The Rewatchables - ‘Brokeback Mountain’ With Bill Simmons and Wesley Morris

Episode Date: July 29, 2025

The Ringer’s Bill Simmons and Wesley Morris drive 14 hours from Texas to Wyoming to rewatch Ang Lee’s 2005 masterpiece ‘Brokeback Mountain’ starring Heath Ledger, Jake Gyllenhaal, Michelle Williams, and Anne Hathaway. Producers: Craig Horlbeck, Ronak Nair, and Chris Wohlers Book your next business trip at holidayinn.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

This episode is brought to you by Adobe Firefly, the all-in-one creative studio with AI-powered image and video generation. Built for today's creative process, Firefly helps you generate, edit, and experiment fast, because the asks aren't getting smaller, and the timelines? Ooh, yeah, still tight. With all the best creative AI models in one place, Firefly brings your ideas to life. Learn more at Adobe.com slash Firefly. The rewatchables is brought to by the Ringer podcast Network where you cannot find

Wesley Morris' podcast, Cannonball, which you just launched like six weeks ago. Of course you didn't tell me. I didn't tell anybody. They're really trying to get me to tell people because I am a bad self-promoter. Well, now we're going to know. Many people make this show.

I don't really tell anybody. Now this is promotion because you're on the rewatchables. We're in a brand new studio. I'm very excited about it. I can't believe this. I might not even go back to New York because what the expletive. This is beautiful. I thought about wearing shorts for the first episode, but then I realized nobody wanted to see my knees.

You did change your pants, I will say. I did. I put pants on it. The shorts were fine, just to be clear, nobody was taking shots at your legs. So we should mention when we launched the Ringer podcast network with my podcast in the first week of October, 2015. I remember it well. Only four months after we stopped working together, five months after we stopped working together at Grantland. And I was able, I had to wait out.

And then on October 1st, I could launch my podcast. I did one with Sal, because we had missed the first few. My second one, you came into my pool house and we did a podcast and you were my first guest. And now in this brand new studio that we're going to have, you were the first guest of this one. Do you remember what we talked about? What do we talk about? I believe it was the Ben Affleck, Justin Timberlake, Gambler, movie. I believe that came up. Well, this movie is way better than that.

It's one of the best movies in the 21st century. This was a we watched it and may never watch it again. Well, 20th anniversary broke back Mountain and we were going to talk about it right after this. You know, it could be like this, just like this always. This thing grabs hold of us in the wrong place. We're dead. If you can't fix it, you've got a standard. I wish I knew how to quit you. This episode of The Rewatchable is presented by Holiday Inn by IHG. It's a new day for a new stay at Holiday Inn for business travelers. Do you kind of as a business traveler, Sean?

Sure, sometimes. Okay. With modern spaces for meeting and working plus delicious dining for breakfast to happy hour. Do you breakfast, Sean? I do. I had an apple and a breakfast bar this morning. Oh, interesting. I don't need any breakfast.

But I do love Happy Hour and dinner. They have that too. You have everything you need to get your work done. Give your everyday business travel and upgrade. book your next business trip at Holiday Inn by IHG visit holidayend.com to book your stay. All right, Brokeback Mountain 20 years ago this summer, Heath Ledger died about three years after it came out. And this was already, I think, in the conversation for one of the, I don't know, 20, 25 best movies of the century. But the Heath Ledger piece has changed the content.

There's so many ways to talk about this movie and so many. ways to feel about it in 2025, how we felt about it in 2005, all the things it meant. But watching it 20 years later, the Heath Ledger performance was the thing that jumped out because it's such a great performance. Yes. And you just see the potential of this whole career that we should still be enjoying. And by the end of the decade, he's gone. Yep.

I mean, terrible. And, well, you know, I have really, I had not watched this. movie in its entirety since it came out since the period in which it was a thing and you must have written about it right i wrote about it i think i wrote the only thing i think i wrote about it was in the aftermath of the oscars yeah and it's losing to crash which we'll talk about but um i think that's the only time and i will say i was 20 what was that 27 28 and i wasn't i wasn't i wasn't ready for I don't think I was ready

to receive I was 29 when this movie came out and I don't I was I was disappointed that there wasn't more fucking I distinctly remember that and I think because I was young and single

and I was having a lot of great sexual adventures with with the Ns Del Marz of the world I should say they weren't like they weren't ranchers, but they did other things in the Boston area.

I didn't think you dialed up this fast. Sorry. I'm ready. I just, I'm just, I'm just remembering what my life was like. And I remember thinking, like a lot of people probably,

like this isn't hot enough. I want a hotter movie. Because you felt like Hollywood hadn't really gone here with a big market movie like this and they were finally doing it. So you wanted them to push the envelope as much,

as they could. Yeah, I think, and I'm, I'm going to go to hell for saying this. And I now know better. And also, just to be clear, I was a serious film critic at this time, but I'm speaking as a human civilian person who also had a job to type for a living. I think, I think there's a part of me that was like, I wonder what the Joel Schumacher version of this movie would have been like. Oh, my God. I know. With machine? The machine was so far. Straight to hell. Turns into a stuff film for the second half. Right. But I mean, I think, I don't know.

I'm disappointed. I was disappointed in the movie and now having seen it. Well, how'd you feel about it this? Low, these years later, I'm disappointed in myself. Yeah. Oh, my God. What an adult movie. What?

I mean, sorry. What a movie for adults this is? It is not an adult movie, to be clear. Just that was my issue before. I think it is such a patient movie that is so much more about like being able to love. Yeah.

And wanting to both be loved and to be in love. With all these really subtle real world human questions and concerns, I don't know. I mean, wait, do you remember when you saw it? I saw it with an audience for the first time at the Coolidge in 2000.

