The Rewatchables - ‘Batman’ (1989) With Bill Simmons, Chris Ryan, and Sean Fennessey

Episode Date: March 8, 2022

The Ringer’s Bill Simmons, Chris Ryan, and Sean Fennessey dance with the devil in the pale moonlight after rewatching Tim Burton’s 1989 hit ‘Batman,’ starring Michael Keaton, Jack Nicholson, and Kim Basinger. Producer: Craig Horlbeck Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Coming up on the rewatchables, F-Dup Family February is finally over. Let's do some superhero movies. Batman, 1989, next. This episode is brought to you by Adobe Firefly, the all-in-one creative studio with AI-powered image and video generation. Built for today's creative process, Firefly helps you generate, edit, and experiment fast,

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Services not available in all areas. We're also brought to by the Ringer podcast Network. I hope you're listening to the Prestige TV podcast. I broke down winning time there, episode one with Joe House. We also had super pumped with Chris Ryan and Joanna Robinson, episode two. Breaking that down. In general, the Prestige Pod is about kick into overdrive because there is just a ton of good TV now.

We covered the drop out there as well. So stay tuned for that. If you like this pot, I'm 99% sure you're going to enjoy the Prestige TV podcast as well. Coming up, we're going to do Batman, 1989 version on Batman. It's next. The real story. The love story. A woman in danger.

A hero in black. The adventure you've been waiting for. Where did you get those wonderful toys? What are you? I'm Batman. Ready, PG-13, now playing at a theater near you. All right, Sean Fantasy is here. Chris Ryan is here.

We're going to talk about the 1989 Batman. The Batman came out on Friday. Sean, you liked that movie? I did. I liked it a lot. Chris, you liked it? I did. Bill, when are you going to see it? Probably this week.

probably when my son was like come take me is I guess it's time going back to the movie theater you had to wear masks is there masks I believe the mask mandate has been lifted in in Los Angeles yeah the reason we want to do the 1989 one was it's the start of everything it's the start of the superhero boom it's the start of how to market a modern action movie it is all these things it was really fun to research this and to you know know, to remember bat mania and how the merchandise and the trailer and all this stuff. Sean, how old were you when 1989 came out? I was just turning seven years old.

Okay. Chris, how old were you? 12. So, Chris, do you remember this whole hype leading up to the movie? Because I was in college at this point, so I remember everything. But what do you remember? I remember it being the biggest thing in my life. Just like the knowing it was coming, seeing the billboards that just was the bat symbol. And the feeling around this movie that I think would be replicated a couple of times over the course of my childhood.

Most notably with Jurassic Park where you just like know something is just going to be the biggest thing in movies and in culture. But this was the first time, I think, this was the biggest movie experience of my life up into that point that I could remember at least. Sean, does this happen anyway or did Batman unlock something that would eventually ruin movies as you love them? Well, I have a complicated relationship with it because I do like a lot of superhero movies, but I hate what they've done to the industry. You know, in a way, it already did happen in 78 with Superman. And then strangely, the movie industry didn't capitalize on it. For whatever reason, aside from making three more Superman movies, there were not a lot of comic book movies. You know, there was like a Howard the Duck movie and there was like a Punisher movie, but there were not a ton of comic book movies in the 1980s.

And so I think that it's as much a story about studios getting wise to the concept of intellectual property and making movies about things that already existed in the wider world because of that merchandising point that you're making, Bill. You know, going to see the movie Batman was as much about for a kid like me getting a, you know, a toy Batmobile and for a teenager to get a Batman logo t-shirt and for a person in their 20s getting the Batman soundtrack album from Prince, you know, this was like a fully integrated. synchronized, mega corporate execution centered around a movie. And that is obviously where we are in our culture right now. So it's hugely important. So I'm old enough to remember the Superman movie, which was a really big deal. It was a really big deal that they found it unknown to play Superman, Christopher Reeve. It was a big deal that Marlon Brando was in it.

I had no fucking idea who Marlon Brando was. That meant nothing to me. But it felt like a big deal and it felt like you had to go see it in the theater. I also love Superman too. Like I remember being super pumped for Superman 2 and seeing that in the theater. I might even seen that one twice. Yeah, you were kneeling before Zod. Oh my God.

Superman 2 is incredible. I stayed by Superman 2 now. Superman 1 is slow. It's, you know, you watch that now and it really feels like an old, old Buckbuster. But Superman 2 is a cool movie. And then the next two bombed. Superman 4 has to be one of the worst movies of the 80s, which is really saying something.

Superman 3 was not good either. And it felt like that superhero thing just kind of died. And at the same time, they're trying to figure out this Batman thing, that whole decade, basically off the success of the first Superman, how do we do this with Batman? And my relationship with Batman was that was one of the coolest TV shows of my childhood. And it was the Adam West and Bert Ward and, you know, the Ridler and the Joker and the Penguin and Kavana.

Catwoman, the reruns would come on. You would never know which one was on. I saw all of them multiple times. There were ones that I really loved. And, you know, for my generation, we were just in on Batman. So when they started this hype machine, we were like, cool. Batman, movie. But now I look back and I think, like, Chris, like, this is where the root of all the

evil starts. Because they had us. They had us for nine months getting ready for this. And it just showed the blueprint. for everybody else. Yeah, and, you know, this is something that the movie itself touches on this a little bit. And then Jurassic Park certainly has like a meta quality to it about like the idea of merchandising the shit out of movies and making everything a lunchbox and making everything into something

about materialism. But certainly with like a wink and a nod because then they also reap the benefits of all that materialism and commodification of art. I guess the question I always ask myself about the superhero stuff is if it hadn't been superheroes, would it have been something else. I mean, there's always been a dominant genre play in Hollywood, whether it's Westerns or musicals or whatever. And I'm sure that there are people around in the 40s and 50s who are like, Westerns aren't really my bag. You know, like I don't really care about horses. And I'm sure they were felt left out.

You know, I think it's not necessarily the superhero part that bothers me these days as as much as it is the storytelling part that goes into the superheroes. And the idea that you basically are always trying to kick the can down the. road and keep people waiting for that next fix of a movie and not really telling a complete story. That's the thing about Batman, the 1989 Batman, is that underneath it all, if you look under the hood, it's a pretty lean, mean movie. It's like basically a two-hander. It's basically like mono-e-mono, as Joker puts it. And it's very, very understandable, even if it's kind of campy and sily in places. They took some good chances with it. Tim Burton had only done two movies and was

a really respected up-and-coming director, but not the typical choice to do this. Keaton was, that almost caused a riot when they named him. And then Nicholson, who's one of the biggest stars in the world, gave it the credibility. That was the one that made me want to see it,

other than the whole Batman premise. He was like, oh my God, Jack Nicholson's in this. What's interesting is there were other movies that summer. This is actually a great summer. We can go through it later. But my friends and I were just as excited for the Indiana Jones movie.

Oh, yeah. It just didn't have the same hype machine. It didn't have this nine-month fervor leading up to it. But I was probably more excited for the Indiana Jones movie. But Batman unlocked this recipe that, you know, unfortunately, for better and worse, became what we're doing. They sold Sean, 750 million worth of merchandise sold off this movie. Back to the future, I think. think the third one was leveraging some of this too where they they had a lot of cross-promotion

but this one they had the MTV steal the Batmobile contest that was big like MTV was still going they Sylvester Stallone had an interesting quote he said it was the beginning of a new era the visuals took over the special effects became more important than the single person I wish I had thought of Velcro muscles myself I didn't have to go to the gym all those years all those hours wet of the iron game as we call it Sean do you think this killed action movies eventually. This is where it shifts from the Stallone Schwarzenegger era. It starts

shifting to comic books. I think that's a convenient excuse for Sylvester Stallone to account for why he was not at the center of Hollywood anymore. Bruce Willis is not exactly a muscle-laden like meathead. He's like basically a balding taxi driver who becomes like

the coolest guy in the world after Diard. I think it's notable that Batman is the character that emerges out of the late 80s and into the 90s. that Superman is at the end of the 70s and coming into the 80s and the sort of, you know, on a shining hill, Ronald Reagan moment and this sense of like morality and decency being promoted constantly in our culture. And then, you know, as we get into the 90s, which are a little, there's a little bit more dirt under our fingernails as a culture. And, you know, we see like the presidential administration

changes. And Batman comes in and Batman is a vigilante. He's somebody who doesn't play by the rules. He's somebody who lives at night. He's somebody who does what he wants with his, with his power. And what he wants is theoretically moral and about integrity, but Batman is also a psychopath. I mean, he's like a crazy character. He's the whole conception of it. And even in the Burton movie, Burton always makes movies about outsiders

and people who are sort of like trying to figure out how to fit in, but we know that it'll never happen. But Batman in particular, like, it's kind of extraordinary that he's become really like one of the central, like, creations of the 20th century. He really, like, courses throughout our popular culture for like you said, Bill, going back to the 60s TV show, I mean, 60 plus years now, because this is like a psychotic billionaire who dresses up at night and beats the shit out

of people. And that's just so fascinating. Why do kids love that? Why did 20-somethings love that? Why did 58-year-old men line up to go see the Batman over the weekend? It's an really interesting question. I remember being disappointed that Robin wasn't in it. Because my version of that, I wasn't a comic book guy.

