The Rest Is History - 646. The Fall of the Incas: Death to the Emperor (Part 3)

Episode Date: February 23, 2026

What happened to the emperor of the Incas after he was taken prisoner by the Spanish conquistadors? Did the formidable buccaneer, Francisco Pizarro, and his men succeed in discovering the treasure troves of the Incas? And, could the Incan empire stand united against this terrifying, alien invasion…? Join Dominic and Tom, as they charge into the bloodiest moment of the whole conquest of the Incas thus far…. To listen to or watch The Book Club, go to: The Book Club _______ Twitter: @TheRestHistory @holland_tom @dcsandbrook Video Editors: Jack Meek + Harry Swan Social Producer: Harry Balden Producers: Tabby Syrett & Aaliyah Akude  Executive Producer: Dom Johnson Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Visit medcan.com slash moments to get started. Attawhalpa speaks, Atahualpa needs, Natawalpa commands, bring him gold, from the palaces, from the temples, from all buildings in the great places, from walls of pleasure and roofs of omen, from floors of feasting and ceilings of death, bring him the gold of Kito and Pachakakak, bring him the gold of Kusko and Korikhancha. Bring him the gold of Vilcanota. Bring him the gold of Collie, of E. Marius and Arakepa. Bring him the gold of the Chimu. Put up a mountain of gold and free your son from his prison of clouds. So that was Christopher Plumber, playing Atahalpa, Emperor of the Inca's in Peter Schaffer's play, The Royal Hunter of the Sun, which we've been hearing a lot of in this series. and Atahualpa in that scene is summoning his people to one of the most memorable endeavors in the whole of world history.

And it's the kind of scene that maybe as a child you have a book of world history and you read about it and you think, wow, that's mad. That couldn't possibly have happened. And that is exactly what happened to me. I had a book of world history and there was Atahualpa with Francisco Pizarro in a kind of very cool hat and a beard. And they were chatting away and they're in this room and there's this kind of piles of gold mounting up. And on the room, there is a white line that's been drawn around it. And you realize that Atulper has to get enough gold to reach that white line.

And Dominic, I have never forgotten it because the jeopardy is immense, isn't it? Yeah. If he doesn't get enough gold to reach that white line, he's going to die. If he does get enough gold to reach that white line. Well, what then? We will find out in today's house. episode, won't we? Yeah, you're not wrong.

This is exactly it. I had this encyclopedia of world history as a child, maybe the same one that you did. Is it the R.J. Umsted book of world history. It probably was actually. But he wrote all history books in the 1970s. Yes. In the 1960s and 70s.

So, yeah, it's a brilliant book and there was this picture and there's this bloke gesturing at the wall. Yeah. And they're filling it with kind of golden llamas and stuff like piling up. Yeah. And, you know, if he fills the room, the Spanish will let him go. This is in Carameco, where he's been taking. in prisoner. And if he doesn't fill the room, they will garota burn him or garot him. Yeah. And basically,

you can't wait to find out what happens next. And you know what? This really happened. And this is the story we're telling in today's episode. Brilliant. So let's remind ourselves where we've got to in the story of the Four of the Inkers. So people will remember, Francisco Pizarro and his fellow conquistadors had arrived in Kachamarka in November 1533. And they'd hold up waiting for this bloke at Tewelper, the emperor of the Inkers, who's to be fighting a civil war against his brother, Huasca. And Huascair is in a cage, isn't he, at this point? Being brought from Kusko to where Atulpa is.

Exactly. Huasca has been taken prisoner. So Atta Welper had won the civil war, effectively. Now, Atalpa made this grand entrance to the town square, which we described last time. There's this confrontation with the Dominican friar Bithente de Balberde. And then the Spaniards charged into the square, and they took him prisoner, and they killed all his men. And we ended with this bonkers scene where he's taken in, dressed at new clothes to have dinner with Pizarro. And then to curl up with him for the night. Yeah, and then to spend the night with him.

And you suggested that Pizarro was a snorer, which would just make things even worse, wouldn't it? He's definitely a snora. Pizarro's in his 50s. He's kind of tall, he's broad, he's burly. I mean, that's a snora, definitely. Well, I think, I mean, that description applies to me as well. I don't think I'm a snorer. You're not burly.

I mean, no one I call him burly if I'm. in a million years. People watching it on YouTube will be able to see that. See how Burley Tom is, exactly. So we ended with night falling, the carry and crows feasting on the bodies of the dead, and so on and so forth. And let's pick up straight away in the morning of the 17th, November, 1533.

Atta Welper wakes, and he's in a state of shock. Clearly, Pizarro has got up first without disturbing him, because he's taken in. Cup of tea. Yeah, to see Pizarro and the other Spanish captains. We found him full of fear thinking that we were going to kill him, Well, duh. Yeah.

And Pizarro says to Atulpa, this is amazing thing. He says, don't be sorrowful. He says, we Christians, we've gone to many countries, we've met many mighty rulers, and one way or another, we've made them all our friends and vassals. So you shouldn't be shocked that we've captured you. I don't know whether that's any consolation. Well, I suppose it kind of is because it suggests they're not going to kill him. Well, hold on.

If Atowalpa had said, well, who's the most famous person you've treated in this manner? And they'd say, well, Monsas, you may. At that point, his face might fall a little when he discovered the fate of the Emperor of the Aztecs. Fair point. So Atalpa says, you're going to kill me? And Pizarro says, no, no, no. We're Christians. So that means we don't kill people in cold blood. We will see in this episode how true that is.

And then, I think, disastrously for the Inca's generally, Atowalpa sends a message to his army. And he says, do not flee, do not resist. Wait for my orders. I'm not dead. I'm in the power of the Christians. Later that morning, Pizarro's lieutenant Hernando de Soto, who's described as swashbuckling, or dashing. Posh. Yes, and he ends up in Arkansas or thereabouts. Looking for the Fountain of Youth.

Exactly. So Soto goes off to the camp of the Atalpa army, which is about 70 or 80,000 strong, supposedly. So they're outside the city. They offer no resistance when Soto turns up. They don't interfere with him at all. They just don't know what to do. They're completely bewildered.

This has never happened before. These people who might as well have come from the moon have captured their emperor. They're just stunned. And actually following Atalpa's orders, which are clearly been drafted by the Spanish or interfered with by the Spanish, we're told that many of them dropped to their knees and made the sign of the cross, basically a sign of obedience to the Spaniards. So that's all great for Pizarro, even better. When Soto gets back to the town, Soto says, I found a lot of stuff in the camp and I brought it with me. 80,000 pesos worth of gold, 7,000 marks worth of silver and 14 emeralds. To quote the Spanish, the golden silver were in monstrous effigies, large and small dishes, pitchers, jugs, basins, large drinking vessels and various other pieces.

