The Rest Is History - 657. The Ku Klux Klan: American Fascists (Part 4)

Episode Date: April 1, 2026

After resurrecting in 1915, how did the Ku Klux Klan make its move on the next major American election? What was the role of women in the Klan? And, would this violent organisation finally meet its reckoning?  Join Tom and Dominic as they reach the tragic climax of their exploration into the rise and fall of the Ku Klux Klan.  _______ This episode is sponsored by Anthropic, the team behind Claude. Try Claude for free today at Claude.ai/restishistory. _______ Advertise with us: [e-mail] _______ To read our new newsletter, sign up at: therestishistory.com/newsletters _______ Twitter: @TheRestHistory @holland_tom @dcsandbrook Video Editors: Jack Meek, Harry Swan + Adam Thornton Social Producer: Harry Balden Producers: Tabby Syrett & Aaliyah Akude  Senior Producer: Callum Hill Executive Producer: Dom Johnson  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

The Kokomo on which the sun rose on July 4th was not the same Kokomo on which the orb of day set at the close of America's 147th birthday. Kokomo had had an awakening, a spiritual awakening. It had witnessed the spectacle of 200,000 men and women, filled with patriotism and love of country, one-fifth of a million men and women who, by their attendance, signified their belief in a living Christ and an open Bible. Journey from points afar to be present at a vast meeting wherein there were to be no carnival features, sporting events, circus stunts, or spectacular events. It saw staunch American farmers with their wives, merchants of repute,

bankers of integrity, honest and hard-working mechanics, doctors and men of all professions, leaders in their communities, ministers and devout church workers, in fact, men and women from every walk of life. Today, Kokomo made, may well boast that she has royally entertained the biggest crowd of 100% red-blooded Americans

that ever assembled at any one place at any one time in the history of America to do homage to God, the flag and the home. So stirring stuff there in the newspaper, The Fiery Cross, which was public, in Indianapolis on the 13th of July 1923, and it's describing an enormous Independence Day picnic. And I'm guessing, Dominic, from the name of that newspaper, The Fiery Cross, that the Ku Klux Klan may have something to do with this. Yeah, you're not wrong, Tom.

So this picnic was one of many bizarre and extraordinary episodes in the history of the second Ku Klux Klan, which we'll be talking about today. So last time, to give people a bit of a reminder, we talked about how the clan was reborn thanks to Thomas Dixon's book and play, The Clansman, the film, The Birth of a Nation, and the vision of a man called William J. Simmons, who wanted to basically make money by inventing his own fraternal order. Dominic, can I just ask, did Thomas Dixon join the clan? No.

He just sat there and enjoyed his money. No, Thomas Dixon had made all this money from the book and the play, but he didn't approve of the second clan. He condemned it. Interesting. That's a twist. Yeah, I think basically because he'd been shut out was part of it. But also, he condemned it as peddling hatred, which for the man who written the book, The Klansman, it's a bit rich.

It seemed a bit rich. But he didn't like the attacks on Catholics and Jews, interestingly. He thought that was poor from the clan. Anyway, so it was transformed. Simmons's attempt to basically make money by setting up a rival to the Masons, were transformed by two PR and marketing experts, Edward Young Clark. and Elizabeth Tyler, who we talked about last time, who launched this massive sales operation and a message of 100% Americanism, basically a defense of white Protestant America

against African Americans, but more importantly, Jews and above all Catholics. It was a huge hit, exploited the mood of anxiety at the end of the First World War, anxiety about immigration, about immorality, the big debate about prohibition, and it attracts at its peak maybe four million people, five million people. And we ended last time with the clan making big gains in the 1922 elections, sort of endorsing and campaigning for candidates for governor and winning lots of seats in state legislatures, and sending the first clan sort of open clan senator to the United States Congress from the state of Texas.

So we have now moved on six months. The Kokomo picnic takes place in Indiana. And Indiana is a state that will play a big part in today's episode, because in the mid-1920s, this is the supreme clan stronghold. And the story of the clan in Indiana is absolutely bizarre and it ends with a really lurid and strange murder scandal, which will come to in the second half. But just on this picnic, the article in the Fiery Cross says 200,000 people. This is maybe an exaggeration, but even the lowest estimates reckon that there are at least 50,000 people there. There were special trains chartered by the clan to bring people from neighbouring

states. The lines of picnic tables were longer than entire street blocks. And the report is actually disingenuous. The report said people were not drawn by carnival features, sporting events or circus stunts. This is not true. There was a kids area, a special kids area of the picnic. Well, the clan loved dressing up as clowns, don't they? Yeah, kids would love that. There was a boxing ring. There were choirs. There were circus performers. They had a big screen and they screen talkies, you know, films.

There was a plane circling overhead with a great flashing white cross. And get this, an acrobat standing on the plane doing stunts on the wing of the plane. God, who wouldn't want to see that? Of course you'd want to go and see that. Now, here's the mad thing. This was very, very typical of clan events in the mid-1920s. So they would hold hundreds of similar events all over America. They'd have barbecues, they have parades, that'd have baseball tournaments, and they'd have

these great picnics. They'd be advertised in the newspapers. They'd be heavily promoted by Methodist ministers in their sermons. They'd say, you know, go to the Kokomo picnic. Lots of God-fearing Americans will be there. And tens of thousands of people would go to these things. So it's weirdly, it's a kind of prefiguring of Woodstock in the 60s. Really?

I mean, that kind of idea of people turning in. up in, you know, to have huge kind of festivals, large crowds. I mean, obviously the, the vibe is very different. The vibe is different. But it's so often, things that seem distinctive about the 60s are being prefigured in kind of unsettling ways. I guess so. Yeah. I think what it takes inspiration from a lot is sort of state fairs. Have you ever been to one of these state fairs? No. I went to the Minnesota state fair once. Is it fun? I probably wouldn't go again deep down. I mean, mainly a lot of it seems to be eating these horrendous snacks, kind of corn dogs or whatever. But the idea of turning up in an enormous field and having a great festival.

Yeah, Americans love that. That's a thing, isn't it? Yeah, totally it is. But this, I mean, this did not happen at Woodstock. The Kokomo picnic, like most of these picnics, they will end with a cross burning on a hilltop. And there would be searchlights and flare. Sometimes there'd be fireworks. And these are great spectacles.

I mean, they're very expensive. But they pay for themselves because they're... great for recruitment. So there will be hundreds, if not thousands of people who will join the clan en masse on these occasions. And your point about, you know, woodstock and festivals and whatnot, this is the side of the clan that I think would surprise listeners who think of, well, the clan is obviously a hateful paramilitary organisation. This is the clan as family fun, as a fun day out. So actually, if you live in Oregon or you live in Indiana or somewhere, and you have kids and you're white and you're Protestant.