So I really was the TV show for me. And it was always Batman and Robin. Yeah. And they were a team. and they were together and just never happened. So I'm going to read you a list. These are releases week by week, May 19th through July 24th, 1989.

Week by week, roadhouse, Indiana Jones of the Last Crusade, Dead Poets Society, Star Trek 5, Ghostbusters 2, Batman and Honey I Shrunk the Kids, same weekend. Wow. Do the Right Thing and Karate Kid 3. same weekend. Weekend at Bernie's.

Karatekin 3. Karatekin 3, you do the right thing is an insane double feature. Neck and neck and the AFI greatest films of all time. I might have seen those same day. Weekend at Bernie's. Lethal weapon 2. And then together,

license to kill and when Harry met Sally. Better summer that I remembered for big-ass movies. And movies that hit basically everything. The only thing that's not in there is horror. but it was a really fun time to like movies, to go to movies, to, you know, the premiere magazine,

which I was reading the Batman issue that they did about Keaton, but it was when they were really starting to write about movies at that point. I have a theory, Chris, let me know how you think of this, that the 80s die once and for all during the Prince montage when they're defacing the art in the Batman movie.

But that's the official end of the 80s. 80s. People like, when do the 80s die? At the Flugaheim Museum that they go to? Some people say the Berlin Wall. To me, it's like that moment where it's like the 80s are now over. We're using a print song to watch Jack Nicholson to face

art while wearing Joker makeup. While he dances around in a purple suit. Yeah, we're moving to a new decade right now. Gentlemen, let's broaden our minds. Lawrence. Yeah, I mean, I think that's one of the scenes that I wonder

if they could take it back that they would. The idea that that is in any way terrifying or scary. But, you know, when you think about the people involved in that scene, it's Jack Nicholson and Prince writing music for Jack Nicholson to dance around to.

That wouldn't, like, there's no equivalent I can even think of for what that would be today. I can't imagine the instruct, I wish there was video of Tim Burton instructing Nicholson what to do in the scene. So you're just going to dance and seemed crazy.

And like, were they playing the print song as they were doing it? So this is the thing is, maybe we can get into this now, but like the re-watching this movie, and I've seen it like a bunch over the years and I obviously saw it like multiple times in the theater when it came out. I forgot that this is the Joker movie.

It's not a Batman movie. That's right. Like it's basically, you know, the Joker's origin. The Joker has the rise and fall. The Joker has the character art. The Joker is the person who's putting everything into action. And when you watch it, you can see how wrong this would have gone

if it wasn't somebody who actually was like, there are no boundaries for me. Like, Nicholson is definitely, like, so entirely bought in on this, probably because he stood to make $90 million or whatever it was that he had, like, on the back end. But if this has been a, if this had been a character who would have been, or an actor who was like, I'm too cool for this. It never would have worked. If they were, if you had pulled back on like, for instance, dancing in the museum, I don't know if it would have been as is memorable. Or when they're in the porn theater and he pulls out the dild. I know. There's actually not, there are a few callbacks. Now that I know, it's like, the departed calls back to this movie a couple of times. I had the same thought,

Chris. But like this is, it's who else would play this character but him? They're at, It's a great casting what if, and I'm sure you have an incredible list, Bill. But Jack Nicholson made his name on characters having absolute meltdowns, you know, from Easy Rider all the way through the Witches of Eastwick right up until this moment. His best scenes in The Shining, in One Flo over the Cuckoo's Nest,

in King of Marvin Gardens, even where he's playing against hype. Him losing his, blown his top is what people showed up for, you know? It was like going to watch somebody score 50 points in a basketball game. He went to go see him do his Jack Nicholson thing. So he was so perfect for this. And not surprising at all that he was so game to go way over the top.

Because I think whether it's too over the top is an interesting conversation. Right. Because he has like, he eats the movie alive in so many ways. I was taking watch. I hadn't seen it a couple of years how close this performance is to Jack Torrance in the Shining, the last hour of the movie. Basically the same guy. He's just wearing makeup. But, you know, as he's kind of losing it and as he's walking around the overlook looking for Danny and when his wife interrupts him when he's on the typewriter, it's really not, I don't really think he's playing a different person.

I'm not going to hurt you. I'm just going to bash your brains in. I'm not going to hurt you. But so much of what's memorable about that part and a lot of what's memorable about this movie feels like it basically comes straight from Nicholson, whether it's improvised or whether it's just like he is a unique singular talent and singular personality and it just like emanates through this whole thing well he made 11 million dollars for doing this i think he made a lot more right like way more which we're going to get into but it was an 11 million salary which everybody thought was a big deal but then it turned out it was actually not 11 million

it was like 6 million and he got all this percentage that his biographer estimated he might have made like 90 million bucks from this movie leading up to it. So this is from 83 on. Terms of Endearment. Huge part. Incredibly successful movie. Pritzie's Honor.

Heartburn. Which is at Eastwick. Scott, the extended fun came out on broadcast news and ironweed. I wouldn't say like he was on fire, but he was still one of the biggest stars in the world. I think you could argue this might have been his most important performance from a legacy standpoint. because the Oscars, all that stuff, I'm saying from a pop culture standpoint, I think this is the first movie

a lot of people would think of with him. I mean, they wouldn't for the three of us. But this was his crossover movie in a way that if it wasn't this as a crossover movie, what would you pick, Sean? Well, he was in movies in the 70s that were big hits. I think that the tricky part about that is that the Heath Ledger performance

kind of, I don't want to say it negated it, but it pretty immediately went to the top of the heat in terms of the portrayal of this character of a bad villain. And like up until that point, I think you're right, because obviously it's so iconic and he's so memorable in that part. But you know, when you

read the obituary, you know, they'll kick off with wonderful of the Ku Klux Natch, Chinatown, you know. But I mean, in terms of making him like a megastard, this movie made $250 million in 1989. That did not happen. This had the biggest opening weekend of any movie in the history of movies when it first came out. And Batman Returns had the biggest, you know, opening after that.

So, like, it became the signature franchise in major entertainment for a long, long time. So as far as, like, making him significantly more famous, it definitely did. But by this point, he's also, he's an Oscar winner and he's nominated, like, 10 times at this point. He just spent the 80s figuring out that it was like how to become a great role player. You know, he's more interested in taking parts of it. like terms of In Zeerman Park. He's only in like 40 minutes of that movie, but he's so magnetic.

Broadcast news season. Same thing. It's like a five minute thing. Bill, you said like this is the end of the 80s. In a lot of ways, though, I think this is like Jack Nicholson

getting courtside seats for pop culture. Like, yeah. After this, you know, he's been sitting courtside for Showtime Lakers. He's an icon in that regard.

This is like, I don't know if it's the start or the middle or the end or whatever, but like now he's in the first row at the Oscars. He's the person everybody looks to. He's the person everybody jokes. with, he becomes basically, like, I don't know, the emeritus, like the professor of pop culture. You know what I mean? He's like the face of the most popular movie, the face of the most popular

sports franchise, the face of the award ceremony that honors movies, he's basically on the $1 bill. But also kind of the mascot, too. You know, like, it's all kind of a joke with him in a fun way. Sure. That's what makes him great. Yeah, the reason I brought up the pop culture thing was, So you have Nicholson and you have Pacino and you have De Niro, right? And probably Hoffman. But Hoffman had the ability a couple of times to cross over with Kramer versus Kramer and Tutsi and whatever. But what's funny about the other three, all of them in this window here take these pop culture parts in these movies where they're not even like De Niro's in the Untouchables. He's not even really in that movie that much.

Pacino does Dick Tracy, which is a really tough. watch. But they all kind of felt like, all right, I've, I've won all my, I basically, I've won my titles, but now I need to do something that's a little bit bigger. Like, I want to impress my nephew, you know, this is like an impress your nephew part crossed with how much money he made. I think it's a weirdly important Nicholson part, you know, because it's the one pop culture part he had that I think people would kind of point to first, you know, and be like, oh yeah, that one. Whereas like De Niro, it would be like, meet the parents.

You mean for like somebody who's under 30? Somebody like my son. My son's never going to watch Chinatown. My son's never, you know. He should. My son know I'm actually from The Shining, you know? You're not driving around being like, Ben, have you ever wondered how L.A. gets its water? Right.

