The Rest Is History - The Beatles: The Band that Changed the World, with Conan O’Brien (Part 1)

Episode Date: December 3, 2025

How did four Liverpool teenagers become the most influential band on earth? What made their music and charisma irresistible to a generation? And, how did their ambition and timing spark a cultural revolution that still resonates today? In the first of two special episodes, Tom is joined by Conan O’Brien to explore the Beatles’ meteoric rise: the personalities, the breakthroughs, and the explosive cultural impact that turned a local act into the defining band of the 20th century. The Beatles’ nine-part “Anthology” documentary series has been restored and is now available to watch on Disney+. Thank you to Apple Corps and Disney for the opportunity to use archive from the Anthology in these special Beatles episodes. _______ Hive. Know your power. Visit https://hivehome.com to find out more. _______ Get our exclusive NordVPN deal here ➼ https://nordvpn.com/restishistory It's risk-free with Nord's 30-day money-back guarantee ✅ _______ Twitter: @TheRestHistory @holland_tom @dcsandbrook Video Editor: Jack Meek / Harry Swan Social Producer: Harry Balden Assistant Producer: Aaliyah Akude Producer: Tabby Syrett Senior Producer: Theo Young-Smith Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

If you want more from the show, join The Rest Is History Club. And with Christmas coming, you can also gift a whole year of access to the history lover in your life. Just head to the rest is history.com and click Gifts. At Desjardin Insurance, we put the care in taking care of business. Your business, to be exact. Our agents take the time to understand your company, so you get the right coverage at the right price. Whether you rent out your building, represent a condo corporation, or own a cleaning company, We make insurance easy to understand

so you can focus on the big stuff, like your small business. Get insurance that's really big on care. Find an agent today at Dejardin.com slash business coverage. At Capital One, we're more than just a credit card company. We're people just like you who believe in the power of yes.

Yes to new opportunities. Yes to second chances. Yes to a fresh start. That's why we've helped over four million Canadians get access to a credit card because at Capital One, we say yes, so you don't have to hear another no. What will you do with your yes?

Get the yes you've been waiting for at Capital One.ca slash yes. Terms and conditions apply. This Giving Tuesday, Cam H is counting on your support. Together, we can forge a better path for mental health by creating a future where Canadians can get the health they need when they need it, no matter who or where they are. From November 25th to December 2nd,

your donation will be doubled. That means every dollar goes twice as far to help build a future where no one's seeking help is left behind. Donate today at camh.ca.ca slash giving Tuesday. This episode is sponsored by Hive. Britain revolutionized the future with the might of industrial power. But now you can transform your own energy future and take control with the power of Hive. Hive makes the most of the sun, with solar panels turning sunlight into greener electricity and enabling you to sell excess back to the grid. And Hive's thermostats make it possible for you to heat your home without lifting anything more than a thumb and an impressed brow. Their heat pumps draw warmth from the air and they keep it exactly where you want it. No smoke,

no waste. Hive's EV charger lets your car charge quietly overnight, recharging while you do too. Hive brings it all together, heating, charging and solar, managed from one simple app in a quiet revolution. In the long history of power, Hive helps you finally know yours. Head to hivehome.com to find out more, subject to survey and suitability.

Hive app compatible with selected technology. Paid for a surplus requires SEG tariff. Hello everyone and welcome to Abbey Road Studios for a Rest is History Beatles special. Now I am afraid that Dominic isn't here because as regular listeners will know, he disgraces himself by not liking John Lennon and also being fed up with talking about the Beatles and we were recently the pair of us on Conan O'Brien's podcast and Conan asked us were we Beatles or Stones I of course said Beatles Dominic said stones and then said I am never going to talk about the Beatles again so when I got the opportunity to do a Beatles podcast

here in Abbey Road I thought well who can I get to replace Dominic, who can be Denny Lane to my Paul McCartney. And so I thought, well, Conan O'Brien and Conan, here you are, Ian Abbey Road. I just flew 35,000 miles to be called Denny Lane to your Paul McCartney. And I accept it. It's a high honor. Thank you so much for joining us. Because when we met in L.A., you were talking about how you two are a massive Beatles fan.

But more than that, you talked about how you've actually met. George and Paul and Ringo. Yeah, yeah, I was lucky enough to meet three of the four Beatles. John died when I was in high school, but I was a Beatles fan in the 70s to the exclusion of music that was coming out at the time. I was stubbornly just listening to Beatles records throughout the 70s. But later on, once I had a TV show and became known, I was lucky to meet three of them, which was really special.

