The Rest Is History - 615. Disneyland: The Modern American Utopia

Episode Date: November 6, 2025

Why is Disneyland one of the most influential architectural creations of the 21st century? How did the Second World War impact Disney? And, how is Disneyland inextricably intertwined with the history of America? Join Dominic and Tom as they discuss the magical world of Disneyland, along with the fascinating history of Theme Parks, and the insight they provide into the historical contexts they were born of.  ____ Start generating your own greener electricity for less, with £500 off Solar. Visit https://www.hivehome.com/history for more information. T&Cs apply**Output and savings varies by season, electricity usage and system size. Paid-for surplus requires an eligible SEG tariff. Offer for new customers only. Ends 17th November. ____ Join The Rest Is History Club: Unlock the full experience of the show – with exclusive bonus episodes, ad-free listening, early access to every series and live show tickets, a members-only newsletter, discounted books from the show, and access to our private Discord chatroom. Sign up directly at therestishistory.com For more Goalhanger Podcasts, head to www.goalhanger.com _______ Twitter: @TheRestHistory @holland_tom @dcsandbrook Social Producer: Harry Baldwin Assistant Producer: Aaliyah Akude  Producer: Tabby Syrett Senior Producer: Theo Young-Smith Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Thank you for listening to The Rest is History. For weekly bonus episodes, add free listening, early access to series, and membership of our much-loved chat community, go to the restishistory.com and join the club. That is, the rest is history.com. This episode is brought to you by SAP. With investors, customers, and workers demanding more from your business,

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apply. Today on The Rest is History, we are visiting Disneyland and we are exploring the backstory of theme parks because Dominant, you love a theme park, don't you? So I actually do because I'm an adrenaline junkies, you know, Tom. So I really enjoy doing this episode. And actually, the deeper we went into it, the more fascinating it is. So you know the first roller coasters? Zaris, Russia, the age of Catherine the Great, surfs building great hills of ice and aristocrats going to boggaining down them. And then you get into the 19th century, you have gravity

switchback railroads, people traveling on these kind of mad railways against a painted background. But there's other predecessors to Disneyland, aren't there? So I know you love a Vauxhall Pleasure Garden. Well, yes, because it's nice to know that ultimately the origins of Disneyland lay in South London, where I live. That was a revelation for me. Yeah. Fountains, fireworks, houses made of glass, all that kind of thing. So that's all great.

And then we end by talking about Disneyland itself. A mad story, actually, when it opened in 1955. Basically, Walt Disney faced one of history's most difficult and most perilous dilemmas. He only had enough water to have drinks, fountains or flushing toilets. And only on this podcast will people find out what he chose. It's an extraordinary episode, great fun, and we hope you enjoy it. Absolutely, we do. This episode is brought to you by Hive.

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Why not, I asked, is it by any chance because you now have rocket launching paths there? No, they told me, you cannot go there because, just listen to this, the American authorities cannot guarantee your safety. What? Has cholera or plague broken out there that I'm, might catch it? Or has Disneyland been seized by bandits who might destroy me? But your policemen are such strong men. Surely they could deal effectively with such bandits. I said I should like to go to Disneyland just the same and see how Americans spend their leisure, but I am told

it is impossible. This development causes me bitter regret, and I cannot but express my disappointment. So that amazingly was not a South African, although I may have given you that impression. It was in fact a Russian, and specifically Nikita Khrushchev, Premier of the Soviet Union, who was speaking at 20th Century Fox in Los Angeles on the 19th September, 1959, and he was halfway through the first state visit ever made by a Soviet leader to the United States. It was a massive media circus, and when he came to L.A., he wanted Hollywood, the work. So he met Gary Cooper and Elizabeth Taylor and Marilyn Monroe, all the stars. But what his wife, Nina, wanted was to go to Disneyland. Because Dominic, Nina had been a huge fan of

Disney films since the 1940s and she'd specifically requested to visit the park. And Walt Disney had agreed to meet them personally, escort them around. But it gets cancelled. Why? So slightly unclear, actually. Some accounts say that there were security concerns in the Los Angeles police. Some say that there were Soviet security concerns, some that the visit was cancelled on the orders of the U.S. State Department. Whatever the truth, and it's really hard to get at the truth, Christoph was furious about it.

And upset. In his memoir, Christchroff remembers in the late 60s, I think it is, early 70s. He talks about this. He draws attention to it, and he says, the visit to Disneyland was cancelled because the American authorities were worried about right-wing, anti-communist demonstration. Of course, the irony is that Walt Disney himself at this point was right-wing and anti-communist. He hated Bolsheviks. Yeah, but he was prepared to welcome Christoph and show him around.

Anyway, the visit was cancelled. And I thought it was a fun way to set up an episode about Disneyland. If challenging for someone who can't do a Russian accent. Exactly, which is also an attraction. Because this is 1959. Disneyland has only been open for four years. But even at this point, to somebody like Christoph, the Premier of the Soviet Union, Union. Disneyland is an extraordinary draw. It's a symbol of America, as you says, I want to go

and see how the American people spend their leisure time. So even at this point in 1959, four years old, it's a symbol of America, of childhood fantasy, of small town, nostalgia, and of kind of mid-century futurism, all the things that we associate with Disneyland today. And people who think, gosh, a history podcast really, I mean, Disneyland is a project conceived in the 1940s, built in the 1950s, in the early Cold War. It's still a hugely important place. It's one of the most visited places on the planet. So if you look at the stats, almost 800 million people have been to Disneyland in the 70 years that it's been open. And if you ask, I would guess, most children in the world, most people under the age of, let's say, I don't know, 15, 13 or something.

What's the one place you would most like to go if you could go anywhere? Disneyland would probably, I guess, be top of the list. I don't think so. Hadrian's War. Yes. There was some interesting chat when we're in at Disneyland with your daughter about your childhood holidays. I think it's fair to say the scars are still quite raw. Anyway, I think it's a really good subject for a history podcast for three reasons. So first of all, because it's a great window into 1950s America,

into the anxieties and ambitions of Eisenhower's America when it is built. Secondly, I think it's an opportunity for us on the rest of history to dig into the history of things that most people probably don't think of as historical artifacts, which are to say parks, carousels, rides, the first roller coasters under Catherine the Great. I mean, oh, so maybe that's why Christopher wanted to go. It's a great Russian invention. A great Russian invention, exactly. Well, we'll come back to this.

And of course, Disneyland itself is a remarkable thing. For me, and we'll discuss this in the second half, it is one of the most influential architectural creations of the mid-20th century. And of course, because of its whole and on the imagination of so many people, it has become a massive cultural enterprise in its own right, just like Snow White or Mary Poppins or any of the films, Tom, that you talked about in the previous episode. Yeah.

So to explore where it comes from, let's get back to Disney himself, the guy who you described so brilliant. in Monday's episode. So after the Second World War, as we discussed, really some of the fun has gone out at the Disney studio. The studio, the animators, they've been decimated by the war, and they never really recover. And the great biography by Neil Gablet, he talks about how in the 1940s and in 1950s, there's

a real sense of Disney losing interest and losing confidence in his animated films. He's quoted as saying to one of his friends, we are through with caviar from now on, it is mashed potatoes and gravy. In other words, everything is going to be a little bit cheaper, a little bit blander, just not as good, basically. And Walt Disney is looking for outlets for this sort of tinkering genius and creative enthusiasm that we described last time. And the most obvious one of these, which plays a huge part at Disneyland and indeed at most modern day theme parks or kind of amusement parks, is trains. So in the summer of 1948, Disney goes with his animator Wally Kimball.

Of course he's called Wally. Of course he is. To a railroad fare in Chicago for a break. And on the way, they ride on the Santa Fe Railroad, and the people find out that Walt is there, and they say, would you like to ride in the engine and to pull the whistle chord? A very American kind of sound, the whistle of a train.

And Kimball said that after Walt had done this, he sat there staring into space, smiling and smiling. I had never seen him look so happy. Well, do you know, Dominic, I think trains are wonderful things. And I say that as someone who has officially named a train. You named it the Athelstan, didn't you? The King Athelstan. There was a brilliant photograph.

