The Rewatchables - 'And Justice For All' With Bill Simmons, Sean Fennessey, and Wesley Morris

Episode Date: July 21, 2023

The Ringer's Bill Simmons and Sean Fennessey and The New York Times's Wesley Morris are out of order in their revisit of the 1979 mystery-drama 'And Justice For All' starring Al Pacino, Jack Warden, and John Forsythe. Hosts: Bill Simmons, Sean Fennessey, and Wesley Morris Producer: Isaiah Blakely Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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That's right. And justice for the big picture. You cannot find Wesley Morris because he won't work for us anymore. We worked from a Grant Land. Didn't want to stay with us. Can I work for you? He left. Are you opening up a shop?

No. Why would I do that? I don't know. He's at the New York Times, but he's still a member of the family. He's been part of courtroom month. How's your courtroom month experience been, Wesley? I got to say, it has been really enlightening. I've realized a lot of things about us as moviegoers.

as people who is the people who make our movies. It's been, I didn't re-watch Primal Fear, but I'm going to listen to you guys talk about it. Should I do summer courtroom? Courtroom summer and just extended to August? Maybe. Good for me. Have you learned things during courtroom month?

I've learned a few things, actually. Okay. I'm a little worried about our legal system. It wasn't before. It was working perfectly. Wait, you weren't worried before. I thought it was great. Thank God.

For Hollywood to teach Bill Simmons how bad the legal system in America is. Well, the all time the legal system is fucked up movie is next and Justice for All. My pleasure allegiance to the flag of the United States of America. Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, my name is Arthur

Kirkland and I am the defense counsel for the defendant. And to the private where which it stands. Look, if you're going to try to make a deal with me, you might wind up right back in jail. Well, if everyone agrees that I'm innocent, how come I'm going back to jail?

nation under God is a vivable. It's the law. It's insane. Liberty and justice for all. All right, Wesley's here and Sean is here. This movie came out in 1979. I said this to Sean yesterday, Wesley. If I could just, if all that mattered to me was going to movies,

and I could pick basically any three years just to be alive to just live in New York City and go to movies when they opened up, I think I would pick. New York City from 77, 78, 79. Yeah. And I would just go to movies. And this is like the classic. You have your mind blown at least once a month. Do you have a list going?

The list is quite staggering of movies released this year. In 79. I mean, it's one of the Hall of Fame years, right? It's a pretty crazy one. Do you want to look that up? I'm just looking at a list that I just found on the internet in one second. Give it to us. Apocalypse Now.

Heard of that jazz. Manhattan. Alien. Life of Brian. Kramer versus Kramer. The Warriors. being there, the jerk, Rocky 2, breaking away, Mad Max,

North Dallas 40, the wanderers over the edge, the Amityville horror, I'm sure I've missed a bunch. I mean, special time. Lights out. It's a great year. And Pacino,

one of the most important actors of the 70s, in the running for one of the most important actors of the last 50 years. Yeah, for sure. And this movie just lets him cook. It gives him an apron. It gives them some tools and a knife and some food. It went to one of the fancier grocery stores, bought up some food and just says,

Al, just can you cook for two hours? You don't know where this movie is going. That is, it's power and it's genius in some way. You don't know, because, you know, it starts off really light, you know? Like, it's got that pretty bad elevator jazz score. It prefigures the 80s in that way. You can feel the 80s about to happen. Yeah, it feels like a goofy comedy,

which I think for most part it is, but then it's not. It's funny the last time we did the show together, we did blowout, and that was the 1980 movie that felt like the 70s, and this is a 79 movie that kind of feels like an 80s movie. Yeah, yeah. I just, you know, I saw, you know, I watched the opening credits and you see that Valerie Curtin and Barry Levinson wrote the screenplay and that Norman Jewison directed it.

Usually a couple of good science there. Yeah. Yes. And I just, you know, I was nervous. There's a lot of things that sort of making nervous. He's emotionally. I can't even speak. I really, I just can't believe how good this is. It's a total bridge, right?

It's a major bridge movie from the old 70s Pacino to what he ultimately becomes. And I think kind of how we think of him now as the explosive, unpredictable, not learning his lines, but still taking over the screen kind of actor. Because in the 70s, it's much more internal, it's much more tortured,

guy from the godfather, guy from scarecrow, Serpico, all these movies. And then when you go into the 80s, you know, I don't want to see... He was staged for a few years and then... Yeah. But he, I mean, this is only his eighth movie. Like, he had not made a lot of movies to this point.

But it feels like he looks, he looks like he's 30 going on 50 in this movie. He's, how old is he in it? He's got to be in his early 30s, probably. He looks older than I do right now. 72 to 80s, Serpico, Godfather, Godfather 2, Doug Day Afternoon, Bobby Deerfield, and Justice for All. Close with cruising, which you and I did a few months ago. What a 70s that guy? Yeah.

Wild. Yeah. Those were his first. Like that like through cruising those are his first eight movies. There's no stinker. There's no like oh man why to do that one? Bobby Deerfield needs a little bit more examination. In a good way or a bad way?

I did a good way. It's a really forgotten a time like this movie is a little forgotten the time relative to the Godfather and Serpico but that one I feel like is not nearly a scene and is also he's very he's very quiet in that movie. It's a strange movie too. Cruising is probably the worst amount of those eight movies, right? Yeah, but we also know that it's also extremely rich. Yeah, yeah. I mean, it's giving you so much. It's giving you more than Serpico is giving you.

Serpico is a good movie. Juicin said about Pacino, it's an unusual role for Al. In past films like Dog Day Afternoon and even Serpico, he's been the eccentric cutoff from a sane world. This time he's the most rational person in the picture. It's everyone around him in his environment, which is bizarre. I thought that was a good way to put it. Yeah, that's interesting.

Yeah. I think that's fair. I think what he chooses to do with his own sanity makes him a bit insane, I think. Well, it's like everybody else drives him insane. But this is the genius of the movie. I mean, should we just talk, like, what do we do? Like, should we just talk about where this thing winds up? Because I just sort of feel like the thing that had me crying at the end of this movie

was maybe it was just the moment we are living in right now, where you can have a person. screaming the actual truth. And the system just closes in and says, nope, get the fuck out. You got to go. We got to expunge you and your radical, mentally unstable honesty.

Your awareness that the system is as cracked as it is. It cannot stand in this system. It's got to go. And they basically excrete him. Like, he is outside the actual hall of justice by the end of this movie. for telling the truth. I worry with movies in life in general

that everything is so literal now. And I think it's because of social media and just people are like, here are my feelings. I feel this way. I feel that way. That we have less and less movies like this movie that's like,

you think this is about this, but it's really about this. And that's like all the great stuff that we love, whether it's movies or there's TV shows that still do it. This movie wants you to think it's going a certain way and then it veers into a hard, and then it ends with him breaking the fourth ball,

just staring at the camera. And I just don't think anyone would make this movie anymore. It has nothing in common with anything that happens now. It's uncommon for a star part to end so hopelessly, I would say, in like a mainstream movie that audiences would go see. Like it would be unusual for a big movie. And this movie was a hit. Yeah.

This movie was a hit. For a big movie to end with the note that this movie has. I mean, it's all, it's clearly by design, right? It's like we're at the end of a very tumultuous decade where, not unlike what you're describing right now, it felt like a lot of people were just saying wild made up shit throughout our culture and that those people were kind of edging to the forefront of society. And then that is kind of what happens in the 80s. It's just like charlatans kind of running the country.

And that this is like the last honest man. You know, like that concept is who Pacino's character is meant to be. But I also think that the difference between 1979. and ate when this movie was shot and now is that I think the country still believed in some way in systems, right?

Like, you know, our systems still thankfully work, you know, democratically, but we also know, we just don't have the, you know, we're split in half about whether they're even real at this point, right? And I think

that the, I think an audience watching this movie back then is really struck by the system's failure to work for itself, right? And all the people that it's working against in this movie. This is another one of those movies. I mean, all the movies for courtroom month have essentially are about, they involve black people in some way, right? Black people are somewhere involved in the legal system as, you know,

if we're being real about it, they should be, given the way the country works. In the depiction of it, by the way, that's what I mean. Yeah. And the idea here that every single person we meet in this movie has a corruption, right? Or has corruption forced upon them? And, you know, all the people that sort of come before the court

are done wrong in some way. Or they're either failed by the lawyers or the system or the system because of the lawyers is really devastating because you can see there is a procedure. And if you follow it, in theory, everything should be fine. But there are corrupt judges. There are bad lawyers. There are strange rules that if you don't follow them and a judge wants to uphold them can screw a person for life. Right. Prison as a place where you go and just never come out.

Yeah. You know, the hell of prison. And it isn't even a prison movie, but understands what happens when you slip out of that part of the system into this other part of the system. Well, I must wonder, is this a legal movie, this is a courtroom movie, or is it really part of this whole 70s thing

that was going on with these different conspiracy movies and system is broken movies? Yeah, corruption. So, like, Parallax View. that was what was called, right? Yeah, Paralyx View. Blank him for a second. Agar Sanction, all the president's men.

Then you get into like invasion of the body snatchers, which I watched recently, which is definitely about more than what you think it's about. Three days of the Condor. Yeah, Three Days of the Condor. Just that whole kind of conspiracy. Capricorn One. Yeah.

Bizarre movie. I mean, weirdly networked China syndrome. Totally. Right. Where it's like them trying to tell us through fun movies that the evil is out there. Don't trust people in power. Yeah, don't trust anyone.

They're going to fuck you. Yeah, don't trust people in power. And that's an interesting question, though, because I feel like the movie is iconic for one very specific reason, which is like the misquote that everyone remembers from the end of the movie. You know, you're out of order, you're out of order. This whole courtroom is out of order. Yeah. Which is not actually what he says. But because of that, we think of it as like a prime example of a courtroom movie.

And there is 20, 25 minutes that takes place in a courtroom. The main case is hardly even argued. Yeah. but it is a movie that is about the courts itself and like the way that the courts are built and designed and then who suffers because of the way that the courts are designed and it's like it's more of a system movie than it is a lawyer movie even though it features lawyers

kind of arguing for their own case for life throughout the entire movie. Also set in Baltimore and there's this weird connection with the wire even though the wire is 20 plus years later but yeah same thing right system's broken we have no hope

I actually have been thinking about if we're trying to evaluate the possibility of getting something, getting another work of like screen culture that works is, that does all the work that this movie is doing in two hours. I mean, David Simon is probably the TV show though. Right, right, right, right. Yeah, it's not a movie. I feel like David Simon is the person who's probably doing. I think there's like a weird connection between this movie and cruising you know his comfort with this with this you know transgender person who comes before the court for burglary

but really that person's crime is actually just being outside of the conventional way we were thinking about gender this is a black person who's forced to like remove remove their wig and to, you know, constantly be humiliated by the system for being, you know, two problems within it, right? Like, black and, you know, differently gender. The whole movie's emotional arc hinges on Aggie, the opening scene. Okay, Aggie, you got any concealed weapons that they didn't find up front? You got something concealed?

But it ain't no weapon. Do we say he stretches to make sure? A scar is both. Hey, Kirkland, watch your hand. Come on, Kirkland. Let's go. Yep. Is the, you know, take off your wig, entering the prison.