Well, then Nicholson, two years later, does a few good Ben, which is another one, right? Yeah. So he clearly, like, he's shifting his focus. in some way from, I'm just going to make the best possible movies to something else. That's a really good observation though about De Niro and Pacino and Nicholson all taking on those parts because those guys had spent a long time being the center of their stories and the kind of the hero of their stories. And the villain is always the most fun part to play. And all three of those parts are the villain parts. And all three of those guys kind of felt like

they had been waiting to play villains for a long time. There's something kind of evil. And Nicholson played literally the devil in a movie a few years before that. And it still wasn't as evil as the Joker. Like the Joker seems actually more insane than the devil. What do you, but do you think there's a chicken and egg thing there where it's like these,

these guys know that last detail and straight time and Serpico aren't going to get made anymore so they better get while the getting's good? Do you think they saw the writing on the wall? Yeah. I think they like money too. Yeah. Yeah, the money piece.

That is like, There's a point in that your career as like these A plus list actors. It's weird because Daniel DeLuess has never happened to him. Where they kind of go, how much? And all of a sudden they're in movies like this. Chris, do you think Nicholson should have been nominated? I'll give you best supporting actor. Denzel wins for glory.

Danny I. L. Do the right thing. Dan Aykroy, driving Miss Daisy. We take that one out. Marlon Bredo, a dry white season. And then Martin Lando and crimes and misdemeanors. I mean, the question is, is it best actor? Is it best actor? He's top build in this movie, and he has as much, if not, more screen time than Keaton.

So what was best actor that year? Yeah, but they don't do it that way. He would have been best supporting. Best actor, Daniel Day Lewis won for My Left Foot. Branagh for Henry V, Tom Cruise, born the 4th of July, Morgan Freeman, driving Miss Daisy, and Robin Williams did Poet Society. Good list that year. That's a good list.

Yeah. I believe he was actually nominated for Best Actor at the Golden Globes. Was he that year? Nicholson, I think so. Yeah, let me double check that. Feels like the Oscars, he should have been in one of the categories. It was such an unbelievable performance to see in the theater. Like, he's just really going for it the whole time. Yeah, they have this listed as a comedy or a musical,

but best performance in a motion picture actor, Nicholson was nominated. Wow. We'll take a quick break, a couple other things to talk about. This episode is brought to you by Viori. Look, I'm not a big, let's hype up, workout clothes guy. But Viori, I got to say, total game changer. Been wearing a lot. If you see me power walking around Los Angeles,

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Your car, your timeline, your turn. Visit Carvana.com to sell your car today. Carvana. Pick up fees may apply. All right, so Tim Burton, he goes in, and this has this weird history that they're trying to make this for a decade. And the guy who ran Warner, Mark Canton, they talked to Tim Burton about it.

And Tim Burton was like, let's go much darker. Let's talk about moral decay. and this guy who this is a story not about the guy wearing the cape, it's about how fucked up Bruce Wayne is. And somehow this gets greenlit and they go and they're off. This movie re-watching it

way darker. I mean, literally darker. It's like actually hard to see in some spots. It's weird to think that this made so much money. But way darker and more sinister. We're used to that now in 2022. too. Everybody loves anti-heroes and going dark and in a lot of ways this movie set the

template. But Chris, were you surprised were you watching this, how kind of not fun it is in certain parts? Yes and no. I mean actually, after watching a three-hour The Batman, like that's like where it's raining constantly and it's closer to seven than it is

the Batman TV show. Batman, the 1980-I movies seemed pretty light in comparison. It's got all these like Art Deco flourishes and kind of like very much feels like a soundstage movie in certain places, although one of like a remarkable piece of set design. Um,

but I thought it was poppier than I remembered, you know, and, and, and a little bit more brighter. Obviously, all the stuff like, with Bruce is pretty dark,

but I, you know, the amount of color that they have in this movie with the purple and the, when Joker turns in, when Jack turns into Joker and starts wearing the makeup and it's kind of goofy too. I mean, even, I'm sure in 1989,

I was absolutely scandalized by the, the mob boss getting electrocuted and having a shrunken head. But when you watch it now, it's like, it's pretty quaint. What did you think, Sean? I don't remember thinking it was darker or less dark because I don't think I had much of a frame of reference the first time that I saw it being so young. I think I was just totally transported into the world. This is probably when I got really obsessed with Tim Burton. I mean, I was really, really, really, really into Tim Burton. Shawnee Scissorhands they called you. The first six movies, I I think are like as good as any filmmaker in the 80s is first run of movies.

And the fact that he was like a pretty young guy when he took this on and helped create this world. And you know, he's like famously a dyslexic person. And so the stories of his movies are not always the best parts, but they always look amazing. And I haven't loved a lot of the movies he's made in the last 15 years. But Anton First, who did the production design in this movie, won an Academy Award for it. Like it looks, it's incredible. I mean, there are aspects of it that look as good today as they, did the day that it came out. And you can't really say that about, especially superhero stuff.

I mean, it tends to age like milk. So it's kind of amazing just a vision he had for the movie. And, you know, Batman is, he's the dark night. Like he, this movie has to be dark and at night. And it has to be, it has to be kind of dower a little bit because of how dower the character is. But I'm, I, I, I imagine it was like kind of shocking relative to everything that was out in the world at that time. Yeah, really felt unique. So did Die Hard though. I mean, there's a, there's a lot of innovation. going on in the late 80s with how movies look that I think, you know, do the right thing. It was another one. With Burton, you won't be shocked to know I wasn't as big of a fan of the IMDB as you were.

A beetle juice in Peeley. Yeah. Right? I did like Beetlejuice, but, you know, it's kind of hard not to like beetle juice. It's not one I've watched 30 times, but I did like that one. That was probably my favorite. It's like a hardcore five-star movie. It's one of the most creative movies I've ever seen.

I love that movie. It's really. And it rejuvenated Keaton's career. Incredible cast, too, yes. Yeah, Keaton was in a real slump, which was part of all the stories in the Premier Magazine. The whole feature about it is like Michael Keaton was kind of dead in the water from 84 and 87, had clean and sober and beetle juice, and was able to resuscitate himself enough to get this part. But with Tim Burton, he's kind of between generations, and I think it hurts him, how people talk historically.

he's not part of the kind of the Fincher Paul Thomas Anderson that generation that comes up but he's also not part of the Scorsese what was his generation? Who else were who else was in that? The up and coming guys from like the mid-80s because we didn't really I don't think

of that as a generation but there must have been other people. He's not unlike some guys who became icons of sort of more of the indie movies seen like Jim Jarmish because they came out of art school and I think he would have been you know, there's another track for him

where he just kind of makes these smaller David Lynchian weird movies and he just sort of hit right at the point where there seemed to be this openness to like trying different people with these bigger budget movies. And then he winds up making pee-wee beetle juice and Batman and then

he basically writes his own check from there on now. Yeah, but I feel like he's like, he's still really a Hollywood craftsman, you know, like he's from L.A., went to Caltech or Cal Arts rather. And he feels more like, um, even though he does have that artist soul that Chris is talking about. You know,

Robert Zemeckis and Richard Donner and even John Carpenter to some extent. And even John Hughes, you know, like those figures, those big 1980s kind of tent pole figures that were really into mainstream movie going. You know what I mean?

Like the idea that like everyone should come out and see the story and there's something deeply relatable about everything, even in the weirdest stories. Peewee's Big Adventure is such a cracked debut. view. It's such a strange movie. And yet, everybody that I knew growing up, we were like, Pee's the greatest. He's the coolest. Like, the fact that he was able to communicate that to people and make these outsider figures so accessible is really rare. And, you know, John Hughes, like, it's kind

in the spirit of his work, too. You know, like, he's most interested in the losers in his stories, unless they're Ferris Bueller. So it is a kind of director that we don't see as much anymore because of, in part, what Burton introduces here, I think, which is this, like mainstreamification of intellectual property, which overtook the ability to tell weird personal stories in movies. But I guess that's like the paradox of his success. And the crazy thing is, is that, and this is no disrespect to anybody who winds up directing comic book movies now or superhero movies now. But Burton was like, I don't really read comic books. You know, I'm pretty into this, but like with a reasonable amount of distance, like, and a grain of salt. Whereas now,

I think you have to be kind of like, it's been my dream in life to make a Batman movie. and I've been waiting my whole, this whole, all these years. Well, for some people, it kind of probably became a dream of life. But I wonder whether or not it was like if more filmmakers had like a little bit of a healthier cynicism about the enterprise. Like, you know, you might get different kinds of movies if it wasn't like, I need to make sure I honor Harvey Dent, you know, and what that character means. Yeah, I think I like Sean's point about the pop culture generation where it's like Zemeckis,

