and a battleship? Is that not the great sin that we committed? A few listeners noted that. deliberate mistake and good on them. I like to keep them on their toes.

We were just trying to make it accessible, weren't we? I think that was what we were trying to do. For the non-naval people. Exactly. So anyway, Nelson signals to his frigate captains to come aboard a victory. He is going to need them to signal his orders. The chief frigate commander whom we met in the previous episode bringing the news of Villeneuve's movements to Nelson at Merton is a guy called Henry Blackwood. And Henry Blackwood says to Nelson, why don't you come across to my frigate and command the fleet from there. Why risk your life at the head of the line? Why not be at a safe distance, like a kind of First World War commander, and direct the fleet from there? And a lot of commanders did do this kind of thing. Not all did, but it was not

totally unknown. And Nelson said, no way. And Blackwood must have known Nelson would say no way. You know, Nelson would be bound to put himself in harm's way from the front. But it's a sign of just how dangerous they know Nelson's plan is to sail directly at the enemy without giving yourself the opportunity to fire first. But that's precisely why Nelson has to do it, because it is so dangerous. He cannot possibly ask his men to throw themselves into the jaws of hell without leading them there himself. And in fact, you know, he wants to be visible. This is what has always done. Nelson loves a bit of bling. So he's there in all his paraphernalia. He's got all those kind of the stars of knighthood sewn onto his jacket, epaulets gleaming, and actually

some of his men on board the ship say, yeah, I mean, brilliant that you're here, but why don't you just wear a slightly less showy coat? But he's not going to do that. He wants to draw attention to himself. I guess that what makes this even more risky for Nelson personally is that he, like all the other officers on board the ship, are not allowed to duck. The semen can duck, but officers cannot. No matter how many sharpshooters, no matter how many grape shot. I mean, just insane courage. Yeah.

So he's got his nice coat on, and on they go. The gap is 11 miles and closing very slowly, but it's closing every minute. It's basically walking speed, isn't it? Yeah. So the combined fleet is sort of spread out on the horizon. It's a very faint breeze, so they are moving exactly in a very slow and deliberate and stately way. the kind of the drums beating as they kind of head across the waves. Nelson is surveying them through his telescope.

He can see that the combined fleet is basically sailing in slight disorder. It's not a terribly well-organized operation. So they're kind of ragged crescent and they're going from south to north. So about 12 ships from the front is the Villeneuve's flagship, the Bucentor. And then about six ships behind it or so is Gravina's flagship, the Santa. to Anna, and then there's another 15 French or Spanish ships. Now, some of these ships are absolute Leviathans, as we'll discuss, but Nelson is confident. You know, we have the firepower and the skill to beat them.

Eight o'clock, the Victories Cook serves breakfast. A few men are too nervous to eat it, but most of them are absolutely ravenous. A sailor said afterwards they felt like lions anxious to be at it, which gives you a sense of the mood. And they're given wine, aren't they, not grog? Yes, they're given wine. Would you have a glass of wine before going to battle? I suppose you would. Yeah, I certainly would.

So, yes, there's a real sense of excitement. So, lieutenants on the Ajax said all seemed deeply anxious to come to close quarters with the enemy. And most of what we know about the mood and the fleet comes from officers, obviously, because they tend to be more literate and they wrote letters and things. So you have a sense of them across the fleet, people kneeling to say their last prayers, or they give keepsakes to their friends, or they write farewell notes. to their families, and often some of these notes, I have to say, are incredibly moving. So there's a young midshipman on the Royal Sovereign, and Colleenwood's flagship called John Aikenhead, who wrote to his mum and dad,

should I, my dear parents, fall in defence of my king, let that thought console you. I feel not the least dread on my spirits. Oh, my parents, sisters, brother, day grandfather, grandmother and aunt, believe me ever yours. And here's another story. This is a teenage midshipman called Robert Smith on the victory on Nelson's flagship, who did not survive. the battle. He wrote to what he called his dear and honored parents. He says, I can't wait to face the enemy of my country. And he says, if the worst happens to me, then you, dearest of mothers, consider that your affectionate son could not die in a more glorious cause. And actually, the one

that I always think is really moving is Henry Black with a frigate captain. He wrote to his wife, Adieu, my dearest wife, your Henry will not disgrace his name. And if he dies, his last breath will be devoted to the dearest of dear wives. Take care of my boy. Make him a better man than his father. Yeah, very moving. So, I mean, all of them have loved ones on their mind. And of course, Nelson also has loved ones on his mind. Yes. So he's in his great cabin, isn't he? Which, if you go to Portsmouth, you can obviously see it. It's the highlight of going to the victory. And he must, the furniture has been taken out. So he must have been sitting on the floor, effectively, with his left hand.

Yeah, and as in the Battle of Copenhagen, his portraits of Emma have been taken down, and this time as well he has a portrait of Horatia. And we know they are absolutely uppermost in his thoughts as the victory glides ever so slowly towards the battle line. So he writes one last prayer, doesn't he, Tom? I'm sure you would love to read that. Oh, I would. I mean, this is so moving. May the great God whom I worship grant to my country and for the benefit of Europe in general a great and glorious victory.

and may no misconduct in anyone tarnish it, and may humanity after victory be the predominant feature in the British fleet. For myself individually, I commit my life to him that made me, and may his blessing light upon my endeavours for serving my country faithfully. To him I resign myself and the just cause, which is entrusted to me to defend. Amen, amen, amen. And then, of course, Emma and Horatia. and we talked about this

in the episode we did about four months ago on Emma Hamilton that he writes a codicil to his will I leave Emma Lady Hamilton therefore a legacy to my king and country that they will give her an ample provision

to maintain her rank in life I also leave to the beneficence of my country my adopted daughter Horatia Nelson Thompson and I desire she will use in future the name of Nelson only These are the only favours I ask of my king and country at this moment when I am going to fight their battle. And how king and country respond to this request, we will see in next week's bonus when we look at what happened to Emma and Horatia after Trafalgar.