Going to one of these clan picnics, you know, it's a fun way to spend the day. And it's part of this huge social calendar. So the historian, social historian, Kathleen Blee, says, with the myriad of weddings, baby christenings, family picnics, athletic contests, parades, spelling bees, beauty contests, rodeos and circuses, the clan basically became, and I quote, an ordinary normal, taken for granted part of the life of the white Protestant majority. And when historians later did interviews with clan members, the thing that the clan members

from the 20s and were to about millions of people often said was, it was just, it was good fun. It was a laugh. We went along and people dressed up and there were circus stunts and there was sizzling burgers. I mean, this is wholesome fun rather than the castrating people and throwing them into the lake. Well, there's always that element, of course, to life in the clan. I don't want to undersell that element at all. But I think it is important to emphasise that it's not just about vigilante violence. So another aspect of this, which will surprise people, is how many women are involved.

So there's a historian called Linda Gordon, who's written a lot about this. She reckons about half a million women join the clan. Do they get costumes? They do get costumes, yeah. Now, this is not really surprising because women have always been very prominent in activist groups in American history. So some of the groups that basically fed into the clan,

so anti-immigration, eugenics, temperance, the anti-saloon league, these kinds of groups. Women were always a huge element of those groups. And at first, here's the amazing thing.

At first, women weren't allowed to join the clan, so they set up their own kind of unofficial groups. And then the men were like, oh, well, we can't have the ladies setting up their own unofficial groups.

We'll have to set up our proper ones. So they set up the queens of the golden mask and the ladies of the invisible empire, and then they merge them all eventually into the women of the Ku Klux Klan. The women generally, as it's so often the way, the women did most of the work. So they basically did the party planning. They organized the picnics. They did all the transport. They did all the catering and all of that kind of thing. But it wasn't just a kind of women's places in the home organisation. The clan supported women's right to vote and to work. it's the modernity of clans women that's so striking.

So Linda Gordon, give us an example of this woman called Daisy Barr, who was from Indiana, and she was in her mid-forties in the early 1920s. She came from a Quaker family. She had actually been a Quaker pastor before the First World War, so that was not unknown. And she was a colossal do-gooder. She was the president of the Indiana Humane Society, a campaigner for prohibition. She founded the Muncie Indiana YWCA. She founded a home for fallen women.

She was the president of the Indiana War Mothers. She was the first female vice chair of the Republican State Committee. So she's one of those women, we all know people like this, who does everything, first to volunteer, you know, high-minded, home for fallen women, you know, YWCA, all of that. And does she, does she get awarded a brilliant title as a reward? She was the imperial empress of the queens of the golden mask. You don't get that with the Quakers. Yeah. And she became the chief clan recruiter for eight Midwestern and border states.

So she's also making a bit of money on the side from the recruiting. And the thing, you look at someone like that and you say, well, is she far right? Because the clan, we perceive the clan as being far right. Or is she a progressive person with her interest in, you know, saving for women and women and setting up, you know, Christian groups and all this kind of thing. And the truth, of course, is that she's both and neither, that neither of these labels is enough to encompass her. They're both inadequate ways to capture the complexity of the politics of some of these people who joined the clan in the 1920s. That said, there is probably a danger of over-emphasizing the family-friendly normality of the clan. So Thomas Pigham, another historian, gives an example of another kind of fair appearance, which is the Texas State Fair in October 1923.

and at the Texas State Fair, a whole day was designated as Clan Day, and it was organized by Clan No. 66 of Dallas. And the flyer, I found the flyer online, gives it sets a very jolly tone. Meet your friends, Couguag's Clan Day, winners initiation of the largest class in the history of clandum, spectacular fireworks display, mass band concert, competitive drills by the women of the Ku Klux Klan drill team. You and your friends are invited to attend this,

the most wonderful day of your life. I mean, imagine if it was. Yeah, there can't be accused of underselling it. No. 150,000 people went to this. 150,000 people. And there were clan-themed rodeos and bands and all of this, hot dogs, you name it. But the clan that had organized at clan number 66 was one of the most violent in the country.

It had a reputation for kidnapping and flogging people. Is this the one with the flogging field? The flocking field in Dallas. the flocking meadow, exactly. And one of its alumni was a guy called Hiram Evans, who we'll be talking about later. He had led some of these beatings. He is now the Imperial Wizard, and he gives a blood-curdling speech at this occasion. He describes African Americans as savage. He describes Jews as alien and money-mad. And above all, he says, Catholics pose the greatest danger to our institutions because they belong to a corrupt church that thrives upon ignorance. And he is saying this

these 150,000 people who are eating their hot dogs and enjoying the rodeos and whatnot. In other words, the racist bigotry and the threat of violence is never that far away, even at the most apparently anodyne, you know, wholesome, family-friendly outing. And this issue of violence, I mean, American historians have kind of really got stuck into each other about just how violent the clan was and how important to it. Basically, it depends on what state you look at. So historians who've looked at southern states, which were already very violent. often really emphasize how important violence was.

So Nancy McLean writing about Georgia or Glenn Feldman writing about Alabama. But then there are other historians who say, are you not maybe over exaggerating this? For example, it's an odd thing. People associate the clan with lynching. Do you not think, Tom, when people think about the clan, they think about lynching? Yeah, absolutely. But lynching actually peaked in the 20th century before the clan ever grew. It peaked in 1919 and then declined at precise to the point when the clan is rising.

Is that because they're all off having their hot dogs and things? I think it's because lynching and the clan are two different things. Most clan violence is nocturnal. It's vigilante violence later night. Lynchings, I mean, as shocking as it will seem to most of our listeners, are open, public occasions, carried out in broad daylight. Nobody wears masks. The openness is part of the point.

It's a sort of public collective ritual, a lynching, as horrific as it may be. Now, that doesn't mean that we should downpriced. play clan violence completely, and let's get into some of this violence. So by the mid-1920s, especially in the northern states, it is becoming a really serious issue because there's a lot of violence against Catholic groups. So there's a rival to the clan among the Catholics called the Knights of Columbus. The Knights of Columbus has been founded in 1882, so it's older than the clan. But it fought back quite vigorously. I mean, they have a similar, you know, like all these fraternal orders, they have secret passwords and handshakes and signs and

stuff. But they fight back and there were brawls in a lot of Midwestern states, open brawls, even gunfights. So Lily, Pennsylvania in 1924, fighting between hundreds of clansmen and locals and Knights of Columbus and whatnot ends with this kind of street battle, which there's gunfire across the street. Three people end up being shot in the crossfire and so on. And in some places, the paramilitary dimension definitely gets out of control. And this brings me to the state of Illinois, Midwestern state. So the clan was established in Illinois in 1921. It got lots of members in Chicago, but it did really well downstate in southern Illinois in the rural counties. It had hundreds of individual lodges or Clavons downstate, and it had these enormous outdoor rallies.