What? Of you looking with a gaggle of sheepish, grey-haired men. There was like some sort of bishop, some priest. I always assume you're going to be hanging around with a priest. And Ed Davy, the leader of the Liberal Democrats. The local MP. Yeah. And they all look like variants of you.

which I thought was interesting. I thought it was very amusing. Yeah, but Dominic, when I actually launched the train at King Athelstand to mark the 11th anniversary of the coronation of King Athelstan in Kingston, I was actually surrounded by... Fans? No, by men in chain armour, the local Kingston feared.

Yeah. And that's quite Disney as well, because there's a lot of dressing up. Okay, well, so Disney's had his own train ride, not on the Athelstan. He goes to Chicago, and this, moment when he goes to this railroad fare is, I think, a transformative moment in his life. He is asked to run some of the old engines, which he does, and he loves that. But also the fair has special exhibits, which are called, some people at the fair call them lands. There's a geyser, there's an Indian village, so Native American village, and there is a replica of the French

quarter in New Orleans. So something that you can see effectively at Disneyland. Anyway, he comes back and he's completely obsessed. He buys this massive train set and he fills half of a double garage with it. So he's got two trains, he's got tunnels, he's got bridges, has got all this. Like Rod Stewart? Like Rod Stewart, exactly. Another somebody else who you've hung around with, no? Rod Stewart?

Yes, I have met him. This is just a massive name-dropping exercise this show. So then he says, well, a model train's not enough. I want a life-size train. And he actually builds his own life-size train in the Disney studio machine shop. So by Christmas 1948, he's actually organizing test runs on the Disney sound stage of this train that he has built himself. You know, I love that about him. Yeah, it's fun.

You know, because we were saying in the previous episode how he didn't really wasn't interested in money. Yeah. But I like to see him spending money in such a wholesome and fun way. I think if I was a billionaire, I would set up a massive train set. So when he buys a new house in the late 1940s, a lot of Hollywood moguls would say, I'd like a massive cinema, I'll have a sort of a sex dungeon or whatever. Would they? Where does that come from?

He says, no, no, no. I must have room for my railroad. And he spends tens of thousands of dollars on this railroad with 2,500 feet of track that go around the property. And he has a 90-foot tunnel that will take the train underneath his wife's flower garden. His wife isn't tremendously keen on this new... Yeah, she'd rather have the dungeon, frankly. Then he decides, well, I'd like, you know, why stop there? Why stop with trains?

He becomes really interested in the idea of artificial worlds. And he goes to miniature shops when he goes to Europe on holiday, to buy little miniature fixtures for his little train set. And he starts obsessively collecting furniture and kind of even little kind of liquor bottles and groceries and stuff like this. But the thing that's fascinating about that is that it's such a feature of his great animations as well, the obsessive interest in bottles and pots and pans and things. I mean, he obviously loved all that.

Yeah. He's just a massive, massive collector, I think. And he wasn't Walt Disney. He'd be the kind of person who absolutely had a shed with a giant train set or a model, you know, a model village or something. And as always with Disney, his enthusiasm, you talked about last time about him being a perfectionist, his enthusiasm runs completely out of control. So by 1950, he's basically working on this model American small town. If you remember Marcelline, the place where he had grown up in Missouri, he basically

must to create this kind of Lilliputian Marcelline. And he has an idea that he could create a traveling exhibition called Disneylandia. And Disneylandia would be this kind of idealized miniature version of an American small town and it would have painted backdrops in the style of the... hugely popular mid-century artist Norman Rockwell. Now, Rockwell was by far the most popular painter with the masses in America in the 1940s, 1950s, 1960s and so on. More than Jackson Pollock. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So critics said, oh, Rockwell is so sentimental and so kitch and corny and whatnot. But ordinary people loved him. And that, of course, is an interesting parallel

with Disney and indeed with Disneyland. Anyway, people in the film industry, when they came to see Disney in the late 40s and early 50s, they thought he'd gone completely bonkers. They would turn up expecting to talk about films. And he'd just be messing around with miniature bottles, bottle trains and stuff. So there's the great critic of the New York Times,

Bosley Crowther. Of course, he's called Bosley Crowther. He arrives and he says, I felt really sad when I saw what had become of Walt Disney that all of his zest for invention for creating fantasies was going into these sort of silly little playthings and toys and whatnot. Do you know, I don't think that Bosley Crowther can have been that great a critic if he couldn't have seen the parallels between the train set and the films.

Yeah, well, I think you're right. And actually, the fact that it's trains, I think, is really revealing and interesting. And I think it's a clue to Disneyland's appeal. Trains in the 1940s and 1950s have a kind of a... slightly unusual image. People still see them as emblematic of speed and excitement and modernity, but of course, they're already being overtaken by air travel and by the car. Yeah. So they are simultaneously exciting. Who doesn't like riding on a train and pulling the whistle and seeing their landscape whistling past. But at the same time, they're slightly backward looking.

Well, they're kind of iconic, aren't they, of Buffalo? Yeah, late 19th century. The railroad. All of that, Exactly. Casey Jones. And I think you mentioned before, Neil Gabler's definitive really life of Walt Disney. He sees the theme of Disney's life as a craving for kind of total control. And by creating a little train set or a model train or an artificial world, he's creating his own private world, a world that is exciting but is also nostalgic and is a refuge from the pressures of the present. And also, of course, the same thing about trains is they have to stay on the tracks that have been laid down by the person who's built them. Yeah.

They can't just go off peace. There's no unrulyness to a train set, right? A train set is perfectly ordered and harmonious. And you can see why this actually would have a wider appeal in the 1940s and 1950s. So the Second World War, with all its horrors, is only just over. By the early 1950s, the Korean War is raging at a cost of at least 36,000 American lives. A war actually is largely forgotten today, but very close. traumatic at the time. There's huge anxiety about communism and the Cold War and the shadow of the

bomb. So this is the heyday of McCarthyism of the kind of hunt for traitors and enemies within and so on and so forth. Which Disney is a part of. Which Disney is a part of, exactly. And at the same time, America itself, the sort of urban and geographical fabric of America is changing so rapidly. You know, this is the age of suburbanization of interstate highways, lots of new technology, big new corporations, lots of talk at the time about the new age of the kind of mass man and mass bureaucracy. And the individual, the small scale, the backward looking and the traditional, all these things are being crushed by this sort of new age of the kind of madmen, IBM, big corporations. And also, I suppose, cars. Yeah, of course. And I guess one of the interesting

things about Disneyland is that it is one of the few places where you can't take a car and you actually You have to walk. Exactly. Yeah. A lot of people there surely have never walked before. They all looked exhausted. So how do we get from there to the amusement park? Well, Disney's friends and family all had their own theories about where the idea for an amusement

park came from. So his daughter Diane said he used to take me to Griffith Park in L.A. to the Merrigo round at the weekend. His brother Roy said, oh, I'm sure that all this came from the trains. I think that's probably wrong. I think the trains were always, you know, I think the park was always in his imagination and the trains are always a step towards that. Well, I mean, it's in Pinocchio.

I mean, that's what's so interesting, you know, the Fantasy Island park. Yeah, of course, the Pleasure Island. Which is a nightmarish vision of a park. It's kind of interesting. That's the first manifestation of a park as far as I'm aware in, you know, Disney's sinking, and it's a nightmare. Walt had always enjoyed parks. So a friend of his from Kansas City said they had been to a park called Electric Park

in Kansas City in the 1910s. Now, Electric Park, I looked this up, used to get a, million visitors a year. God, that's a lot, isn't it? It was nicknamed Kansas City's Coney Island. And he said, I remember going to Electric Park with Walt and Walt saying, gosh, as basically a teenager, Walt saying, God, I'd love to build a park one day, wouldn't you? And Gabba's biography, he says, you know, there's loads of occasions in the 1930s and 1940s where he mentioned to his animators, wouldn't it be fun one day to have a little park? You know, maybe we could have something across the road from our studio in Burbank,

across Riverside Drive. We could have a train. We could have a model village. We could have a couple of rides. I mean, if people ever wanted to come and visit the studio, because Disney is becoming a household name, we'd have something to show them and something for them to have fun with. And actually, when he went to that Chicago Railroad Fair, he was talking about what that would look like. He was saying, well, you could have a hot dog stand and you could have a,