So if you're an Emma Hamilton fan like Tom, you will want to be a member of the Restis History Club. And you can, of course, join Tom in that crew at the rest of the rest of the history club. History.com. Or actually, if you're not a fan of M. Hamilton, because in which case you'll enjoy the bonus or the more. Yes, I guess so. So, it's now 10 o'clock in the morning. There are a few miles from their quarry and everything has been prepared.

The decks have been cleared. They have started watering the timbers to prevent against fire. The red-coated marines have gone to their posts on deck. The gun crews have gone to their stations. They have powder and cartridges and shot. And in his makeshift operating theory, which is called the sort of the surgeon's cockpit down in the bowels of the ship, the ship's Dr. William Beatty has laid out his scalples and his bandages and his bottles of vinegar and all of this kind of thing. And I'm sad to say we will be returning to that particular cockpit later in the episode. He will have been warming his sores, won't he?

Because that was something that Nelson insisted on having had his arm sorn off. Yes, you said it was too cold. And that was the thing that he remembered. So below decks, the gun crews, they would have stripped their waists. They have tied handkerchiefs around their heads and ears to muffle the sound of the guns. They will be, some of them are dancing a jig. The band are playing things like, you know, Royal Britannia, God Save the King, Heart of Oak, all of these kind of patriotic songs to get them in the mood.

Nelson for the last time tours the ship. He says to his men, he shakes hands with his left hand with his men. He says, do not fire until absolutely sure of your object. In other words, hold your fire until you see the whites of their eyes. And he has never seemed more calm or more confident. My noble lads, he says, this will be a glorious day for England, whoever lives to see it. And on every ship in the fleet, there are similar scenes. The captain's giving these incredibly inspiring speeches to their men saying, you know, we don't back down, we don't surrender.

I know you will do well. You know, this is going to be a great day. Enjoy it. Get out there and have fun. Exactly. It is like a bit of a sort of football manager before a big game kind of atmosphere. So it's 11 o'clock now.

Nelson takes his place on the quarter deck of the victory. And beside him are the ship's captain, Thomas Hardy, the master of the ship, Thomas Atkinson, the first lieutenant, John Quilliam, and the frigate captain, Henry Blackwood. And they can now see the combined fleet clearly. They can see the decorations on the French and Spanish ships, the gun ports.

They can see the little figures moving about on deck. And they can see the size of some of their opponents. Yeah, they're monsters, aren't they? Gravina's flagship, the Principia di Asturias, has 112 guns. The Santissima Trinidad, which Nelson had faced at Cape St. Vincent. Is it, I think, a Capes and Vincent? 140 guns. So the biggest ship on Earth.

Four decks. Four decks, an absolute monster. So in total, Villeneuve and Gravina have 33 ships. They have 2,600 guns and 30,000 men. Nelson, much smaller. In men, 17,000 men, smaller in guns, barely 2,000 guns, and 27 ships. That's how the British like it, isn't it, to be outnumbered. That's how we love it.

So as we discussed in the previous episode, I mean, this is an amazing fact and cannot be hammered home too strongly. the two fleets at Trafalgar had ten times as much firepower as all the armies at Waterloo put together. I mean, imagine being at the centre of that, the noise and the smoke and the, yeah, it's very first world war, actually. There's never been anything like it in history, right? No, never has, certainly two industrialising nations in Britain and France and a third in Spain. Never have they committed so much of their resources to create a kind of killing zone of this explosive power. It's kind of science fiction quality for everyone who's going to have to live through it.

It's clear the French and Spanish should gird in their loins for a fight. Nelson says to Blackwood, the enemy are putting a good face on it. And Blackwood says rather ominously, indeed, sir, they have a coolness. I am sorry to witness. But actually, on board certainly some of the Spanish ships, there's anxiety. So one of the captain says the fleet is doomed. And also on Villeneuve's flagship, it had just recently been struck by lightning. And so there are lots of people there who think that's an omen too. So I think there is a sense of trepidation on the combined fleet.

Yeah, I agree with you. But I think we shouldn't be too harsh on poor old Villeneuve. Villeneuve who got a terrible press in Paris, didn't he? People said he was a coward and all of this, which he absolutely wasn't. He has dressed, just like Nelson has, very conspicuously. He's got a Parisian sheik, naval chic. And it's sort of green trousers and gleaming back boots and a big blue coat. And there's a scene before the battle where they parade the Imperial Eagle around the decks. Yeah, which has been given to them personally by Napoleon. By Napoleon.

Exactly. I think designed by Napoleon, actually. And they're all shouting, vive l'empereur. And then the Bucenture signals to the combined fleet open fire when the enemy are within range. And that moment is coming closer and closer now. it's 11.30. The British fleet are just a couple of miles away. They have unfurled their flags. So if you imagine the scene, if there's a Hollywood screenwriter listening to this, the big, the cross of St. George, the Union Jack. The victory is flying the white end sign, which is basically a

combination of the two, which is Nelson's personal flag as an Admiral of the White. Magnificent. An Admiral of the White. It's a great spectacle. Now, they've divided into their two columns. Collingwood's column is now ahead, and Nelson is impressed that Collingwood is making such great progress. He says, see how that noble fellow Collingwood carries his ship into action. And at that point, he calls over to a signal lieutenant called John Pascoe, and he says, one more signal to inspire the men. England confides that every man will do his duty. And this is why he, before he left, he'd made sure that all the ships in his fleet had the most up-to-date signal book, isn't it?

For just such a moment. But Nelson has made a mistake. There is no easy signal for the word confides. And so Pascoe hesitates and says to him, confide, sir, really? What about expects? And Nelson says, that will do, Pascoe. Make it directly. And so a moment later, 31 flags go up the mizzen top-gallant mainmast.

