The Rest Is Politics - 530. Is Starmer the Next Joe Biden? Rory and Alastair React to Local Elections

Episode Date: May 8, 2026

Will Keir Starmer survive presiding over seismic Labour losses in the local elections, and if he doesn’t who should replace him? Do historic Reform and Green wins for Farage and Polanski confirm the death of two-party politics in the UK? Did the Ed Davey’s Lib Dems and Kemi Badenoch’s Conservatives actually perform better than expected? Join Rory and Alastair as they answer all these questions and more. __________ Our new university student discount: Get TRIP membership for just £20 per year when you sign up using your university email at checkout on therestispolitics.com⁠ Go deeper into the world of The Rest Is Politics by signing up for our free newsletter HERE, featuring exclusive interviews, analysis and weekend reads from Alastair and Rory. Join The Rest Is Politics Plus. Start your free trial at therestispolitics.com to unlock exclusive bonus content – including Rory and Alastair’s miniseries – plus ad-free listening, early access to episodes and live show tickets, exclusive newsletters, discounted book prices, and a private chatroom on Discord. The Rest Is Politics is powered by Fuse Energy. Stop overpaying for energy. Switch at fuseenergy.com/politics and get a free TRIP+ subscription. Get our exclusive NordVPN deal here ➼ nordvpn.com/restispolitics It's risk-free with Nord's 30 day money back guarantee ✅ __________ Instagram: @restispolitics Twitter: @restispolitics Email: [e-mail] __________ Social Producer: Celine Charles Video Editor: Josh Smith Assistant Producer: Daisy Alston-Horne Producer: Evan Green General Manager: Tom Whiter Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Is it emergency or is it live? It's live. Yeah, live emergency. Anyway, it's not one of our normal things because we're having this amazing local election in Britain, which just to remind people, could be huge change for the way the British electoral system works. Yeah, we've got a new system, very new system in Scotland and Wales.

And I guess we're recording this, we're doing this at 1 o'clock on the day after the vote. And the main focus so far has been elections in England. Wales, I am reliably informed by Labour people in Wales, is going to be a disaster for Wales. I was talking to somebody who was in at the count at one of Labour's historically safest seats ever, who said that they were going through the boxes and in every single one of them, Labour was coming third behind Plyden Reform, and it was very neck and neck between Plyden Reform. In Scotland, I think the SMP are going to win.

The question will be whether they get a majority. Some sort of optimists in the Labour camp are saying it's going to be slightly better than we expected, we shall see. And then I think the story... And slightly better, I guess, is that John Curtis was looking, the famous Sir John Curtis, the great pollster. Yeah. Seemed to be suggesting that his polls were thinking SMP will do very well in Scotland, but they weren't quite get a majority, which won't be enough for them to push for a referendum on independence. But he thought it's possible reform could come second.

and Labour and Conservatives neck on neck on about 17 seats. So doing better presumably would mean Labour coming second rather than equal third. I think Labour doing better would mean probably gaining some seats and certainly not falling behind reform, we shall see. And then the votes in England, again, complicated because the places where the Greens and the Lib Dems might expect to do a bit better, many of them still to declare. So the overnight headlines were very much about what the BBC seemed to delight.

calling the reform surge. And they're looking to be around about one in four of those who voted voting reform. I actually think for those who, I suspect most of our views and listeners are kind of not necessarily natural reform voters. We do have some, but not that many. I think to those who are not, there is quite a lot of comfort to be taken in that because the turnout is higher than usual, but still less than half. and but it means that one in three out of four did not vote for a four this is not a this vote

does not say to me that Nigel Farage is the next prime minister. The one in four is interesting also is because broadly across Europe the parties on the right so parties like the afd in germany lepenn I mean further right than the conventional right wing parties tend to be getting between 20 and 30 percent don't they yeah and at the moment of course people like me who are very disturbed by the rise of the AFD in Germany, very disturbed by Fraser Nelson reporting that Robert Jenrick was talking about essentially tracking down and getting rid of two million people from Britain, presumably predominantly Muslims, who reform don't like, take comfort in the fact that they're getting 25, 30 percent of the vote, that they're not

the majority of the vote. Yeah, but I think if you look at the polls and if you look at the expectations that they were trained to create, I'm not quite sure that they've, They've hit the mark. Look, I'm not getting away from the fact. It is a much, much better result for them, certainly than the Tories, certainly than Labor, and probably the Greens as well, because the Greens, I think, are underperforming

against what their expectations are. Just quick on expectations. There was some very odd reporting over the weekend that Nigel Farage was not doing your famous Ken Baker trick of setting expectations very low. In fact, he was doing the opposite. He was doing something that you almost never see in local elections. He was going around saying, this is going to be an amazing win,

this is going to be a great bonanza win, which, of course, gives people at the Conservatives the opportunity, say in Harlow, for example, where the 11 seats up and where reform seemed to be talking about getting seven or eight, the Tories have got a clean suite. Yeah. And so local elections are always a mixed picture. You always kind of, there's a sort of battle for the narrative,

and overnight reform won that battle without a doubt. But I think there's something very interesting. as well about if you look at because the story of the election coverage insofar as there's been that much coverage has really been all the way through this is like a big opinion poll on Kier-Stama we'll come onto that but then the other two parts of the story have been reform doing very very well and high expectations and Zach Pallanski doing the same and I think there's been something interesting I think of the last few days of the campaign some of what you call the well certainly Zach Pallanski's had a pretty bad last few days Nigel Farage has had a

a bad last few days. The difference, I think, is that the, the, the, the relentlessness of the attacks on Zach Polanski appears to have had an impact, whereas I'm not sure that the attack was on Farage half. And remind us the two, so with Polanski, I noticed it was a front page article in the Times saying that he'd not paid council tax on a canal boat that he'd been living on. There was fake, something fake on his CV about being an ambassador for the Red Cross. Okay. And then there was a rerunning of all the other stuff, and he was getting a bit kind of, you know, He wasn't getting a, he wasn't getting, and he, of course, says this is all the right-wing media against him, blah, blah, blah. I think with Farage, though, there's two things, which I think Labor have got to really, really understand the importance of this.