And in one county in particular, if you listened last week, we were talking about York County, South Carolina, where the first clan became entrenched. And one of its equivalents in the 1920s is a place called Williamson County in Illinois. So in Williamson County, that's at the very southern tip of Illinois. So far down, you might as well be in Kentucky or Tennessee. And it's a coal mining country. It's already an unhappy place because there's been lots of strikes and labor unrest, violence between unions and strike breakers. And the other thing about Williamson County that's so interesting is loads of European immigrants have moved in.

So a fifth of the population is now Catholic, and these tend to be Italians from Lombardy, they're Lombards. And there's lots of local anxiety about Catholicism and saloons and prostitution and all of this kind of thing. So it's perfect territory for the clan. And the clan arrived in an absolutely typical style. They marched in in their robes to the first Christian church of Marion, and they handed over three fresh, $10 bills to the minister. and the minister held up the dollar bills to his flock, and he said, that tells you they stand for something good. And so everybody joined the clan, or at least a lot of people did,

and the clan held these big open-air meetings with burning crosses, and they said, we have come here to clean up the county and to purge vice and whatnot. But the bloke they got to lead their crusade was a very violent man. He was called S. Glenn Young, and he'd formerly worked for the Justice Department, but he'd been kicked out of his prohibition units for basically excessive zeal. And he forms paramilitary squads of Klansmen, and they basically launch raids across Williamson County. And they take hundreds of people prisoner, because they're working in cahoots with the kind of local cops.

He and his Klansmen take hundreds of prisoners and herd them back in kind of chain gangs to the town jails. He starts to wear a military uniform. He carries two handguns. He sometimes carries a machine gun. They will beat up their prisoners. They will attack immigrants. They attacked so many French and Italian people in their homes that the local consuls of both countries launched formal protests to the US government about the way their citizens were being treated. Eventually, the Illinois state authorities sent in the National Guard to restore order. Young was arrested for assault and battery, but he and his bodyguards, when they went to court. They went to court with their machine guns, like holding their machine guns, and they were promptly acquitted. I mean, that is one way to get off the charge. So at this point, the state authorities flooded the county with National Guardsmen to try to basically clamp down on the clan. David Chalmers puts it, before the whole episode was over, practically every prominent man in the county, judges, policemen, sheriffs, mayors, county supervisors and states its

is came under indictment for conspiracy, kidnapping, assault, malfeasance, riot or murder. Guardsmen with fixed bayonets and emplaced machine guns became a part of everyday life. This is an insane thing to happen in this county in the middle of nowhere. By the spring of 1924, it's basically become a complete war zone. This guy young and his men are utterly out of control. It's like a Caldeo in South America, traveling around with hordes of machine gun totes. bodyguards. So it's quite like that county in the first episode. Yeah, York County, South Carolina. Yeah, the one where I went in and cleaned it up. Oh, Major Merrill, Major Lewis Merrill. Yeah.

Presumably, they can't, the federal government cannot bring order to everywhere where the clan are running riot. I guess so. I mean, in this case, it's National Guard that are sent in, and they do eventually do it, but it takes years. The American system, you're so dependent on local authorities. Yeah, that if they get corrupted, it's a kind of... That they get corrupted, what can you do? And this is the story of the American South in the first half of the 20th century. Yeah. What can you do? I mean, the showdown is beyond parody. Basically, Young had a gunfight in this mining town with a bootleggar called Charlie Berger. They had a final sort of, you know, once upon a time in the West-style confrontation

in a soft drinks parlour. Of course, it's prohibition. Even though this guy's a bootlegger. I don't know. What's he doing in the soft drinks parlour? Maybe he's just having a milkshake. A soda. Sure, step away from the beverage fountain. Yum. Well, anyway, this bootlegger and Young, the paramilitary, they opened fire at each other at the same point. The bootlegger was shot but survived, but Young was shot and killed. His funeral in the county was a huge clan occasion. 40,000 people went to his funeral, and he was interred in a special mausoleum with a clan on a guard.

Initially at first, men with machine guns stood by his tomb, sort of day and night. I mean, do you think they're still there? Surely not. I don't know. Anyway, all of this is very bad publicity for the clan. But actually, what's going on inside the higher echelons of the clan is equally terrible publicity. So to recap, Tom, you will recall that after the summer of 1920, the clan was effectively led by three people. So there's this guy who looks like the Northamptonshire lawyer.

Yeah, garter salesman. Dr. Saliseman. William J. Simmons. The guy who basically hired the bus and taken his friends up the mountain and set some planks on fire. And then there's the couple who were found in bed with a bottle of whiskey. Yeah. Edward Young Clark and Elizabeth Tyler. And Elizabeth Tyler looks like Queen Victoria. Yes. They bonded over a publicity campaign for eugenics. And now we're running the Southern Publicity Association. They sound a fun couple. So these three people between them had made loads of money from the clan. But by 1921, the regional leaders of the clan were plotting against them.

Are these the goblins? Goblins. Exactly. Goblins. So you can never trust a goblin. They'll always get you in the end. So basically, the goblins gripes are as follows. First of all, they say these three people have paid a ton of money from the clan,

and it's not right, and we should have some of their money. They are very displeased about these two people being caught in bed with a bottle of whiskey. And they've lost confidence in the imperial. real wizard. That's a terrible thing to have happened. Yeah. Again, it's this whole Wizard of Oz thing. Well, like the Wizard of Oz, he's too old. It's old fashioned. The more go-ahead members of the clan think he looks like a relic in his frock coat and his kind of pouncenae glasses. Worse, he's been known to hang around at horse

races drinking. And given the clan's commitment to prohibition, this is very poor from William Simmons. So at the end of 1921, four grand goblins. Went to Atlanta. Went to Atlanta. Four. Four grand goins.

Yeah. Imagine going into a railway carriage and finding this four grand goblins. Four grand gobbins have gone to Atlanta and they have a showdown with Simmons and they say,

you've got to fire these people, Clark and Tyler. They're cooking the books, the hands in the till, which is almost certainly true. They're skimming off loads of money. Get rid. After a lot of pressure,

Mrs. Tyler is the first to go. She says she's exhausted. She needs some to spend time with her daughter. Actually, she's almost certainly been embezzling money. And then what happens? At the end of May 1922, William J. Simmons, the original founder of the second clan, says he's going to take a sabbatical from the clan.

He's been ill and he needs to rest. Actually, he's been drinking and he needs to dry out. So he's going to take a break. And in his absence, the sole surviving member of the PR partnership, who's Edward Young Clark, will be the acting imperial wizard. Now, what follows is a bit tangled, so prepare yourselves, and it makes Stalin's court seem friendly and easygoing.

