The Rewatchables - ‘25th Hour’ With Bill Simmons and Wesley Morris

Episode Date: July 16, 2020

The Ringer’s Bill Simmons is joined by Wesley Morris of The New York Times to spend their last day together watching Spike Lee’s 2002 film, ‘25th Hour,’ starring Edward Norton, Philip Seymour Hoffman, and Rosario Dawson. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

The rewatchables is brought to you by the Ringer podcast network, where you can find our newest podcast, the Cam Chronicles, six-part series about Cam Newton. You can find newer podcasts like the Baccar Sellers podcast, like Higher Learning. We have a couple new announcements. Stay tuned on the Ringer announcement front because there's a couple big podcast announcements brewing. We also brought TV concierge back if you want to hear little mini reviews of TV shows. That's exclusive on Spotify. coming up, you're a New Yorker. You've got New York in your bones.

25th hour is next. Montgomery Brogan is about to discover. He's going to prison for seven years. If he can change his whole life in one day. Critics are hailing 25th hour as extraordinary, remarkable. A brilliant performance by Edward Norton in a stunning ensemble. This will be the best night in my life. Edward Norton, Philip Seymour Hoffman, Barry Pepper, Rosario Dawson,

Anna Pacquin, Brian Cox, in a Spike Lee, Joint. 25th hour, certainly one of the finest films of the year. Rated R. Now playing in New York and L.A. All right. My old friend Wesley Morris is here. He is one of the world's preeminent Spike Lee.

Spikeophiles. What do you, what do you say? Spikeophiles? Lee maniac. Lea maniac, whatever. Whatever you are, you're that. Maniac Lee? I don't know.

I got to think about that. Somehow I like this movie more than you. 25th hour. It came out in 2002. It was shut out from every major award possible, even nominations, which we'll talk about a little bit. If you're talking about what's age the best, this movie has aged the best in a lot of different ways.

And I honestly feel like this is one of the best movies of the last 20 years for me. I think it is Spike Lee's not his most important movie. Maybe not even his best movie, but the most efficiently well done. and well-crafted, just satisfying movie for me that he's made. You do not like it as much as me, although you do respect it.

Make the case against this being one of the best Spikely movies. Hmm. I have to say, and this is a very important... I don't know. Wait, first of all, it's just nice to see you.

Hello. It's nice to see you as well. Second, what I'll say is I realize watching this again because I knew I was talking to you, I did not feel anything for these people. I don't know how, there's no other way to put it. They did not, and this is sometimes a Spike Lee problem,

because Spike Lee is frequently interested in characters as archetypes and not as characters. But this is a movie where the characters aren't archetypes, their characters, and nothing happened for me. And I think there is one extraordinary sequence in this movie and I think that that was a place where I was trying to make this investment in people or to figure out what my relationship

was going to be to them for the remaining like 40 minutes. The great sequence is the nightclub sequence, of course. And, you know, the movie is rewatchable. I think part of the thing that makes it so great is Rodrigo Preeto's cinematography. They had never worked together before, as far as I know. Rodrigo Prieto, one of our great cinematographers, has shot the last handful of Martin Scorsese movies,

or has been in the mix for the last handful of those. He did the Irishman, for instance, did Wolfo Wall Street. And the score by Terrence Blanchard, Spike Lee score. My favorite music and a Spike Lee movie. You're just doing all, what's age the best things now? I'm just setting up, like, that despite these things,

I feel like there is a question of whether this movie really should just be about the Edward Norton character or whether we should spend even more, whether this movie should be three hours and it should be like an old Italian movie about three people who are very close and are kind of estranged and they're coming together for what is essentially a funeral, right? And I just felt like I wanted more, more of maybe the Philip Seymour Hoffman character and less of the Edward Norton character. Well, if they make this movie now, it's probably a 10-episode series. And you would get all that in spades and you would get all the other stuff in that.

So here's the thing. Okay. I think one of the reasons I've become so attached to this movie over the years is because I like the actors so much. that's one piece. I just like spending time with all of the actors that he picked in this. And I care more about the actors almost than the characters a lot of ways. But the big thing for me is this movie in the context of 9-11 and how awkward that's been

over the last 20 years. And the ironic thing about this movie is it wasn't intended to be a 9-11 movie. It comes off the David Benioff book that was written before 9-11. they're doing pre-production for the movie when 9-11 happens. And they figure out a couple ways to tweak it to reflect that this movie is about characters in 2002, New York. A city that at that point is trying to rally that has taken a huge hit that's been broken in a lot of different ways

but has the resolve and hasn't given up. This could go so badly in the wrong hands. You know, you could have the five, the five separate shots of where the Twin Towers used to be, you could have the people awkwardly shoe hoarding the 9-11. They really only do it a couple times. They do in the opening credits. It's powerful.

There's that amazing scene, which we'll talk about in a little bit, with Pepper and Hoffman in Pepper's apartment looking over ground zero. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. And then in the flashback scene near the end, all of a sudden there's flags. And it's the direct contrast to his famous bathroom monologue in this

where he basically attacks every part of New York. City but then blames himself. But the way they kind of make 9-11 a character without rimming 9-11 down your throat. And it's just this thing that's part of this whole story and this time and the redemption

piece. It's really the only movie that fully figured it out. And the only other one I can really think of is Fahrenheit 9-1-1 when they have and that's a documentary. But when they have that whole 9-11 scene, it was so powerful in the theater. Yes. Yes. And I felt the same way when I saw this movie,

In 2002, December, and you see that ground zero scene, and 9-11 was still so fresh and the wound was so raw, it was really jarring. And I think that's why I have such an intense relationship with this movie. It was when I first saw it. And how that's evolved since. And 9-11 has faded in some ways. And in other ways, it's just as powerful. But you're also talking about it's now been 19 years.

you're talking people 25 and under have no recollection of what it was like when it actually happened. And I think this is one of the few movies that kind of brings me back to it. The ambient presence of 9-11 in this movie, I mean, just to be extra clear, I don't know if we said this, 2002.

Like, I mean, December of 2002, so we were still very much psychically. I don't even think we were at a point where it was, we were still in the, is it okay to laugh? And that was, that was, that was, you know, 14 months later, 15 months later. And also, New York, you know, at that point,

most, either you live there or you at least went there once in the last year. If you're anywhere near there, you knew somewhere, whatever. And the hangover of it was just so intense and so omnipresent that it would have been impossible to make a movie set in New York in 2002 without addressing it in some way, especially a movie that's as intense than New York is this. And then you have Spike, who New York is the character in most of his films.

Yes. You know, he has the most intense relationship with New York out of just about anybody. Yeah. And I think that there, I think that like there's a kind of restraint happening in this movie that I both respect. I mean, Spike Lee,

one of my favorite versions of Spike Lee is the unrestrained version. Right, right. And I mean, that can go all kinds of directions too. There was something about him, like doing, being on his, best behavior that I found fascinating but underwhelming at the same time.

And I was hoping that going back and watching this for a third time, because I saw it twice when it came out, mostly because, I mean, I was going to write something about it and I wanted to see it again. And I tried to see all his movies twice just because, you know, he gives you more than you can handle in one sitting. Typically, he's one of those filmmakers. And I don't know.

I just, I think here's a way that I've been thinking about 25th hour all these years. I think it is on, it is the B side to clockers. I think, I mean, clockers for me, clockers for me might be my 25th hour. It's not Spike Lee's best movie. It might not even be my favorite Spike Lee movie. But it is the movie that Spike Lee, he took a lot of chances and nearly every one of them worked.

I mean, that movie is such a mix of angers. It is an angry movie that has the, like, it has one of the great final shots of any American movie that I've ever seen. Do you remember what it is? No, but I, I mean, I remember seeing the movie. I don't explain the final shot, though,

because it's not going to mind. The final shot, I mean, I won't even ruin the movie, by telling you what the final shot is. The final shot is of Mackay Fyfer on a train out west. And it is this guy who has been living in, you know, drug dealing in, you know,

the New York housing, public housing system on a train out west. And it is the most optimistic moving. I mean, it's almost kind of like, I mean, it's not a fantasy, but I mean, the way Spike Lee does it,

it is a real argument for hope and it's how he gets on the train that is, you know, this would be ruining the movie, which I won't do for anybody who should see Spike Lee's clockers. But this 25th hour feels to me like the,

like a cousin to that movie with respect to this idea of redemption and crime and, and punishment in some ways. But it's interesting. I didn't like clockers nearly as much as 25th hour. And I think that's one of the things

that has made Spike Lee so memorable over the last 30 plus years. Yeah. With most directors, we're all going to kind of agree on some order with them. If you're going to be like, all right,

where are their top six films? We're probably going to have four or five of the same top six. And Spike. Oh, Spike, yeah. Spike's one of those guys. Everybody's top six might have, I think do the right thing would be in everybody's list. Everybody would have do the right thing.

I think the other five could be depending on the person and how those movies hit them when they saw them. It could change depending on the person. Because I think 25th hour, one of the things I love about is he didn't write it. And I wish he had done that more. We're just like, hey, I'm going to take somebody else's script. and I'm just going to make a cool movie because there's some visual touches in this. I always thought that my legacy with Spike

is always going to be his knack for specific scenes, how things looked, how powerful he could use kind of the background of things and whatever performance he's trying to get out of the characters and how the collage of what he was trying to do, I always cared way more about that than like the dialogue that he was writing

whereas some other people love the dialogue the most but I just think he has such an eye for shit and 25th hour is just him at the peak of his powers with that things just look cool and distinct

and he's doing tricks and even when the famous bathroom thing the bathroom monologue he unleashes the spike that you like that's like completely out of control spike for five minutes. The montage, and there's a lot of tie-in to do the right thing in that piece. But I don't know.

I just think he's really talented. I felt the same way watching The Five Bloods where you get frustrated by certain things. And then there's other things where you're like, only Spike would do that. Only Spike would have played that this way. Yeah. I mean, the Five Bloods is an interesting thing. I mean, that is to me him just out of control in some ways. I agree.