I didn't see in the theater. You didn't? I saw it as a pay-per-view. With my wife. We had, we had, my daughter was born that year, and we weren't like, there weren't a lot of couple movies

and we wanted to see it together. So we saw it as a paper view. And, you know, like a big part of the movie and the marketing and just the word of mouth with it was like the sex scene and these two pretty famous young actors

and, oh my God, to have like sex in this and there's a and you kind of knew it was coming it was almost like the the shark and jaws and now all these years later the shark in jaws it's like oh the sharks coming at some point you knew the scene was coming yeah now 20 years later it's like this is all over the place and you you think like I don't want to use the word cutting edge but it just was a little ahead of its time with with what it was trying to do for a bigger market that now is is just all you could go to amazon you go to Netflix you can see it in a million movies yeah it felt Pretty tame compared to what's out there now.

I think that the radical... I think that we kind of have to go back to 2005 for a second. Please do, because it was a big part of the market in the movie. It's a big part why it didn't win the Oscar. I think this movie wins the Oscar hands down now. Oh, yeah. I mean, if you think about what's not going on in moonlight, for instance, right? And I didn't leave moonlight being like,

there's not enough fucking in Moonlight. Like, Wesley, you are missing the point here. Yeah. You don't need that because that's not what the movie's about. And live mixed feelings about that, but about the depiction of sex both in this movie and in general between men. But in 2005, the revolutionary aspect of this movie was that you just weren't to play a, quote, regular guy who was also

who found himself in love with a man. Yeah. To find the actors to play these parts challenging. There's nothing inherently heroic in this story.

This story is a tragedy on a number of levels. And nothing about it is inherently showy. So what's really in it for an actor, for a young actor,

to say yes to that is going to guarantee them something meaningful on the other side of making it. Well, what's funny about that is they couldn't find N. Estel Marr for years. And it was, they looked around and all the typical suspects, like people like, we could talk about it later with casting what if,

so I don't want to spoil it. But there's some people who are like, I'm not doing a movie like that. And now I think in 2025, five people would want parts like this and they wouldn't care about, oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Oh, this might be bad for my career is the thing people would say in the mid 2000. Yes.

Well, I mean, because it was probably true. Right. And I think, I mean, I wonder, I mean, I don't know if now is the time to really talk about this. But like, I really wonder, because watching it, and again, I have this, the movie lives in the culture in this very interesting way, apparently. Because I'd really, I've seen. I've seen parts of it over the years. I'd never sat down to watch it from beginning to end until we were

going to talk. Yeah. But, like, just many, so many of the shots in that movie of Jake Gyllenhaal and Heath Ledger seemed deeply familiar to me. Like, the scenes of them, the scenes in where, like, the shots of them holding the frame together,

the close-ups of their, of their heads alongside each other, of their of, you know, Keith Ledger laying on Jake Gyllenhaal in bed. The shot of Keith Ledger coming up behind Jake Gyllenhaal

and holding him by the campfire and saying, you're sleeping like a horse right now. Right. It's like one of the most beautiful things one person has ever said to another person, weirdly. Especially two men.

I want to, I wonder if the iconography of this movie and just the power of its, the effect of it on Jake Gyllenhaal's career and the fact that Heath Ledger is not here anymore. I don't know. I mean, I've never read any, I've never read him talk about

what this movie has did or didn't do for him. Or did or didn't do it to him? Yeah. But I, I just have been thinking about his career in the wake of this movie and how interesting it has been. Well, I remember in the, I remember, though, maybe the 06 SBs or 07 SBs. I forget who the host was. It might have been Lance Armstrong.

They made like a broke back joke. Oh, sure, because they were buddies, right? Yeah. And I remember in the research, Heath Ledger was like, Oscars wanted to do something with it at the Oscars. He's like, I'm not, that's not what this movie's about. Like, he took it really seriously. We don't, we're not joking about this.

But in the mid-2000s, you did joke about it. Yes. And I think you mentioned Moonlight, call me by your name is another one, where within about 10, 12 years there, it just became, I don't want to say accepted, but more normalized in movies and TV.

Like, we've talked about this before, but that Melrose Place episode where they edited up, the guy's kissing. Oh, my God. That was 12 years before this? Yes, yes. So you think about, like, how this moves with gays and queer stuff and films,

and it's just, this was right at the vortex, as it's shifting, but it hadn't shifted yet. No, and I think, well, if you think about this, that year, your five best picture nominees were Good Night and Good Luck, Crash, Brokeback Mountain, Capote, and... Munich. Eric.

Yeah. Before he was relegated to being on Untamed on Netflix in the Yellowstone Park solving murder. So the craziest sex of those five best picture nominees was in Munich. But, I mean, you had that year Brokeback Mountain on the one hand and Capote on the other, right?

Yeah. You at least, you were seeing movies with depictions of two gay men, or like depictions, two movies about gay men in them, or men who are attracted to men. I mean, we can talk later about, like, what their sexual orientation is, Jake and, or Jack and Ennis in, uh, in Brooke

Mountain. There was a lot. At the time, I remember. I have a spot for that. But it was a topic of, it was a top. Wait, are these guys gay, bisexual or what's going on here? The gays were really annoyed. They wanted some flags. I mean, not all the gays, but I mean, it was a conversation, like, how to, what is our terminology here for these two? So wait, can we hold that point for a second? Yeah, sure. I had something in this for later. We can come back to it, too. Because this is a big part the dialogue. And it's also different of how people probably talk now. But in 2015, Joe and Al said that it was a gay love story and that his character was the more overtly gay of the two. Absolutely 100%. In 2005, Ledger said, I don't think Ennis could be labeled as gay

without Jack Twist. I don't know that he ever would have come out. I think the whole point was that it was two souls that fell in love with each other. That is also true. He would have said it differently now, with this point stand. Yeah. My interpretation, and I've seen this movie a bunch of times because it's one of my wife's probably like seven,

eight favorite movies. I get it. And when it's on, she's just like, I love this. She loves Heath Ledger. So it's just kind of been on in my house,

a bunch. And the more I've seen pieces of it or watched it, I think Jack Twist is clearly gay. Yes. But I don't know about Enis. I just think he, Enis,

Enis, what is it? Enis or Enis. Enis. Yes. Yes. I had an uncle Enis, very Western-oriented. I want to call him Enis, but I know it's Ennis. Enis.