And then that's where we meet Pacino's character. And we see them as these two figures of like two helpless people. He goes out and Aggie comes in. Yeah. Right? Of the prison, of the jail. Well, the piss going under his legs. Yes, yes.

is one of the best, like, two-second, like, prison is really awful. Yeah. Here's a two-second snippet. And the way he just kind of moves his legs, but he doesn't stand up is really interesting. It's weird because the beginning of the movie is really harrowing. And then for about 40 minutes, it's kind of like an episode of taxi. Right. You know, like, it's freewheeling.

It's pretty funny. It's got that weird, funky jazz score that you're talking about. All the characters are- Jack Warden's a maniac. Jack Wardens, you know, shooting guns off in the... Jeffrey Tambor. Tam Wars, hamming it up, you know, big time in these comic set pieces. And then the movie, again, like, completely shifts gears. And it becomes this, it becomes a romantic drama.

And it becomes a corruption drama at the same time. It's a really weird Frankenstein of a movie. And it, but it pulls it all, it never feels like Norman Jewison does not have control over what the movie is. Because the screenplay is so good, right? And I don't, I've never, I've not read the script, but it just seems like there's all of this. room for a director to let the characters do things. And it's kind of a pot boiler that you don't realize is on the pot and even boil it. Because by the time the Jeffrey Tambor, so basically one thing to say about this is there

are all of the lawyers at some point that we meet have a moment, either they are going to have a moment or they have had a moment in their past. that were they made a mistake right either they made a bad choice knowingly um for their client or to get out of trouble or they represented somebody who turned out to be guilty and the ways in which these people are haunted by their mistakes or bad judgment is really what this movie is also about right there's the way in which the legal system is failing people who come before it but there's also the ways in which these human beings are sort of done in by their humanity but the judges all the judges are sort of anti-human dehumanized you know i was going to ask you about this because

this is the fourth movie we've done and three of the judges and the four movies were kind of either awful or kind of came around to be okay but it seems to be in general. I don't know if it's a movie trope. Is Alphrey Woodard? What's her? No, she's not. So I guess two of them.

I'm thinking of a couple others that we have coming. But for the most part, like the kind of judge who might not stand for the right things. Like one of the characters is Judge Nuse. Yeah. Judge Nuse in a time to kill. Not so subtle. They're not trying to hide that one. But I don't know whether they just don't know.

Patrick. Patrick McGuwen. Patrick. Goon. Yeah, okay. Yeah, he's great. Yeah, I don't know what they're trying to say about judges. Maybe it's just a way to make them interesting. Well, I mean, when there's... But in this one, Jack Warden has a, he's carrying a gun. He's sitting on the, sitting on a ledge. He's putting a gun in his mouth before... Who's more powerful than a judge? Absolute power. Her ups, absolutely, you know?

Like, I think that's the idea, right? Because in a courtroom, you're the judge is the king. The judge decides. The judge makes every decision when it's posed to them by the lawyer. And so obviously, when you accumulate that much power in those situations, ego, vanity, like, I mean, in this movie in particular, the judges are pretty cracked. They're disturbed. This is also 1979, right?

This is, I mean, if you, if we're inclined to think of this. as like post-Watergate movie, which I mean, it's literally after Watergate. There is a way in which, you know, we have gotten very comfortable thinking about, we would have as a country gotten very comfortable thinking about the idea that the presidency is corrupt in some ways, right? That the highest office in the land, you know, is rife with snakes in a way that was more blatant and clear. And then Gerald Ford, who would have been president at the time, you know, essentially

pardoning Nixon. Yeah. You know, we would have been basically sitting in that piss for three years. Well, Carter, oh, right, sorry. It's Carter. Right, sorry, we're in 79.

I'm thinking that Carter, the shadow of Ford is still there. You're right. So Nixon's been pardoned. The country's kind of... It's not like people have a ton of confidence in Carter. It's a standard.

But Carter, the thing about Carter that's really fascinating relative to this movie is Carter was telling the truth. Right. Carter was essentially leveling with the American people almost at all times. And part of his not being reelected was, was the American-Mleague speech?

People just didn't want to hear the truth. Was that 79 too, that speech? It was heading toward the election. But yeah, 79 is. But he'd already set the table for him being capable of giving that speech. Yeah, the crisis of competence speech, July 15th, 1979. What day is this movie is released? It played Toronto September 15, 1979.

Yeah. I mean, I think that we, we'd been living with this man long enough to know that he was, he was leveling with us, and I'm not sure we liked it. But also, he couldn't save America from what it felt like it needed to be saved from cronyism and everything post-Nixon and all that other. He didn't fix it, right? That's like how I feel about Joe Missoula.

Who's your Ronald Reagan then? That's really the question. He's leveling with us that we needed a change, but I'm not sure. How do we get Coach Spowe to Boston? That's Reagan for you. Can I give you the best screenplays that year? Yes. This was nominated, as was the China Syndrome, Manhattan, and all that jazz, and they all lost a breaking away.

It's a good screenplay, though. Breaking away is a good category. Yeah, I'm not a good screenplay. Breaking Way is a good screenplay. I don't know. The redo, I'm not sure it wins. But that's wild. And then best actor that year.

This is a good one. This is an amazing one. Pacino, Lemon for China Syndrome, Roy Shatter and all that jazz, who probably wins eight of 10 years normally, right? Except.

Peter Sellers being there, and then Hoffman wins for Kramer versus Kramer. And there's an incredible casting what if that I'm just going to do now, where Puccino, was supposed to be in Kramer versus Kramer. First choice.

He bowed out to do this movie instead. I'd say it's the right. And everybody wins. Well, I don't think Hoffman would have been as good as Puccino, but I wonder if Pachino would have been as good as Hoffman and Kramer versus Kramer. I think he might have. That's a great question.

So you're basically saying Puccino is a better actor than does that. I think he has more range. I don't think Hoffman would have been as good as Injustice Fron. I think you would have tried to dial it up. I think that, I don't want to, how do I put this? I think there's a kind of,

I think Hoffman would have wanted to have had it figured out before he got to the set in a way. I don't think Pacino knew it was going to happen. It feels like he's reacting. When the camera starts. Right? And what's funny to me is all the times in this movie, I kept thinking about what it must be like to be Al Pacino at this point,

where everybody knows, I'm trying to think of a sports analogy here that will really work, but you guys can give it to me. Joe Missoula? No, not Joe Missoula. It's Patrick Mahomes heading into this season. It's because everybody... We know you're the best.

You're not even 30, but you're the best. And watching all these people try to go to town on him? Just stop. Just stop. You guys, that's a separate podcast. We have nine months. of NFL season to deal with. I need to talk to you about that, by the way.

But just... It's ominous. Just imagine, like, just watching these people, like, Craig T. Nelson. Yeah. First movie. I mean, clearly, because he's coming in explosive, like, embarrassingly hot. And Pacino's just like, okay. Three years later, he's Bench and Georgovich.

All the right moves. And Pie, Pi, Pi. But it's just really fascinating to watch Pacino, watch all these other actors, try to make a statement against him. Almost every one of his co-stars in this movie is going up a level from where they usually are. Tambor going up a level.

I mentioned Larry Brighman. He was a soap opera actor, but he has this great confrontation with him in the car and he's trying to go up a level, get a little noisier. Dominic Cheney is trying to go up a level. Even his mentor is trying to go up a level by going down a level Eastrasbourg.

Only Christine Lottie. She's the only one who actually keeps it keeps it cool, I think. Yeah, yeah. And it makes me like her more even though that is one of the more ridiculous lawyers

I've ever seen in a movie. Odd character. Strange. I don't even totally understand what her job was. She was like ethics of some committee but she's on this ethics committee. She's madely start to sleep with Pacino.

What's going on? The continuing indictment of the corruption, right? Right. But I mean, it's also those, that corruption committee that he appears before at the beginning of the movie seems like a joke, right? I mean, it is played for a joke.

And it's the kind of thing that if you I don't know where Valerie Curtin and Barry Levinson came up with the screenplay. But it definitely seems like they watched some Patty Chiafsky movies and we're like, you know what we don't like about Chiafsky? He cannot

keep his opinion about the state of things to himself. He does not trust his his sense of dramatic screenwriting or his sense of satire to tell an audience this is how I feel so instead he literally has people speaking editorials to the camera in these movies or do you doing voiceover or something sounds like Sorkin what if we well one of his biggest inspirations Chiafsky yeah a hundred percent what if we just removed the like the op-ed framework

from our movie and basically did Pat A. Chayevsky, like a satire that has a capacity for tragedy and just left it at that. We get good actors in it and we let them do their thing. What would happen? And we got a director who doesn't need to prove anything. Right, right, right, right. Who's just comfortable with people behaving and leaving in it that. Can I give you a couple more 1979 movies? Sure. That Sean didn't mention. Fish said say Pittsburgh. It's definitely on the level as the other ones. Fast break. Yeah.

All that jazz and justice for all. Fish and Save Pittsburgh, fast break. And then after that is... The onion field? I like the onion field. Okay. Same time next year. Is that Marsha Mason?

No. Yeah, the Allen Alda, where they... The Neil Simon play. Okay, yeah. That's the one where they meet up once a year and they have for their affair, right? Yeah. I've seen that movie. It's all right.

It's a great premise. Good idea. It's a great... I think in 2020. It would cause a tsunami online. The Rose? I like the Rose. The champ?

Yeah, R-I-B-Freding over. Underrated Boston movie? Oh, starting over. Norma Ray? Oh, Norma Ray. Butch and Sundance, the early years. Oh, boy. We had...

Norma Ray is in this conversation, too. Yeah. Oh, yeah. It's one of these movies. It's one of these and Justice Robbins. What about meatballs? Meatballs. And did you mention Moonwaker?

No, I like Moonraker. And then we didn't mention a... huge one that would never get made about 10. Oh, 10. 10 was a phenomenon. Yeah. There's more, Black Stallion. Is that year?

79 was amazing. Muppet movie. Muppet movie. Oh, huge. Star Trek to Motion Picture. Rocky, is there a Rocky movie? Rocky, too, yeah. Let's take a break.

We got to talk about Jack Ward and our guy and Norman Jewison. This podcast is brought to you by Carvana. Selling your car should feel like one less thing on your list. Not one more. With Carvana, it is. Just go to Carvana.com. your license plate or VIN and get a real offer down to the penny. No back and forth, no surprises, just an experience you can trust. Like your offer? Accept it. Schedule pickup and we'll come to you

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We already had the Jack Wharton segment on a previous podcast. Was the verdict? Yeah, the verdict. But just to give his 75 to 82 again, shampoo, all the president's men, heaven can wait, the champ, and justice for all being there, used cars, and the verdict. He's just ripping him off. Is that two Oscar nominations?

Yeah. In that run? Heaven can wait in shampoo. Okay. He is a first team all NBA person of, oh there's Jack Warden it's good to see him just he's in a movie it's like oh good

Jack Warden's in this the Robert Ory of American movies you always win when he's on your team we also have John Forsyth as the evil judge wow he's the voice of Charlie's Angels so we don't know what it looks like What year does Charlie's Angels end

is it over by now it is yeah we have to go through the Shelley Hack year and the Tony Roberts year was Charlie still put if you want to do a Charlie's Angel's sidebar yeah he's on the whole time Hello, Angels.

