The Rewatchables - ‘8MM’ With Bill Simmons, Chris Ryan, and Van Lathan

Episode Date: November 24, 2020

The Ringer’s Bill Simmons, Chris Ryan, and Van Lathan are hired to uncover whether the very podcast they are on is real or just smoke and mirrors. We revisit the 1999 mystery thriller ‘8MM’ starring Nicolas Cage, James Gandolfini, and Joaquin Phoenix. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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because we have three great turkey recipes that battle it out on the first episode of that podcast. And then the Ringer Music Show launched this week with Charles Holmes. And we're really excited about that one. Breaks down an iconic Kanye album. So look out for all those. Don't forget to listen to all of our NBA content and read all that stuff as well because it's been a crazy NBA time right now. Also, the book of basketball on my podcast, that has another one coming out on Thursday night. So stay tuned for that. This episode is brought to you by Adobe Firefly, the all-in-one creative studio with AI-powered image and video generation. Build for today's creative process, Firefly helps you generate, edit, and experiment fast, because the asks aren't getting smaller. And the

timelines? Ooh, yeah, still tight. With all the best creative AI model, in one place. Firefly brings your ideas to life. Learn more at adobe.com slash firefly. This episode is brought to by Whole Foods Market. Spring is here, so celebrate it with fresh, juicy, seasonal produce and some very tasty limited time flavors. New Whole Foods, Market Peach, Apricot, Rose, Italian soda. Perfect for a picnic or brunch. As is their trending mango, Yuzu chantilly cake. But if you're on the go, new 365 strawberry pretzels make a great sweet snack. That sounds delicious.

Get savings with yellow sales signs storewide and everyday low prices on 365 brand items. Enjoy the fresh flavors of spring. Save at Whole Foods Market. Coming up. Hello, Machine. Love your work. Eight millimeters next. It's a film.

Where a girl appears to be murdered. She had no name. I need information I thought you might be able to help. Until he uncovered the truth. The film is real. From now. I'm trying to understand! How far will he go?

I dance with the devil. The devil don't change. The devil changes you. In the name of justice. You know what to finish this been there. Academy Award winner Nicholas Cage. No! 8mm.

Rated R. Opens everywhere, February 26th. All right. Chris Ryan is here. Van Lathan is here. No better way to spend the holidays than with us. Talking about 8mm, one of the single weirdest movies of the last 25 years and a movie that, for some reason, the three of us love,

and we're not alone. I know other people that love this movie. Yeah? Chris. Do you? I do. Including the best man in my wedding. We've been sending machine photos back and forth

ever since we could text just for comedy's sake. So one of the reasons I wanted to do this as a rewatchable's pod Because I do think it's rewatchable There's a whole section where if you just come in at the right time You're like, oh shit, he just got to California I'm just going here for the next half hour Chris greatest ideas That never quite got there for movies

And if anything, we're kind of disappointing how they executed it And yet they're still somehow rewatchable I think this is one of the ones that leads the way. Great idea. Merkie execution, great idea. I love a descent into hell movie. I love relatively straight, normal guy gets pulled into the underground movie. I mean, that is such a great, and this has got its roots in movies like hardcore from the 70s and to some extent, like taxi driver and just watching someone kind of fall apart.

I love people getting pulled into the depth, though. Van, why do you like this movie? Because I was going through a phase when I first saw it. I was going through a phase of just checking out everything that was weird just to see how weird I could be, you know? Yeah. And like, Seven plunged me into this, like, thing. Let's see how far this goes because I was, my brain was so scrambled. By the way, I think this movie got made because Seven was such a big deal.

Seven, let's see, my brain got scrambling in that film. And I was like, let's take a walk down the completely weird and depraved side. And so when I heard about a movie with a snuff, film and Nicholas Cage is in it, who was just all over the place at that time, I had to see it, and it kind of reminds me. And you know what? When I watched it, I realized it's weird and it's depraved, but it never quite gets as weird and depraved as it needs to be for it to be a slam dunk film. And I kind of like that ambiguity about it. It is nostalgic in a way, as the most disturbing nostalgic film of Vann's mental film roller decks.

Well, Andrew Kevin Walker wrote 7 and wrote this movie. And we did 7 on the rewatchables a few months ago. I didn't even know that. Yeah. We talked about one of the reasons that 7 was great was because it was depraved. And they did cross the line. And there was a big debate even at the end about whether, whether Spoiler Alert, Gwynness Head should be in the box or not.

And they just went for it the whole time. I'm with you in this movie. Did never totally get there. But my counter is, This is from Wikipedia. I'm just going to read this. This is the synopsis of 8mm. A 1999 mystery thriller film

directed by Joel Schumacher and written by Andrew Kevin Walker. The film stars Nicholas Cage as a private investigator who delves into the world of snuff films, Joaquin Phoenix, James Gandalfini, and Anthony Heald appeared in supporting roles. That's it. You got me.

Chris, that's all I needed. I didn't need one other thing there. Great lineup of guys. And here's the thing with, here's the thing with 8mm. And you kind of made, you alluded to this by saying that you and your best man at your wedding have been sending each other machine pictures for the better part of 20 years. You can't watch this movie like it's the room or like it's Rocky Horror Picture Show. Like, I think it's a coping mechanism because to like deal with the darkness of the subject matter. But there are unintentionally hilarious parts about this movie that make it rewatchable. And in some ways, it's better as a rewatchable than it is a, as a watchable. Like, it's better to see this movie for the sixth time than it is to see it for like the first or second time. Well, that's the magic of Nick Cage, right?

This is where he completed the vortex. He laid the groundwork and face off and con here. This was the next level where it's like a seemingly good movie that's also unintentionally hilarious over and over again. And that's, I think for me, that's why it's the most rewatchable. It's fucking funny. I was texting you guys. I was cutting out little clips

And texting you're like There's moments in this movie Where you're just like I can't believe they thought this was a good idea Right But they just did it It's the beginning of the Nicholas Cage Wicker Man era

It's the beginning of Yo is this motherfucker's serious right now I can't tell And that We have to give it up Is one of the finest eras in film Yeah Yeah

It's when the pilot begins His descent Right You circle in the airport a little bit You put your seat back up. You got the tray tables up. Right. And then four or five years from now, he's getting, you know,

Frosties thrown at his head and Weatherman. And then we're in full Nicholas Cage era craziness. Well, let's go through it right here. 95 to 2000. 95 is in Kiss of Death, a movie that Chris Ryan and I will absolutely be doing on the rewatchables before this feed finally does. Leaving Las Vegas. wins an Oscar.

It's like, oh, man, Nicholas Cage has arrived. Holy shit. And yet he follows that up with the rock, connie, and face off in consecutive things. He's like, you know what?

The Oscar stuff's cool. I'm going to make these movies instead. I'm going to make 60 mil. Yeah. Right. He's just banking checks. And then it kind of starts to dip a little on it.

I mean, the City of Angels doesn't work. Snake eyes, noble effort didn't work. Eight millimeter. I feel like did work. And then all of a sudden, bringing out the dead gone in 60 seconds. And he becomes the.

a cage we don't know now. And that's, as Chris said, the plane was going down. Gone in 60 seconds was the last attempt to kind of stay above altitude while the plane's shaking. And then it's done. I forget what year he made Ghost Rider, but that was when the wheels officially came up. He still, he still, like, rears his head up for some good stuff here and there. Like, he's still, matchstick men is good. You know, weatherman is good. Weatherman is good. Like, Lord of War, I think people thought would be good. I adore that movie. I'm sorry. I know that people don't. dig it. I love. Lord of War? Yeah, it's a little thin. Yeah. It imparts and, you know, a little weird, but I really enjoyed that. And then, you know, he was in World Trade Center and that was

supposed to be his sort of return just prestige. And then after that is Wickerman, Ghost Rider, you know, next, Bangkok Dangerous, knowing. And then you just get into like, fucking G-Force, bad lieutenant sequel, Sorcerer's Apprentice Season of the Witch and you're just like, where are we going? And what we're doing is we're going to the Red Box movies. if you cut the check, Nicholas Cage will show up on your movie set and do whatever, you know, is in the script. But he's stubborn, he's stubborn, though, because in between those movies are National Treasurer as well, right? So he's stubborn. He won't give it up.