I do think Jack Twist would, because they, there's, like, he checks out Heath Ledger in the beginning of the movie. I mean, we are going to talk about that. He goes to Mexico. Like, I do think he was gay. I don't, I don't know about Ennis, though. But it doesn't really, maybe it doesn't matter. It doesn't work that way.

Like, it basically is, I mean, you know, this movie as a work of politics, which it, it explicitly is not, but obviously is going to abut politics anyway. The politics of this movie to the extent that there are any that it is espousing, it's really the most benign sort of politics, which is, you know, listen, love is going to do what love is going to do. I can't control what my heart wants.

And the amazing thing, though, about their first sex scene, their only sex scene, their only sex scene that we see is that and you know we should say this this movie was based on the Annie Pruill's short story

that ran in the New Yorker in 1997 and immediately everybody's trying to buy the rights to it somebody does and then they try to make the movie for the next six years she's convinced by the eventual screenwriters that this is a good idea and they can do it but in the story

and also in the movie but to read how Ennis responds to Jack's grabbing his hand and in the story, putting it on his dick. Like, he grabs his hand and puts it on his cock in the story. In the movie, he just puts it around his chest. And, and his

stirs, wakes up, and is like, whoa, whoa. But there's something so, like, I got, I get, like, it takes my breath away, thinking about what he, Ledger does as an actor in that moment and what's, you know, what the, what the directions for him are

to do in that moment, which is basically to like take his cock out and start fucking Jake Jillenho. Like, it's automatic. There's no thought happening here, right? Like, he automatically, he is instantly repulsed by this because he's shocked that this thing that like Jake Jillenhaugh sees in the first shot of the movie has been brought to bear on Heath Ledger. Who knows what Ennis has been thinking all these years about who he is and what he wants. I don't know if there's a lot going on upstairs for Ennis. There's clearly enough going on upstairs for him to know to keep all the doors locked. Right.

Right. That in and of itself is a full-time job. And to talk like Buffalo Bill and Sons of the Lamps, those were his instructions. I knew you were going to. I knew you. I knew it. I knew it. Every time I've seen this movie, I was talking on a day.

But you know, sometimes when British and Australian actors go that route, what I hear as a moviegoer is them trying to suppress the original accent. I don't hear the remarkable thing about this performance. He studied like Wyoming and Texas accents. It just sounds like a guy who talks that way from Wyoming. It just sounds like where he comes from. So I had a couple lists. I'll throw these at you.

Anyway, wait, hold on. I'm just, all of that sex stuff was just to say, like, I think he knew what to do with that moment. And he never recoiled from the sex part of the operation. I just, I don't know. I mean, he didn't have a word for it. Nobody had a word. Like, clearly says after they do it, I'm, you know, I'm not queer, right?

Right. And Jack says, me either. Which is exactly what a guy would say when the guy that you want to be with is like, you know, I don't like to do this except for with you, right? And I'm like, I don't like it with his back. Yeah. Anyway, go on. So 21st century movies, because there's been a lot of talk about the first 25 years,

just with everything, sports culture, all this stuff. And, you know, you know, And Sean's doing the 25 countdown. This movie clearly is in the 25. But I was thinking like, Not on the New York Times. Greatest movies. It didn't make it?

I don't think it was. No. I think there was. Really? Crouching Tiger hit. There were two, maybe it was. I can't remember now. I really can't remember now.

Well, I was thinking. Definitely wasn't in the top 20. 21st century movies that either won the Oscar or should have, but then also culturally became a thing. And I think it's there will be blood, social network. Dark Night, No Country for Old Ben, Brokeback Mountain, Oppenheimer, or the six. Oh, interesting.

Yes, yes. Sparked weeks and weeks of real cultural conversation, elevated stars. Brokeback Mountain is on the list. It's 17. I just remembered. It's 17 on the list. Okay. And we're awesome movies that have kind of stood the test of time.

And I'm sure there's more, and people can make whatever list they want, and I'm sure there's more obscure ones or moves that didn't do that well. But I think those six from the first 25 years resonated in like a specific way that I'm not sure other movies. And maybe you could put Black Panther in there or Creed. Like you can you can start finagling the list however you want.

But I just know that those six have to be on it. Yes. Does it make sense? Well, it depends on how you're evaluating this. But 100% yeah, I don't disagree with all. All those movies made money. Yes. Elevated stars in some way were rewatchable.

in some sort of way from a filmmaking, whatever it was. And they were quotable, right? I mean, there was something. And they were like one of once. Like they were movies, all of those movies are movies that were like, I've never quite seen a movie like that. Yes. And I wanted to put, there was a couple other ones that were on the fringe.

I was just thinking about what else you could do. Moonlight. There's some that are close, but I don't, there was some sort of cultural conversation that those movies started. Those feel, those feel definitely at the top of that. pile at the very least. And I'm sure I left that a couple. Anyway, but then there's another list, and you'll be better at this than me,

than me, but the Star Cross Lover list. Oh, sure. Titanic, Romeo and Juliet, West Side Story. But it's a thing that everybody tries to do, but not a lot of movies actually pull it off. We were just like, man, I just really wish those two would get to together. They're not going to make it, but they should. And it's like the oldest device of movies, and yet great movies can't pull it. It's hard to do because you really have to.