I met George when I was a writer at Saturday Night Live, and he was meeting with Lorne Michaels, who's a producer. They had gone out for drinks. And then there's a writer's room at Saturday Night Live, and George came in. I'll never forget. He apologized initially because he had been drinking some quantity of liquor. So he said, I'm sorry, I'm pissed as a newt. And he was kind of bobbing from shoe to shoe.

asked why we were all staring at him, me being a Beatles geek, I had in my office the same make model year country gentleman that George played in the 64 tour. And I thought about going and getting it and showing it to him, but I thought, no, he's not in a condition to appreciate that. He'll probably hit me with it. And then George sat down at a piano and started to play, which was lovely. And what was he playing? He was just playing around chords. He was wasn't playing a song. Yeah, so not My Guitar Gently Weeps. No, it wasn't what you think.

Hollywood would make it a full rendition of While My Guitar Gently Weeps. It was not. So you were listening to a Beatle play the piano. I was listening to a Beatle play the piano. And I've also been lucky enough to be in a room where Paul was playing guitar. And it was just a guitar that was in the room. So he's left-handed. He was just playing it upside down.

and backwards and I said how do you do that what did you learn to do that and he said to me back in the day when we were starting out I had to because the only other way to play it would be to retune John's guitar and he would have crippled me I can't believe that you've you've you've had these experiences because the closest that I have come to meeting Beatles was via my wife Sadie when she was three was in a queue with her parents for a visa to America. And Paul was standing behind her and picked her up. I was in that queue as well.

So I've got you beat at every turn. Oh, God. So you're a huge Beatles fan. Yeah. As am I. But there are, of course, skeptics out there. Dominic being one of them. Yes.

So I guess the question, we're a history podcast rather than a music podcast. So we need to make the case that the Beatles are historically significant. Yes. Is that a case you think that can be made? Easily. the Beatles are a complete break with what happened before they are singer-songwriters they wrote their own music there are so many ways that they depart so many groups at the time you know there's the lead and then there's the rest of the group it's you know dion and the belmont's there was a lot of pressure for them to have a leader i think briefly they were johnny and the moon dogs very briefly but they always knew no it's It's, we're a group. So it's kind of synergy of it.

Yeah. And that was unusual at the time. So they're a break with pretty much everything that comes before them. And they're as relevant today as they were in 1964. Because obviously there have been acts that have been massive in their own time and then slightly have started to fade. But I guess you could say that the Beatles have endured long enough and remain massive enough. Yeah.

That you can say that people will probably be listening to them in decades times, maybe in centuries time. Yeah. There's a great clip. I think it's in the anthology where they're talking to a young guy, basically a teenager, a kid at Shea Stadium. And the interviewer's trying to run them down a little bit. And this kid says, I love them. Yeah. And he just says they're incredible musicians.

And he more or less makes the kids. case there in 1965 or six that we're going to be listening to their music forever. They are, I think, the best-selling musical act of all time. Every statistic that they generate is off the scale. I guess the case I would make and why I think they're historically significant is because in a way, they are lightning rods for so much that makes the 60s a revolutionary decade. And I think that in all kinds of ways in the time. 21st century, we're living in the aftermath of what happened in the 60s, rather like people

in the 16th century were living in the aftermath of what had happened in the 1520s. I think the transformation, the cultural, the ethical transformation is on that scale. And the Beatles are both kind of symbols of it, but they're also vectors of it. Yeah. I mean, the Beatles themselves knew that they weren't creating all this change. Sometimes they were just the avatar. They could represent the change. And I think they were pretty sane. I mean, another group with that kind of fame would have said, we did all this.

We changed humankind forever. They knew that, of course, that wasn't the case, but they were the perfect representation of what was happening. And they did drive and give credence to a lot of amazing changes that were happening. And I think also, I mean, just to begin, they do have their roots in kind of quite... the decades before they were born, which would include the war years, but going back into the 30s and even back into the 20s.

So John was a big fan of Just William. I don't know, the thing in America, probably not, but it's kind of stories of this kind of raggedy schoolboy, and he has a gang of outlaws, and John was obsessed by it. And Paul's dad, you know, he kind of played all kinds of old traditional English music. And the influence of that on the Beatles tracks is kind of, of really evident. And also, I think it's interesting that they meet, John and Paul meet at a church fate. Neither of them were in any way religious. But it's a reminder that the world of England in the 50s is still one where, you know, you want to be a skiffle band. You still have to go and do it at a church fate because there isn't really anywhere else to have that kind of fun. That's the only gig. That's the only gig in town, really. Yeah. So, no, they come from a friend of mine said,

once Jimmy Vivino, my band leader, said, the Beatles single-handedly brought us from black and white to color, which I thought was an interesting way to look at it, which is they come from this very old tradition. Yeah. And they're well-schooled in English Music Hall, big band. Yeah, swing and all that. They have big ears.

They're listening and hearing everything and soaking it all up. and later on it all comes out in the music. But obviously one of the things that they are listening to and are able to listen to perhaps in a way that lots of people elsewhere in England can't is the sounds of America because Liverpool is a port that is open to the Atlantic and ships that's still transport records are being brought over in ships and so they come to the port and the Beatles can access them.