It's a weird career that it, when you think about the whole thing, because some of those movies are so fucking far out there. And then he's got the tent pole Disney thing so that he can keep buying dinosaur bones and keeping them in a pyramid in New Orleans or whatever it is that he does. it's almost like the NBA star that doesn't have the top 40 Hall of Fame career you thought was going to happen but it's still really interesting and there were some peaks but then you're like oh man never made the finals

I guess the winning in Oscars probably is a making the finals thing I think the thing I always appreciated about him and this is going back even before his before this 95 to 2000 stretch when he became an A plus Lister like there's no question he was always really committed

to whatever the role was to the point that it was kind of just funny to see how into it he was. There's never a wink to the audience. He was always fully in. And you see it in this movie where he's just going for it in every scene. And it's like this is like a weirdo depraved action thriller. Nick Cage is treating this like this is going to be

his second Oscar. And I always thought that was probably my favorite thing of him because you're kind of 80% appreciated it, but 20% you're looking at the person you're sitting next to, be like, oh man, Nick Cage, he's on one and this one. And that's been his career. Now it's gotten weird.

You see when he releases these VOD movies. He was the perfect star for that era because he was like as crazy as Michael Bay was. You know, like he was willing to kind of go over the top and meet that music video style that was very big back in that area that kind of like slick blockbuster

style. And he also had that that little, like, that change-up that sort of was part of more like Dennis Hopper, Christopher Walken vibes. But he had it in the body of it in the sort of like the image of like a box office superstar.

Yeah, the crazy thing about this movie is that it's the restraint that makes the performance peculiar. If he to just let go, you know, if he starts off straight-laced guy with a little twinge of whatever, you know, he's rebellious in the beginning. He gets mad, his wife is asking him.

if he's smoking, like you see that there's a little, there's a glitch in there somewhere you can tell. But if he just midway through this film, just let's go and goes full screaming at the moon type of guy, then it's an easier thing to understand. But throughout the whole movie, he's trying to do his best to hold on to some semblance of his humanity. And that's the part of it that makes the film, like, funny.

That makes it, that, yeah, that puts you in a weird spot with it. Well, and also, they're really trying to, I mean, the subplot, I know we're going to talk about it with Catherine Keener as his wife and holding the baby is some of the worst scenes in the last 25 years. The worst work of her career. They just cut all of it. But I think Schumacher was like, so the dichotomy of this missing girl who got into porn and Nick Cage's young baby daughter who still has her whole life ahead of her, I'm just going to bang this home over and over again. So you keep thinking about it. And it's just terrible. But it's one of the reasons I love the movie.

It's so bad. It's amazing. Nobody talked about it. And in interviews, he's like, I think Keener did an amazing job. And, like, Catherine Keener is one of, like, the best actresses of her generation. But she's just, like, fucking out there without a raft in the middle of the ocean. Like, she's got a baby she's never met in one arm. And, like, kind of, like, doesn't even seem like she likes it very much.

She's just like, oh, great, Cindy. And then on the other hand, like, all she does throughout the movie is answer these phone calls from Dick Cage when he's just like, yep, everything's going fine. Definitely not watching a Dino Velvet movie for the third time tonight. Yeah, it's just so weird. For her at that time, that's when she is like really

breaking out. You know, that's around the being John Malcovic type era. Your friends and neighbors? A whole bunch of them. Yeah, that's when she's really breaking out. And then to see her in that situation, that movie, that role in that film is for, that's

for a sitcom star that's trying to do a movie. That's who should be in that. Like somebody that's on a big, huge NBC or ABC show, and now they want to go do a film, and this is the first time we've seen them in this light. But to have her there, you keep waiting for her to do something, and you just go, no, she's just going to kiss the baby and cry the whole movie. And you're like, God damn. It's one of those movies that if they re-edited it, and there's been other movies like that, and I think for Love of the Game is like this, too, where if you just re-editit it with all the parts that we like, And even like maybe beefed up a couple of them.

You could argue you could cut her character out completely. Like she's not even in it. And it's just like Nick Cage is just trying to crack this one case he was given. I don't really care about what his family life is like. It's certainly not that important to the plot at all. It's probably a better movie. I guarantee you you could lose every scene with her and the baby and nothing changes. So here's my argument for Catherine Keener's character and the baby.

Oh, God. Just like in theory, not in practice. is that the whole thing with this dude is that he's a square. Like he lives in Nowheresville. He, like, you see him at the end of the movie. He's just raking leaves. That's going to be his life. And is he able to see what he sees?

Like Max tells him, like, you can't unsee this stuff. And then ever be able to go back to that life and ever be able to go back to this gray anonymous, suburban leaf raking life. And like, or, because when you see him at the end, that character is totally traumatized and shell-shocked. And you know that he's like one day he's just going to go. out for a pack of cigarettes and never come back.

Well, I think you could have accomplished that with just him raking leaves in the last scene. I don't think we did in the 15 Catholic Reader. Oh, Cindy woke up. Oh, she's laughing. It's so bad. She hears your voice. She's laughing.

Oh, she loves you. Yeah, she loves me. It's my fucking daughter. I don't need a telegram. It's weird. The whole thing was weird. So, yeah, that's why this is a flawed rewatchable. but yet a belovedly flawed rewatchable.

So a couple other things. Chris mentioned hardcore with George C. Scott. For people who don't know what this was, late 70s, George C. Scott's still one of the most famous actors of that decade, and they decide to make this movie where his daughter disappears. He has to go to find her. And it turns out she's a porn actress. And the famous scene from it, which I can't believe is a gift,

because it's honestly one of the funniest scenes ever, is him in the movie theater seeing his daughter in a porn in a porn movie and the camera just closes in on him and he's like, oh! Like he's just like having a borderline seizure. He's so upset watching it.

It's like the opposite version of the Matthew McConaughey Interstellar scene where he's like seeing his life in videos that he's missed. It's the bad part of that. So that became the famous scene from that and they basically pay homage to it with Nick Cage when he sees the snuff film.

It's basically all the same beats. But that movie, dives into this late 70s, this seedy porn world that had developed really as soon as, as soon as X-rated movie theaters, all that stuff in New York and L.A. And he goes into it. It's a pretty good movie. It's a lot, I think, more graphic and disturbing in a lot of ways than 8mm is. So this is kind of the spiritual son or daughter of that movie.

I think the difference, the actors in this movie, and I think it's one of the reasons it's such a rewile. It has, I think, the second best Gandalfini movie performance ever. Probably trailing True Romance. I would say True Romance won 8mm, too, where he's just such a sleaze bag, so good. Joaquin Phoenix, I hadn't really considered as a star before I saw this movie. I know we're going to dive into him in a second, but this is a year before Gladiator. I don't think anyone had really, he was still like River Phoenix's brother, child actor, now he's grown up. And in this movie, you're like, wow, who's this guy?

He's a star. Chris Bauer as machine. Chris Bauer was really trying to, he was really, he was on a mission to get typecasts. Because between this and fucking devil's advocate, he wanted to be the sexual pervert face of the 90s. He really did. Well, ironically, this same year he makes 61, the Roger Barrett's Mickey Mantle movie where he plays like Muscooran. So he could be on cable, you can see it. He's machine on one channel.

and then he's like one of the 61 Yankees on the other channel. He eventually becomes Frank Sabaka in the Wire season too. And then he was on Oz as well. Yeah. Very familiar face. And then you have that guy is Dino Velvet.

Peter Stormar. Yeah. You better put some respect on his name. Yeah, man. That's crazy that you played him like that, man. What is he the most known for? Fargo. Yeah, I'm saying I'm not a Fargo guy.

Amy Morton. Wait, wait, wait. Yeah, I know. I know. You're not a Fargo guy. I'm not like a scene at 10 times guy. He's not into Cohen Brothers. You're not into the Cohen.

Really? Has this been flushed out? Like, you don't like the Cohen brothers? To the finest fucking filmmakers. You don't like more fake news from Chris Ryan. It's lame stream media. Tell me your favorite Coen Brothers movies. You like No Country for Old Men.

No Country for Old Men is one of my favorite movies of the last 20 years. And? And then what else? That's really it. Yeah. Norman Redis is also in this about, what, 12 years before the Walking Dead playing the Sleeze. So the casting is great. We got to talk about machine, though.

You know, when we talk about most frightening villains of the last 25 years, or maybe, let's go last 30. So Hannibal Lecter will come up. People will mention Myers and Voorhees, people like that, even though those are, you know, people have been there since the late 70s, early 80s. Spacey in Seven. Jesus, well, great. The guy from Saw, jigsaw, stuff like that. Machine, I feel like, is the underrated,

undervalued, smart person pick for single most frightening villain. Van, why is this guy so terrifying? Because of the reveal when he takes his mask off. That's a terrifying scene. The reason why is because he tells you, there's no explanation for this. this is just straight up mutated perversion.