a river boat and you could have a merry go around and all this. By the time he comes back from this railroad fare, he's really excited. And he has a tremendous sense of mission, which I think it's the first time he's had that sense of a vision and idealism and an esprit decor since working on Snow White in the late 1930s. And in 1951, he assembles his team and he says, right, I want you to go out across the country and I want you to get ideas. for a park. How would this work? They go to the Lincoln Museum in Chicago. They go to all sorts of colonial museums in New England. They go to all kinds of railroad and steamboat museums. They even go to a place I've actually been to, which is the open air museum in Colonial Williamsburg,

where everybody pretends. Like a sort of... Yeah, people dress up in costume, don't they? And talking the old English. Exactly. They're talking what they consider old English. And they bang anvils in blacksmith's shops. Well, that's what they do. in the 17th century. Exactly. And actually, American history is always a massive element

of Disneyland's appeal. I mean, actually, you know, even now, there's a kind of, there's the hall of the presidents and there's kind of an animatronic Lincoln

and all of this. And that's exactly how Walt always imagined it. But interestingly, he doesn't just send them to America. He sends them to Europe. Hooray. And in the autumn in 1951,

he sends Roy Disney, his brother, to Europe. And he says, I'd like you to go to Europe and see how they're They do things there and investigate buying amusement rides from Europe. Now, some of our listeners may be quite surprised at that,

because they will think of Disneyland as quintessentially American, and they probably will think of amusement parks as quintessentially American. But this is wrong, Tom. Is it? Yeah. Disneyland is effectively European, as I will now explain. So Euro Disney, really, it was the park coming home. I guess so, yeah.

Euro Disney, which initially wasn't very successful, because it turned out their biggest market, which was in Britain. People associated the word Euro, not with cosmopolitanism, excitement and sophistication, but with committees of people deliberating on the length of sausages. Or similar. The Maastricht Treaty ride. Exactly.

Thrills and spells. Jean-Claude. It was a Juncker experience. An animatronic. I don't know. What's his name? Herman Rumpuy, or whatever's name is. Well, now answer your questions about subsistence.

Cityarity. Brilliant. Love it. All right. So let's get into the prehistory. What's the oldest park in the world? The oldest park is in Copenhagen. And it's the world's longest operating amusement park. It is a place called Backen, which was originally just outside Copenhagen, kind of to the north, I think. And Backen had its first visitors in the 1580s. So what were they going on? Kind of merry-go-rounds, roller coasters. They were not going on rides at all. excited by the possibility of a spring. I don't know. In what way is going to look at the spring? How does that count as a theme park?

So they would go to the spring, right? People would go out and the spring for a day out. And everyone was very excited by this spring. They thought, brilliant. God, it's 15-80s and there's nothing else to do. So back in the area, kind of at various points, it's made a royal hunting ground, and then the royals, the Danish rules will say, oh, let's throw it open again. People love that spring.

But in what way is that a... An amusement park. Because so many people are going to see this spring. It attracts. You get entertainers. You get musicians setting up shop there. You get people selling food. It becomes basically a place that you go on a weekend, for example,

on a feast day or a fair day. You go for a day out from the city. You know, it's always there. And there's all kinds of attractions. So there might be some amusing Danish juggler. There might be a man selling a meat pie. There might be an animal. an amusing animal being tortured in some hideous manner.

Those long Danish days, just flown by. Exactly. So it becomes, you know, an escapist tourist destination. But that's not the most famous amusement park, is it? No. In Copenhagen. So it's still going today, but in 1843, back in God, arrival. And this was a much more famous park, but much closer to Copenhagen,

though at the time, just outside the city walls. And it's a park I've been to, actually, many times. Yeah, I love it. The Tivoli Gardens. So Tivoli was developed by a former Danish army officer called Georg Cartonson. And it had lots of elements right from the beginning from the 1840s that are very familiar at Tivoli today and indeed at many amusement parks today. It had flower gardens. It had a restaurant.

It had cafes. It had a theatre. It had a bandstand. It had fireworks displays. And the general vibe, which will be, if you've been to Tivoli, you will recognise, it's slightly exotic and kind of orientalist. Because they're opening, Disney are opening a new park, aren't they, in the Gulf? Oh, they? Yeah.

And I wonder whether there will be an orientalist vibe there. Maybe there'd be an Occidentalist vibe. That would be an interesting twist. It would be quite a fun, wouldn't it? Yeah. Timber-framed cottages or something. Yeah. Anyway, Tivoli from the beginning had rides.

So Tivoli had a merry-go round and it had a scenic railway. We'll come back to the rides and the history of rides in a second. But most writers who have discussed the history of Disneyland agree that Tivoli is the single biggest inspiration. It is by far the most obvious model. And Disney sent his staff there multiple times. And one of the things that makes it such an obvious model is that Tivoli from the beginning had a very strong fairy tale element to it. And that's down to Hans Christian Anderson. Hans Christian Anderson was a friend of Georg Cartonson. He visited Tivoli during its very first season and he was inspired by Tivoli's Chinese pavilion to write his fairy tale,

the Nightingale. And there's actually now Hans Christian Anderson rides actively, and you can't really miss his influence when you go. Well, I mean, this is all very interesting. We've had quite a lot of America. We've had quite a lot of Denmark. But I feel what is lacking so far in this episode, no offence, is Britain. Yeah, you're not wrong. Surely there's some British influence. Of course there is. Isn't there? Because we are a patriotic podcast, and I'm very pleased to tell the listeners that Disneyland is effectively British. It's a British creation. Because Disneyland is modelled on Tivoli, and Tivoli's original name was actually Tivoli and Vauxhall. Now, the Tivoli bit alludes to the Gendar de Tivoli in Paris, a public park, a garden.

But Vauxhall is Britain, South London, the Vauxhall Pleasure Gardens, the most influential pleasure park, I would say, in human history. Well, it's great to have Vauxhall, which is the tube station that serves the Oval on the podcast. Great to get the Oval back on the rest of history. Right. That's the last time we'll be mentioning the Oval in this podcast. So Vauxhall. Vauxhall began as the new Spring Gardens on the South Bank of the Thames. The date that it opened is unclear, but it was almost certainly around the time of the restoration.

In 1662, Samuel Peepes describes a visit to what he calls. Fox Hall, where I had not been a great while. And he and his wife collect flowers, and he says, we had cakes and salt beef and ale, and so home again by water with much pleasure. So they've obviously been for an outing. In 1667, five years later, the great sort of biographer and antiquarian John Aubrey records that the restoration era spy and double agent and inventor Samuel Morland built a house in the Vauxhall Pleasure Gardens, made of looking glass and fountains very pleasant to behold.

And there are all these sort of little trace descriptions of something going on in Vauxhall and the south bank of the Thames in the late 17th century. That's fun. That's basically, that's the point. Yeah, that it's fun. And people are going there for a day out. And it's hard to pin down exactly what they're going for because there aren't really detailed descriptions until the 18th century. And by the 18th century, we do have a very clear sense of this is one of London's great tourist attractions.

So now it has a proper sort of Walt Disney style entrepreneur in charge of it called Jonathan Tyers. And the reason I compare him with Walt Disney is that like Disney, Tyers is a kind of mid-market populist. So he's interested in throwing it open to as many people as possible, but with caveats. So he charges a shilling to get in. It doesn't sound like much, but I looked it up, the academic website measuring worth, in relative income terms, a shilling is the equivalent of about 150 pounds today, a lot of money, but almost exactly the same as what you would pay for a one-day ticket to Disneyland in Anaheim right

now. So it's keeping riff-raff out. You know, it's a proper event. You know, you don't go lightly. You go because it's a long you know, conceived trip, very exciting moment. And it will appeal to respectable people because the price of a shilling means you can be pretty confident there will not be the likes of the young Emma Hamilton. Correct. There will not be thieves and footpads and ruffians.

