The Rest Is Politics - 569. Farage’s Foreign Funding Scandal and Germany’s Far-Right Breakthrough

Episode Date: September 8, 2026

As the Alternative for Germany party secured its best ever election result in Saxony-Anhalt, is the country about to get its first far-right state premier since the Nazi Party, and will Chancellor Friedrich Merz survive the fallout? What does an undercover documentary on Reform's fundraising reveal about the men presenting themselves as the movement's moral and intellectual core, and has the law been broken? Is Europe now entering a new era defined by right-wing extremism? Alastair and Rory are joined by Deputy Editor of Bild-Zeitung, Paul Ronzheimer, who has been on the ground in Saxony-Anhalt, where voters have propelled the pro-Russian, anti-EU AfD to the cusp of power. __________ Be the first person to correctly guess the single word title of Alastair’s upcoming book to win a signed first printing and a personal note from Alastair HERE.  Enjoy Rory and Alastair’s interview with Anthony Scaramucci by searching ‘Leading’ on Spotify, Apple, or YouTube. Go deeper into the world of The Rest Is Politics by signing up for our free newsletter HERE, featuring exclusive interviews, analysis and weekend reads from Alastair and Rory. Join The Rest Is Politics Plus. Start your free trial at therestispolitics.com to unlock exclusive bonus content – including Rory and Alastair’s miniseries – plus ad-free listening, early access to episodes and live show tickets, exclusive newsletters, discounted book prices, and a private chatroom on Discord. The Rest Is Politics is powered by Fuse Energy. Stop overpaying for energy. Switch at fuseenergy.com/politics and get a free TRIP+ subscription. 🌏 Upgrade your online protection with an all-in-one security app! Get an exclusive NordVPN deal + 4 months extra here ➼ nordvpn.com/restispolitics It’s risk free with NordVPN’s 30-day money-back guarantee! __________ Instagram: @restispolitics Twitter: @restispolitics Email: [e-mail] __________ Social Producer: Emma Jackson Lead Video Editor: Josh Smith Video Editor: Bruno Di Castri Assistant Producer: Daisy Alston-Horne Producer: Evan Green Exec Producer: Bella Soames Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Let's look at the same week in two different countries. Here in Britain, masked men in black shut down two of the country's busiest ports, protesting about small boat crossings despite the actual numbers falling. Reforms conference, beginning with two senior officials forced to resign over yet another corruption scandal for Nigel Farage. And in Germany, voters propelling the pro-Russian anti-EU AFD to the cusp of power in Saxony-Anhalt, where it could become the first far-right party to run a German state since. the era of the Nazis. This isn't just a British story or a Germany story. Right-wing, xenophobic nationalism is on the march across the world. But can it be stopped in Europe? Or are we entering

another period of our history to be defined by right-wing extremism? This episode is powered by Fuse Energy. 100 pounds. That is what one message to a friend could earn for you. Fuse Energy has one aim, keeping energy prices down for everyone. not just for those who ring up and threaten to leave. The tariffs are already among the lowest on the market, and now they're doubling their referral offer. Refer one friend, and you will get £100 off your bills. And that's each of you, £100 off your bills.

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The links in the episode description. This family is on the brink of civil war on September 18. Mobland, the hit original series is back on Paramount Plus. We are the Harrogans. Don't know the ant? And Google us. From the underworld of Guy Ritchie. Do you want to step up the ladder? I won't comment. Dead.

Starring Tom Hardy, Pierce Brosnan and Helen Mirren. Do I have to do everything myself? You want to want! I'll give you a... Mobland. New season hits September 18th on Paramount Plus. Welcome to the rest of the politics. We are honest Campbell. And with me, Rory Stewart.

And we are going to focus on... the hard right, both in Britain and in Germany. We're going to start in Germany after this extraordinary election in Saxony-Anhalt. And then in the second half, we're going to talk about the brilliant TV exposure of the, to my mind, clear law-breaking going on in reform fundraising. And we're going to talk a bit about the confidence that they had and also about these, the medias call them protesters, I call them far-right thugs who were trying to shut down our ports. Absolutely brilliant, Alistair. A lot of this is about what are these parties, what's the culture of these parties and the way in my mind that they're just eroding everything that we cared about with democracy. We do seem a bit different today. We're devoting the whole episode to two big stories about the far right in Europe.

And we're starting with Germany because there was this extraordinary election in Saxony-Anhalt, which is the smallest of the 16 lender, 2.1 million people. But they had the world's media there this week because this was reckoned to be possibly the first time. Hitler's time, that there would be a minister-president of a German state, a prime minister, as it were, of a German state, who came from the hard right. And the AFD, the alternative for Deutschland, they got a massive, 43, almost 44%, doubling their support. And the CDU, the Christian Democrat Party, which is headed nationally by Friedrich Merz, the Chancellor. And locally in this state, by Sven Schulzer, they saw their support more than half. So pretty seismic, and to get our heads around this, we're joined, and very happy to be joined by Powell Ronsheimer, who is a senior executive at Bilt Saetal.