Atta Welper said that this all came from his table service. So they've come back basically with Attawalper's crockery. And it dawns on the Spanish, I think, at this point, my God, these people place no value on golden silver other than aesthetic. It's pretty, so these guys like it, and bigwigs have it, but it has no monetary value to them, because of course the Inkers don't have money. And Atalpa sees the Spanish eyes glittering with excitement. And this gives him an idea, and this goes back to your reading at the beginning, Tom. He says, well, if you love this stuff so much, and this is my crockery, I can give you much more of

this if this means so much to you. And through these interpreters who are working for the Spanish, she says, I can give you more gold and silver than you could possibly dream of. And Pizarro says, well, how much exactly? And then this famous moment, Atta Welper, I can fill this room with gold as high as I can reach. And he sort of pretends to make a line on the wall with his hand. And the Spanish sources say, the room measured 22 feet long by 17 feet wide and it was to be filled to a white line halfway up its height, eight feet high. So in other words, as high as Atter Welper can reach. Attawelper said he would fill it with gold jars.

pots, tiles and other pieces. He would also fill the room twice over with silver, and he would do all this within two months. So there's a time element to this. There's a sort of elements of jeopardy. Pizarra can't believe this. And he calls in one of his secretures, a guy called Francisco de Hereth, and says, I want you to write this down, make a record. And then he says to Atuio, great, if you do this, we will let you go. We will guarantee your life. And you can go back off to your northern heartland of Quito in Ecuador. And you can be king in the north. there. And the Spanish are thinking, well, this is an amazing result. Basically, if Atta Welper can honor this, we'll get the gold. You know, because he's our prisoner and because people are bringing

the gold, he'll be acquiescing in our overlordship. We'll turn him into our collaborator. We won't be attacked by his armies. And in the meantime, we can get reinforcements from Panama, or even from Spain. Now, this is important because Atta Welper, I think, has no sense that the Spanish are the first of many. He thinks they are brigands, raided. pirates. I don't think it ever occurs to him or indeed to any of the Inca's that more of these bearded men will come in their floating castles or whatever they call them. But I mean, that makes him sound very naive. Yeah. But you can understand why he would have no comprehension of what Europe is or any of that. Yeah. But you can see reasons why, from his point of view, this is a shrewd policy. Because firstly, it requires the Spaniards to accept that he is a legitimate heir. Yes. Because if the Spaniards are using him as their mouthpiece, it's a kind of acknowledgement that he's the rightful emperor. Also, he specified two months. It is actually going to take much longer.

So there's the sense that he's spinning it out. And also, if these messengers are going out, then they can communicate his wishes to his people and bring back messages to him. And also, over the process of time, he will start to target areas of the emperor. empire that he wants targeted. Because it's notable, isn't it, that he never once sends messengers up to Quito, up to his own areas. They're always going out to places that essentially, you know, he's targeted for destruction. Yeah, exactly right. He's still, I think a really important point actually that you made there is I think he is trapped by the context of the civil war intellectually. He sees everything through the prison of his struggle with Huascaar,

of finishing off the civil war and then cementing his control over the empire. And the Spanish are not exactly an irritation. They're obviously more than that. But they're a factor, aren't they? Yes. They're a factor. The widest story, as he sees it, is the civil war, which he thinks the Spanish don't really understand. I think the Spanish think the civil war is an incidental detail in their big story. And we will see who's right. We will see who's right. So, the orders are sent out across the empire. Send your gold and silver to Caramaka. And in the meantime, Atalpa settles down to wait with Pizarro and the other conquistadors. And again, it is a very important. It is a very similar to the stories of Cortez and Co. with Montezuma. Their relations actually are not

terrible. The Spanish are clearly fascinated by Atta Welper. They write long descriptions of him in their memoirs and chronicles and things. They're fascinated by his appearance and so on. So we know that he's probably in his early 30s. He's a big man. He's kind of an alpha male. He had a large face, handsome and fierce. His eyes reddened with blood. He spoke with much gravity. He made many lively arguments. He was a cheerful man, although unsubtle. And the unsubility is reflected in an entertaining way. So one of the conquistadors, Christobald de Mena, records that Atowalpa's favorite possession was the severed head of Atok, who was one of his brother's generals. And I quote, its teeth were closed and held a silver spout. On top of the head was attached a golden bowl.

Atalpa liked to drink from it when thinking about the war against his brother, his servants pour the cheetah, that's a kind of beer made from Mays, into the bowl, and it came out through the spout. Would you drink from the severed head of one of your own? Of course you would. Yeah, I think I would. Yeah. I mean, it's actually given me quite a few ideas, though. There's some Oxford College, isn't there? Where they, it turned out recently, I wrote a column about it in the times. It turned out that they were drinking after senior common room dinners or something. They were drinking from the severed head of somebody that had been given to the college. Did you see this? I didn't. It was a skull. And if you've got a skull, you might as well use it. Do you know what? I'm going to look this up. I'm going to do some live research. Has it been sent back for dignified burial? Professor Dan Hicks, I think. Of course. Yes. He'd be very against that. Yeah, woke professor campaigned against it.

Worcester College. And I wrote a column for the Times with the excellent headline, drinking from skulls is a noble tradition. Well, it is. It clearly is. It clearly is. And Atulper is, you know, part of a proud Latin American. American tradition. He is. And he's a bright fellow because actually we learned that one of the Spanish conquistos said he's the most educated and capable Indian that's ever been seen to such an extent that he plays chess very well. So they taught him chess. Yeah. He sounds like a

tremendous companion. So Francisco Pizarro's page, who was a cousin of his, a teenager called Pedro, he wrote down an account of Atalpa's daily rituals, which is actually really interesting. Atowap would sit on this little stool and he was always attended by beautiful young women. They would bring him his food in golden bowls. He'd point at what he wanted. And then they would feed him with their bare hands. And if he wanted to spit afterwards, he would spit into their hands and they would kind of hold out their copped hands. I mean, I think he's a kind of model for relaxed lifestyle. Yeah. Live your life, the Inca Way. Yeah. Inca Lounge Corps. Well, so talking of Inca lounge wear, he has some interesting fashion material.

He has these lovely soft tunics and robes made from the skin of vampire bats. You do wonder whether Spanish is slightly exaggerating here, but then there's this nice detail. So when he's worn anything or when he's eaten anything, they gather everything up. And this includes basically the stuff that he's spat out and also even the sort of rushes that have been placed on the floor under his feet. And they put them in a special leather chest. And Pedro said, I asked why they kept all this. They told me it was in order to burn it. Anything touched by the ruler, the son of the sun,

was reduced to ashes and thrown to the winds since no one else was allowed to touch it. I mean, even by the standards of Spanish royalty, you thought that was excessive. But it goes to a very important point. Something is very useful to the Spaniards, the absolute authority of the Sapa Inca, because by becoming Sapa Inca,

you effectively become, are you a god, you're kind of adjacent to a god, I suppose. You're an intermediary between the dimensions of the earthly and the supernatural. Dominic, to coin a phrase. Exactly, like the great speaker of Tenoste-Lan, Montezuma, had been in exactly the same position. There's no other real source of authority. And this means that basically the Spaniards now control the only source of authority, unless you're one of the Chwaska faction,

the only source of authority between Ecuador and northern Chile. And it means it's very hard for somebody else to challenge them. Effectively, the Inca's 12 million people maybe are completely leaderless. with Atuelper as a prisoner. And the Spanish used this to their advantage. So as they did in Mexico, they allow him to receive, as you mentioned, to receive messengers,

to receive tribute. They let his advisors come and go. So these blokes turn up with these massive ear spools in their ears and, you know, all of this. Dominic, I mean, we're not the rest is ants, are we?

No, never pretended to be. I think there's a parasitic ant that will invade a rival ant colony and will take captive the head of the ants. Either kill it or whatever. And then just take over the whole ant-eat, locks and broken barrel. So there's maybe a kind of parallel between the Spanish and parasitic ants. That's a very compelling natural history parallel.