This five million pound donation wasn't getting any much coverage, but it was getting through to the public. And this is Chris Harbourn based in Thailand. Yeah, crypto billionaire, who's given tens of millions already, or over 10 million already to the party, gave this $5 million donation, which Farage claims is, for his reason. lifetime security. And what that, so the worry for Labor is that even when there are what we, you and I would say, and most people would say, genuine scandals attached to Farage, partly because the media doesn't really drive them, because most of the right-wing media want Farage to do well, they're sort of priced in. And it's a bit like Trump, he can get away with more than conventional politician. The second thing, also related to Harbourn, is that Farage,

and the Reform Party now have a lot of money. I can't remember whether we ever did front page wraparounds on evening newspapers. But yesterday, if you got on the tube in London, I don't think reform would do very well in London, but it was just a way of signaling how much they've got, cash they've got in the bank. A wraparound of the evening standard, front page and back page together was an advert for reform

and a full page inside. That's a lot of money. I'd be interested also, I don't know whether anybody's polled reform voters, what the range of opinion is about Farage taking five million pounds, personal donation. Somebody's pointing out to me when I said, you know, why did you take it as a personal donation rather than, you know, speaking fee or something? Apparently the answer is income tax. If Chris Harbourner decided to pay him five million pounds to give a speech, he'd have to pay income tax. Gifts, there's no tax on it, so it's worth twice as much to him. Look, I don't believe the story stacks up.

But the point is, and then today he was asked about it. And so we can talk about that other guy. But he need to earn effectively 10 million pounds to end up with 5 million pounds in his bank account of the way that he has now. Which is sort of money well beyond a kind of partner in a fancy law firm or any of this kind of stuff. Well, well, well beyond. So he's putting himself not into the category of I want to be financially secure and live a middle class lifestyle. He's trying to put himself into the category of, you know, I suppose the top. 0.01% of the British population?

Well, when we did the mini-series of Liam Burm about populism, one of the points he made is that these right-wing populists have got a, you know, they're really, really attracted to using politics to get very, very wealthy. So with Orban, we've seen it with Trump, we've seen it with Trump's family now. But I think, but from Labor's perspective, see, I think there are,

maybe this is a good pivot into Labor, and we can come on to Keir-Starmar, his own position in a minute. But if you think about it, A lot of the problems that the Labour government's got itself into are from decisions that were made that didn't seem to reflect what people thought they were electing. So, for example, we talked about it hundreds of times on the podcast,

the winter fuel payment. But effective government has to be about seeing in advance the sort of changes that actually might be to the benefit of the country. And if you can benefit the country in a certain way, then longer term you get a benefit to your party, seeking re-election after a parliamentary term. Now I would argue, and I argued with some of the people at the Labour Party about this at the time, you and I both felt in opposition, they should be acknowledging that our politics and therefore our democracy itself is facing serious profound threats.

I would argue that one of the reasons why Nigel Farage does as well as he does is because he's been allowed to create a T. Lee Channel, a bit like Fox News did for Trump in America, G.B News, which pumps out propaganda day after day after day. Yesterday, if you turned on the BBC, we've talked about offcom on the podcast. If you turn on the BBC yesterday, the BBC rightly said, obviously on election day, we're not allowed to talk about politics. Okay. Well, don't be surprised, therefore, if any of who's interested in politics, turns you off and goes to their phone and finds the whole bloody world's talking about politics and it's being flooded with advertising. and if you've got the money.

So this money, the money that they've now got, most people are not following politics through newspapers or through the radio or through the television. Lots of them may be through podcasts, but actually an awful lot, they're doing it through that and at election times, if you've got money, you bombard them. Yeah, so you're pointing to something which is about structure. So there are different ways to think about populism.

One of them is about the underlying drivers of people voting for. for the far right and the far left, which is anger about immigration, anger about cost of living, anger about what's happening to local communities. But another way to think about it is in terms of the structures of social media, electoral systems, and campaign finance. So if you were a man that we both admire a lot, Premier South Australia, Peter Malmorskas, you would say, look, if you're bold and serious about this, let's take two of these things.

let's take social media and let's take campaign financing. And let's say we're going to fix the structure. And actually, if you're going to be Australian, you go further. You'd go for an Australian electoral system. You'd go for compulsory voting. All of this makes it less likely for extreme parties to come out of nowhere, take donations from people who are living overseas, exploit the social media landscape.

And so let's have a level playing field. And I think the safest level playing field is to stop all these bloters. party parties taking money. That's what I like about Melanoscus's approach, right? Stop Labor taking it from the unions, stop the Tories taking it from business, and stop reform taking 5 million or 15 million or whatever the whole thing. Instead of which, because the decision was taken, not really to get into that, they're getting into it belatedly through the Rycroft review that we talked about a few weeks ago, where there'll be limits put on donations and also limits from overseas. But because they haven't set that out,

early on. If they were to do that now... Yeah, it just looks like they're sore loses. Exactly. In the middle of what is being described as terrible results and they were suddenly to do that. So I think that's why you've always got to set this inside a kind of a bigger picture where you deliver things over time. So

I think now, you know, what happens now for labour, I mean, around the country today, a lot of labour counsellors who are losing their seats are going to feel really pissed off. A lot of MPs who are looking at the councillors who are pissed off and have lost their seats,

are going to think, well, if they're losing their seats in this scale, I could do the same. That is good. And I think I said the other day, it's always worse when it happens, no matter how much you anticipate it. It's always worse. So today we'll be feeling really, really bad for a lot of people. And you'll be getting, and if you're a Labour MP, you'll be getting very, very angry texts and messages from very loyal party members who've been campaigning for you for years out on the doorsteps in all weather with the leaflets,

you've been going to the Labour Party events with them, and they've all lost their council seats. Yeah, and they're going to be pissed off. And they will be blaming Kirstama, probably. A lot of them will. A lot of them will. And, of course, now, I think the whole Kirstama thing. Most of them will, I think, probably. So it's not to be mean,

but my experience, when Tory's local councillors lost their seats, they blame David Cameron or Theresa May or whoever that leaves. And that's partly because there is such focus on the prime minister and the party leaders in our politics. Same as some people will be saying that, you know, Kemi Badee knock, the Tories is a very mixed picture. It's not a great local election. They're meant to be the main opposition party.