And I think that, you know, your point about who's writing the movie is really important because I think that when someone else is, when he's either working with someone else, and I don't always know that that's the best idea either. It's fun to mix it up. Yeah. And I think that which movies work based on who did the script is really interesting. I also think that in some ways for him, the more person, the movie, and I mean the more like explicitly personal the movie, with his non-documentary work,

the stronger the movie is. I mean, I'm thinking about, you know, Crooklyn, for instance, is a really atmospheric impressionistic movie that has all these sort of metaphysical and supernatural elements. And it's so much from the point of view of this girl, but also in some ways the girl is Spike Lee and a lot of Zelda. Zelda, I think her name is Zelda Harris. She's Spike Lee. And she's just wonderful. And like watching this director sort of make himself vulnerable to his memories and his

childhood, like the way that that brings this side of him out that wasn't readily apparent. But I mean, again, that's a movie that he co-wrote, I believe, with this, with with Joie and Cinque, I believe. I don't know. I think that he is, he's so open to so many experiences and part of what makes 25th hour,

at least fascinating if it doesn't work for you, it's that he is turning over an entire narrative to three white people. And thinking about, like going into parts of New York that he doesn't normally go into. looking at lives that he hadn't previously looked at in a meaningful way, or where those people would have been counterpoints to this larger narrative

the way that they would be in something like jungle fever. So all that stuff I really liked. Well, he did it. I was going to say, Inside Man, four years later was another one that he used somebody else's script. And that's also a really interesting Spike Lee movie that feels slightly different than all the other Spike Lee movies. That's in the top five. That would be, like, if I picked six movies,

that would, inside man, would be up there. Me too. I interrupted you. You were about to do a big butt. Well, it's just, well, the butt is pretty simple. I'm just going back to this idea that, like, I can't. My thing is, now, and I'm supposed to say, like, in 2002, if you were to ask me to make a list of my five favorite actors,

Edward Norton would be on that list. And in 2002, well, in 2002, if you would ask me, who do I think is going to be on my favorite actors list in like three years, it'd be Philip Seymour Hoffman. Like, because he, I mean, at that point, he had made that really bad Joel Schumacher, RIP Joel Schumacher movie,

flawless with De Niro, do you remember that? Where De Niro has had a stroke. He's a cop who had a stroke. And he'd be taken care of by Philip Seymour Hoffman, who's... That movie's bad. It's very bad. Well, so he...

So I have this actually, I had this written down. From 99 on, he does Magnolia, which he's awesome in. Yeah. Talented Mr. Ripley is Freddie. Maybe my single favorite Hoffman performance. Say it, Bill. Just say it.

Almost famous, Lester Banks. Yeah. Love Liza, Punch Drug, Love, Red Dragon, 25th hour. That's in four years. And every character is different than the last one. Yeah, I mean, he's a character actor. But I think Capote is like the year after. That's 05.

Yeah, 05. And Capote comes in 05, but the year before is along came Polly, which might be his weirdest, craziest performance. He's just insane in that movie?

I learned what a shart was from Philip Seymour Hoffman. I'd never heard that term before until I saw that movie. That movie's really good. We watched that during the pandemic. That was one of the many rom-coms, being my daughter and my wife watched.

And that's kind of the lost, really good 2000s rom-com. It's really funny. Okay. I mean, I don't, I remember just finding I am not a fan of like needless

gross stuff and a movie that is not itself gross and everything he's, he's so obnoxious in that movie that I couldn't and the movie like needs him because he's also exciting, right? It knows what it's got

but it gives him these lines and they're terrible. Yeah, but he's really going for it that movie. Yeah, no, he's really going for it. He's really going for it. I think he must have made some bet with himself in like

the mid-90s, that the next 20 roles I play, each person is going to be different than the last person, no matter how crazy I have to be. And in this, and in 25th hour, it's a very subdued, kind of creepy, Philip Seymour Hoffman with the hat on. But he's not, he's not kind of, he's not weak like the guy in Magnolia, who just is melting down in the hospital room with Cruz. He's not super goofy like Scotty J. and Boogie Nights. He's not carrying himself like the Talta Bistrippa guy. It's this completely. different kind of old school New York character. He feels New Yorkie.

Yeah. Got the Yankee hat on. Did you ever see happiness that Todd Solon's movie from 98? Oh, God. Yeah. I love that movie. Even though there's a really disturbing ejaculate scene in it, that's a really good movie. That is, that, that's his, that's his jizz on the wall.

Yeah. And I mean, I think that character, his character in happiness is related to me to his character in 25th hour. where there these sort of uptight loaners who have this sort of suppressed sexual desire that could really go wrong in any direction at any moment. And in this movie it's Anna Pacquin who's one of his students at this elite prep school who just completely seduces him.

Or she doesn't really know what she's doing. doing. But he knows what he knows what she's doing. And he's really struggling. The performance is like the struggle about both his friend going to prison and whether or not he's going to risk his career

to touch this girl. A plot that would not be happening in 2020. I think if it's done, I think if it's done the way this movie does it, I think it understands the repercussions. And then once the thing happens,

That's a great moment, actually, where there's... I agree to you. I just have no faith in 2020. I think that, like, if Spike Lee uses that script and has those actors, which he wouldn't have in 2020, and, like, sadly. But I think the way the camera, like, the moment of the encounter between the two of them, and then the look on Anna Pacquins face, I think this is a bad Anna Pacquin performance, but that moment in the bathroom,

is just, it's just great. It's occurring to her what she did and she didn't know what she was really doing. It's the fourth version of the same in of Pacquo performance before she kind of started to break out of it. It's like, how many times am I going to be Lolita in a movie? I got to break out of that. In 2011, Spike did a thing in Lincoln Center

with a bunch of the actors from this movie, And he called the big monologue, the famous monologue in this movie, a love-hate letter to New York. And then he said, for me, the love always wins out. I wouldn't want to live anywhere else. That was the scene that in the book exists the way it, all the pre-9-11 stuff. It's not nearly a xenophobic, any of that stuff. But a lot of it's still there. And then Beniof and Spike together tried to reflect 9-11 in it more.

But then ultimately it has the same outcome. And it's a really interesting five minutes to spend watching a movie. It really goes for it in a lot of ways. And then ultimately, he turns it on himself at the end. So it all makes sense. But it's intense. And it's the famous scene in the movie. It's the famous scene in the movie.

But I feel like the thing that kind of bummed me out about that sequence is that it's just the do the right thing montage. But in the mind of one person, now I get what is, what's effective about that is it's one white guy sort of taking you on a tour of his racism's, right? But it's from the book, like pretty much verbatim. Right, right. So that part's interesting that it, that it does feel so much like the do the right thing piece, but at the same time, it's weird that that, I don't know, the connection of just this other book.

seen, David Beniof seen, I mean, I'm sure he had seen do the right thing. I just wonder if he was inspired by it. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's possible. So I think that I like the dismount of him turning it on. I'm like, because you're watching it, thinking where is this going to go?

Because there's something about the, like, the full menu of the racism that I'm just like, okay, well, well, where is this going to live? Then, of course, he just sort of, he just, you know, death eats. all of his, all the racism and it's like, nah, this is all my fault. Fuck me.

Fuck me. I'm the problem. And it's a good Ed Norton scene too. And we should talk, we should discuss Ed Norton here. Yeah, let's talk about it, Norton. One of my five favorite actors.

From 96 on, this is, this is the greatest hits. Primal Fear, people versus Larry Flint, rounders. American History X, which will be one of the two

weirdest rewatchables we ever do on this podcast along with cruising. Everyone says I love you. Everyone says I love you. I don't know where that is. That's around that. Oh, yeah. That's 96.

Fight Club. Keeping the faith. He's father of Brian Finn. I don't remember that one. I really like that movie. He directed that. The score. That's Ben Stiller and Jenna Elfman.

The score, that's a smoochie, Frida does the sellout Red Dragon to get the money to pay for 25th hour. Oh, really? And then 25th hour in the Italian job. Yeah. I did not know that.

his Red Dragon money to be one of the producers for 25th hour. Oh, well, Ed Norton, la-di-da. Okay. Yeah, Ed. But I'm with you. I love Ed Norton. It was an honor to have on the podcast last year. It was one of my favorite actors. This is like a vintage Ed Norton just throwing all of his pitches.

But he doesn't, it, but again, this movie is really about restraint. There's something about the, I like that you have framed this as being a 9-11 movie because I think there's something about. how under the top it all is and how uncertain about how much pleasure it wants to have, right?

I find it really fascinating that, you know, Spike Lee, I think, okay, I'm just going to save this, but then go back to Ed Norton, but I really like the idea that this is a restrained Ed Norton. And he doesn't do whatever it is we had come to

expect Ed Norton to be doing in movies. But this is also a moment for him where, like, his career is, he's, like, now expected to be doing things in movies, like carrying them, you know, being a movie star. And I think he always has seemed torn to me about this movie star actor question. And how much of him is going to be Philip Seymour Hoffman changing from part to part to part.

and how much of him is going to be a leading, whatever a leading man is a leading man. And this to me is, it's, he's a leading man in this. It's like a solid central, like who is the archetype? Robert Ryan or Richard Widmark. I mean, these are, those are guys that could have played this part of this movie got made in the 1950s. And I'm not sure who plays it in the 2000s.

It's the part that Leo would have wanted to do. But it's too handsome. Well, wait, why is the handsomeness matter? This guy has to be seedy enough for me to believe that this is what happened in his life. And that's always been the issue with Leo. But even then the departed, it's like, eh. And I think he's really good at the departed. Oh, yeah, yeah.