Clark, the PR man, is now the acting imperial wizard, but he needs allies to run the clan. And his chief ally is the head of the clan's secretariat, who is called Hiram Wesley Evans. So we've met him before, haven't we? He's popping up all over the place, giving rants, mad rants, I mentioned Stalin and I said he was the head of the clan's secretariat and people who know

about the rise of Stalin and how he was the basically in charge of all the membership lists will maybe guess what's coming. Hiram Evans was from Texas. He was the son of a judge. Unusually for a leading figure in the clan, he actually was well educated. But he ended up becoming a dentist and apparently a very mediocre dentist. His dental rivals dismissed him as a mere tooth puller. So his remedy for everything was just to pull out your teeth. But he didn't mind that the fact that he was mediocre. He leaned into it. He called himself the most average man in America. And this was part of his populist message. I'm an ordinary person. I will appeal to ordinary clansmen. So he's an every man. He looks, is medium height. He's chubby. He's soft spoken. Like a lot of clansmen,

he's joined loads of different societies in lodges and stuff. But as so often in the story, there is a dark side. He is the guy who was the head of the Dallas Lodge. Oh, so the whipping meadow. The whipping the kidnappings. He'd been the bloke who'd been in charge of branding a man, which happened in the last episode, in acid on his head. So he is actually Stalin. Anyway, this dentist, Evans, Mrs. Tyler and Clark had basically recognized his ambition, and they'd brought him to run membership recruitment, and they paid him a lot of money. And he He used this to entrench his power and to win over a lot of the regional managers. Yes, very Stalin.

Yeah, very Stalin. He is Stalin, basically. It's the American Stalin. And he, as time goes on, 1921, 1922, he says to the Grand Goblins, these PR people are corrupt. I should be running the clan. And he'd launched his coup, very Stalin style. Stalin would have launched his coup at the sort of Congress of some party Congress.

This is what Hiram Evans does. It is the first annual convocation of the clan in Atlanta in November 1922. So Simmons, the founder, has just got back from sabbatical and resumed his position as Imperial Wizard. The night before the conference begins, Evans calls a meeting in his Atlanta hotel. And one of the people in the meeting is the rising star of the northern clan, who is the boss in Indiana, who is going to. called David C. Stevenson. Remember this man, David C. Stevenson. He will play a big part in the second

half. They get together, the Grand Goblins, these people, and they say, yeah, we're going to launch a coup against Simmons. And they go over to Simmons's house, which as you will record, is called Clan Crest. And at 3 a.m., they persuade Simmons to accept a promotion to emperor from Imperial Wizard. But what Simmons doesn't realize is the title of Emperor is utterly meaningless. he has secretly been stripped of his power. So Dominic, are prefiguring there of the series that we'll be doing after this, which is about 12th century Japan. Right.

And this is what happens to the emperors of Japan? The emperor's become ciphers, yes. Yeah, well, there you go. So basically, Simmons is kicked upstairs to become emperor, and Evans will become the new imperial wizard. And his ally, this guy Stevenson from the north, who will talk about in the second half, he becomes the sort of supremo in the north.

He gets a free hand in the north. The one person they still need to get rid of, though, is the other PR man, Edward Young Clark. He unfortunately has blotted his copybook further. First of all, he went to a prohibition offense, gave a speech about the evils of drink, got absolutely hammered. And they got hammered afterwards and was arrested for drunkenness. And secondly, he's just been indicted for violating the man act. What he has done, he's been accused of. of smuggling women across state lines for immoral purposes, because he had arranged for a young girl

who was the sister of a bank robber to travel, and I quote, to travel from Houston to New Orleans to assuage his loneliness. Right. As Imperial Wizard, Hiram Evans terminates this guy's contract, and then there's a year of demented legal infighting where Simmons and Clark, so the founders, try to set up their own rifle to the clan. There's a lot of fighting about copyright. And then in February 1924, Hiram Evans, the Stalin, the Texas Stalin dentist, he offers them a deal.

He basically buys Simmons off, pays him $146,000. So this is the end of the founders of the clan. They basically fade from the scene. Simmons, the guy who had originally tried to relaunch the second clam, he retires. He tries to set up a new group called inevitably, the knights of the flaming sword, that's a failure and he dies. So this leaves the dentist,

Hiram Evans, in charge of the clan. This has been terrible publicity for them. I mean, the revelations of corruption and immorality in the newspapers, a lot of ordinary members are left very disillusioned. But Evans thinks he can take the clan to even greater heights. He's got big plans. He wants to clean up corruption. To do that, he puts the Klegals, the recruiters on salary, not on commission, so they'll behave better. He wants to clamp down on drinking in the clan. He says, come on. If we're the shocked troops of prohibition,

we shouldn't be getting arrested all the time for drunkenness. He says the vigilante violence needs to be brought back under control. Klansmen should swear an oath to obey the law. But what he wants to do above all is to move into mainstream politics. He starts hiring Washington speechwriters and consultants. He starts, in clan propaganda, starts to say that the clan has a longer tradition in American politics than is generally thought. And they say their great hero is somebody who's been on the rest of history before.

He's Uncle Jumbo, Big Steve. He's Grover Cleveland. Oh, it's great to have him back on the show. It's great to have him back on the show. So the clan hold him up and they say he's the kind of president we want. Why? What do they admire about him? I think there's various elements.

So Grover Cleveland was a Protestant. He liked German. Remember he was hanging out in German beer halls? and eating a lot of sausages. Yeah, so they like that. He'd cut a good figure to Clan Picnic. Also, Graverickin does kind of tick a Clan Box, in that there are enormous suspicions

about shady behaviour with women who are much younger than himself. Yes, of course, because he married his ward, didn't he? He married his ward. And, of course, there was the whole incident with Ma-Mah, Where's My Pa? Gone to the White House, ha, ha, ha, ha. So he kind of, although he had nothing to do with any clan,

you can kind of see why they might hold him up as an inspirational figure and a role model that they would want to follow. The maddest thing that Evans does, though, is he says we should move our headquarters to Washington so that we will be big kingmakers in national politics. And in order to fund the move, he sells the imperial palace in Atlanta to the Catholic Church. No. What a bombshell. What a twist. It is a twist. Now, the reason he has done that is because presidential elections are coming in 1924, and Evans wants to play The Kingmaker. However, there is a problem. There is a ticking time bomb at the heart of the clan.

And this is his northern ally, the man I mentioned earlier, and I said to listeners, keep him in your heads. We'll come to him second half. He is the Grand Dragon of Indiana, David C. Stevenson. and he is about to become engulfed in the scandal to end all scandals, one of the weirdest and most shocking murders that we've ever done on the rest is history. Well, let's take a break and when we return, it will be with the murder of Madge Oberholzer. This episode is brought to you by Claude by Anthropic.

Now Tom, you and I, when we're together, we always argue about one thing, don't we? It's the existence or otherwise of the Loch Ness monster. But you foolishly are sceptical and you don't think that there is a monster beneath the freezing waters of that Scottish lock. Because as I know from AI, a plesiosaur would not be able to survive in Scottish waters because they'd just be too cold for it. Tom, this back and forth is what makes studying history so fun and actually Claude was made for this kind of thinking. The deep research feature can pull from dozens of sources at once. It can surface contradictions between them and it can give you a full breakdown. with citations so that you can trace the evidence yourself. It's like having a research partner

who's read literally everything and wants to chat about what it actually means. So very like Dominic actually. Try Claude for free at clod.a.ai slash rest is history. Where are my gloves? Come on, heat. Any day now? Winter is hard, but your groceries don't have to be. This winter. winter, stay warm. Tap the banner to order your groceries online at walla.ca. Enjoy in-store prices without leaving your home. You'll find the same regular prices online as in-store.