But nobody's really talking about them because they've not done that well. So leaders inevitably get blamed. So then that is inevitably giving rise to the question about whether Kirstama stays or goes. And, you know, and this is really, really difficult because I think all the different, if you look at results as bad,

this. You're bound to say, well, look, if everybody's saying it's about Guillaume, got to make a change. And I'm just sorry, just for listeners who aren't completely following the micro details, one of the big things here is there are just so many more labour seats up than was true last time. So the narrative a year ago was, you know, Chris Mason's the rise and rise of reform. So last year was the moment where reform really seemed to break through and it took the mayoralty in a couple of places and it took six counts. And it took six councils and it was a kind of huge explosion. But Labor only lost something like 400 seats last time round because there weren't that many seats up. This time, Labor almost certainly will lose

well over 1,000 seats because there are over 2,000 of these Labour seats up for grabs. So just in, I mean, forget about percentages in absolute numbers. This is going to feel like an unbelievable hammering for the Labour government. And then you add to that that we were saying shortly after Starma was elected that Labour looked like it was in with a good chance in Scotland. It's definitely not going to win in Scotland. Anasawa's not going to be the first minister in Scotland. So put all of that together, people are going to be thinking,

and just to underline that, Anasawa who called for Keir Starva to resign, thinking that was the way for him to get a kind of break between the damage that he felt UK Labour were doing to Scottish Labour. It might have helped him a bit, I don't know, whereas in Wales, it seems like for some time now they've just kind of given up on imagining any chance of winning. So my point about what now happens to Keir Stama, sometimes what might seem obvious doesn't always happen. And I think in this context, there's various reasons for this. So the first is that there's no doubt there is a sense within a lot of the people you talk to, including people.

people who really criticise Keir Stama, who will say, God, you know, one of the stories, one of the reasons the choice got absolutely shafted is because they kept changing the prime minister. So a lot of them will be thinking, including by the way the people who you think that they might be in with the shout, will be thinking, do we make it better or worse? And then they'll be thinking, do we make it better or worse to do it now? I'll be honest, most of the people you talk to inside the Labour Party, MPs, ministers, etc., sort of say, well, nobody really thinks Keir's going to be there at the election. Okay.

Now, I'm not sure he has done to time of things there. No. Because I think that he can't be enjoying this. He'll be hating today. But you didn't see a guy who was going out, sort of setting out a plan for departure today. This is why I said to you a couple of days ago. You think he's Joe Biden? Yeah, he's rapidly becoming Joe Biden because he's basically in a bunker with his wife saying it's all going to be fine.

Oh, you can't do the Lady Macbeth. We can't do that. Which is not totally unfair. We can go into the next election. We'll win. It's going to be lovely care. Everybody's always underestimated you. I don't usually saying that.

Everyone's always read Tom Baldwin's books. Everyone's always underestimated you. And now, you know, you're going to prove them wrong and you're going to win at the next election. Just give them time to really understand the real care. Yeah. And nobody buys this. So the problem... Can I just interject in Victoria Stammer's defence?

I'm not sure she says that at all. Very good. Okay. Let's work better. So somebody around him must be saying that. There'll be flatterers around him saying. Kier, come on, you know, you're much better than these other people. You've got to stay because, you know, for the country and for the party.

I mean, obviously, you know, Angela Rainer or West Streeting is going to be a disaster. So we need you. We need you to hold the party together. But working backwards, if he cannot run at the next election, it seems to me that your only hope, really, is to get rid of him and hope that someone else does a better job. As Mark Carney said in Davos, hope is not a strategy. Well, it's your only option because the reality is that they may be disasters. Andrew Rainer may be a disaster. West Streeting may be a disaster.

Al-Karne's could be a disaster. A Peter Kahl could be a disaster. Who knows? But give them a shot. Let them run at it. And hopefully have a process that is a bit better than the process that produced Kamala Harris. A bit more of a kind of brutal primary process that really brings out who the... people are, let's us see them, let's see who's got the talent and who sounds more like

Prime Minister. I think of a chance because what Mark Carney's proved is that if you actually can dominate the stage and communicate, you can take over a pretty horrible situation. Canada is not objectively in a good situation. The Canadian economy is under huge pressure. He was inheriting a very difficult legacy. He's turned it around. So you could do it.

And the one person who obviously isn't going to be able to do it. This is my Biden analogy, is Stama. Stama can't do it. But, look, I completely understand why you're saying that. But even as you describe that process, you say, give them a shot. Give them a shot. So that means you're asking, you're asking Kier Stama, Kier, do you mind hanging around being a prime minister for a bit while we sort of all fight it out?

At which point the country starts to think, well, hold on me, are you not a government or are you just another leadership election? How does that process even happen? So this is my point, but in the end, you have to live in the real world. So all these ministers, all these ministers who were briefing, I said this to him, and others have said this to him,

and I think this. In the end, this stuff only happens if he makes a decision to go or he gets forced out. And I don't see, at the moment, rightly or wrongly, I don't see either of those things happening. But what's your definition of strategy again?

You've got a vision. My definition of strategy is the big argument by which you reach an objective that you've set and set out and understood. Okay. Seems to me that the objective that needs to be set out and understood is to do a hell of a good job governing Britain for the next three years. Correct. And second objective is to win the next election. Correct. Okay.

I think if you take those two objectives, Kirstama is not the answer to governing Britain brilliantly with conviction over the next three years, and he's not the answer to winning the next election. And once you've seen that big strategic picture, the conclusion's obvious. Okay. Well, you say the conclusion's obvious. It might be obvious in terms of the decision

that the Labour government and the Labour Party has to make, but the outcome of that decision is not obvious. And that's why I still think it's important to hold back from thinking that, because this is what the Tories did. Get rid of something that's not working, because nothing can be worse than this. this, that's not a strategic approach.

Well, let's look at the Tories a little bit more sympathetically. I mean, my guess is hanging on to Theresa May probably wouldn't have worked. They brought him Boris Johnson. I mean, I happen to think, you know, obviously, terrible human being, terrible prime minister. He won an election. He won an election against all the odds. You know, when I was running against Boris, the basic story was winning that 2019 election would be very, very difficult.

He managed it. Again, they couldn't leave Boris in. it was the right move to get rid of him. Party gate, scandals, the incompetence around COVID, check him out. Nor could they leave those trussing for goodness sake. So they had to move. Now, it didn't work for them because unfortunately Rishi Sunak got many, many talents, but he wasn't a great communicating, strategic, big thinking prime minister. But the other option, which I call the Biden option, which is to be so aware of all the risks and the difficulties involved in getting rid of the leader that you stick with someone who clearly cannot be your long-term leader.

Can't be the answer. Yeah. So let's just stick with the choice there. And let's just imagine who a Labour character might be that fits that journey that you've just described. So David Cameron's the Prime Minister. Yeah. And Theresa May comes in. Kier Starvers, the Prime Minister.