Yeah, they can get Elvis, Gene Vincent, Buddy Holly. And black music. Yeah. Which is all, you know, they love all that. Yes. So when John and Paul meet at this church fate. The Walton Fet.

The Walton Fate. John is singing a D-WOP song, Come Go With Me. Yeah. And he doesn't know the lyrics. And Paul doesn't know the lyrics either, but he knows the lyrics well enough to know that John can't remember them. Yeah. But the fact that they both know the lyrics,

song is like a kind of masonic handshake between them. It's a sign that they have access to a kind of secret information. They are familiar with American music. And so the kind of the potential, the excitement, the drama of what is happening in America, you know, you said that the Beatles introduced color. But I think for the future Beatles, 1950s England is a monochrome country. Yes. And America is vibrant technicolor. Well, also, the war has been a very different experience. I don't need to tell you for people living in England. They've been bombed. They've seen their cities destroyed.

They've paid a terrible price. They're still rationing. There's still war rationing. So they're growing up in a world where people are coming out of a days. And there's been a lot of privation. There's been a lot of difficulty. I also got into the Beatles in the 70s. And when I look back at the 60s, the 60s seemed an impossible distance from the Second World War.

But now you think, I mean, it's only 20 years. 20 years. I mean, it's so close. And when the Beatles are growing up, they are in a city that is cratered with kind of bomb damage. And as you say, you know, the Beatles are born in the war years. John is born during the Blitz. During a blitz. On Liverpool.

So George joins John and Paul. And they get joined by Stu Sondland. So Paul's the one who knows George, doesn't he? Introduces him and he plays raunchy on the top of a double-decker bus. Yeah, and that's enough. That's enough. You're in. Yeah.

And then John's art school friend, Stu Sutcliffe, wins a prize for his art and spends it on a guitar. Well, John bullies him into, I don't know what he was, 80 pounds or 100 pounds or something. He bullies him into buying a bass, which Stu never really learns to play. But he's a cool-looking guy. He is. And I think that's an early sign that, yes, the music's important, but who we are, what we represent. And Stu is an artist. And Paul doesn't love this.

He really doesn't like Stu coming in because he can't play. And I think he's very close to John, which may have been a problem for Paul. Yes. And also there's Pete Best, a top hairdresser in later life. But at the time, the drummer. And so they all go off to Hamburg. And Hamburg equally, I mean, maybe even more than Liverpool, is obviously a city marked by the experience of the Second World War.

The British had flattened it. And of course, there were people there who had lived through the Nazi period. And it's always struck me that one of the things that is interesting about Hamburg in the Nazi period is that it's kind of notorious among the Nazi leadership for the enthusiasm of the young people who live there for American and English, jazz and swing. And it's a kind of rebellion against the ideals of the Hitler youth and all of that.

And they grow their hair and they listen to jazz and they're particularly into black music. And this is a kind of, obviously, I mean, it's the anathema to everything that Nazism represents. And when the Beatles meet Astrid Kiersha and Klaus Foreman, who are kind of middle class intellectual Germans who are ashamed of the Nazi legacy and therefore are heirs to that tradition of seeing British and American music

as something that is expressive of freedom and of opposition to Nazism. That's kind of one of the reasons why they all end up getting on so well. Well, they're also, they're bohemians. They're artists and outsiders looking in, and I think that's very attractive to John and Paul, especially, and George. They really like these people. They become good friends, and they're very much influenced by them. John calls them exes, doesn't he? Existentialists, and kind of France is the great influence.

And in due course, it's Astridisha who will give the Beatles their kind of signature mop-top carts. which is influenced by these kind of European bohemian ideals. But just to reiterate, I mean, this is ultimately a kind of reaction against what the Nazis had represented and that kind of tradition. So there is a case for saying that the mop top is a kind of anti-Nazi hair cut. Do you think that's maybe going too far? I think you've pushed it way too far. Now I'm listening to all the early Beatles hits as anti-Hitler anthems.

I do agree with you that there is. clearly and John said this Hamburg made them going to Hamburg made them because as Malcolm Gladwell pointed out they had to do their 100,000 hours and a billion. It always changes.

I need a billion hours myself but it changes them the volume of work they have to do is incredible. They also need to entertain those crowds and they get very good at that. They get very good at winning getting people from peeking in the door

to coming in to buying drinks. They do it... Oh, Mach Shao. Yeah, Mach Shao. They do it with the strength of their personalities and with their music, and they get honed into a diamond. And they're absolutely off their faces on amphetamins, aren't they?

Prelleys. Yeah. Yeah. They're on these pills that enable them to play and play and play and play. They're living in, I think they're living in, I think they share a wall with a theater. So they're living in conditions that aren't safe. Isn't that where George is his virginity? And all the Beatles are kind of on bunks watching him or whatever.