I have a good one for you. We got to go to Las Vegas this week. Somebody's bumping off showgirls. I always thought it would be funny if in one of the Mission Impossible movies, they just got John Forsyth to do the... Ethan Hunt, it's Charlie! Hey! Hey, this is your mission if you choose to accept it.

Here's Bosley. Forsyth is so compelling in this movie and such a good villain. It makes no sense to me because... I knew him as the voice of Charlie and then Dynasty, which was the biggest show of the 80s for like four years. And he's the kind of patriarch of the dynasty family.

Robert Carrington? Yeah, I think that was his name. Definitely. No, Blake Carrington. Blake Carrey. How can I forget? Blake Carrington, married to Linda Evans. Yeah, yeah.

But he's evil in like a... In a very contemporary slash timeless way. Yeah. Totally. Yeah. The coiffured demon. Yeah. I mean, the better villains.

just to be clear about what's happening here John Forsyth is playing a judge he's playing the judge who simultaneously is responsible for one of our supporting characters being in prison at this point in a psych war

wrongfully imprisoned it doesn't care for a paperwork error essentially and Pacino punches him which was we see before the movie starts yes so we know like oh man that's how bad it got he punched him He was in jail for contempt of court because he punched it or tried to punch a judge.

Or tried to put John Forsy. And so somehow John Forsyth is brought up or he's charged with rape and assault. Yeah. And Forsyth's political idea, his ingenious political idea, is to get, as his lawyer, out Pacino's character. And Pacino's like, you got to be kidding me, right? why would you want me to do it? And basically it's like, well, listen, if you, if people know that you tried to punch me out, but you're also going to represent me, I'm obviously, I'm obviously innocent, right?

Right. And Pacino is suddenly in this pickle. And the question that he has is, like, how does a lawyer do his job in the way that a lawyer is supposed to do it? But also knowing full well that there, in addition to everything else, like, One of my clients is in a really bad place in prison for the dumbest reason and then the dumbest other reason. Okay, I'll do it, but you've got to get my guy out. And Forsyth is like, I'll see what I can do. I'll see what I can do is always a good villain moment.

It's really wild. Anytime you hear it with a guy who looks like John Forsyth, who has that smug, I'm going to slowly smoke a cigarette while I decided. with a want to ruin your life. Very handsome still. He's still very good looking. It's not going to go well. Some Ted Knight energy from him in this movie.

He's like evil Ted Knight. Ted Knight. The movie is really... He's blithe about it too, right? He's not twisting his mustache. He's like, I'm a rich, handsome white guy. When they go into the pool, the sauna pool or whatever that is at his home, he's like Satan in there.

He's he played golf with Judge Smales, you think? Like in a member guest? One thing I really like about the movie is it's really smart about a very simple fact that we all accept in our society, which is that lawyers all the time defend people that they know are guilty. And also lawyers all the time defend people that they know are innocent,

but that are nevertheless sentenced to prison. And this like moral quagmire that being in this profession is and the absurdity that Levinson and Curtin are kind of underlining, like, can you fucking believe that this is the world that we live in? The line is so thin.

Where we have to do this? It's just a really smart idea. And that little germ that you just explained for the movie, you can feel like that's where they started, right? They were like, how do we get, a lawyer who punched out a judge to defend the judge to show the world that he's

innocent. Like that's the kernel that they pop from. It's really great idea for a movie. So Norman Jewison, our guy, five best director nomination, zero wins, and then they gave him the Thalberg Memorial Award. That's what they do. Which I feel like we should start doing with the

NBA MVP. Where I'm trying to think of somebody who, like if MB did never won and he just finished second to yokech like five years in row. Is this your way to get Jason Tatum MVP award? This might be my other chance. It's like, good news, Joelle.

You didn't ever win an MVP, but you've won the Irving Thalberg MVP award for career achievement. It just feels insulting. But anyway. Name the five movies? I don't have that. Let's see if we can name it. Well, I'll give you. I wrote down his 11.

It's a really interesting loss that he lost Best Director. Oh, wait. I know this. It's not Mike Nichols. It is. Is it Nichols? Mike Nichols for the graduate. Yeah.

Okay. So just for the. listeners. He rips off the Cincinnati kid in the heat of the night, Thomas Crown Affair. He does Fiddler on the roof, Jesus Christ, Superstar, and Rollerball. Just stop right there. All in a row. Stop right there. His 70s is amazing. He does The Justice for All a couple years later. Soldier Story, Agnes God, Moonstruck. Only you in the hurricane. But that's out Washington. When he's late 70s, at that point, 80? No, yeah, I think even older. I mean, those are, I just listed 12 movies that. So Moonstruck nominated for Best Picture,

right? Fiddler on the roof nominated for Best Picture What else is on the was the Russians are coming the Russians are coming nominated for Best Picture

that's the Alan Arkham movie he was nominated Yeah There's one more in there Was the Hurricane nominated for Best Picture? No, but Denzel was Okay

He had a very smart director move which I would do if I was the director which I'm not but he could be It's a soldier story That's the other one

He went He went where the talent was he wasn't like, I'm just going to make this movie and you won't know any of the people. He's like, I'm going to work with Pacino. I'm going to work with James Con at the heat of his powers.

On down the line, he's just major stars, stories that made sense. Roller Ball is my favorite Norman Jerusalem movie, but I also love Roller Ball probably the most. Another great movie about systems

and power and not trusting money and all that. But like his career is, Johnathan. Jonathan. Jonathan. Best James Con is a company. Hey, you've never seen Rollerball.

No. Rollerball foretells the entire violent world of pro football and where it's going. Yep. Nobody even knew what was happening. We're waiting for your Rollerball episode. Juison's really important dude in movie history. Yeah, can you give him the one-sentence scouting report of what, like, his style was? Did he have a style?

He didn't have a style. You pointed out that he went to where the talent was. He did a couple things. When he comes to Hollywood, he's a Canadian kid, and he starts making, like, Doris Day and Tony Curtis movies. and he makes these three or four romantic comedies in the 60s. And then he basically gets to,

on the back of the New Hollywood coming around, and frankly on Sidney Poitiers back, gets to, like, elevate into a status that many filmmakers from his generation didn't get a chance to do because a lot of guys who were younger than him were coming in at that time. But he makes him the beginning of New Hollywood.

He's just in this gap. So how many of those guys bridge the gap where they were in the old era and the new era? Very few. Where they fit in. But he was smart because he, He famously mentored Hal Ashby.

Hal Ashby was the editor on Thomas Crown Affairn on Cincinnati Kid. And he had an eye for eccentric types who were really gifted. So he was always bringing those people into his orbit. And he had really great taste. And he worked with Mirashon in the heat of the night. And so he was always getting good projects. But then he's like, he's made musicals. He's made romantic comedies.

He's made these big epic movies. He's made sports movies. He's made courtroom dramas. He made Fist with Sylvester Stallone, this union movement. That's another town to gravitated. He is just one of the most. flexible but style non-specific.

You couldn't, by looking at a movie, you wouldn't be like, well, that's it. But they all have something. They all, like, you know, in the heat of the night, that movie has style. Yeah. Right. Fist in its way has style.

Moonstruck has style. No doubt. Right? But those, I mean, these movies couldn't be less alike. Yeah. You know, but the thing that keeps them together, I'm thinking about Moonstruck, in relation to injustice for all, right?

Like, just the batting order of these movies, the fact that the entire lineup can hit one out of the park whenever, whenever at any at bat, in any inning can just happen. It's amazing. And, I mean, injustice for all isn't quite, like, moonstruck level acting good. But everybody who's in this movie, whether you've got two scenes or 12,

is ready to go, even when if you're Craig T. Nelson is too much and you aren't ready to go to toe to it, butino, they're like, he knows how to at least make these people make the most sense. Great. Just a very unique career. I can't think of anybody. Stephen Frears is maybe a distant second to Jewish. How many people had five decades making movies? Making really great, solid Hollywood, popular. It's kind of in that like Spielberg conversation where you're like talking about the people who really span eras and defined. And mattered, right?

Like they made movies like talk about. He's made so many rewatchable movies. Like, I mean, what if his movies aren't rewatchable? I've never seen Gayley Gaylee. I don't know. Starring Bow Bridges. I've never seen it. Well, my memory of when this, I don't remember that one either.

I don't know what that is. Yeah. My memory of this movie when it came out was Pacino and. crazy comedy and I can remember like the trailer and stuff but it became a Pacino yeah it felt like he had seized the upper hand from De Niro in that little battle that we were having in the 70s with all the young actors and it just felt like he was the guy and then next year Raging Bull happens and then it flips but but think about what it took think about what De Niro had to do to flip it

right right and then you know they all respond to De Niro raging bull right that's how you get the shining right that's how you get scarface right that's how you get mommy dearest everybody wants a raging bull right um it's a great observation yeah four million dollar budget made 33 million dollars roger ebert three stars listen i would add it a half this is a three and half stars but i mean i think that it takes a while for the movie to get where it's going. And like my cousin Vinny, the last, the last courtroom sequence

is so good and so almost out of left field that it kind of makes you rethink the movie that you've just been watching and whether or not the people who made it new, of course they knew. But it's so different, it's so much heavier than what precedes it. I mean, anyway, what does he say?

Here's an angry comedy, crossed with an ex-bosé and held together by one of those high-voltage opportunity performances that's so sure of itself we hesitate to demure. So this is kind of definitional for the re-watchables, but I'm going to present it like it's an original take. Sometimes a three-star movie is just a lot better than a three-and-a-half-star movie. Yeah. You know?

I like the movie with a couple flaws that's still like rollicking and entertaining. Yeah. A three-and-a-half-star movie is like a movie that's trying to be great. Yeah. This was as a person who had to use a star system for 11 years of his writing life, it was so much easier to give a movie three stars than three and a half because it just took all the pressure off. Right. Like you can really, really, really, really like it. Quibble a little bit, but ultimately just be comfortable in knowing, you know, when the piece gets to the readers,

that they won't really have a lot to argue with in terms of. But the reality is we screwed up with the star system. Yeah, sure. I hated it. Meltzer for wrestling matches would do five star matches. See, I prefer five stars. Five stars is more coherent to me. Yeah.

Because you have more options. Obviously, it's bigger. It's more numbers. But then it allows me to think. But it's basically 10 numbers, right? Because it's three and a half, four and a half. That's what I think of it is. Did you get, are you passing with a 70?

Is it too late? Are you getting back? I mean, on my beloved letterbox, it's five stars. That's what they use. That's what you and the letterbox psychos do? That's what we do. We use five stars. I believe that that is the most complete system

if you have to use a system. It's like a cult. I'm an ombudsman. That's it. I'm a representative of the people. He's like him and Tedros on Letterbox. Tedros, no. We would never welcome someone like that into our community.

No. To the Letterbox community? No. Sean's wearing a shot collar and handing out four stars. Most rewatchable scene. It's weird. The opening scene is just awesome. Like just the whole stretch, you don't, it's like, wait, I thought how Pachino was this.