Yeah, and people of easy virtue. So what is it that they've got there? They've got musicians. They've got entertainers. There's lots of fireworks. There are Chinese lanterns. The Chinese lanterns are a huge part of this, actually. People would often comment on the excitement

of walking down the kind of the darkened paths illuminated at every turn by these lanterns. This then inspires a theme park in Russia, in St. Petersburg, and there's a railway station next to it called Vauxhall. And so the Russian word for railway station is Vauxhall. Vauxhall, yeah, exactly. Amazing. So they have more and more attractions. By the early 19th century, there are organs, there are multiple orchestras, there's a theatre,

there are hot air balloons, you would go in. you would see high wire acts, jugglers, there'd be puppet shows. The price has now gone up to three shillings, so it's pretty expensive. I think it's where the first giraffe is displayed in England. Is that right? I think so. You love a giraffe. You love a giraffe. Yeah, I do. Great to get a giraffe back on the show. Dickens went. It features briefly in Thackeray's novel Vanity Fair and so on and so forth. However, the temptation is always to go down market and that's exactly what happens. So chasing profits in the middle of the 19th century, Vauxhall's new proprietors, they basically lost some of the respectability. It got a reputation for bawdy behavior,

for drinking, for late-night parties. And it ended up basically being threatened with losing its licenses, and it closed in 1859. Well, now, I mean, you mentioned sex dungeons. There was a, there's a club there, I think, called dungeon or something like that. Right. But that's nice to know. So, you see, every time you drive, you know, across from North London, going down to Brixton, it always used to be there. Right. Well, have you ever been? No, I haven't, but I always kind of wondered.

Right. Well, that's a lovely, possible destination for a rest of history Christmas outing. Maybe for the Aphistans. So, yeah, exactly. So there's one thing, obviously, that Vauxhall is missing that actually back and didn't have either, as you pointed out, which is rides. Now, the thing is, I'm guessing most, I'm guessing everybody, you listen to this podcast. has been on a ride at some point in their life, if only is a very small child.

I think if my father is listening, he's never been on a ride, but apart from him. Surely he's been on a roundabout or some sort of... I can't imagine it. Well, but I'm also guessing that almost nobody has ever thought, gosh, rides have a history. Where do rides come from? No. Because you just take them for granted and you think of them as frivolous. So let's start with the first ride that most people ever take, the first sort of sophisticated ride.

And that's normally, I would say, probably a merry-go-round or a carousel. You know, the horse is going up and down. So the word carousel, a French word, and it originally meant this sort of test of skill during a tournament. So the claim is that you read everywhere is that this began, this was imported from the Saracens during the Crusades. They would ride on their horses, and they would basically spear with a lance, a ring that was hanging from a post. a tree. It's a kind of standard element of tournament activity in a children's history book. And in early modern Europe, this activity evolved into a much more formalized kind of display. So it's a little bit like dressage or something. So we know that, for example,

in 1662, in the summer of 1662, Louis XIV, held a big kind of carousel occasion in the courtyard of the Twillery Palace. And people were kind of riding up and down, and they were trying to collect these rings with their lances. And to this day, that square is called, which is now by the Louvre, is called the Place Du Carcocel. The game spread, well, the sort of the exhibition spread in popularity. By the 18th century, people are doing it in fares all over Europe. And people have developed, basically, I suspect because it's cheaper, a sort of very

primitive mechanical dimension. So you will sit on a kind of a wooden horse. Their wooden horses are suspended in a circle from a kind of axis and a central pole, rather like on a modern carousel. But they are rotated, obviously not by electricity or whatever. They're rotated by animals or basically by people just pulling on a rope. So there's some poor bloke sweating profusely pulling you while you're going round and round. It suddenly struck me. In John Wesley's house in London, he rode around everywhere preaching and all that stuff.

and that he had a mechanical horse. It was kind of the equivalent of an exercise bike. So he'd sit in it in the morning. It would go up and down, up and down. Yeah. And it would exercise his thighs and give him the strength to continue riding. So that is also part of the carousel, isn't it? That the horses go up and down.

So presumably that's where that is coming from. Yeah. So that idea of, I mean, that's such an 18th century thing, isn't it? The idea of, you know, some mechanical contraption that you'll exercise on. Yeah. And some mad inventor has developed that basically, and you don't think of that being the ancestor of, you know, the roller coaster, Alton Towers or something, but that's exactly what it is. No, it hadn't crossed my mind when I saw it, but now you have enlightened me. Oh, that's wonderful.

For which many thanks. So the first proper mechanical carousel comes from the Napoleonic Wars. And this was a creation quite literally of Merlin of a man called Jean-Josef Merlin, who was an inventor who had moved from Lijge to London in the 1760s. and he was a big name at the time. I mean, he's completely forgotten today, but he was a very big name in the late 18th century. He was nicknamed the ingenious mechanic. And he made clocks, he made automata,

kind of robotic machines of various kinds. He made organs and pianos. He invented a self-repelled wheelchair. He invented a pedal-operated revolving tea table. And this is an amazing fact. he invented rollerblades so he was the first person to invent the line of wheels the thin line of wheels on a shoe or boot and he opened on a mechanical museum in hanover square which in the 1780s and 1790s was a very fashionable place to go for coffee and we know from traveller's accounts there's one from i think 1804 looking back at a journey he made a german traveler in 1803 and this bloke said i went to this place i couldn't believe it i went in there was a carousel it was completely mechanical, you'd go in that with a coffee and you'd sit on this horse and it would kind of go round and round, while an organ played a concerto.

So, yeah, that basically is the experience they're going on a merry-go round. However, it was just a private toy. It was only for people who went to Merlin's museum. The man who made carousels for the masses was a Lancastrian, like our co-founder of Goulanger, a Tony Paster. So another great populist. This was a bloke called Thomas Bradshaw, who was an inventor from Bolton,

and he built a carousel with a steam engine, which is a big innovation. And he probably unveiled it in Bolton on New Year's Day, 1861. And then we have the first full account two years later. He took it to Halifax. And the local paper described it as,

and I quote, I was going to do the accent. Maybe I will do the accent. Hey, hey, hey, it's a rounder out of huge proportions driven by a steam engine which whirled around with such impetuosity that the wonder is the daring riders are not shut off like cannonballs

and driven half into the middle of next month. They're not drinking coffee by this point. No, definitely not. So, that's Bradshaw with this steam-powered carousel. Now, he's actually just preparing the way for an even greater man. And this is the Walt Disney of Kings Lynn. Fred Savage, are you familiar with?

with Fred Savage's life and career, Tom? I think he clearly invents Disneyland, doesn't he? It should really be called Savage Land. It should. So he was born into a family of Weavers in 1828. He never really learned to read and write. His father was transported to Tasmania for poaching. And he began work as a farm labourer when he was 10.

But after his father disappeared, he needed more money. So he was apprenticed to a local machine maker. And he proved to be very good at making machines. He sets up his own business, making farm machinery, and then he diversifies into steam-powered fairground machinery. And Fred Savage becomes, by the 1880s, he is, without doubt, the most innovative and influential maker of rides in the world. So if I give you just three examples of his great rides, there was a roundabout called

Sea on Land, where you'd sit in like a boat and it would pitch and toss as though you're on the waves. I mean, this is basically like you see at most fairgrounds, right? They have this ride. There was a steam-driven carousel, which was kind of the definitive carousel. It was called the Platform Gallupers. He had the idea of having you go up and down on coloured poles, you know, the bright colours and stuff, and the organ playing.

And this then was copied all over the world, the Platform Gallopers. And then the most influential ride, so we at Disneyland have been on a ride very like this. It was called Switchbacks. and it was in 1888 and this had you sat in a kind of gilded car and a carriage and the carers raced around an undulating track. So the car's ride at Disneyland

is basically just an updated version of the switchbacks ride. Amazing. And he was a huge figure in Kings Lynn. He became the mayor of Kings Lynn. There is a statue of him in Kingsland to this day. So that's very exciting. No one would pull that down.