I mean, it's all very quite squalid, but kind of quite, but properly rock and roll. at a time when in America and England still more so, the music is kind of stopping being quite so rock and roll. Yeah, I mean, there's this period, you know, I think Chuck Berry violates the man act and has to be, I think he goes to jail or is, it's a scandal. Jerry Lee Lewis has his scandal. He definitely has a scandal.

Buddy Holly dies. A big bopper. The big bopper and Ritchie Valens. And Elvis gets drafted, of course. Elvis gets drafted. Which the Beatles very narrowly avoid because National Service, which is a thing here in England in the 50s, and it gets stopped just before they would have become eligible for it.

And we would all agree that the Beatles would not have done well in national service. You would not have been good. Well, because they, it's kind of interesting that when they're driving out to Ambo for the first time, they go past Arnhem, which is a bridge too far, kind of disastrous, British lose, lots of people there. And the story is that John refuses to get out of the van and go and look at the graves, and already perhaps a sense there that war in its totality is something to be rejected. And that, of course, will become a massive theme for John's music and ideals later in life. But I mean, it might be there right from the beginning. Although apparently when he's

on the stage in Hamburg, he's always shouting out in English, you know, crouts, we beat you in the war kind of stuff. So as always with the Beatles, it's never, there's always a kind of creative tension. Yeah, John, even then is walking that line between he's goading thugs in a Hamburg crowd to attack him and then relying on security to handle it or a bouncer or someone, walking that line between I dare you to hit me and

I think quite a few of the bouncers only kind of had one arm or one leg or whatever because they were

kind of maimed in the war so yeah quite a I mean quite a crucible I guess and explains a lot

about the kind of band that the Beatles in due course became you know the comeback from Hamburg they go

back to Hamburg then they come back to Liverpool again and by this point so 1961 1962

they're starting to a stand themselves as the biggest name in Liverpool. When they come back to Liverpool, there are people who think that they're a German band because they hear that they've come from Hamburg. So, and they're so polished. I mean, they're a completely different act. I think on the scene in Liverpool, there were bands that didn't take them seriously.

Then they come back from Hamburg and they've had this education and they've been transmuted. They call their leather. And they're down in the cavern and the ceiling is dripping sweat from excited girls who are there in their lunch hour. And it's very fetid and exciting and rock and roll. And it is on the 9th of November 1961 that a key figure in the story of the Beatles finds his way down the steps into the cavern. And that, of course, is Brian Epstein. Yeah. You know, when the colonel finds Elvis, the colonel is very well established as a guy who could take over Elvis's contract. It should be pointed out that Brian Epstein is not that figure. He's working at, I believe, his family's record store, record shop.

He's never managed anybody. No. And he sees this group that really just fascinates him. and particularly John because Brian is gay and he definitely I think has a thing for John doesn't he? Yeah but he kind of

immediately picks up on the fact that this band is amazing and decides that he is going to try and get them a record contract and although he's never managed anyone he does kind of have links with the music industry and he's middle class as opposed to the Beatles

so working class and in England in the early 60s that is massively important and it means that he can make contact with other middle class people among whom is a producer here in Abbey Road called George Martin. And so famously, Brian Epstein hawks the Beatles around all kinds of record companies and they turn him down. Decker famously, you know, guitar groups are on their way out. But George Martin basically is the last port of calls, parlophone at EMI and he says yeah okay I'll give them a go but it's um George Martin is still not entirely convinced is he no I mean not one point I would make I think should be

made is that in addition to all of their amazing qualities the Beatles have uh insane luck they have incredible luck because many people might have approached them and said I think I could represent you. Brian Epstein is unusual. He's someone who really loves them for them. He's someone who really respects them as artists, and he wants to take care of them. Now, remember, this is the music business.

That doesn't happen. Then who does he take them to? Who do they hook up with George Martin? The people they meet early on are the essential people, and it's some kind of hobbit tale where they meet the exact right person at the exact right time. It's all hotting up, and I don't think I can take the attention right now. I need a bit of a breather.

So let's have a quick break. When you're flying Emirates business class, sipping your favorite cocktail at our onboard lounge, you'll see that your vacation isn't really over until your flight is over. Fly, Emirates, fly better. Get no frills delivered. Shop the same in-store prices online and enjoy unlimited delivery with PC Express Pass. Get your first year for $2.50 a month.

Learn more at pceexpress.ca. Ella McKay, coming to theaters December 12th. Your father's here. Why? A heartwarming new comedy from James L. Brooks. I'm a different person. I have never in my life out this way about any other woman. Jesus! I wasn't counting your mother! It's a perfect holiday comedy about an imperfect family.