He actually presents one of Germany's biggest podcasts called Ronsheimer, which, unlike ours, he does daily. And if he looks a bit exhausted, he's because he's been doing it daily from Zaxony, Anhalt for the last few days. So Paul, we're very, very pleased to have you with us. Right around the world, essentially, there are headlines saying that this election of the smallest of the lender is seismic. Is it being overstated or do you think this really is as significant as people literally right around the world as saying? And, Paul, would you mind just giving us the figures and reminding people who haven't followed the details of exactly what's happened? Yeah, I think it's really significant, not only for Germany, and you could see that in Magdeburg, which is the capital of Saxony-Anhal. We saw CNN, New York Times, everybody was there, I think, for the first time ever.

And I mean, if we see the numbers, it's the AFD up to 43, 44%, you have the CDU down to 17. We have never seen something like that in Germany before. And I would say all the politicians in the past five, ten years would always argue that can never happen. because the AFD as the right-wing populist or extremist party, the CDU and the now-Chancellor Friedrich Merz said that he could have the AFD and now they are double. If you see Ulrich Siegmund, if you see the people behind Orygsegmund, I mean, you always have to be very carefully with kind of simply calling the AFD the new Nazi party

because historically this is too simple, but if you see people around Siegmund and what they said in the past, this is really worrying for many people here in Germany. And at the same time, it shows that all the arguments from the CDU, SPD against AFD, and also, I mean, the mainstream media talking about the AFD, that people are not listening anymore,

that commentators comparing it and telling people, you know, look back in our hearing, history, that people are fed up with it and that they're not listening to these arguments anymore. To step back, why should people care about the AFD? Tell us who the AFD are, why they're interesting and what this tension is between the story around the man that has dominated the election in Saxony-Anhalt, Oric Siegmund and the other characters. Is it a party we need to be worried about and why? So the AFD came up in Germany in 2013, first as in anti-Euro party during the Euro crisis. Listeners remember the crisis in Greece and the bailout.

So that were the first steps. But after the big migration crisis in 2015, the AFD became bigger and bigger. And it was already during the time of Angela Merkel, you know, having the biggest opposition against the migration course, but not only that. It's not only a populist party you could see in Italy or France or other European countries. It's also a party with right-wing extremist. It's a party with fascists inside. For example, the party now in Saxony Anhal was Uri Siegmund. You have people around him 15, 20 years ago. They were in kind of use fascist groups and were really having extremist ideas. This is one thing which is worrying for many people here in Germany.

And then there is also like lots of politicians inside the AFD appraising Russia and Putin, like very pro-Russian pro-Putin party. We have people in Magdeburg, you know, they would go to. the Russian embassy for Putin's birthday. They would go to Russia right after the full-scale invasion against Ukraine. They would argue that they could understand what Putin did. So I would say these two things, really extremist politicians and advisors inside the party and then the pro-Putin part of it, this makes dangerous. And this is why people are worrying that this could change Germany and that this in Magdeburg and Saxony, Anah, could only be the beginning.

Because if we see the numbers now and we have a new poll which came up today, you see that the CDU, the party of the chancellor, is only at 19.5% anymore. And we see the AFD coming up to 29. So there's a big gap. And people are worrying this, what happened now, there could be the beginning, and that is what the AFD hopes, of a blue wave in Germany. And we've got these two other elections coming up in a couple of weeks time in Mecklenburg for Pomergan, which is very AFT's strong.

And then in Berlin, where maybe the social Democrats are a bit stronger. But Paul, I was, this is like a return leg. I was on your podcast last week. And I told you this story about when we were traveling in Mecklenburg for Pomeran, and I met a woman who told me about how she yearned for the old days of the DDR, the old East Communists, East Germany. And she talked about how we had greater freedom. I was absolutely, I don't know if you know the word gobsmacked, but I was absolutely gobsmacked by that. But then listening to a lot of the AFD politicians, there is this kind of nostalgia for communism from a very, very right wing, as you say, borderline fascist party.

There is this nostalgia and we maybe have to explain there is kind of, or there were kind of two parties in the western part of Germany and then in the eastern part. And where you traveled and where the election was, this is a party where you have a lot of nostalgia. You have a lot of people and that's why it works so well for the AFD who would tell you on the street why Russia isn't that bad. we should make peace and we should understand Putin, you know, all the arguments from the pro-Russian side. And you have also a lot of people who would argue, you know, in the past we had a better life. And, I mean, if you see the numbers, it's not true, but it's emotions, its feelings. And the AFD did a very smart election campaign. I mean, you could see Ory Siegmund, you know, would always have these kind of positive emotions.

and would say we have to change. We shouldn't give the money to Ukraine anymore. We don't want migrants anymore. And we have to change the landscape. And this, what he argued, helped him, and he was very different to others inside the IFD. If he would compare it, for example, to Björn Harker, who was the face of the AFD in the East before in Turinger,

he was much more people would say dark and a bit evil. and he wouldn't smile that much, but always Ziegmann showed that you could also win an election with a very, for the people there, positive emotion. One of the things that is also striking is, as you say, they began as an anti-Euro party, and quite a lot of their policies sound like they're not compatible with Schengen. So in practice, quite a lot of what they're pushing for

if they took power would be a real threat to the survival of the. European Union. A Germany that was committed to leaving the Euro, disrupting Schengen, would hit the fundamentals of the European Union. Absolutely. I mean, we could see that there was an interview with Alice Vidal just three weeks ago, and she would argue that the AFD still wants to leave the Eurozone. I mean, that they want to get out of Euro. This was kind of surprising because if you have the numbers the AFD has right now, up to 29 percent, 8 to 10% more than the party of the chancellor, you would think they would go a little bit more

mainstream. So not to fear, not to also tell people, look, you know, if we would take power and not everything would change. And if you talk to experts in Germany, everybody, or like most of them would argue, it would be a big danger for Germany as an expert-oriented nation, you know, to leave the euro. But she still sat that in this interview. And this shows how different this party is these days compared also to Le Pen, compared to other parties in the EU, because Le Pen didn't want to work with the AFD in Brussels.