Hughes, Burton, Richard Donner. I'd throw in why am I blanking and the guy I directed the big chill Lawrence Cazden Yeah These people who

When are we doing When are we doing Lawrence Cazden month? Oh my I'm so I'm so ready Silverado Silverado

Sean Really Sean's gonna do a solo Grand Canyon pod Now out on Grand Canyon That is a tough movie Yeah These

These filmmakers Who actually Really wanted to make movies that a lot of people saw, which I think Burton probably shifts from that a little bit. I don't think he was making Ed Wood and going, this thing's going to be a phenomenon. But in general, that was the 80s mentality of big, big, big, make as much money as possible, get as many people as you possibly can. He said, he saw Batman, the whole film and mythology of the character is a complete duel of the freaks. It's a fight.

between two disturbed people. That's why he wanted to make it. We should mention produced by John Peters and Peter Goober. Strise sand. This is, a lot of the research is just John Peters in rare form. Do you want to do 10 minutes on how this movie leads to Warriors' death lineup? It might have. Peters is going all in.

making money left and right. He's figuring out as many corporate tie-ins as he possibly can. He's shoe hoarding in Prince and Prince songs and a Prince soundtrack. He's building a cathedral at the end of the movie that Tim Burton doesn't even know about, and he's spending $100,000 on that. He's just dropping the Batmobile. Again, this is the end of the 80s. This is a fitting farewell. Anton First for Art Direction wins. Bob Ringwood for costume design. Sean, I don't know you want to give you some Bob Ringwood thoughts? I don't have a lot of deep text on him, but he didn't get nominated, did he? No, he did that.

Which is kind of crazy because he freaking designed the bat suit. Yeah. That's amazing. That bat suit is awesome. Probably should have went. Danny Elfman for the score. Prince Songs. Written by Sam, Sam Ham, who then writer strike had to bow out, and then they had

people kind of changing the script. And I think he probably had a near strip. Also written by Nicholson and Peters after a couple of nights out in London. 48 million dollar budget it made a cool 411.6 million fastest film to 100 million our guy Raj two stars

wow rare L I don't know I'm going to read you some Raj experts excerpts from a Roger Ebers review the Gotham City created in Batman is one of the most distinctive and atmospheric places I've seen in the movies it's a shame something more memorable doesn't happen there Nicholson's Joker is really the most important character in the movie

in Impact and Screen Time and Keaton's Batman and Bruce Wayne characters are so monoslobic and impenetrable that we have to remind ourselves to cheer for them. This is a hostile, mean-spirited movie about ugly, evil people and it doesn't generate the liberating euphoria of the Superman-Rinded Jones pictures. It's classified PG-13, but it's not for kids. I wonder what he would have said about the Batman. You know?

Raj really should have, that felt like a one and a half stars. I think he just probably bumped it to two because he liked the look of the movie, but he did not like, he didn't like the second one either. I mean, I think he missed the point. You know, the point is the design and the psychology of the characters. And also, nothing memorable happening. I would argue that a nighttime bicentennial parade in which gigantic balloons poison an entire city is pretty memorable.

Just my take. Raj is a plot guy as we talked to. about many times. He does love story. He loves story. Kind of comes and goes in this one. All right. Most rewatchable scene.

First scene in the introduction, I'm Batman. Don't kill me, man. I'm not going to kill you. I want you to do me a favor. I want you to tell all your friends about me. What are you? I'm Batman.

Good stuff. Good one. Good stuff. Enjoyed it. Keaton wrote that line, right? That's what they say. Yeah. Knox and Vicky going to Bruce Wayne's office.

Nice talking with. you, Wayne? You know why they're so odd? Because they can afford to be. I mean, look at this mirror. Maybe it should be Bruce Vane. Solid. Batman Foyles Joker in the gang the first time. Good stuff. Some disappears, comes back, falling into the vat, all that stuff. We meet the Joker? Yeah. What do they get a load of me?

wait till they get a load of me that became the famous line from this movie you don't you think the most famous line is never never mess with another man's rhubarb never rub another man's rubber I know what my most famous line is we'll get to that scene I imagine

we see the Batmobile for the first time that whole scene Vicki's taking pictures Batman's beating everyone up just great stuff driving into the Batcave I think it's my favorite part of the movie. It's so fucking weird. Vicky thinks she's being taken to just be murdered

and just the way they filmed that with the 1989 things they had on hand. Pretty impressive. It's a really, really cool scene how they do it and going through the cave of all that stuff. The flashback reveal that the Joker killed Bruce's parents is really well done.

What else do you guys have? I got a couple of things here. I really like, this time, around especially. I really liked the newscasts and the the the smilex ad love that joker. Yeah. I thought that was really cool. I mean, I would also say, yeah, I mean, just the- The parade and the gas. The parade is pretty amazing. It's like a pretty incredible sequence. It's also completely batch it, but like I really, really like how much they're going for it. And in a lot of ways, the movie kind of climax is there, which when you know that they kind of added

on the cathedral scene makes sense, you know? Yeah, I feel like the three big scenes with Vicky and the Joker, you know, the sort of the date when he arrives at the museum, yeah, at the museum, and then the sort of showdown between Bruce and the Joker with Vicky, you know, you want to get nuts, let's get nuts. And then the bell tower. The bell tower is like, when I saw this movie and the way that this movie ended, like the incredibly violent and weird Joker fall and then smashed into the ground.

and then the laughing machine inside of him. I was traumatized by that. I was like, this is tremendously upsetting. And they shouldn't have taken me to see this movie. Yeah. Your parents should listen to Roger Ebert. Well, I mean, they did on many occasions, but unfortunately they didn't on that one.

I didn't have the guts to put the Bell Tower scene in most rewatchable. It's really long. It's inexplicable. I don't know why they're in a cathedral. I don't know why it's so big. Why do we have a 38th story cathedral? And I still don't understand how Nicholson goes over, but somehow not only doesn't fall to his death, but is able to just immediately grab them and flip them. The whole thing is like the geometry of it makes no sense.

That was my huge picking net. It's like when he grabs their legs and pulls them over, it's very strange. Like how do you just not fall to his death? All of that is pretty weird. I would say most rewatchable scene for me is probably driving into the back cave. Yeah. What do you have, Sean? I love the party man scene.

They're coming in and he's dancing and defacing all the art. I just think is like amazing. Burned into my memory. What's age the best? Keaton decided to do Batman's voice at a lower level than Bruce Wayne. Really smart. Everyone stole from that. I just wrote down Kim Basinger is fucking hot.

I just wrote that one down in my notes. It's a great looking lady. quite a specimen. Great job by her. Can't really speak about her acting as much, but she's really attractive. She's an Oscar award winner. I get it.

The whole framing of Vicky Vale is really weird in this movie. Yeah, I have that in What Stage is the worst. Okay. What's age the best? Jack Torrent says The Joker. Love it. Probably my favorite thing about this movie.

I love the Batcave. And then just this for What Stage the Best? During production, Peters read in the Wall Street Journal that comic book fans were upset with the Keaton casting. So he rushed a film trailer that played in every theater basically during Christmas. You can still see it on YouTube. Yeah, it's on YouTube. And it's a whole bunch of scenes. And I remember seeing this.

I think I was seeing Die Hard because wasn't it the previous Christmas? They was 88 when this came out. I want to say I diehard and they showed this and everybody was like, holy shit. that looks fucking amazing. Yeah. But that was just really smart. For what stage the best? Just the nickel's saying in what this,

the exclamation point of, you know, from a pop culture standpoint in his career, I would have as well. What else do you guys have for what stage the best? Anything? I mean, making a movie about Batman? There's been a lot of them since this one. So that was pretty smart.

I mean, I think Tim Burton, too, taking a chance on him at this stage was smart. Yeah, I would say Nicholson and I would say the relative lack of angst in this movie compared to the Batman movies that would come after it. And how even though Bruce Wayne is like my parents and I'm trying to figure out who I am and the duality of my character, it's so much less weighed down than the Batman characters that would come in the Nolan movies, in the Snyder movies and in the Reeves movie. I had Bruce's office too when they, Vicky Vail and

Robert Wohl's character He's got into his office He's got all the weird things Getting into armor Should I? Do you not have a chivalric display room In one of your homes? You don't have like a giant

A room full of like warrior New house I'm going to work on it What's age the worst Special effects? Some of those stuff is bad Like when he's flying in the bat plane it really feels like 1989. There's a couple...

Oh my God, we're in 1989 moments with some of this stuff. I think the movie's actually too dark. I get that it has to be dark, but it's actually hard to see... Yeah, okay. Yeah. It's actually literally hard to see certain things.

Wait till you see the Batman. That's right. It's fucking dark. The Keaton and Bassinger scenes are pretty rough. You think so? Yeah, I don't love it. but you guys disagree? I think they have some chemistry.