This movie is quite powerful, is a really powerful example of it. It's surprising how effective it is given how little time these two people on screen spend together. Right. Right. They're basically together the first 25 minutes or the first 30 minutes. Yep. And then intermittently after that.

But they're not together the whole movie. And so you really have to believe, and I think this is why Jake Jelenhall's performance. is kind of underrated to me. I was thinking it was a little Cruz Rain Mani, how that Goldman needs to write about the part that nobody talks about as a hard part because the other person was so good in it. Yes.

But Joe-Dow is really good in this. He's very, very good in this movie, and I think if both performances, if there are two Heath Ledgers in this movie, it doesn't work, right? Yeah. You need to understand, first of all, well, I don't know.

Should we just talk about what it is Jake Gyllenhaal is playing here. Should I buckle up again? Craig, you're right. You want to put on a second seatbelt? Because I actually think this performance is really worked out.

Both performances are really worked out. We'll get to the women in this movie because at least two of them have really worked something out in a way that is very, emotionally affecting to me. But I think that both Heath Ledger and Jake Jillen Hall figured out exactly

who they were playing. And I think Jake Jillen Hall kind of gets the shirt under the stick here because it's a much more familiar place for an actor to be, right? Well, he's the goofy dreamer. Yes. He gets to act wacky.

And he's courting. He is essentially, I mean, I don't want to gender this. I don't want to sort of conventionally gender this. But like, he's essentially doing two things at the same time. He's the pursuer. Yeah. And he's the Mooney Romantic, right?

He's doing the work of two archetypes at the same time. And in that opening shot, which is just one of the most extraordinary things that I had really not appreciated at the time. I'm sure I ever, I remember thinking it was a. But it's so much more than eroticism that's happening in that opening shot, which is basically Keith Ledger arriving at the... Randy Quaid's trailer. Yeah.

When you put it that way, it sounds like Randy Quaid is involved. But basically, they're arriving for this work. And although Randy Quaid, I gotta say, he's looking real good in this movie. He's really... You're not supposed to... I mean, listen. He's some good sneering in this. He was speaking.

to me. Oh, Randy. Oh, bad Randy. That wasn't on my bingo card today. Well, I stick with me, Bill. If you've not been paying attention all these years, like, I mean, it's the Randy Quades of the world who are incredibly satisfying because nobody's paying that much attention. I'm going to put that in my notes. The point is, Heath Ledger shows up, gets out of the truck, stands against the trailer waiting for it to open because it's not there. Or I guess it's locked. he, uh, Jelen Hall comes in,

Quaid's not there yet. And they just stand outside and proceed to raise and lower their heads. And it's just extraordinary, the choreography here. And what Jalenhall knows,

because I do believe that at this point, Ennis has not had sex with a man before. Oh, God, no. I think he, He might not quite even understand that what he might have been feeling for men was sexual attraction, right? Do we think Ennis even graduated ninth grade? No, they're both high school dropouts.

Yeah. Neither one of them graduated. He probably met Alma when she was 14, and that's probably the only girlfriend he ever had. And I think that... Oh, little remarry, Alma. I know they were together. You had to put the subtitles on for Heath in this movie. I knew you were going to bring it.

Of course. Well, you don't have that many lines. Yeah. So they're just lowering and raising their heads as they cruise each other outside this outside this trailer. And Jillenhall knows what he's doing. Ledger doesn't understand, well, I'll talk in the character's names. Jack knows what he's doing.

Ennis does not. Ennis is experiencing something happening to him that Jack is trying to manufacture. It's a little like the before sunrise scene in the listening booths. Oh, interesting. When they're kind of looking at each other, but at different times. But only Jack Twist is looking. Ennis doesn't know that he's in the game yet. Well, Ennis knows that something is happening,

but I don't think he entirely understands what it is because he's feeling something. He is uncomfortable. He's very nervous. He can't wait to eat beans with this guy. Yeah. There's going to have beans for the next four months. He's definitely intrigued. A lot of people.

beans. Nothing more romantic than beans. As an aphrodisiac. Canned beans is not crazy about. Nothing like flatuants to really get the romance spark. Listen, Angley directed this movie. He'd try to like get you with their flatulins, but we know what is probably happening with these canned beans.

It's a cat and mouse game from that first scene and it is so patient. I think one of the things of this movie compared to what we have to deal with now with most of the terrible movies we have to watch is that people I have to have that dialogue. I have to have a loud song here. I have to have a transition music for the montage.

And this movie's just like, dude, come hang out with us with the mountains for the next half hour. We're going to hurt some sheep. We need some beans. We're going to have some stilted conversation. We're going to ride a couple horses. I also think that what was the thing that's sort of interesting here, and it's easy to miss this stuff because we don't really, like most people, I think, don't. really deal with sheep hurting, right? Most people don't have to deal with like...

Seems confusing. They're not living a rancher life. Craig, harder than running a fantasy team? Sheep hurting? It's pretty tough now in fantasy. It seems really... It's running like four teams? So, I mean, I've got my little handy notebook here, but like, basically these two guys

are, their jobs are the camp tender and the herder. Yeah. Right? So at night, one of them has to go back down. to the sheep so the wolves don't get them. That's basically the assignment here. Keep these sheep alive. And it means they spend a lot of time apart.

And one guy stays at camp and sort of maintains an environment there for the other guy to be able to sleep and whiskey ready. Sleep and eat. But what is happening, what Engley and James Seamus, sorry, what Engley and the screenwriter's Larry McMurtry and, oh, man, what's your name? No, no, no, Diana. Diana Asana, something like that. Yes, yes, yes.

They wrote the screenplay. They adapted Annie Pruill's story. And what you're seeing here, along with some very good editing, is time sort of shrink with these two guys. And the more time they spend with each other, the less time they want to spend apart. Yeah. And they switch jobs where one guy becomes the herder and the other guy becomes the the tender. And it's kind of fascinating because what you see is the rigidity of Ennis sort of begin to relax a little bit as the time passes.