I can't tell you why, but I love hurting people. Machine is the person that you fear everybody you meet could be. That for no reason, there's just somebody with a glitch somewhere that just likes to fuck people up. There's no explanation for it. You can't, like, wrap your mind around it. And he's never going to stop until you can't. kill him. So throughout the entire movie, there's a mystery around who this guy could be. He's big, he's imposing, he likes to kill, he does all of these things. And then when you see that there's not

some disfigured face, there's not some huge scar, there's not a face full of tattoos or anything grotesque, it's scarier. And that's like a real life fear. All of those other guys are fantasy people, like Freddie Krueger is not real, but machine is. What do you got, Chris? Well, no, I was just going to say that this is a conspiracy movie with no conspiracy. There's really nothing beyond people kind of satisfying their sick desires. And there's not, like, like, Banda's saying, like the scariest part about this movie

is just machines like I did it because I liked it and I did it because I could. And when he asks Christian's lawyer, he's just like, why? Why? And he's like, because he could. Because he could pay for it. This trope of like this sort of like underground sexually deviant community

that's like lurking out. there is like a big one in crime fiction in the 70s, 80s, and it goes all the way up. Like, True Detective Season 1 has got a lot of this stuff in there with like the film and the guy's safe and Woody Harrelson's character, you know, and Matthew Connage's character breaking in to get it and then Woody Harrelson watches it and kills the guy. It's like, this is like a big trope in crime stories and noir stories, but the way it's handled in 8mm is it's like, what if it just has actually no explanation? Well, two other things on top of that.

one phenomenal name, machine. Like, Andrew Kevin Walker, as soon as he came up with that, he must have been like fist pump. I got this. This guy's going to be named Machine. The mask is great. It's one of the best scary, uncomfortable masks. I think any bad guy has worn in a movie.

Like, if you're going through it, like Michael Myers and Halloween won, great one. Vorhees, before he started wearing the hockey mask, when he had that kind of burlap sack over his head with the eye holes, that was really creepy. There's been a couple, but machine is right up there for me. If you saw that person standing outside your door,

you'd have a stroke. Leatherface as well. Didn't Leatherface have a mask? Yeah, Leatherface is a good one, too. Yeah. Let's talk about Phoenix for a second. It's a star-making performance. He's not in the movie for that long.

And it's one of those rare characters where I wish there was more. I texted you guys. totally in for the Max California prequel, the two years leading up to Nick Cage showing up. There's so much going on. I have so many questions about how this guy who worked in this random porn shop

was disinformed on the whole world. He's basically like the Adrian Wojarooski of the CD porn scene in LA. He knows everything. He's got connections left and right. And he's just bringing it too. It's this charismatic, weirdo, CD performance that I got to be honest,

I didn't know he had in him. Because at this point, he's coming off to die for it with Nicole Kidman. Earlier that, he'd been the little kid in parenthood. But this was like an adult performance that I think paved the way. You can, even like Joker, which I think, obviously, he's amazing in, there's a couple seeds of the Joker performance in here where there's something captivating and weird and damaged about this guy. And, Van, do you remember what your opinion on him was before this movie?

Yeah. First of all, I made no connection to the fact that he was a little kid in parenthood until like three years ago. That's how stupid. I've seen that movie dozens of times, but for some reason, his face looks totally different to me. It was all in the eyes. I just didn't know that that was him.

But I do remember him to die for it because I love that movie. He's a behind-the-ey-eyes actor, meaning he's an actor that you're always, there's always something more. And part of what makes him magnetic is as the person viewing the film, you're trying to dig to that. Like, even in Gladiator, in Gladiator, you want to know how

that guy got like that. Yeah. Like, you can guess, but there's something searing behind the performance. You know what I mean? And he does that almost better than anyone. And in this movie, he does it fantastically. Like, he's sitting in there,

he's reading Truman Coppon. Cody. He's acting like he's reading. He ain't no secretary. Oh, right, right. And you want to know how he got there. They explained it a little bit, but not really. Because he's such a well-rounded sort of character,

but you don't get very much of him. And for me, one of the greatest movie tragedies in the 90s is that he died. I always imagine this movie with him surviving. I can't handle the death. So fucked up. What happened to my

boy. But I do really feel like this is the film where I started to become more intrigued with walking Phoenix. Well, the problem is they blew the sequel potential. They ended up making a terrible sequel, but the sequel should have been Max California. They could have at least gotten two more out of those. Where does this rank for you, Chris, favorite Phoenix performances? It's really, it's pretty high up there because I like, I think he's really well used in this movie as a supporting character. Like, you know, you have somebody who's that talented. He doesn't have to carry the movie by being in every scene,

but you get to really enjoy the energy that he brings. Like Andrew Kevin Walker, obviously, if you've seen seven, draws a lot from like classical literature as an inspiration, as an influence,

as a structuring kind of mechanism for his scripts, and seven obviously has its seven deadly sins. And this movie is like, it's basically like the inferno, you know, like, and Joaquin Phoenix's character

is guiding the Tom Wells as Dante like through hell, you know, and it's, it's a great part. And he brings, like, a real, like, Ratso, Rizzo, Dustin Hoffman-y kind of quick-twitch energy to the role that I think you really need. By the time you meet Max, you're kind of like, if Tom Wells is the only person I'm with this entire movie, it might be a tough hang. It's from the moment he shows up, the movie's awesome. Yeah. The entire, I don't know, it's 30, 35 minutes. Every scene he's in is great. Do you think, fan, do you think Max California was his real name or no?

No, he's not. Maybe not. Is that like Italian? No, it's a stage name. He was with the, well, was it, the hard spank. Hard spank was the name of the bed. But it, like, another thing that I just, I love about the character is he's your last warning. Yeah.

He's the guy that goes, okay, he's about to get fucked up. I'm telling you. And he's also kind of like, almost like the remote control scene in funny games. you know like in if if by that point after the remote control scene in funny games you really should cut the movie off because there's nothing else that's going to happen these people are just going to die it's just the weirdest fucking shit you're ever going to see and max is kind of the person to let you know all right once you've met me i'm going to take you to this world and we're going too far are you in or are you i devil changes you yeah he he has my favorite

quote a quote that i've thrown in a many a column since this movie came out in 1999 where he says there's things you're going to see that you can't unsee. They get in your head and they stay there. It's just like, all right, once he says that, hold on. Put your fucking seatbelt on. What columns were you throwing that into? I would throw that in a football stuff for like bad quarterback play. Like Scott Mitchell.

There's some moments with Scott Mitchell that you can't unsee. This had a $40 million budget and made almost $100 million. Really? Yeah. People like this movie. on Wikipedia, people did not like this movie. I mean, not Wikipedia. The critics, Rotten Tomatoes.

Right now it has a rating of 21% on Rotten Tomatoes. Ah, fuck them. And Rotten Tomatoes claims, quote, the consensus is sadistic violence is unappealing and lacking in suspensive mystery. I completely disagree. Roger Ebert also disagreed. Three stars from Rush.

This is a big swing for Raj. He said, I know some audience members will be appalled by this film. anywhere by seven, but it is a real film. Not a slick exploitation exercise without the trappings of depravity, but none of the consequences. Not a film where moral issues are forgotten

in the excitement of an action climax. So I'm guessing he liked the keener scenes. Maybe he wanted a little more keener. Maybe two more scenes are her holding the baby. Also, the movie seems like a little bit of a fuck you to Hollywood for Joel Schumacher. I think it's a fuck you all around. Like, we should probably talk a little bit about

this is not the movie that Andrew Kevin Walker wrote, right? I mean, I think it's worth mentioning that now. I had that for later, but we can do it now. But I think it's worth mentioning at the top that, you know, this was, he's a very red hot screenwriter coming out of seven. And he basically has like an experience with Fincher where Fincher really brings him into the fold and is like you're an essential part of this process. And I think he worked on the game, but was the games before this, right? Yeah, he goes for it on the game.

Yeah. And he winds up doing Sleepy Hollow. And like, not much else in the rest of his career. I'm sure he's done rewrite work. I'm sure he's done ghostwriting work. And I'm sure he's doing very well for himself. I just mean, like, his credits, if you start with seven and eight millimeter and sleepy holly, you're like, this guy's going to be a huge screenwriter for 20 years.

And it winds up being not like that. I think because he had such a negative experience with getting scripts taken away from him, like in the case of eight millimeter. And he's been pretty, he's pretty honest about that. So what happened was the studio wanted this movie. movie to be a little less dark. And Schumacher kind of sided with the studio. And then Walker basically disowned the film, was involved with the set, refuses to watch it.