Many promotions are available both in-store and online, though some may vary. Hello, everyone. Welcome back to The Rest is History. And Dominic, we promised you the murder of Madge Oberholzer, crazy and horrible way of death. And we'll be coming to her, weren't we? Yeah, absolutely bizarre. method of death that nobody could possibly anticipate. So in the second half of the state's episode, we're getting into the state of Indiana. This is the state where the clan was most embedded.

A quintessential middle American state, I'm guessing for loads of our listeners who are not American, they've probably never thought about the state of Indiana. They've never been there. It's just right in the middle of the United States. You don't really think about it. But it became by far the clan's most faithful heartland. It's very white. It's very Protestant. And for that reason, anti-Catholicism had long been a potent force in the state's public life. A lot of the histories of the clan tell this brilliant story as an example of how anti-catholic Indiana was. There was a place called North Manchester, and the preacher there said to his congregation one day, he was giving this sort of incredibly sort of rabble-rousing speech, and he said, search everywhere for hidden enemies,

vipers at the heart's blood of our sake of republic. Watch the trains. The Pope may even be on. on the northbound train tomorrow. And according to some of these histories, Adam, this surely must be a problem. A lot of people took this literally, in the next day there are a thousand people at the stage. Waiting for the northbound train. The train stopped on its way to Chicago.

A bloke got off, and people grabbed him and mobbed him. It's the Pope. And actually, he was a man selling ladies corsets. That's what he said. Is that what the Pope would say if he came in disguise? If he's undercover, yeah. The idea that the Pope would go undercover to North Manchester, Indiana. I love it.

Anyway, the secret of the clan's success in Indiana is about individual political leadership and salesmanship. And this brings us to the last of the bizarre characters that have played a part in this story. And this is David C. Stevenson. And he's the northern leader who allied with the Texas dentist Hiram Evans to take control of the clan in 1922. And running through this story, actually, has been sort of weird parallels with the Great Gatsby. And David C. Stevenson is very, very J. Gatsby. He claimed to be the rich son of a millionaire businessman

who'd fought in the First World War and risen to become a major and been decorated for bravery and then made a fortune selling coal. This was totally untrue. He was the son of a poor sharecropper from Texas, born in 1891. He dropped out of school. He'd been a printer's apprentice in Oklahoma. He joined the army, but he never even got to Europe. He was a recruiter. He did sell coal, but as a

traveling salesman. I mean, a traveling coal salesman, that's a terrible thing to be. Anyway, that's what he was. He really does have a dark side. He's a very ruthless and unscrupulous and shady man. By the early 1920s, Stevenson has been married three times. He has a history of beating and abandoning his wives and of trying to sexually assault, rape other women. He's a stout man. he's always perfectly dressed, very conservatively. So he looks a kind of jolly, prosperous, successful man. So a kind of Uncle Jumbo vibe there then? A little bit, but I mean, Grover Cleveland, just to be clear,

I think did we not quit Glover Cleveland of many of the charges? Yeah, we did, but he was fat and jolly. He was fat and jolly, yeah. This guy is fat and jolly as well, but in a sort of incredibly cede sinister way. He needs to find a vehicle for his talents. He's really got the gift of the gap. And Stevenson eventually makes a misstep. He runs for Congress as an anti-prohibition Democrat.

Oh, God. Rookies error. Mad error in Indiana. The Republicans absolutely hammer him. And so he switches to a pro-prohibition. And he joins the clan. And in early 1922, he becomes the clan boss in a place called Evans Town, Southern Indiana. And although he's only just turned 30, he's sort of master of sort of stunts.

gimmicks. So one of his gimmicks is he says to his cronies, never address me by my real name. Just call me the old man. It's like when Paul Inns, when he played for Manchester United, he insisted that people call him the governor. In this case, Stevenson insists that people call him the old man. He's a brilliant speaker, a rallies, doesn't know very well, and he turns the newsletter, the Fiery Cross into this weekly newspaper, and he recruited 9,000 paperboys to sell it across the Midwest. So is he the guy who's running that big festival that we began this episode with?

Yeah, he makes a dramatic entrance at the Kokomo picnic. Okay, great. So he's an incredibly successful recruiter and salesman. So in Southern Indiana, within a year, he is persuaded, and this is a staggering figure, one third of the entire adult white male population to join the clan.

Thousands of people joining every week. Huge parades. in all of these little towns, Fort Wayne, Crawfordsville, Jeffersonville, Winnamac and Coca-mole. And, you know, there'll be night parades with drums and all this kind. He's an expert and all this. Now, there is an element of vigilantism. Southern Indiana had a history of vigilantes that'd been, I didn't actually know this

until reading up on this episode, there'd been a thing called the white capping movement in Indiana, vigilantes who acted as moral police. so they would go around targeting errant wives and lynching people who were suspected criminals and stuff. And Indiana still has a law that basically legalizes vigilantes. So county commissioners will swear in Klansmen as special constables. They have the right to bear arms and to arrest suspects. They will launch attacks on bootleggers. But they also organize mass boycotts of Jewish-owned businesses or Catholic shops and all of these kinds of things.

So there's that element to it, but that's not the whole essence of the clan in Indiana. There's a whole book about the Indiana clan by Leonard Moore called Citizen Clansman. Leonard Moore says, yes, there is violence, but there's an awful lot of barbecues and bake sales going on as well. That actually, as strange as it may seem, in sort of 1920, 1923, if you are an ordinary white Protestant, you join the clan in Indiana. It just becomes the thing that absolutely everybody does. they see it as an expression of their Protestant values and Protestant virtues. And the irony is the man at the top who's organized all this, who's profiting from it, is an absolute sheister and a crook and the complete antithesis of clean living family values.

Because this is this guy, Stevenson. So Stevenson, he gets more and more successful. And his apotheosis comes at the Kokomo picnic. because the climax of that picnic is him being inaugurated as the grand dragon of Indiana. And it's already been a brilliant day. Remember, there's been all these buns and burgers. There's been a man doing stunts on a plane, right? All of that.

And now you get to see a bloke become a dragon. Right. And another plane comes in from the south. And people are all excited. Who is it? Who is it? And the plane circles slowly. Then it lands in the field.

Massive excitement. And this bloke Stevenson gets out and he's dressed in a silken purple robe. And he's escorted to the platform. And there's great cheers from the tens of thousands of people. And he raises his hand. And then he gives possibly the most shameless speech we've ever had on the rest of history. He says, my worthy subjects, citizens of the invisible empire, clansmen all, greetings. It grieves me to be late.