Let's just say that there's, they suddenly decide there's going to be an election. Let's say Angela Raina comes in. Yeah. Okay. I'm not campaigning Angela Rainia to Theresa May, other than the fact that she comes in. Yeah.

I can already think of all sorts of things that can go wrong quite quickly. The tax thing, not resolved. Sure. Has she got the vision? Has she got the talent? Sure. We don't know.

Sure. Let's say she comes in and doesn't last. Sure. Okay. Sure. And then people say, well, we've got to get Andy Burnham in now. Yeah. Okay.

Now, and Andy Burnham, here's a question for you. Here's an issue for you. The Manchester's results that are coming in suggest that the Grings might actually win in Manchester, having already won that by-election. In Angela, a Temside council, which is Angela Rainer's part of the world, Labour is getting absolutely whacked. So people are making assumptions about things that could happen. Now, so what I'm saying is the only possible means of getting to what you're saying, I think,

is if Keir Stama actually looks deep into the soul and says, maybe I was good for that, but I'm not as good for this, and for some reason the public have taken it against me. And I've got to miss, you and I both talked about this, that there is, I think I told you at football much recently, when the crowd started singing Keir Stama's a wanker, sort of apropos of absolutely nothing. There was nothing political going on to the crowd.

That's bad. And every, you know, It's just a football match. You didn't tell us this, actually. No, they don't know. Yeah, it was, it was going through a dull phase. And suddenly it wasn't thousands, but a few hundred. All right.

Kirstama's away. It happened at the darts the other night. So what that says, yeah, what that says is that it's become a thing to quote, hate Kirstama. Because one of the reasons why the front page, back page advert that Reform did, what was their slogan for these elections? Vote reform. Get Stama out.

So it's all a negative thing against him. Now, I think whoever is Prime Minister at the moment in our current culture and climate where things aren't great, they're going to get that. So I'm not minimising either the disastrousness of this result or the fact that there is a real doubt about Kirstama. But I think it's particularly in government, it's such a big thing, as the Tory has found, to say, let's get rid of the Prime Minister. And it underlines the idea that you just care, you're all caring about yourself and not about us. Okay, look, I'm, I course you're right, and I'm, I'm, it's all very well. Look, I'm sitting here in this strange, beautiful studio I noticed with three of your books and only one of mine behind me here.

Well, that's because I've written 21. Yeah, that's right. It's a percentage, percentage point, isn't it? So, you're completely right. It will feel brutal. And you're totally right that the two main reasons this doesn't happen is people are very about who these alternative candidates are. Are they going to be any good?

Yeah. which is what I would call the, you know, the issue around Gretchen Wittner or the issue around Kamala Harris, right? And the second thing, which is the boss himself doesn't want to go, which is what I call the Joe Biden problem. Yeah. Biden doesn't want to go. Historically, also, let's add to that, that Labor has historically been much less good at getting rid of leaders than the Conservatives. We're going to say, you mentioned, hold on to Jeremy Corbyn for years, right? So I can see all that. And equally, I think if you weren't as close to it as you obviously are and you were really stepping back, you know, if I'm to ask some nerdy large language model, these are the facts, what should happen, I think the conclusion is obvious.

You can't, I mean, in a sense, a scenario where Stama tries to cling on for another three years, he doesn't. doesn't know how to communicate. It doesn't matter how many speech coaches he's got, how many new speech writers he's got. He doesn't know how to communicate. Secondly, he's really struggling to generate a stable team in number 10. I mean, he's losing them like you can't believe. I don't know the number of chiefs of staff he's had, heads of press he's had, let alone the number of permanent secretions in the civil service the guy burns through. He's not got any loyalty in the civil service. I mean, they're all, I got a joke from a friend today saying, oh yeah, we see it, yeah, local elections goes wrong. Keir Stahmer's, you know, taking full responsibility, civil service

drawing lots on which one of them's going to have to resign, right? So, and what is he actually done in policy terms? He's not really managed to work out what the message was before the election, it's the problem of the main vast strategy. He didn't come in saying, here's my big, bold message, and I'm going to tell the voters before. I agree with it. my MPs before and I can tell the MPs after. I've always said that is the big weakness about the whole thing. The lack of a compelling narrative, the fact that, and I think these results

in London, and some of the ones that we're seeing in Manchester, I've always felt that the strategy that is basically focused on what they call hero voters, and they basically mean people who voted reform, I've always felt it was a mistake because I think Labour was at risk of losing far more

support to the left. At the moment, they're losing both to the right and to the left because of that lack of a story that brings Let me speak as a labour-friendly right-winger. Yeah. There were obviously two narratives that they could pursue. I think you're less labour-friendly than you were, less right-wing than you were as well. Yeah, probably both things.

I actually think that one of their problems is that when they think about the right-left divide, they're fixated with reform and green. Actually, I think there are a lot of Lib Dem Tory voters who could be potential Labor voters, right? So there are a lot of the people that we go to talk to when we go to business events and talk about geopolitics who actually were very excited by Labor before the election thought the Tories, particularly under Liz Trust, had blown their credibility on the economy. Here was the Chancellor coming in saying, I care about growth, I care about deregulation, I'm going to keep taxes low, I'm going to be sensible and borrowing. So there was a story, the grownups are taken over, we're serious, we're pragmatic, we're going to run a serious economy, we're going to get under control. That, unfortunately, I'm afraid, was very damaged by the fact that instead of accepting when they saw the financial problems that they would come up with a pragmatic fiscal policy,

they thought they'd do something cute putting up employers national insurance while claiming they wouldn't put up tax that made a lot of people sad. and they haven't felt business-friendly, deregulation-friendly. I know people like Peter Carl really want to do it, and I want to hear more from him, really want to see him saying, here are the big supply-side reforms, here are the big deregulation, this is how we're business-friendly, this how entrepreneurial, right? Or with the Lib Dem voter, let's see the kind of values, let's see the position more clearly on Trump, on geopolitics, on Europe.

You know, you've talked a lot about the fact that there was a huge opportunity to get us all back by saying let's, you know, be radical about Europe. You know, let's rejoin Europe. Let's say Trump and security threats and Ukraine and all this has changed the whole world. This is a big direction going. But if your narrative is only, I'm going to cut one of fuel and that and I'll put it up again. I'll cut down, you know, farmers and heresy and knock it up again. I'm going to hit, you know, it's just who the hell are you appealing to?