Well, we had that one scene. What does he say? Like, Jack says, that's more words than you said in two weeks. He's like, that's more words than I said in a year. You're like, oh, man, Ennis is open enough. You're getting good at it and it's kind of turning me on. You need to stop. is getting turned on too over there. You're staring at me. Stop it. All right, I'll stop.

I just, like, the thing that's beautiful about this movie is also the thing that is strangest about it from the standpoint of how you watch people fall in love with movies. Yes. And it's all about the passage of time.

And what they give you is seasons changing. Yeah. Environment's changing. There are a lot of shots of the sheep doing their thing. You get a lot of, of shots in nature.

A lot of wide shots of the mountain, sunsets and sunrises. And you are, you are, what you're falling in love with is both the environment that clearly is responsible for the closing of the gap between these two men.

And this environment is bringing them together as much as their innate desire for company for closeness and eventually in the scene that brings them sexually together, warmth, right?

Yeah. Because Ennis is sleeping outside the tent and Jack is like, Jesus Christ, well, you just get in here. I'm tired of hearing you shivering and your teeth chattering. And Ennis comes in

and Jack makes his move. So this movie solidifies Ledger and Jill and all as A-listers, I think. Right? Yeah. solidifies Ang Lee, who was already kind of there because he had had the Ice Storm and a bunch of good ones.

Can we talk about, when are we talking about Ang Lee? Because... Can do it right now. He's a two-time Oscar winning director, which there's only 19 of them. That seems relevant. Yeah. Wedding banquet, sense and sensibility,

the Ice Storm, Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon. Does the Hulk? Was there in that weird era where they started trying to get directors like him to do superhero movies? Let's talk about the Hulk for example. back to broke back after the Hulk's a disaster and has broke back and left for pie. But the Hulk, I mean, the Hulk, I just want to parenthetically say, I think it's like one of the best. Really?

Oh, totally. Of that ilk of motion picture. Oh. Definitely the best. Well, he didn't think so. He was bummed out by it. How would you describe his style, in your opinion, with all those different movies that? Because he's done a bunch of different types of movies, right?

but what is his like, what is his strikeout pitch? Perception. I think he is waiting to see what happens. He often, I think, knows what he's looking for in a scene. I think he really studies the text. He knows the text. But the things that are variable are what the people do.

And he's very, I think he, I think his strength is observation. And it's both the observation of what is happening on the page, but also the intangible properties of what happens once what he knows is on the page gets in front of the camera. Yeah. And I think there are so many, he, I mean, you know, the other word I would use is remote. But that's kind of, that sounds pejorative. But he's such an observant director.

And that's a way that people tend to think about him, which is he frequently is making movies about world he knows nothing about from a life experience standpoint. Apparently now he's doing a Bruce Lee movie. Yeah, I mean... But his son is Bruce Lee is what he's developing. But he hasn't done a movie in like six years. Yeah, I don't...

I miss him. I would have said the same. I would have said perceptive would have been the word I used or patient. Yeah, yeah. And it's something that I just think there's more and more bad, content every year. And of course, I watch a lot of it. But people just think with movies just loaded with dialogue and load music. But very rarely do you see anybody just kind of bring you into a world and just kind of leaving you there. Ease you into it. Take your time. And trusting that

you'll stay. And you don't mind being in there. Call me by a name was like that too, where it's like that it's just kind of moving you into into a place. Yes. I prefer. this movie in a lot of ways. I mean, for all kinds of reasons. I think this movie's... I think, but that patience is a huge part of it. Yeah. Right? His ability to just sort of like trust us

to be able to follow the beats of what is happening between these two men. If they never had that tent scene, right? I mean, it's probably a different movie, but the filmmaking is so good here. He's such a good director. The PG-13 version of it? Well, I mean, if they're just like if everything,

if it's 1950 and we're making Brokeback Mountain, right? Which, by the way, welcome to Bud Boddker and Randolph Scott. I mean, that move. But Brokeback Mountain happened all the time without the tent seat. But I think that he could have gotten away with just giving you the romance of these two people without the sex. Well, it's funny that we have more sex scenes with men and women than we do with the two guys. But you, I mean, think about what the, what? the one sex scene with the

Michelle Williams' character Alma. I mean you know, I mean, in the story, it's such great writing that Annie Prules is doing describing what the experience is like from her point of view, which you don't quite get.

The movie is very faithful to the story, including it's like blinks of interiority, which it brings out in dialogue. And, you know, points of view. But yeah, like most of the sex you're seeing in this movie is officially heterosexual. But, you know, we understand the psychologies of these people.

So we understand what's underneath it too. We're taking a break and then we get talked about the actors. This episode is brought to you by Apple and AT&T. Scroll long enough and you'll hear it all. Miracle diets, fitness trends, you name it. But with iPhone and Apple Watch, you get meaningful insights from a very trust. and source, your body. You can track sleep quality, cardio fitness, and more than unpack all the information in the health app on iPhone to get a picture of your overall health.

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he cast these four leads and it's four actors at fascinating points of their career. Michelle Williams is basically a TV actress. Dawson's Creek. She was in the Halloween H-2O. Hadn't really come through with a movie like this.

Hathaway was Princess Brides. Wasn't she making a Princess Brides? Wasn't she making a Princess Bride? Or making Princess Diaries? Princess Diaries. Yeah, Princess Diaries. I mean, all these Goldman books are tricking me. But she hadn't been in, you know, anything like this and really fought to be in it.

Ledger was on the radar with a bunch of stuff. Like he got offered, Spider-Man turned it down. He was in Ten Things I Hate About You. Excellent. He was a Patriot. He's really good in Monsters Ball, which is... Oh, yes. Monster Ball or Monsters Ball?