Well done. I enjoyed that. It was worth the five-minute break in recording to Google that. Yeah, but I knew what to Google, right? You did. You deserve all the credit. And it's the kind of thing that goes on in the rainforests of South America. Yes, to the sound of the pan pipes, surely.

So even Atalpa's generals, because don't forget there's been civil war, even his generals act as though nothing has changed. It's important for people to realize there are the various armies roaming around. So two of Atalpa's key generals who will play a part in the next couple of episodes are in the south. There's a guy with the excellent name of Kiskees, who has just captured Kusko. And there's another commander, basically the commander-in-chief, the oldest of the commanders, who's called Chalkuchima. and Chalko Chalcachima is midway between Kusko and Kahamaka. And both of these guys have about, I don't know, 40,000 men or something. Now there's a third general who we don't need to worry about right now called Ruminiawi,

who is much further north. He's in Quito in the kind of home base of the Attawalpa side of the Civil War divide. Atalpa says to these three generals, stay where you are. Don't interfere with the ransom. Wait for it to be collected. The foreigners will go once the ransom is spent. paid, and we can get on with the business of finishing off the war, killing on our enemies, and cementing control of the empire. The question, I suppose, is would his generals have tried to

rescue him anyway? And I would guess probably not, because they are so, everybody is so disorientated and baffled. In his brilliant book, The Conquest of the Inca's, John Hemming makes the excellent point that basically, in most places the Europeans conquered, Europeans had arrived multiple times before they actually turned up for good. You know, missionaries had come, traders, envoys. What's very unusual about the conquest of Peru is basically the Spanish do it all in one go. So these generals have literally never seen a European.

They've never heard of a European. Until they hear some mad guys with beards have turned up and captured the emperor, they didn't even know Europe existed. But what do you think they find more disorientating? The fact that Europeans have turned up with beards and stuff. Yeah. Or the fact that they have dared to seize the emperor and keep him as a hostage.

Because in a sense, that must be the thing that's really destabilizing. Because there's nothing in their history or their ideology or their experience that would enable them to know what to do in such a scenario. As we will see, they didn't even look the emperor in the eye. The emperor doesn't meet their eye when he talks to them. So the idea that these guys will have laid hands on him, dragged him out of his litter, and then forced him to sleep next to them. that's surely the biggest twist of all. Now, you mentioned that Huasca was being brought north underguard. In a cage, yes.

So Pizarro, when Attaualpa tells him this, Pizarro says, do not harm your brother, because Pizarro obviously thinks, wow. If I get both of them, you can make them fight. Well, we sleep with one on each side. Who knows? But Atowalpa has no intention of allowing his brother to fall into the Spanish hands, because, of course, he worries that they might prefer his brother. So he sends orders to the people who are bringing Huascar up at a place called Andamaka,

which is south of Cayamaka in the mountains. Huasca is murdered by his guards and his body is thrown into the river. So that's a great example of how Atulper, even as a captive, is still able effectively to rule the empire because all these messengers are going out, taking his commands. Exactly right. And it's also a good example of how Atowalper is not this sort of martyr, saintly martyr. Attaelper is a very hard man.

No, I think we've established he's not a saintly martyr. So Atta alpa sends orders, carry on with the hits, basically. So some of his other half-brothers, some of his other relatives knocked off in the next few weeks. And to us, to subsequent historians, they say, isn't this insane? That Attaalper is still pursuing his crazy factionalism after he's been taken prisoner in the face of this existential foreign threat. But he doesn't think it is an existential foreign threat. He thinks the civil war is the priority, and hopefully in the long run, he thinks maybe he could turn this to his advantage. But I think also in a civil war, perhaps you hate the people you're fighting much more than you do foreign intruders.

Yeah, I don't think he hates the Spanish. I think he's completely confused by them. So let's move on a few weeks to January 1533. The treasure is now arriving in Cayamaca. So that's jugs, plates, bowls, all these things made of gold. And the Spanish start breaking them up when they arrive so they can fit more and more in the room. they want to cram it into the room. Attawalpa says to them, what are you doing? Why are you doing that? I will give you so much gold. You'll be sated with it. But some of the Spanish say, you know, a few weeks that gone by, mate, we haven't seen as much gold as we hoped. So Atalpa says, well, I can tell you two places in particular where you'll get gold. And there are two of the most sacred temples in the empire.

So one of them is the shrine and oracle of Pachacamac, which is near the coast, near what's now Lima. And the other is the sun temple of Kori Kancha in Kusko. I think both of these, you mentioned, Tom, in your excellent Christopher Plummer reading. And the reason Attaualpa wants to surrender these two places in particular goes back to the point about the Civil War. So Cusco, the Sun Temple there, the most famous temple and religious site in the Andean world. Why does you want to surrender that? Because he's probably never even been to Cusco. Cusco is his brother's city, his brother's heartland. Well, he was planning to wipe Cusco out, wasn't he? Yeah, exactly. So get the Spanish to do it for him. Yeah. He represents the north of this empire. not the South, and he just thinks, well, you know, this is a brilliant way of punishing Kusko for backing my brother.

Yeah. I mean, it's like someone in Manchester saying, destroy London. Exactly. And then the other one, Patrick Amac, amusingly, the priests at this Oracle had made some disastrous predictions. They had they basically had the crystal ball that I used to use in my associated newspaper stays. So they said, first of all, they had said that his father, Hwena Kappak, would recover of smallpox. He promptly died. They told Huascaa that he would beat Atta Welper, as we've discovered, Huasca ended up in a cage, and they told Atta Welper that foreigners would arrive and he would easily defeat them. So Huatu Elper says, this oracle is absolutely useless. And actually, there's a funny story. The high priest apparently went of Patrick Kamak,

went to Caiy Mark to see Atta Welper. And Atta Welper upbraided him in front of the Spanids and said, your predictions are terrible. You know, you're absolutely worthless. Of course I'm going to take all your gold. You've absolutely shamed yourselves. But also, Atulpa has started to fathom Spaniard's religious motivation. And he kind of fires them up for sacking these temples by saying that the gods worship there are demons. Yes, exactly. So that's another way in which he can get his vengeance on kind of priesthoods that he feel are against his rule. And actually, the interesting thing, so Patrick Kamak, Patrick Kamak dates back for more than a thousand years before the Inca's.

This is not an Inca shrine. It's part of the Andean world, but it's not part of their official. state-sponsored sun religion, which they've been really trying to impose across the empire in recent decades. There's a slight kind of owlman quality to it as well, isn't there? So the owl man is the figure in the Aztec story where you unleash the owl man and the world will end, but at least you'll destroy your enemies and he gets shot and that's the end of the owlman. There's a prophecy that if the temple at Patrick Khamak is attacked, then a universal flood will wipe out the entire world.

That's right, yes. And therefore, if tribute isn't paid to this temple, then it will be disastrous. So essentially, the Spanish, by sending people to loot it, are putting that prophecy to the test. And if they're wrong, then a universal flood will destroy all of life on Earth. So the stakes are quite high. They are high. So Pizarro sends his brother, Hernando, to this shrine at Patrick Hammack on the coast. And it's good for us that he did, because some of the guys that went with,

Fernando wrote these fantastic memoirs of the conquest. So a guy called Miguel de Estete. And they write these really, there's some of the first kind of really lyrical descriptions of the South American landscape. There's a brilliant description of the road over the Andes. And the highlands are described as truly a land so muddy that it's like has not been seen in Christendom. They obviously not been to Somerset in January. No, clearly not. So they go to the sanctuary and Estate said it was basically the top of an adobe pyramid and he was very underwhelmed by it.