Yeah. Sean? I just think they do a good job of communicating that the Joker is a psycho and that he's like really crude and want is like it seems like he just wants the jumper bones, you know, whether they're like clicking

with the chemistry of a thousand burning suns. You mean Nicholson and Basinger or Keaton? Keaton. Oh, Keaton and Basinger. Oh, uh, it's okay. I mean, like to Chris's point about the Batman in future iterations. Keaton's Batman is not psychological. He's not traumatized.

He's just a weird guy. And so, and like, obviously that's kind of Keaton's stock and trade for a long time is he has this kind of off-kilter delivery. And he's funny, but he's a little bit awkward, but he's somehow really charismatic. It's a really, it's part of what makes an inspired choice. But when you're seeing him have like a burgeoning romance with a woman, you're like, why does she like him aside from the fact that he's a billionaire?

Like, he's an odd dude. You know, the dinner scene when they're at the long table together. He's like, I don't know if I've ever been in this room. And she laughs. And it's like, if someone had said that to you at dinner, you'd be like, are you crazy? Right. The whole movie is a little bit unnerving, I would say. Well, he basically has a tech billionaire, like the modern tech billionaire's personality, right?

He's basically Mark Zuckerberg, but we don't know. He looks like Steve Jobs. He has the black turtleneck. Yeah. The glasses, you know, the reason I mentioned the chemistry is because in bad, in the second Batman, him and Michelle Pfeiffer have an unbelievable chemistry. Yeah, they do. So he has it in there. He has it in him.

I just, I felt like he didn't click. The crazy buzz from the Keaton casting is aged the worst just because it's hard to explain to people what a big deal this was, that they cast Michael Keaton as Batman, how weird that was for people, that it was the guy from Night Shift and

gung-ho was suddenly going to be Batman. And they cast them off of clean and sober. Yeah, but it got a lot of press publicity attention. for the movie. Like Michael Keaton's Batman. It is, I was reading a little bit about the reaction it got and there was something about like all the letters that

there was like 50,000 letters decrying his casting and they were talking about like, do you have to imagine what it was like in 1988 or whatever, whenever somebody found out about this to be like, I'm so upset about the casting of a movie that I will write a letter. It's not like

I'm just going to fire off a tweet that's like, R. Pat's Loll don't like it. It's like, you actually have to be like, Dear John Peters. Right. I kind of liked it more back then. You had to put more effort at the hating on somebody.

I mean, can you imagine now in the Twitter? Jesus. The Prince soundtrack is, I think, age the worst. In relation to it being part of Batman or just the songs in general? I don't think the Prince fans are like, what do you listen to today? The Batman soundtrack.

I think that's a fair point. I do really like the song. that feature prominently in the movie. Yeah, trust and party man are dope. And party man are really good print songs, in my opinion. Newspapers, the importance of the Gotham Globe has age the worst, because, you know, newspapers have now gone digital? Just newspapers?

Yeah, newspapers. What do you think, do you think that the athletic would have come in and kind of like, the Gotham group? Yeah. Hired the best three Gotham guys. That does raise, like, an interesting question about the movie, which is, it seems like it is simultaneously set in 1989 and 1948. Yeah. And I

can't really like everyone is dressed in a suit and a trench coat at all times. I don't know what city or year we're in. This is always the thing with Gotham though where it's like this is Chicago, Pittsburgh, Los Angeles, New York and London all at once. Isn't Gotham supposed to, I feel like in the comic post Gotham is

like between New York and New Jersey somehow? It's neither of those. Anyway. Keaton's hair is age the worst. It's right in like when he's in that regeneration stage. But there's a couple where it just looks like he's wearing a wig a couple times.

I don't know what's going on that. He needed the TB12 method. They had to get Guerrero on the set. Alex Guerrero is out. Stretch him out, man. Let's go. Have a smoothie. Here's what Tim Burton said about the print songs.

It was completely lost me. It tainted something that I didn't want to taint, which is how you feel about an artist. And actually, I liked his album. I wish I could listen to it without the feel of what had happened. He was traumatized that they crammed the print songs into the actual movie.

That's so funny. I don't feel like they don't stick out that much. I feel like it's kind of... The Joker kind of needs, like, theme songs. You know, he's such a ridiculous character. I don't... That's interesting. Some of the casting,

Billy D. Williams and Harvey Dent. Well, this is controversial because they kind of screwed our guy, Billy, down the road a little bit. he's so wasted yeah Morgan Freeman was right there is my

that's all I'm gonna say Morgan Freeman was right there to be Harvey Dent he would have been great they could have brought him back for the next one but would Morgan Freeman have been a good two-face

though I feel like he wouldn't I feel like Billy D would have been a good two-face because he seems a little nuts does he I don't was Billy D Williams a good actor

or what am I missing Lando what? Come on Lando betraying Han he was likable, but was he actually like a high-level actor? He's not as good an actor as Morgan Freeman.

Morgan Freeman has two faces. That's a stretch. I'm not sure I see that. Morgan Freeman was a pimp and street smart the same year. That's true. I think he could have done it. The whole thing is like Billy D signed up for this movie thinking there would be a bigger part down the road, right? They boned them over.

And then they boned and they got Tommy Lee in there. I mean, Billy D. Williams was really famous, I guess, in the way that it is. All right. I recant. Tommy Lee. I don't care. I don't care. Pat Hingle is Commissioner Gordon.

I would do that one over again. William Hukens is the lieutenant. I don't know where the fact. I don't know where the fuck that guy came from. Oh, he's great. That's the chubby fighter pilot from Star Wars. He's great. But the worst one, Robert Wool as Knox.

This movie has so much Robert Will. I have that as in like just a what's age to worst with seven asteris exclamation point, bold italics. I can't believe he's in this movie. Lay it out for us. Like, how did this, how did Robert Wohl get to be Robert Wohl?

Bull Durham. He's good. He's a comedian, right? Like, he's a stand-up comedian. Bold Durham, he's good. Good Robert Woll part. I think we were good at that point with Robert Woll.

I don't think we needed him and anything else at that point. He should have jumped off a building? What do you mean we were good with him? Maybe just do some local plays in like Tampa. Instead, he's in Batman, and he's in too much of Batman. He's in a lot of Batman. He's in so many scenes, and it's like, God.

It's unfortunate. It's really the most unfortunate part of the movie. I was thinking, like, even if, like, you had Robin Williams as Knox. Now, Rob Williams is a giant star, probably wouldn't have taken it because it was a lower role. But, like, just overshoot with the Knox part, because he's actually in, like, eight, nine scenes. Get somebody off. Awesome. Daniel DeLewis?

Well, I had this for recasting couch, but just Phil Hartman. Just give me Phil Hartman. Yeah, right there. He's been an S&L three years. Bill, this is why you're the best, man. What about Robert Redford, though? Only if he does. Casting what ifs.

Actually, let's take a break because there's some good casting what ifs. Snoring, gasping during sleep, feeling fatigue, ask your doctor about Zepbound, terse appetite. The first and only FDA-approved prescription medicine for moderate to severe obstructive sleep apnea, OSA, and adults with obesity. Zepbound is a prescription medicine used with a reduced calorie diet and increased physical activity to help adults with moderate to severe obstructive sleep apnea, OSA, and obesity to improve their OSA. Zetbound is approved as a 2.5, 5, 7.5, 10, 12.5, or 15 milligram injection. Zetbound contains terseptitite and should not be used with a good. other terseptite-containing products or any GLP-1 receptor agonist medicines. It is not known if Zepbound

is safe and effective for use in children. Don't share needles or pins or reuse needles. Don't take if allergic to it, or if you or someone in your family had medullary thyroid cancer, or if you've had multiple endocrine neoplasia syndrome type 2. Tell your doctor if you get a lump or swelling in your neck. Stop Zepbound and call your doctor if you have severe stomach pain or a serious allergic reaction. Severe side effects may include inflamed pancreas or gallbladder problems. Tell your if you experience vision changes before scheduled procedures with anesthesia. If you're nursing, pregnant, plan to be, or taking birth control pills. Taking Zepound with a sulfonel urea or insulin may cause low blood sugar.

Side effects include nausea, diarrhea, and vomiting, which can cause dehydration and worsened kidney problems. Talk to your doctor. Call 1-800-545-99 or visit Zepbound.lily.com. Are casting what-ifs? I would say this movie had as many casting what-ifs as any movie we've done. This is the 226th edition. It's up there with Godfather, for sure. I don't even, I mean,

every star was considered for Batman basically from the 80s. Mel Gibson, Kevin Koster, Charlie Sheen, Tom Seleck, Bill Murray, Harrison Ford, Dennis and Craig. I don't even know what's real and not real. It sounds like Pierce Brosnan was the guy who caught Burton's eye

and they at least met about it. And Brosnan was like, I'm not playing a fucking super... So the Brosden one, yeah, there seems like multiple reports that they at least made. he didn't want to be a comic book guy. A bunch of people were excited about Bill Murray as Batman in the early 80s during the iterations of that, which really would have been weird.