I'm sure you can picture which particular mast that is. Yeah, that signal is, of course, England expects that every man will do his duty. And to quote myself in the adventures in time to inspire young readers, in those words there was an extraordinary magic, as if Nelson was speaking personally to every man in the fleet, putting an arm around his shoulders and urging him to do his best. I mean, I've got to say, expect is much better than confides. Yeah, it is. it is exactly it's a it's a simple direct word and there's a little bit of a sense of obligation there isn't there which people would want to rise to yeah again it's like the football manager yeah one sailor said that signal gave us a determination to conquer which is exactly as it should

be but it's not the last signal is it so there's two more signals at 1144 yes so one of one of the signals is that the feature prepared to anchor the night after the battle and the reason for that is that Nelson who, you know, from his earliest days on a ship, as a midshipman, had been recording weather patterns. He can read the sea and the weather like nobody else. And he can sense that a storm is brewing. And the kind of the incipient storm is manifesting itself in quite a strong swell that is coming in from the west. And for now, this is good news for the British fleet because it's kind of urging them on. So Collingwood, you know, rushing on towards the French fleet, he's able to to do that because he has this swell behind him. And it's also very bad news for the combined

fleet because every time there is a swell that comes through, it rolls their ships up and down, up and down. And that in turn means it's very difficult for their cannon to aim directly. I mean, essentially, it's only for a few seconds that they will be level with the British ships. And this ensures that essentially when they start firing, they don't really have accuracy. So that's good news for Nelson. So that's the first signal, you know, looking ahead to when the French hopefully have been beaten. But for now there is, of course, the prospect of battle. And so the second signal, unsurprisingly, is engage the enemy more closely because that pell-mell battle getting up close, creating chaos, that is what Nelson's battle plan is all about.

So we're coming very close to midday now. Henry Blackwood, the frigate captain, is now preparing to leave to go back to his frigate. And he says, farewell to Nelson. He says, I trust my lord that on my return to the victory, I shall find your lordship well and in possession of 20 prizes, meaning 20 captured enemy ships, which is Nelson's goal. And Nelson says to him, God bless you, Blackwood, I shall never speak to you again. Which is an extraordinary fatalistic thing to say. And biographers have sometimes said, you know, did Nelson have a kind of pre-sentiment of his own demise? I mean, maybe it's the kind of remark, theatrical remark, that if he'd won, Blackwood would have forgotten it.

I mean, I think it's the kind of comment that he is recorded as having made before battles quite a lot. It's almost like kind of touchwood, isn't it? Yes, I think it is. 1156, Collingwood's royal sovereign, the head of that column, is now within range of the French guns. And the gun captains on the French ship, fugue give the order to fire. And this is devastating for the royal sovereign, isn't it? Because as it's approaching, it can't fire back. The British can only aim their own guns once they are up alongside the French ships. But for now, as they approach it, the French are just able to blast the prow of Collingwood's ship. But Collingwood, you know, undeterred, unwavering, kind of leads his column right into the kind of tempest of enemy fire. He's getting broad sides from two sides from the Santa Ana and the fugue. But, you know, that's his job.

That's what he's all about. And he's followed by the other ships from his division. And there's a story that I always think is too good to be true. Because the next ship is a ship called the Belil under an English ship under William Hargood. And he overtakes a heavier ship called the Tonnel under Charles Tyler. And as they're passing each other, Tyler shouts to William Hargud, A glorious day for old England. And it's just like, it's brilliant how they're performing exactly as they.

Yeah, they feel they have to live up to this. You know, that's the wonderful thing. There's no sense of irony about this for them. They complete sincerity. Well, also, they know this is a Titanic battle that will live in the annals of history. And they want, you know, they want to be in those annals. Yeah, I mean, quite right. And they are.

So Nelson is watching with admiration from the victory as Collingwood's division leads the way. His own moment has almost come. The victory is now very close to. Villeneuve's flagship, the Bucentor. There are shots beginning to whistle overhead, but he says, you know, hold your fire, hold your fire, and his gun crews are holding their nerve. And then three enemy ships open fire on him at once, the San Agostin, the Hiros, and the Santissima Trinidad.

So that's about 200 guns. That's a lot of guns. Firing into Nelson's ship. And the air is already full of smoke and splinters and blood and whatnot, and yet still Nelson waits. he has got up to Villaner's flagship now and he's slowly turning turning taking the enemy fire

waiting for the perfect moment to return it but that means of course he's absorbing enormous punishment and because he's on the quarter deck he's in the line of fire so at one point you know the quarter deck's quite small at one point his secretary who's a bloke called John Scott is talking to Captain Hardy

when an enemy cannonball just smashes into the middle of him and basically blows him to pieces. He's kind of two legs are left standing, aren't they? Yeah, it's a ghastly scene. And two sailors basically take the rest of him and throw it over the side. And Nelson, he kind of glances over his shoulder and he says, oh, is that poor Scott that's gone?

Poor fellow. Yeah, very Duke of Wellington at the Battle of Altloo. Very Duke of Wellington. Then the ship's wheel explodes in a kind of cloud of splinters. There's another shot that kills eight Marines in one go on the poop deck. And Nelson says to the Marine Captain, and spread out your men. You know, don't pack them together

because if they're, you know, they'll be more easily killed if they're packed together. And there are more and more shots kind of hammering into the quarter deck. One of them famously ricochets off Hardy's shoe and rips off the buckle. And, you know, it's very lucky for Hardy

basically could have lost his foot. And Nelson says to Hardy, this is too warm work Hardy to last long, meaning we can't take much more of this. Because they've now lost, what, about 50 men dead and wounded on the deck of the victory. Their sail has been reduced to ribbons. The wheel has been destroyed.

But while that has been happening, they have completed the turn and they are ready to fire. And so Victory has 50 cannons trained on the Boussantor and smash the French flagship seems almost to kind of crumple in submission before this firepower. And now it is the turn of the French flagship. its deck to be covered with bodies, soaked in blood, its guns wrecked, its officers smashed to pieces, although Villeneuve survives, doesn't he? And it is a scene of the utmost devastation, and that is what Nelson's entire battle plan had been.