No. He sounds great. Do you know who actually, love him is my cousin Simon, who he makes Victorian fairground attractions and paints them. He's a magnificent artist and kind of tinkerer. Well, that's exciting. Maybe he already knows about Fred Savage. I'd like to think he does. Probably does. I'll ask him. But there's one thing that Fred Savage can't take credit for. And in fact, I'm sorry to say that we in Britain can't take any credit for at all. And that's the roller coaster. So the roller coaster has a

mad history, a very unexpected history. Roller coasters originated in 18th century, Tsarist, Russia. So basically, how it worked was in palaces outside St. Petersburg, in the age of Catherine the Great, serfs and servants would build these kind of undulating hills of ice so that their masters and mistresses could go to boggaining. Because it's all very flat, isn't it? It is flat, so that's why they'd build these mountains. And the mountains were called Catalaya Gorka, sliding mountains.

and they'd sometimes be 80 feet high and they would be sort of buttressed with wooden supports and over time the Russian abilities say well I enjoy this so much I'd like to do it in the summer when there's no ice so they build summer versions and they do them not with toboggins but with carts with wheels that roll down grooved tracks so the most famous one was a ride called the Riding Mountain it was built at Sarskoia Sello

the country retreat of the Tsars under Catherine the Great by Rastrelli the architect who did the Winter Palace. What's the health and safety? Listen, if Catherine the Great comes off that ride, you're in massive trouble. You cannot take any risk. I am not going to go on a ride

that's been built in 18th century Russia. No way. What about 19th century Paris? So by the early 19th century, these have been copied in Paris. And the first one is called the Montagne-Rousse, Russian Mountains. And there's also one called Promenade Erieen. and they were both installed in an amusement park in 1817 off the Chonseilise.

And again, these have these wheeled cars running in grooves. You would tow your car to the top of a slope. You'd release it. It would whizz around the track. Louis, the 18th, came to see it. He came to see it, but he refused to ride in it. I'd very much doubt he could have fitted in it. Well, he's a very large man.

Yeah, he would have... The whole system would have crashed, splintered into timber beneath it. Unlike you at Disneyland, he thought it was beneath his dignity. But you did not. I piled in. Exactly. And what turns these things into a proper roller coaster is the addition of steam. And that, I have to say, is an American innovation.

Oh, that's the shame. So this, I mean, the place, you couldn't make this up. I mean, American names is just absolutely insane. So the first railway that does this was called the Mork Chow. It was called the Mork Chunk Switchback Railway. It sounds like a pet food. And if you think that's bad, the town that it was, that it was building, was called, the town that it was built in, the town that it was built in was called Jim Thorpe. Who, who, who, who, who founded the town of Jim Thorpe, Dominic?

Who could possibly say, very modest, very modest man. The town is called Jim Thorpe, Pennsylvania. And it's the Mork Chunk Switchback Railway. It was a sort of mining railway. but they called it the gravity road because it went so steeply downhill. And by 1870, the company that ran the Mork Chunk Railway decided that instead of using it for its proper purpose,

they would throw it open to tourists who were visiting Jim Thorpe. Where are you spending your vacation? Jim Thorpe. Not again. No, less a person, the Ulysses-S. Grant. Oh, the corrupt and boring president. Yeah, the corrupt and boring president

of the United States, he traveled on it. So people hear the news of this Gravity Railway. They're like, brilliant, love it. And this bloke, another man who was called LaMarcus Adna Thompson. Where the hell did he come from? God knows. He built his own version called the Gravity Switchback Railway at Coney Island in the 1880s. And it was La Marcus Adna Thompson, who came up with the idea of you would travel against painted backdrops.

So you basically pretend you're in the Swiss Alps or something. And from there, you soon get moved towards having loops, so in other words, going upside down. Again, Coney Island leads the way on that. So the amusingly named Flip Flap Railway, which opened in 1895, has a loop so that you go upside down. And then there are basically versions in amusement parks all over the world in the next 30 to 40 years, which is kind of the golden age of roller coasters.

Actually, we think of it as now, but there are probably more roller coasters than the 1920s than there are right now. They all have one thing in common and they have that in common with Catherine the Great's riding mountain which you distrust. They are all made of wood.

So the very first steel roller coaster was not open until 1959. It is called the Matterhorn bobsleds. I believe Tabby has ridden on it because where does it open, Tom? It opens at Disneyland. Disneyland. You know, I'd completely forgotten about Disneyland.

Yeah. Well, finally got back on track, as it were. So let's have a quick break now. And when we come back, we will be in 1950s, California. And we'll be finding out what has happened to Walt Disney's theme park. To all who come to this happy place, welcome. Disneyland is your land. Here, age, relives, fond, memories of the past, and here youth may savor the challenge and promise of the future. Disneyland is dedicated to the ideals, the dreams, and the hard facts that have created America, with the hope that it will be a source of joy and inspiration to all the world. I don't know if that's how Walt Disney spoke, but in my version it is, because that was Walt Disney and he was unveiling his park to the world's press on the 17th of July, 1995. And Dominic, in those words, are lots of the themes that we would associate with Disneyland today.

So kind of looking backwards, lots of sepia-tinged nostalgia, but also the excitement of the future, and there's idealism, and there's this kind of patriotic sense that American history is something to be celebrated. Exactly, yeah. So we finally got back to Disneyland, and before we get to the opening day, let's backtrack a little to explain how we got to 1955. So we left the story with Walt sending his emissaries to Europe to get inspiration from Tivoli and indeed from Vauxhall, if only indirectly. And they have returned full of ideas, and they get down to work in the early 1950s.

The plan is going to have to change, A, because it's much grander than before, Walt wants something huge, but also because the city authorities in Burbank say, look, we don't want a children's entertainment park via the studios. You're going to have to look somewhere else. So Walt commissions this study to find a new site. And they report to him in the summer of 1953, and they say, look, Greater Los Angeles, because of the huge suburbanization in Eisenhower's America, is expanding at a vast rate. And the highest rate of growth is expected to be, in suburban Orange County, which is just south of Los Angeles.

Now, there are a couple of interesting things about Orange County. One, it already has a theme park called Knott's Berry Farm, which lots of our American listeners will have heard of, which is basically a farm shop that's built its own ghost town, fake ghost town as an attraction. What do you mean a ghost town? A town with ghost, like Scooby-Doo, or... A sort of abandoned, like, western town.

Miners Town. Yeah, a saloon and stuff. but I think there was also a more spectral element to it. Yeah. I mean, now there's loads of rides and things. It's very popular. So with sinister janitors who turn out to be faking ghosts, that kind of thing. Exactly.

I mean, I have to say an absolutely preposterous name for a theme park, Nottsbury Farm. It's not that scary, is it? But very popular in America. The other thing about Orange County is a hugely symbolic place in post-war American politics. It's the birthplace of Richard Nixon, but it is the heartland of kind of Barry Goldwater, Ronald Reagan, conservatism. There's a whole book called Suburban Warriors by historical Lisa McGur, all about Orange County

as the sort of petri dish in which modern American conservatism was made. Anyway, it's here that Walt Disney decides he'll have his park. He buys 160 acres of orange groves in Anaheim, and he says, right, now we have to pay for it. Now, the budget for Disneyland ends up ballooning to $17 million. That's the equivalent of about $620 million today in terms of. a construction project. So he doesn't have anything like this money. And the way he does it, which you described last time, is TV. He signs a deal with ABC. They will pump cash effectively into his park. And in return, he will make programs, 26 programs a year for them. And this is,

as you said before, it's the first time a Hollywood studio, rather than seeing television as the enemy, has got into bed with them. And that show, Disneyland, which is the first show. It's a brilliant advert for his new park. And it's a colossal, colossal hit. The only show on TV that is more popular than its repeats is I Love Lucy, the Lucille Ball sitcom. And as you described last time, this is the show that makes Walt himself a public personality. So people get to see kind of Uncle Walt. Now, meanwhile, his team are racing to finish this park.

And the timescale is bonkers by modern standards. So they broke ground on the 17th of July, 1954. And Walt basically said to them, I think a year should do it. Wow. You know, you've got 365 days. Loads of problems. They're problems with the soil. They have problems with the unions.

Oh, those pesky unions again. Yeah, he hates the unions. Problems with plumbing, all of this. Walt is always changing his plans. So he's always saying, why don't we put this here? Why don't we build something else here? Well, exactly like Snow White. Yeah.

Why don't you spend seven months working on an entertaining thing involving teacups? No, I'm not going to have that. Let's cut it. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. We should actually give a shout out to the person who really runs the project, who's ended up being airbrushed from Disney's history. And this was the general director who was called C.V. Wood. And he'd run the study. He'd basically been charged at the Research Institute that did the study that said, do it in Orange County in Anaheim. And he was brilliant at

organizing the project, but he fell out with Walt and he was fired. And he was basically erased from Disney's history, which is very sad. Oh, so something that Disney would have had been common with Chris Jeff. Yeah, erasing people from history. That's true. I hadn't thought of that. It's a nice, yeah, the commissar vanishing. So we'll get into later on what the design of Disneyland is and what it kind of means.