Monsters Ball. Monsters Ball. A movie that will not be on the rewatchables is one of the... the most harrowing, disturbing movies. If you did a double feature of that, a million-dollar baby, I think you would just drive your car off a clip.

I mean, just think about who's in that movie. Hallie Berry, Billy Bob Thornton, Heath Ledger, Puffy. The craziest sex scene I think that's ever been in a mainstream movie where I actually... A hundred percent. I would bet that they were actually fucking in that, right?

I mean, I don't know. I don't know how they weren't. I'm waiting for Hallie Berry to call the phone. Where's the bat phone? Where's the cat phone? Tell us what happened. But, yeah, so Heath Ledger's in that, and he's great. And he's kind of on the radar, but this is the movie that does it for him.

And then Jake had been a child actor and, you know, was in a bunch of... What were his child movies? So he had... I don't remember... Well, Donnie Darko was the big one. But he was in, like, City Slickers as a kid and shit. Like, he had a bunch of them. Huh?

I did not know that. Donnie Darko. He's in The Good Girl with Jennifer... Dad, I remember. That's the first time I saw him. Because I missed Donnie Darko when it... in its original run. So 05, he has proof and jarhead and broke back.

And Heath Ledger... What a good year for that guy. Keith Ledger has Lords of Dogtown, Brothers Grimm, and broke back. Yeah, these guys had... These guys individually were having a classic Hollywood year. For an actor. For an actor. But during an era where you were 10 years later, you're just putting on a cape.

Well, I mean... Heath Ledger's agents were like, you got to take the Spider-Man thing, or there's not going to be another one that comes around. 100%. Like, you just named six movies between three guys. Those six, like, I mean, first of all, those six movies wouldn't even be happening now. Yeah, loads of Dogtown.

But just pretend that they were. That's like a stars prestige. Good movie. That's a good movie. It is a good movie. I love Lord of Dog Town. That movie, it's a wonderful movie. It's so lived in.

Is it, who directed that? It was a woman. So it's easy bro. Okay. Yeah. It's just, that movie really knows what it is and the people in it know how to be in that movie. And I think Keith Ledger knew I want to have like, you know,

this happens very rarely with actors where they're from early on like, I want to have my career this way. And I want to be in weird movies and I want to work with good directors. Yeah. I want to challenge myself. And, you know, that's one of the multiple tragedies of losing. losing the dude like that is, I don't know what his career would look like over the next. You'd think like he has broke back and he has Dark Knight in the span of three years.

Like, if you add 15 years to his career, I don't know, what else is he doing? But the movie that I think is the important one is neither Dark Knight nor broke back, which is Casanova. Oh, wow. He hated his own performance in Casanova. Of course he did. Yeah. Like, because that's not an actor's performance, right? Yeah.

That's a movie star performance. That's the performance that a person gives because they want to keep making Brokeback Mountain and they want to keep doing Lords of Dogtown. And that is how you have a healthy movie star career or a healthy acting career because you're willing and because you can do movie star stuff.

I think he would have done a lot of, I think he would have done a lot of non-star parts and gone back and forth between leading movies but then just being like, all right, I'll be the Winkle Voss twins and social network. And I think he would have made like three, four movies a year. Now I'm getting, I just couldn't imagine like what the parts would be. But when you go that route, I'm like, oh, yeah, I think he would have gone all over the place.

Totally could have done Winkle Vy. Yeah. I think he would have been like he would have been in a Coen Brothers movie. He would have been Fincher. He just would have like banged out. Yes. Whatever the best directors were. And I think one of the cool things about this performance, you know, he just has a couple of,

just out of control, highest level of acting scenes. Yeah. Where you're just like, wow. And I think Jelen Hall is great in this movie, but Ledger's like he's like, Hathaway said at one point, she said,

I remember getting to watch the shot of Heath walking across the front yard of the parents, which is really just dust and dirt more than anything. And Heath had decided that at some point, Ennis had been in an accident that had a limp. It was so subtle and it looked like he'd had this limp for about four years, And I just remember looking at Heath in that moment and thinking, this is one of the greatest actors that has been.

Just because he made weird out of nowhere choices like that. But the way other actors talked about him, I think that's when you know. You know what I mean? When people are crossing through his vortex and they're like, Jesus Christ, this guy was incredible. Well, just think about the thing that we're kind of taking for granted so much that we're kind of laughing at the blatancy

of it, but just to play the part speaking that way. Right. I remember there being some conversation when either around the time the movie came out about him not seeming masculine enough to people in the movie industry. Oh, that was one of the reasons he didn't get the part right away.

They didn't feel like he was... So that was... I remember that. That's true. Yeah, yeah. And I... I mean, I mean, I don't know. Is that really a requirement for these... purposes, but sure, fine. He decides, I mean, I'm sure that conversation got to him, like it reached him in some way.

He heard that people were saying it. So I don't know what his choice was here, but I'm also sure he saw Silence of the Lands and was like, there is a world in which people hear this voice that I've come up with, and they're like Buffalo Bill, you know, kill, kill, kill. But you know what's crazy, though? Hit that character versus the Joker? you wouldn't know it was the same actor. You wouldn't know.

Well, this is the thing. I just don't think you would know. I mean, I were like, I don't know who that person is playing this part. I don't know anything about this guy. Like, he has emptied himself of whatever, I mean, whatever baggage he had in 2005 coming to a movie, which is really none,

because it had been six years of him, basically. I don't, all I'm seeing is a character at this point. I'm not seeing an actor playing anybody. Yeah. I agree. And I think that is the thing that, that in part makes the performance so good. You don't know who the person playing it, the part is. It feels like he figures it out even more as it goes along, which might have been the script,

but he does some stuff. I think the last half hour of the movie, he's so, like when he goes, like when the last time he has the scenes with Jack Twist, when he breaks down. when he goes to see the parents, the phone call he has with Ian Hathaway. All the stuff he's doing in all those scenes. I just think like, like when he finds the shirt in the closet,

and you hear like the life just sinks out of his body. Like, he's just, it's really great stuff. It's, like, it's funny because Daniel DeLewis said this was, like, his favorite performance. And, like, he loves this movie. Oh, really? And he loved Keith Ledger in the movie. And it's like, that makes sense to me.