He said, it was very dark and it didn't smell very pleasant, a very small, rough cavern. Seeing the filth and mockery of the idol, we went out to ask why they thought highly of something so dirty and ugly. And actually, there was no treasure there at all. If there was any treasure, the priests had hidden it.

And the Spanish, they just smashed the whole place up. And is there a universal flood? No, not at all. So, so, Anand, then sets off back to Kayamaka and actually the distances in this story are absolutely mad. So Anando has just travelled 800 miles

he's got 800 miles to go back and he goes, he's going back to Kahamaka and then he discovers that at a place called Shaoosa. Attawalpa's commander-in-chief, this guy, Chalcuchima, is blocking the mountain road with about 35,000 men. Now, Chalka Chima

is the most experienced of all Atta-Walpa's generals. He's basically the sort of the grizzled veteran character in a sort of fantasy novel or something. I served your father. You know, that kind of thing. Yes. That's his vibe.

So the kind of character who is honorable, but ultimately doomed, would you say, in a science fiction story. Completely. That's completely what he is. Exactly right. So he's like that sort of Jora, Mormont or whatever, in Game of Thrones, that sort of figure. Yeah. So John Heming says, Child Kuchima is the one man who might have united the empire

against the Spaniards because he's the one man who's not entirely defined by the Civil War because he had served Atta Welper's father. So in other words, what Chalcachima does now is very important. Anando arrives in Chowja with his men. They've done this mad journey. They've climbed 16,000 feet up into the Andes. They've been trudging through snow. They're absolutely shattered.

There are only a few dozen of them, and Chalcuchima has more than 30,000 men. They arrive in Jowja and there's this festival going on. So there's people dancing and singing, and they sort of ignore the Spanish. So the Spanish hang around a bit and then finally Chalcachima arrives with his senior officers. We have a description of him from the later chronicler, Thea Theta de Leon, who says he was a muscular man with a broad back, a fierce expression and a short, very thick neck. So he looks like a rugby player, basically. Anando says to Chalcuchima, you know, Atualpa wants you to come with us to Chayamaka. And Chalcuchima says, no, no, what, I'm not going with you. I haven't had any orders

to say I should go with you. They have a massive argument all night. The Spanish think, well, if he doesn't, if he attacks us, we're pretty much doomed. Because he's got 30,000 men and we've got sort of, you know, 20 men or something. But the mad thing is, when the dawn breaks, Chalko Chima returns and says, yeah, actually, I've been thinking about it. I will come with you, to Kai Marka. Fair enough. One possible influence on him, do you think, is the fact that the local people here are anti-Awaalpa. Yes. So they had not been backing them. And these are the wanker people. Do you know, I actually, I admitted all mention of these people.

The wanker. For precisely this reason, because I thought you would get too much. How did it find it funny at all? Schoolboyish pleasure from the existence of these people. There's nothing funny about it. But I think the role of the wanker in this story is one that, you know, we shouldn't overlook. No, I mean, and indeed in this podcast, we shouldn't overlook it at all. Because the wankers will be back, won't they later on?

Yeah, well, they will. I mean, I was hoping they won't, but clearly you're going to bring them back in. It's all about detail, Dominic. It's about the granular level. So anyway, why has Chalkechima? He hasn't just done it because of the presence of the Huanka. He's also going with them, I think, because he's being completely thrown by the Spaniard's presence,

by their very existence. He doesn't know what to do. When they say Atta Welper has sent for you, I mean, he's taking a risk if he doesn't go. So he decides he'll go with them. And as John Heming says, this decision was a tragic mistake, one of the turning points in the collapse of resistance

the Spanish invaders. For by riding out of Shausha with this deceptively small band of strangers, Chalcuchima delivered himself into captivity and death. Oh dear. But not at first. So at first they treat him with tremendous friendship and they ride together across the great scenery of the Cordillera Blanca, past the sources of the Amazon or this kind of thing and they finally get to Chayamaka. And the other Spaniards say, oh, brilliant, you're back. Great to see you. Chalcichima at this point probably is beginning to think, did I make the right choice in going with these guys? Because they take him into Seattle, Welper. Child Kachima is overcome with emotion to see the great Inca.

And he, and I quote, raised his hands to the son to give thanks for being allowed to see him again. He went up to him with great reverence, weeping and kissed him on the face, hands and feet. And the other chiefs who had come with him did the same. But Atalpa won't even look him in the face. Now, this is standard for the Inca. The Inca doesn't normally look at commoners in the eyes, but the Spanish. can see that Atta Welper is gutted, that his best commander has just walked straight into captivity alongside him.

And actually, now for Chalguchima, the smiles on the faces of his Spanish friends begin to fade. It is odd that Attawalpa didn't send him a message and say, don't do it. It's hard when you're communicating only by knotted, knotted strings, no? Yeah, I suppose. I mean, this is the issue if they develop writing and maybe a different story. So the Spanish now say to Chalcuchima, right, you know, the gloves are off now. Where's your gold?

We would like more of your gold. And Chalcichima said, I don't have any, I mean, what gold I have I brought with me. Soto, and we told, took him aside and threatened to burn him unless he told the truth. He gave the same answer as before. They put up a steak and tied him to it and brought firewood and straw, saying they would set fire to him unless he told the truth. Then there's this terrible scene. Chalko Chalcima kind of breaks down. And he says, get the emperor.

They bring out the emperor. Atta whelper comes out and says, don't worry, don't listen to these Spanish. They're bluffing. They won't burn you. Spanish promptly set him on fire. And we're told... Gusts of laughter.

Yeah. They cut him down after a few moments. And they dragged him to Anando Pizarro's lodging. So this is the bloke who's been travelling with him. Quote, his legs and arms burned and his tendons shriveled. And we're told that Anando was quite nice to him and tended him. I mean, this is a skill. It turns out the Spaniards have, isn't it?

is burning human bodies to just the right degree. Exactly. I like grilling. He's not dead, but I have to tell you that for Chalkajima, and indeed for Atta Welper, there is not going to be a very happy ending. So I think on that note, we should take a break. There is so much to play for, and we will find out who triumphs, the Spaniards, or Atta Welper after the break. This episode is brought to you by Claude, by Anthropic. Now, history lives in the contradictions.

Yeah, I've always been fascinated by the great mysteries of history. Like what happened to the Maya civilization of Central America? Why were all those great cities deserted? But Tom, there's one mystery that's always fascinated you, isn't there? Yes, Dominic, I've always been fascinated by the question of how humans came to make and use fire. How did that originate? and a tremendous discovery was announced just last year that the place where it seems fire was invented was Suffolk. Well, you know, one of the things that makes history so fascinating is the kind of back and forth between sources to try and explain these great mysteries. And you know what's built for that kind of thinking? Claude is built for that way of thinking.