This is the chaos that he has created on the assumption that he will be able to capitalize on it, and so it has turned out. But we can't, you know, emphasize too much just how bloody and horrific. this is. I mean, this is not, you know, anyone who thinks, oh, I'd love to see the Battle of Trafalgar. I mean, it's an unbelievably traumatising and horrific scene. So we mentioned one of the guys who wrote a letter to his parents, Robert Smith dying. He was killed by enemy shot and they ripped off both of his legs. Hardee's Clark was killed on his way down to the surgeon. The Marine captain, Charles Adair, was killed while pulling his men back to try to shield them from the fire. But all the time, this is the amazing thing.

They stick to their guns, they stick to their posts. This is what they've been trained for, to absorb all this enemy punishment. And they do it because they know they will win, because they are winning. Well, the deck is a wash with blood. But below deck, the gunners there are kind of much more protected by, you know, they're not as exposed. And so therefore they are able to continue just pounding and pounding and pounding. And the British gunners are just much more efficient.

much quicker than their French adversaries. I mean, that's what basically makes them so lethal. Yeah, but it's not over yet. Because, of course, the victory is still kind of isolated at the head of its column. Three enemy ships at once kind of converge on the victory, hemming it in, and an attempt to kind of break out of their deadly embrace, he drives the victory into one of the French 74s,

which is called the Rudutabl, and he sends the Rudutab swinging backwards. So there's more shots on every side. the Rudutab is preparing to board because of course that was Villeneuve's plan turned the sea battle into a land battle use all the infantry on our ships to get aboard the British ships

and create havoc so the Rudutab's men are throwing grappling hooks they're pulling the two ships together getting ready to launch their assault and there's kind of loads of musket fire coming in and a hail of grenades there are clouds of black smoke coming from above the victory

and then Tom comes the moment, and maybe you would like to read from the earth-shatteringly definitive account. Yes, Adventures in Time by Dominic Sambrook. On the quarter-deck, Nelson and Hardy were deep in conversation as so often in the past. On his admiral's coat, the golden buttons gleamed in the sunlight. High above the deck of the Redoubtable, a French marksman levelled his musket. Through the smoke, he could see a flash of guilt, as two little figures moved on the British flagship.

On the victory, Nelson turned to speak to Hardy. The marksman's finger tightened on the trigger. It was 1.15 in the afternoon. In Burnham Thorpe, the birds were singing. The marksman fired. We'll take a break. This episode is brought to you by Uber. Now, do you know that feeling when someone

shows up for you when you need it most. We all need that sometimes, and Uber knows it. Uber isn't just a ride or a meal delivered, it's showing up no matter what. Like for your long distance friends, bringing soup when they're sick, sending flowers when they're down. When it really matters, whatever it is, you show up. Where there's a will, we're on our way. Uber, on our way. Download the app today. Hello and welcome back to a very emotional rest is history. Dominic, a shot has rung out from the friendship, the Aredu Tabler, but the clamour of the battle being what it is, nobody has heard it.

And it's only when Hardy, who's been kind of pacing ahead, turns back to look for Nelson that he realizes what has happened. because he sees Nelson lying on his side, he's in excruciating agony, he's propping himself up with his left hand. And Hardy can see that a musket ball has hit Nelson on the left shoulder, punched through his spine and is buried inside his body. And Hardy and other sailors rush to his side and Nelson looks up at Hardy and says, I believe they have done it at last. My backbone is shot through. And Hardy orders men to pick the Admiral up, to carry him down to the surgeon's cockpit. And of course, every step that the men carrying Nelson take, it's absolute agony for Nelson

himself. And such is his pain that he asks for a handkerchief to cover his face because he doesn't want to alarm his men with how seriously injured he is. He knows that probably he's dying. So he's taken down it into the cockpit and there in the shambles, he is laid down. Yeah. It's a terrible place that's to the cockpit. It's very dark. It's lit by these kind of shaking lanterns. There's a smell of sweat and blood.

There's blood everywhere. There's blood on the timbers. There's the bodies of wounded men everywhere. They can hear up ahead the roar of the guns, the cheering and screaming and whatnot. And whenever the ship lurches, you know, some of the wounded men, men cry out in pain and they lie Nelson down on a midshipman's cot and they take off his clothes. The surgeon, Dr. Beatty, William Beatty, comes at once and they can tell from his face right away, you know, what this means. And Nelson says to Beatty, uh, Mr. Beattie, you can do

nothing for me. I have but a short time to live. My back is shot through and Beatty examines him. Now, around Nelson are some of his closest comrades as chaplain, Alex. Sanda Scott, who will basically not leave his side now for weeks to come, and his steward, William Chevalier and others. And Beatty is fighting back tears. And he looks at Nelson. He says, My lord, unhappily for our country, there is nothing that can be done for you. And Nelson says, Doctor, I told you so. Doctor, I'm gone. Now what happens next? There are different accounts. Probably the best version of this, I think, is in John Sugden's extraordinary biography, which kind of, you know, sifts all the evidence. Nelson, throughout the afternoon, is talking about Lady Hamilton, isn't he, Tom?

Remember me to Lady Hamilton. Remember me to Horatia. I have to leave Lady Hamilton, my adopted daughter, Horatia, as a legacy to my country. It's interesting that he still says at this point, my adopted daughter, everybody in that room knows that she's his daughter and not adopted. But he's still... It's the muscle memory, isn't it? He's been saying it over and over again. But, I mean, they're on his mind.

They are the people he keeps returning to. And this pressing anxiety that if he dies, what will happen to them? Yeah. Now, right from the beginning, he says to Beatty, don't waste your time with me. You know, I'm done for. Spend your time on the men who really need you. What's happened is his backbone has been shattered by this musketball and he's losing all sense in his lower body. But whenever the ship, you know, moves, whenever the guns crash overhead, he kind of gives great wince and agony.