And he said, he had a whole bunch of stuff. One of the things he said was, here's this movie with my name on it. And just from the trailers I've seen, there are lines I don't want to take credit for. Quote, you dance with the devil, the devil don't change. The devil changes you, end quote. That wasn't my favorite thing. One of the things I'm realizing is how inherently unsatisfying the career of a screenwriter can be. Now, I like the devil line.

So Andrew can fuck off on that one because that was a great line, in a great moment in the movie. So, sorry. But it is funny. I do think this movie kind of turned him off of screenwriting. It was such a bad experience. You know, maybe it just wasn't what it was. So I went the extra yard for this. I actually read his original script because it's on the internet.

Yeah, you can find it. And I got to say, it wasn't that much different than the movie. It really wasn't. The difference was there's this whole child porn piece of it where when Max California takes cage to the underground and they're going to those different places, there's way more child porn. And there's child porn sections.

He's looking at pictures. And part of the eye-opening thing for him is he realizes it's not just about like enema videos and disgusting, shit like that. It's like, holy shit, there's this whole underground pipeline. And then Gandoffini's character is heavy in a child porn. And when he like goes and taps the phone, he sees all this child porn stuff. When he kills him at the end, he takes all, it's basically Gandoffini's trying to destroy all this child porn. And he's the one that lights that on fire. So I think that's what the studio responded to. And, uh, I think Hollywood's going to stay away from heavy child porn subplots.

Yeah, I was going to say it's kind of defensible. Yeah, it's fucking, of course it's defensible. Every fucking four years some dude on some show that you love gets popped with a hard drive full of bullshit. It's just too real. Like, no, I'm not, nah, nothing that has to do. This movie was already incendiary enough

with its subject. I don't want to, I'm not, I wouldn't be why doing this right now if there was a whole child pornography subplot. That's too much on my spirit. It'd be funny if Chris came in right now. It's like, I disagree. I think they needed the child porn. Yeah.

It would be funny. Here's the thing. It's just as depraved without it. I can see why. It's hinted at it. You can get the, like, when he goes through all those little stands, like, you can see that there's some pretty gnarly shit in there. Yeah, we're good.

We're okay with, wow. We have our imaginations to work with, yeah. Yeah. Maybe you could have shown like a little sign for child porn for briefly. I don't know. But anyway, I think this movie was depraved enough, and I think Andrew Kevin Walker needs to calm down. With Schumacher, it goes a little off the rails for him right after this, right, Chris?

Yeah, I mean, he's, I think he lived off the rails. Like, a lot of his movies are kind of like, oh, interesting idea, but really, like, weird stuff happened to that movie. And, you know, we've done a couple of his films. We did Salem's Fire. Yeah. And obviously, I, like, I have a lot of affection for, his bad movies.

Like, I really like flatliners. You know, like, Joel Schumacher was, is kind of my kind of Hollywood director where you walk out of it and you're like, that was all right. But that was like, there was some cool shit in there.

And I think he, I think he probably like pushed things pretty far within the realms of being a studio, like for hire director. So he goes on a run. First of all, he directed DC Cap, which I think is one of the craziest things of all time

with Mr. T. But he does, San Amos Fire. lost boys, flatliners, dying young, falling down. Then he does the client. He does two Batman movies and a time to kill, which I ride for a time to kill. I think that movie's good. I love it, yeah. 8mm 99, also does flawless that same year and then the wheels come off. Then now we move into this phone booth, the Phantom of the Opera, the number 23. And this was really like, as we went in the 21st century, Joel Schumacher kind of got left behind. But

I thought there was a real style to his movies that you could identify with him specifically. We'll go into casting what ifs about how Fincher almost directed this. It starts, though, with Batman and Robin. We should not leave out what an abomination Batman and Robin was. It really changed the trajectory of Hollywood in many ways.

And so he came back a little dark. I was like, oh, maybe he's trying to get it back, but he never really could quite get it back. I'm personally going to ask you, Bill, of one day we can do Lost Boys on rewatchables. I love that fucking movie. Oh, it's on the list. We're into the categories.

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And she kind of deep down knows he wants no part of it. And then he's like, hey, if you had to make a choice. If you had to make a choice, just if you were forced to choose between imagining her out there somewhere, living a good life, being happy. But you don't know. You never find out. the worst being true her being gone but you know you finally know what's happened to her

what would I choose I would choose to know I need to know I think that seems really good and I think that actress is really good because that's kind of a nothing part so I don't know that struck me as

I would say it's the most rewatchable scene in the movie but I think it's kind of important because it's the like the extra layer to this movie that it sometimes has where it's like there's nothing really said between uh miss matthews and tom but like like you said you can tell that she's sort of coming on to him a little bit or is at least like this is the first like other like social interaction i've had in a really long time outside of like my work and coming home yeah just like that whole scene of her like kind of getting dressed up a little bit for dinner and him just being like it's not that it's it's

it's really sad but it's also step in maybe i don't know yeah i mean the interesting thing is that he represents hope to her and she represents depravity and lost to him. So there's this, there's this weird, like, binary thing. Like, she's a world, he's a world to her that she hasn't, she hasn't thought about the fact that her daughter might be alive for so long. And he doesn't know anything about the fact of people running away, never been to her from again and all of that pain. So they're both trying to relate to one another. That really, to me, That grounds the rest of the movie because that's what's pulling him back, that sense of loss and that, like, pain that she feels, I feel like that.

It's strong. I had this in pick and nits for later, but I'm just going to do it now. There's this weird thing that happens in, like, Detective P.I. type movies where the girl's been missing for a while and the person's always like, hey, can I just check out a room? And the parents, like, sure. And somehow that person will always magically find the key piece of evidence that the police who's been doing this case for years, they never think to be like,

hey, we should lift up the toilet. Or, hey, I wonder what would happen if I take this music box and just turn it around and unscrew the back. And it's like, oh, look at this. It's a mother load with the diary, all that stuff. I always enjoy when they do that.

Next rewatchable scene. Look, I could put every Phoenix scene in here, but the first scene when he's reading an anal secretary, but it turns out to be Truman Capote, and he says, can I interest you in a battery operated vagina, like all that stuff.

Like, the movie just takes off, and those two have a real chemistry. Like, it's just really fun to watch those two in the same scene. Sir, I'd like to thank you for shopping at adult bookstore and have yourself a fabulous day. What are you reading? Catch your title.

What are you really reading? Hard to believe that book's got any parts worth highlighting. You know how it is? Yeah. Wouldn't want to embarrass yourself in front of your fellow perverts. That's right. I might get jumped out of the pornographers union. Where would I be then?

My question is, is Anil Secretary, could that be a whole novel? I mean, that's a really great question. You see the Secretary series with different fetishes? Are you really going to do 350 pages of Annel Secretary? Like that was my thing when I watched it. I'm like, it's a novel of Annel Secretary. No, you're not reading that, Doc. You know what I mean?

Are there novels like that? Yeah, who's the audience? for a little idea. Who's like, you know, the thing is like I really need

to get my porn in novel, a hardcore pornography in novel form. Right. It's a lit major who's gone through the dark side. The,

the next one is one of my favorites. The second and third Phoenix cage scenes together where, first of all, outside in the parking lot when he kind of convinces him to do it

and he's like, I make 400 a week. He's like, bullshit. And they have that whole back and forth with that. And then he takes,

a man does the things you can't unsee, dance with the devil, devil won't change. And then Phoenix goes to that one place and he goes, Tienes, pelliculus de snuff, that fucking kills me. They think they find the snuff film.

They're watching them and it turns out it's the same actress in both and Phoenix says snuff to the resurrection. Yeah. All of that is just humming. Plus we get to go to this weird world. When they figure out it's the same girl,

they're both like, oh yeah clutch you did it it's just like you're still watched a snuff movie you know what I mean like you need to you gotta take a step back this isn't like Aaron Rogers converting on third down like you are watching a snuff movie yeah some of the

some of the places they go because the thing when you're especially in the 90s when you're watching this you have a vague sense that these places exist right that and maybe now in the internet porn era maybe you don't need places like this in the same way but you have this vague sense like oh yeah I'm sure there's some

in some abandoned building where there's where you're just walking around there's different categories in the sickest shit in the planet but you don't know if that's true and in this movie it's like yeah it's true this is there's some dark shit out there um next one rewatchable is uh nick cage calling gandolphini when he's spying on him plebony phillipity phill's eddie yeah i know all about it yeah you know all about what about that girl Six years ago I know what you did to her What is this?

You murdered her. You and your friends. I know what the fuck you're talking about. You killed her on film. And now you're fucked. You're all fucked. You're all fucked. And that Gando Fini just scrams out.