The president of the United States kept me unduly long. counseling upon vital matters of state. I mean, how people are listening to this and believing it is mind-boggling. And then he says, Only my plea that this is the time and place of my coronation obtained for me surcease from his prayers for guidance. So the idea that this guy has been hanging out

with who is the present at this point, I guess it's Calvin Coolidge, and I only managed to get away to attend the picnic at the last minute, would strike surely most people is laughable, but I guess a lot of people at the Kokomo picnic, like the idea that the Grand Dragon... Yeah, and he's their Grand Dragon. Yeah, it's not just anybody's Grand Dragon.

He's Indiana's Grand Dragon. So he's now Supreme Leader in Indiana, and he's making a lot of money, and he's enjoying himself. He doesn't care about... I mean, don't forget he was an anti-prohibition Democrat initially. He doesn't give a damn about the politics. He's skimming off millions of dollars.

He buys a summer house. He buys a yacht on Lake Erie. He has loads of congressmen around, very sort of Jay Gatsby behaviour. He's drinking all the time. But also, this is the thing that brings him down. He is a demented sexual predator. So the first thing that happens is he's caught in his Cadillac with his secretary with his pants down, to use the American expression. The police let him off, I think, on this occasion.

Then he calls a manicurist to his hotel room and sexually assault her. And in the statement she gave later, she said, when she arrived to do his nails, he was already drunk. He said he would give me $100 if I would allow him to have intercourse with me. Of course, he was more rude than I care to be in expressing it. I told him, I was not in the habit of being insulted by anyone like that, and he said, you will or I'll kill you. This gives you a sense of the kind of man. Then in summer 1924, during another party, another woman went to the police, she said that during the party he locked her in the room, knocked her down, bit her and attempted to rape her.

And even at the picnic, he disgraces himself. He assaulted another woman afterwards, and she told investigators he is a beast when he is drunk. And again, he had tried to bite her, she said. So this will become a feature. Now, Stevenson, why is he doing all this? Partly because he thinks he can get away with it. He has now built this incredible political organization, which he nicknames the military machine. Every Indiana Clavern, Clan Lodge, will draw up data on every candidate for political office.

in the state of Indiana, and the clan will sift through them all. And the data includes every opinion these people have ever expressed, their schools, their kids go to, their ethnic background, all of these kinds of things, what clubs they've joined. Then the clan makes its choice. The clan will then campaign for these people. They will get Protestant ministers to talk about them in their sermons. They will publish the approved slate in Sunday school newsletters. Klansmen will leave a special copy of the fiery cross telling you how to vote on your porch on election day. They have hundreds of cars ready to take Protestant voters to the polls. Clans women will stand ready to mind people's children so women can go and vote, all of this.

And it's a brilliant success. It is an object lesson in how political organisation in kind of local America works. because in 1924, almost every single clan candidate in Indiana is elected to office, going all the way from mayors and district attorneys to sheriffs and school boards. And Stevenson thinks to himself, well, if I can do this in Indiana, I can do this anywhere. So in his headquarters in Indianapolis, he has a bust of Napoleon. He has eight phones, including one of them which he claims is a direct line to the White House, but no one has ever allowed to lift it because it's obviously just a complete fake.

And Hicke says to his aides, I'm a nobody from nowhere, but I've got the biggest brains and I'm going to be the biggest man in the United States. And the first step to this is basically seizing control of the National Clan from the dentist. So in the summer of 1924, he declares independence from the National Clan, and he triggers this clan civil war. So it's basically Indiana is leading a revolt against Atlanta. There's a huge and very bizarre and Baroque struggle for power in which they're sort of suing each other for libel, Stevenson's local lodge is persuaded to kick him out. He accuses Hiram Evans of blowing up his yacht. I'm not sure how true that is.

And this struggle in summer of 1924 seems perfectly poised. So let's just pause that here because we're in the middle of 1924. And don't forget, the clan is going to try and get involved in national politics and play the part of Kingmaker. Now, the clan has already been very successful. They've elected a senator from Texas. They've worn all sorts of public offices. and states as diverse, as we talked last time, as Oregon and in the northwest and Texas,

right down by the Mexican border. They have probably got about 16 senators in the U.S. Senate, loyal to the clan, and about 75 congressmen in the House of Representatives, and probably 11 governors. Again, loyal to the clan. These are Linda Gordon's figures. But what they really want to do

is to play a part in the presidential election. So the Republican candidate in the presidential election is Calvin Coolidge. He in some ways would be a suitable candidate for the clan. He's of Protestant stock going back to the Puritans in the 17th century. He's very clean living in all of this. But Coolidge hates the clan. He never made a public statement about them, but he is known to dislike them. He never knowingly appoints the Klansman to public office. And Coolidge supports black civil rights. And he goes out of his way to praise the contribution. that immigrants have made to American life.

So he thinks basically the Ku Klux Klan are evil? Yeah, he thinks that, you know, a total scum. Yeah. So the clan then turn their attention to the Democrats, and they all go en masse to the Democratic Convention at Madison Square Garden in New York. Hiram Evans, the dentist, leads the clan leadership. And they know who they want to be the Democratic candidate,

and he's actually the favorite. He is the son-in-law of Woodrow Wilson, who had praised the birth of a nation. This is a man called William Gibbs McAdoo. and Macadoo is the former US Treasury Secretary. Macadou is a huge fan of prohibition. He is the candidate, the champion of rural Protestant America. And standing against him for the Democratic nomination is the clan's worst enemy,

their worst nightmare. Al Smith, the governor of New York, a Catholic. Oh my God, the horror. And the convention, it's the longest convention nominating process in American history. it took 103 ballots, 103 rounds of voting to get a winner. To the clan's delight, Al Smith does not win, but to their horror, William Gibbs-McCadoo doesn't win either.

The convention compromises on the former ambassador to Great Britain who's called John W. Davis. No one needs to worry about him. He's completely forgotten. And what's worse for the clan is there's then a massive row about the clan itself. basically the anti-McCadoo people, the delegates, introduced a resolution to condemn the clan and it almost passed, it lost by four votes out of more than a thousand votes. And for the clan, this is a terrible shock.

They're actually, they're not as influential in importance as they thought. So they're not kingmakers at all? They're not kingmakers after all. And as the convention breaks up and we go to the national election, which Coolidge ends up winning, The clan look at their membership roles, and their membership roles are beginning to fall, shockingly, because all the infighting means that a lot of ordinary clansmen are kind of lost confidence in the organisation. You know, they're all squabbling among themselves. They all look like they're really corrupt. There's so many revelations of bad behavior. Then when the people go to the poll, the American people go to the polls in November 1924, in Texas, which had been the, you know, it had been the great state where the clan had made their breakthrough.

they'd got the senator in and whatnot. There is a backlash against the Klan. Their candidate for governor, their total disbelief, ends up losing. Anti-Klan candidates are elected across the board. The new Texas legislature passed a law against wearing masks. Klansmen are stripped of their public offices. They're driven out of the Democratic Party.