But there's a pretty boy thing with him that is always tough to get past when he's playing like the super gritty guy from the streets character. You're making an interesting point that I think is also affecting my feelings about this movie. And I think it's sort of that maybe I don't entirely believe Ed Norton as this person,

but he really, really, really is selling me. There's something about his swagger that I like. There's something about his confidence. There's a kind of like, there's a kind of masculine, there's a kind of masculinity that doesn't announce itself as being, doesn't initially announce itself

as being a masculine first, right? It seems to be these other things. The way, it's the opposite of what Barry Pepper is doing, for instance, which is this very sort of, he's one of the, he's the third friend in this, in this friend table. He's the other leg. And Barry Pepper is ostensibly,

you know, playing the sort of macho, Wall Street type guy. He's playing like a guy of, a reject from Margincall or Gary Glenn Ross basically. Boiler Room. Yeah, Boiler Room. Was he even?

Was he in boiler room? I feel like... He might have been. He was in one of those. Um, and I feel like the thing that I like about Ed Norton always is that his, there's something, there's something about Ed Norton that is,

that is always underneath the surface of these characters where there's another, there's just another layer that he is an, actor doesn't always have to have access. He doesn't always have to have to act, but has access to it's in reserve, basically. And I feel like the thing that that kind of kept me with him in this movie is that whatever that is for him as a person building a character, it's just right there the whole time and he has access to it. There are things that have happened to this character. Now, I didn't read Benioff's book. I didn't read the novel. But I think there are things that have

happen to this guy that we don't know that Edward Norton thinks happened. And he has done his acting out. And I think the closest he's ever going to come is the realization he's about to go to prison and is having this racist tantrum in his mind. You know, it's funny. You and I don't normally completely disagree on something movie related. I mean, we usually one of us will like a movie way more than the others. That'll happen.

I thought Ed Norton was like perfect in this. I thought he was the right level of Citi. I thought he was the right level of tormented and kind of broken. And, you know, to me, it's like, it's a movie about redemption and whether redemption even exists. You know, and then to be able to tie into 9-11 with, which is basically the same thing going on in real life in this city, where it's like, all right, I got to put in seven years here. I made a bad mistake. I got fucked over by my friend. figures out what friend fucked him over, two-thirds of way through the movie.

We got to talk about the fuckover, friend. Yeah, yeah. Oh, yeah. That's coming. And then it's like, if it's my life ever going to be the same from this. And he comes to the conclusion, no. I'm going to be in there seven years. I will be irrevocably changed by the experience. I'm going to come out. My friends probably won't be my friends anymore. My girlfriend's definitely not going to be waiting for me. And then it leads to the end where he has this whole fantasy sequence of like, I escaped. I got away.

His dad's narrating it. I escaped. I got away. My girlfriend came to meet me two years later. Here's what my kids will look like. Here's me with a white mustache. Here's me sitting around in my 70s telling everybody the story about how I got arrested. And then I got a second chance.

And then it cuts back to him in the car. And it's like, yeah, you're not getting a second chance. And I think he's just completely beaten. And it's depressing as fuck. But I think it's effective. I leave this movie and I'm like, fuck, are there second chances? And now you think in 2020 where it's like you make one mistake, you're canceled forever. Like, do second chances even exist anymore?

So this movie, it's not just about 9-11 and almost like you could even put it in the framework of 2020 where it's like nobody gets a second chance anymore. You make a mistake you're out. Yeah, well, I mean, I think that there's a way, you know, it's funny, there's that scene before they go into the nightclub where the bouncer, who looks like a very familiar person to me. I don't know why. You know who it is. You're going to flip out. I think it's Patrice O'Neill. Yes, that's who it is. It's Patrice O'Neill. I'm like, that guy looks really familiar. I didn't look it up, but I'm 99% positive. That's who it was. I feel like that's Patrice O'Neill. That's a good one. I mean, the person is very familiar to me, but the context. just messed me up. There's what he says to Edward Norton before

when he's about to go in the club. Yeah. And he's just like giving him a little prison lecture and it's such a... I mean, I think that there... It's about the choices. I mean, maybe you are right. I mean, this existential question

and what I love about the movie is that it doesn't... It doesn't... It really is an adult movie that is not interested in making you feel better about this person's choices, right? Well, don't you think that's why the movie wasn't received the way it probably should have been? There is no redemption at the end.

People want, they want the Hollywood thing. They want the idealic ending at the end where he gets away, but it turns out to be a fantasy. People actually want that as their ending for movies. Yeah, I think people also didn't want to, I don't remember how this movie was even sold, right? I think that I don't remember it being sold. I remember being sold as a Spike Lee movie with Ed Norton,

not as a movie about 9-11 or anything. I don't remember who's the studio? Is it? Oh, this is Universal, right? Or Disney. It's either Disney or Universal. Or not Disney, but, you know, one of their subsidiaries. I don't have that information.

somehow. Oh, wait. It's like Touchstone or something like? Yeah, Touchstone. Okay. So it made, it made 23.9 million. Yeah. With a five million budget. So it did seem like people went and see it. Yeah, but I don't think Disney really knew what to do with it. Well, clearly from the awards. They definitely didn't know what to do with it. I don't think they knew what to do with it. Because this is a movie, I mean, I'm just going to say it, Bill. I would much rather have had this be the movie. that took Spike Lee to the Oscars and won him some Oscars, than Black Clansman. You know, like, if there's going to be a movie that's, it's like mildly characteristically Spike Lee and is in keeping with some sort of, I don't know, tradition, this is a much more compelling movie for those purposes

than Black Klansman is to me. That's one of the reasons I want to do this as a rewind. Watchables. Here are your 2003 Oscars nominations. 2003. Oh, wait. Do I know this? This is a legendarily bad Oscars year, which makes the way 25th hour was just completely ignored even more amazing. And now if you redid the Oscars, I think it's involved multiple times. So Chicago, Chicago wins. Oh, Chicago Lord of the Rings.

Yep. The hours. Yep. Is it, it's not. Gangs in New York Gangs in New York Gangs in New York Oh, gangs in New York

Okay And the pianist Ooh Interesting Those are your five Now we have The five worst movies I don't know

The hours I can't The hours I can't do that The hours is indefensible Gangs in New York Is just all reputation But if Scorsese

Had been If you just flipped it And Spike Lee Made Gangs of New York And Scorsese Made 25th hour I just think 25th hour

flip, they flip places. That is using your nagging there, Bill Simmons. I love that idea. I love that. Your best directors, Roman Polansky, wins for the pianist, even though he's not allowed in America.

Chicago, gangs of New York at the hours, talk to her. You got Pedro. Wait, what, you got Pedro. Oh, best director. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Oh, yeah. Well, that, I mean... So those are your five. But I, to me, it's like, I'm pretty sure Spike Lee. could have taken Stephen Daldry's spot for the hours. I feel good about that. Best actor, this gets bad.

Oh, that's Adrian Brody. Don't, don't do that. I'm fine with that. He's good in that movie. Yeah, he's great in that movie. Nick Cage and adaptation, are we okay with that? Okay, I am too. There's another best picture nominee that should have happened, but go on. Daniel Day Lewis and Gangs of New York.

I think I'm okay with that one, too. You're okay with that. He's memorable in that. Then it gets dark. Michael Kane and the Quiet American. The classic old guy. Oh, man. Let's get one more for Michael Cain.

And then Jack Nicholson and About Schmidt. I don't know what we're doing. No, don't. You don't like that movie? No, stop. Best actor? Stop. Come on.

One of the five best acting performances of the O2 movie season. Come on. Oh, that's interesting, Bill. I'm surprised. Okay. I mean, I have not watched that movie since it came out, so I don't really know. Exactly. You haven't. Best supporting actor. Best supporting actor was Chris Cooper for adaptation. He won. Oh, yeah. That, of course, yes, 100%. Then you have Ed Harris in The Hours. Paul Newman and wrote to perdition, just the classic Paul Newman might be dead soon. Let's give him one more.

John C. Riley in Chicago and Christopher Walken and Catch Me If You Can. Oh, right. That was actually pretty good movie. Yeah, I like that movie. That's a good movie year, actually. Catch me if you can is another one that I think you could make a case. Could have cracked the top five. But if we had nine movies that year, I think Catch Me if you can to end 25th hours in there. Yeah, I think Spielberg, I mean, I'm not here to, if we're talking about Spike Lee,

I'm not about to shed a tear for Steven Spielberg. But Steven Spielberg is one of those people where they just, they have just given up on him as a great director. They will nominate the movies. Like, how many best picture nominees? of his he had since they expanded the field with no best director nomination. I think at maybe four. Yeah.

Minority reports another one that some people think he should have gotten more acclaim for. That movie's age in an interesting way, especially as we live in the time we're living in now. But anyway, the point is, 25th hour gets shut out, even in best adapted screenplay. Couldn't pull that one off. That was the pianist one about a ball. Boy Adaptation, Chicago, and the hours were the other nominees. So 25th hour, the Academy is just like, no.

They're just not interested. I think that, you know, Spike Lee is just one of those people. I think that they just didn't want to pay attention to him because they didn't want to pay attention. I mean, there's so many movies that he's made that he should have been nominated for Academy Awards for. That they just, I mean, and this, this to me is the most no-brainer if we're talking about like a risk

a risk-free Oscar-friendly movie right, right, right, right, right. I don't know. They wanted middle earth. Not real earth. We've seen a lot of retroactive racism debate

with culture. The Spikely stuff was crazy as it was happening when people weren't even really having those debates in a lot of corners. Meaning what? Just that he was getting

just shut out, left and right, of this stuff. Oh, yeah. Well, it was insane as it was happening. Yeah. He was his, you know,

he had no problem talking about it. Well, and then people would be like, oh, look at Spike, he's whining about blah, blah, blah. And it's like, well, right.