Who are you exciting? Just on the point about Europe and Brexit, the other thing is really interesting about the results so far. And this may sound obvious, but seats where, wards where there is a high leave vote historically, have gone very, very strongly to reform. Okay. In wards where there was a very, very remain, high remain vote, Farras has got no chance. Absolutely no chance. And that's why I think some of those. people who voted leave can be won back by a strategy that improves the economy, improves their public services, and also calls out Farage's role in making every single one of them poorer. They just never done that.

So one classic example, which I think confirms this point that Labor's missed a whole trick in the centre ground, is what's happened with Westminster Council. So I voted Kensington Chelsea yesterday, Ponce Street Church, going to put a position. These are voters who delivered Labor MP, Westminster Council was lost in 2022, and broadly speaking, if you go into that polling station, you would have felt that you were going back to 1980s. It was a very, very nice, quiet, respectable, conservative lady. I don't quite want to call a blue rinse standing there politely with her picture paper. Did you vote for?

I don't tell you who I voted for. Why no? No, I don't know who I voted for. Partly because I'm going to ruin your whole podcast if I start revealing the fact that I, I actually tend to move my vote around more than you'd like to hear. I moved it once, it's spelled from the party. But what I would say is that that kind of middle of the road remain voting pro-business Tory who went over to Labor in the general election

will have been tempted to come back towards the Tories, even if they feel – And certainly will not be excited by Labor. I'm not going to vote reform. No. and they're never going to be green. Right. You see, this is the other thing which I think, the other element of all of this

since the election, let's go back to the election. You mentioned the Ming Vars. They come in, they make a few mistakes. They do a few good things, gets drowned out by all sorts of other stuff. But what they've never done, really, is project to the country a sense of optimism,

a sense of, we can get through this, we can do it. They say it, but it's like that point I'm about that Steve Parrish, the Crystal Palace chairman, congratulations on getting to the final of the European thing, is the thing that he says every time they come on television, they look like they've just lost a football match, that they should have won.

There's got to be big messaging and big policy that excites people and makes them think the country's going somewhere. You can't just manage. You can't just manage crisis. Kirstama, I think, has done pretty well on some of the international stuff, although I still wouldn't underestimate how much Gaza, first steps, these big, big moments, and yet back to the point about Farage gets away with it, Farage completely cocked up in relation to the start of the Iran War by wanting to get into

bed with Trump, but he sort of, he gets away with it. Listen, all these, we have lots of feedback, but one interesting one, which I think... Yeah, yeah, and I've actually got some polling in our WhatsApp group. Coming in here, all right, so coming in our polling. Who would best replace Kirstarmer? Yeah, so Andy Burnham's 72%, Angela Rainer, 16%, West Streeting 11%. Remember, this is the people who happen to be watching our podcast. Yeah, yeah.

Who's most likely to win a general election? Nigel Farage, 66%, Kirstama, 21%, Zach Polanski, 8%, Kemi Bavnock, 5%. This is the current leaders. Who is the biggest winner of this local election two minutes ago, reform 88% green 12%. Look, this is not a national polling. This is people who are interacting with life, but it's interesting. So just to sum that out. They basically think, regardless of what you and me say, the forms done very well,

and that it feels like the next prime minister is likely to be Nigel Fras. But these results don't say that. They don't say that. They say that he's leading in a multi-party system. Five-party system, six-party system. Five-six-party system, which is not yet getting used to the fact that we no longer have the two-parties. We're no longer have the dominant two parties

in a system that's still designed for it. I think on this, what you will see, I could be completely wrong and we've always got to be mindful of, you know, not sort of wishful thinking or thinking that what you said

would happen, then happens. But if I'm genuinely thinking about this from a reform perspective, I think there is the case to be made that this is about high watermark. Apart from the one exception I'll say to that is they are now going to be so well-funded in terms of campaigning, and that does make a difference.

I... I'll know you a bet now, Nigel Farage is not Prime Minister. Very good. Very good. Okay. Only if you tell me how you voted. No, I'm not going to tell me how about it. Kemi Bade Knox got a problem. I mean, she's going to be happy that she's done quite well in some of these local elections. But the question of how she positions herself against Farage, I'm still

mesmerized by. You know, for example, today, she wasted time in the middle of the local election attacking my friend David Gork, who just got a knighthood. Now, David Gork is very much a conservative from the old center of the Conservative Party. You know, he was Lord Chancellor, Justice Secretary under Theresa May. You got the night job for doing that review. Yeah, a review into the criminal justice system as an independent guy. And he is somebody who I think most mainstream, I'm talking, I'm toxic with some Tory MPs. David Gork shouldn't be. He was one of the most decent,

serious public servants we ever had. And for her to be giving out interviews saying she's spitting mad that he got a knighthood, that's not a good sign, because she too should be trying to re-win the centre ground. Yeah. Well, you know my views about the honour system. Anyway, so, but I, no, I thought,

let's just think about the, Camie Bay. Just spitting mad with anyone getting a title or not. Regardless. I used to be speaking about, I'm more indifferent, but I can't get too excited. Is it not okay with a football manager getting in eye-hurt? Is that? Not that bothered. No, not bothered.

No. But I think the jury is, I listened to, I saw James Cleverly on the television, and he was doing a kind of a modernized version of the Wonsworth, Westwood's the thing. But I think, I think it is important. The reason why these people are watching us and listening to us are saying, this all says Farage is the next prime minister, because that's what you would take out of the way this debate is being held today. It's a long, long time to go. I think, let's just take the five million pound thing, the donation. I think if that had emerged in week one of a four-week general election

campaign, by the end of that campaign, it would have done real damage to Farage, real damage. Absolutely. And I also think, as somebody going into the polling base thinking this through, I think the way that many people will vote in a general election if the question is, is Nigel Farage going to be prime minister? Or Zach Polanski? It's going to be, that was Zach Polanski. It's going to be very different to what you're doing in a local election where you may be trying to kick the two main parties.