What was the guy? What was the, the, like, Aggie. Yeah. We're with them for the first, what, five minutes. Like, wait a second, where are we going? And then all of a sudden, Pacino's in there in jail with piss dripping down his legs. And we're just off. We're ready to roll.

Yeah. Because they really wanted to show us like, hey, this is how it goes. There's, there's like a jazzy music soundtrack. I was going to have this in what stage. the best. I'll just do it now. That is very specific to like basically 79 through night shift with Henry Winkler and Michael Keaton where it was like just it's weird synthesizer. It's a trumpet.

It's some sort of like a yacht rocky kind of beat. But it's not good. It's like they haven't really figured out all the elements together, but they just threw it together and they just put it on the thing. It's Dave Gruson, who I believe the last time we talked about him on the show did the score for another courtroom film, The Firm. Yeah. That very memorable. jazz score. Yeah, that's a good one. I mean, I wonder what he would say the story is with this

particular one because, you know, this is a, this is one of our, like, acclaimed jazz musicians in addition to, like, scoring a lot of American movies. Yeah. This one is almost, like, spare to the point of not really, you notice it in a way that I don't think is necessary. It's running, running counter. It's running hot to what's happening on screen. next one i have just Pacino and lee strasberg who we didn't mention yet going to see him those scenes they're fine

i don't like them i know why they're there we all know why they're there i just love the godfather too kind of those guys back together the scenes themselves they're fine they do it yeah i maybe do one instead of two but as someone who the first one i think is good i strongly believe that life is meaningless and then you die

and so because of that i feel that that thread is very powerful. We're basically like at the end of the movie he's like well this man has dementia and he'll never remember who I am anymore because I forgot to come visit him three times and that's life. You know, that's a pretty brutal ending. But also like it's another

it's just another thing he failed to do. Right. He did not have time. You know, it's... But look at the cost. Right. Yes. Yes. Yes. He's failed another person because there was no time to do it. So I have the Pacino and Christine Lottie flirting with each other. Well,

going at it, but then it turns into he asks her out. And then they have a Chinese food date, which yet again reinforces that if you were doing a movie with Pacino and it was like a romantic movie, I think it was a tough beat in the 70s and 80s. He's just like, there's just

the cigarettes are just oozing out of him. He looks like he hasn't showered in a week and a half. I always feel bad for the actress. Yeah. How many total hours of sleep you think he got during the production of this movie? Oh my God. Probably none.

He looks like he's been wide away for days. I don't know. Who knows? But he, I was thinking about this in relation to cruising.

How, and how bad he looks in cruising versus how clean and showered he looks here. He looks very scrub. Right. But does he? Unslept, though.

He does. Right. He seems tired, appropriately tired, but he also just seems a lot less haggard. He's in a lot of earth tones here. Of all the great actors

who've ever had, he's the only one. Like, he's eating Chinese. food in front of her and you're like, this is just gross. I don't know why it's gross to watch you in Chinese food. No, I would feel that way

about no other great actor. He doesn't have a lot of vanity, you know? I mean, when he flips out later in the movie in front of the car, it's like, that is not bad. I mean, it's show-offy, but it is, he looks nuts. But also, the state, like, well, when we find out why he did it, right? Like, why

we think we know why he's flipping out. Then we learn this other thing and you're like, oh, wait, it's worse. It's even worse than we thought. Yeah, yeah. I have Tambor and his buddy telling Pacino about the Fleming's rape charge when Tambor just says. That's a great scene. It's really hard to laugh that hard as an actor.

I don't know how they did it. Tom Hanks and Money Pit is probably the 10 out of 10 for it. Just fully committing to the hysterical laughter. That's great. That's a great. That's just a great scene. We have to mention the helicopter scene. It's a little crazy, but it is fun to fly around New York.

I did like getting shots of the city. that's kind of a all the sequences with just him and Jack Warden feel like they're in another movie. Yes. Yes, that's true. They're in a slightly lighter

on its feet movie. You know, a little goofier. But even that scene in the bat, that sort of macabre scene in the bathroom where they're telling them about the judge being accused of sexual harassment. There's just so many other ways to have delivered that information,

but to do it in a bathroom and to crack up. Right. I like that he checks the stalls first. Right. That the. irony is just hilarious here for these guys. One of the things I like about the helicopter scene is the crash. They actually just crash in the water and you don't understand what's happening.

You think they're going to make it and they actually don't. And then he just gets out of the water. He's so crazy. Speaking of crazy, the plate throwing scene with Tambor. Love it. Incredible scene. I rebound it and I kept watching and I was trying to figure out how they faked it and I don't. They didn't work.

It was just clearly blocking plates. I was watching this and I'm like, Like, okay, Wesley. Would you want to be Jack Ward and getting plates sort of out? I was thinking like, what are the cops so afraid of here, right? Like, you just go in there. Right, just charge at him. And just charge at him.

He's just throwing plates. They didn't have their riot gear that day. But what's interesting, can I just say, the thing that's amazing to me about that scene is I just been thinking about plate spinning, right? Like in all of the things you have to keep in the air as a lawyer. Yeah. And the thing that breaks the tape. Handborg character is the realization that a person he got off from murder just killed more people.

Yeah. And he goes from being the guy laughing in the bathroom over this judge's sexual harassment charge to Travis Bickle. Yeah. Right. And he shaves his head off and he just loses it. He just goes completely like a kind of moral insanity. I've never seen Mr. Roper this upset. That's the crazy thing about the stunt casting with him

was he was just the guy in Thru's company. Nobody knew he was like a real Germanic actor like this. Yeah. No. But yeah, I mean, that sequence is great. Well, another crazy sequence all these seasons. Arthur attacks the car, the briefcase. He's dead!

Half an hour after they put him in the lockup behind himself! Aggie did not have to go to jail. Do you understand? He did not. In 10 months, I don't like those penny any bullshit cases. I was doing you a favor. Favor?

What kind of favor? It's nickel and dime, Arthur. It's all nickel and dime. Don't you care? Warren, don't you even care? If you care so much, why were you in the courtroom? You're goddamn right, I care.

But not about them. People Warren, kill? You're just... If he's not in jail, this week, you'll be in jail next week. Oh, God, the God damn it. You know probation is at fault. Appeal it.

Oh, I can't appeal it. He's dead. Just going nuts. That scene is who Al Pacino becomes as an actor. It's like that is when things are, whether they're good or bad, you know, but sin of a woman and devil's advocate and all the things that were like, Jack and Jill and all the crazy shit that he does in movies. Attica, Attica comes before this. But that is the scene to me where I'm like, that's the pivot point when everybody is like, oh, this is the version of Al Pacino acting. he's acting hard.

But it works. It's not a criticism. It works really well. It works here, right? Because the scene is well written. He genuinely seems distraught. Yeah. No, truly distraught.

And what he says at the end of that sequence is like, where's your humanity? Yeah. Like, does nobody care about the fucking people? Yeah. Like, what are we doing here if we don't, if we're not caring about the people? What are we doing? I have three more. Arthur, Pacino's character, Der, gets the.

flaming pictures. Oh, from Uncle Jr. Mm. We didn't mention Johnny Ola also making his reunion with Al Pacino here too. Strassburg and. The Fleming pictures are hilarious.

There's only three of them. I could have looked at another 10 and it's like, what's going on in the sex party? He's sort of like posing? He's like, yeah. Yeah. John Forsy, that's who. This cocky judge.

Then Fleming admitting to him that he's guilty is amazing. Yeah. I mean, this is a big moment for like white male entitlement. You know, like, I mean, because there's no reason for this time, not all the other times in history. I think in the movies, right, because that is essentially the other thing that's on trial here, right? I mean, he's literally on trial for this, for the attitude, the effrontery of the ability to sort of do this to a woman and just be certain that he'll get away with it. Yeah.

And I think, you know, you don't really see that kind of like bargain basement evil very often, right? Where the stakes, he didn't, you know, it's not murder. It's not, he's not running like an evil crime ring. It's like, this is very like terrible nuts and bolts human being interaction here. That he is just brushing off as his, is his guy. I'd give an American right to be able to do it. And doubles down on when they get in the courtroom. Oh, yeah.

Points are out. That's. That's dark. That's a very clear moment. I almost feel like at this point, he's trying to get Pacino to break. And it works. And that is the critical moment in the movie, right?

That was an unanswerable question. I have for this episode. Last scene would be the big scene. The prosecution is not going to get that man today. No, because I'm gonna get him. Mike Fleming should go right to fucking jail. That man is guilty. That man there.

That man is a slime. He is a slime. If he's allowed to go free, then something really wrong is going on. Mr. Kirkland, you are out of order. You're out of order. You're out of order. Oh, trial is out of order.

Yeah. Which don't sleep on him finishing going, hold it. I just completed my opening statement. Such a good line. He's not even in the frame at that point. He's outside the courtroom, too. Is that the number one lawyer courtroom scene for you? Of all time?

Yeah. We talked about this. I love Newman's final closing. statements and the verdict i think is just the way it's shot so far away like that i love that scene um god that's a good one we talked about mccanee in a time to kill breaking down i love it but it's so hacky at the same time you know like that got me um i like hacky this is definitely i mean i've got some weird right like i i've i this will be another opportunity for me to bring up legally blonde oh yeah i mean we're talking about linda cardolini breaking down uh yeah yeah

I think that there are just like great moments where a lawyer is doing something lawyerly. I think that, you know, Pesci and my cousin Vinny is just like a really good example of like a particular kind of lawyering that works. We didn't, we're, you know, we're not, this is, I really like this movie called Music Box, which comes out in 19888, Jessica Lang defending her Nazi dad. Yeah. I remember that. And her real, like the stuff that that character has to do in that Jessica Lange who got an Oscar nomination. Do you think that's the best defending my Nazi dad movie or no? Is there other ones?

Well, this one put those out of business. It's a great future theme month here on the rewatchables. Not a business is. That's August. I mean, but this is, this is definitely number. You know my favorite is. What's your favorite? Is it a few good men?

Did you order the code red? Yeah. I mean, that's the... Yeah, that's the best one. Sean's right. This one, I have to say, like, I have not watched a few good men in a few years, but watching Injustice for All in the last week, the thing that moved me about it is there are stakes.

They're like, are stakes so much bigger than what happens in a few good men, right? It's saying more about the world. I think, I don't know if I've ever been more on the seat, edge of my seat. seat in a movie that doesn't feature like a scene that doesn't feature a gun than in a few good men the first time I watched it where I was like leaning closer to see if he could get Nicholson to go where he wanted to go

who's going to offend him you you lieutenant Weinberg I mean it's nothing better but I guess the difference for me is that movie is telling you it's already told you what it's going to do but we innately want to be satisfied we still don't know if he's going to actually

get him to get the code right I'm a sure about Pacino here is that you don't know. It's the same thing where you don't know if he's actually going to do it or not. Yeah. But in this case, he does it but doesn't do it, right? I also think that he banishes himself at the end of this movie. Yeah.

It kind of can't count if, I don't know, there's something about it involved. All right, I take it back. I'm not even going to say what I was going to say. I was thinking about like having a scene partner. But this, but Chino, the thing that's great about it is it's just him. Right? Yeah.