He probably should have a nomination by now. I mean, I, as a, as a, as a, like, huge Spike Lee, uh,

enthusiast. Um, I always found a disappointing when, when the movie, didn't catch fire. And when the critics didn't seem to understand what the movies were even doing in some ways, you know, I mean, to go back to clockers, I mean, I do think that that is his deepest, it's one of his like two or three deepest

fiction films. And I think that it was disserved by having virtually very few black people seriously review it. I think it is a movie that anybody can understand. I mean, Richard Price, I think, is entirely credited for the screenplay. But it's a movie that's very much about it's directing

and the things that Spike Lee is doing that can only come from Spike Lee, like the malt liquor ads and the way that he turns everything that happens in that housing project into Greek tragedy, everything he asks Regina Taylor to do as the mother

as a mother who lives in that complex. The way the cops function in that movie. I don't know. I just think that is such a great film about like the racism in the NYPD and policing writ large, the choices that cops can make and the way that the police have black people's lives in their hands.

Like the reason that it in 25th hour make or like the way, and like the option that they have to choose life for black people instead of death. The reason that I love clockers on a bill with 25th hour is because this is a movie made by a director who understands what a luxury it is for a person to like willingly, like,

eventually just spend a few nights out and about before he goes to prison for seven years. It is, it is, it is such a, what a pleasure for this guy to be able to go to the club one last time and watch his girl dance. And get driven to the airport or driven to the jail by his dad. Yeah. Like, what a, what a treat.

I don't know. I feel like the society, the New York that exists for this person versus the New York that exists for strike in, in Clockers, is just really, I don't know. I mean, I'm talking to you and I'm like, it is a rich movie and I can get a lot out in the conversation. And I know where it's coming from. You know what? You just stumbled on an interesting point.

What would be fun doubleheader director movies? Like if you had like the theater that Tarantino has in L.A. Where it's just like these movies are cousins of each other, even though they have nothing to do with each other, right? By the same director. By the same director and they're movies that are completely different. And yet they're weirdly related to each other. Because I had never made the clockers

25th hour connection. But you could argue you watch those movies together and that would be a pretty fascinating experience, right? Yeah. If you watched, you see, the easy thing would be, all right, I'm going to watch Tarantino, I'm going to watch Reservoir Dogs

and Pulp Fiction together. But that's actually too close. Those are like siblings, not cousins. Yeah, the Tarantinos are all siblings. Right. Tarantino never did version of this, where it's like, I'm just going to grab somebody else's script and just put in a professional, like, there was a point when speed was being made that Tarantino was going to direct speed and just grab it and do it. And that would have been so much fun, right? He never did that

one time with anything. It was always, he always wanted to be a written and directed by Quentin Tarantino. But I kind of wish he had three where it was just like, yeah, I'm just going to direct the 25th hour and be out. But those are a trap, though. Those are a trap. I mean, Spike Lee at that point, you know, at the point that he's doing 25th hour, he's got a signature style, he has a name reputation, and a lot of respect. Tarantino in

94, when he would have been directing speed, I mean, that could have pulled him, I mean, that could have, he knew that could have been derailing, right? He could have been, he could end up, like, going in this weird Tony Scott direction. Tony Scott, yep, that's a great, yeah. The other thing about

this movie, I think it catches spike at the right time. Because I think if he does it five, 10 years earlier, I think he wouldn't have been able to shy away from some of the symbolism stuff. But I think it hits, he's done enough movies at this point that he knows how to make 9-11 a character of the movie without hitting you over the head with it.

This is the thing I was going to say before when I was talking about Ed Norton and I didn't want to get off the Ed Norton conversation. I think the thing that's fascinating about this movie is I mean, it's about It's about knowing what you can't do and knowing that the moment that you're in in 2002 or, you know, I don't know when production began in this movie, maybe the beginning of 2002, the end of 2001. I think you just there, you just don't want to go too far. And I think that that restraint is all over the movie. It does not want to indulge anything. It does not want to make this pleasurable or celebratory in any way. It has this funereal quality that is unlike anything in any Spike Lee movie. And so I think when I'm watching it, I am, it does suffer in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, Lee movie with this one thought.

When is this guy just going to break down and make a musical? Because all of his, all the movies I don't love by him, and even a few of the ones that I do, the best, some of the best stuff in it

involves music and dancing. And that is true in Black Klansman, that great scene in the bar. Yeah. Where you can hear people singing along with the song that I'm not going to remember now,

which is sad for me. The Marvin Gay Sequence in the Nightclub in The Five Bloods, which I don't buy at all from the standpoint of Delaware Lindos character, but the salesmanship, nonetheless, is exciting to watch. You know, school days, which is a, like, underrated Spikely movie in many ways. And if you watch it now, all these issues we're dealing with now with respect to, like, interrogating our institutions,

are like in black interrogation of black institutions and black people of their sort of political failings, that's all happening in school days in addition to all the other things happening there. But there are like three musical numbers in that movie and they're like full, like one is a full on musical number.

So you were Spike Lee directed Chicago this year, not 25th hour. I would love to see, I don't know what musical he should direct, But, I mean, he's filmed musicals before. He's, like, done passing Strange that off-Broadway. I think it was only off-roadway. I don't think it made it to Broadway.

But he filmed that. And, you know, that requires some work. But I think he, I would love to see him actually just bear down hard on a musical. All right. So this movie, they adapt it from 25th hour. So I read this. Scott Tobias wrote this. Oh, Scott Tobias.

He wrote a piece about this movie and he said, by the way, I think the concept of calling this the most interesting 9-11 movie is not unique to this podcast. I think a lot of people have felt that way. He said that two works of art strongly associated with September 11th were Spike Lee's 25th hour and Bruce Springsteen's My City of Ruins, both of which were conceived in 2000. and then woven into the aftermath is what Scott wrote.

And it's a really interesting point, which makes me wonder, I actually think that's true. If you're willingly trying to create something about 9-11, is that almost a hindrance versus having a piece that's already 75 to 80% there, and you can weave the 9-11 piece and all the paint of it and all these different things

that come with it into something that already existed that you created before it happened. I don't know if that's a coincidence or something that, but it is crazy that that Bruce Springsteen song is the most identifiable 9-11 song and yet he changed it from

Asbury Park to to New York after 9-11 happened. I think the depiction of 9-11 is partially an American problem. We don't like to do that. Like we think we do but we really

we're not we the more the time goes on the less self-interrogative we get. We do not look to we don't like to

look inward. We don't like to ask ourselves questions that might be changing in this moment. I think it would be really fascinating to see what art

comes out of both the pandemic and this sort of racial this racial reckoning that we're having with respect, you know, not just racial, but like, this American reckoning with our past, you know, with respect to black people,

you know, Native Americans, land and enslavement. I don't know what the art looks like, but I will tell you that this country, with respect to its entertainment, has a very shitty track record with being, with acknowledging pain and suffering in a historical context, right?

I find, oh, so saying, having said that, I'm going through my mind all the 9-11 movies that I can remember. I think the very worst one I've ever seen. I hope you say it's a Robert Pattinson one. Bill Simmons, it is the worst movie I have ever seen, period. And it is appalling. It is so bad. It's so offensive. It's called Remember Me.

Well, I remember it and it was fucking terrible. And I think I even wrote about it. It's honestly one of the 10 worst movies of the last 50 years. It's the most offensive movie I have ever seen with respect. It ends with the- He's in a plane hitting going into the towers is the ending. You can't even. I mean, it is- What were they doing?

I can't even. That movie is so infuriating. If anybody just wants to be mad at something that isn't like a virus or if you want to take a minute to just not hate the way our government is being run, I strongly invite you to watch this movie. Remember me. There was a couple attempts. As the decade went along,

there was a couple attempts to be like, all right, it's time to make America's ready for the 9-11 movie and every time it didn't work. Nick Cage made World Trade Center, which wasn't terrible. I really liked that movie.

Yeah. That was the other one I was going to bring up. Well, that was, you know, that one 9-11 is a job. just a character. It's a movie about 9-11. But as the decade goes on, and then you start, there was like that Adam Sandler. What was that one he made? Rain on me? Rain on me? Didn't that have like a 9-11? I think his wife died. His wife died in 9-11? That is the problem that I have with these movies, right? Like, the thing I love about World Trade Center is that it actually is just

dealing with the thing, right? That's just an action movie. Yeah, that's like, that might as well be perfect storm. Well, but, but Bill, to be fair to that, movie. Okay, so the problem with that movie, you know, it's interesting. I think World Trade Center suffers from the thing that I think 25th hours suffers from, which is a personal problem, right? Like, you go to a movie called World Trade Center, knowing all that you know at that point in 2006 or whatever about the politics of what led to that moment, right? And you know the movies directed by Oliver Stone. I don't think that he made his Bush movie yet. I think the Bush movies after World Trade Center.

And he's clearly the right person if you're... Like, I think we wanted him to be Michael Moore making that movie. And instead he was Frank Capra. And it just was... It just kind of... It just melted people's brains, I think. But that sequence... There's a 30 minutes of pretty gripping stuff in that movie.

Michael Pena and Nicholas Cage being buried under all that rubble is just like... Michael Penae and Nicholas Cage, the best acting, Michael Pena has ever been asked to do. And Nicholas Cage is so wonderful. That was a crucial correction that you said it that way. What?

You didn't say that was Michael Pena's best acting. He were saying that was the best acting he's been asked to do because he's a really good actor who just doesn't get good parts. He is the best actor who gets nothing to do. Every time I see him a movie, he's my favorite thing in Ant Man. He is Michael Pena. there's a Spike Lee actor that is, I mean, I wish, I wonder like if Spike Lee has a list of people that he just wants to just put in movies and if Michael Pena is on it. Because those two guys together, if he could find something for Michael Pany to do would be, it just would be wonderful. That's been a running joke with Shay and I for a few years now. Any idea for a movie, we put Michael Pena in it because he just, we just wish he was in better movies. We don't understand it.

I love him so much. I agree. I'm down with him too. All right, we've got to get to the categories. Roger Ebert did not put this on his best movies in 2002 list, which a lot of people didn't. But then put it on his great movies list eventually and put it on his best movies of the decade list. And what's interesting is a lot of people did that, including your colleague A.O. Scott. Yeah, Tony loves that movie.