And that was Ivan Reitman was going to direct, right? No way. I'm so glad that didn't happen. Peters was saying in the premiere magazine that I read from 89 that that was who he was excited about for years was Bill Murray. I love Bill Murray, and I love Bill Murray and I love Bill Murray and Ivan Wrightman together, and I would have not enjoyed that. And then there was like Eddie Murphy was going to be Robin.

That's where I don't believe stuff where you're just like, all right, this is. It's funny. Oh, I'm so glad I thought of this. I saw Damon Wayans in where I live because he was eating with a friend of mine. So I'd met him and I talked to him. And I was like, hey, this is going to be weird. But we just did this podcast, We watchedibles. And we just did this, the last Boy Scout.

Was Damon Wayans like, I love fucked up family February? He was like, he was like, Rachel getting married was awesome. I was like, oh, you heard it. But I was like, so we did the last Boy Scout. And in the research, it was about, there's a lot of stuff about how you and Bruce Willis hated each other. And he's like, not true. Like made a face was like, not true at all. We loved each other.

I had barely done anything. And Bruce was like my hero. Like all, he was my mentor of the whole movie. ends. I don't know where that came from or why that is out there. But I love Bruce Willis. So that's why we call this half-fast internet research. And when we do casting with ifs, we never know if the stuff's true or not because he was adamant. I love Bruce Willis. Which makes sense because Bruce Willis seems like a fun guy, especially back there. That's incredible. Damon Williams was like, that's fake news. You need to delete that pod.

Was he like, I'll listen to the pod. I'll check that out. No, he said he was going to listen to Rachel getting married, though. Jack Nicholson was the studio's top choice for the Joker since 1980. He was just in every thing. There's some Willem Defoe buzz. William Defoe said in 2009, he was in talks for the Joker than Nicholson did it. Then there's all the stuff about Robin Williams. This is really interesting though.

So like they, like go ahead and do it. But I thought this was one of the more compelling like 80s fucking Game of Thrones backstage magic things going on. It was really kind of quite a story. So I think this is real that they couldn't get Nicholson to commit. They offered Robin Williams the role and they might have offered it because this was

their way to lock Nicholson in. If they're we're going to do with Rob Williams, we're going to do it. He's going to. So anyway, Williams took it. Then Nicholson was like, all right, fine, I'll do it. They released Williams from his contract and Williams was pissed and refused to do any

Warner Brother movies. And, refused to play the Ridler and Batman forever until he got some apology. The apology part is where it gets weird because I think this is Hollywood. But I do think there's probably some truth to that. What do you think of that, Sean? It's really interesting because it's a great sliding doors moment. So you already mentioned that the biggest movie of the year was Batman. The number two movie was Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade. Like you mentioned, the third biggest movie of the year in America was Dead Poets Society. First of all, just take a quick second. Dead Poet Society was the third biggest movie of 1989. That's pretty wild. And that movie was released, I believe, two weeks before Batman. And so,

you know, who is the star of Dead Poets Society if Robin Williams is the Joker? What is that movie? You know what that made me think of? Neal! My son! Neal! Imagine Jack Nicholson in Dead Poets Society, but Robin Williams in Batman saying, he stole my balloons! Is that your favorite line in this movie? That's by far my favorite line in the movie. Love that line. But that'd be weird. Both movies are worse, but I'm here for Jack Nicholson and Dead Poets Society as Mr. Keating.

I think would have been crazy. So anyway. Tear out the front page of your books. If you want to be in the play, be in the play. So Nicholson, this is my favorite. This is where the pod really just pays off. Sometimes you find nuggets and you're just like, this is just the fucking best.

Nicholson's like, I'll do the Joker. I have some conditions. I get top billing in the poster. Fuck the guys playing Batman. I'm on the top. I'm going to get some of the earnings of the movie, including the merchandise. You're going to give me some of that.

We'll figure that out. I'm going to have an off-the-clock shooting schedule agreement. You're going to tell me how many hours I have to work each day. I am not working any Laker home game. If there's a Laker home game playoff game, I'm off that day, and you'll fly me back and forth. And he reduced his fee from 11 to 6,

but again, it might have made $90 million. But most importantly, never missed a Laker playoff game as this was being filmed. This is actually exactly the deal that CR now negotiates before every watchables

as the sixers prepare to run to the playoffs. It's really exciting. He's like, I get to go to every Sixers playoff game. All of the Liverpool, if we're in Champions League, I'm off that day. So, yeah, so Nicholson. Rich is awaiting your response, Bill. We haven't gotten one yet. Chris is due agent, Chris, Rich Paul.

Clutch CR. Martin Landau turned down Carl Grissom. Oh. Four crimes and misdemeanors. The sliding doors are flying back and forth. fourth year. Do you think Jack Palance was up for crimes and misdemeanors if Landau had gone? That would have been bad. Curley? The Sean Young stuff. So cast as Vicky Vale, horse riding action,

and Berker Cobbro and Kim Basinger stepped in. But then Bob Wilkins, I'm going to call him Bob Will from now on. Bob Wilkins in a hollered reporter piece for like the 30th anniversary. It was like, no, no, that's not actually what happened. She sabotaged. They rewrote the script. she sabotaged her readthrough, did monotone, and they wanted to get her the F out, and that's why Kim Basinger, Kittman. Who knows? She basically, like, they wrote,

there was less, like, she had less lines in this new draft, and as they were doing a readthrough in front of, like, all the Warner's Brass and Peters, Sean Young basically tanks the readthrough. I don't know if I believe this. This is Bob Wool, you know? Also, Vicki Veils in, like, a ton of the movie. So it just doesn't add up.

Well, it also sounds like, In addition to everything else, Basinger was also writing scenes for herself during the movie. Well, there's also this famous story about Sean Young after she didn't get this part. She does this insane audition for a Catwoman in 91 for Batman Returns, where she like dresses up in the whole costume and tries to convince Tim Burton to do it. And they're like, we're all set here, thanks. And then cut to Ace Ventura Pet Detective. And that's where Sean Young's career goes.

So, you know, it's a tough beat for Sean Young. Also written out of Wall Street, right? She was going to be a way. bigger part of Wall Street. Listen, she still has no way out, which is a fucking classic. Bob Wohl also says Peters wanted Michelle Fifer

for that part, and Keat blocked it because they had dated before. Bob Will says, quote, at the time Michael told me he was trying to get back with his ex-wife, Keaton was firmly, and underlined firmly against that casting of Fifer, and he and Peters got into it. All sounds great, but then she's

in the second Batman, so who knows? I don't know if Bob Will might not be a reliable narrator. And then my favorite casting would have Adam West, who played the original Batman, was really disappointed that he wasn't asked to reprise the role and was out there publicly, like,

being like, I got boned over. And he wouldn't agree. People were like, we're good, Adam. Adam West, we're good. Poor guy. We're good. You not get boned over. Bill, I'm going to try to confirm all this stuff as I start on the 100 episode re-arless that I've been taping with Robert Wool. which is where we go back.

Every episode is about two and a half hours, but we rewatch each episode and talk about, you know, just how sports agents have changed and how the world of sports is still so crazy. And these athletes, their demands are out of this world.

You can't believe it. The R-R-Lis. So tune in, Ringer podcast Network. Very proud of that show. Thanks to that. The Rearless is the soundtrack to hell. I share Clipper season tickets with my buddy,

Mike Tolan, who is one of the creators of Arlis, and I've been making fun of him about Arlis for the entire time we've had, we've been friends. I'm sure he's like, that's why I have fucking Clippers season tickets. Yeah, yeah. He's like, keep the jokes coming. We got seven years. But then Bill can say I have Clippers tickets because I made fun of Arlese. It's a beautiful synchronicity. It's all circles around. Best that guy, aka the Joey Pantsillard. This is a clear winner. Bob de Goon, a. Tracy Walter. Oh, yeah. Nicholson, like, negotiated to have him in the cast. I think he's great.

This is buddy from like the 70s. And he's, like when they made going south. Got an iconic role in Repo Man, which is my favorite Tracy Walter performance. But I have to say, not a very intimidating gangster, but I will get to this in picking nits. Yeah, they grew his hair out to make him seem scarier, I guess. But I just love that Jack had so much juice. This was one of the 19 things he negotiated. It was like, and Tracy Walter has to be Bob the Goon.