They would argue this party, the AFD, is too extreme for Le Pen. So I think this shows a lot. Two questions about what happens now. So the numbers have fallen so that to get a majority, the AFD need three of the other MPs to support them. And it's a secret ballot to choose the minister president, which I find very, very strange. So first question, do you think there will be some CDU elected representatives who will back Ulrich Segment to be minister president? And second question, does Friedrich Merz survive this? The head of the AFD and others would go public and say they talk with members of the CDU during these days.

We don't know any names. We don't know if that's true. I personally haven't heard anything about it. I was in Magdeburg. I also talked to many CDU politicians there. I don't know a name. Maybe it's just strategy tactic of Ori Siegmund during these days. We will see.

I mean, it's absolutely possible in the past. past, if we go back 10 years, there were lots of CDU politicians switching to the AFD. So I think there is a possibility. And probably it will also be important to see what happens inside the party, you know, in which direction the CDU goes in Saxony-Anhalt because we see now the now Prime Minister Sven Schultzer will probably resign as ahead of the CDU there. So we'll see what happens. If this will not be successful, they need the BSW, the Bundness Sarah Wagenknecht. It's a party which was funded just before the general elections two years ago. Also very pro-Russian. I mean, Sarah Wangenknech comes from the left wing,

the links party, but now is leaning more towards possible coalitions with the AFD. So the right-wing populist right wing extreme together with left wing populist left wing extreme and this is right now if he wouldn't find MPs from the CDU his only chance but then he has not a big majority so it's a big danger it's a secret election even if you go on in the next months and years we'll be very problematic for him to find majorities second question you ask about Friedrich Meitz and I talked a lot with people here in Berlin lately in the past days. I mean, there is literally nobody who would argue that Friedrich Merritt has a big chance to survive

as the head of the CDU. That's what I'm hearing during these days. There is always a possibility, of course. I mean, he is the elected chancellor. And I mean, if he doesn't want to leave, nobody can really force him. But there is discussions about several prime ministers like

Marcus Suda in Bavaria Henrik Wuss in North Ren-Westphalen Boris Reyn and Hessen these are the major ones We need to get the SPD back in power I hear that from politicians inside the party they're now trying to make a plan

during these days because they are waiting for the next elections in Mecklenburg-Fourthamon in Berlin so if this was the election I think the discussion would be already there, also public, but they don't want to risk the next elections in two weeks. And also for them, yeah, they need a strategy. So still, I would say they don't have it yet.

Paul, how are we meant to understand Merz's failure? Is he the German equivalent of Kier-Stama, that the basic problem is he doesn't know how to communicate? So it's not really about the policies. I mean, of course there's policy problems, he's got a coalition, maybe he's not getting through his radical reforms. But fundamentally, he hasn't captured the imagination of the German people. So maybe the argument is, as it was with Britain, listen, we might as well try again. This guy's useless. We don't know whether the next guy is going to be any better, but he can't be worse. Well, you're absolutely right that people would criticize his communication skills just before the election in Magdeburg.

And he would say, they are wudguerger. People didn't understand what he was doing there. They didn't want him to campaign. Alistair, what is a Voodburger? A Voodberger. We're talking about angry people. Angry people, yeah, sorry. Should have translated that.

Angry citizens. So this is his equivalence of Hillary Clinton calling Trump voters deplorables or something. Yeah, I mean, people are really upset about that, yeah. And this happens. And people would criticize him, you know, he comes back from holidays and not really a strategy, what to do next. Now, after the elections, you could see him inside the Conrad Aranauer house. quarters of the party. And, you know, he would describe the situation as it is, but there's no plan. So people are like, okay, but you're the head of the CDU, you're the chancellor. You know,

what should we do now? We want answers from you, you know. And it's not only inside his party, if you talk to people inside the SPD. They're fed up with him because they feel like, you know, we can't really govern with this chancellor. They've been criticizing him a lot. And you hear that from every side. But I wouldn't say it's only communications. I mean, it's not only what he says publicly, but it's also internally.