He's so good in that scene. And this was when he's doing, I think Sopranos launched the same year. So it's like this amazing Gandalfini breakout year, but he's just really good in that. What a fucking scumbag he plays in this movie. He is such a piece of shit in this movie. He's worse than Machine and the other guy because he's like almost like the pervert translator or just the sleazy money grubbing piece of crap.

He's terrible. Yeah, somehow he's worse in this movie than he was in true romance. Yeah. Which is hard to destroying her. Next one. The big confrontation scene. There's a long day.

If there's no honor among purvets and bonographers, the whole fucking business would fall apart, because there's no records, there's no contracts, no legal recourse. So if someone

cheats us, that person can't be trusted. That person could turn us in, have us killed, so we don't have a choice, do we? It's the long day. So we can lump all this together,

but everything about how they do this, the meat district, the location. It's the last 45 minutes of the movie, yeah. Yeah, Dino Velvet, he's just going for it. Machines there, hello, machine, love your work. Him confronting the lawyer. I'm trying to understand. Doing the Nick Cage thing.

Because he could. He did it because he could. Because he could. Everything. And then him coming back, him with the one bullet, the way he's kind of surveying it, then realizes the move is to shoot the handcuffs off and run.

That's just a great 10 minutes. It's really gripping stuff. And then immediately to the next one, when he calls Mrs. Christian. Mrs. Christian, the film is real. Mrs. Christian, it's Tom Wells. Longdale is dead. He was killed by the men who made the film.

He hired them for your husband, kept most of the million for himself. The film is real. They killed that girl. And she's like, cool, I'm going to go kill myself now. My husband was a scumbach. Next one is Cage kills Gandalfini. Look, not the most fun scene.

It's where this movie is basically like Death Wish. You know, you mean like, yeah. The reason I think this is great is Gandalfini, when he's kind of taunting him to kill it, he starts licking the gun. Like, he's fucking out of control in that scene. He's really like out of control. What do you want me do? You want me start crying?

Like a little baby. I'm suicide. Sorry, I killed a little girl. Fuck you and fuck her. Go ahead. Put me into my fucking misery. Pull the fucking trigger. Come on.

Come on pull the fucking trigger. Do it. He's out overacting Nick Cage. Right. He said, fuck it, bro. I got like a high card wins. I'm going even, you can't outdo me. And the weird thing is I always love scenes like that where the guy is like begging to get shot.

Fucking do it, pussy. Come on. I love those scenes because I'm like, well, what if he does it? You're dead. That actually would be, I hope there is a super cut somewhere on YouTube of someone being held

with a gun to their head being like, shoot them, shoot me, shoot me. Well, he raised Cage's level because it leads to Cage's best overacting in the movie when he calls the missing girl's mom. I want to hurt them. I want to punish them for what they did.

Please give me your permission to punish them. It's Cage goes, off the rails for like 30 seconds. Now let's think about that scene because I did this. I ran it back like three times. Let's think about what that scene really is. That scene is a guy with a gun. He's going to kill a guy.

It's all the way jacked up. He stops and goes outside to make a phone call. Yeah. Right? In the middle of getting ready to kill someone, gets permission, and then comes back inside, like all superheroed up and kills the dude. how the fuck does that get like that's fucking crazy to me like it's crazy this is also like his character overthinks this moment way too much way too much he lets eddie get into his head about like yeah you know

your d and your your your fingerprints it's your bullet you're gonna have to dig it out for me and like you know like it's like dude when the cops find you and they find your like stash here and they don't have to like look that hard to find out what you did for a living do you really think that they're going to spend like a lot of overtime trying to figure out what happened to you? Come on, man. In the deleted scenes, he's calling her for like three hours. You can't get a hold of her.

She keeps leaving message. Hey, oh, this is Matthews. I just said one question. It's only important that you call me back. She's called me back right away. This is Tom. The last rewatchable scene. Cage versus Machine.

The grandmother goes on some Christian casino runner or wherever she goes on the school bus. And machine's like, cool, I'm getting it on. I'm going to place some Danzig and turn all the lights off and get my freak on cagewalks, great fight scene, pouring rain. They go at it and machine does the... You know the best part of killing someone. The look on their face.

It's that look. Not when they're threatened. Not when you hurt them. Not even when they see the knife. But when they feel the knife go in. That's it. It's surprise. I just can't believe it's really happening to her.

She had that look. When she knew it wasn't just porno, you feel how hard I am. You get... And then, the reveal of, do you feel a hard I am or whatever he says, it's like, oh, this is getting really crazy now.

This guy's got a fucking boner. He's about to kill the page. What is happening? And then Cage finally turns table and mass him, does the what you expect. the monster. My name's George. I wasn't beaten. Wasn't blessed. And as Van said, that's the creepiest part. It's like, oh, this guy's

just a normal guy who's completely depraved and lost his mind. That seems great. Yet a lumberjack, because what a perfect knife throw. You know what I mean? Machines got some fucking skills as a killer, too. throws a knife at Nick Cage. I think the most rewatchable

is when Phoenix and Cage, the second and third scenes together, when they kind of dive into the world and some of the That's my favorite part of the movie. What do you guys have? I just want to shout out the Dino Tom Max meeting when they go to give him money

when they hire him to make them a custom movie and Dino's just like, I have to put my thinking cap on. And it's just so gross. And he's like, I want to film you the way the light hits your face and all that stuff. And them talking about different Dino Velvet movies like choke or devil. and devil excited me as much as it scared me and stuff.

Like, I love that scene. But it's probably, it's probably the meatpacking district, like the showdown with the crossbow and shit. Right. What do you got, Van? So I like, the showdown with the crossbow to me is the best. But more to the point when you realize that Dino knows that Nicholas Cage isn't on the level. You know what I mean?

And they're, they've planned for it. Because at this point, the one thing that the movie has done a really good thing of establishing is that Nicholas Cage is really smart. He's really a fantastic investigator. And nobody's been like ahead of him. But Dino and them, they're so perverted, but they're also very cunning. So I like that saying.

Also, I love in movies the trope. I just love it whenever the movie switches and goes to L.A. And they show you how fucked up and perverted L.A. is, by the way, I've been here for like 16 years. And I have yet to really get into that L.A. I don't think that it's, it wasn't even there. era 99. They talked about how there is no like L.A. Red Light district

the way that like when he first comes to L.A. and it's just like all you can eat buffet. It's not like that. And people are licking at him as he, I've never been driving down the street and had someone like licked their tongue out like, hey big boy, want a good time. It has never happened. So I just love it because that's in multiple

movies as soon as they get to out of Los Angeles and Sodom and Gamara, but I just love that they did that here. I had that in so we're moving to what stage the best. I had that as in what's the best. The Nick Cage made it to LA and now he's checking out LA's CD World with that crazy music

they're playing and the way they film that. But here's the thing. They made up the whole neighborhood. Like I said it was in the research. They kind of patched together a couple different places and then made up a couple other and made it seem like oh this is the red light day.

LA doesn't have a red light district. It's supposed to be like Times Square and like you know the late 70s meets Amsterdam and it doesn't exist. It doesn't have. They tried to make it seem like there's this stretch on Hollywood Boulevard where that's where it was, but it's not. And it doesn't exist. But I still think that's a really good scene. Morewood's age the best.

I really like Mrs. Christian. Just a nice lady. Oh, she's amazing. Just wanted to mourn her dead husband and finds this snuff film and then just wants to make sure that this wasn't really a film. And then it turns out it was. And she's just like, my God, my whole life spent a lie and kills herself. But nice lady, though. Shout out to her for just staying involved with the work.

I really want to bring back phone call status reports. Like I want to start calling Bill and me. Bill, it's Chris. Chris Ryan. I'm working on a blog post about the Sixers. They got Seth Curry. The only scene in the movie that's missing to me is the scene where she watches the film. Because think about it.

She goes into the thing and she sees all of this stuff. She might think that this is a film of her kids, you know, grandkids playing. It would have been in the safe. Right. Just think about how the horror that she went through when it really started going down on the 8mm reel. So I think about that. This is an important point because I had it in what's age the worst, which we'll get to later.

But you can lose the first eight minutes of this movie and you lose literally nothing. There's this whole other thing that I guess is supposed to establish what a good investigator is. There's the first terrible, needless, Catherine Keener scene. You could have started the movie with the, old lady finding the tape, putting it in and just her face, you know, and then you get to Nick Cage just arriving at the house and then we're off. I think that would have been a smarter way to do it. Morewood's age the best. Look, it's hard to say what Nick Cage's greatest overacting of all time was in a movie. I mean, lots of candidates all over the map. But him watching the stuff

film for the first time doing the George Scott impersonation is way up there. He's like jerking. His eyes are going crazy. He's throwing his hand over his face. He's really going for it in that scene. Another what's age the best. Phoenix says there are only three rules of life. One, there's always a victim. Two, don't be it.