He is being suffocated by heat and by the kind of darkness. He's constantly trying to throw off the sheet they put over him. And he keeps whispering, fan, fan, drink, drink. And they bring him some water and lemonade. But he's so weak, he can barely sip, you know, more than a few kind of drops. And the Reverend Scott kneels and prays with him for a little bit. But it's clear, you know, the end is coming. Nelson is cheering up ahead and he starts to ask for Hardy.

Where's Hardy? Bring me Hardy. You have the sense of him, I think, that he is clinging to life until he knows. He's desperate for the victory that he is craved for so long and he will not give up until he hears the news. And actually, the bloke who's a few feet away from him lying wounded, is John Pascoe, the signals lieutenant, the England expects guy, who's been badly wounded by grapeshot. And Pascoe whispers to him, if there's cheer. That must be a good sign. The French must be surrendering.

And they are, aren't they? Because up above the Redutabler has been overpowered by the Temerare, which is the ship in Turner's great painting. And by half-past one in the afternoon, about 500 of the crew of the Redu-Tabler are lying dead. And so the captain hauls down their flag. and probably the sniper who shot Nelson by this point, he's dead shot by the British Marines from the deck of the victory. Yeah, but of course Nelson can't really know

all the details of this. So that's what's making him anxious and why he's always asking for Hardy. And Hardy, because he's in the thick of the battle, doesn't come down until about 2.30. And he clasps Nelson's hand. He's shocked when he sees Nelson's condition. Nelson, who's clearly in agony, says,

well Hardy how goes the day with us and Hardy says very well my lord he says so far we've captured about 12 of 14 of their ships and I have no doubt of giving the rest a drubbing and Nelson says I'm a dead man Hardy I'm going fast it'll be all over with me soon come nearer to me pray let my dear lady Hamilton have my hair and all other things belonging to me and Hardy sits and holds his hand for a little bit and Nelson who is you know hard is clearly completely distraught, this huge and terrifying man, actually, and Nelson is sort of passing in and out of consciousness. And the reason that Hardy feels able to sit with Nelson is essentially because by this

point the battle is no longer in the balance. The British have clearly won. I mean, it has to be said that the French and the Spanish have fought with tremendous courage, but, you know, as Villeneuve all along had known would happen, they had been outgunned by the British, because the British are just too good to confront at sea. And Villeneuve himself paved with great gallantry, with great courage. He remains at his post to the very end, probably hoping for heroic death, but it doesn't come. And so around 2.30, he too hauls down his colours and his ship is boarded.

and the British take the eagle that had been given to Villeneuve personally by Napoleon and they toss it overboard. Yeah, a very striking symbolic moment. Some of the combined fleet fought on for a few hours more, but by late afternoon it was all over. And it's the vindication of everything, of Nelson's entire career. Because I guess it's not just about Nelson, is it? It's about the sailors, the shipyards, the workshops, the factories.

I mean, we did a famous tour of Chatham High Street. It's what that represents. It's the people who make the sails. It's the seamstresses. It's the clerks and the chemists and the carpenters and the blacksmiths and Pitt and Collingwood. It's because this was a total war in which the entire nation was mobilized. And they were mobilized for this moment in time, for this point. But I would say it goes even, you know, it's even.

more than that, this is an investment that goes back decades. And it's probably the most sustained, the most effective investment ever undertaken up to that point by a nation state. And essentially, if the British government today wants an example of how to get things done and how to make long-term investment pay off, then I think looking to Trafalgar and seeing what made it possible would be a very good lesson because Trafalgar was won decades before. I have an image in my mind, Tom,

of Rachel Reeves and Pritchett Philipson and like, we're listening to this podcast with tears streaming down, tears of patriotic enthusiasm streaming down their cheeks because I'm sure this is exactly the kind of thing they love. Right.

It's a victory, of course, above all, though, for the man who planned it. The man who led the way and effectively sacrificed himself for victory. And now, in his supreme hour, the story is drawing to a close. At about 3.30, Hardy comes back to Nelson, having left him. And he says, we have won a magnificent victory.

We've taken at least 15 ships, maybe more. He says, all this is down to you, and people will talk of this day forever. And Nelson, very faintly says, 15. That is well, but I bargained for 20. And I mean, this is unprecedented, isn't it? At the Battle of the Nile, Nelson took seven, and that was seen as an unprecedented achievement. So that gives you some sense of the scale of what he has achieved at Trafalgar. Just unbelievable.

Hardy says to Nelson, should Admiral Collingwood take command of the fleet now? And Nelson says, not where I live, I hope, Hardy. You know, even now Nelson doesn't want to give up the command. Now, he reminds Hardy, he says, make sure you anchor overnight because that storm is coming. And actually, you know, he's right because that storm will kill a lot of people, as it turns out. He is now really, really struggling to breathe, Nelson. Again, take care of my dear Lady Hamilton, Hardy. Take care of poor Lady Hamilton. And then the very famous moment that every schoolboy and schoolgirl used to learn. I shall die, Hardy. Is your pain great, sir? Yes, but I shall live

half an hour yet. Hardy kiss me. And Hardy kneels down and kisses his cheek. A very moving scene. and Nelson says, thank God I've done my duty and closes his eyes. Hardy straightens up and then changes his mind and kneels down again and kisses Nelson's brow. And Nelson says, who is that? It's Hardy. God bless you, Hardy, says Nelson. And then Hardy turns away he's so overcome. You know, it was so striking for people in that little room that Hardy, who was so terrifying,

usually, you know, who loved nothing better than flogging his men, was so, so stricken, you know, kind of tears in his eyes and all this kind. Even though he is won, you know, he is, he is captained the flagship that has won the most famous victory in naval history, but he's so affected by his friend's plight. Yeah, of course. I mean, I'm wiping away a manly tear. So for another hour, Nelson lies there. He's drifting in and out of sleep. His steward, Chevalier, turns him onto his right side, which is the only position that eases his pain a bit. But Nelson's in dreadful agony, and he's just whispering drink. drink fan fan rub rub he opens his eyes and he sees his chaplain the reverend scott and he says

i wish i had not left the deck for soon i shall be gone remember that i leave lady hamilton and my daughter horatia as a legacy to my country never forget horatia and then for a few minutes they're there in silence nelson is on his side he's got his eyes closed they're rubbing his chest and sort of propping him up to stop him just slumping over completely he's really struggling to breathe now, and the Reverend Scott hears him whispering again and again, thank God I've done my duty. And very softly, he whispers his last words, God and my country. And then it's over. That's the end of the story, not a dry eye in the house. Oh dear, but not quite the end, is it? Because just a little bit of housekeeping, Dominic.