He is not what Angela Merkel would do. She would be on the phone with all the people inside the party all the time. She would find, you know, to try to find a way. and try to find a strategy. And for Friedrich Meertz, people say, you know, he is not the right man at the right time. Paul, we've had Gerald Knauss on the podcast a couple of times, who's the immigration researcher and real campaigner. And he's always been of the view that the political establishment has to face up to the fact

that this is an anti-constitutional party. They seem scared to make that case. Is that debate as alive in Germany as Garral would like it to be? Or now that in one part of Germany they're over 40%, does that become impossible to start to argue that they can be tackled, as it were, through the courts? Well, it's very hard now. If you have a party, you know, with 40, 34%, I don't see it. I think the problem is that politicians from the CDU and the SPD and the Greens would always argue how dangerous the AFD is, but wouldn't do anything because they were scared. They were like, okay, you know, if we go to the court, if we start in so-called AFD verbots-verfahn in German.

AFD ban. Yeah, if you're trying to ban this party, that the AFD would only go stronger. But the problem is also during this campaign, so you would argue on the one side, you know, this party is so dangerous. And, you know, it's back to 1933 and look at the people inside the party. party. So there's more and more people arguing, okay, but if you say they're so dangerous, why is there, why, why you're not trying to ban them? So it's a, at the logical question, you know, at the end, and I don't see it to happen. I mean, imagine, you know, on the streets, if you, if you have a party, was up to 29, 30 percent in whole Germany. On the other hand, if you could also

You know, it shouldn't matter if they have 30 or 10%, right? There are two things that confuse me about the AFD. One is that Alice Vidal is a great expert on China, lived in China, speaks Chinese, did her doctorate on China. But she doesn't talk about the second China shock. She doesn't really take an interest in probably the most devastating thing in German politics, which is the impacts of Chinese industrial policy on Germany. And the second thing is, I don't understand the AFD's complete refusal to enter into coalitions and what their long-term strategy is here.

They're never going to get more than 50% of the vote. So how can they have a political strategy of no coalition? Yeah, the China shock to zero is a very interesting question. And it's not only that she's not criticizing China, you could see her joining events in the Chinese embassy. you could also see her defending Chinese policy. If people discuss with her, she would always argue we need to have good ties to everybody, to the U.S., to Russia, to China. And, you know, if we don't criticize them that much, we can have a bigger business.

You know, we can have cheap gas and oil again. You know, we could export in a much better way with China. and she would go on with a Germany first policy. But at the same time, I mean, this is very interesting for you as listeners, because if you see that they also try to have good ties with Donald Trump and Elon Musk, and Elon Musk congratulated Ulrich Siegmund and Donald Trump showed the statistics from Magdeburg, so it can't really work with all of them, right? And the second about coalitions, there was different strategies in the past.

And now, I think, they just want to be as big as possible. You could also see experts arguing in the past five, ten years. There's no way the AFD would reach 25%. Then they argued there's no way they could reach 30 because, you know, this is impossible. So the RFD would argue if it goes on like this in Germany with economy, migration, and also I have to say, you know, I travel a lot in Saxony, Arnold. It's a lot about Ukraine and Ukraine help and Russia. You know, we talk about reforms in Germany and at the same time. We give a lot of money to Ukraine.

So people would argue how can that be? Is it fair? Is it not fair? So there's big topics. And yeah, so they think they can get like way higher than 30%, maybe 35, maybe higher. You know, that's their strategy. And then, and I think that's still the case, they want to destroy the CDU. You know, they want to have maybe a small CDU with people who would do a coalition with them.

or, you know, they would change the whole party and they would more go into the direction of the AFD. I think that's their strategy. You did a two-part documentary about Saxony Hanel. You did something very interesting because often people say politicians don't listen to the people and you set yourself up in this town square with a table and just a couple of chairs

and you just got people to come and talk to you. If you had to boil down, and I was struck actually by the very, very kind of varied things, that they were saying, but if you had to boil down what you heard from the people on that square in Saxony Anhal, what's there, what is the big thing that kind of unites somebody's making them turn towards the AFD? The big thing is, we are fed up what we've seen in the past years from the CDU and the SPD. There was many people telling me, you know, during the last elections, I gave my last vote to Friedrich Meertz. Actually, it's interesting, Friedrich Meertz,

People liked him a lot when he was in opposition. You know, like he liked him a lot as somebody, you know, we have to change Germany, we have to be reforms, have to be tough in migration. But they're disappointed. And now they're like, okay, you know, we tried everything. We tried Merritts. We tried Olaf Schultz before, you know, we voted for Angela Merkel. But we are fed up.

We want something else. We don't really believe that the AFD will change or make our... our lives better, but now it's a time for something else. And that's what I heard a lot. And they don't care that Vladimir Putin and Donald Trump are sitting there rubbing their hands at it. No, and this struck me a lot. I mean, I'm a war and crisis reporter and I travel a lot to Ukraine and, you know, I saw the war from the front line. And no, people would argue there, there's different arguments. They would say, look, you know, we, know we know who the Russians are. They were here before. So we don't want to have the war with them.

We are afraid of the Russians. This is one argument I would always hear. The second is why do we have to pay so much money for Ukraine? We don't understand if at the same time our budget is cut. This is not fair and we have to stop that. And the third thing is, and also I mean the AFD, there's a lot of propaganda in this direction is, you know, if we have good relations with Russia, our economy, you know, will work much better than now, I mean, talking about gas. Well, Powell, thank you so much. And we'll maybe talk to you again, because this is a long-running thing. We'll maybe keep in touch as these other lender election come through. Thank you so much for your time. Thank you so much for having me. And it was also great to have you on our podcast.