It's him in the court, in the theater of the courtroom, essentially giving a performance for the jury, for his client, for this woman who is looking for justice, for the judge. Yeah. You know what I mean? Like there's so many people, so many constituent parties in this performance. They make a point of showing the woman at the end. Right. Yeah. And I just feel like the stakes are simultaneously specific to every party involved, including, you know, judges.

Justice for McCullough, the guy who got sent to prison by John Forsy's character, for Aggie who died because he was, it's just so complicated and there's so much he's getting out of himself about what's wrong with the legal system. I just feel like that to me, what all is on Pacino's shoulders in that moment? and the transcendent way that he is acting through all that. And just like the idea that like... You think that's more than Matthew McConae solving racism at the end of time to kill? I want to throw in a little honorable mention for...

You think he's solving racism. What about back into the left? Back into the left. Oh, that's a good one. Back into the left. That's a courtroom scene. Yeah, that's a really good one. I think he might be right about a few good men.

I think that's the most exciting scene. It's like, it's emotionally satisfying. As you were talking about, all the stuff Pacino is trying to do in that last scene, it reminds me of Hoffman and Tutsi with the big reveal that is like, I'm actually her brother. He takes the wig off,

but he sets it up this certain way and it's getting there and it's like, oh no, he's not going to actually do it, is he? And then he whips the wig off. And the same thing with Pacino where it's building to this. It's going to do it? It's going to actually say he thinks this guy's, He's a great comparison, because it's, but it's the opposite energy.

Right. Right. Yeah. It's like he's actually, he, there's fear in him about, you know, in doing it, right? There's a real risk. There's so much risk in that, in that reveal too. I feel like, but you know, the other thing about this moment here is his loss of control. Yeah.

Right. Which starts when he demolishes the car. Right. Yeah. Well, and then, I mean, it really starts. But once he's blackmailed into having to take the gig, right? Well, I had this in What Stage the best, one of my favorite movie tropes, not a courtroom trope, but the trying to talk somebody into putting the gun down when they have the guns trained on them,

and then the guy forgets and he stands up, and then our hero is, no! And he stands up and gets wiped out. Yeah. That's when it starts. But I was like when they do that in a movie, it always works for me. There's so many scenes in the movie that are so epically tragic, but that, feel like the previous scene was just two guys giving each other shit. You know, like, it's a really, it's not about their fantasy.

It's so chaotic. So we go last scene for most rewatchable, or would you go something else? I think it's the last. I think so, too. It's the last. What's age the best? I wrote down those late 70s soundtracks with lots of swervy saxophones and Congo beats and weird disco shit.

Yeah. Still gets me. This anecdote age the best. Pacino frequently ad-libbed and improvised, and Lee Strasberg got mad at him and said, ah, learn your lines, darling. And then Pacino later recognized it was good advice. Thank God.

Barry Levinson and Baltimore movies? The first of many for him. The Wire connection we mentioned. The trans stuff in this movie for 1979 isn't a disaster? I was... It's shocking. Yeah, it actually handled really sensitive.

Character has dignity. Like, you understand their perspective. like it's given given 1979 of it it's pretty surprising but the thing is that it does not work if Arthur does not believe in this person's humanity

yeah right if he does not believe that this person is simultaneously here for almost no reason right like I mean there is a legal reason he is here but does not need to stay right this you this person needs to be exited out of the system

there's an even bigger comment in the in character and in a lot of the movie which is like this is small time shit right are you wasting our time in the justice system on these petty crimes where there's so many bigger problems that we have which is part of the his inquiry and his you know dialogue with christine loth's character is all about like you're just missing the point you're missing the point of how what you really need to be spending your time examining here smart Arthur believes in three things humanity justice and eating chinese food in the most disgusting way possible we just trying to see his rip in 12 heaters while crushing

some general south chicken fried rice falling off his face hey honey want to hit the sack um oh my god any other what's aged best for you guys um other than the norman jewess and i mdb uh that that is aged well i think Jeffrey tambour and christine lottie's first movies is pretty good finds yeah nice job and also just like and Craig t nelson's first movie too so that's three pretty well-known people. There's another good jury movie. Like we've been talking, I've been, you know, we've been talking about, um, in the other, in these other courtroom movies about like what the jury is doing.

The jury selection. And Chris Ryan said he would love to be cast as a jury member. This is a, this is a completely, tense or surprise. This is completely true. But at 7.30 this evening, I will find out if I am to serve on a jury tomorrow in Los Angeles County. So, uh, I will let you know whether or not.

It's a good emotional experience. Should we give a heads up to the letterbox community? That you might be out for a couple hours. Guys, I'll be able to rank any movies today. It's like telekinesis, you know? They just, they can read my mind and I can send messages to them without saying a word. Well, the jury in this movie is riveted to Al Pacino. Yeah.

They are, I don't even know if that's acting. Well, it's, I think they are just. It's probably not. They're probably like, holy shit, this guy's an amazing actor. Completely wrapped. I think it's also in great contrast to the Craig T. Nelson opening statement, when he's like, let's make our goal line stand. And you're like, this guy's so full of shit.

Get this guy out of here. Let's take a break more categories. This episode is brought to you by Two Good and Company Coffee Creamers. How did you take your coffee? Piping hot, ice, strong, frothy. But if you love rich, creamy goodness and delicious flavor in every sip, try Two Good Encompanied Creamers. They're made with farm fresh cream and real milk.

Each serving has just three grams of sugar, 40% less than the leading coffee creamers. Two good creamers are available in sweet cream, roasted vanilla, and lavender. So which one are you trying first? Find two good creamers at your local retailer in the creamer aisle. This episode is brought to by Whole Foods Market. Spring is here, so celebrate it with fresh, juicy, seasonal produce and some very tasty limited time flavors. New Whole Foods, Market Peach, Apricot, Rose, Italian soda. Perfect for a picnic or brunch, as is their trending mango, Yuzu chantilly cake. But if you're on the go, new 365 strawberry pretzels make a great sweet snack.

That sounds delicious. Get savings with yellow sales signs storewide and everyday low prices on 365 brand items. Enjoy the fresh flavors of spring. Save at Whole Foods Market. Kid Cudy Pursuit Happiness is where Best Needle Drop. It's that crazy theme song in the beginning. They don't really dabble. Yeah, they don't really squeeze any other songs into.

this for the most part. There's like a gospel disco. There's something here. The end. Yeah, there's like a, yeah, there's like a, yeah, you're right. I tried to find the song. It's like a children's choir. I couldn't. No, it's like a, it's like a gospel choir. Okay, yeah, I noticed that in the credits, and then I turn the movie off from the credits. Big Kuhna Burger Award for best use of food and drink. We're going with worse this time. It's the Chinese food date that I've mentioned three times. Dennethives Benihanna Award, scene stealing location, downtown Baltimore, moving into the Great Shock Order Award for most cinematic shots. warden on the ledge and it's one of those how did they do this shots which he really sat in the

ledge he had like the little harness underneath to make sure he didn't fall over but i like that shot of him where it's like how are they doing this but then you also could see baltimore in the background's good stuff yeah baltimore in the background there's a great shot of christine lottie and alpuccino walking when he's explaining to her about the the pictures yeah and they're In the background, you can see a bunch of... There's a bunch of mills and warehouses behind them, including the... Including Baltimore's domino sugar plant.

Right. That's the inner harbor, right? Isn't that in the... Yep. Yeah, I love the inner harbor in Baltimore. We don't get to give this out all the time. The Mallory Rubin Award for Did This Movie Need a Better Sex Scene? The answer is no.

It actually, we didn't need a Pacino sex scene. It didn't need any sex scene at all. The answer is no, thumbs down. What about more open-mouth kissing scenes? with Chetty's food. Listen. Soy sauce on your cheek. At least they know how to kiss.

Did they? I didn't really pick up on it. Yeah, no. That was original. That was some kissing. Good for them. The Butch's girlfriend Award for the weak link of the film. The judge just tells him, I did it.

Are we sure? We sure he should have done that, that that was realistic, that I know they're trying, he's trying to egg Pacino on, but for what reason so Pacino could flip out and then ruin his case for like a mistrial? What's his, what's his motive there? I actually don't. I mean, I like that you think that there was some scheme happening. I just, it's just a pure power. I think it's just that airway.

I think it's just pure arrogance. That was my read of it, but I like this. I think the mistrial theory is strong because that is ultimately what happens, obviously. I like this. I never like in any show or movie when we get to the end and the bad guy's like, so I did it and here's how I did it. Unless it's primal fear. Unless it's primal fear.

fair. But the good thing about this movie is that it's not about that, right? No. There's like five other things that have as many as there's as much a stake in these other plot lines as

as this trial. That's what distinguishes this movie from every other movie that we'll do in the theme month is that it's not really about the case. Yeah. It's about the people. It's about the court system. What's age the worst? the fucking Metallica song just overwhelmed the Google results for this movie

rocks though it's an amazing song but couldn't they have called it slightly different they probably don't even know the movie you Google it it's like just McTalaca shit then you gotta like keep scrolling down oh there's this Pacino movie where you got nominated for an Oscar even though it was 10 years later I mean it is named after the Pledge of Allegiance it's not like the invented you know Barry Levinson

didn't have the same name phrase and justice for all I don't like it okay that's one thing that drove me I didn't like have it. The movie opens with the kids saying the Pledge of Allegiance. I just like, okay. It feels very 1979. Yeah. That was my next one stage the worst.

The crazy long opening credits during an era when they didn't realize you could just start the movie and have the credits at the end of the movie. I feel like the movie is pretty brisk too. It's not really that slow. This was definitely a late 70s, early 80s. You will now sit here and watch four minutes of credits. I don't really have a problem with that, if I'm being honest. I love the 70s opening.

Yeah, I like to see who worked on the movie. That's something to matter. I don't really like this convention of like we don't do credits. Just start the movie. I don't like that either. Do you guys talk about this on letterboxed or no? Like favorite credits? All you're doing is giving us power.

Keep saying that word out loud, Bill. So this is dumb at what stage the worst. So when Tambor shaves his head, now not shocking, right? Everybody shaves their head in 2003. There's shaved heads everywhere. Oh, wow. You're going back to no one ever. shaved their head back in 1970. Nobody ever shaved their head.

I mean, it was a sign of like, you might be insane if you shaved your head. Travis Bickle. I mean, it's like boxers and Travis Bickle. And that was when Michael Jordan shaved his head like, I'm going to say 90, 91, it was like a big deal. Luke Asset had the shaved head and officer

and a gentleman. So people like, this Telly Savalas is a madman. That was another one. Yeah, Telly Savalas. But I mean, he came to us that way. Yeah. Imagine changes. Right. I mean, shaving your head was always a sign of mental instability. in movies and TV shows. This was the thing about Bruce Willis, right?

This was the person who maybe of all the stars we had, Woody Harrelson perhaps too, but Bruce Willis was the person who was like, I don't know what you want me to do. This is what's happening. I have the peninsula of Florida on the top of my head, and that's just how it's going to go, guys. This is how it's going to go.

And it probably, you know, he was also one of those people that they talked about in terms of it's just wild. So we got hung up on McConaughey and his hair talking about time to kill. Did McKinne's hair keep them back from a better IMDB. For men, it's a huge, huge

problem in the industry, right? Like, I mean, how they just create hair from scratch. Can't relate. Well, laity-da! Yeah. Okay. Good heads of hair. I don't have a lot going for me, but I do have that.