When the end of the movie, when the end of the decade happened, this movie popped up a lot, which is bonkers because the Oscars were like, didn't even know what happened. Yeah. Now, but you know how it works. I know how it works. I get it. But that's one of the reasons it's the rewatchables. Most rewatchable scene.

The opening scene is great. He, uh, the credits are great, little emotional. And then we get to him trying to basically decide whether he's going to save this dog. I told you. It's not a pit bull. He's a good dog. I can see it in his eyes. He's a tough little bastard.

He wasn't lying down for anybody. Sometimes I think you're very stupid man. Look at him. If we wait much longer, he's going to be dead. All right? You want to shoot him with my gun. That was a mercy thing. He's not ready to go yet.

He wants to live. Oh, he tell you this now. No, but it's like a baby, okay? They don't bitch and scream like that. There's a whole theory on the internet about does the wounded dog resemble America after 9-11? I don't know if I totally buy it. It's a little too English literature to me. But, you know, from the opening scene, it's like, this is a movie about, can somebody be saved?

Yeah. So they do it with a dog? and we're going to do it throughout the movie and it's Spike being like, here's where we're going with this just in case it wasn't clear. Second scene, the Fed's bus Monty,

he's got the drugs in his couch. This is an amazing rewatchable because it's Clay Davis from the wire as Clay Davis, but he's a D-A agent and he's doing shit. There's something funny in here, Mr. Brogan. You know, it's a good thing I found this.

It's going to make it so much more comfortable to sit on. Mr. Brogan, I do believe you're fucked. Royally. I had a lot of questions about... It's unbelievable. Yeah. He, like, that actor, Isaiah Whitlock, Jr.

Yeah. I've never read any interview where he's talked about this. But, I mean, that's just, that just belongs to him, right? Like, he just, he's just been doing that. What's weird is the wire comes out the same year. So it's almost like McNulty's busting Monty and Dominic. Dominic West is just playing MacDolte with some Baltimore accent

and you're like, why is McDulte in this? I don't know why they did the Clay Davis thing, but I enjoyed it. It's always an unexpected surprise. Then we have the big bathroom speech. Fuck this whole city and everyone in it. From the road houses of Astoria to the penthouses on Park Avenue.

From the projects in the Bronx to the lofts in Soho, from the tenements and alphabet city to the brownstones and park slope to the split levels in Staten Island. Let an earthquake crumble. let the fires rage, let it burn to fucking ash, and then let the waters rise and submerge this whole rat-infested place.

No, fuck you, Montgomery. You had it all and you threw it away, you dumb fuck! Which ends after he insults everything about New York and then it ends. No, no, fuck you, Montgomery Brogan. You had it all and you threw it away, you dumb fuck. Interesting. Disney wanted to cut the scene. and Spike and Benny off were both like...

Yeah, Spike and Benny off were both like, it's a no-go. Spike's like, that seems one of the reasons I wanted to do the movie, so it's not going anywhere. Did they say, do we know why Disney wanted to cut it? Because it insults... Was it just the racist? It insults basically everybody that exists. But as Spike points out, that's kind of the point.

And by the way, that seems incredible. I can't wait to film it. Also, you're Disney. Like, you guys have, like, when it, I mean... Settle. down, Disney. Next rewatchable scene, Pepper and Hoffman looking at Ground Zero and arguing about Monty. This is just a great scene with two great actors.

The Ground Zero stuff is just jarring and alarming. Everything about this scene is good. And he's got three choices. None of them are good. One, he can run. Two, catch the bullet train. Bullet train. I'm not saying what he's going to do.

I'm saying what his choices are. His third choice is he goes to prison. That's it. Yeah, and that's what he's going to do. He'll go and I'll see him when he gets. It's out. Also has the New York Times says the air is bad down here. And Pepper says, well, fuck the times.

I read the post. Yeah. There's just all kinds of little touches like that. That seems great. There's a really good Rosara Pepper Hoffman scene at the bar when they first meet and they're sizing her out. They're talking about tints and all that stuff. I like that scene.

I like that scene. It's really good. The bartender also invites those guys to her birthday party on Sunday. but that can't happen because Norton's going to be... Right. And then she realizes it and it's awkward. Hey, is it on me? Cheers.

Thanks. Thank you, Joanne. You guys ought to come by Sunday for my birthday party. Yeah. Thanks, true. You don't have to come. I was just saying. No, thanks.

Thank you. Yeah. It's this, it's a, there's a bunch of well-written scenes in this movie, and I think that's one of them. Pepper trying to figure out if Rosario Dawson flipped or not is intense. Monty almost killing Tony Seraguse, aka Nikolai, deciding not to and handing him over the Russians. The scene when Frank beats up Monty and the stuff Spike does,

I think that's some of the best directing in his career. The wide shots, how everything goes silent except for just the sounds of the park, this fight's happening, the alternating between the slow-mo and the live stuff, and then the wide shot of Ed Norton kind of getting his shit together and going over to console Barry Pepper after the everything about it. I mean, it's certainly not a rewatchably fun scene, but man, it's fucking intense. It's a good, it's a good, really well done. That's a good sequence. I, wait, that's, is that it? No, and then the dream sequence. Brian Cox, narrating what his life could be like. That whole thing's really great. But you have anything else?

If I'm Disney, I'm asking to cut that, maybe. That's what I would ask to cut. The, what my life would be like if I escaped? Yeah, I don't mind that. But I find that last shot of his face in the car just compelling enough. And I get why it's there. I don't mind it. But I wonder how it plays without it.

So you're saying cut the very last shot of his face looking at the car. You would actually- No, keep that. That's your last. I mean, that's still your last shot anyway. But you just, the montage, the fantasy montage, you just eliminate that and the last shot is just him. That's so funny.

I love the montage. Producer Craig, actually, that was his favorite scene in the movie. I just wonder how it plays without it. I actually doesn't even bother me that much. And I think that is really the best old age makeup used on two not old people, on Rosario Dawson and Edward Norton. Yeah, Rosario looks hot. She looks like a hot 70-year-old.

She looks amazing. And the old makeup, I'm not sure what age she's supposed to be. She's supposed to be old. But they both look great. Yeah. And the kids look way more like her than him. They didn't even go near trying to blend what they would look like. They were like, yeah, we just go to Rosario.

What do you have for the most rewatchable scene? I love the nightclub sequence. That is, I counted. It's 24 minutes. That sequence. From the moment they enter the nightclub. to the moment they leaked. And so many things happen.

And I actually wonder if Spike Lee would say that he's so, like, he's most proud of that. Because those sequences are hard to do. They're, you know, they're kind of, they don't, I'm a sucker for the dancing parts of those sequences. But I, I listen to, I now, because it's summer and I have an air conditioner

because I live in New York City, I listen to every, I do all my TV watching now with headphones on. And so I got a pair of, are good headphones, and I can hear all kinds of stuff that I wouldn't hear if I were just sitting in my living room. And this is, I advise everybody to consider doing this if you can, if you've got a nice stereo and some nice headphones, and you can, this is a luxury you can subject yourself to. I can hear the sound design for that nightclub sequence. And it is incredible.

It's so funny you say this, because I watched, normally when I watch movies, I'm just in my house, but where I tape my podcasts, I have, that's where my football TVs are, and I have better sound out here. And I noticed the same thing. It sounded incredible. It is great. I was like, man, my speaker sound awesome. But I think it was, you know, you're right. I think they put real thought into how it should sound. I'm with you. I think from the moment we see Patruso O'Neill, it is him. I confirmed it. Okay, good. All the way through to when they leave the bar is the best part of this movie. And, you know, the other thing I was thinking was, you know how Michael Man, he's going to

flex with scenes like this where a lot of shit is going on? Like, you have like that scene in collateral. There's two different scenes in collateral when one where he ends up killing the guy after he tells the story and he just shoots him. But then that other scene, we have to go into that. I love that sequence. Both of those scenes are great. But he's great at a lot of shit is going on right now.

even the start of Miami Vice with the same thing like Tubbs and Crockett are just going through this nightclub and a million things are happening there's lights and sounds and I wish Spike did had done more of that

over the course of his career because I think he's a good chaos director yeah well this is a this is I mean this is number two after the musicals except when the chaos is the point of the movie which is the case with old boy it doesn't work right inside man where there's

Moments and inside man, same thing. Ding, ding, ding. I think he's really good at, there's a lot of shit going on. I'm going to set the scene. Here's things. You're not going to be able to look away. This is fucking intense. And there's only a couple directors who are really good at that.

Like Tarantino's obviously good at it. Michael Mann's good at it. Those are hard to do for one thing. I mean, just in terms of logistics. But what he, what I love about that sequence is, again, this is a movie about restraint. This is a movie, this is an utterly moral. I'm talking about this, though, now as a person who loves it. And I love it. I feel like I've won you, by the end of this podcast, you'll be fully won over. But, but so I think this is a fully, this is a moral, this is a

movie of moral restraint, right? So Spike Lee knows that he cannot go into this club. And the club in some ways is a sort of purgatory, right? Like, it is, it is a, it is a space, with, you know, three different levels and like a, it's three different levels, essentially. And it is, it is a, it is a microcosm of the, of the, you know, heaven, hell, purgatory. And, um, what you have, I mean, he almost literalizes it with the bathroom sequence

that Philip Seymour Hoffman is in. But you got your blue, you're red, and you're regular. And he doesn't indulge in any of the pleasure that should be happening in this nightclub, right? like the sex that should happen between the Philip Seymour Hoffman and Anna Pacquen character not should happen, but you know, that the sex that would happen in a bad,

morally unrestrained, maybe pre-9-11 movie doesn't happen and it also is made to be understood to be unpleasant, right? Yeah, the Russian gangsters like, enjoy the rest of your night. It's like, this night's not enjoyable? Right. Yeah.