But some of the themes of its history are there from the very beginning. So first of all, Walt is always really clear that it is not just an amusement park. It's basically a theme park. And the difference is, if you go to an amusement park and you don't go on any rides, you know, you're in for a very boring time because there's nothing else to do. Whereas, as we know, having been, you can go to Disneyland and actually spend the day without going on a single ride. Because you can see all the other attractions. You can go to the shops.

You can go to the cafes. You can just relax and enjoy yourself. There's parades. There's fireworks. So we went to the Star Wars area, didn't we? And there was a bar like the one in Star Wars. And we were entertained by watching Theo be arrested by a couple of stormtroopers. Exactly.

Which I thought was actually for me, the single best moment in the whole visit. And the whole of the history, the rest of history, no? And actually, we will return to that moment in a second. Excellent. So it's a land. It's place unto itself in a way that Vauxhall and Tivoli never were. And it's immersive. So every detail has to be right.

You know, there's an argument at one point where they're going to use cut glass or stained glass. Stain glass, obviously. Yeah, and Walt says it's got to be stained glass. Every detail has to be perfect. Who cares how much it costs? So that's what partly explains the commercialism that we associate with Disney and Disneyland. So the sponsorship, for example, he's got sponsorship deals with American Motors with Richfield Oil with a swift meatpacking company because he needs to pay for all of this

attention to detail. And who's he going to get to work in this? Well, this is crucial. So I think this is one of the most inspired things actually about Disneyland. Walt Disney said, you know, this is not just a park. I want people to think of this as a movie set, which we'll get onto later. And so the staff are not employees, they are cast members. And that term is still used entirely unironically by Disney today.

Yeah, so we saw Mary Poppins when we're walking around, but also famously there's Mickey Mouse and Theo's friend, Goofy, and all these kind of characters. Yeah, and the Stormtroopers or whatever. So they're obviously actors, but all the kind of the people who are there to help, they are cast as actors as well. Exactly. And they are playing a part as well in a way because they have to be perfectly turned out. They're all smiling. They're incredibly polite. There's a very strict dress code. And no facial hair. That's the mad thing because Walt has a mustache. And also there's no smoking.

And if there's one thing everyone knows about Disney, he loves a cigarette. Yeah. And also, no fat people. So the very first manager of Adventureland, which is part of the park. You said later, what was always really mean to me and basically made it very clear that he didn't really want me in his park because I was so large. doesn't like fat guys. So the other thing is the slight suspicion that's hung over Disneyland is did they all have to be white? And that's not really true. So Walt Disney had always employed Asian American artists and illustrators.

But that said, as late as 1963, so civil rights groups are still petitioning the Disney organization and saying to them, can you please guarantee that there will be more black employees. And the Disney organization said, yeah, we'll think about it. But it's actually not clear whether that really had an impact and actually how much changed and how long it took. Anyway, back to the story. The big day approaches the 17th of July, massive excitement. Walt has been promoting it on ABC. ABC themselves have taken out expensive full-page adverts in the newspapers. Right up to the deadline, Walt is tinkering with his park. Of course he is. He's riding the train is saying the shops need to be different and all this kind of thing.

Four days early, he has his 30th wedding anniversary, and he uses that as a very, very soft opening. He invites his closest friends and some big Hollywood stars like Carrie Grant and Gary Cooper to a party at the Golden Horseshoe Saloon, which is still there, actually. And then 17th of July, the big day dawns. And the funny thing about it is that in many ways, it's total and utter chaos. So first of all, C.V. Wood has sent out 15,000 invitations because it's invitation only. But loads of people print out counterfeit, fake invitations, and get in. And loads of other people basically lean ladders against the fence climb over the ladder to get in,

much like people used to do at rock festivals and things. There's a heat wave in Southern California, so the temperature hits 101 degrees Fahrenheit. Wasn't there some issue with the water supply? And Walt had to choose between flushing toilets and fountains. And he opts for the toilets, I think, correctly. But then people complain, and they say the water fountains aren't really working because there's been a plumbing strike.

Oh, it has unions again. Pesky unions. There's a gas leak. The refreshment stands run out of food and drink. Famously, the newly laid asphalt, the tarmac, melts. So people's, if you're wearing high heels, they get stuck, which is very funny. The TV broadcast, which is watched by a colossal number of people, Neil Gabler, record. and 70 million Americans.

The TV broadcast is a bit of a disaster. Ronald Reagan is one of the three presenters. Yeah. Well, Reagan introduces Disney when he makes that thing with which we open this section. Yeah. Yeah.

And now Walt Disney will step forward to read the dedication of Disneyland. So Ronald Reagan is very Disney in his appeal, isn't he, in his ethos? So Disney. He misses his line, forgets his lines, it all goes horribly wrong.

However, Walt is absolutely. delighted with the day. Everybody says at the time, you know, he seems so happy. Well, happiness is the word, isn't it? Because in that opening speech, he says, to all who come to this happy place, welcome. Yeah. And that's the essence of it for him. He wants people to be happy. The happiest place on earth. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. And actually the press coverage, although the, you know, some of the press said there were quite a few, you know, missed cues and things that went wrong, most of the press coverage was pretty admiring and people said, this is an extraordinary place, an extraordinary achievement. And actually, if you look at the stats,

the first week, 160,000 visitors, by mid-August, 1955, so it's been open now for probably a month, it's had half a million. By the end of September, one million. By its first anniversary, so it's been open 12 months, July 1956, 4 million. By the end of 1957, 10 million. And at that point, by the end of 1957, it's been open for 18 months, it is a bigger attraction than, Yellowstone or Yosemite or the Grand Canyon. It is already, after just 18 months, taken its place in the kind of the wonders of the United States, a place that everybody dreams of going. And it's fascinating that all those sites that you listed are parks, their natural wonders.

And of course, the essence of Disneyland is its complete artificiality. Exactly. So we'll get on to just in the final minutes of the episode. It's meaning, but just on Walt Disney himself. he never stopped. He spent day after day at the park. He had this special apartment built here with the fire station. It's kind of pastiche of Gilded Age America,

kind of lots of velvet, lots of lace. And he would stand there at the window looking out, and people would see him. And they'd say he often looked kind of visibly moved, even tearful as he watched these crowds. And there's a lantern kept a light there to this day, isn't it? Yeah, exactly. Yeah, they're kind of a very Disney detail.

He said to interviewers, you know, it's not finished, It will never be finished. It's a project that, you know, it's a live, breathing thing. He's always thinking of gondolas and monorails and new rides. So of the iconic rides that are still there today, the Tom Sawyer Island, that opened in 1956, the Matterhorn was 1959, and the Pirates of the Caribbean, which inspired the films. So that was the last ride that Disney designed, and it opened in 1967, a year after his death. So he never got to ride on it, Tom, but we have.

We did, didn't we? And before the park could actually open. Doesn't get more Walt Disney than that. I don't want to excite people too much, but there may be a piece of content arriving on YouTube that actually shows us riding the Pirates the Caribbean ride. So that would be fun for people to see. Now, I don't want to tantalize people too much,

but if you look on YouTube tomorrow, so Friday, you will see a thrilling footage of me and Tom and a special guest riding the Pirates of the Caribbean attraction. And wasn't that fun, Tom? Amazing. One of the great moments in your life, surely. It was all about happiness. It was. So by the end of the 50s, Disney's ambitions have got even greater. He's thinking about something even bigger, a city, not just a theme park, a city. And he gets his executives to buy 27,000 acres of land in Florida. And to put that into context, that is an area the size of Manchester, England, an area twice

the size of Manhattan. America. Yeah, Manhattan, America. Just to clarify for people who may be geographically confused. For Australian listeners. And that is what becomes Disney World. So his plan for Disney World is, you know, he says, well, I suppose they'll have to have another amusement park.

But really, my heart isn't in the amusement park. Yeah, because he's moved on now. He's done his amusement park. So now he wants to do his urban planning. He wants a utopian city for his workers. And it will be modelled. Once again, I'm happy to say Disney World, like Disneyland, is essentially British. Because it is modelled on the garden cities of the Edwardian planner, Sir Ebenezer Howard.