You know, the scale of the victory, so the final tally at Trafalgar, I mean, stunning. The British have lost about 500 people. another 1,200 wounded, French and Spanish, about 10 times more. The ships, Nelson captured 7 at the Nile. Here, they have captured 17 ships, destroyed an 18th, and this is the most stunning hall in the entire history of naval combat. And when the news of it gets back to England, people can't believe it. I mean, they're just blown away.

Although, of course, Nelson dies disappointed that it wasn't 20. So always, always demanding the best. But of course, for the men of his fleet, I mean, it's an incredibly bittersweet victory, isn't it? Because they absolutely recognise in it the Nelson touch, and now Nelson has gone. Yeah, it's extraordinary, actually, how many stories there are people openly weeping in the fleet when they heard the news that he was dead. So when Hardy sent a party to the Royal Sovereign to tell Admiral Collingwood that Nelson had died, they went aboard the Royal Sophrin with tears streaming down their faces. One of Collingwood's sailors said,

it was strange to see chaps that fought like the devil sit down and cry like a wench. The captains in particular, so the people who had had those dinners with Nelson, you know, just a few weeks before. They've won the most amazing victory in history, but they are like broken men because it almost feels like it's been stripped of its meaning without him. Henry Blackwood, the frigate captain, said to his wife, I've lost the most gallant of men and the best of friends. The Reverend Scott, I could forever tell you the qualities of this beloved man.

I haven't shed a tear for years before the 21st of October, but since, whenever alone, I'm quite a child. Yeah, and I guess a particular shock for Collingwood, he's probably Nelson's closest friend in the fleet, and had known Nelson since the very beginning. So he wrote, I cannot tell you how deeply I am affected. My friendship for him was unlike anything that I have left in the Navy. a brotherhood of more than 30 years and so he is now in command of the British fleet and I'm afraid, you know, I love Collingwood no one admires Collingwood more than me

but he does slightly let himself down because of course Nelson all day had been urging the fleet to anchor overnight because this storm is coming in and Collingwood neglects to give that order and sure enough a storm does come in and what is it kind of 2,000, 3,000 French and Spanish prisoners end up drowning.

Lots of the prizes have to be abandoned. So that's a slight blot on Collingwood's copybook, but only the slightest. I mean, this is the man who hit the French line first. Yeah, exactly. So on the 26th of October when the storm was over, Collingwood sent a ship to London with the news. A cutter called the Pickle. Which is a terrible name for a ship. It is.

It's really underwhelming. It's like the dog that found the World Cup, isn't it? Yeah. So under an officer called John Richards Lapinotier, who was the envy of the fleet, I have to say, and basically traded on this for the rest of his life. And he arrived in Falmouth on the 4th of November. And he got on the first coach to London.

He arrived at the Admiralty in heavy fog, and he handed over Collingwood's report. And Collingwood said, we've won a complete and glorious victory. But he went on, it's a very famous kind of passage, to record the loss of a hero whose name will be immortal and his memory ever dear to his country and Connywood went on to say

my heart is rent with the most poignant grief for the death of a friend to whom for all these years I was bound by the strongest ties of affection and that report was copied and taken straight to Downing Street to William Pitt, Pitt the younger. Pitt gets it kind of in the small hours of the morning.

Pitt always said, whatever the news, no matter how badly the war is going, always get a good night's sleep. And he said afterwards this was the one night in his political career when he couldn't sleep because he was so affected by the loss of Nelson. George III was at Windsor Castle. He got the report just before breakfast and he supposedly sat there in silence, unable

to speak with emotion. And Tom, you think this is out of guilt. Well, I hope so because he snubbed Nelson, didn't he? He was not as supportive of the great man as he could have been. Yes. So, you know, as day dawns, the news spreads across London, the newspapers printed special editions, a huge crowd assembled at the Admiralty, totally silent. It's an amazing thing. You know, the Royal Navy had won the victory that had been longed for for so long. Britain was definitively safe from invasion, you know, mistress of the seas, and yet it is the loss of Nelson that is the sort of first entry in their headlines. Yeah, so Robert Southey, who becomes a poet laureate, and wrote the first great biography of Nelson. I mean, he said it was felt in England as something more than a public calamity. Men started at the intelligence and turned pale as if they had heard of the loss of a dear friend.

And there's another poet, Samuel Taylor Coleridge, who was in Naples at the time. And he said that people kept coming up to him in the streets to console him and said, as they held my hand, they burst themselves into tears. Of course, Naples, you know, there are some people who hated Nelson. There were others who regarded him as their saviour. Exactly. So we'll talk about Emma and Fanny and what happened to them in next week's bonus episode for our Restis History Club members, weren't we, Tom? So that's an incentive, if any, be needed to join the Restis History Club.