I think fun has happened in this that clip. And the watching Rosario Dawson and Anna Pacquin dance, that is also like pleasure-free, right? He doesn't indulge that in the way that another director or a movie made in a different time would. There's just such a, there's such a maturity to the way the images are made and deployed. and the idea that while those two women are dancing way up top

in that hallway or booth or whatever, Ed Norton and Barry Pepper are having this intense conversation about is the point of that sequence to find out whether she did it? Or what does Norton tell? Well, he knows one of two people ratted him out. And he's got Saragusa telling him it was your girlfriend. because Seargoose is trying to knock him off the scent. And he has to decide how much do I trust my girlfriend,

which is always a fun plot in any movie. I'm always in when somebody's like, how much do you trust the person you love? I don't know. How much do I trust them? I like that reckoning. I feel like Charlize Theron deserves to be the queen of, is my boyfriend somebody I have to kill now.

Like, I like her is that person. You know what? Quick tangent, by the way. I just watched Devil's Advocate. because HBO Max has just a shitload of great movies right now. You poor man. She's amazing in that movie. It's a terrible movie.

She's amazing. I just remember how bad that wig was. I just couldn't get past the curly hair. But she cuts it, right? Doesn't she lose the wig at some point? Yeah. She's amazing. Yeah, I'm going to make you watch it.

It's a Rose Maddie's Baby knockoff, right? I'm making you watch that movie. Pacino's his teeth are just fully capped and insane. Yeah, yeah. Keanu's trying a southern accent. There's a lot of stuff, a lot of stuff you love. What's Age the Best? Clay Davis.

I like Spike and Rosario. I like that tandem. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Because I really liked her and he got game too. I don't remember how many movies ultimately they were in. But I always felt like she was at her best in one of his movies. Yeah, it's maybe the, maybe this is, maybe they made three together.

I'm trying to remember what the third movie is now. I like the point of time in the careers that they catch Ed Norton and Hoffman. I have the music down. We talked about that. I like a constant theme in Spikes movies. Understandable is his distrust of all cops, Feds, D.A. But they're always characters.

They're not just like the bad guys. There's always some sort of interaction between whoever the protagonist is with the people. I guess they're three-dimensional, is my point, versus just like, oh, here come the bad guys. My favorite thing about inside man is just the hierarchy within the police, the depiction of the police, right? And I mean, it's just so great. It's just like he's so aware of, I mean, even when he can't quite control all the politics with respect to like the way women function.

Yeah. Or, you know, sometimes he gets so carried away defeating racism or like to, piquting a defeat of racism that he kind of... Or bringing in real-life history into the ending with the little three-minute documentary history monologue? Bill, like... That's my most annoying spike flaw. I can't... I can't take it.

It just drives me nuts. Because he got it right one time he got it right. And even then, it's not even... It's a different thing. We're like, the end of Malcolm X is a totally different thing. It's not... He's not bringing in a documentary. He is...

I don't even... even know what that is, but it's such a powerful dismount, right? Where you have at the end all these kids standing up and saying, I am Malcolm X, I am Malcolm X, I am Malcolm X, I am Malcolm X. It is just, that is great. But every other subsequent one of those, it just feels so cheap to me. In the Five Bloods, it feels cheap. And in Black Klansmen, it feels cheap.

It's powerful, right? Where I think a lot of people who love Black Klansmen, for instance, they told me, oh, I mean, the ending is just, it's amazing. But I'm like, that's the ending of a totally different movie. Right. How about just ending the movie where the movie ended? I mean, I just, oh, God. I really don't like that trick.

And he's also, he's- That's why we love Spike, though, because he's frustrating. He's incredibly talented and he's frustrating. I think that his talents sort of work at cross-purposes sometimes. Like, he is one of our great non-fiction filmmaker. and I don't know why he just doesn't make a movie about the Charlottesville March, right? You know, when the levees broke

is one of the 10 greatest documentaries, I would say, that has ever been made by an American filmmaker, period. And he is, you know, Four Little Girls is really good. His Jim Brown movie is really good. I feel like his, I don't know if he's trying to figure out a way to merge non-fixirms. fiction and fiction.

I just think he gets obsessed with something, throws himself into it, moves on the next thing. Yes. Like the five points, he clearly got obsessed with the specific piece of this story. And he's like, I'm making an awesome movie about this and that was it. And then that's a year and a half of his life.

Then he moves on the next thing. Which... I just feel like that deserves the movie and him. And it's just not fair. It's not fair to Black Lives Matter in this case, in the case of the five. Bloods or the movie, really. Anyway,

I just, it's my, it's, it's, we share a pet peeve, a, a Spike Lee pet peeve. It's all out of love, though. Yeah, of course. I mean, I don't. It's, it's certainly one of the most fascinating IMDBs of any director of the last, in the last 50 years where you actually go through like, oh, yeah. Oh. Oh.

I mean, yeah. I mean, he's like, I mean, I'm going to say this because it's true. he's like Joey's Carol Oates. He's like, I mean, a person who is just so prolific that you just can't even, you don't even know where to start. Like Joyce Carol Oates, that woman seems to write a book a minute. And if Stephen King's like that too. Stephen King's another one.

Oh my God, he wrote another one? Yeah. I mean, Philip Roth, not quite as prolific, but over the body of the body of work. It's like, where do I start with Philip Roth? There are some people where it isn't nice and neat the way it is with Paul Thomas Anderson or Quentin Tarantee. you know. There is just a lot of work and you don't know, you just don't, you don't know where to

begin. What's the most disappointed you've been in a Spike Lee movie? Because I have a very, very clear answer on this. Shirek. Mine is Son of Sam. I feel like that should have been an amazing movie. Bill! I know. Didn't get there for me. I love Son of Sam. I know. Didn't, I thought it veered in too many different directions. Fair. And I just wanted a movie about the blackout and the fucking Syraco are trying to get everybody and just that fear and what that summer was like in New York City. And I think Spike New was at stake. And he just tried to do so many things in that movie. Fantasy is a bigger fan of it than me too.

We've argued about it. That's my number three. You know, I'm going to watch it again. Every time I get mad about stuff as I watch it. The heat got game is very simple. like the hooker subplot just needs to be out. Just take it out.

Just delete it. Delete it from the cable. Summeris Sam is such an ambitious movie and it's trying to do so much. And, I mean, talk about the music in that movie. No, there's so many things I love in that movie. That's what frustrates me about it.

The reality is, it should have been a 10-episode series. We just didn't know that in the late 90s. But the way to really do that was to make that a miniseries. Maybe. I don't know. I haven't watched it in a couple of years, but I've seen it fairly recently.

I just remember being blown away by the way that movie never... It loses sight of the actual murders. Yeah. But it's a trick. It's the same... It's a weird kind of restraint with respect to 25th hour,

where he knows what you came for and he's not going to give it to you. Like, he knows you came to watch people die. And what he's actually going to give you is a story of the atmosphere around those murders. And what would have been like for these people in this community. I have a news flash for you. I came to watch people die. Well, that energy gets transplanted or transposed onto the neighborhood.

And it has this great, like, talk about a Scorsese ending. That is the most, that is the best Catholic ending, not made by a Catholic ending. not made by a Catholic that I've ever seen. I just think that should have been the greatest movie he ever made. Well, it's... What is a more unique movie to him that brings in all the parts you would want with Spike Lee?

Plus, you have an awesome story. You have the Yankees. You have New York in 1977. You have the blackout. You have the simmering racial tension. That's like the fucking... It checks every box of what I would want from Spike Lee with the greatest movie he could make.

Isn't there, also, I think the other other And the Yankees. The great thing in there is there's a lot of documentary footage in it. There's like a lot of like found footage or archival footage or whatever. That movie is alive in so many ways. I love it.

I just, I love that movie. I'm going to watch it again. I'll give it one more chance. Please do. I just feel like nobody has captured that movie, that whole era as well as the Jonathan Mailer book did. Oh yeah. You read that book and you're like, oh my God, how is this not?

something. And then like, remember ESPN made that Bronx is Burning mini series? Whatever the fuck? That was bad. Anyway, uh, more would say, we got to, we're way beyond schedule. Morewood's stage is the best. Awesome cool hand Luke poster and Ed Norton's apartment. Oh, I looked that up, Bill. I can't find it. It's fantastic. It's a great poster. It's, it's big and unusually sized. Yeah. Yeah. It's a great. It's a great Much bigger left to right. It's a great one. The title's really good, 25th hour.

Just like it. I know it came from the book, but that's just a strong idea for a title and a name. And then... No, he hate me. Or she hate me. Which is one of my other favorite crazy spike in movies. And Benioff. Dude goes on to make Game of Thrones.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Was he married to Amanda Pete at that point? No, I don't think... I think he was not about to win the lottery yet, maybe it was in motion. He is handsome. I mean, if I'm a man to Pete and I see him in a party,

I'm definitely thinking about kicking it to him. Well, I don't want to rat out one of my coworkers, but, and I'm not going to, I'm not going to name them. But Juliet Lippman, there's a lot. If you want David Benioff photos and just any sort of anything, she's your lady for that. Juliet Lippman is my walk buddy every once in a while. Oh, bring up Benny Off.

she'll start walking faster. You'll see the hopper step as she's going. I only have a couple of what's ages of worst other than stuff we already mentioned. The subplot of Hoffman's character and the student, 17 years old, it's a little dicey.

I don't like it. I also think you could argue you could just take it out completely and the movie's fine. Mm-hmm. And then just Frank beating up, Manti, is rough and there's a nipick with that that I'll get to later, but that's

on the one hand, such a beautifully shot incredible scene. On the other hand, it's just painful, you know? And it's just a tough one. Anyway, casting what ifs, Britney Murphy was originally lined up to play Mary, which I think was the Anna Pacoan character.