But if somebody actually asks you, do you want Nigel Farage to be prime minister? I'd be interested in what the polling is. I reckon that will be considerably below what reform voters. And I think you mentioned Boris Johnson there. I think what Farage has done, helped by the other parties making the mistakes that they've made I think he has kind of reconstituted

in a certain way the coalition that Johnson put together Well that's why it's no accident that you get a lot of the Johnson people going over to him Danny Kruger was Boris Johnson's Chief of Staff effectively has gone over to Farage

and you can see a lot of Boris's messages seem to be very much on a Farage line Oh, Nadine Doris, who was a great Boris Johnson fan, also gone over to Farage. So, yeah, Nigel Farage is the sort of Boris Johnson party, and he's appealing to the same sentiment, which is the kind of, you know, he's a bluff, straightforward guy who I can trust, and he's going to be able to make the radical moves. And of course, what it turned out with Boris is that it wasn't true.

Boris Johnson did not make radical moves. He wasn't pro-business. He didn't deliver on any of his promises on immigration. In fact, he did the reverse. Pretty weird. Having got an anti-immigration run, he brought in about a million people. So it's people need to understand that the idea that someone is a good media performer and can be quite funny is not the same as them being sort of radical reforming prime minister who's going to improve the country.

Well, let me say that is exactly what would happen if Nigel Farge ever did become prime minister. I mean, let's just understand. I mean, this is a guy. You talk about the immigration thing. One of the reasons, and the current government gets the blame because they're in charge and I understand But one of the reasons why immigration is sought, as you say, is because of Brexit. And one of the reasons why the economy has been screwed up is because of Brexit. I find it utterly insane that anybody would think that the architects of Brexit should be even considered to be written down the street.

And yet there he is. And yet their moves are so interesting. So I've been watching Dominic Cummings, right? And obviously Dominic Cummings has been having a bit of go at two of us. I mean, criticize you for the Iraq war, criticize me for backing Kamala Harris. He doesn't own Brexit at all. He doesn't own Boris Johnson at all. Nor does Farage.

No, Brexit. Boris Johnson, forget that. You know, all the disasters that happened during the time when he was in charge, it doesn't matter. What he's now talking about is basically Muslim rape gangs is what he wants to talk about. And it's a very, very interesting. You'll see it with Farage. Shift the conversation on to trying to appeal to something completely and not take responsibility

for what they did when they were in office. Right. And the difference at the moment, I don't want to see it. here and to sort of, you know, blame the media the whole time. But the truth is, as, as Mark Gattis, the actor said on the New Statesman podcast last week, you know, Keir Stahmer gets covered like his Vlad the Impaler, and Nigel Farage gets covered like a cuddly celebrity. We do have a real problem with our media culture and our political media culture. There's a couple of things. Yeah, I got one here. Go ahead. I start then. Mark, who's listening. Thank you, Mark for listening.

Thank you. Everybody who's joined us. Does Stama really want his legacy to be the PM who ushered him one of the most far-right governments in UK history. Does he not have the self-awareness to see how he is a big part of the problem, right, or wrongly? Surely he has to understand the only chance Labour have is through starting fresh. So this is, again, the Biden critique, right? The problem with hanging on is you end up with Trump. The problem with hanging on is you're taking the risk of ending up with Farage. Yeah. Look, the answer to the first part, Mark's question, Tustan wanted legacy to be the PM rushes in the most far-right government history. No, he doesn't, Okay. But he will be thinking that that does not have to be his legacy if he gets his act together, if the government raises his game. And I accept their big F's. And it may be what these results may show, I don't know. It may be that the country has just decided not having him. That sometimes happens.

Here's another question of you from Hester. Thank you, team for sending it to us. Will Labour Greens and Even Tories wake up and start forming a pact against reform, calling them out for what they are, pointing out their faith. frauds, single policies, Trump supporting rhetoric, etc. This is what the Dutch parties did so well with Hurt Wilders. It's also what to give him credit the German Chancellor has done by refusing to make a pact with the AFD. So that's why I'm very disturbed to see Kemi Badenok. Yeah, and it's giving the impression that she's sort of leaving that out. It's also a version of what Majjad did in Hungary

by persuading all the other parties to kind of unite as one. We have, our gremlins have also been polling on this as well. Should Labor form a pact with the Lib Dems? Yes, 62, no 38. Did you notice, by the way, that Ed Davy wasn't in your list that you read out? Is that because he got no point? That's a bit depressing, is it? I hope it wasn't like Abba in Brighton back in the 70s when they got null plans in the UK.

Can we just pause on that for a second? Because we don't talk enough about the Lib Dems. And actually, there are substantial figures. I mean, you know, what have they got 70-something seats in Parliament? They've had some amazing. results today, like total bypass in some places. Doing one on the local elections. So we talk about why Farage gets covered and why the Tories don't.

What's the story about the Lib Dems? I mean, why, given that they have a historically huge representation of Parliament, given that, you know, a lot of people in Centreground, why have the Lib Dems not really cut through in the right way in the last year and a half? I guess because, I'm sorry to keep banging about the media, I think we've got a trivial media. So they prefer, oh, Zach Palanski, didn't he once hypnotize a woman and say that he could make her boobs better?

Let's keep going on. Is that right? Or is it that when they report Ed Davy, actually it's almost the reverse. It's that because of that they're reporting Ed Davy because he's doing some weird thing, some stunt. I think the stunt thing is at its day. But I, look, they, we. And was that not an error, that stunt thing?

It might have been, but it's kind of. For the long term. I mean, the short term, fine. But don't you think of the long term it's what people will remember him for as doing jolly stunts? And how do you then tilt from that to being

the moral voice against Donald Trump? It's quite tough, right? Because he has been very tough against Trump. Yeah, but it's not taken with the same gravitas since it's not like

Hillary Ben or Gordon Brown suddenly starts talking about Donald Trump because Gordon Brown's not to be found you know. Gordon Brown is definitely not going to go down a slide into a swimming pool that he's not going to do that. If he did, he definitely

were wearing a suit and tie. I think if you're trying to present yourself, like the grades. Possibly. I also think that the Lib Dems have had the historic problem that they have is that they are appealing to different constituencies in different parts of the country. I think they should have led the way much more volubly on Europe. That's what Polanski has tried to do. And by the way, the European thing is a risk. But the whole point about the Ming Vars strategy is that I think it bred in the Labour mindset.

Well, that was really successful. So let's not take too many risks. I think politics now is not just about the need to good communication, it's the need to have big things to argue about and win the arguments against your opponents. Also, you can't be a cautious MingVars status quo, easy as you go party today. I mean, Trump is basically exploding the world. AI is upturning all our economies on their head. Populism is on the rise. I mean, you're only hope to survive in a world in which volcanoes are going off and earthquakes wherever.