But let's just wrap up what happened to Nelson himself. The victory got back to Britain on the 5th of December, and it was carrying Nelson's body which had been preserved in a barrel, first with brandy and then transferred into one with pure alcohol. And two days before Christmas the victory reached the estuary of the Thames and there the sailors moved Nelson's body into the coffin that he had personally prepared carved from the mast of L'Oriand, the French flagship at the Nile. And this was loaded onto a smaller ship which Tom, I know it will delight you to know, was called the Chatham for the journey up river.

and it was accompanied the whole way by the Reverend Scott, Nelson's personal chaplain who hadn't left his side the whole time. And at Christmas Eve, the Chatham sailed west up the River Thames. As it passed, the forts fired their guns and the other ships lowered their flags in mourning and the bells told

in the sort of riverside villages. By early afternoon and Christmas Eve, they'd reached the Royal Hospital at Greenwich, which is the perfect place for it. You know, the painted hall at Greenwich, the kind of temple to Britain's maritime traditions and to the monarchy and to British trade and all of these things. And there Nelson kind of lay in state and thousands of people filed past his body, you know, shuffled past. These are the people for whom Nelson had fought. And so they knew exactly how much they owed him. And it remained

there till the 8th of January. And then it was loaded onto the Royal Barge to make the journey into London. And it was an amazing spectacle, actually. You know, lieutenants from the victory as guards. All the escort ships were commanded by the other heroes of Trafalgar. So Pascoe, the signals lieutenant, who's recovered from his wounds, Henry Blackwood, Thomas Hardy. They're all there, kind of part of this pageantry. Great crowds of spectators on the banks, guns, firing. And eventually they got to London and the coffin was taken to the Admiralty one last time to the headquarters of the Royal Navy and again the Reverend Scott

kept vigil all night with it. And then Thursday, the 9th of January, the funeral itself and I mean it's not just one of Britain's greatest public spectacles but it establishes the template doesn't it of what a great national hero

can expect when he dies because it establishes the template for Wellington and for Churchill in their funerals but it is Nelson who is the first Yeah. I mean, it was a freezing day, thousands upon thousands of people in the streets. You know, these are days when you can't really estimate the size of the crowd. And what they saw was this great parade, this huge black funeral carriage, which had been designed to resemble the victory. I can't quite get my head around what that would have looked like. It's a little bit vulgar. Yeah. You know, the drums are muffled. There are kind of cannon shots in the distance. The congregation at St. Paul's Cathedral had been there since 7 o'clock in the morning. taking their seats. When Nelson's coffin finally got there, a team of sailors carried the coffin to the altar, followed by a procession of Nelson's family, leading politicians, not William Pitt,

who's already seriously ill and is going to end up dying. But there are junior members of the royal family, people from the city of London and so on. And the chief mourner was Sir Peter Parker, who was the admiral who had given Nelson his first command in the Caribbean a quarter of a century earlier. So very fitting. A 5.30 at the words, his name liveth forever more. Nelson was lowered into the crypt

and he rests in the sarcophagus that was originally built for or made for Cardinal Woolsey and then was taken by Hemorrh of the 8th. But that's what you see if you go to St. Paul's today. And the last moment, I mean, if Nelson's story couldn't be any more theatrical,

at the end, the sailors were meant to take the victory's flag. and fold it and to lay it in the grave. But instead, what the sailors did was they ripped it up in front to everybody, and each man took a fragment for himself, like a little reminder, and a sort of sense that Nelson who belonged to the Royal Navy all his life, now he was theirs forever. So that is Nelson laid in his grave.

We should probably just go through some of the other characters who featured in this episode and the story more generally. So Collingwood, he dies at sea in 1810. Bounce had survived the Battle of Trafalgar, I'm glad to say. Thomas Hardy, he became a baronet. He became a first naval lord. He died in 1839, always remembered for his kiss. Poor old Villeneuve, he's brought back as a prisoner, isn't he?

He ends up in a pub in Hampshire. I love a pub in Hampshire, so I can think of worse vates. he actually goes to Nelson's funeral and then he managed to get back to France and he's then found dead in Rann in 1806 so a year after Trafalgar

and it's a great mystery because it's unclear whether he committed suicide or whether he'd actually been murdered so some people said he committed suicide out of guilt or disappointment or depression or whatever but in Britain in particular because people wanted to believe the worst of Napoleon

It was widely believed that he'd been murdered by Napoleon's agents as punishment for losing the Bethel of Republic. It sounds like exactly the kind of thing that Corsican would do, don't you think, Tom? I mean, there has all along in the background been this incredible intelligence war raging between the British and French intelligence services, kind of Tinker Taylor's soldier spy paranoia. So you can see how those stories would emerge. Definitely. And then there's always a great thing about the story of Nelson is there's always yet another melodramatic flourish to come. And this is one of my favorites. So Admiral Gravina, the Spanish Admiral, who'd been wounded at Trafalgar.

He never recovered, and he also died in 1806. And on his deathbed in Spain, he was visited by a British doctor who reported that Gravina's last words were, I die happy. I am going. I hope and trust to join Nelson, perhaps the greatest hero that the world has produced. And Dominic, just to be clear, this depends entirely on the testimony of a British, doctor. But I think everybody listened to this would agree that this

definitely, this really clearly would have happened. There's no doubt that that would have been Gravina's final sentiment. So Dominant, two more people. Yeah. Fanny, Lady Nelson, who you have a great tondress for. So she gets a pension from the government. She gets the money that Nelson is owed

from all the prizes. That goes to her as well. She goes to Paris after 1815 and Waterloo stays there and then she retires to Exmouth, and throughout her final years, she remains what she has always been, the absolute soul of respectability. She's on good terms with Nelson's officers. She rebuilds bridges with his family. And William IV, Duke of Clarence, as had been, kind of old mucker of Nelson's, he comes and visits her, and she dies in 1831. So she has, you know, haven't called it a happy post-Nelson life

but a comfortable a comfortable and prosperous one whether that is what Emma Hamilton has we will find out as we've been saying in the bonus that is out next week and also the fate of Horatia Nelson's daughter

who was so much on his mind as he lay dying on victory so Nelson after his death as Andrew Lambert the historian puts it he was transformed from a living hero into a national god. And part of this, I think, is about the context. So actually, while Nelson has been laid to rest and people have been mourning, Napoleon

has won the Battle of Austerlitz. So Napoleon has been absolutely smiting, you know, the Austrians and the Prussians and whatnot. It's clear this is going to be a very long war, and Britain needs a martyred naval hero. So Nelson is turned into a kind of 19th century classical hero, isn't he? as you were saying, the kind of Christian Achilles, he's immortalized in stone, in classical style. The first monument was actually commissioned in Hereford. Nelson was a kind of freemen of the city of Hereford or something, and the people of Hereford were keen to celebrate this. Then there was an obelisk in Portsmouth.