What else do you have for what stage is the worst? I've got a lot of things This is Wesley's favorite category I really don't understand what kind of lawyer Christine Lottie is supposed to be She stands for nothing Every time Petino She's sometimes with Pacino

Like this is this is the corruption that we're trying to fight Oh you should absolutely Maybe reconsider your defensiveness I mean she doesn't believe anything. I know that this is supposed to be like a symbolic representation of like staying on the fence. Yeah. But it's exasperating because the person that we really believe in morally and like kind of like as a personal lot is also falling for her. Yeah. With this nothing burger of a human being.

And she's just that her character is a device. Yeah. Thank God Christine Lottie is playing. She's a good actor because Christine Lottie can can act past the dumbness of the part. but come on can she I like her she's she's just got a really great natural presence I agree I always like Christine Lottie Joe Beth Williams Mary Beth

Mary Kay Place you put them in something Dee Wallace Stone do you have to have three names to be in this well Christine Lottie Derr Credit you know I don't know if she had one she'll be coming up later in the recasting couch shocking any other Woodsage is the worst

I I think if you do this movie now yeah jeff mccalla i think jeff mccalla is a white guy for the audience the guy who john forsyth sends away from the trest you know right like the idea that like the the thing the person we care most about maybe even before aggie a white guy getting wrong by the script is a is a white guy getting screwed by the system i mean you know it's very nineteen seventy nine come on um and i'm sure the story is probably that he gave the best audition or something like that but like as As a character, in the movie, you do care.

But I just kept thinking like, really? The person getting most screwed in 1979 by the system? Okay, whatever. And in Baltimore. And in Baltimore? Yeah. Okay. Thanks, Barry Williams.

You have any of what's aged worse? I do not like the score as much as I like Dave Pearson. I like it really ages the movie instantaneously. I'm with you. Ron Burgundy, Flood Award, best time for a peep break. No. Stay in your seats. Oh.

Yeah. Wow. Passing on it. Interesting. What about, hmm. No. Stay in your seats, everybody. That's a sign of a tightly constructed but also chaotic movie.

It's really good. Was there a better title for this movie? No. Best quote. There's law and there's order. Taps the gun. And that's order. Jack Worded.

He's also on the move. I like on the move lines of dialogue like that. I think he's leaving his chambers. And obviously you're out of order. That's like the signature quote. Right. Here's my Stephen A. Smith hottest take a word. I think this is Puccino's second best performance ever.

Oh, that's. Amen. Not hot? No, I disagree. No, I disagree. It's very hot. Keep going. Wait.

We'll discuss it. Oh, you. Oh. It's not even in the top five. Oh. Okay. I got Godfather part two. Yeah.

Oh, no. Okay. And then I have this second. Okay. Yeah. Are we, is this for, there, when later are we? talking about this? This is not the time the dog right now?

I mean, Dog Day Afternoon has to, has to, has to be in the top. Over this? Yeah, 100%. Okay. 100%. Because it's this, but more nuanced with a more complicated character, in my opinion. And I like a lot of the later stuff, too. Like?

I really like Donnie Brasco. Of course, I love heat. Yeah. I don't know if heat is in this conversation. I always like to any given Sunday. I mean, that's not saying nothing of Godfather. Scarecrow, Serpico, like all movies that I think are all feature, literally, literally some of the best movie acting in American history.

You know I have Heath third? Because Heets got a great ass! You got your head all the way up it! You have a hottest take? This is number two for you of all time? That's why my... I thought it was a hot take to put it to. There's two Godfather movies in the 70s.

I am embarrassed to say I would put in any. given Sunday in the top five. I think he's phenomenal in that movie. The speech is like some of the best stuff for his whole career. He's very good in that. The inches that are all around us. Sea of love?

See of love's good. Okay, now you're just naming. Another gross, another gross sex scene though. I, I, the thing. He's the Michael Jordan. That's the one. Carlino's way. What a soulful performance that is.

Not putting that over. This is an entire construction, right? There is architecture. Insider. What are you doing? Lowell Bergman. What are you doing? I'm just naming movies.

You're throwing movies at this movie. What about Dick Tracy? He wins the championship belt with this movie. He takes it from De Niro. What about in Godfather 3 when he's like, it was not what I wanted? That's one of the great movie moments of the 1990s. Come on.

You guys are crazy. All you're doing is making it more. You're making what we're saying all the truth. Oh, you missed. Wesley said Marissa Tomey should have been the Sophia Coppola part

in Godfather 3 and it's a different movie. I love that. You said that. I just agree with it. That's your idea. I just fully, I'm sad that it wasn't made.

I felt like we came up with it together. It's almost like you've done two podcasts today. A hundred percent I like, nobody's disagreeing with you. She'd have two Oscars at this point. Yeah, does that win best, best film that year?

I don't think that's the only thing holding that movie back for what's worth. No, that's the biggest thing holding that. It was hard to see at the time What else was wrong with the movie? Because that was so unbelievably wrong. I just want to say real quick

About this being the second, this being one of the top two to three Alpuccino performances. It's at the end of this run. He has figured out how to be a screen actor in a way that allows him to create character who makes sense who's going on a journey right yeah this is a great script for the kind of after he is because it lets him arrive at these explosive points it's a it's the nirvana song it's loud quiet loud it's like it's you got to go up and then he comes way back down to super internal then he goes

up and then he goes way back down but once he's up he kind of stays up there right because he gets broken by the system right i i do think that like there's a way for him to start the movie coming out of that jail cell keyed up. So you have dog day afternoon over this? I would take dog day after you. I would take both Godfather films and Dog Day Afternoon definitively over this. Wow. I find him

mildly exasperating in Dog Day Afternoon. That's just wrong. I think it's a I have more respect for you than anybody. I think it's a great piece of acting. But there's something about that performance that gets on my nerves. And I think, you know what I think? It's the up down. It's the up down

of that. I can't put Godfather 1 over it because I just can't get out the K Corleone pieces, scenes that it just drags it down to below top two. But those are the scenes. Do you want that on your tombstone? Kay. Bill Simmons. Kay, I'm back from Italy. My wife blew up.

Come with me. Leave all these 15 school kids behind you. Loving father. Extraordinary journalist. The K.K.K.K.K.K.R.1. Broadcaster. I've been right. People agree with me. Beloved husband.

She's good. Godfather, too. Son and father. Yeah. Guy hated K. Corleone. That's the last. In Godfather one.

bad character she doesn't take him back he moved to italy and married somebody else and he she never heard from him for four years yeah my friend he came back he's like getting the car love love love my friend brian's going to kill me for saying this clip i feel like what's happening in the godfather is a young actor trying to figure out how to make himself make sense as marlin brul Rando's son. That is a very interesting acting challenge that to me has never really been that. It's never. I've got to wrap this episode up.

We've entered a new level of SAS hot taste. Are we sure Al Pacino is good in the godfather? I just am saying it's bold. I appreciate the boldness. It's not even that I think it's a bad performance. I'm just in this, in the pantheon of Pacino, of great Pacino achievements of which that is obviously one. Yep. I would take injustice for all as a, as a, as a, as a performance that has to justify the existence of a movie.

The Godfather is great. Almost yeah, that's different. But that's different. That is not the same thing. I'm sorry, Michael Correlio. Yeah, yeah. I, I just feel like this is a completely. next level challenge for a great actor.

But I have a hotter take. Like, Gene Hacken can't do injustice for all? He could, but it's not. I have a hotter take. Okay, good. Michael Corley on Godfather 1. Not that hard of a part. All right.

This is basically, this is the last episode of the show, guys. Thanks so much. I'm glad you're able to be here today. It's, uh, I'm really glad that we're now completely gone. What is he got to do that? What is he's just being super quiet? I just, I'm, I just,

Godfather 2 is. I don't know what the fuck is going on. Godfather 2 is the best act for him so last 50 years. Godfather 1, he's feeling his way in the part. The great moment in the movie. One of my favorite pieces of acting is, exactly. That is one of the great pieces of acting. He's unbelievable.

I've never seen in a movie. So which one is it? Is it that that it's one of the greatest pieces of acting? That scene. Don't think it's that hard of a part. Listen, I actually think I'm with Bill on this one. You guys are insane. It's not that hard.

The movie literally doesn't work without him making the train. Transformation through the process of the movie. We're not from. He's great. We're saying he's great. But do I think De Niro could have also played the part? Yes. Do I think John Cazale could have played Michael Corleone?

Yes. That's, that's interesting. This goes right in the dumpster. This whole conversation. You should just cut this out. You should cut this out and you should send this to the CIA and just have it examined for demonic messages. Okay.

I got to call my father to make sure I think he got shot. he's really good it's not it's not a top of this is not about right this this for me is not about I think there's a way in which like the the sort of the team of the movie

right is sort of making the performance in the movie seem greater than it actually well it is an incredible ensemble not as you know and Justice Forall is not quite the same he's one of the best five guys in Godfather one one the best five performances okay now he just wants

Now he's John Forsything you. No. He's foresighted him? Uh-huh. Cazale's better than him? No, okay. Con is better than him. The whole movie, Fredo.

Con is better than him. Three people that are just flat out better than him. Khan, as you know, is one of my heroes. I don't think, overacting to the moon. That good in that movie. Overacting to the moon. He's phenomenal. And his energy is unparalleled.

Khan is amazing in that movie. But he's better than Al Pacino in the Godfather? Godfather won. Godfather won. It's just nonsense. Listen, I think that every, like, I think the thing about injustice for all, just to get back to courtroom money, is I really do believe that I would, I would actually pick this performance as being, um. The full package, Pacino. It's just everything that he's learned.

Yeah. As an actor. I won't argue that. And he is building a character that there's a lot of risk in. you know, there's a lot of trust and risk in Jewish and in the editor being able to pull it together, right?

This could go wrong in a lot of different ways. And I think the thing about Michael Corleone is just, it's just observation. Yeah, he's laying back. Is Colmenza better than him in that movie? I don't know. It's an argument. Should we get Chris Bressard in here as well? Should Nick Wright join us so we can discuss this?

You get the whole crew? You know I love Pacino. I just think Godfather One was a way easier part the Godfather 2. Godfather 2 is like the hardest plane to land that you can. Coming up next on first things first, Orson Wells, overrated. Oh, but that fight's been fought. Come on.

You guys are. There's a great segment with, just riddled with indecency. This is the hottest take segment. I'm doing my job. Casting what ifs we did. Rough low hand and Rubenick Partridge overacting Award.

Craig T. Nelson is Yeah. not really ready to be in a championship round fight but you're the one that's gonna come out of this looking like a jerk let me tell you something Arthur this is when you run of the mill Saturday night killings maybe we could deal

you know this is not this a healing it's too hot or this is not crazy any further questions from the state how are you doing this is a dream dream coming true you're not going to spoil it when I get flung me down I'm going to tear him crucify him my client Mr. Avalar has no prior criminal record.

He merely wanted to take her money. It's the Super Bowl. It's the Super Bowl and I'm the quarterback. And there's three seconds left to go and now he drove back to pass and there's a touchdown. Fleming's carried out of the stretch. Like he said, when Pacino's trying to get him to drop the case and he like leans into him.