It doesn't smooth things over. It helps you dig into the disagreement to reveal something new. Anthropic just committed to not running adverts in Claude, so your thinking stays yours. Try Claude for free at Claude.a.ai slash rest is history. Hello everybody and welcome to the book club, a new podcast from Gollhanger. Hosted by me, Dominic Sambrook. And me, Tabitha Cyrus. As some of you may know, I've been Dominic's producer on The Rest is History.

and we even did a mini-series last year about all things books. And since we enjoyed that so much, we have decided to roll it out as its own show. So it'll be coming out every Tuesday. We'll be doing a different book each time and digging into all the stories behind them. And we are going to be talking about the historical contexts behind some of the greatest and most famous books of all time. We're going to be digging into the remarkable people behind them, the unexpected stories behind the stories, and also unraveling the plot of each book a bit and delving into the depths of the story.

Now, you don't have to have read the books to listen to the show, but we hope that by the end of each episode, you will be able to pretend to people that you've read them. That is the key thing. And either way, whether you read them or not, we hope that you'll learn lots of fascinating facts,

you'll do lots of great stories, and maybe Tabby, the odd laugh. We will be looking at thrilling, gothic bodice rippers like Wuthering Heights and Frankenstein, as well as iconic stories like the Great Gatsby or Little Women. And then also some more modern stuff. So Game of Thrones, Normal People, The Hunger Games, Hamnet, all manner of exciting stories.

So please join us on our journey into all things books, wherever you get your podcasts. Just search for The Book Club every Tuesday, and hopefully we will see you there. Hello, everybody, and welcome to The Book Club, a new podcast from Gollhanger, hosted by me Dominic Sambrook And me, Tabitha Siread.

As some of you may know, I've been Dominic's producer on The Rest is History. And we even did a mini-series last year about all things books. And since we enjoyed that so much, we have decided to roll it out as its own show. Sett will be coming out every Tuesday. We'll be doing a different book each time and digging into all the stories behind them.

And we are going to be talking about the historical contexts behind some of the greatest and most famous books of all time. We're going to be digging into the remarkable people behind them, the unexpected stories behind the stories, and also unraveling the plot of each book a bit and delving into the depths of the story. Now, you don't have to have read the books to listen to the show, but we hope that by the end of each episode, you will be able to pretend to people that you've read them. That is the key thing.

And either way, whether you read them or not, we hope that you'll learn lots of fascinating facts, you'll do lots of great stories, and maybe Tabby, the odd laugh. We will be looking at thrilling Gothic bodice rippers like Wuthering Heights and Frankenstein, as well as iconic stories like The Great Gatsby or Little Women. And then also some more modern stuff. So Game of Thrones, Normal People, The Hunger Games, Hamlet, or manner of exciting stories. So please join us on our journey into all things books, wherever you get your podcasts. Just search for The Book Club every Tuesday and hopefully we will see you there.

Hello and welcome back to the rest is history. It is April 1533 and for weeks now the gold of the Inca's has been rolling into this room that has a white line round it. The gold has to reach that white line or else Atta Helper is going to be killed. And Dominic, every day that that hoard is getting higher, isn't it? Because you've got streams of porters, streams of lamas and they are just bringing in gold from across Peru and beyond. They are. And Atalper is watching a great satisfaction. because with every new convoy, surely the day of his freedom is approaching. But the Gold Porter is not the only new arrivals in Cahomarker. Just before Easter, a familiar face joins this merry party. And this is Pizarro's business partner, Diego Del Magro. Yeah. We described in episode one, he's short, he's ugly, he's flamboyant, so he's colourfully

dress, but he's also very boastful and sort of boorish. John Reese Davies. Yes. Who played Kimley. Exactly. Now remember the deal was that he would get reinforcements in Panama and he would come along later. And this is precisely what he's done. He's arrived with 150 Spaniards with a load more horses and some royal officials who are basically going to report back to the court in Spain to Charles V.

So this has massive implications now for both Pizarro and Atuoka. So Pizarro now has his business partner on hand who he has screwed over from the very beginning because he got himself the title of governor, but basically was a commandant of a fort or something cycle for his business partner. And Almagro throughout this whole thing, he's paranoid that he's going to be cut out of the loot. Now, Attawalper, when he sees these guys arrive, he obviously needs to recalibate because clearly there are a lot more Spaniards out there. And he can tell they're not just going to go away when they've got the gold. This is not just a raid. This looks more like an invasion.

And at this point, Attawalper says to Bizarro, are you? you going home or are you going to stay? I mean, it's been great having you, but, you know, when are you leaving? So I check out the train times and. And for the first time, Pizarro says to him, we are going to stay and we're going to divide up your workers, your people among ourselves. And this is a huge shock for Attaweb. Pizarro says, don't worry, we will leave the northern bit, the province of Quito to you. That's your heartland. It'll be your kingdom. But Attawelper, for the first time things, I don't believe these guys. They are not going to want of this agreement. And is he starting to think, can I even trust them to set me free when

the line gets reached? Exactly, exactly. Now, all the time the gold has been rolling in, as you said, and at the first week of May 1533, Brizarro orders is meant to start melting it down. This is an incredible operation. They've built nine huge forges under Spanish supervision. Inka-Smiths are going to do it, and they are feeding the fires all day. all night, seven days a week, for seven weeks, with more than 600 pounds of gold a day. So that's a total of 11 tons. And we're talking about vases, figurines, idols, ornaments, necklaces, you name it. These are beautiful artifacts, because we know from the very few that were preserved,

the high standard of Andean kind of gold craftsmanship. Such a tragedy. Imagine what they would be like to have those things. Yeah. And the Spanish turned them into bars. that would be stamped with the royal symbol, and there are going to be 13,500 pounds of gold bars, 16,000 pounds of silver bars, which are all destined to be shipped back to Spain. Now, you remember that I mentioned that Atulper had offered them two temples.

So one is Pachamak, which we talked about last time, and the other was the Sun Temple of Coricancho in Cusco. and he has now persuaded Pizarro send some men to Cusco to the Sun Temple Cusco is a hell of a long way away, 750 miles across the Central Andes not for people who've been going 800 miles well I guess yeah except you're going across the mountains which is hard

Yeah true So when he gets a message from Anando his brother to say Patrick Kamak is no good There's no goal Pizarro says okay fine we'll do it And he sends three volunteers Three I know three volunteers With an escort all the way across the Andes South to Kusko.

And they get there in early April and they're greeted by Atwellp's general Kiskees, who is occupying Kusko. Now we'll talk a lot about Kusko next time, so we don't need to massively go into it now. But just to talk about the temple, Kodakancher, this was the holiest place that there was for the Inca's. It's the Temple of the Sun. The Inker, of course, is the son of the sun. There is this herb garden, there's a convent. There's an astronomical observatory. John Heming calls it the Mecca of the Inca Empire.

because pilgrims would come from all over the Andes to visit this place. And even though Kiskees is a northerner, who's put Kusko under military occupation, he's shocked when the Spaniards say, we've come to basically rip out the gold from this temple. I mean, imagine, you know, they turn up in Mecca and say, we've been sent to despoil the mosque. Yeah.

I didn't go down well. Not at all. And they're very rude. He's very shocked that they're uncouth, and they abuse the women of the temples. That's all we're told. I think we can guess, given the Spanish behaviour earlier in the last episode, exactly how badly behaved they are with the women of the temples.