And then that fell through. Was she too old for that? She could have been Rosario Dawson's character. Not that I want to recast Rzardo Dawson, but Oh, Britney Murphy. God, damn. Toby McGuire

bought the rights to the original novel and was supposed to be the star and then decided to make Spider-Man and stayed on as a producer. Oh, that's why he's a producer, I see. I'm going to go out on a limb and say this isn't as good of a movie with Toby Maguire as Monty.

Toby McGuire, though, he's a dark horse. He will surprise you. You just don't, you'll never see him coming. And then he's all up in your face. What's your favorite Toby McGuire movie? My favorite movie would tell me? Well, my favorite Toby McGuire performance or my favorite Toby McGuire movie?

Performance. That's a tough one. I would go, he's really good in that movie, Brothers. Do you ever see that? Yeah. That movie with him and Jake Gyllenhaal? Yeah, I like that movie. He is fantastic in that movie.

Also, Spider-Man 2. I think Spider-Man 2 is like one of, it's one of my favorite movies. Well, that's not true. I just really like that movie a lot. And I think he is so wonderful in that film. And all the cutting to him in the action sequences. I mean, it's just, I've never seen better.

I think that might be one of the best, like, match on action, you know, reaction shot to action performances I've seen. He's just, he's really good in that movie. Also Spider-Man 3, which nobody likes, but the first 40 minutes of that movie where he is Peter Parker is just like bad Peter, I don't know exactly when in the movie it happens, but that whole sequence where he's playing two Peter Parker's,

it's just, he's also wonderful in that too. I'm Ice Storm. Yeah, that's fair. That's the best Toby McGuire movie. Ice Storm for some reason is just on my, DVR, and I have no idea why, but I never want to take it off because I'm just like, I never know. Never know when I want to go back to 1973 New Canaan for a little fucking weirdness. I love that movie. That's really... Talk about the one of the great movies. See, one of the

great movies made about whiteness and one of the great movies made by a non-white person about whiteness. I mean, James Shamish wrote the film and Aungley, Engley directed it. But it's such a great movie about the hot house of suburban whiteness in a way that only, I mean, I don't know what they talked about when they were making it, but Engley definitely knows what he's doing. I mean, if you watch it now in 2020, and I haven't watched it. I've watched it two years ago, so I can put it in 2020. it's just one of the great movies made about about white people. Save it for the Ice Storm Rewatchables podcast.

Okay. Because that one's coming at some point. There's a lot to unpack with that movie. Yes. Best that guy, aka the Joey Pants Award. You got Clay Davis. Although I feel like he's Isaiah Whitlock Jr. now. I think he's Isaiah.

I think unfortunately he's not Clay Davis anymore. Or fortunately for him. I think he's his. real name has transcended. Same for Brian Cox. So I think was Brian Cox, if you actually knew movies, for other people might have been like, oh, that guy from this movie, then Succession Made in Brian Cox. Patrice O'Neill doesn't really count either.

So I got to go with Saragusa. I have beautiful women. Very nice. Yeah, well, I'm not really in the movie. Dad, I got a nice girl. I know, I know. Tonight is special night. Last night is free man. I picked her out special just for you. The last girl, you picked out special for me.

Syracusa. Yes. Because I think if you're under 25, you don't even, you vaguely remember he's a football player, but yeah, this was his big breakup. He's good.

That accent? I don't know where he found that accent. I have a Saragusa story. Oh, please share. As ESPN, I was there for like five, six months.

My column was really taken off and I'd gotten this, my original agent, like a book agent, tried to figure out how I was going to do a book. And they came to me, He was like, we have the project.

You're going to ghost write Tony Seraguse's biography. You'll make $40,000 or whatever it was. I'm like, I'm not doing that. And the fact that you think I should do that makes me wonder if I have the white representation. I'm going to write Goose with an exclamation point

by Tony Seragusa and me in very small print and Bill Simmons. This is to say, I quickly got another agent. I really enjoy him in this. He's got a nice, I mean, he aged into his post sports body quite nice. It's good. He even pulls off the accent. The Vincent Hanna, Give Me All You Got Award for Most Overacting, Best Overacting.

I didn't really feel like there was a total overacting, as you said, a movie of restraint. So I'm going to cancel that category for this episode. The Brandy Booth Award for Best Performance by a Pet. There's only one answer. Wow. Doyle. I'm going to give Doyle nine out of ten shooeyes. He's multiple seeds. You're rooting for his redemption.

Great job, Doyle. He could be a symbol of America, according to some people. Yeah, up to nine and a half. Nine and a half, too, he's out of ten. The Dionne Waiters Award, best heat check performance. I can't say Anna Pacquin because I didn't like her performance. I can't give it to Clay Davis because he's Clay Davis. I got to say, I had guy who looked like Patrice O'Neill,

and not realizing it was actually Patrice O'Neill. And I think Patrice O'Nell gets it. He's in for one minute, but it's a great minute. It's really important. Nice. 17 years old, man. 17. 17. But he gets the girls jumping, man.

And don't worry about the crowd. VIP set up for y'all. Don't worry about that. These are my people here. These guys, don't want them coming in here? You're going through the back and the door will be open for you. Don't worry about that. Thank you.

Hey, listen up. Don't lose your temper until it's time to lose your temper. You hear me? What about the guy who plays the guy who plays the guy. the gangster. Well, I have him coming up. All right. Well, I'll let's, Patrice O'Neal, I don't want to take anything away from the great Petitio, yeah, we'll do Petrucair. So that's our next category.

Recasting Couch. Who should have played the guy who played the gangster? Because I didn't, that guy didn't work for me. Yeah, that guy. I, I, was a huge fan. No. That's one of those things. But again, this is about restraint. Because you know what? Like, Spike Lee could have totally called De Niro, Pacino, Kytel. He could have Pesci. Spikely could have called

any one of those like, I mean, it's a Russian gangster, so maybe not one of those. Well, but so the path you're talking about is like the Malcovich and Rounders path where it's like... Yes, yes, Malcovich is a great... It's super fun and entertaining, but you don't really ever feel like the guy,

you know, it's John Malcovich. Right, right. I mean, again, this is a movie that wants you to focus on what it wants you to focus on. It doesn't want you getting distracted by a bunch of stuff that you don't need to be distracted by. So yeah With that said

I would have gone with a better actor Halfass internet research I gave it all to you already Apex Mountain The Ed Norton What was Ed Norton's Apex Mountain Is a pretty good question

You could argue It's coming off Red Dragon And then doing this movie But this movie wasn't that successful So it's probably Fight Club I would say it's But Fight Club's a year after American History

Acts he has the nomination already This is a good question Yeah, I mean, I think it's probably Fight Club. It's definitely Fight Club. I think he has the most juice after Fight Club. Yeah, because, you know, everything else just seemed like diminished returns in some way. Like he makes that Hulk movie with Angley. Oh, yeah, that's not that's not the Angley. No, I'm sorry, I can't believe about you to that. The Eric Bona is the Angley Hulk movie. That is the great, that's a, that's a fantastic movie to plug Angley again. He makes the other Hulk movie.

Which is the in-between Hulk movie. It's a tough one because you can't be the all I care about is acting all that stuff and then do like a sellout role. But he was in, I mean, imagine, I don't know. I got to imagine if you're Ed Norton and you know,

and there's no question that he is one of the best actors in the movies. And for a while, the most exciting actor in the movies. There is some pressure on you to not, to make good choices. And at some point, like, the needs of your ego and the demands of your career, I guess, it just sort of, he got locked into a thing that he couldn't seem to get himself out of.

Yeah. That's why he was so great in Birdman, by the way, because he was... I like him and everything. I'm always excited to see Ed Norton. Yeah. Even when he showed up in the Boren movie, it's like, oh, cool, Ed Norton's here. Yeah, but Birdman was him sort of leaning into

and embracing an idea of himself that I just thought was, I mean, that was what was so exciting about that performance was like, he was dialed into something that involved an ego. And he got to play that. Why do you think Birdman didn't have kind of the legs?

Like, if we did it for the rewatchables, I think people would be surprised, although they're probably surprised they're doing this one. I mean, like, your idiosyncrasies do count for something, right, with respect to what's rewatchable. I think I always think that the test of these movies is whether or not it is. And, like, how much, how rewarding is the experience of rewatching it going to be? I think Birdman, I've seen it since it opened and it still gives me a kind of pleasure. I've mixed feelings about it, but it's fun to watch. I think it was the most fun to watch the first time because you didn't know it was going to happen. It was kind of thrilling and it was kind of like being on a roller coaster, but now you know where the roller coasters going.

Second time, maybe not the same. But, I mean, there was a point when that movie came out where it seemed like the guaranteed Oscar winner. And Keaton was a guaranteed best actor winner. And then remember everybody kind of cooled off with about three weeks left to go. And it was it was strange to watch. What happened, though? There's just like a media narrative, I think, that took hold. I don't remember what it was, though.

I mean, I'm so far away from that. It was a weird Oscar Cooloff thing. In it E2-1. So, I mean, there's that. Apex Mountain, Spike Lee, no. Benny Off, no. Hoffman, no. Movies were 9-11 is a character.

I would say yes. I think this is the signature 9-11 movie, even though it's not about 9-11. Yeah. That's a no-brainer. What about Barry Pepper? So I was going to do this later. Oh, well, let's just save it for later then.

Want to do it now? No, no, let's do it later. Let's keep going. Save Barry Pepper. Picking Nits. I really only have one. Would being ugly or really help you in prison? It's kind of dubious.

My theory on this is that's not what the whole beating was about, I think he wanted to be punished in some way by somebody he knew, because he felt like so upset that he had let his life get away. So it was like, yeah. That's a good reading. But ultimately, I just think he wanted to have his friend beat the shit out of him because he was so bad at himself. Would be my take. I think that I'm convinced by that. I'm totally convinced by that. Best quote, champagne for my real friends, real pain for my sham friends. I like that one. I also like... But wait, pause. Yeah. That's just a thing people say. He didn't make that up.