You can use a screen. Starring Emma Mackey, Jamie Lee Curtis, Camel Nanjani, Iowa Debrie, with Albert Brooks and Woody Harrelson. You should do that every afternoon. Ella McKay. Hello, welcome back to The Rest of History. I am with Conan O'Brien, and we are talking Beatles. So George Martin hadn't really been a music producer. He'd been a producer of comedy shows.

The Goon Show. The Goon Show. And the Beatles really appreciate that, but it also means that George Martin can appreciate their zany mop-top humour. So George Harrison famously saying he didn't like George Martin's tie. And George Martin not being unduly offended by that. And so he decides actually that the Beatles have got something, that they've got personality as well as musical ability.

But there is one member of the Beatles. he doesn't rate. And Stu Sutton, by this point, has died of a brain hemorrhage. But Pete Bess is still on the scene. And George Martin says to Brian, he's got to go. And so the final piece in the jigsaw puzzle now slots into place, namely Ringo. Yeah, yeah. Who you've also met.

And you said that you gave him a hug once and his body is now made of teak. Yes. I've met Ringo a number of times. And one time I gave him a hug, and I thought he's carved out of a very dense tropical wood. This man works out, I think obsessively, he just hit his 85th birthday, and I think he could take both of us in a fight. He's an incredible shape. Which is amazing because Ringo was born in absolutely the poorest part, the most bomb damaged part of Liverpool, and grew up repeatedly being ill. always in hospital, kind of missed out on school and all kinds of things.

But by the time the Beatles approach him, has established himself as the best drummer in Liverpool. And again, it's the kind of, it's the humor and the personality. Ringo completely gels with them. And George Martin has actually brought a session drummer in for their, to record their first single. And his name is Andy White. Andy White, yes.

What's interesting is that people have always wondered, or theorize that Pete Best is too good-looking and maybe Paul is jealous and they edge him out. But it's been pretty much conclusively proved that he was not a good timekeeper. He couldn't really keep time. And Ringo could play all these different beats, these Latin beats that later on show up in so many Beatles records. So he was the right guy at the right time.

And so how would you rate Ringo as a drummer? Oh, I think he's spectacular. And a lot of top drummers now give it up to Ringo. His feel, he's minimal. And there's a great thing you can see on YouTube, which is if Keith Moon had been the Beatles drummer, if John Bonham had been the Beatles drummer. And you listen to them and you're like,

yeah, that wouldn't be the same. It wouldn't work. So is he Gene Krupa or Buddy Rich? No, he's not. he's the best possible drummer for the Beatles yeah and actually so there's um the the the footage that you can see in the background is from a new version of the anthology documentary series um out on disney and in these episodes there's amazing footage of wringo drumming you can completely see what he is giving the Beatles so the as i say the final piece in the jigsaw puzzle is there yeah

and so their first single love me do comes out in Britain, which is 17. Brian's shop has bought in box loads of it, craze of the stuff, flogged it across Liverpool. But it's still not obvious that they are going to completely change. everything. And it's when they then turn up to record their first album, Please Please Me. Last night I said these were to my girl. I know you never even try, girl. Come on, come on, come on, please, please, please, we will.

George Martin famously says, gentlemen, you just made your first number one. The sense that this is something special. And one of the key things is that they're not just recording covers. So we should probably just talk about that. Because you said earlier, this is something that marks them out as distinctive. Yeah.

But it is really unusual, isn't it? It's revolutionary. It's unheard of. So what John and Paul were always interested, in almost the brill-building tradition of being songwriters. And Paul used to think about being a songwriter, even if it meant he wasn't the one performing the song. They just thought about songwriting.

They were working on it for a long time. They're writing things, but not of the quality that they'd later have. But then this moment comes when they've done Love Me Do, It's so-so. It's so-so. You listen to it now and you think, I don't know what all the excitement was. And the truth is, it was number 17. Yeah.

Brian probably helped them, boost them up the charts by buying records himself. So they really need to make it. John has a song that's in the vein of, he's thinking of a Roy Orbison song. And it's written, it's a very slow kind of Roy Orbison ballad. Come on, come on, come on. Come on. Come on. Come on.

Please, please. Oh, yeah. My guy please you. And they're working on it. It's not coming together. And then they decide, let's pick up the tempo. And they have it. And that's their first number one.

The Stones, Dominic's not here, but I wish I could say this to his face. The Stones are doing covers down in London. They hear that there's this group up in Liverpool that's making records, which the stones are not doing, and they're writing them themselves, and they're flabbergasted, and I think, skeptical. And inspired in the long run. In the long run. Yeah, it took them a while, Dominic, it took them a while.

But they don't do badly either. No, they do just fine. But the quickening up the pace, the harmonies, the shaking of the hair, the twisting and the shouting, when the album goes up, out and then she loves you and a succession of singles and the live performances and girls start screaming yeah and they start kind of pushing at cordons of policemen and the Beatles have mentioned they like jelly beans and so they start hurling jelly beans yeah george had said an interview i like these uh whatever they're called jelly beans and um from then on he's pelted with them and so quite dangerous because they, you know, you could take out an eye or two.