And three, I can't remember the third. Some good Andrew Kevin Walker right there. That was in the original script. What's age the best? The Clevelander. Yeah. Chris pointed this out at the top. They don't have the Levitard show studio yet.

No. But you can make it. a case Levitard could dress up as machine for the 25th anniversary of this movie. Do you think Levitart seen 8mm? There's no way. You know? There's no way he's seen. You don't think so?

I don't think so. Lebitard is machine in a way. I think Stugat's definitely seen it and is probably listening to this podcast right now. Morewood's stage the best. Anthony healed as the scumbag lawyer. So he's a that guy. I think most super movie nerds know it's Anthony healed. We remember him from working at the mental hospital or the criminally insane.

in silence, yeah, it sounds like that. Right, so he's either Lecter's doctor or the guy from this movie depending on how you feel about it. He's probably Lecter's doctor will be the first role in his obituary, but he played the specific I'm better than you, complete

scumbag character about as well as anybody. I really like this guy. Yeah, yeah, that seems somehow okay with like the same trait that's in a guy that seems to be comfortable with sharing space with Hannibal Lecter

is the same trait in a guy that seems to be comfortable being around a wealthy billionaire who would actually have a young girl killed he plays that really well like I'm okay with depravity even though I might not be deprived I have a huge question about this guy's character

though we can save it for probably unanswerable questions the only other wood one stage the best I have that we haven't mentioned yet is just I like that this movie has specific well-written scenes you know, like that scene we mentioned earlier

where he goes to see the mom the second time and these little touches in that. The scene when he goes to see Marian Matthews' boyfriend from when she was 16 and what a scumbagged that guy is and just that three minutes

and him putting out the cigarette. It's a well-written movie that obviously went off the rails a little bit, but I think there's some good meat. I have to say I've watched a lot, a lot of detective movies you can actually pretty well follow how he figures this case out.

Now, like, there's, you know, like from getting like the superlux and like figuring out what the film is, getting the film blown up, finding the tattoo, like each little piece, like, you know, and you see him go through various other, like people auditioning for the role of Max,

California when he's going to all these bookstores, it kind of does set up, like, where you kind of like see the tedium of what a private detective must have to do. Right. When he's looking at all the photos, of the missing kids for however long that was. Yeah.

What's age the best for you guys? I guess machine has to be in here too. And I would just probably say like just the conspiracy with no real answers. Like this massive thing where there's actually like there's no there's no like logic to it. It's just that these people want it to do it. Ben, anime movies for you? What's age the best? Jesus Christ.

Obviously, it's crazy that like porn is aged so well. Like you're talking about that movie hardcore. or, you know, the guy has to go on the journey to see his daughter's porn. Now all he's got to do is click the link in her Instagram. He'll go right to her only fans. He can see it all right there and have that moment in the privacy of his own living room.

No, but to me, like to me, what's aged the best is kind of just like the desperation of the movie. Like, I feel it's like it's a very desperate film. And maybe not the best time for me to be watching it, like just with the kind of the state of the world right now, it feels a little different. But it just feels desperate and everyone feels desperate in the movie

and that seems like his age fucking pretty well. What's age the worst? Again, throughout the first eight minutes, he lose absolutely nothing. Every Catherine Kiener's scene, I think, is age the worst. Not enough Max California and the decision to murder him.

We covered that. That's age the worst. I just don't think he needs to die, even though... Yeah, I know you need it for... wanted to kill him either. Yeah, you'd for dramatic impact,

I need it. Oh, another what's aged or worse is just like porn now compared to porn in the late 90s. This movie makes so much less sense

in 2020 because you would do everything, you know, on the internet. It would basically be like a hacker movie. Like, you'd just be like trying to figure out like who was downloading

what, who was sending you. Should this have been the original black hat, Chris? Is this what Michael, Michael Man should have done? Jesus. With Hemsworth?

No, I was, I think I'd prefer to watch a movie about nuclear power plants being compromised. Yeah. Any other what's aged the worst? No, but I do have a...

Porn has come a long way. It has. I think we should take pause and like... And salute porn? Tip our hat. I remember because it was around the same time when the Pamela Anderson, Tommy Lee, uh, porn came out.

Do you realize that in order for me to get that sent to my dorm? I had to call a person on the telephone. I had to talk to a. a human person. I have to call a person and be like, yeah, it's me, Van Lathen, here at Louisiana Tech University, send me porn. Did you do, do you remember that was like a money order

transaction or a credit card or what? It was a credit card and I had to, and the thing about it was, you couldn't, it wasn't just, it was like Frito Lay. They weren't just going to let you leave with one. They were like, listen, hey, I know you should go like this. We got Kobe Tai and Asia Carrera, Jenna Jamison, going

fucking crazy. Like, fuck it. Give me that one too. Before you know, You spent 300 bucks of your parents' money, and then it takes six weeks for it to get there. So all of this is around the same time. Things have really changed. Shout out to that industry. They figured it out. And on that note, let's take a break.

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Your car, your timeline, your terms. Visit Carvana.com to sell your car today. Carvana. Pick up fees may apply. Casting what ifs. This is a big one. They brought this to Fincher initially and tried to do basically the seven sequel and Fincher wasn't interested. Chris, this movie has a Fincher movie, your thoughts.

He's your favorite director. I don't know that it would have been any that much better. I'm sure it would be good and great. And I just think that there is an element to the one of the things I like about Fincher is that even though he has core themes and core things that he returns to,

he's always evolving and changing like the kinds of stories he's telling. And I do feel like this would have been a little bit of a retread with seven and even the game to some extent. I think it's a, that's interesting. I think it's a fundamentally different movie with Fincher because I think different choices are made all around.

But I don't think Nicholas Cage is to star this movie if David Fincher directs it. I think it's in a different way. And just, you know how you could like, you know how you can feel, seven? I don't know how to articulate. It's tactile. It's like all the details of seven and like insert shots and stuff.

Yeah. Like seven is like it sticks to you to where like it webs up your brain. I think if that, if this movie had a little bit of a little bit more of that, I think it would have been not just better, but probably more longer lasting. maybe more affecting. I love Fincher, too, by the way.

Another one is Russell Crow was initially the lead in this. Yeah. And it was supposed to be kind of like a little bit grittier and low budget if he was going to be the lead. Because there was a time when Nicholas Cage was a bigger star than Russell Crow. Yeah, it's kind of amazing. They decided they'd go bigger budget and they needed Cage. And what's funny is they missed the Crow thing by a year. Yeah.

Crow's better in this movie. He's at such a great point of his career. He's about to rip off one of the best four-year runs of any actor. The insider. Yeah, they could have had him pretty early. Apparently on the internet, who knows if this is true, but Mark Wahlberg turned down Max California. That would have been weird, especially coming three years,

two and a half years off of Boogie Nights. He's too slow for this. Yeah, I'm not sure. Max California don't have that type of discipline. He don't be in the gym. You know what I mean? Like, yeah, he's too slow. And there was a lot of people mentioned for Dino Velvet,

but who knows if that's true. They also, they said Freedcan and Paul Verhoeven were also approached to direct that. That all tracks like it, you would have, but I don't know how real it is. That's like,

this movie has a lot, it doesn't have a lot of like confirmed rumors. It's just sort of like, yeah, they offered it to Mel Gibson. It's like, I guess, yeah. I did figure out a way

to make this movie weirder, though. I did this last night while I was watching it again. What is it? Watch this movie and then imagine John Travolta as the lead. Yeah. That's fucked up.

Like, imagine John Travolta in the Nick Cage role. And just things, like, literally, it's 15 minutes before things just lose their fucking heads. He just goes over the top. Because that was the time when he was realizing, yo, the luck has run out. There's a lot of stuff about how hard it was for them to find a director because of the subject matter. So Schumacher was basically like the 17th person. They picked. Next category is the Joey Pance Award, best that guy.

So I'm going to nominate. This is a fucking deep pull, but they go into one of the seedy shops, and there's that really tall blonde guy with the long hair wearing like the S&M outfit, and he's got like the sweetestead. He's tweaking his nipples, yeah. Yeah, and he's just super disturbing for 20 seconds. Same guy is Adam Sandler's doctor and funny people. Oh, shit.

Yeah. You win, Bill. Oh, the, yeah. That you definitely win because I'm looking at him. I'm like, yo, I know him. Yeah. We're like where he, that, that's good. I was going to say Amy Morton or Norman Reattis, but you just, you walk off homered it.