No, I just liked hearing it. The one that is from the movie, I've been in three prisons and three countries, and you know what I learned? Prison is a bad place to be. It's like, oh, you think so, doctor? Yeah. Could this be remade as a 10-episode Netflix show?

Fuck yeah. I mean, I don't want them to do it. Yeah, I don't want them to do it either. This whole concept of somebody's last day would be a really could. Somebody's last day before they go to jail is a good idea for a Netflix show. That would probably actually

be a terrible Apple TV show. You'd have to fill it out. It's like, we have a Helmsworth brother. It's his last day. It's the 25th hour. Next on Apple TV. You can get all three Ham'sworth brothers to, in a remake of this movie.

Yeah, they beat up one of them. You can get all three. Yeah. Probably in answerable questions. Is this movie better if Matt Damon is in the Barry Pepper part. Oh, S-H-I-T. I asked this for two reasons. One, would he do a better job? Two, is that a really fun Matt Damon role that he hasn't really played a movie and then three bonus point. Does this movie have a better chance to be recognized for an Oscar if it's Ed Norton, Matt Damon, Philip Seymour

Hoffman, and then you end Spike Lee. And then you have the fourth piece of just the rounders reunion. and I say this really liking Barry Pepper in this movie. But if it's Damon, where do we... I feel like the ceiling gets higher. Well, this is again, I mean, even without you asking this excellent question, I had already felt like what I wanted

was more time with each man on his own, right? And I think that you put Matt Damon in the part and it sort of changes things. I think Barry Pepper became a better thing. actor as the decade went on. I think if you put Matt Damon in this part, it does kind of, it makes it less, it just changes the stakes a little bit and you don't exactly know, it would require you to flesh out that character more than he already, than he is already.

It's probably a longer movie, but I think it's taken more seriously as an awards movie because of the names involved at that point. I wonder. I mean, it's interesting. Like, how do you, I mean, I wonder what Barry Pepper would say how people would, how people would say they feel about Barry Pepper. Like, well, I could tell you how I feel. I really liked him in saving Private Ryan. I thought he was good at enemy of this state.

I thought he was excellent in 61, which is one of my favorite TV movies. He's Roger Maris. He might have. I think he was either nominated or he won. I really liked him a knock around guys. I thought he was good in that. I really liked them 25th hour. All of those movies take place from 98 to 02.

And then the wheels kind of came off. But there was a moment there where it's like... 61 was before this? Yeah, 61 was 2001. Oh, wow. So that's why I think his Apex Mountain was probably 61. Yeah. Because you come out of that and you think like, oh, that guy's a leading actor.

He'll be in the discussion. And it just never happened. Now, I think he might have been a little eccentric. I mean, my evidence is he played Johnny Good Boy Taylor, Johnny Good Boy Tyler in Battlefield Earth. That's right. It's him in Travolta in Battlefield Earth. Without casping too many aspersions on Scientology,

like he's in Battlefield Earth, that's a red flag. But that was during this run that he had. I know. I know. I think he might have been a little, I don't know. It's a good actor, though. And he's great in this movie. But is the upset Howard Damon, I don't know.

Any other unanswerable questions? Does, well, I mean, this is sort of an extra narrative question, but like, what's Philip Seymour Hoffman's character's Monday like? I mean. Awkward. Probably handing it his resignation. Yeah. I mean, just wonder.

Hey, stay away from your 17-year-old students with elaborate belly button tattoo hearing stuff. That's one of the many lessons of this. Don't let him into the club. What happens when Norton gets out of prison seven years later is Rosara Dossie waiting for him? I'm going to say no. I think she's long gone. And the dad's probably dead.

I don't think, yeah, I don't know. What is her job in this movie, by the way? Do we know? Does she have a career? Or is she just a girlfriend? It's unclear. I'd always assume she was like a waitress or something. Because the fight between her character and Barry Pepper's character is about

like the choices, you know, the looking, all the looking the other way that she did as his girlfriend and how she's complicit in his in his drug dealing life. Maybe she was a student? Maybe. Yeah, yeah, because she was, he does say that she was 17.

She was Anna Pacquine's age when they met. So whatever, whatever that is. Who won the movie for you? This is a complicated one. For me? For me? Yeah. But I'm, I'm an adult. and I've, well, I have three answers to that question. Number three, Rodrigo Preeto. Just a beautiful movie.

It is just a beautiful, beautiful movie. I think you've come all the way around. I feel great about this. This is now one of your favorite Spike Lee movies. This is awesome. I've done God's work. Prieto is number three. Terrence Blanchard.

I mean, again, I just love the tone of this score. I think sometimes Terrence Blanchard and Spike Lee, I think the notes are too bright. And there is a real insistence on major key uplift. And he gets very close to Aaron Copeland in his thinking about the way a score should work. And sometimes, not all the time. But I think that this, there's something about the mournfulness of this score. Again, the restraint, I don't know if he's obviously holding back, given what you know Terrence Blancher can do.

And there's something about that restraint that gives the movie a sort of like a real sense of reverence and holiness. And number one, I think Spike Lee. I think Spike Lee proves a number of things for this movie. One is that he can sort of direct with his hands in his pocket, so to speak. He's not gesticulating all the time. and he can focus on on the sort of moral matter at hand in a way that he doesn't always feel he needs to do

because so many other things are as interesting in his mind as the thing in the movie is ostensibly about. And sometimes he gets away with it the way he does with Inside Man where there are like all these different things happening in addition to the caper. Yeah. And I just, I mean, it's,

it is a very good directing performance, I think, by him. in this movie. I have Spike hands down. Yeah. I hesitate to think anyone could have done a better job directing the movie. I don't know. What's interesting is, I don't know what year of Scorsese would have been the right year, whether you would have gone early Scorsese, vintage Scorsese, or a little late in his prime

Scorsese. But I think there's a version of Scorsese that this is fascinating. Yeah. It's that period in the 90s and early 2000s. Scorsese made like where he was always underrated. Like bringing out the dead being, you know, one of his three or four most underrated movies. I think he would have been really cool with this. It has to be somebody who has a real connection with New York.

It's the only way it works. And there's not there's not that many. So, you know. Can I suggest something? Yeah. I would love to have seen a person who had never made a movie before. make this movie. I think that, you know, one of...

Like their first movie? Yeah, I think one of the things, and I'm going to just say this, I think one of the things, despite my thinking that Spike Lee won the movie and that it's a great directing performance in some way, I think the thing that keeps me outside of it

is the restraint. And I think there's a way that like some rawness should have crept into the material in some way. But it's such, it's on such good behavior. and it's so mannered that for me, I am, I am kind of like Ed Norton and Barry Pepper looking down at that nightclub sequence with Anna Pacquin and Rosario Dawson.

I am a spectator looking at something, you know, quote, pleasurable, unquote, but not being able to access it because I shouldn't or I can't. I would love to know what a 25 to 33-year-old director, would do with this exact same script. I'm really curious. This was fun. Oh, wait, can I ask you one last question? Yeah.

Shawshank Redemption and This. Yeah. Two movies about some kind of redemption or the lack of it or whatever, and their prison movies. Yeah. Do they in any way have a relationship to each other to you? No. Because Shawshank's about hope.

And this movie is not about hope. Okay. I would actually say, it's interesting. I think American History X in this movie have way more of a relationship because... And it's not just because Ed Norton's in both movies, but it's about this guy. And I think this is when he's at his best, because it was the same with Worm and Rounders, which is a movie I obviously overrated a little bit, but I love. Everybody loves Rounders.

But I like when he plays these guys who... I wouldn't like them if they were in my life. I would know not to trust them. And I would know ultimately maybe not a good guy for whatever reason. But he has a way of making me root for those people. I mean, American History X, it's nuts. That guy's the fucking worst.

And by the end of the movie, you're like, oh, man, he figured it out. Good for him. Yeah. He has those scenes with Guy Torrey. I just watched that movie recently. I think it has some incredible parts. the stuff with Guy Tori in the laundry room

is like, it's unbelievable. And you're like, and you're buying that he's connecting with this guy when meanwhile, we've just seen an hour and a half of him seemingly not being redeemable at all. Yeah. And I don't know, he has a knack for being able to do that. And I think it's a pretty rare quality for an actor. He's seductive.

He's one of the more seductive people to be in the movies, I think where like you just, you only like this person because this person is playing. Well, think of primal fear when he does the first turn. That's what I was going to bring that. And you're just like, wait, why's he doing that? Ed, what's happening?

That is one of the best. This is a, man, this just can never happen in the movies again, really. Like if we're not looking for stars anymore, we're like this person who seems really promising all of a sudden drops you through a trap door, just of his acting. it's really, it's a really good performance.

Well, if he's listening to me, he's bad because I keep calling him Ed Norton and he likes to be called Edward. But I just think of him as Ed Norton. I don't know. I'm not going to apologize. Well, where did you get the idea that he was Ed? I just always call him Ed Norton. Because his dad was Ed Norton. Okay.

Well, that's fair. But I don't know. I was call him Ed Norton. Edward. Edward. I don't like calling people Edward. But that's his name. I know.

I just call him. I'm at a close relationship with him. Okay, well then I'm sure he won't mind when you call him a thing he doesn't like to be called. Yeah, my bad. Sorry, Edward Norton. Wesley, this was great. And I'm just going to leave you with this. Yeah.

Start dusting off your Ice Storm thoughts. Oh. They're all ready. They're fresh. Start dusting it off. Start getting ready to buy a ticket for a time machine to go back to 1970s, Connecticut. Yeah. Don't make me be Toby McGuire.

running for the metro, like, with 30 seconds to spare? I have two hours alone on the key party. So it's a four-hour podcast. Because two will be about the key party, and then the other two will be about the rest of the movie. Wesley Morris, thanks. As always, great seeing you. All right, great seeing you, Bill.

Talk to you later. We'll be back on the rewatchables next week, Monday night. Not sure of the movie yet, but it will be a good one. I promise. See you.