Seems incomprehensible. They're not just lynched. I know, and there's only three of them. Insane, isn't it? And the mad thing is, Kiscus says, okay, fair enough. And his men fetch tools so that these Spanish guys with crowbars can take these giant gold plates off the walls of the temples. I mean, isn't it that Kiscus is actually, he's in command of an occupying force? Yeah.

And presumably shares Atowalpa's contempt for what Kusko represents. I'm sure. So in a sense, maybe the Spaniards are doing dirty work that he can't actually do. I suppose, maybe. Because I cannot comprehend how they would be allowed to do this otherwise. Yeah, and maybe. I mean, I think the fact that he's a northerner definitely is a factor, and he's commanding an occupying army.

But even so, he's part of the Inca world. He believes in the cult of the sun. You know, he's part of that cosmological ecosystem. But they tear it all down. So these great plates, they're about two and a half feet long. They weigh five pounds each. They're beautifully decorated, we're told, with images of trees and flowers and things like that. Solid gold.

The Spanish tear it all down. They get hundreds of supporters to carry it back. Of course, no wheels, no carts in Peru. That god for llamas. Yeah. And, I mean, they have hundreds of supporters carrying these things, literally like trudging across the mountains, carrying these great gold plates. They've got these pallets basically loaded with gold and silver.

And when they get back to Cajamaka, Pizarro and the people in Cajamaka just can't believe their eyes. This stream of porters with all the gold of Cusco, 14,000 pounds of gold, 26,000 pounds of silver, combined 20 metric tons of treasure. And at this point, Attawalpa's ransom is unquestionably the biggest ransom ever paid. You know, there's a sort of rabbit hole of economic history where people have tried to quantify how much this is. At the lowest, it's billions of dollars or pounds in today's money. At the highest, it is tens and tens of billions. I mean, it's almost impossible to put a figure on it.

And Pizarro is part of that chivalric culture where ransoms are taken for granted. And then he is so hit the jackpot with this one. Yeah. I mean, it puts Francis the first into exactly. Very, very low rent. It's as though somebody has basically said to him, how much ransom would you like? And he said, I don't know, a hundred billion pounds. Billion, zillion trillion. Yeah. And they've said, okay, we've got it. You know, here it is. The three Spaniards who turn up back in Kaamauga say, do you know the mad thing? This is only a fraction of the gold in Kusko. They said there was so much gold in all the temples of the city that it was marvelous, they would have brought back much more of it, but it would have detained them longer.

And they said, we've already taken steps to start hoarding it. We've got a big storehouse there, we've got blokes guarding it. Great. And Pizarro and Almaro say, oh my God. So Cusco is next. So this is a thing. See, they're going to want to go on to Cusco. On the 17th of June, Pizarro starts to share out the gold. A fifth of it is set aside for the crown. After that, all of his horsemen will get £90 of gold.

That's 40 kilos. And they'll get £180 of silver, 81 kilos. Anyone who's not a horseman gets half of this, except for the priests and friars who get even less. I don't know why. They're pledged to poverty. I suppose so. And, of course, the bigwigs get a lot more.

So, Anando de Soto gets double. Francisco Pizarro gets seven times what a horseman gets, and he gets Atulper's solid gold thrown, which is very expensive. And Dominant, what about Diego Almagro, who's turned up and has been systematically frozen out? So, Almagro says to Pizarro, I think the fair thing to do would be to split this equally between us, between your men and my men. And Pizarro says, I don't know, because we kind of did all the dirty work by arriving and catching Atalpa. you came late. So I think what would be best is for you to get just a little token amount.

And this is what happens. He gives him, you know, a few trinkets, a few crumbs from his table. Remind me what the balance of power is between them. So Amagro has turned up with about 150 men. Pizarra has a few more actually. Pizarra has something like 167, 168. Because it's kind of amazing in that situation that they don't turn on each other. Yes. Well, if you're looking for them to turn on each other, Tom, I've got great news for you. There'll be a lot of turning on each other to come. I mean, if I was a Maldro. Yeah, you go mad.

You'd say what? This was always ideal that I would come later, and I come later now and you cut me out. There's an argument that Almagro is being a bit naive. This is how conquistadors always behave. They always stab each other in the back, and you have to be on hand. And actually, Pizarro is a shrewd guy.

For somebody who's basically, you know, is illiterate and he's come from nowhere. He's not a fool. Because he straight away knows, I must get the king on side. I don't want to be Cortez. and end up in constant lawsuits. You know, I must have royal approval.

So he gets his brother, Hernando, and he gives him a written report. Obviously, his secretary has written this for him. And he gives him a load of gold, and he gives him some ornaments. And he says, go back to the coast, go to Panama, then sail on to Spain with all this gold, with this report, go to see the king. Get him to approve my, you know, to reapprove my governorship of this province because we cannot afford to be cut out by somebody else. There's a downside, though, if Anando Pizarro, his brother is going off, because Atta Walper has become great pals with Nando. They're both kind of alpha males and they've kind of bonded over, I don't know, drinking from this skulls. Skals.

Vampire bat. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Red trousers made of vampire bats. While just spitting into the hands of beautiful women. Watching the rugger together. Yeah, exactly.

Atta Welper actually bursts into tears. and he says, you know, I'm worried that with you gone, the others will kill me. So he's starting to wake up to that possibility then. And Ando says, I'm sure they won't kill you. No, I've promised you they won't kill you. But once he's gone, Atta Welper gets very miserable. He supposedly sees this comet which foreshadows his death. I think that probably didn't happen. But what did happen, he is extremely concerned about Al-Magro.

Because Al-Magro didn't capture him, has not spent time with him. It's just impatient to push on to Kusko and get his own share of the good. old. Now, what happens next is a very murky story, so we'll try to find our way through it, one of the murkiest stories of the whole conquest. What happened to Attawelper? Atta Welper said to Pizarra around this point, you know, you've pretty much got what you came for. Most of the ransom has arrived now. I think you can set me free a little bit, give me a bit more freedom to kind of walk around and stuff. Now, there are stories in some sources that one of the interpreters, called Felipeo, had fallen in love with one of Attawelper's mistresses, and

and basically wanted Attawalpa out of the way. So he starts telling the Spanish, oh, Atta Welper is betraying you. Atta Welper is planning to escape. He's planning to team up with Ruminyawi, who's his commander in Quito, who's the guy in the north. It's possible this is just a kind of literary device.

This didn't really happen. But even if it didn't happen, there is a genuine issue that it points to, which is, the Spanish have become, as time has gone on, more and more anxious about their position in Kahamaaka. They've got all this gold now, which they're sitting on, but they're very conscious that they're outnumbered.

And they're very worried about an attack from the north. So this guy, Ruminjawi, who's in Ecuador, who is the commander of the army there, they become very worried that he's basically the Jimmy Carter of this story. And he's going to launch a Delta 4-style Operation Eagle Claw rescue to spring Attawalper from his prison in Kajemark. Now, if they were students of history, and they'd listen to our series on the Iranian Revolution. No, nothing to worry there. They would know there was nothing to worry about. Actually, I have to say, as we'll discover next time, two more different people than Rumi Nyawi and Jimmy Carter could not be imagined.