I had Norman Redis or the lawyer guy because the lawyer guy was the same dude from silence. But nah, that's fucking crazy. Yeah. Vincent Hanna, give me all you got a word. There's only one nominee. It's Nick Cage during the torturing Gandalfini making the phone call scene where he dials it up to 17 out of 10. You're right, but to, you're a racing stormar here. I'm saying that's who I thought it was clear.

That dude is walking around with the sickest goate ever or whatever that facial hair is. He's got a velvet robe on and he is just, he never does a single normal line reading. And that's one. I couldn't agree more. I thought even when he gets shot in his neck

and he starts going, I thought I would die in a much more cinematic way than this. I'm like, yo, this motherfucker crazy. How could it be more cinematic? You shot a guy with a fucking Crossbow. With a crossbow and a reflex shot back. That's some Indiana Jones shit.

It don't get no more cinematic than that. But I thought he was way up there, man. I think you guys convinced me. It's hard to imagine anyone topping Nick Cage, but considering Dino Velvet, the entire movie is overacting. Maybe that's the right answer. Dian Waiters Award, Dieno Velvet, also eligible. I'm going to say Phoenix isn't eligible.

I think he's in, just, slightly too much of the movie. Is Gandalfini eligible? Gandoffini's eligible Machine and Mrs. Christian, I think, our final four. I'm going to go Gando. Yeah.

I would say Gando, too, because this is a part that in the wrong hands with the wrong actor, it just is not going to have the same impact, and he really does it amazingly. I'm with Gando, too. I'm with Gando, too, although Mrs. Christian is a very, very, very fascinating choice as well.

I'm with Gando. Recasting couch. So my recasting couch decision is simple. I would recast the part with Nick Cage's wife and not have her in the movie. I would replace her with nothing. Right. With just, I would get rid of every scene.

Is there anybody else who would recast, Chris? Well, you know, we can kind of collide this with casting what ifs because I have like an interesting suggestion for this now. All right. Save it. Okay. have fast internet research. We covered some of this stuff. The only other thing I wanted to mention was

Eddie's driving a Stutz Black Hawk in this movie, which is a pretty prestigious 70s, 80s car. Elvis owned one. Sinatra owned one. It's kind of way too expensive for what a scumbagged this guy was. So everything else we mentioned.

Apex Mountain. Cage, I'm going to say no. I think it was right after he won the Oscar when he's ripping off. $200 million action movies Schumacher, no. Joaquin Phoenix, definitely not. Gendolfini

has Sopranos year one at the same time of this movie, but I don't think he hits his apex yet. I still think he's, it's Sopranos hadn't become a phenomenon yet. Yeah, I think his apex is at the peak of Sopranos. Yeah, he was one of the biggest stars in the world. Chris Bauer? Tough.

He's Sabraca. He's Sabaca to most people. And you also don't see his face except for the very end. Yeah, I'm going to say no. Seedy porn shops. Ooh. I can't think of very many CD porn shops that go on. Cinematically, you're probably right. Probably right.

Yeah, I had it as the Apex Mountain for Snuff Film movies. I think... I had that next. Snuff Films. I was trying to think of a better Hollywood treatment with the snuff film plot and could not come up with one. So I think you would say yes.

And then I think this is Apex Mountain for this fake part of El that was Times Square that didn't actually exist. Oh, yeah. If you're recreating CDLA and making shit up, it never got better than this. Early Meat District before it became a cool place to live and completely transformed.

It's in the running. I still think Fatal Attraction, though, I think did a better job with the Meat District. And then you could argue, what was the other one, unfaithful with Diane Lane? Oh, yeah. The Meat District's been used correctly. Yeah, it changed when they started building those fancy hotels

down like the Gainesvert and Gainesvort and whatever. Pickin'nitz. Again, Catherine Keener, great actress, but doesn't need to be in this movie. Why didn't the lawyer undermine Nick Cage during this entire process? It's a hard one after you watch this movie a few times. Why doesn't the lawyer burn the film when he opens the safe? Why didn't he just get rid of it? The lawyer has somebody open the safe.

He sees he's got stocks and bonds and yada yada. Unless Mrs. Christian is standing behind him and is like, what's that movie? he could have just destroyed it. Oh, he could have just been like, yeah, that's a, that's a, that's 1970s Cincinnati Reds game film. Right. He was a huge fan. Either that, there's a, if you're that, there's a bunch of different ways. Hey, we, we're going to take it a look at it because it's

old film and it needs to be processed. You don't know anything about this. By the way, and then she, hey, what happened to that movie? It didn't work. Yeah. There's too many things that you could do for him to kind of go along with this whole ruse. And if this guy was so smart, Mrs. Christian wants to hire somebody to investigate all of this. You just get like your friend Bob. Hey Bob, will you pretend to be a PI for

20 minutes with this old crazy lady and just say you're going to go look for the film and then we'll call her in a month and be like, hey, we couldn't find anything, sorry. Bad job by the lawyer. Nick Cage's technology in 1999 with the digital imagery he was able to pull off

and cutting things out and these perfect pictures of things and stuff. I just, I was alive in 1999 and we did not have this stuff. I was still, I think I was still dialing into AOL on my, to get emails and shit like that. I don't know where he had that kind of technology, but

it always jumps out of me. Am I crazy on that one? They kind of allude to it. He goes to a place that you can see the Cinerama Dome across the street, no arc light. I love stuff like that. Yeah. And they kind of allude to the fact that it took a long time and a lot of effort and a lot of money to do it.

And all he got was one was one picture. I see what you're saying, but they kind of alluded to the fact that they were pushing the limits of their technological sort of capability there. This is also around the time period when they did, you know, like, Enemy of the State where they were just like, nobody really knows what the Internet can do so we can kind of say it can do anything. Yeah. Yeah, that's true. That is like, I mean, the net was the net in disclosure, enemy of the state, this movie, whatever was going on in the Internet in Hollywood was not happening in real life in any respect. But we kind of were like, well, maybe it is

happening. Maybe the government knows how to do this. Yeah, like, if you watch enemy of this date, it's just like the national security agency is listening to all of your phone calls all of the time. And it can access any security camera, turn it 180 degrees. Guys, question? Is that bullshit? I don't think that's bullshit. I mean, I'm not saying it's bullshit,

but it's not like some dude in a trailer doing it. It's like Gene Hackman. It's like AI is doing that or something. Yeah, right. I never really understood how Max California knew so much about the underground porn scene. I mean, it's a tight-knit community.

Yeah. Apparently. Any other pick of nits for you guys? Yeah, I got a couple. We've bagged on the Catherine Keener relationship. Again, shout out to Catherine Keener. Just a bad, bad look here. But the one nitpick I have, very specifically about the relationship between Cage and Keener,

is when he comes home for the first time, he's like, hey, hi, honey, how is the textbook business? And it's like, no one has ever said that to their significant other. whatever walks in the door and says, hello, how is name occupation? Like, to that person. Right. Right. Yeah, that's tough. It's a tough relationship. Also, my only other nitpick is I really like the guy did the score for this movie, Michael Dana, like, and he did Moneyball, which is probably one of my favorite soundtracks.

But there's no reason why it's got this vaguely Middle Eastern tinge to it. Which comes back over and over and over. And it's just like always like we're in Marrakesh for some reason. And I kind of was just always like you could just have done this with like the cool taxi driver, like noir soundtrack. And it would have been probably like 5% better. My only knit was that they have a beautiful shot of Miami with beautiful people. And I'm sitting here thinking, yo, man, I just can't wait to things get back to normal. So I head out of Miami and get back to the bullshit.

You know what I mean? I mean, when I say this, beautiful ladies, beautiful, like the whole deal, and that's like Miami in the 90s when it was really Miami, right? Yeah. And then this motherfucker comes back to his wife. I hate it there.

I'm so glad to be back in this 65 degree weather, overcast, trench coat shit. It's always fall. This is where I want to be. Fuck the surf and the swim and toppless models on South Beach. I'm like, dog, like, shut up.

No, you don't mean that. Like, really, you're, your, your, your, Doth protests too much. You were down there, getting it popping at the Clevelander for two or three days, you hit Mickey Beach. You know what I'm saying? The whole nine.

So I don't, you can't, that's why you was down there smoking. The whole nine, living your best life is bullshit to me. It's kind of, that little bit of him smoking and her and him lying to her about smoking all the time is like a cool little, like what's going on with this relationship, really? Yeah. Maybe I'm back in on Keener. I'm back in on that relationship.