I wonder what they said no to. You know, what did they say no to for Nicholson? If they were like, yeah, Tracy Walter could have the sixth biggest part in Batman. Yeah, it is the sixth biggest part. I know. Sean's like, I'll do the ringer, but CR has to come. C.R. has to be with me. You are my number one guy.

The Vincent Hanna, give me all he got a word. I mean, Nicholson has moments. The Prince song is a Vincent Hanna candidate. But Keaton, Craig's going to play the clip because I'm going to mail it to him. But Keaton, when he flips out, when the showdown with the Joker, now you want to get nuts! Come on, let's get nuts! That's so much, like, crazier than he actually does it.

Then he had us. Let's get nuts. I think I wanted to say that also, So Palance is death in this movie, like his dying from getting shot. Where he's like, no! It's like, that's how they, like, when they make fun of like bang, bang, you're dead and guys do the dramatic rolling around. Like, that's Palance is the platonic ideal for that. Pallace is bad in this movie.

He's indescribable in Tango and Cash and somehow parlays both of it into an Oscar for City Slickers, which he never should have won. Incredible amount of palance on the rewatchables lately. Yeah. I don't think I saw this coming. It's a palance sense. Deanne Waiters Award. It's fun to see Jerry Hall. Wow.

Interesting. Look great. I always thought she was underrated. You know, there's a lot of love for Michael Goff as Alfred. He's one of the only constants of the four Batman movies as they changed Batman's twice. Let's give them. That's a good one. He's really good.

recasting couch. Literally any other actor than Robert Will. We already have Daniel Day Lewis as Knox. Who did I say for Robert Will? Oh, Phil Hartman. And then Morgan Freeman is Two-Face. Or is Harvey Dent. Half As Ernst Research.

The Batman suit costs 250K. The 38-foot cathedral cost 100K. It was shot in England at the Pinewood Studios because they didn't want any photos. Nicholson is the Joker. A lot of secrecy back then. I know Sean has some thoughts about the Pinewood Studios, one of your favorites. An incredibly legendary place.

A lot of Star Wars shot there. Tons of great movie shot there. Didn't they shoot full middle jacket there when they were like, yep, this is Vietnam? Yep. There's some fun Pallant stuff. Apparently had a hearing problem. Burton cut one of his takes because Pallets didn't show up on Q. And then they kind of got into it and Pallants got mad at.

because I think he didn't realize Tim Burton didn't realize he couldn't hear and he said I've made more than a hundred films how many of you made and Burton said years later it was a blackout experience he'd never forget and he was scarred by it

Jack Palinth seems like a good hang Jack Pallens Chris you'll appreciate this it took two hours for the makeup artist to change Nicholson and the Joker you know how I love tales of long makeup chair Stints.

Michael Keaton claims they tape basketball games for Nicholson to watch. This is pre-league pass. Yeah. So they'd actually have VHS basketball games that he would watch as the makeup was happening. Number of Dead bodies in this movie, 56. Oh, that's a lot. Lightwork. Apex Mountain Michael Keaton?

Can I do one more half-ass internet research? Yeah. When Peters, I think, or Goober took Burton to go meet Nicholson. they were doing something like in Aspen together so they went to Aspen and they were going to go ride horses

and Burton says I don't ride horses and Grumper's like you do today so they went horseback riding with Nicholson to convince him that Burton was the right guy Oh my God

Apex Mountain Michael Keaton Hmm gotta be right this is the kind of the biggest movie of all time when it came out yeah it's the I don't know why I'm stuttering over this

yeah I'm gonna say yes because the definition of Apex Mountain which we people still are confused by 226 movies later it's the people who are confused what did Damon Wayan say about it

was he like I love what you're doing with Apex Mountain beautiful stuff he's confused he was like I was listening I was listening to Proof of Life for the third time me and Helen Mirren were actually hanging out

I think yes, because it's supposed to be when you had the most juice and the whole thing. Keaton gets enough juice from this that he makes Pacific Heights where he plays an evil tenant, a movie that makes no sense even as I'm describing it. And they were able to make it because Michael Keaton was the evil tenant. So I'm going to say he had the most juice food here. That movie fucking rules, though. I love that movie. You say the word, CR.

Say the word. Add it to the schedule. still not sure what they were doing in that apartment. Kim Basinger, you could argue, yes. I mean, she's about to meet Alck Baldwin and have a high-profile celebrity romance, and this movie was a big deal, and coming off a bunch of stuff. I don't know. Could also say L.A. Confidential.

I feel like it's L.A. Confidential. Yeah. I mean, I don't know if she had, like, a ton of juice at that time, necessarily, but she did win the Oscar. She didn't really work after that, though. I mean, it was a long time after LA Confidential. She was like played Eminem's mom in A-mile, like five years later. Nicholson, no.

We don't have to figure out what his apex mountain was, but it's not this. Peters and Goober has a combo. I would say yes. So pretty soon after this, they take over Sony and it all falls apart. But they partly because Batman had enough juice. to kind of even do that in the first place. So I would say yes. Bob will, absolutely.

Well, to be confirmed during the R-R-Lis. I'll get a fair to the R-Lis will be his apex. What's Tim Burton's Apex Mountain, Sean? I think it's probably this, but he also, because I mean, he uses this to make Edward Tissorhands, and then he uses Batman returns to make Ed Wood. I would say it's Batman. Man Returns, because that's a better movie,

and he had more of a stranglehold on that movie, made the movie he wanted to make. I think that movie's really good. It is really good. It's tough to choose between the two because this movie set the iconography for so much, but Two is Returns is, because Returns has insane great performances across the board.

There's no weird bad Jack Palin's performance in the middle of the movie. It's like everybody is on the same page. Batman movies? No. Dark Night. Dark night. Agree. Picky Knits.

We'll take one more break and then we'll do pick a nits. This episode is brought to you by Two Good and Company Coffee Creamers. Howdy take your coffee? Piping hot, ice, strong, frothy. But if you love rich, creamy goodness and delicious flavor in every sip, try Two Good Encompanied Creamers. They're made with farm-fresh cream and real milk. Each serving has just three grams of sugar,

40% less than the leading coffee cream. Two good creamers are available in sweet cream, roasted vanilla, and lavender. So which one are you trying first? Find two good creamers at your local retailer in the creamer aisle. Picky Knits. This is like a legendaryly famous picket knit. Vicky waltzes into the Batcave, finds out Bruce's Batman. There's no reveal.

There's no surprise. The movie is leading toward this payoff, and then they have no payoff. it's the fucking weirdest thing ever. Tim Burton even in 1992, he said, quote, obviously that was one thing I got killed for. It was rough. And then tried to explain it.

And basically it was like, I can be a little belligerent. I think they were giving him notes and he got mad. I was like, fuck this. I'm doing it my way. He said, quote, my impulse was, I said to myself, fuck this bullshit.

This is comic book material. I thought, you know, who really cares? But it was a mistake. It went too far. I would say so. It's just bizarre that they don't pay this off. Yeah, because she sees him and then she's just like,

I thought we had chemistry, right? Is that the scene you're talking about where she, Alfred brings her in? She just kind of was like, oh yeah, you're Batman? Yeah. It's so confusing. You didn't even really fully know how to describe it. It's just a tremendously strange choice to reveal,

like to have Batman reveal his identity in the first movie. You know, like this is something that like in other movies they wait over time or some characters never even find out. It's just a very odd choice. Tobacle. I always kind of trip over this whole part of the Batman character where people are like, God, who is Batman? It's just such a mystery.

It's just like as the same jawline, same eyes usually. I had that as my second nitpick, Chris. It's all these superhuman, the Batman and Superman movies hinge on this inability of anybody to recognize that this guy without the mask is the guy with the mask. Keaton, it's just so clear. Well, it's like, with Superman is the worst, because it's just like, he just puts glasses on and people like, look at this fucking dork.

Right. The cathedral, I don't know where it comes from. I don't know why they end up there. It comes from Peters and Nicholson going to see Phantom of the Opera and being like, we need to rewrite the end of Batman to pay homage to Phantom of the Opera. That's what happened. Yeah. It feels like a little bit of vertigo in there, too.

Vicki Vale says she only weighs 108 pounds. Kim Basker is like 5'10. Well, they make fun of it later on, right? They make the joke about it. 100, 8, I don't know. I would have gone with 115. It still would have been funny. The comic book fans...

Tough beat. Comic book fans were pissed about the Joker murdering Bruce Wayne's parents because in the comic book, Joe Chill was the one who murdered the parents. They were very upset about this. Well, they also give him an identity, Jack Napier,

done previous to this. He's supposed to be somebody you've never, he has no identity. And in Dark Night, he was like always changing his origin story. He's like, that's the cool thing about it is he just pretends like he keeps, he keeps changing, like, where he came from. They were also really pissed off that Alfred let Vicky into the back cave. They thought that was a complete betrayal of the comic. Brocode. Yeah. Have fans always been fucking awful? Like, what's the deal with this? Where people are like, Chris made a great joke about this with the new Batman movie, then hashtag Not My Batman,

which is not actually something that's happening. But the constant frustration with things that people hold so dear is it really interesting that this one probably kicked it off in a big, big way, right? Like fan outrage over something they'd never seen. And then when they got it, they were like, this movie's sick. We had to deal with that with fucked up family February. That's right. Fans were like, this isn't what I signed up for.