Thank you, pal. Bye-bye. So, Rory, before we go to the break, I know how you love to do a plug. I'm going to do a plug today, but it's a plug with a difference. As you know, I have a book coming out on October the 22nd, and it is going to be announced to the world on Friday. The title of the book. The title of the book. So you're not going to tell us now. Well, you know, so still pretending. But what we're doing, if people go to the episode description, they will see there is a very exciting competition there. If you can guess the one word title, of my book. Now, the publishers have got this idea. We give you a signed copy. I'm going to do so much better than that. We'll decide when we go. But it's time. Every reply will be time stamped. And because of that, we'll know when the first one comes in, because I'm incredibly generous, there'll be more than one. Get something out of this. So one word, like might I suggest, Middleland by Rory Stewart, Vimar that we talked about recently. So there's one word. Shacuze? Does that count us two words? I'm going for two words with that with the apostrophe over there.

But breads by Paul Mason, your book, which I've just been reading. So one word, and it will be out on October 22nd. We're also going to be doing a mini-series on it. So we're very excited about that. Well, then, getting a book written. I mean, that's one of the things I've noticed with a podcast is it's quite a full finding of time to write a book. Yeah, well, I did it over the summer, on the move throughout Europe.

But anyway, I'm very excited about it. I think it's going to be good. I think it's really interesting. And I think I'm going to get to interview you a bit. Apparently you are. Yeah, on the series. Looking forward to it very much. Yeah.

And think about Alistair. I mean, could this be about football? Could this be about dogs? Could this be about politics? You know, there's a hell of a lot of directions you could go without one word. Yeah. And by the way, I'm ready for the insults. I got one last night, an event I was doing.

And somebody came up and said, I've got it. It's liar. Fine. So you can do that one. Do whatever you want. Burnley. Could be Burnley. Could be Blair.

Could be lots of things. Could be trees. Yeah. See? Yeah. So this book, one word. So to enter, go to the link in the episode, description you've got till midnight Thursday to get your guesses in thank you very much take a break

this family is on the brink of civil war on september 18th mobland the hit original series is back on paramount plus we are the herigans don't know than yet and googlelish from the underworld of guy richie do you want to step up the ladder i won't come up dead starring tom hardy pierce brosden and helen Miran. Do I have to do everything myself? You want to want! I'll give you a ball. New season hits September 18th on Paramount Plus. Welcome back to the rest of the policies. With me, Alistair Campbell. And with me, Rory Stewart. Now, Alastair, firstly, thank you very, very much for Powell and the AFD.

I want to move us, though, on to reform in Britain. And obviously, we'll have a chance to talk about whether reform is the AFD or not. But let's start with this. I have become, as you keep mocking me, totally obsessed. Obsessed with this amazing documentary. So a huge shout-out, I mean, for anybody listening who wants to be a journalist, this is an unbelievable thing. An undercover reporter spent nearly 12 months pretending to be the son of an American billionaire from Wyoming and going to meetings with more and more senior reform figures in order to see if they would be willing basically to take money, illegal money from an American

donor. You're not supposed to take money from American data. And it's a hell of a thing. And actually, at some point, I'd love to have more of a chat with him, even if we don't do it on the show, because the guy had to change his credit card, his social media account, his name. And he must have been terrified going into these meetings in Britain that somebody would know him under his real name and come up to him and stop him. Anyway, he pulled it off. But the thing that's frustrating me is that when we did our live show, I asked for a show of hands of how many people that actually watched the documentary. This is the weekend at the festival hall.

And look, our live show audience are like the most motivated I would have thought people to get into politics as kind of thing. You just thought so. And barely 10% of them have watched it. And that is a big problem. They were aware of it, though. They were aware of it. They were aware of the story.

They're aware of it. But I think one of the problems is that you only see why it's so killing for reform when you watch the full half an hour, if you just pull out as, you know, there are questions were raised about whether a permissible US donor could finance 33,000 pounds of polling, it sounds very minor. The real story is what it shows about reform, and in particular, what it shows about its moral and intellectual centre. Lack of. Yeah. So the moral and intellectual center, and I think this winds you up less than it does me because you despair of reform so much. You're not even interested in this problem. I'm very interested in it. But, but,

James Orr... You say I have no morals? No, no. I'm just saying that you basically have written them off so much. You can hardly be bothered to even look into it. That's not true. Anyway, I might... Just because I haven't watched it.

I've watched it twice. You've watched it eight times. The reason I'm so wound up is this guy James Orr, he was somebody who represented people who want to say that the far right is not a kind of dangerous populist movement, but instead it's morally serious, it's Christian, it's rejecting these. corrupt elites. And there are lots of, particularly young men, getting behind that story. You'll see them at Cambridge University. You'll see them, unfortunately, in churches around the country. They're people who think that they're not just unpleasant, racist people, that they're people

who are standing up for Christianity, morality, virtue, seriousness. And here is this guy James Orr, who is a Cambridge professor who got this extraordinary profile on the Financial Times with a glamorous picture of them on the front cover, who is able to talk about Hegel, who reaches out to J.D. Vance. And it's a reminder that when these parties come, and this has been true for right-wing parties throughout history, they often have these figures at the fringes who give a sense of real kind of intellectual seriousness and respectability that this man is meant to be austere, concerned with kind of truth, justice in the British way. Professor of ethics and divinity.