My only other date was, he's kind of a terrible PI in the sense of he doesn't like wear a hat he's never like when he goes to infiltrate Gandal Feeney's filming that porn and he's just kind of stumbling around he's not he's not disguising himself

in any way just kind of weird it's like you're undercover dude also no narration no no inside of his own mind narration no I knew something was wrong by the way he was reading anal secretaries you know what I mean so none of that If you're a QuickBooks customer looking to grow your business without the growing pains, you need the Intuit ERP.

Upgrade to Intuit Enterprise Suite in a matter of hours. It's the AI Native ERP from the makers of QuickBooks. Learn more at Intuit.com slash ERP. Next category is, could this be remade as a 10-episode Netflix show? And my answer is, yes, please. Let's do a 2020 version of this now. Enough people haven't seen this movie yet that I kind of can't believe this hasn't happened. I think that the, you know, we were texting about this, but the, it's the prequel that I'm curious about.

The Max California prequel? I want the Dino Velvet. I want to know, like, how Dino Velvet goes from being like, I'm going to be the next Spielberg to like wearing a Velvet robe. Right. Yeah. Yeah. I also want to know who Dino Velvet has beaten before because he loses to, to, to, uh, to Nicholas Cage's character, right? Yeah.

But it's obvious that that's not his first. because he's beaten some other Johnny come lately. He's trying to come around and disturb his. Maybe you put an LAPD Vice Officer on Dino Velvet. I don't know, that's some guy, whoever that is, Patrick Wilson or someone. They go back and forth. And then you see how crafty Dino Velvet really is. Make this movie as a Netflix, Hulu, Amazon, or HBO Mac show.

Just fucking get it done, please. Probably in answerable questions. So he fights machine, great fight scene. leaves machine with a knife sticking out of his chest, basically, and stumbles back in his car, drives to the hospital to get stitched up. Machines just in the cemetery, that's it? What happens?

Is there an investigation? Do the neighbors find him? What do the next 24 hours look like that? Does grandma come back from the casino? It's just, and it's just tidily, all of a sudden, he's raking leaves. It's like, yeah, that was good. We don't have, there's no sort of investigation. Did he have to kill a machine?

Does he have to answer for any of this? Did they tie him to the other crimes? Right. Very strange. Any other unanswerable questions for you guys? Because we covered pretty much everything. Can they not come up with a better name of a porn shop where Max works aside from adult bookstore?

Because at the end, he's like, thank you for visiting adult bookstore and he gives him the receipt. You guys couldn't come up with like, Bob's Adoltsor? The Pleasure Hut or, like, Pleasure Island or, something like that. You guys had to just be like adult bookstore. Yeah. When we create our adult bookstore, Chris, we'll have like a very, very cool

name. All right. Next category. That's where it's called the black hat. The black hat. What piece of memorabilia would you want from this movie? Oh, machines mask. Jesus Christ. Dino's robe. Dino's robe. Yeah. Van would do the mask?

I do machines mask. Because then I could put it on. Well, I have some news for you. There's a website called Prop Bay, which is like eBay for movie props. Why do I feel like you... It's not your first time being at this movie. You can go for it. You could

show your lady and be like, hey, Van, something came in the mail for you. It was like, oh cool, machine's mask is here. You know, you know it would be better? I wouldn't even if the machines mask came to the house and it came, I wouldn't even I wouldn't open it. I'd have her open it. I'd be like,

it's like, that's the better way. The better way is oh, this came for you from Prop Bay. Yeah. go ahead and open it up. You might want to know what's inside there. Go ahead and open it. Then she opens it. I'm like, yeah, that's the point we're at now.

And then that's dope. Let me tell you something. A very creepy page, because they have like this shot of the machine mask and it's disturbing. I almost couldn't unsee it, Chris. Callback line. Who won the movie?

So I think it's Phoenix. I know that it would just be, Cage is the obvious choice and maybe even, you know, you could say like Schumacher for getting this movie made at all. But I think Phoenix is far away. the best part of the movie. He's got, he gives it like an edge and a sort of like reality that

it, I don't know what would have had otherwise. And I would go this far. I would love to see this movie, because Andrew Kevin Walker has said like I would, I would prefer this movie. I would love for this movie to get remade like my original script, my original script. They should remake it. And Cage and Phoenix should swap roles. Phoenix should play the detective. And then Cage should be this washed up, fucked up old guy working at a and an adult bookstore who's like seen it all and knows it all. Wow.

Or Nick Cage could be Dino Velvet. His son. That's true. Or his father, Jack Velvet. Right, right. Who do you have, Van? Yeah, for me, I had Joel Schumacher just because I'm thinking

with my comic book nerd brain first and I remember just how, you know, he destroyed Batman and Robin and everything. And he comes back and makes a movie that's pretty well received and buys himself some more time. But really in my heart or heart, just as a character, forget about the dude.

I want to give this movie to Machine. I love Machine. Machine is really, and that's the fucked up part about it, Machine should have survived. I know Max California should have survived, but Machines should have survived, and we should have got two or three movies of this Cage versus Machine thing.

Because Machine is such a great, scary movie horror villain, and I love that at the end. So really, my heart of hearts, Machine won. You know, you could have come out of this movie and conceivably twisted it so Phoenix never dies and Machine never dies. We see them, we think they're dead.

Right. But maybe that would have been the twist for the sequel, because they did make the sequel, which we're not going to discuss. But I'm with you. Machine was one of my favorite scary characters the last 25 years. And there's a way you keep him around.

And maybe he gets out of jail seven years later. He's like, I'm getting back to my roots, man. Running a B machine. I had it 1A, 1B. I had Phoenix as the winner because for the 35 minutes he's in this movie. You're just like, who the fuck is that? It's just awesome.

I had machine as 1B just because it was such a distinct character. But I think Phoenix won the movie, which is interesting because didn't we, when we did Gladiator, didn't we have a Phoenix versus Crow argument for that who won the movie? Yeah. I mean, he's one of those talents. It's pretty undeniable. Like when you see, yeah, and when you see him, you're just like, this guy's stuff is so electric.

It's not even close. He kicked fucking Russell Crow's ass. Shout out to Maximus. He is fantastic in that movie. Yeah. Like, fantastic. Last question before we go. 2,021, 8mm.

Who's the detective? Who's the lead? Who is it? Oh, good question. Oh, man. Search the cortexes of your mind. It's got to be somebody who's like probably early mid-30s. I think you could mess around with it though.

Like I think you could make it like Rosario Dawson. You know what I mean? Like I think you could like you could make the detective some and have it come from like a different perspective a little bit. Chris, you went woke right there, huh? That's what I'm talking about? I didn't know. Chris, Chris, you went woke right there. Okay.

With the diversity. university. It's funny. I'd like the same thing. I had this is this is an interesting Michael B. Jordan vehicle. I'm about to you know what mine was? I was about to say Tom Hardy. That was I was I was going to say.

Tom Hardy is a great one. He would go too weird. He would just be way too weird. Tom Hardy. You guys are like, you know what I think we should do? I think we should have Viola David. I just said like you guys. That's my old day. Way to go. I actually think

this is the kind of movie, Michael B. Jordan should be trying to do. He needs to get his freak on in one of his next choices. He can't just be, you know, superhero movies and like Just Mercy thing, Creed, like sports money. He needs like a freaky choice.

That was why I was thinking to him. The more interesting part is who's the Phoenix character because that's Max California, especially if we're keeping him around, that becomes such a pivotal role for this. Machine could be anybody. The rest of them, I guess Gandalfini, the Eddie character, I don't know what that ends up being.

Maybe MacCalfourne would be, wouldn't it be, what's the kid's name? Timothy Shalameh or whatever? Oh, yeah. He's too big now, but like that would be a good role for him. But that honestly, a good choice for him, though, because he's another one who needs to get weird with a movie. Lucas Hedges would be a good, Max, California.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's a good one. Lucas Hedges is good. All right. Guys, we did it. We talked about 8mm. I don't think there was ever a better Thanksgiving present for America than this.

Give thanks for Turkey. Hopefully the pandemic will end at some point. 2021 is not that far away. And Machine and Max California. That should be your giving thanks to the table. Chris Ryan Van Lathen, thank you. That's it for the rewatchables.

Don't forget book of basketball is coming at you later this week. Also two more BS podcast. Don't forget about Recipe Club, Gamblers, and the Ringer Music Show are three latest new release podcasts. and we will see you back here in a week. I'll tell you the movie. You can watch it over Thanksgiving vacation. Wall Street.

Charlie Sheen and Michael Douglas. Oliver Stone's classic. That is coming on Monday. So you have a week to watch it. It's on Amazon. You can even watch the sequel. That's on there too if you have Amazon Prime. It's for free.

Enjoy the holidays. See you back here to week.