I mean, Ruminjawi would never appear on TV in a cardigan to tell you to turn the thermostat down. He would turn you into a drum. That's what he would do. There's a little preview for the next episode. So, rumors start to flood into Kiyamaaka that Rumi Nya'i is on his way south. So one local chief says to Pizarro, men are coming under a great commander called Rumi Niawi, 200,000 people from Quito, and 30,000 caribs who eat human flesh. Yeah, so the cannibals are coming.

Yeah. And the Spanish, of course, take this seriously. Why wouldn't they? It's kind of mad that the Atteualpiz haven't attacked them. And surely they think only a matter of time before Attewepazamis decide they're going to try and rescue him. But I guess ultimately the issue comes down to, are they likely to survive? if Atulah is dead. Or if they release him, can they trust him to be their protector?

That's exactly right. I mean, that's ultimately the decision. They can't make up their minds. And Pizarro, I think, in particular, is very conflicted. They want to go to Costco to get more gold. So what do they do with Atowalpa? They could leave him behind? That's so risky.

He'll just turn on them, surely. They can see he's a hard man. Or number two, they could take him with them across the mountains. but that's risky too. Here we're focused for, you know, resistance. People will try to rescue him. It's so dangerous. The obvious answer, the simplest and cleanest, just get rid.

Kill him. That's what Cortez and Co. did with Montezuma. I think that's what Cortez and Co. did. The only thing that sort of cuts against that is, if they wanted to just get rid of him and all this stuff about Rumi Miawe is a pretext for doing what they always wanted to do, why does Pizarro hang around? And why are there so many accounts of him crying?

and being conflicted about it all. We have one account. He goes to see Atta Welp and he says, I've heard rumours that your men are going to come and rescue you and you're communicating with them through your knotted strings. And Atowalpa scoffed at him. Are you joking? What chance would my men have against men as brave as you?

Stop mocking me like this. And clearly some of the Spaniards do believe him. So one of the younger men, a guy called Pedro Catano, remembers that Atowalpa called Pizarro's bluff. If any warriors did come from Keito, they would be coming on my orders. Find out whether it's true. If it is true, then go ahead.

You can execute me. And the Spanish sources say that Pissarro found this very stressful. He couldn't decide what to do. He ordered Atta well to be chained by the neck at this point to stop him escaping. Is there not a kind of legal dimension to this? Because we've talked throughout how legalistic the Spaniards are. Yes. His entire governorship depends on royal approval.

Yes. And killing an emperor who you've promised life to, I mean, it's not a good look, is it, from the perspective of the Spanish court? Yeah. I mean, it may not just be kind of humanitarian instincts. It may be a genuine anxiety that he's torn between kind of legalistic imperatives and his sense of what would be practically the best thing to do, which would be to kill him. That's absolutely right. I think, as we will see, he knows perfectly well that Charles V will go ballistic if he finds out that Pizarra has murdered a monarch. I mean, even in this Aztec story, Cortez had to make up a load of nonsense about Montezuma

rebelling, having agreed to, in order to justify murdering Montezuma. And I think this is exactly what Pizarro is facing right now. Mid-July, 1533, he calls a big meeting to decide Attawapa's fate, and all the big guns are there. We're told that Pizarro and the men who had been there from the very beginning want to keep Attawelper alive. They say it's honorable to keep him alive. if they gave him their word because of the ransom, the ransom's been paid,

we should keep our side of the bargain. They say he's a really useful hostage. Why would you give up a hostage like this? They point out not a single Spaniard has been attacked or injured since they took him prisoner. Clearly, this is working, so let's keep him. And some of them actually clearly are fond of him.

You know, we know from the Chronicles and whatnot that there were people who spent their evenings talking to him through the interpreters, you know, and actually said, he's not such a bad guy. I don't think we should kill him. But the people who've come with Alvarado take a very different view. They've got no investment in him. They say he'll be a focus for resistance. The longer this goes on, the more likely it is that his people will turn on us. And crucially, we want to go to Kusco to get our share of the gold. Can we please stop hanging around? Can we

get rid? The Spanias can't agree. And Pizarro sends out a scouting party under Enando de Soto to see if this Northern Army really is coming. And while DeSoto is away, the tension mounts, to cut to the chase, there's an evening when they're playing cards. And a Spaniard comes in and says, there's more rumours, there's people saying there are Inca troops approaching the town. And Almagra and Pizarro have a huge row. And then a couple of evenings later, there is another such incident.

Local people say they've seen the villages outside fleeing before an Inca army. The Inca Army will be in Kakamaka and two days. days, you know, the moment has come. Now, this army does not exist. There is no attack on Kaka Marka. But as John Heming says in his book, the key to the story is the hysteria and the paranoia that has now seized the Spaniards. They're in the middle and nowhere. They're thousands of miles from home. They're surrounded by 12 million people. They're absolutely terrified now. This gold is going to be taken from them and they're going to be attacked. They've never fought an Inca army actually. They've attacked effectively unarmed Inca's in the square, but that's not

the same as a pitched battle where the Inca's are attacking them. I mean, I'd be paranoid in their shoes. Of course you would. Of course you would. So they have another meeting. Almagro and Coe demand another meeting. And this time, it's clear that Pizarro is outnumbered and the royal officials crucially back Almagro up and say, yeah, that's a welcome, must die. And so Pizarro agrees. I don't doubt the sources that Pizarro is very reluctant, because they're kind of unanimous on this point. And he says, fine, quote, Atta whalper must die since he had broken the peace and plotted treason in bringing men to kill the Christians. Now, the Spanish sources disagree on one thing, and actually historians themselves now disagree, was there a trial or wasn't there? Because some said there was, some said there wasn't.

I think it's because the conquistadors are so legalistic, they're always so anxious about being, you know, drawn into American style. lawsuits, that they have some kind of rudimentary court martial, because we do have accounts of it. I mean, some kind. So basically, a kangaroo court. Kangaroo court. Pizarra and Almagro are the judges and there's a prosecutor who's basically barking out questions at Attawalper. Did you kill Chwascar?

Did you force your subjects to sacrifice women and children to your gods? Were your wars just? Have you been giving orders for the Spaniards to be killed? Some of the Spanish sources say the questions were ridiculous and the interpreters were deliberately mangling the questions and Atta Welper's answers to portray him in the worst possible light. Atta Welper, for all that we've said, he's a very hard man. He's also a very emotional man. He breaks down in tears and he says, I can give you twice as much gold and silver as I've already given you if you'll spare me. And we're told that Pizarro was crying as well. But Pizarra at the end says, you have been found guilty of idolatry, heresy, regicide, fratricide, treason, polygamy, and incest. I mean, they really are throwing the book at him. And the sentence for all this is death. And because he had committed treason, he should die by burning unless he converted to Christianity.

Now, this is very worrying for Attawalpa because die by burning is unthinkable for an Inca. if he's going to live on in paradise, in Hanapancha, as the Inca's call it, then his body cannot be burned. Because you can't get into paradise if you've been burned. And they mummify the bodies, don't they? Yes, you must be embalmed. If you're the emperor, and we'll talk about this in the next episode, they will mummify you and then they'll give you your own palace in Kusko,

and they'll bring you out at festivals. For royal weddings and things. And parades and processions and things. You'll have your own servants and stuff when you're a mummy. This is terrible if Attau Lepa can't enjoy this future joy. Now, he doesn't have much time to think about it. The trial ends, so-called trial, if there is a trial, ends in the early hours of Saturday, the 26th of July.