Yeah, and that's why when you see him sitting in his fancy suit with his hair swished back, hitting the cocktails, talking about how he doesn't care about the electoral commission, he's going to get around the law, he's going to go on signals so people can't see his things, against transparency, against truth, against being honest with the British public or even his own boss, deliberately circumventing the law in order to lie to the British people and promote his party, look at that and see the moral quality of this man and see the moral quality of all these people. You cannot allow Danny Kruger, James or Jady Vance to present themselves as great moral examples. They are revolting human beings who are using their ability to talk about Hegel to endorse

very dangerous, destructive, anti-democratic politics which is corrupt. your point about people not knowing unless they really immerse themselves in it. And I think you're right about that. Because what happens is it, you know, the documentary explodes. You've got lots and lots of coverage. And within 24 hours, it was Nigel Farage has denied any wrongdoing. You know, focus on the alleged wrongdoing, not what he's saying about it. And then, of course, there was their conference going on and what have you.

But last night, Rory, we're going to talk about Ukraine and Q&A this week. Last night I was doing this event with Luke Harding, who's just written this book about Ukraine. and it's called betrayal. It's the betrayal of Trump and Putin, but also he's got a very big section on Nathan Gill and on the fact that the Russians essentially turned Nathan Gill into an agent and he's now serving 10 years in jail. Former colleague of Nigel Farage in the European Parliament. Very leading figure, leader of the party in Wales. We had about 350 people in the King's place. I asked for a show of hands of these people who'd paid money to come and hear somebody talk about a book about Russia and Ukraine, who had heard of Nathan Gill.

It was about a third of the hands. Who has not heard of Nathan Gill? It was two thirds. And I said, who has heard of perfumo? Every single hand went up. Nathan Gill is serving a jail sentence as an elected British politician for helping Russia in the war against Ukraine and taking money. And this very edgy.

So what, and that's down to the. immediate. They covered it as a one-day wonder. There's been such a degradation of our politics that we've normalized bad behavior so, so much, and we've become so polarised. So I was talking to a relative who is sympathetic towards reform, whose response was, as you, guess what the defense was when I forced them to watch this documentary? They all do it. Yeah, exactly. All the politicians do it. And the great one was, and of course they go after reform much more than they would after a mainstream. Which is bullshit. I mean, what damage did Keir Stammer get for just taking a pair of glasses? Exactly. Five million quid. We don't even talk about five million quid anymore. You've

totally got it. They're all up to it. So what is it that we see in this documentary? What we see is that it shows something deep about the values of this man, James. And I think actually the values of Danny Kruger, too, who incidentally, while posing as the great Christian moral figure, refused to condemn his colleagues when they lied about Kemi Bade Nock during the last. He just wouldn't come out and say that the whole story that she had been... White Lives Don't Matter. Yeah, I thought White Lives Don't Matter. And he totally refused to clarify, condemn, or doing anything.

In this case, what's wrong with what happened? What's wrong with what happened is this. Reform commissioned a poll, a guy called Dan Dukes, commissioned a poll, and the point of the poll for them is to put it on the front page, the Telegraph and other newspapers, showing that people are supporting reform at a critical moment. before elections. So it's really important part of their PR strategy. They then arrange for the poll to be paid for by this American donor from an American company. In order to do so, we have them admitting that this isn't legal. We have them going on to signal because they want

to conceal any chance of anybody seeing him. We have him saying that the electoral commission is useless and are never going to catch them. So what does this represent? It represents complete lack of transparency, not being honest with the British people, deceiving the British people, deceiving the electoral commission, breaking the law. And then this incredible kind of Henry II Beckett defense, which is, oh, Nigel doesn't want to know about it. And the undercover journalist keeps saying, does, does Nigel know about it if I meet him if my dad meets him? Well, I don't know about the details. But of course, you know, he knows. And they start inviting the guy to donor conferences.

And then he says, this is the killouts. He says it's explicitly because we cannot get donations from UK domiciled donors. But also, there is a meet, one of the key moments in the film is where he does meet Nigel Farage during the Clacton by-election. So there's an election that's been called because of this five million donation from a Thailand crypto billionaire. He's only having that election allegedly to allow the Clacton people to be his jury rather than a court where it should be. And Nigel Farage is clearly aware because he says, boom. it worked for a pretty small investment, okay? And then goes on television, our television, and says, I wasn't really listening. Two questions about judgment. Imagine if any other politician

had done that. Well, apart from the wrongdoing, simply a question of political judgment. This is my election, which was dominated by the news or the allegation that posh George Cotterrell had illegally siphoned money through his mother to pay for us, which they were denying. And in the middle of that very by-election, while that story's breaking, the journalist from this amazing production company verbatim must have been thinking, what we're never going to be able to get our meeting now, given that they're already mad and scummel. He's prepared to sit down with someone who says, let me just clarify, this is my dad's American money, siphoned through me, his relative to give to you. Is that okay with you? And by the way, they've since then, so when reform now say there'll be an investigation, so Dan Jukes and James Orr get suspended pending a full of full. inquiry, investigation, blah, blah, blah. As far as I understand it, listening to all the

blather they've come out with as they keep changing their line, the investigation is going effectively to be into the TV program, and they're talking about it being entrapment. Okay. Now, the first thing is, it is legitimate under the code of offcom and everybody else to expose wrongdoing using subterfuge. You should give up if you don't find it, but clearly from the word go, given that they're saying in interviews with him being secretly recorded through his buttonhole, they're admitting that they want to try to sort of circumnavigate, circumvent the law. Because they can't get UK domicile people. And then the second thing that I think is really important.