It's not to stand still and say steady as you go, but start dancing around the lava. Just to cheer up any of our Lib Dem listeners, they did say, I think the council that I was thinking of, not a single councillor from another party who was elected in Richmond-upon-Thames. There we are. That's all one-party state. Yeah, yeah, yeah, no, Richmond's very one-party state. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And they also, and three green council has got the boot.

And the Lib Dems have also gained Portsmouth and Stockport. And they've held Eastly. The gremlins are texting again. Bloody how honestly, just enough stopped, does it? In our Sunday read this weekend, they pointed out. Oh, it's for a plug. Here we go. We'll be covering the local elections in lots of details, lots of interviews with local

councils across the country. So, yeah, Sunday read, worth looking at our newsletter if you want more details, really detailed interviews with local councils. So to receive it, sign up to our free newsletters through the link in the bio. But Mark's got a question. On the doorsteps, labor canvances reportedly encounter a visceral dislike of Keir Stama. Yeah. Do these reports concur with what you're hearing?

If so, does this mean Keir has got a... It's interesting visceral dislike. I mean, I find it like a sort of slightly disappointing kind of accountant, but I'm not someone I'd get visceral dislike on. the hate thing is real and is that just part of our culture I said that you and I discussed this a few weeks before What do they hate him for though?

I'll tell you why I've thought about this a lot and I went to, I was in a school recently and I sensed that some of them were in this kind of I really hate him sort of category and I said look you can say you're as you say

you're disappointed he's not exciting it's not this and that but hatred is such a strong thing I mean there are people in the world I hate but not many of them there aren't that many

But, you know, a lot of people clearly do hate him. And that did come up in the doorstep a lot. And this young woman, she was probably about 17, voting for the first time. And she said, I've thought about this. She said, what you can understand? When he stood to be leader, he said he was one thing. And then he came in, he was something different. And then when he stood to be prime minister, he was giving one sort of impression.

Then he came in and he gave him another. And if you're my age, you think they're all shit, but he's the guy in charge. Okay, so that's one story, which is that he's inconsistent. He says one thing, does another. And if you were to talk to the guys in the stands who are chanting against, let's say you were talking, I don't know, let's say a 35-year-old guy in Burnley who told you they hated Kirstama. What might they say about why they hated him? Well, while I was speaking there, I just had a message, not from our team,

but from somebody else says Burnley have lost all seats Labor have lost all seats in Burnley Your question about why were they singing that I think for the Look in the end They're at a football match Yep

Might have had a bit to drink Yeah But I think the mood around Discussion of politics In a lot of working class areas Is They're not doing anything for us Tell us about Burnley though

Sorry I keep pushing on What sort of place is it Where is it? Former Milltown Yeah has got some industrial development, but it's struggled. Unemployment pretty high. Historically racial tension, quite strong.

Up in Lancashire. In East Lancashire, yeah. Transport links being talked about forever, never really improved. Okay, and was a Labour safe seat and then went to Lib Dems briefly, then back to Labour. And now? Well, currently a Labour MP. Yep, and in the local elections? Well, I don't know whether this is one of the, if they've lost every seat,

I don't know whether this is one with just the third going or the whole council. Okay. So, but look, there's no doubt. And there's no doubt. And there's no doubt. Yeah. Yeah. But the point is in those parts of the country that have been historically working class

labor, clearly reform has managed to present itself as the party that cares for the working class. Now I would argue to Lundbleu in my face. That is not the case. That he does really care more about the crypto billionaires than he does about you. But while that is going on, labor and the other people, parties have to do a far, far better job of saying, yes, I do understand your problems. I'll see another thing which I was talking to a minister this morning and he was going to be

doing media a bit later on and telling me what he's sort of thinking of saying while have you. And I said, listen, the problem with a lot of you is the first five minutes that you're talking on television, you're like commentators, you tell us what the problems are. We know what the problems are. Your job is to sort them and to give hope and optimism. that they're being sorted. Yeah. So I think that sense of...

Yeah, well, it's a bit like, sorry, I don't want to be boring, but I sometimes feel this, like if you get the plumber in, and the plumber spends the first five minutes saying, oh, it's all very difficult, and this, that, and the other, and this happening with the pipes,

they're saying, you actually want them to say, here I am, so solution is what I'm doing, I'm going to get on and do it. Even better, actually, maybe they get on and do it without talking too much. And your point earlier about growth, again, we're repeating ourselves here,

because I felt right from the word go, they said growth is the big thing. But here we are, almost halfway through the parliament, you know, nearly two years. And if you were to say to any of those people who voted reform in Burnley,

but more than that, probably any small business person or any big business person, right, I'm going to put you on the spot, define for me the four key elements of Labor's growth strategy. I'm not sure what they are. Now, you mentioned, you know,

Gordon not doing stunts, but I have to say, back in, you know, when Tony and Gordon were around, we had some bad local elections, don't get wrong, we did. But he could definitely tell you what the forward was. We'd definitely be able to tell you what a gross to do. Gordon round definitely. And not even four points, 17 points probably.

And what's more, you'd have heard it through the campaign as well. And you'd have known that's what it's about. So when you talk to Labour, if you talk to reform, what was their message for the campaign? They're basically saying vote reform, get Starmour out. This is like, and this is a referendum on Kea Starrmer. Let me come there. You said it to Labor.

Okay, last time though, because imagine you're a Burnley voter who hates Kirstama and you're like 40-year-old guy from East Lancashire. Got the guy's age five years in two minutes. Okay. What would he say, unlike your 17-year-old at school, what might he say about why he hates Kirstama? Well, if I recall one conversation that I did actually have, he wasn't 40, he was a bit younger than that. but he I mean a lot of it

my fade was a lot of the mythology which of course gets pumped out the whole time he's posh well he's not he's a sir well yeah he is but that's because he was the DPP

but I think the main thing actually he'd say is he doesn't really understand my life okay and they're not and I don't think that and of course this is exacerbated when all the other seas there he's getting on a plane he's going to Armenia

you and I would argue he used to do all that foreign policy stuff but if your life is not great and you want somebody to blame, then blame the guy who told you who's going to change things and make you life better and actually spend his whole time on a bike. That's what they, that's what he said. And weirdly, he wouldn't think of Farage or even Boris Johnson as being posh in the same way. I mean, it's kind of weird kind of thing. Because obviously, in such, you know, Boris, I mean, I had this recently actually two days ago.