Yeah. He should have mentioned, George should have mentioned a softer treat. Maybe a marshmallow. Jelly babies, perhaps. Yeah. But this is a kind of explosion of public teenage female joy of a kind that no one has ever seen before. And I guess it's explained in part by the charisma and the music of the Beatles. But it's also explained by.

by, you know, to put it in Marxist terms, the fact that for the first time teenage girls have spending money and leisure time. Yeah. And so you see there again, you talked about how lucky the Beatles are, that they are riding this crest of this wave of growing material prosperity that is kind of giving birth to the idea of the teenager as a consumer. Yeah. So another way in which they get incredibly lucky, the timing is spectacular because, as you say, if this had been 10 years earlier, I don't think this maybe could have happened, but they're at the right time, perfect time where a whole group of teenagers can express

a different opinion than their parents, which teenagers want to do, they want to make something theirs, and here are these four perfect people with great music, and they can elect to spend their money on these records, and they can have their favorite beetle, and it starts to fuel this mania. And do you think the fact that all the bands and the singers that we've talked about up till now who influenced the Beatles have been male, but actually the Beatles are really, really into female groups as well? Yes. Do you think that's kind of contributory factor to their popularity with specifically female audience? In his book, Ian Leslie wrote this fantastic book that I absolutely love. I think it's the best Beatles book that's been written in quite a while.

So John and Paul, isn't it? John and Paul. And in it, he, he points out something I hadn't really thought of, which is a lot of early Beatles music is influenced by doo-wop groups. If someone just told me that without me thinking about it and say, well, that's stupid. But no, it's not. It's true. They are performing a lot of stuff by male doo-wop groups and also female groups. And I think they are just going for what's the best music. And they are also very interested in getting the vocals right. So they play their own instruments, but I think their secret weapon is their vocal ability. Yeah, the harmonies.

The harmonies and Everly Brothers, I think were a huge influence on them. But yes, they will play, I mean, Ringo sings boys and doesn't, they don't. Yes, so the Sherell's number. They don't change. It would be so easy to say girls. It would be so easy to change it, and they don't. And it's a little strange, but it's fantastic. And so, yes, there is, they're not overly concerned.

with gender. They're not overly concerned with, you know, no, no, we've got to stick to this image or that image. They're just going where the best music is. Now, I know what Dominic would say about the secret of their popularity is also the fact that they are just edgy enough. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So they say she loves you, yeah, yeah, yeah. So they say, she loves you, yeah, yeah, yeah, rather than as Paul's father. thought they should have sung. She loves you. Yes, yes, yes. Yes. But they're not going too far. So the kind of the prelly popping and the, you know, all the kind of Hamburg stuff is

being kind of slightly pushed to one side. And Brian has put them in suits by this point. And in the long run, it's the stones who will play the part of the kind of the bad boys. Yeah. The Beatles are just edgy enough, but no more so. Right. And they, you know, they famously, they play at the raw variety. show, and John has his witty quip.

For our last number, I'd like to ask your help. The people in the cheaper seats clap your hands. And the rest of you, if you just rattle your jewelry. Which Noel Coward was hated that. I don't know why I remember that, but Noel Coward thought that was atrocious. Did he? And this brings up, that performance brings up something really interesting, which is the Beatles represent this new thing which is class is irrelevant and they are playing in

front of the queen in a royal performance and John makes this joke that is very much about class and Noel Coward I think got upset people thought well this is how could he I mean some people were really taken aback by that but they are four working class guys who don't change their accents. They don't adopt James Mason accents when they make it big. They have thick Liverpoolian accents and they never try to change it. They don't work on their addiction or anything. Yes, they wear the suits because they are ambitious. They're extremely ambitious and they will do what it takes to get to the top. So, I mean, it's great to be number one in Britain to be going around all these kind of market towns and selling out concerts and

headlining and having repeated number ones and all kinds of things. But they have been massively influenced by American music and for people in Britain to break it in America is the ultimate dream. And British artists have not succeeded in making it in America at all. And Brian is kind of trying to boost their career in America, but it's not really working. And America is distracted, apart from anything else, by, you know, America has its trauma because when the Beatles' second album with the Beatles comes out in Britain, it's the same day that Kennedy is shot in Dallas. And it is often said that that plunges America into a state of kind of mourning and bereavement that leaves them kind of wanting almost to be cheered up. Do you think

there's anything in that? Yeah, again, I mean, it's heresy to use the word luck with an assassination and a day that that's awful. But I will say, you know, I do these history experiments in my head sometimes. What if the Beatles had been booked November 30th on the Ed Sullivan show? What if they had been booked in December? It's too soon. So they end up going to the U.S. in February.