Oh, I just found that so rude. It's very TV movie. It's just like, oh. And Pacino, being the actor, he is. He lays back. He's just like, okay. Yeah. Spit on me.

I don't care. It's good scene, but he's... Best that guy award. Uncle Jr. It's the car crash in the beginning. I want you to sue the son of a bitch who did this to me. Every cent he's got. Every nickel.

Thank God I can walk. Call you, all right? Disappeared. Why don't you just wait? She wasn't hurt. Nothing in the report. Why don't you wait in the car? Okay.

There's no need for the wife to know. All right. After all, I was your first. You know, Arthur? I was your first client. You broke cherry on me. Not the time. go down memory lane car let's just get you to the hospital get you checked out you like that you're the

best author you get every nickel then you have him put away i'll see he gets the death penalty car this movie is really if you really break it down by like behaviorally break it down it's really depressing like when when he shows when petino shows up at that car crash and though there's a woman in the car and you know that he has hired the woman to like yeah suck him off or whatever and he tells her get out of here. Get away from me. And she's standing in the background of the shot being like, is anybody, this is a black woman in a fur coat,

is anybody going to acknowledge that I am here? Are you even going to focus on me? She's just a blur in the background. It's just such an indictment of so many things without ever saying in a Padich-Chyevsky way. She doesn't get a speech. Yeah. The speech, her speech, is being blurred in the background.

Yeah. It's just such a, ugh. He is not the winner of the best that guy I wore at Elko Jr. It is that guy who also, who dies in this movie because he gets shot by the SWAT team, who also dies halfway through the Warriors. Oh, yeah.

Because they kicked him off the movie because he was so fucking annoying. And they fired him halfway through the movie and used an extra and threw him on the subway tracks and we never saw that guy again. It was supposed to be him and Michael Beck as the stars of the Warriors. Is that what happened?

Yeah. And this guy was so annoying. that they were like, he's out, he's fired, and they hired an extra and chucked him in front of a train. Thomas Waits. Yeah. Also in the thing, a couple years later. I did not know that.

That is an amazing story. And he acted like hot shit during the Warriors because he knew he had this Al Pacino movie coming. He was like, I'm the next guy. Wow. Dionne Waiter's a word. Probably Uncle Jr., right? He's in like two scenes.

He's coming in hot both times. Would you guys have ever recognized him, by the way? Yeah. I was staring at him. Like, I just, I was like, he just has that very specific intonation that I can hear Uncle Junior's voice in my head probably until I die. He's so much handsome or older than he is younger. Recast and coach.

Can I give you two people instead of Christine Lottie? Oh, interesting, yes. Merrill Street. Okay. Kramer versus Kramer Merrill Street. I think she was busy that year. Jane Alexander? Oh, I believe that.

Interesting. But maybe to, hmm. She couldn't have done. the blitheness of the part, right? Like, I think I would have found that character even more annoying if a more serious-seeming actor had taken it. Can I give you one more? Sure.

Margo Kidder. Oh. A little daffy, I think, for this part. You know, I rewatch sisters because I read the, I was dealing with Tarantino book. Yeah, yeah. And so I had been watching the movies as my boyfriend's been reading the book.

And so some of them I would I would jump in and out of You guys are so cute Yeah I mean One guy's reading a book the other guys watch the movies about the books What a relationship that is actually quite sweet He put on sisters and I came in for most of it Holy yeah It's amazing

Sisters is where I hate when 99% of the movies are remade And that would actually be an interesting remake But she Margot Kidder phenomenal. Jennifer Salt is not that great. No, no, she's not. But Margot Kidder, you watch her and you're like, okay, what

happened? Yeah. What happened to you? She's amazing. Well, I think we know what happened. Right. But nonetheless, she's smoldering hot in the amnative of her. Oh, she's just like, she's wondering. Even the demons like, wow. But she's so good.

And, you know, Superman, I mean, having her be Lewis Lane. Yeah. It just... That could have been a good Margo Kidder movie. She would be... Maybe she would have been good at this.

Maybe you're right. Overwhelmed. I don't know. It would have... I don't know what Pacino is doing with that energy. You know? Yeah, Christine Lottie's not

overtly sexy. She also is an overt at all. Yeah. Right? There's nothing... Margo Kidder is an overt actor. Right.

And that part does... I don't think that part... Like, you wouldn't believe that that person, if Margo Kidder at played her, that she'd be so neutral on everything. Mm-hmm. You wouldn't believe

should be on the fence the whole time. Half S internet research. Everything's filmed in Baltimore. Pacino did the year out of orders, seen 26 times. What? Like in front of a camera? I'm sorry, he practiced it.

Oh, okay. It's building. Sounds exhausting. Because it seems like he just did it once. The, uh, the part where Jack Warden fires the pistol in court, apparently Norman Jewison said in the audio commentary

was based on some judge in Texas. He used to do that. The coffee cake scene with Warden and Pacino took 26 takes and Warden threw up because he ate too much. You like coffee cake? I used to, yeah. You're out on coffee? Well, yeah.

This is kind of similar to how you used to feel about Al Pacino and the Godfather. Listen, it's the hottest take segment. I'm just doing my job. Are you sure coffee cake is good? Coffee cake is delicious. Coffee cake is great. Coffee cake is great. There's nothing better than coffee.

Entomis coffee cake. I grew up on that. Barry Levinson said of research in the film in real life, The first thing that strikes you is not to trust your first impressions. We'd see someone and say, gee, he looks like a nice guy and then discover he'd butcher his whole neighborhood. The second reaction is truth and justice aren't necessarily the same. Every trial is a unique personal drama with different motivations, circumstances. We want the law of the verdict to be absolute.

And a lot of the time it's not. And he revisited that theme a couple times in his career. Homicide life on the street. Yep, there you go. Yeah. Apex Mountain. Pacino? I think Godfather too for Pacino.

Apex Mountain. Still. I won't argue that. Jack Warden, it's somewhere around here and heaven can wait and... I think right after shampoo. Yeah. Yeah, it's somewhere in the 76 to the 7thamage. Maybe he's in Muppet's Steak Manhattan.

He's not in the Muppet movie. So I was going to say, what else does he have going on? I think it's Muppet. Yeah. Tambor is on this and Threys Company and getting spun off. off into the ropers at the same time. So shit's happening for him, but probably his arrested development slash

what was the Amazon show he was on? Transparent. Yeah. That didn't end great. Christine Lottie? That's one of the great TV performances. Christine Lottie? What's our Apex Mountain? Definitely Chicago Hope. Chicago Hope, right? Five years. So it's the star of Chicago Hope.

What do you got for Jewison? In the heat of the night? Apex Mountain. Moonstruck? Well, I mean, a lot had happened by then. So much. God.

I think that's been his most enduring movie. Like for people like my daughter's age. I feel like Moonstruck you mean? Yeah.

I think that's the one that's had the best legs. Yeah. Probably. That's a pretty, that's like how Legally Blonde's some of these other movies

they just kind of keep going. But in the heat of the night is a movie that will like will never die. That's, I think that's the It's a legendary movie. Yeah.

Courtroom meltdowns? It's this or Jessup. I'll rip off your head and piss on your dead skull. You fucked with the wrong Marine Yeah, it's courtroom meltdowns This is pretty big

I think this is the most cited All you did was weak in a country Today, fantasy I love a few good men so much Baltimore movies Apex Mountain Oh Baltimore movies Diner

I think it's diner I think it's dining Yeah All right. Diner, Tin Man. I'm trying to think what's something more recent. More recent? Just like in the last 30 years.

Is there a very, is a non-Barry Levinson, Baltimore movie? That's almost its own apex man. I mean, best racehorse name, Justice for All? Sure. What about Fleming's photos? That's good.

Picket Nitz. Why didn't they show Arthur punching Fleming? It seems like just a natural scene to have in the movie. But then it starts out, it kind of, I don't know, you just... You'd rather have been jail. You'd just rather have them in jail. You just rather have been jail. I do like when a movie doesn't feel like they have to show every single critical character moment.

Why weren't any black people working in Baltimore in 1979? Well, there are people all over the courthouse. There are just no lawyers, which makes a kind of sense to me. And in all the movies that we've been talking about, no black lawyers. I believe that. I totally believe that. Alphrey Woodard, of course, I don't know if you guys got into the black judge trope. We did.

We did. We did. We did. We did. We didn't fully go into the research I did on this, which was the black judges in America right now are 5.5% but it feels like in movies it's like 70%. Yeah. That's because it's easier to give them.

They're physically present but don't have to say anything except overruled or sustained the whole time. Easy counselor. Yeah. It's that's and you know, you get to be, you basically get to be a housekeeper, but you get to sit in the chair. You've been warned. You're on thin ice counselor. In this courtroom I'm the law. Y'all

want some sass. Just hire a black judge. You don't have to let her do anything. Can I see you in my private chambers please? Presumed innocent. Black judge. Yep. A few good men. Black judge. Primal fear. Black judge. What else? There's like 20 of them.

What's the movie that we didn't even talk about from the hip with Judd Nelson? I mean, no, it's it's endemic. It's at least two-thirds of the movies. Morgan Freeman and Bonfire, the Vanities. Yeah, good one. You know, I mean, there's always their way to make it to pretend it's a more diverse cast. It's, it is basically giving an, it is giving the most important job to the least important genre of actor according to the hot to Hollywood.

Damn. I'm searching black judges and movies really quick because I feel like there's some other ones we left out. This would be a great listicle. I should publish this. I mean, I feel like you probably, like everybody. except maybe who hasn't played Jen Dells never played a judge he's played lawyers

he's played lawyers multiple times right yeah no judges I mean because the judge is a thankless job like Morgan Freeman is not playing a judge and now he's playing a judge in 1990 pretty important job though yes obviously Sean but in the movies it's not

right Clarence Thomas is a judge Clarence Thomas is a justice that's a whole other thing he was a judge was he not I have one more pick a niff you guys. Be that as it may.

Hey, John Forcet, just get another lawyer. I don't like your Pacino playing that much. It's a bad plan. I'll get the guy who punched me once and that'll be my strategy. It's a real indictment of his

air. It's an indictment of it. It's an idea. Get the best lawyer in Baltimore and keep going. No argument. Any other pick of nits? I mean,

I think we've, I think I've picked all my nests. Sequel, prequel, prestige TV all blackcast are untouchable. It would be a TV show today about the inner workings of the Baltimore court system. Could we do prestige TV? Like if, would you give it a test

drive that it was like, HBO has a new show based on the 1979 movie and Justice for All, produced by Barry Levinson, written by some up-accoming screenwriter. It's said in Baltimore. You'd need all the crime writers, basically. You need... Would you watch the pilot, though? I'd feel like I would. Oh, sure. Starring Aaron Paul is Arthur Kirkland. Oh, no. But wasn't Like the night of is kind of a version of this, right?

Yeah. Yeah. That's the modern version. It's, it goes kind of, you know, formally, I don't really, they're very different things. But, I mean, they produce, they result in a not dissimilar sense of hopelessness in some way. Is this movie better with Wayne Jenkins, Danny Trailer, Catherine Hans, Deep Bouchemy, Sam Jackson, J.T. Walsh, or Philip Baker Hall. It's tough because this movie came out so long ago. I guess it would have to be a young Philip Baker Hall, right?