And suddenly, membership of the Klan just drops off a cliff in Texas. So by 1926, the Klan lodges in Dallas, Houston, San Antonio and Fort Worth, which had been very, very popular, some of the most successful in the country have fallen so far they're in the hands of receivers. And membership in Dallas, a boom city for the clan in the early 20s, is down in just a couple of years from 13,000 people to barely 1,000 people. So the clan seems to be imploding, and then we get the scandal. So this is the story of Madge Oberholzer, which is, I have to warn us, it is.

It's a pretty grim story, so prepare yourselves. Madge Oberholz, who enters the story of the clan on the 12th of January, 1925. She went to a party for the inauguration of the new Indiana governor, Ed Jackson, who was widely seen as the clan's puppet. And at this party, she met David C. Stevenson, the, what is it, the grand dragon? And what is match like? So Madge is 28 years old. She's very shy. She's not an especially socially dazzling person.

She lives with her parents, Methodists. She runs the Indiana Young People's Reading Circle. So they start dating. They go, they dance and they start dating. On the 15th of March, Stevenson's secretary rang her parents' home. And she said, the Grand Dragon needs to see Madge at once. So she changed into her best black dress, and his bodyguard picked her up and drove off with her into the night. And she arrived at Stevenson's house to find him incredibly drunk.

And he and his men then forced her to drink loads of whiskey until she was sick. And then they hustled her into a car and took her off to Union Station, Indianapolis. And they put her onto the train to Chicago with Stevenson in Stevenson's private compartment. And she presumably is a virginal, god-fearing, upstanding spinster. Exactly. That's exactly what she is. Methodist home, lives with her parents, likes reading, all of that. The train sets off. And once the train sets off, she is now absolutely slaughtered because they forced her to drink all this whiskey. And he repeatedly rapes her. She's so drunk that she can't resist. And what is more, he bites her all over her body. So very deep bites. I mean, these are not,

you know, these are serious bites like he is literally, it's said afterwards like he was literally trying to chew her. So from her kind of from her head all the way down to her. feet. They reached the town of Hammond, which is just outside Chicago, just on the Indiana side of the state boundary. And they get out there and check into her hotel. She's sort of being carried by his bodyguards. At one point, she says to Stevenson, I'm going to set the law on you, and he says to her, I am the law in Indiana. They go up to the room. He falls asleep. She persuades his chauffeur to take her out to a drugstore. And there she buys some mercury bichloride tablets, which were used then to treat syphilis.

She wanted to kill herself. She was so horrified and ashamed about what had happened to her. She takes three of the tether. She intended to take the lot, but she could only swallow three, and immediately became horribly ill and started vomiting blood everywhere. Stevenson has now woken up from his drunken stupor, and he panics, and he says to his bodyguards, drive us back towards Indianapolis.

In the car, she's in a terrible state, poor mad. She's being sick all over the car. Stevenson keeps saying to her, You must forget this. What's done is done. I am the law. I am the power. But clearly he's anxious because he keeps saying to her, we should stop and you should marry me, you know, because basically he wants to shut her up. And she says, I won't marry you and all this. And eventually, after a long delay, they take her home and they say to her parents who are horrified by the sight of her, or we've been in a car accident. Her parents are not fooled by this. And poor Madge, she lived for another month in terrible agony. And she died on the 14th of April. of infection from the bites, as well as kidney failure from the mercury poisoning. And by this point, her father had already gone to the police, and Stevenson was charged with rape, kidnapping, assault and battery, and second-degree murder. Murder because doctors testified in courts that the infected bites alone would have been enough to kill her.

So it didn't require the mercury poisoning as well. Stevenson was convinced that his connections in Indiana meant that he would get off. He couldn't believe it when in November 1925 he was found guilty and sentenced to life in prison and sent to the Michigan City Penitentiary. And he believed that the governor, his puppet, Governor Jackson, would pardon him. But no pardon came. And eventually Stevenson loses patience and he gives all of his confidential papers to the Indianapolis Times. And he says to them, well, I'll tell you all about the bribes that I've paid to

local officials. And the result was an earthquake in Indiana politics. Up to this point, very heavily Republican. The scandal took down the governor of Indiana, the mayor of Indianapolis, the local head of the Republican Party, loads of state officials, loads of mayors, all of this kind of thing. And so it is that by the end of the decade, the Democrats had won pretty much every city in the state. And a disaster, not just for the Republicans, but for the local clan. One. One, the strongest in the nation, but the Stevenson scandal, the death of this poor woman, Madge Oberholzer, totally destroys the clan's image. So in two years, its Indiana membership collapsed from hundreds and hundreds of thousands of people to just 4,000 people. And what happens

to David Stevenson? He was released, I think, in 1950, if I recall correctly. He then got out. He then was arrested again, convicted again for sexually assaulting a 16-year-old girl. I think. So in and out of prison and then died, I think, in the 60s and the woman he was living with, possibly his wife, I can't remember, said, oh, he seemed such a nice person. I can't believe all these stories about him, were true. But clearly, an incredibly dodgy and unpleasant man. Died in 1966, age 74. So what happened to the clan in Indiana was a symptom of a wider story. In the mid to late 1920s, the clan absolutely hemorrhaged members. It had risen so quickly and then suddenly declines and historians have spent, you know, huge quantities of ink trying to explain why this is.

There are obvious underlying reasons as well as the scandals. The clan's vision was much too negative. It had nothing positive to, you know, it was all about hatred of Catholics and stuff more than anything else. Apart from some Anodyne stuff about patriotism and family values, most of its appeal is based on negativity. Its vision of America is an outdated one. You know, America by the 1920s is clearly much. too diverse to be turned back into a white Protestant enclave. That's never going to happen. Also, I think most historians think it was a terrible mistake for the clan to enter mainstream politics. The clan's values of secrecy and exclusivity don't work in a democratic arena

where you have to make deals and compromises and you have to, you know, a pluralistic world in which you're appealing to bigotry and sectarianism. It doesn't work. There are some historians like Linda Gordon, who point out that actually maybe the clan stopped being so popular because it had actually won some of its battles. So the clan was always in favour of eugenics. And by the end of the 1920s, 30 American states had adopted eugenics laws with forced sterilization of criminals or people that were called defectives. And often the people who were singled out for this treatment tended to be very poor people or black people. So in other words, people that the clan didn't really like anyway. The clan also won the argument on immigration.

So in 1924, the Johnson Reed Act brought in immigration quotas that were based on an outdated census, the 1890 census. So basically an immigration regime that tried to turn about the clock because 70% of immigrants under this new legislation had to come from Britain, Germany or Ireland. In other words, let's try to recreate a 19th century white America. All immigration from Asia, for example, was banned under the new legislation, and southern and eastern European immigration was severely curtailed. And this regime lasted until the 50s. And partly as a result of this, anti-Catholicism as a force in American life basically began to dissipate. So, you know, the Pope's plot to attack the people of North Manchester on the northbound train.