In February, by which point I want to hold. your hand is number one. And it's crucial that they go there with that single already number one. So that they're not going as, you know, supplicants, they're going as stars. This is one of those moments where Paul has subsequently said, we knew to wait until we had number one hits in the U.S. to go over. And if you look into it, I don't think it holds up. I think that Ed Sullivan had been flying in Europe. His plane has a stopover, I think, in, I don't know if he's in Sweden or he's someplace. And he sees screaming fans. And he says, what's that all about? And he says, it's this group from England, the Beatles. These youngsters from Liverpool, who call themselves the Beatles. Yeah. And so the booking is made before the Beatles have hit number one in America.

Again, the timing is perfect. But again, it's not just luck, but luck plays a big part in it. So they landed at JFK and there's huge press attention and there are crowds of screaming girls. Which surprises them. It does. And it obviously surprises the US media as well. There's kind of incredible footage in the anthology documentary of them arriving outside the hotel with girls just hurling themselves at the window. And it's like they're in a zombie film.

And it's like the kind of zombie plague has crossed the Atlantic from Britain and now it's arrived in New York. And the screaming and the hysteria becomes part of the story, doesn't it? And it is present when it is present. the Beatles appear on the Ed Sullivan show. Yeah. And that show, I think, is still the second most viewed program in U.S. history. Yeah, I think some reality show has the number one spot, I believe, someone eating cockroaches. About two years ago, Paul McCartney released pictures that he took because all of them had cameras.

They had given cameras. So Paul called it the eyes of the storm because it's all of them. but he took pictures constantly and I had a chance to interview him about it and he was talking about being in the center of all that and how surprised they were yeah and he was just taking all these photos of a lot of them are just people losing their minds and staring at them and you know I think it was George who later said we just became an excuse for people to lose their minds yeah People wanted to lose their minds. They needed some kind of fuse or trigger, and this group shows up, and yes, the music's great, and yes, they have these incredible personalities, but it's something completely new when everyone says it is time to go insane.

Yeah, and so that's something that the Beatles are introducing to America, but obviously for the Beatles as well, going to America is a kind of pilgrimage, because this is where the music that they have most loved and have been most inspired comes from. from. And we've said they're particularly influenced by black American music. And so one of the issues that comes up in in 1964, when they're going on tour around the US, is the question of will they play in segregated stadiums? Because that is still very much a thing. Civil rights movement is still ongoing. And the Beatles are absolutely forthright about this. They will not play. And they managed to force an old stadium here or there to change the ticketing. Other ones, they just say, well, we're not going to play there. So what kind of impact do you think that has?

I think it's massive. I mean, first of all, it shows that they are not going to bend the knee. They are principled. There are things that they think are important. They care about. There's the fact that they will not play in front of segregated audiences. And then almost maybe more important in their press conferences where people hang on every word when asked what groups do they like. they list all these black groups and they talk about Smokey Robinson and the Miracles and they talk

about the Supremes and they mention so many black musicians and acts and it's not calculated that's just what they love that's what they love but they're it certainly I think is a beautiful moment when they when they're in New York and the you know the first days of their arrival they get given the chance to kind of DJ on various radio stations, don't they? And they're just endlessly playing black female groups. Yeah. Because that's what they love. That's that kind of great influence.

And so that sense of the fact that they're not just musicians, but that what they say might matter. I mean, that lasts through 1964 and it lasts through 1965. And there is an assumption that the Beatles will always give interesting copy, but that may be the potential for them to say something that might ultimately turn out to be inflammatory. Yes. There's a constant expectation from the minute the Beatles arrive on the scene, and it's going so well, and it keeps getting bigger and bigger and bigger success, success, success, smash hit, smash

smash hit, smash hit, when is the bubble going to burst? And so the pump is primed for something to go wrong. So in March 1966, there's a journalist called Boring Cleave, who has known the Beatles very well, known them for about three years, has kind of friends with them. She does, she interviews each one of the Beatles, and it runs in the press as in what it's like to, you know, to be a beetle. Yeah. And one of the interviews is with John, and he has been reading quite a lot about religion, and he gives Maureen some good copy.

So he says, Christianity will go, it will vanish and shrink. I needn't argue about that. I'm right, and I'll be proved right. We're more popular than Jesus now. And so this runs in the British press, and nobody in Britain could care less about it. Yeah. And these articles then get, they get sold on to publication in America and they appear and still nobody really pays any attention to it. But then there are people in the Bible Belt in America who are not keen on the Beatles, sees the Beatles long hair as satanic.

Some of them aren't keen on the whole anti-segregation stage. And when some of these people read what John has said, they're less than enthused, don't they? They're less than enthused. It's funny because we're in 1966, but it's kind of a, before the internet, it's an internet moment. Because today, John would have said that on Wednesday at 3 o'clock in the afternoon, and they'd be outrage. Yeah. On Thursday, this is an interview he does with Maureen Cleve. it takes a while.