He's the only person old to know. Young Trio. What would, like, yeah, okay. He'd be like a teenager, though. Well, I mean, do we add Pesci into this list? Just because we said Pesci's going to, oh, you weren't there for that. We were saying, should we just add Joe Pesci to the better list? Is this movie better with Joe Pesci?

Oh, I think it's actually the opposite. it where Joe Pesci only made like 14 movies and that's kind of great that he was just like I'm not really interested in working for nine years So no movie is better with Joe Pesci Well he just each role gets to be iconic So you don't have to worry about thinking about him in any other role You know Wayne Jenkins is from Baltimore

Oh yeah that's that's fair But he would totally tip this movie over And this is a movie that starts Al Pacino I think the Wayne Jenkins performance is directly inspired by Al Pacino in this era I don't have any answerable questions. We had everything. Well, I have one, which is, was Pacino always going to tip over into the mistrial?

Or was it Forsyte saying to him? I think 100% it was right before. Yeah, I think Forsy's I mean, so he was just going to defend him. Yeah. Because he wasn't, he wouldn't have been lying at that point. At the point at which Forsyth basically says, no, but, but not specifically when he admits that he did it, but specifically when he says, I'd like to have another go at her or whatever terrible awful thing he says when he sees the woman in the corner that felt like the moment where Pacino's character decides like fuck this guy we're taking him down possibly yeah

yeah yeah I mean I don't that somewhere during that sequence he's like I can't do this I can't do this is undoable what's your best double feature choice of this movie Sean is it Doug Day afternoon just pack them probably I think so

I mean you could make you could say like this would be really good with diner or with thin man or Oh yeah, you go Baltimore movies? Yeah, this then diner. I like that. I mean, you could go, you could stay in Pacino Lawyerland and say Devil's Advocate.

Yeah. Oh, that's good. I like that. I mean, that's an option. That's really good. Might be happening on this podcast. You could also do a Frederick Wiseman movie like domestic violence,

like something that leaves you in the criminal justice system, you know, and a city at the same time. It would be a bold programming. I would go to that double feature. The Indian Red Zawatney Award for what happened the next day. Arthur gets disbarred.

Yeah. He moves to California. He's got to leave the state. Works for his uncle's nursing home. He probably goes into business for himself, right? We don't know if it'll get disbarred. Right? Like, I mean, I don't know.

It's not looking good for him. Comes the jam of the quippers. I don't know. I'm just trying to. Oh, my God. More really more of the Baltimore Bullets at that time, right? Yeah, I don't think. it ends great for him.

No, I don't think that's the message you're supposed to get. When you're disbarred, does that mean no aspect of the legal system you can work in? I think there are things, there are workarounds. But basically, you cannot practice long. Could you be a professor? You can probably, yeah, you can be a professor.

There it is. He's become some professor. I think it means you have to spend the rest of your life re-evaluating Pacino's performance in the Godfather. Oh, my goodness. I just said it wasn't top five. That's not what you said. What did I say? Are we sure that was a hard part and was he good?

How hard of a part was it? Very hard. I think the Louis restaurant seemed a super hard. It's one of the greatest pieces of art of the 20th century. It was hard. Part two is so much harder. And then in the end of part two, he's got to go back to being young Michael again. I don't know.

I really, I really. Don't back off now. No, no, no, no, no, no, no. I'm 100% with you in terms of where in, like, I'm not choosing this to be the great Al Pacino performance. You're bullying me now, but what you can't hear is every listener in the universe. Nobody's bullying you. Listen, we just speak. Why are we even using a term like bully?

Where did bully come from? We're just people talking. That's some letterbox shit. He's bringing in. Nobody's bullying. I'm actually, like, I think that we, in the scheme of things, if we leave Pacino land, this is not a conversation worth having. It's a great piece of acting. I think the conversation, relatively speaking.

The conversation we're having is where in Pacino's performance ranking, does a person being honest with him or herself put this movie? I think my thing with Godfather, my thing with Godfather, one, is it's still a young actor figuring out a lot of things about who he was, both as an actor and the performance and everything. He almost gets fired from the part like two times. By the end of it, I think he figured it out,

and it vaulted them, faulted him to the point where part two happens, which I think is the best performance of the last 50 years by an actor. I'm still holding it. Is that a hot take? I just don't feel it is. if you, I mean, because I actually think, I mean, I'm not saying this about you, but I think

that in some ways, this is kind of like, you know, I'm not a big raging bull person as a performance. I think that performance has done so much harm to acting. We kind of alluded to it earlier, but I mean, I think that is the single most ruinous performance maybe of the movies. And I think, you know, Scarface is probably number two. Oh, wow. And I just think that, that, those four people. You mean for people emulating?

And we, yes. What does that have to do with Pacino and the Godfather? I think that there's a way in which, I'm talking about received wisdom, right? Yeah. I think there's a way in which something about the way we think about raging bull in Petino's, basically De Niro's performance. I feel like we, we've lost the ability to sort of think about what actually. is happening here relative to the other things to Neroen's done.

Right? And I think that in Pacino's Godfather case, I think the importance and greatness of the movie has conferred a kind of automatic greatness upon the performance that does not, to me, hold up to scrutiny.

I think it's got, I think it's got an extremely good moment. You know, obviously the assassination sequence in the restaurant. Ten stars. The first hour of the movie, he just gets to basically lay out. Do you only go through scenes in which he's extraordinary in the godfather? Yes.

When he arrives at the wedding and he explains decay the lay of the land amongst the families and he explains Luca Bratsey and he's the wet behind the ears kid who gets shipped off who's going to be the senator, that is one part of the character before he makes a radical transformation later in the film when he wants to seek revenge and he's talking to Clemenza and you see internally the wheel spinning and him to determine. and in determining. That's good. Later in the film,

after he's taken revenge, and he needs to go to Italy and he needs to experience all this pain and agony and then falling in love and then having to come back to America and then totally making the turn where he has to defend his father,

move his father around the hospital. The scene with the dad is great. Guys, come on. Tennessee's pulling you back now. We're overthinking something. I think what you're saying is true, which is that a lot of times we assume that something is great

because what surrounds it is great. In the case of Alpatician, He becomes Al Pacino because of Michael Corleone. That is what happened. Yes. And I, again. And the godfather becomes the godfather because of Al Pacino. Now, Marlon Brando as well and Francis Ford Coppola.

There's a lot of contributors. Totally. The only reason to even go down this road is to mount a defense for injustice for all being like one of the top top top. I think we've got said that about James Conn. Oh, he's, he's going for it. I like Santino. You know, I love Santino.

Iconic character. Of course, but pinnicokele of names is a concordier. Iconic character separate from great performance. What piece of memorabilia would you want from Majestus for All? I think the wig. I don't know who kept the wig. The suitcase that he hits the car with? Coach Finstock will wear best life lesson

Don't trust the American justice system Don't become a lawyer Don't become a lawyer Don't think you can change the world as a lawyer I think I think I think keep fighting right Is that the message? Oh my God

You're so optimistic I don't Better human than us Because the system still exists right Like and I obvious I mean I don't know Obviously it is But like I mean I

There are so many reasons to not trust or believe in the system, but it's the only one we've got. And the more people in it who respect, understand, uphold its virtues, the better the system is. This is a person who understands this

and the sort of tragedy of the movie is that it flushes him out because he knows this. I mean, it's easy to sort of like accept the movie on its face value and look at this guy, you know, outside this courthouse and be like, oh, well,

I guess there's nothing we can do but I mean, you know, I don't have the luxury of being like, oh well, I guess I have nothing we can do. Right? That's fair. I mean, I just feel like this and this is a, also if Barry Levinton and made this movie and never gone back to Baltimore, never revisited

the criminal justice system in that city, I think that this is a movie that is the beginning of an argument about reform. Mm-hmm. Right? It is not the end of a conversation about you know, the sort of lies that a movie like To Kill a Mockingbird

tell us about the justice system. It's tricky though because a lot of Barry Levinson's movies are about going back into the past when things were easier and better. Well, welcome to White Hollywood, Sean. You know, he doesn't really... I mean... Who won the movie Al Pacino?

Yes. Yes. Isaiah, what'd you think? It's an interesting movie. I just How the story is told feels a little bit discharging To be honest Okay

It was probably my biggest nitpick Like there's really great scenes in it But I just feel like They touch on a lot of things But don't wrap up Almost anything Interesting Whatever whatever happened to

Warden's character Who is suicidal Exactly That's like somebody I wondered Like we see him last with a gun in his mouth and then nothing. And we forgot to mention Jeffrey Tambord tipping his wig.

Yeah. Was like one of the most famous shots of the movie. Yeah. We didn't even mention that until the podcast right now. I mean, I don't know. I think this is one of, this is a style of movie I love.

Me too. Which is that nothing really gets like resolved. Because you know that the questions it's raising are bigger than any one plot thread, right? And this is a generational thing, though. What do you mean? Because Isaiah's generation. wants answers and things to come to their conclusion.

And these 70s movies, a lot of them, like, the whole point of it was there was no conclusion. It's more about the questions they're raising than the answers. That's what the message of the movies are. But it's more leaving you with questions and fears more than actual answers. Like, I don't know what happens to Jack Warden's character, but I'm guessing it's probably not great. I'd assume he blows his head off. He probably kills somebody in the courtroom at some point. Tambor definitely goes nuts.

Yeah. No, I mean, I think that like the atmosphere is in many ways. Like that is the, that is what the movie is actually like about, right? Yeah. It is the feeling. It is the despondency it's leaving you with. The hopelessness. You know, this isn't, this is many people with a lot of story, but not a lot of plot.

It's about people behaving and unless they die. Well, and also. There is no, there is no, how arbitrary it is where your lawyer shows up two minutes late and all of a sudden now you're in jail for another year and a half. Yeah, yeah. But I mean, I hear you. It is, there are like seven different things happening at many different,

at many different times. And there are scenes where Petino's not even in them, right? Where, you know, he set something in motion and we see, at some point, like, like, Brighman, you know, at lunch with this guy remembering and you was the audience member, like, what are you doing? Why are you at lunch? I forgot to mention one thing that I didn't have an answer for for probably an answerable questions.

What was that outdoor covered pool thing, John Forsyth had? Have you ever seen that in your life? It was, it was like a pool sauna. I've never, I've never seen. I mean, trying to keep the steam in the pool so that you're in a hot pool. I've never seen that in my life. I've never seen an ad for that. I'm sorry.

I don't know what that was. I don't, it might just be as simple as this is a man with a lot of freaky-dicky shit going on. Yeah. Yeah. And this is another realm. for him to practice some pretty eating shit. Some sauna pool. I mean.

Like I said before, there's a little bit of like Dracula's cave. Yeah. Satan's layer aspect to it. One of my roles is when you're posing during sex for photos, probably you're a freak. How many have you posed for? That's it for injustice for all. Wesley? That's your third quarter? Now you're sad.

You're not going to be here for the other two. I'm sad because of the movie. I'm sad because, you know, my, my time and in courtroom month is you'll be back for the re godfather which will be great fantasy thank you thanks bill isaiah blakely thank you um we'll back a couple more courtroom movies left so stay tuned