By disguising himself as a corset salesman. Yeah, that never comes to fruition. You know, the clan has been saying for years, the Pope is poised to launch his attack. But the Pope never does. The uprising of armed Catholics never happens. And so people start, I think, over time to say to themselves, this is obviously demented. You know, this is never going to happen. and the clan just starts to sound a bit silly.

The other thing, of course, is the clan's violence. Things like the killings in Mare Rouge that we talked about, the reign of terror in Goose Creek, the murder of Madge Oberholzer, the vigilante violence in Williamson County. To most of the people who are there for the picnic and the barbecues, they're not up for all this. They're horrified by all this, actually.

And so once that becomes established in the public mind, people say, listen, I don't want to have anything to do with this organisation after all. So by the late 1920s, the numbers are in freefall. They've collapsed. And then the depression strikes. No one's got any money. You're not going to spend your money on collect tokens and ludicrous garb if you haven't got any money. The clan completely loses its mojo in the 30s. Hiram Evans, the dentist, is still running the clan. And he tries to rebrand it. He actually abandons the anti-Catholicism and says, we're an anti-communist group. We're anti-lab unions. That's what we're all about. But basically, no one's really.

interested. He ended up resigning in 1939 as Imperial Wizard. You know, they'd done him no good at all. The clan to splintered and splintered, and then it disbanded in a very banal way for tax reasons. Now, of course, that's not the end of the clan or a clan as a feature of American life. So there is a third clan. And this was founded in 1946. At the same place as the second clan, the Stone Mountain, Georgia. this is the one that still exists. So this basically is anti-communist and intensely racist. It's well known because it carries out some hideous atrocities. So bombing of black churches in Birmingham, Alabama

and killing civil rights workers in 1963 and 1964. Some very famous examples. But it doesn't have many members. It's purely reactionary and racist. insofar as it thrives at all, it's in counterpoint to the civil rights movement, which is obviously much bigger than the Klan is. It's never remotely a mass movement. It still exists today, but it has, I think, fewer than 3,000 members, according to researchers. Was it David Duke? See, David Duke, everyone's heard of David Duke, but he was never a significant. It's his exoticism, I think, that makes him interesting. He's the kind of character. that Louis Theroux depends on for his TV programs. Kind of sinister, but not so sinister, that he wouldn't look ridiculous if he comes on a TV show.

Exactly so. So today, I mean, they're much smaller than the oathkeepers or the proud boys. If you're a far right person, those are the groups you join in America, not the Ku Klux Klan. So that's the story of the second clan anyway. I think the second is by far the most interesting of the clans. I think the first is the most important because the first reverse is reconstruction or plays a part in reversing reconstruction.

Could I just ask Dominic? We've done series on the Nazis, which, you know, it features people dressing up in uniforms and parading around at night and, you know, torchlit processions and holding things for families and combining a kind of schmaltzy sentimentality with extreme violence against Jews and so on. To the extent that there's a fascist party in America,

would the clan be that fascist party, do you think? I think that's the interesting question. And I think that's what makes the 1920s clan the most interesting to me as a modern historian of the three. So the clan is not a European fascist party. It doesn't have a dynamic figurehead. It doesn't have a cult of the leader. They don't produce any leader of the caliber of the ruthlessness that European fascist parties do. The clan doesn't appeal to a kind of national irredentism.

You know, it doesn't say we have territories that have been taken from us by special. force. We must reassert ourselves internationally. Quite the reverse. The clan is quite isolationist. The clan is much less forward-looking, I think, than, for example, Italian fascism, more backward-looking. And the clan, of course, has no interest in war. They're just like riding around beating people up. Yes, they're like vigilante violence, but invading people fighting wars is not really part of their repertoire. But you're dead right, there are some huge similarities. So, victimhood, the family, hatred of the outsider, paramilitary violence, costumes, parades, rituals, torchlit processions, aeroplanes. Yeah, there are definite similarities. And for me,

I would say, there never has been a mass fascist movement in the United States. But if you want to imagine what one might have looked like, I think it would look not unlike the 1920s clan. Not least because actually the people, just think about it, demographically, the people who join the 1920s clan, and not dissimilar from the people who joined the National Socialist movement in 1920s, 1930s, Germany, Protestant, small businessmen, salesmen, you know, people who feel threatened by, they don't like, they're not members of labor unions, they're not very rich, they're not very poor, they feel squeezed, they feel anxious about change, you know, they like dressing up. Do you think the fondness for kind of galloping around on horses is a legacy of the World War?

the sense of people on horses going out there and imposing law and order, whether there is no law and order, and that that's a hangover because the Wild West is being romanticised in films at the same time as the Ku Klux Klan are. And it just becomes part of American mythology. Yeah, I think American mythology absolutely has a cult of the vigilante. Well, kind of Batman. Yeah, look at Batman. The man who rides into town to, because the useless authorities can't do it to clean up the town. And actually, you know, the reason it's so successful in, let's say, Indiana, is partly because Indiana had always had this tradition of vigilantes.

You know, it was not that long since Indiana had been on the frontier, a generation, a couple of generations. So completely, yeah, that is not un-American. It is very American. And that's why, yeah, exactly as you say, that's why Batman's stories of masked vigilantes are so popular. You know, there's a comic book. I don't think you are a massive fan of comic books by Alan Moore called Watchmen in the 19th. Yeah, and they made it into a film. So there was then a TV series, which I have to say was brilliant, which departed from the comic book, but was all about the clan and superheroes and vigilantes.

And it basically played with the similarities between superheroes dressing up in masks and going out to enforce order and racist paramilitary is doing the same. And in fact, the Tulsa massacre of 1921 played a big. part in that series. So yeah, I really recommend it actually. It didn't get the attention that should have done, but it's a brilliant, brilliant series. But anyway, that's enough of the clan, Tom, because I think we should do something totally different next time, because that's the beauty of the rest of history. So tell us what you have lined up for next week. So we will be going to medieval Japan to explore the emergence of the samurai. And you say completely different, But of course, the samurai are, they're people who like galloping around indulging in acts of violence.

And they're also incredibly mythologised. So this is a series that will explore how the shogunate emerges and replaces the traditional imperial order. But it is also a story that will feature flying heads and the ghosts of drowned samurai turning into crabs. So that will be on its way next week. And of course, if you are a member of the Rested History Club, then you will be able to get all four episodes of the samurai on Monday. And to join them, you just go to the restitisthistory.com and sign up there. And also, of course, we've got our sensational newsletter. And you can access that by replying to the email that features in the program notes to this series.

Dominic, thanks so much for an absolutely sweeping account of an organisation. very sinister, very dark. Thank you. Thanks everyone for listening. Bye-bye. Bye-bye.