And the Spaniards say we want to get this done by tonight. Basically, A, in case Attawalpa's rescued, or B, in case Pizarro changes his mind. And so that evening, nights falling, Attawelper is led out into the square in Kachamaka, the place where he had been captured before this big crowd, and he's tied to a stake. It's an absolutely kind of heart-rending scene, even though he is a bad man in some ways.

He's sobbing like a baby. He says, I want to entrust my children to Pizarro's protection. And Valverde, the Dominican friar, says to him, you know, forget about your children. Accept baptism and die like a Christian. We're told Attauilper continued to persist in commending his sons with great weeping, indicating their sighs with his hand, showing by the signs he made and by his words that they were small and that he was leaving them in keto. And eventually, Valverde says, well, you know, Pizarro will look after them and he'll, as though they're his own children.

And Atu Elper says, fine, in that case, I'll accept baptism and I'll become a Christian. And the irony there is that he's doing that to preserve his, you know, his supernatural potency in the kingdom of the gods. Yeah. So. Yes, exactly. Valverde then baptizes him and he gives him the name Francis. Francisco, of all names. And then he's not going to be burned. The guards tie a cord around Attawalpa's neck. And as Valverde leads the Spaniards in reciting the creed, Attaualpa is garotted. So that is the end of him. But a couple more details. First of all, the Spanish, of course, had promised him he would not be burned. Now, they don't burn him to ashes. They grill him. They give him a grilling. And then they leave his grilled body in the the square overnight, quote, for everyone to learn of his death. As that basically a message.

And that grilling, I think, is a gesture, you know, you and I talk about this before we started recording. I think this is a gesture of contempt for him, probably by the Almagreasters. So he's buried, isn't he, in the local church? Yes. But there are stories that people rescue the body, take it to Ecuador, up to keto, and mummify it. Yeah. And there are kind of archaeologists who go Honor. Indiana Jones type, yes, exactly. Maybe out there, Attawalpa's mummified body. Maybe. Lightly grilled is still there. Who knows? Yeah, I mean, it's perfectly possible. There is not, I think, straight away, but I think in subsequent decades, there starts to be this kind of cult of Atowalpa and a belief that maybe he might come back from the dead. Pedro Pizarro records a very weird scene.

Basically, two of Atalpa's sisters got into Pizarro's apartment and, quote, began to call for Attawalpa searching very softly for him in all the corners. But seeing that he did not answer, they went out making a great lamentation. I disabused them and told them that dead men do not return. The really interesting thing, though, is the reaction of the Spanish themselves. Remember I said that they'd sent off Enando to Soto to look for this northern army? Soto gets back and he says, there's no northern army. I mean, it's been made up.

There's no Inca troops advancing on the town. And then he discovers they've killed Attawalpa and he goes, absolutely ballistic. And he says, how could you do this behind my back when I was gone? I'm meant to be the number two man in this expedition. You've killed this guy who was our chief hostage and one of our biggest assets. Now, meanwhile, Pizarro, one of his secretaries, writes a report for him to Charles V, saying, I have executed a monarch, but I'm just going to explain exactly why I've done it. And the reaction in Spain was that Pizarro had behaved badly, not that Pizarro had done the right thing, but the Pizarro had let Spain down.

So there's a judge in Panama or Gaspard Espinoza who's writing all the time to Charles V, basically sending him reports of what these guys are getting up to in Peru. And he writes to Charles the 5th and he says the Spanish and Kakamaka are totally out of control. Their greed is so great as to be insatiable. The more the native chiefs give,

the more the Spaniards kill or torture them to give even more. He says they should never have killed that to Alpa, a man who'd fallen into their hands and who'd done no harm to any Spaniard. They could have sent him here to Panama, with his wives and servants as his rank deserved. We would all have honored him and treated him like a great noble of Castile. And actually, this becomes this established, this will surprise some listeners who just think of this, you know, who have subscribed to the black legend of Spain, of 16th century Spain as uniquely cruel and, you know, greedy and whatnot. Most Spanish chroniclers agreed that Pizarro had done the wrong thing.

So this is Gonzalo Fernandez de Oviedo in their 1530s. The killing of so great a prince was an infamous disservice to God and the emperor, an act of great ingratitude and outstanding evil. And this is probably most influential of all the Spanish writers about Peru, Pedro Theeitha de Leon in the 1550s. The most evil deed the Spaniards have done in all the empire of the Indies. It is widely vituperated and it's considered a grave sin. And this is definitely what the king himself thought, Charles V.

because when he wrote back to Pizarro, he said, we have been displeased by the death of Attau Leper since he was a monarch, and particularly as it was done in the name of justice, we will seek more information about this matter and then order what is necessary. And if you're Pizarro reading this, you surely think, oh no. And that's probably what Pizarro is worrying about. Exactly that reaction. Attawalper is dead.

And Pizarro's position is looking a little bit rickety. So his brother Hernando on whom he relied has gone back to Spain with some of the gold. His chief lieutenant, Anando de Soto, is furious with him about the death of Attauelper. And his partner, Diego de Amagro, is absolutely furious. Yeah, he's livid. Yeah, livid. He is livid. About the unequal division of the treasure.

And now, Pizarro and his men are facing their biggest challenge yet. Attawelper is dead and the empire is leaderless. So they need to find a new puppet on whom they can rely. And Tom, their road now lies south, up into the Andes, across the Inca heartland, to the city of Gold, Cusco. But what awaits them there is darker and bloodier and more dramatic than even they could possibly have imagined. Well, dear listeners, if you like darkness and blood-stained drama, then wow, we've got to treat for you in the next episode. Members of the Restis History Club, of course, can hear it right away, together with the final two episodes in this series. And if you're not a member of the Restis History Club, then you can join them by going to the Restis History.com to sign up.

But for now, Asteroa. Bye-bye. Anthony Scaramucci here. As much as I love talking politics, and let's be honest, it sometimes gets me in trouble. My other and probably safer passion is books.

We just dropped our 200th episode on my podcast, Open Book, another Goalhanger show. And to celebrate, we spoke with none other than Waterstones and Barnes & Noble CEO, James Dawn. Let's take a listen. It's a phenomenal piece of technology.

James. Everything has changed. Our phones have changed, our computer. The way we look at the TV, the book is a 500-year-old piece of technology. You think in 500 years it'll be with us, James? I think so, and I think it's astonishing simply how extraordinarily durable it is and effective it is. And as you say, newspapers, we don't read them anymore. It's on your iPad. It's on your phone. Music, the format changes all the time. Not with books. And I think when publishers also concentrate on the physical attributes of a book as well, they are lovely things and treasures forever there may be too many books being published right at this moment you believe that and tell us why far far too many books and it's getting ever ever worse this is speaking

as a bookseller who crafts a physical space so i only have so much space and there's more and more and lots of self-publishing nothing wrong with writing a book and wanting to see it out in the world but for myself i have to curate all the time and the bit that i regret is that people get upset with me for not carrying their book well i just can't I don't have the space for it. And that's really what I mean. The fact that they sell on Kindle or they sell on Nook or online is fine by me. I want people reading.

But I myself have to curate. And the reality is that I can't take the vast majority of books that are published. I hope you enjoyed that clip. To hear more from James Dawn and others, subscribe to Open Book with Anthony Scaramucci wherever you get your podcast.