So if you want to see an example of Disney World, merely go to Letchworth or Welling Garden City, which are the garden cities based on Howard's ideas because that's what Walt Disney was all about. The Epcot of the home counties. The Epcot of the home counties. So unfortunately for him, he died and then his vision was dialed down and we ended up being dialed down

to one of the lands of Disney World, which is Epcot. It's such a shame, isn't it? And then Upcott now, basically it lingered because it was a massive kind of educational world's fair and nobody wanted to really go. They wanted to go on the rides.

So now it does have rides. It has a ratatooie ride, a frozen ride, and a Guardians of the Galaxy ride. So that's much more exciting. Anyway, Disney World is much bigger, but there's always something very special about Disneyland. It has always fascinated postmodern theorists.

Especially in Europe, isn't it? Yeah. So part of this, I think, is because of its eclecticism, but also because of the emphasis and kind of fantasy and stuff. We kind of basically invents the idea of postmodernism, different architectural styles mingling together. It does. So Umberto Echo.

the author of the Name of the Rose, the great Italian sort of postmodernist theorist. He wrote at length about Pirates the Caribbean ride, which we've been on, and the Haunted Mansion Ride, which I think Tabby may have been on. And he said of Disneyland that it was the Sistine Chapel of America, an allegory of the consumer society, a place of absolute iconism, a place of total passivity. Then you have Jean-Baudria. Oh, brilliant.

A French philosopher on the rest of history. We love it. Pile in. Let's get Bojo on the show. He said Disneyland is the supreme example of hyper-reality. And the point of Disneyland, he said, basically, with its artifice and its fantasy, it's to trick us into thinking that the rest of America is real. So French.

So Disneyland is presented as imaginary in order to make us believe that the rest is real, when in fact, all of Los Angeles and the America surrounding it are no longer real, but of the order of the hyper-real and of simulation. and it continues at great length. I'm not entirely persuaded by Baudrear's argument. I think Los Angeles probably is real. And also I'm not persuaded that Disney visitors are passive, as we shall see. It's expressive of, I guess,

something that's being characteristic of Europeans looking at Disney's films and then of his scene parks for ages, which is a kind of absolute fascination intermingled with a kind of snobbery as well. Yeah, a snobbish contempt. A snobbish contempt, which I think, I certainly don't share myself. Well, you're a man of the people.

Well, having been to Disney World as a punter, and as a parent and a punter, I have to say, it was an extremely enjoyable holiday, and I heartily recommend it to people. Something that I denied my own children. Yeah, he did. What does that tell you? Hatrens of all is so much more fun.

What can I say? So just a couple of aspects of Disneyland that struck me on our recent trip. First of all is, if you went as we did, having immersed yourself in the story of Walt Disney, in the biographies of him and so on. When you get there, it's very obvious how much this is based on one man's personal story and one man's personal genius.

So as Neil Gabler points out in his biography, when you enter the park, you arrive in kind of Main Street, USA. And this is very obviously an idealised vision of Walt Disney's boyhood in small town, Marcelline, Missouri. And you walk down the main street and you get to Sleeping Beauty's Castle. And that's the kind of architectural embodiment of the fantasy, the idealism, the ambition that's always drawn him on. And then at the castle, you have a choice of paths, different lands.

So it's fantasy land, adventure land, frontier land, tomorrow land. And those are all in their different ways. Hollywood pop cultural genres of the 1940s and 1950s, the Western, the adventure story, the fantasy, the science fiction story and so on. So I think that takes us to the next point, which is that the park is very obviously, as we've already mentioned, a Hollywood film set. A lot of the attractions, even the older attractions, to a way that we don't really notice now, are modelled on films of mid-century America. So the Western saloon is directly copied from a saloon in the Doris Day film, Calamity Jane. The jungle cruise that you can go on is model on the Humphrey Bogart film, The African Queen.

And the point is, you're meant to feel like you are in a film. So that moment, the greatest moment in the history of the rest is history, when Bob Eager got his staff to tell the stormtroopers to arrest Theo Young Smith for loitering. And the stormtroopers told Theo off and he looked really sheepish and guilty. Well, he was obviously running guns for whatever it is, the resistance. And they say something like to him. say, don't you want to, do you want to get in trouble again? And Theo says very weakly, no.

That was the best thing I'm a freedom fighter. But he lives to fight another day, to be fair. I guess the other thing just to emphasize is, you say it's like being in a film set. You cannot see outside the park. Once you're in the park, you are surrounded by sets. Total immersion. The rides themselves are stories. This will surprise people who haven't been to Disneyland.

The rides are not like the rides are normal parks, especially when you're, do the queue, you know, there's a whole series of kind of tableau. So the rise of the resistance, the Star Wars ride, which we, we didn't do. But the Star Wars ride, for example, that we did, the rise of the resistance, you feel like you're in a story, right? I mean, I remember the thing you're saying to me afterwards, I've always wanted to be in Star Wars and now I am. That's the whole point of the show. The other interesting thing, just as in a film set, they're doing all kinds of tricks with the proportions. So on the main street, the shops on the bottom floor a nine-tenths of normal size.

And then as you go up, they are eight-tenths, seven-tenths, and so on and so forth. Now, this was really deliberate. Walt said to his designers, I want it to feel a little bit like you're in a toy, you know, that you have a, I want to heighten the sense of nostalgia because the past always feels smaller and quainter. He says, at one point to his designers, he says, big build, I don't want big buildings. Big buildings are four dictators. big buildings make you feel small. I want people to feel empowered. And when I read that, I had a look at other buildings built at the same time.

And as luck would have it, five days after Disneyland, one of the absolute emblematic buildings of the communist block in the Cold War was opened in Warsaw. This was a building called the Palace of Culture and Science. It kind of towered over Warsaw. People said it was Stalin's gift to the people of Poland. The people of Poland hated it. And it wasn't entirely dissimilar in ethos from Disneyland because it had a swimming pool, it had a cinema, it had theaters, it had a museum. It was meant to be a kind of palace of leisure.

But the effect could not have been more different. So this building, this very Orwellian building, completely dominated the landscape and the sort of cityscape. And it completely dwarfed the individual. You felt intimidated and crushed by it. Disneyland never has that effect on you. No, and so confirming Walt's darker suspicions of Bolsheviks, Dominic. Quite right. Well, you see, this is the other thing.

Disneyland is nothing, if it's, if not, a heartfelt tribute to American patriotism. So this is the animatronic Abraham Lincoln and all that. Abraham Lincoln. The ethos of Disneyland, I feel, is very Eisenhower era. It's the nostalgic small-town conservatism on one hand, and the sort of innocent faith in the possibilities of the future on the other. And it wears that kind of Eisenhower era Americanism so heavily. So if you go to Tivoli, we've both been to Tivoli, you can go to Tivoli and you can

kind of forget you're in Denmark. I mean, I know there's Hans Christian Anderson, but in all other respects, you know, it could be in the Netherlands or in Sweden or in Vauxhall, in Vauxhall, exactly. There is no way you could go to Disneyland in California and doubt that you're in an American creation. I mean, the Americanness is everywhere, almost every ride, even the ones with British themes, you know, reek of American, Americanness, American patriotism and so on. So that's why Peel Travers hated it when Walt took her there. And so to go back one more time to the Cold War era, I think in the smallness, in the individualism and the American patriotism, it's very much a product at that time.

But there's also the sense of order and harmony and reassurance that I think reflects. the values of the day as well. So to compare it once again with Vauxhall, the Vauxhall Pleasure Gardens in the 18th and 19th century, the organisers tried to keep kind of disorder and the lower orders obey by charging a shilling and later three shillings. But there was always a suspicion that kind of, you know,

reality was breaking in. You know, there were darken corners where people were drinking or they were sneaking off for erotic assignations. There was always the possibility of hedonism, and unrulyness. And that's true, I think, with a lot of parks, gaggles of teenagers who've been, you know, necking gin or something. Well, it's why, I suppose, when Euro-Disney opens,

there's no alcohol on sale, because that has to be guarded against. Right. Your wholesomeness. Yeah. I mean, Coney Island, Blackpool Pleasure Beach, those are places where you go and you have fun, and there's always a suspicion that nautinus may ensue. Nortiness may ensue.