And you know, James Johnson, who's polling we used, we used his poll before the last election. Their big line now is that this poll was not, quote, commissioned by them. Well, who did commission it? Because James Johnson, he's also on camera, essentially saying that they're using this device to pay him. So the poll is done, commissioned, we're going to get this guy to pay you for it. Now, that is, I've spoken to somebody who knows electoral law inside out, who says that if it is the case that Orr and Dukes have organized for this poll, without the treasurer of the party knowing where that money is coming from, they are, potentially in breach of the law. Let me just tell you about the criminal offences that they might, the police might have to consider. The main one is entering into or furthering an arrangement

which facilitates or is likely to facilitate the making of donations by an impermissible donor. Now, you've seen the film 27,000 times, Roy. Do you think that might fall into that category? Look, I would certainly say as a legal expert that it certainly gives that. It certainly gives impression. Okay. So the second Section 61 offence of the P-P-E-R-A, which is the act that we're talking about, is a person deceiving their treasurer about a donation. So the treasurer will have to be called to give evidence, I'd of thought, which can include an official not telling the treasurer about a donation with intent to deceive. So that means unless we discover that James or Dan Jukes and Nigel Farage have told the treasurer about this impermissible

donation. And they have committed to criminal effects. Just to go back to the basics and what the barrister explains very well in this documentary that I'm endlessly promoting is, is what's the point of all this? And let's just step away from the law back to the purpose of this. The whole point of our electoral laws is to prevent foreign citizens from funding British parties. And this entire arrangement is in a way to get an American billionaire from Wyoming purportedly to support reform, because reform can't get money out of UK domiciled donors. So that's all we have to remember, that the whole law was written for that purpose. We believe that British politics should be funded by UK domiciled donors for a good reason,

because we don't want Russians giving money, Chinese giving money, or even far-right donors from Wyoming supporting our parties. And that would be normal in any country, right? Britain's not unusual. You can't do it in the States. Imagine the outrage in the States if it turned out that some British woke left-wing donor was funding the Democratic Party in the United States. It's completely illegal.

People would go to jail. Look, I'm not a legal expert, but I have studied this particular bit of the law, and it's very difficult to believe watching that documentary that these people have not broken certainly the spirit of the law. And if people have broken the law, then people should, in my opinion, go to jail. Let's then move on to two other things which get coverage, but which aren't made part of the story. So in the reform conference, a activist stood up and started asking questions about corruption and Farage. And climate.

And climate. She was grabbed by the hair, half pulled on the ground, appears to have been hit with a stick and dragged out of this thing. And what are the responses you get? Lee Anderson says, we'll have a whip around for a new stick. Robert Jenrick says, yeah, what is it to see here, basically? Yeah. And so there is a coarsening here. I mean, this is why I want to go to the point of the sort of moral sensibility. And maybe this is a transition back to the AFD. What we're trying to say about these parties is something that's quite difficult to notice, which is they are getting rid of norms that we took for granted. Assaulting a woman in a conference in that way would have been five years ago. unbelievably outrageous, and I think every party leader would have come out and condemned it. This sort of incredible corruption, there would have been an immediate series of resignations.

And this is what I think the new world is that we've seen just since the podcast started. I mean, we just did this live show, and we're talking about the fact we've been going for four years. The transition from the world that we came into, which was the world of Sanamarin, of Jacinta, and Justin Trudeau, Macron's second election into this world is a world where, above all, with Trump. But actually, it's the story of the AFD and it's the story of Le Pen and it's the story of Reform 2. It's a story about the fact that things we took for granted, norms, values, democratic behavior are all going out the window. And our politics is becoming more violent, less honest, more polarized. coarser and more brutal all the time.

Well, Trump is a big driver of that. And as Paul said in the first half, you know, Trump posted. I mean, it's like him sort of deciding to post about the West Midlands metro mayor authority elections. You know, he's posted about that. Why? Because the far right is one. It's part of their national security strategy to support parties of the far right. They actually think reform are not far right enough now, which is why Musk is backing Rupert

Rupert Lowe. But my sense is I'm not a lawyer, but I know people who are, by trying to get round a law which bans these foreign donations, impermissible donors, that in itself is breaking the law. And that I think is where this will go to. Final one for me. The thing that worried me most of all is the reform chair saying that the potential Labour candidate to replace Kiyosl who is now announcing he's stepping down, it's going to be a by-election. Zia Yusuf. Yeah, the questions should be raised because she wasn't born in Britain.