You were getting letters? Die Hard. Where's Die Hard 2? You promised. Well, what do you, how do you respond to those letters, that concern? Now is the chance, Bill, to speak to all of the frustrated listeners of the rewatchables. We're going to have some awesome movies coming up. I love fucked up family February. I had a great time.

I don't really care what other people thought. Me too. We got to talk about premature ejaculation and key parties. Because those things never come up when we talk about Die Hard. Any other nipicks for any... Are we sure Hans Gruber wasn't a one-pump and done guy? Isn't that why?

Maybe he was so frustrated and he did you take over Nakatomi? Eight seconds, Hans. Wait, is this picking nits? Any more? Yeah, I have one. How about the fact that no one in the world would be intimidated

by the Joker's gang? Great. So these guys have the city in a fucking headlock. But when you look at them, it's like the iron sheik with a boombox and a 5'7 guy who's like wearing a purple bomber jacket.

And they're like, the Joker is just overrun us. We can't come up with any solutions. I told Chris yesterday that they looked like bouncers at Planet Hollywood. Like these guys are such clowns. What's going on? And a lot of it seems to be like

wrapped up in the Joker's control of a chemical plant, which, you know, I mean, I know that this is a comic book movie and everything, but it just seems like they had a lot of stuff brewing in that place. Like, just maybe get a little more security and access chemicals. My other one picking knit is when the smile X gets tainted or whatever, whenever the chemicals get tainted, in within however many days, the newscasters go from like totally normal looking to having like boils on their face because they can no longer use. use beauty products. I was like, look, man. This guy, I don't think this guy would be like falling apart like this. But those are mine.

Could this be your band as a 10-episode Netflix show? I'm sure it has. Well, in the Gotham, I guess. Probably in answerable questions. We already talked about was this Nicholson's secretly most important movie. Sean, do your Dr. J theory for this. Was this movie the Dr. J.

for yeah i think we're now like in the if you discount the ben affleck batman and the zack snider verse which i do no no shots to aflick what i thought was a good batman but he's not really in the pantheon that keaton as batman is is dr jay and that bail as batman and the nolan films is michael jordan and that we're now we're entering a kind of a lebron era with with the reeves films in this movie's a huge hit people pretty pretty uniformly seem to like patents and a lot and each one brings something a little bit different to the table. And the Keaton one is very idiosyncratic. We'd never seen anybody do anything like this before you mentioned the voice.

He kind of invented the low-toned voice for Batman. Bale changes it up a little bit. He's a little bit more of a me, me guy, you know? Reeves and Patinson spreading the ball around. A lot of characters in the new one. You know, more of a playmaking scorer. So, you know, it's like it had to start this way. There had to be like a big inspiration.

Whether or not it's like actually bad for me. movies that this happened, I think is debatable. I know that that's how you kind of open this conversation. You know, Dr. Jay wasn't bad for basketball. Do you think in the fashion of LeBron, Robert Pattinson will demand that Paul Danae get traded for one of his older friends? That's actually the big twist in the Batman, too, is that the penguin is actually his agent and that he's demanding a trade to Metropolis. Wait, who's Vince Carter in this whole about? Aquaman. Yeah. Vince Carter out of all the Batman's.

Who is the most disappointing Batman? Clooney. I think Clooney is saddled with the worst bat movie, but I thought he was actually okay as Batman. I think he could have been good with a better filmmaker, but he's weirdly directed. And Batman and Robin is trash. So Val Kilmer's like Hakeem Ilajuwon.

He won a couple titles, but people kind of discount them for some reason. Sean's like shit. I want to see how far we can go with this. Brought a knife to a gunfight here. Ben Affleck is... Ben Axler? Yeah, I was going to...

Somebody who's been stymie. He's never got to be older. It's got to be this century, though. He's more like Carl Malone, I would say. You know, he never got the check. No, so then Affleck would be... He's in the 2000s. Who's Steph Curry?

Well, Affleck could be Kauai, you know, capable of winning with a bunch of different teams, but injury plagued. I would say there's no LeBron I think Pattinson has a chance to be Curry I feel like the Steph in the new movie is Zoe Kravitz because I'm like where's her movie?

That's the movie I want to see now. We should have workshop this more. I do like the the best part of the analogy is the Dr. Jay as Michael Key. He was doing fine and then you started throw it out like who's Vince Carter? Who's the world be free

in the Batman universe? Adam West Who's Larry Hughes, Sean? Obviously, you haven't given this any thought. Is Arnold Schwarzenegger the Ricky Davis of the Batman films? Adam West is Paul Arisen. Oh, yeah, for sure. Yeah, that's what I was thinking.

Caesar Romero is the George Mikan of the Batman films. Can I just tell you how unbelievable Julie Newmar was as Catwoman watching that show as a kid? Where it was like each one was, my favorite was Burges. as the penguin, especially because the Rocky connection once Rocky became a thing. But anytime it was Catwoman, it's like, oh, my God, this is going to be like the most amazing one ever. But all the villains are really good. You felt like they did a good job all the way around.

So by the time we got to the Joker and Michelle Pfeiffer's Catwoman, there was like real stakes and real history with it. One of the smart things is in that first movie, that 66 movie, all the villains are in it. So, like, if you saw that, you were like, I know who all these characters are for the rest of my life. they're all imprinted on you. And that was good. What piece of memorabilia

would you want from this movie? I mean, clearly has to be the Batmobile. What an amazing thing to have parked outside your house. What else would you have, Chris? I would take the little palm thing that Nicholson has to electrocute guys.

Oh, yeah. Just because I love dapping people up. And whenever I see Sean, I would just give them a little shock, you know, just be like... And murder me? Yeah. I wouldn't shrink your head,

but I would just give you a little jolt. Didn't Jeff Dunham, the ventriloquist puppeteer by the Batmobile? Did he? I think he did. Great purchase. What a great use of money. See, you're a huge Dunham guy.

What do you think about that? That thing's 10-2-Pold. If he bought it, that thing's 10-2-fold. Who won the movie? Ten-to-pult? Nicholson, right? Yeah, either Nicholson or Burton. I would say Burton wins the next one,

because it seems like Burton was so unhappy with so many things about how this movie played out. It's hard to think that he won. movie. It's surprising that they brought him back for the second one because it seems like there was a lot of angst. Yeah, I would say Nicholson. All right, before we go, let's bring producer Craig in. Hello. Who was born well after this movie came out. He was born in the darkness. Craig, what was it like to see this version of a Batman movie after you've seen all the really well done extraordinary Batman movies? Yeah, so I saw the Batman, the Robert Patton's Batman, like 24 hours

before watching this Batman. It was tough. You know, I listen, I don't deny that, like, Jack Nicholson is scene stealing and charismatic, but it just feels like he did every scene in one take and is just, like, not really giving a shit. That was the vibe I got. Like, this movie almost feels like if you showed, like, your son, Bill, and told him that this is, like, a scary movie parody of Batman because of how serious Batman has gotten

and, like, how serious the villains are. I feel like this movie looks like a parody. When like Jack Nichols is like dancing around to Prince and like, you know, destroying the art. I was like this could be a scary movie scene of Batman. I would argue that's not the wrong take. But that's part of what makes it fun, right? Is that it's different. It's not this super.

I like self-serious Batman movies, but it's not self-serious. It's kind of a joke. Yeah. I guess I didn't really know that. I kind of always assumed that Batman was like incredibly serious and dark. Oh, no. And it was just weird to see Jack Nicholson. He was like a pop art kind of thing for for a long time.

So, Craig, you never saw the NBC sitcom about Batman with Jerry Seinfeld before he did Seinfeld? No. In 1936 range? Yeah, no, that happened. It was called... It was called Batman and Robin, but they worked in a coffee shop. No, it didn't happen. I think I could have sold about that, though.

All right, well, that was a good take. All right, Batman in 1989. This podcast was produced by Craig Corlebeck. As always, you can hear Sean on the big picture. You can hear Chris. Also, the re-hour list. Don't forget about the re-ar-lis. Sean, if we iron that out, is that Spotify exclusive?

Are you still working on? Yeah, how are we going to do it? You can actually only hear it on Cyberdust. Every episode will disappear after 24 hours. So check me out there. All right. We'll be back with another big movie next week. Thanks for listening to the rewatch of us.