A very, very wealthy business person came. up to me and said, course, Rory, you're not going to like Nigel Farage, because he's not enough for Toph for you, he's not posh enough for you. And they'd obviously decided that Farage was, you know, proper kind of voice of the working class, this kind of public school educated, city trader, etc. So what is it about the way in which Farage and Johnson communicate that might make the man in Burnley feel, completely wrongly, but feel that he relates to the more easily than some? I guess it is. sort of form of charisma.

It's like, you know, it's just the same. You and I maybe never understood it, but the truth is, I used to see it. When Boris Johnson walked into a room, people went, oh, wow, Bruce Johnson. You know, it's sort of an excitement. I think there's a little bit of that with Farage. Not quite the same. And I do think, by the way, I still do, honestly believe

Farage has peaked. Yeah. Because I think he's started to make mistakes. He's got away with it for now, but I think he's going to really struggle. One of the reasons, I think, I'm not even convinced he'll be there at the next station. Because I think what's happening now,

you've got these other people who consider themselves as quite big beasts. Like Robert Jenrick, can feel like. Well, Richard Tice, Robert Jenrich, is he use of it. No, you can no longer,

no, Farage would say, well, I've done that strategically. Yeah. They always said I was a one-man man, I'm not a one-man band. But I think you've seen the, I saw a very interesting thing on social media the other day.

It was a guy who was dressed up in a union flag suit, okay? And he was going around interviewing people asking them about reform, policies and pretending to be reformed candidate. Yeah. So he would say things like, you know, so why, you vote

for reform? Yeah, yeah, I'm over, wait for it. Oh, I like Nigel. Well, Brexit was good or whatever. And then the guy would articulate some of their policies or a version of them. So he would say, well, you know, are you happy that we're going to be privatising the health service? And they go,

oh, okay, okay. And you know, by the way, we're going to fight for the billionaires. We think the billionaires, people you defy for you'd get these guys who would like to say yeah I agree with that agree with that

so I think it's the job given the media isn't going to do it it's the job of the other parties to make sure the public understand the reality of who these people are what they're offering

and beat them and I don't think is that difficult I guess my final we should wrap in five minutes but my final we don't want to go Joe Rogan and do three and a half hours

no my final point then will be let's hope there's a new primacy soon and let's hope they start doing stuff. Let's hope they demonstrate on growth, on immigration, on AI, on values,

because probably the best way to defeat Farage is not just being slicker with the communication but actually improving people's lives. Yeah, make the country better. 100%. I mean, look, I've... I can see why you think and why so many other people think

it's clearly about the guy at the top has got to change. I think the problems run deeper. I think the whole cabin has to step up. They spend far too much time talking about themselves, talking about their internal battles. We haven't, I mean, it's maybe a bit uncomfortable because you're friends for them.

I mean, I worry that it's actually pretty weak that cabinet. It's not a great front bench. Yeah. And that, you know, I'm not like looking at Ernie Bevin and Nye Bevan and being like, whoa, these guys. I'm not looking at Wilson's cabinet.

I'm afraid, you know, we were pretty rude about a lot of the Tory cabinets, but person for person, I can name six or seven people out of Cameron's cabinet, May's cabinet, Johnson's cabinet, who are probably stronger performers than a lot of the state cabinet. Including yourself. Definitely, including myself, definitely. No, but I'm not going to deny that.

My point is, I think that, and look, this thing doesn't help. I mean, every time I see a bloody journalist on television, I've just had a WhatsApp from a member of the cabinet, and they want the fucking doing what's happening? You know, get on with your job. So, but my point is, I think that. that that underlines the point I made earlier. Unless you can see that there's a really good and obvious field are going to do better, it might be best for labour to wait.

It might be best. But, you know, we're clearly, we're not, we're going to agree. And I'm going to disagree agreeably on us. Do you be absolutely frank, Rory, I sometimes disagree agreeably with myself. Yeah. Because I think, I think sometimes, yeah, it's obvious. And I think, hmm, I think through the possible consequences,

I worry about it. So we haven't got the full whales of Scotland results yet. Thank you all very much for listening. I'm pretty sure knowing my friend here that he will probably be putting out some more reporting and social media stuff as we get more results coming through. This time next week, our interview with Angela Rainer, which is part of the Gen Z members series. Yeah, which is really good. We're going to make it free for everyone. It's great that.

We haven't often put out a series, which isn't forwarded by you and me. But he's done a pretty good job. I was talking to a friend who was playing it in the car. And he was describing, you know, his wife interrupting him and saying, I disagree with that. And he was like, wait, wait, wait, they'll get to that. And sure enough, well, he listened to it twice. Yeah, yeah. Excellent.

Yeah, yeah. No, and I'll tell you that, just on that, by the way, talking about Gen Z. So what's happened is, Vicki Spratt has done this series, and then part of it, she and I sat down with Andrew Rayner because she's done a lot of the sort of renter stuff and the housing or what you. But I actually too think the, the, the, a Gen Z package and an understanding of this, and maybe getting into the whole intergenerational inequality thing. Maybe we're going to about big bowl things. Maybe actually a labor coming on and saying, look, there's triple lock thing's got to go. Yeah. We've got to actually, you know, spend less on older people,

apart from those who really needed. Boy, dear Kemi Badnock, if you're listening, if you're trying to present yourself as the great economic realist, triple lock's got to go from the Tory manifesto. too. So, you know, and then have a proper argument where you can get out and say, look, is that Planskii can't do any of this for you? Because he's not going to be Prime Minister. So anyway, yeah, so Vicky Spratt, excellent miniseries, and Doreena, looking forward to putting that out in the next few days. And there we go. I can't pretend that it's been the most, what's the opposite of depressing, happiest discussion. Reform currently on 561, Lib Dems 337, Touring. 307, Labath 2.92,

380 seats lost, Green 106. And just for those of you who have been pointing out the slight irony that our Gen Z series requires paying, we've got a student discount running 20 pounds for a year. So you can hear not just the Gen Z series, but actually some mini-series we're very proud of. Alistair did some great stuff on Rupert Murdoch.

We did stuff together on JD Varns. I've done an AI miniseries, which is still ongoing, which I really would love people to listen to. But mostly, thank you very much. Thank you for listening. And this is Rory's signing off. See you soon. Probably back.

Cloudy soon. I don't know. There you go. Bye-bye, guys. Thanks again.