She is a British citizen. She's also a brilliant council leader, let me tell you. Regardless of how brilliant she is. But she is. What are they saying? What are they saying that a British citizen isn't a British citizen because they weren't born in Britain? I wasn't born in Britain. Boris Johnson was born in Britain.

I was born in Hong Kong, right? So this is the beginning of something that is unbelievable. And this connects the AFD, where they're talking about throwing out German citizens who've broken the law or remigration or all this sort of stuff. If we no longer have an idea of equal citizenship, and presumably Zio Yusuf has less of a problem with the fact that I wasn't born in Britain than he has with the fact that a Somali wasn't born in Britain. So that maybe is a more fundamental norm, because in that is citizenship, equality, justice and everything that we stand for as a society. you get to choose who is and isn't British, not based on whether or not they have a British passport, but based presumably in this case on their skin colour. I think the selection is happening in the next 48 hours, so this may be out of date.

But just to say something about Segal Abdul Ali, who's the council leader, I've known her and her family for 30 years. She is absolutely brilliant. Following Georgia Gould as council leader was a very, very tough act to follow, but she's really, really good and would be a terrific MP. But I think you're absolutely right. did. It was he posted a picture. She wears a headscarf. She is a Muslim and basically said she's not born in Britain and therefore she shouldn't be replacing Kirstama. It's straightforward racism, which he probably thinks he gets away with more than maybe Farage or Kruger or ore. Which he gets away because he's a Sri Lanka Muslim. Correct. Yeah. Correct. The other thing,

it just shows you, we talk about normalization. The other thing that's been big on the news this week, of course, are these thugs. People who say, that women shouldn't be allowed to wear a burqa, dressing up in balaclavas, dressed in black, trying to shut down two ports. These would be the same people who would celebrate the fact that just stop oil people, who did similar things, are now serving jail sentences. And again, the media are very, very happy to say the AFD are hard right. They call these people protesters.

They are hard right. Most of them, with criminal convictions, a lot of domestic violence, a lot of them, and they take their balaclavas. off, let's see all their faces, and let's see how many of them already got convictions, and we talked about them as anti-migration protesters. I suspect that a lot of them would be pretty experienced football thugs who just want to bundle, and you just want to sort of play into this Tommy Robinson sort of fascist stuff. And, you know, you talk about joining the dots, that is what we have to be much more open about. They are not protesters. They are

far-right thugs who are trying to stop any sort of. of debate around this other than the one they want, which is all immigrants are bad. Let's finish you on Germany, which we started on and which you think about a lot. The AFD won the election. So that represents a far-right party with fascist associations getting well into the 40s percent in this election. We've got a very, very weak chancellor now in Germany, who the person with the journalists who were interviewing was saying maybe on their way out.

We've got a whole conversation about Ukraine. and the future of the European Union and the middle powers. How do we put that all together? Are you worried about Germany? Am I overdoing it in saying that this is something we need to worry about, not just ideologically or for Germany, but actually for the whole of Europe? Look, if you now have, as Powell was saying, not long ago, people were saying, well, listen, don't worry about the AFD.

Yeah, they're a bit of an irritant. They're a bit of a nightmare, but they're never going to get power. And look, Saxony Halt is the oldest. It's probably the most right wing already of all the 16 lender. So I think maybe a better, when we see the one in Mecklenburg-Fourn, but I suspect what will happen is that, you know, they will get momentum out of this. And the other thing we should worry about,

if you remember the Le Pen trying to become president of France, she's been beaten most times because in the second round, people have come out to stop her. This election in Saxony-Han-Halt had the highest, turnout there has been in a regional election for a very long time. It's almost 80%. And the people who were coming out to vote for the first time, including a lot of young people, massive numbers of blue collar workers, were coming out and saying, I've never voted before, I'm voting with the AFD. And it's the point that Paul made. It's not that they necessarily

know or much care what they stand for. They're just to fed up with the other two parties. And of course, one of the reasons they're fed up with the other two parties is because this is the electoral system they've got is that they had to build a coalition. One of the reasons Mertz can't get the reforms through that he promised is because he's got the social democrats saying, no, we don't want that. They're having to do deals all the time. So look, I think it is deeply worrying. I think it's deeply worrying that the polls suggest, I still think LePedon and Bardell are beatable, but the polls suggest they are in a very, very strong position, because we don't yet know who they would face, who replaces Macron for the centre, who stands on the left, we don't know yet, we know

some of the ones who will definitely start, but we don't know the whole picture. If you have a France that goes to the hard right, we've already got Maloney who, okay, Maloney is trimmed quite a lot, but would the French trim in the same way? Not so sure. And as Powell said, the AFD are even further to the right of Le Pen. And the other big worry I have, because I remain convinced that even despite all this, in fact, partly because of this hard right populism in Europe, we need to get Britain back. And of course, that argument becomes a lot harder if you've got Le Pen and you've got vital sort of, you know, taking power there. So I think we should be worried. And one of the terrifying things in Paul's documentary was the extent to which people just, they just ran this line the

whole time. This is not our war. This is not our war. Well, you might not think it is, but it could quite easily become yours. And that's why we have to understand what Ukraine are doing, is standing up for all of us and that's what we'll talk about in question time this family is on the brink of civil war on September 18th Mobland the hit original series is back on Paramount Plus

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