That's never going to happen at Disneyland. So the future American ambassador to Britain, Nixon's ambassador to Britain, Walter Annenberg, who was a publisher, when he went to Disneyland, he said, if there's one word that sums it up, that word is wholesomeness. And he's not wrong. So, for example, the cleanniness is a huge part of Disneyland's ethos. Walt Disney used to go around picking up litter himself. And actually, when we were there, Tom, I noticed, out of the corner of my eye, Bob Iger, the head of Disney, stop. reaching into the kind of gutter or something and picking up, you know, a bit of litter and putting it in the bin. You know, this sort of almost as an instinctive kind of

reflex. And I think what that reflects is that there is an ethos of total order. Nothing unexpected can ever happen at Disneyland. You know, people always say, if you're ever going to lose your child, lose your child at Disneyland because there's absolutely no way that anything bad can happen and you know your child will be returned to you. And that, of course, is what more high-brow critics always dislike it because high-brow critics tend to like disorder. You know, they kind of privilege unrulyness and hedonism and all those kinds of things. And they find Disneyland too managed and too perfect. But of course, that's what ordinary punters like about it.

There's a collection of essays by somebody called Carol Ann Marling. And she talks about the Disney parks. She says it's the architecture of reassurance. You know, there's no writh angles. it's all loops, it's all kind of curves. Like Mickey's ears. Yeah, like Mickie's ears, exactly. It all feels kind of comforting.

It feels like there is a gentle, sort of paternalistic order that is governing everything. And some people find that cloying and off-putting, but frankly, if you go there with an eight-year-old or something, you absolutely crave. Maybe you don't because you take them to Adrian's Wall where they look miserable in the rain. But I loved going to Disney World as a parent.

Because I thought it's the one place where I could kind of switch off and know that nothing would ever possibly go wrong. Well, it is, again, that idea of total control also requires banishment of things that might threaten that control. So there's the slogan isn't that when you enter Disneyland, you will find yourself in the land of yesterday, tomorrow and fantasy. Nothing of the present exists in Disneyland. And so you're escaping the news. You're escaping the chaos of the headlines and all of that. And I assume that that is why it's been a kind of perennial theme of science fiction since Disneyland opened to imagine what would happen if a theme park goes wrong. So in 1973, the novelist Michael Crichton wrote a script for a film called Westworld, which was set in a Western theme park.

And you have animatronic gunslingers, and one of them is played by your brinner. And it all goes wrong. Gonslingers start shooting the guests. And then, of course, in 1990, Michael Crichton published another book on a similar theme called Jurassic Park, which was then made into the film by Stephen Spielberg. And I have to say, we got taken by Bob Iger behind the scenes at Disney World, which I thought, in a way, was the kind of the biggest privilege I felt going there because you get to see what normal visitors don't see. And I have to say that walking behind, you know, the Star Wars ride or whatever down these gantries and ladders and things. The whole time I was waiting for a velociraptor to leap out of a tree and attack us. Yeah.

Surely you're waiting for that the whole time, though, aren't you? Whether you're at Disneyland or not. I think it felt very Jurassic Park behind the scenes. Yeah. But the difference is that you know that's not going to happen at Disneyland because it's basically the ultimate safe space, isn't it? Correct. Now, some people, I think, will find that a hellish prospect.

Frankly, I think those people have got no souls. Because I love Disneyland. And I say that, you know, even before I'd gone with Bob. And actually, I think this is the most enduring thing that Disney created, even more than the films. Because I know the films are great. Snow White is a great film, a landmark in Hollywood filmmaking. But not that many people watch those films today. They're period pieces.

They are, but they do establish the kind of the animated tradition, which is, you know, frozen and all of that. I don't disagree with you at all. But millions of people visit the parks as living, kind of breathing things. Probably billions of people have children who watch films with Disney films on video. And they have been enormously influential architecturally. So as early as 1963, at a conference at Harvard, a developer called James Rouse, who was actually the father of the modern shopping mall, he addressed his audience who were architects and critics. He said to them, you know, you may be shocked by this, but my view is that the greatest piece of urban. design in the United States today is Disneyland. In its respect for people, in its functioning

for people, Disneyland has more to teach modern planners than any other single piece of physical development in this country. Well, just to reiterate, it has no cars. I mean, I think that's absolutely crucial to it. Yeah. It's what American tourists are Europe like when they go to Looker or Florence or whatever. Yeah, that's true. And it's also what they like when they go to Disneyland, that you do actually have to walk. I'm amazed American urban planners don't kind of factor that in a little bit more. Well, I think it's because it's on a human scale. I'll give the last word to a guy like Robert Venturi.

So he's the massively influential postmodern architect. And he designed the Sainsbury Wing of the National Gallery in London. He was a massive fan of Disney's parks. And he argued that Disney parks were the ultimate expression of the kind of city on a hill, American utopian impulse. And he said, the best thing about Disney's parks was that they have come nearer to what people really want than anything that architects have ever given them. Well, on that lordatory tone, thank you, Dominic, that was fantastic. And coming out tomorrow, as you mentioned

Dominic, an extra special treat for our beloved listeners that may well feature Dominic going on the Pirates of the Caribbean ride. I don't know, because I haven't actually seen the film yet, but it'll be very, very good, very entertaining, I think. Thank you so much. much. Next week, we have one additional Disney bonus. We will be going back to the great films. We'll be placing them in the context of the age that produced them. So that is Snow White through to Bambi. So I hope you enjoy that. And next week, we are going back in time to the young Elizabeth, the girl who will grow up to become Elizabeth I, her adventures, her scrapes with danger before she became queen.

So we will see you then, I hope. But for now, bye-bye. Bye-bye. Hi there, it's David Olushoge from Journey Through Time. And here's that extract from our gunpowder plot series that I mentioned earlier. The person who's not rejoicing is Guy Fawkes in the tower. King James himself came to the tower to question. that's quite an astonishing fact that forks and the king looked into each other's

eyes at that moment and of course interrogations at this time I mean we say interrogations as if they're just being questioned but interrogations are brutal violent events yeah and it's going to get much much more violent forks stands up to the king in a way that actually even impresses the king he's open that they plan to blow parliament he said that the aim had been to blow King James and the other Scots back to their Scottish mountains he says that to the king. It takes guts. But it's also not the most diplomatic thing to say to the person you've just tried to murder who, and your fate is in his hands. Yeah. Well, I think Fawkes knows

what's going to happen. I mean, the king was impressed by his obstinacy, that he would not reveal the names of his co-conspirators, that he was willing to insult the king to his face. And you have to say about Guy Fawkes, a man who'd been a soldier for 10 years, my God, he had guts. I mean, he is a bad man. He is a religious fanatic. He's not. not somebody I admire, but my God, he was brave. You can be brave and wrong. You can be brave and involved in things that are evil at the same time. And he was all of those things. But this willingness to stand up to the king that this is before the torture. If you want to hear more about gumpowder, treason and plot, listen to Journey Through Time wherever you get your podcasts.

George Orwell was one of the most impactful voices of the 20th century. But do you know what? His life story is just as interesting as the things he wrote. I'm William Drimple. And I'm Anita Arndon. And we are the hosts of Empire, a goalhanger show about world history. And on Empire, we're currently in the middle of a gripping four-part series about the life of George Orwell. Orwell's early life was wrapped up in the British Empire.

in India to an opium trading father, and in his 20s he served as a colonial police officer in Burma. His later life crystallised his hatred of totalitarianism. As an idealistic writer, he travelled to fight with the Republicans against Franco's fascists in the Spanish Civil War, and he witnessed the horrors of the Blitz. These experiences led him to write his most famous novels, Animal Farm and 1984, giving us enduring phrases like Big Brother is watching you. To listen to our miniseries now, subscribe to Empire, wherever you get your podcast. Hello, History Fans, it's Richard Osmond and Marina Hyde here from the rest is entertainment podcast.

Now, if your group chats buzzing with celebrity traitors fan theories, Alan Carr Gifts and Claudia Winkleman outfit inspiration, then our podcast is the place for you. Every week, we've been reacting to new episodes of the biggest show of the year immediately after they air. And this Thursday's final will be no different. us for a live stream debrief at 10.15 p.m. from the ultimate set of traitors fans, us. Just search the rest is entertainment on YouTube or wherever you get your podcasts. Big dogs only.