Because it's like when the basketball players vet the other great basketball players, like this is a movie Daniel Day-Lewis is probably like, I wish I had made a movie like this. Well, I think that, well, I mean, Daniel Day-Lews has, with all the respect. Listen, he's made a bunch of great, great, I'm saying, he's made some great choices with the choices he made, right? I think that the surprise of this movie is just how, if you really, you know, diagram the sentence of the performance,

so to speak. Like, there are so many strange things that he's doing here. And so much of it is about, like, staying like this, right? Just never moving beyond the, like, a, like, a, like, a motion, an emotional radius, a physical radius. This is a person who. Right. How he uses his energy.

Like, even when he's waiting for Jack Twist, when he's drinking the bar, in the apartment. Dr. in the bar. And he's just like, yeah. He's got six beers. next to him and he's Oh, he's in the apartment. Yeah, waiting as almost like,

what the fuck's going on? Yes. Who's this Jack Twist guy? I mean, we've all been that person though, right? But the idea that it's Ennis Del Mar who's suddenly like, wrapped around somebody's finger like that is it's really, really beautiful and sweet.

The like child, the child likeness, the adolescence of who Heath Ledger thinks this guy. is because on the page that's not really I mean at least in the short story that's not quite so clear

right he is he is incorporating these very real world human experiences into this performance that are that are very much like being 15 years old and waiting for somebody you've got a crush on to acknowledge your existence

and you think they might even show up you know what made me think I think every generation maybe even every decade has an actor or an actress who's taken too soon and becomes like the what if because like for my generation

it was River Phoenix we thought River Phoenix was going to be like one of our guys right I think I was almost the exact same age of them but it just felt like he was on the track to be

whatever and then he died 100% yes and I think who's your for your generation Craig do you have one because Heath Ledger's older actors I don't know or actresses

I mean but maybe it's once a generation No, I don't think, like, who's died? It's like John Cazel's like that for the 70s, right? He does five movies and dies. Yes, yes. And then you think it almost becomes like sports where you go, man, think all like the ways this could have gone. No, we don't really. It's also different now.

We don't really have. I mean, we have Mac Miller, Kobe Bryant. They're all other places. Yeah, it's more musicians. And then Jelen Haw, who I think, you know, had a really, really good, meaty career. Yeah, it's gone in a lot of directions. He's had, I think, some really good rewatchable movies. He's had some stinkers.

He seems like he's now reinvented himself as this presumed innocent show. A karaoke artist, basically. Well, he's basically like, he's now in this John Hamm, like, he's going to be on your big Apple TV screen doing some show. And maybe that's where he is now. But this is after 25 years of work. Right, that's an industry condition that he is like, he's riding that. wave the best that he did. He did it the way he did it. He's a good actor. But it's interesting that like he is doing Roadhouse and Presumed Innocent, you know,

these sort of iconic parts. Right. For at least Roadhouse. By the way, two massive hits, right? Amazon, that was the big movie. Was that a massive hit? Massive hit. Okay. And then Presumed innocent was like one of the only shows that resonated last summer. I really love Jake Gyllenhaal. I am always rooting for him. I love his choices. I think that he, you know, I didn't really finish my point about what's so good about this performance, though, in terms of his studying. Jake's? Yes. And the thing about it is he knows he's playing a rodeo guy.

Right. Right. This is a guy who professionally wanted to, like, catch things for sport and entertainment. And he is good at catching men, right? Oh. And I don't like the idea of him, like, being a stalker. That's not what this is. But he wanted something and he lassoed it.

And he tried to keep it. He was driving 14 hours back and forth to wherever the fuck you did. He wanted to keep it, and it keeps trying to get away, and he keeps trying to keep it close. And Ennis is trying to, like, get out of the rope. So the four actors who, I think, spent a bunch of time together on the set and, like, really became, like, close. And then Heath Ledger falls in love with Michelle Williams during the movie. And apparently, like, people knew right away, like, oh, this is on with these things. They don't have having a kid.

He doesn't work for a year because she's working and he's raising the kids. So he doesn't, there's, has like a year off or so. But I think that everybody, like Joan Hall was like the godfather of their kid. There's a lot of like that makes sense. I mean, like think about what it actually meant to shoot those, those sheep scenes. Right. I mean, at the end of the day, sure, there's a crew, but it's these two guys basically a alone in the woods for weeks on it.

So it ends up being one of the big Oscar disgraces of the 21st century. Can you think of a better one? Angley wins for director, wins for best score, wins for adapted screenplay. Crash beats broke back. We covered crash. We did a flawed rewatchables of that one a while ago. You missed it. I didn't miss it as a listener.

And we don't have to litigate how dumb that was. It was dumb when it happened. it was fucked up, and it shouldn't have lost. But Hoffman versus Ledger is a really interesting one, because Hoffman's great in Capote. And I think as the years past, people are like, oh, man, Ledger.

I don't really know the answer to that one. But there was no answer. It wasn't a bad Oscar for, like, Hoffman became Truman Capote. That was fucking incredible. No. So I don't really know how I feel about that. Both performances were great.

I get it. Well, you know, let's just do some Hollywood math here. Hoffman deserved one. Hoffman had been around for longer. Ledger was 25 years old. He was 25 years old. There was a belief that, like, well, he'll be back here 10 more times.