There was the famous pillar in Dublin, which was blown up in the 1960s. And then there were Birmingham, Glasgow, Liverpool. Not just in Britain, actually. So Montreal, there's a column. There's a column in Barbados. the city of Nelson, New Zealand is named after Nelson, the island of Nelson, British Columbia, in Canada. And most famously, later, Trafalgar Square.

So you're the expert on the architecture of London, Tom. What's the story here? Yeah, and of course Nelson's column. And neither of these were built until the 1840s. And essentially the problem with building Trafalgar Square is that they had to get rid of a lot of slums and rackety old buildings. And actually among the buildings that ends up being cleared was the tavern where coaches from Chester would arrive and unload their human cargo. And one of those people who would have stepped out of the coach from Chester into this tavern would have been the very, very young girl who would go on to become Emma Hamilton.

And so obviously the centrepiece of Trafalgar Square is this great column, both in its design and the proportions. of the column from a column that's pretty much all that survives of the Temple of Mars Altar in Rome that was built by Augustus. And on its base, it has four reliefs illustrating the four great victories won by Nelson or in which he assisted. So Capes in Vincent, the Nile, Copenhagen and Trafalgar. And the relief of Trafalgar is the one that has the black sailor, probably a young man called George Ryan, who was age 23 when he took part in Trafalgar.

And I guess it's the ultimate architectural symbol of British patriotism, isn't it? I mean, that's certainly what Hitler thought, because his plan was when he conquered Britain, that he would remove Nelson's column and take it to Berlin. Yes, I think for the next 150 years or so, Nelson was the supreme icon, wasn't he, the great patriotic icon, celebrated in paintings and poetry. by great historians. Yeah, but also I think an inspiration to future Britons who might dream of serving and saving their country,

of whom obviously there's one in particular because Churchill was obsessed by Nelson. He had a bust of Nelson at Chartwell. When he was at the Admiralty, he called the Cat There Nelson. And in 1945, he belonged to this dining club. So Keynes was in it, Lloyd George. H.G. Wells, Lutchins, the great architect. And they got together and pulled their donations to try and buy him Nelson's gold snuffbox,

which had come up for auction. That's nice. I love that story. Now, in the last 10 or 20 years or so, there have been some very sort of half-hearted attempts to kind of cancel Nelson because of his opposition to abolitionism, you know, because he's associated with the Royal Navy and Empire and so on. Not that he was, I mean, he's more associated with fighting the front. He's not conquering other peoples. But they have never really succeeded.

And actually, I think Nelson remains, you know, he's definitely in the top five of sort of Britons in the public imagination, don't you think? I mean, when you look at the stats, so HMS victory at Portsmouth, there are more than 30 million people have gone to HMS victory in the last century. So that's about a third of a million people every year go and kind of walk the deck and everybody, you know, has their photo taken by the spot where there's the little plaque, isn't there, on the deck. This is where Nelson fell. You know, all of that. Nelson's victory at Trafalgar particularly does facilitate Britain's command of the oceans, which in turn facilitates the growth of the British Empire in the 19th century. But it does also, as we've said, facilitate the Royal Navy's campaign against the slave trade. I think that that makes him a less controversial imperial hero than almost any other. As you say, he's chiefly known for defeating the French, and I think that that remains. A brilliant thing. Well, it remains a kind of thing for which a British hero is unlikely to be cancelled.

Yeah, I think so. Of course, the great thing about Nelson is he embodies something bigger than himself, the Navy, which was then the most modern organisation in the world. the sinews of of industrial power I see in the chat Theo's muttering about Naples but I think we can

in this episode of all episodes we can just completely ignore whatever Theo is saying because of course what he resisted was Bonaparte's tyranny don't you think

and actually do you know what don't take it from me take it from no lesser person than the President of the United States who when he came to Windsor Castle said in his speech to King Charles. The lion-hearted people of this kingdom defeated Napoleon, unleashed the Industrial Revolution, destroyed slavery and defended civilization. And you know who he's talking

about? He's talking about Nelson. He is. Yeah. But I mean, I suppose also the other reason why Nelson endures in the public imagination and retains his popularity is precisely that he is a kind of hero of flesh and blood and that he does make mistakes and he does behave ludicrously. And there is a kind of comic element to him. And that also, I think, is a part of what makes him so appeal. I mean, makes him, I think, more appealing than, say, the Duke of Wellington, who's a much more granite figure. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. It's the fact that he is, he's a human being, you know, and it's not just the sometimes ludicrous vanity and the love life and stuff, but it's the sheer physical courage in putting himself at the front. It's the

the leadership, you know, the camaraderie, the warmth with which he related to his men and his men to him. And I think, you know, we always pair him with Napoleon. And they do have things in common, this kind of insatiable thirst for fame and for glory. But I think the big, for me, the big difference between these two characters is Napoleon is only ever interested in Napoleon. But Nelson, it's about the institution. It's about, you know, service and duty. And those are not really words, you know, it's la gloa that means most to Napoleon. But I think what means most to Nelson is this sense of institutional responsibility. And, you know, you've quoted many times, Collingwood saying of Nelson, you know, he was a brilliant warrior, but he had no

foolish passion for fighting. He was the most gentle of human creatures. Collingwood said what made him fight was his love of Britain, her laws and liberty. And that for me is why his last words on the victory are such a perfect epitaph, God and my country. And on that patriotic note, thank you everyone for listening. Thank you, Dominic. Goodbye. Bye-bye. Thank you.