It actually takes quite a while for it to finally surface and find the right person to hate it. And then it becomes this explosion, this huge controversy. And the article comes out in England and then makes its way across to the states. It takes some time,

but then it starts to pick up traction. and the Beatles are coming back to America for a tour. And by the time they're ready to leave Britain to fly to New York, all hell is breaking loose. And the huge question for listeners is, will this finish the Beatles off? Is this the end of the Beatles? And there's literally only one way to find out. and that is to watch our second episode where we will kind of be moving

from the red album to the blue album. Okay, well, you just gave it away. Kind of I did, but I kind of think. People probably know that... This is a bit of a spoiler, but it did end the Beatles and their career ended in 66, and they all went into real estate. So find out how the Beatles got on

as real estate developers in New York, or alternatively, we'll stick to the timeline of what actually happened. And Tom, I'm just curious. Is there any way that fervent listeners like myself can have access to this episode without waiting? Well, Conan, it will blow you away. But there is. What do you mean?

You can go to the rest is history.com and you can sign up there and you can get immediate access to it and a host, a host of other benefits. It is unbelievable value. This is incredible. It's so exciting. And I'm so glad to share it with you and to share it with you, the listener. We will be back. Thanks so much for watching us or listening, depending whether you're watching or listening to us. Bye-bye.

Goodbye. Throughout time, celebration has meant giving. So the Romans at Saturnalia handed out all kinds of gifts. The three magi handed out gold, frankincense and myrrh, and the Victorians absolutely loved wrapping things up in paper and then tying it up in string. Some of those are lovely gestures, but I wonder if they're a little bit too extravagant

for the typical Christmas morning. So this year, here's my suggestion to our listeners and our viewers, why not give something a little bit more enlightened? Why not give the gift of the rest is history? Club Membership. It's the discerning choice for anybody who prefers a Hannibal to a hamper. It's ad-free listening. You get a weekly bonus episode. You get early access to live shows and you get exclusive deep dive series. Also, on top of that, this year's special gift edition of Restis History Club membership comes with a sensational exclusive t-shirt. It will make you the envy of all your neighbours and all the cool

people in your neighbourhood, if such people exist, will admire you and want to spend more time with you. So just head to therestishistory.com and click on gifts. That is the restishistory dot com and please click on gifts. Hello there, it's James Holland and Al Murray, hosts of WW2Pod, we have ways of making you talk. Yes, so Al and I have been on The Restis History a few times now, haven't we out? We've been talking all things World War II with Tom and Dominic, and if you've been enjoying their recent series on the invasion of Norway, the fall of France, and the Battle of Britain, then we have good news for you. That's right, Jim. We have our own show all about the fascinating history of the Second World War. We've been going for longer than

the Second World War itself, haven't we, James? And longer than the rest is history. Twice a week, WW2Pod, we have ways to make you talk, discusses the fascinating people, the incredible innovations and the terrible tragedies of this, I think, the most important people. period of history of all time. Absolutely. The Battle of Hastings. I've got nothing on this. It's 1940, where it's all at. This past year alone now, we've done series, haven't we, on Dunkirk, the Battle of Britain, Hitler's last days in Berlin, the dropping of the atomic bombs.

And we've also explored the women of SOE, Auschwitz, and the nerve-wracking siege of Malta. And in a midst of all this, we take our listeners' family stories and give them an airing so that people can tell the story of what happened to their Uncle Albert, where maybe they were involved with the siege of Malta. and we're doing loads of naval chat at the moment on the main show, such as the fight against the U-boat Wolfpacks in the Atlantic War. So now is a really fantastic time to subscribe and get yourself a bit more nautical. So, search, We Have Ways, wherever you get your podcasts,

and we look forward to you, joining us. Prepare to Board, we have Ways to Make You Talk with me, Al Murray, and James Holland. Thank you. Hello there, I'm William Drimple. I am one of the hosts. of Empire, the Global History Podcast from Gollhanger. You may remember my appearances on The Rest is History when we talked about Afghanistan and the East India Company. As the Ashes returned down under, Anita Anna and I have launched a brand new Empire series on the history, politics, and extraordinary

cultural power of cricket. In the first episode, we dig into the origin of the ashes, England versus Australia, a rivalry born in the age of empires, and still shaping identity on both sides of the world. Then we travelled to India where cricket began with an impromptu beach match and evolved into a sport that mirrored and sometimes magnified the country's communal divides. We also talk about the great Tiger Borti who revolutionised Indian cricket in the 1960s. And for members of the Empire Club, we go still further from the great West Indian players who stood up to racism to the South African cricketers who challenged apartheid at real personal risk.

If you want the full sweep of how cricket changed empires and how, Empires change cricket, just search for Empire wherever you get your podcasts.