Right. Why wasted on, why not give Phillips Seymour Hoffman his Oscar now? We'll give it. We'll give Heath. It was brewing for five, six years with Hoffman. Like, this guy's a fucking awesome actor. Right. And then culminates in Capote.

And also, the performance is just very good. Like, I really, I really, like, watching Brokeback Mountain this time, I was like, this performance is great. But I also understand, I don't have any objection to what Phillips. Jill and how loses to George Clooney and Siriana? I'm not sure what happened there. I'm going to sit on my hands. George Clooney and Syriana?

Think about that. Think about the times that we lived in in 2005. Like, that first of all, Craig, have you ever seen Syriana? No. Do you even know what Siriana is? No. I've heard of it. I don't know what it's about.

It was that crazy time in our lives when the movies really were, though, about the world we were living in. It was post-out-11. Yep. The Bush stuff had started. Yeah. And all of a sudden,

Searhan is an important movie. Yeah, it's not an important movie. It's a movie that thinks it's important. It's a movie that thinks it's an important movie. But I want to, you know how I feel about category fraud. Yeah. Well, Jelen Hall should have been best out. What are we doing here?

Yeah. What are we doing here? Ledger's in probably two more scenes. Although, I guess Ledger's basically the last 20 minutes of the movie. It's him. But I don't, okay, that is literally true. I don't feel like this is a grade one category fraud. Really?

Yeah, because they're trying to get Jillenhall an Oscar, right? You don't want him competing against Heath Ledger, and Ledger is in the movie more than Jake Gillenow. But it's not screen time that determines this. Listen, we live in a world where Lector was best actor for... That's what I'm saying. It's like it doesn't. The screen time is not the issue here.

It's the importance of the character. It's the two guys together. I get it. It's like there's no, it's not only is there no movie without Jake Gyllenhaal, but like Keith Ledger's performance means something else without the, it's the Tom Cruise and Rain Man question.

Right? Like, I just feel like what, what Jillenhall is doing. I don't know how these things work. I'm sure that like somebody in his world had to sign off on him being demoted to this. other category in order to like make it easier for them both. If I'm telling home, I'm like, put me in supporting.

There's no way I'm bidding Heath Ledger. I just hate. I just want a W. I just hate category fraud. Well, he's also too good. It just, I don't know. Michelle Williams, best supporting actress, loses to Rachel Weiss. Wait, who else was that year?

The Constant Gardner. Amy Adams and Junebug. Catherine Keener and Capote and Francis McDormand in North County. What would call it a strong year? Wasn't a strong movie year 2005 was not a great movie year. I love Rachel Weiss. She should have Oscars for maybe four other performances.

People were charmed by her in that movie. Obviously, of those five performances, I'm probably going with Michelle Williams. What's funny is this isn't the most traumatized wife if she ever played. It's not even close. It's not even close, actually. That is true.

Somehow marrying Enistel-Mar wasn't as bad as the Manchester by the sea guy. No. But she's really good at that sort of suffering. I don't think anyone has a better. I'm completely broken, suffering, wide-eyed. I'm about to start crying, but I'm trying to stay strong face. She might be the goat. Well, she always, she has this ability to look.

like, yes. Like, like, like, she's trying to keep it together. Yeah. But like, I'm, I'm this kind of crier where like the crying starts before I can even articulate why I'm, why I can't articulate.

Like when you cry later in the podcast? Possibly. Okay. I don't want to. 14 million dollar budget. 14 million dollar budget made 179 million dollars. Everywhere or in the year? Yeah, everywhere.

Yeah. Yeah, 14 million dollar budget. Roger Ebert. Four stars. Brokeback bound could tell its story and not necessarily be a great movie. It could be a melodrama. It could be a gay cowboy movie.

But the filmmakers have focused so intently and with such feeling on Jack and Ennis that the movie is observant as work by Bergman. Strange by True, the more specific of film as the more universal, because the more it understands individual characters, the more it applies to everyone. Yep.

Raj, nailing it. Roger's on a heater right now. Just true. But you know what he also gave four stars to? Suriana? Oh, crash. He did. We did again that.

He was affected. And also said, listen, listen, y'all, the better movie actually did win. Yeah, I know. I mean, not great. Not great. Let's do the most rewatchable scene.

So it's not. Nothing really in the first 25 minutes except for that first scene outside the trailer that you're pointing out, like the little cat and mouse game. But basically we're just hanging out as the guys eat beans and get bumped. The scene, I got to throw it in there because it's one of the most famous scenes of the movie. I want to... The tent scene? I'm going to tell a story. Okay.

Oh. We watched this movie the other night with my wife and my daughter, who's home from college. Okay. She had no idea what this movie is, but she really likes Heath Ledger and Jake Gyllenha. Carrie loves this movie. This is one of my wife's like seven or eight favorite movies. Okay. And my daughter doesn't know what it's about, but likes the two actors.

Okay. So we're going and we're going 25 minutes, and she's into it, and she likes it and looking at the phone every once in a while. And we get to this scene. And I forget who's behind you, but somebody rolls over, and she's like, wait, why are they cuddling? And Carrie starts laughing. And so he goes, wait, what's going to, what? And then the tensing hat, and she couldn't believe it. She had no idea it was coming.

So that was kind of funny. And then so she's seeing it through the prism of everyone does it. Like really, we're going to throw in the gate. Like we see Amazon, Netflix, all these different streamers. They all try to be edgy by having characters going all these different directions. So her guard goes up. she's like, oh, here we go. This is the way we're going.

And by the end of it... But where did she think they were trying to... Where did she think she was going to be taken? I just didn't think she didn't know what she was watching. She just thought we were watching like a Western. Okay. By the end of the Taylor Sheridan show. Right.

Which, hey, Taylor Sheridan, you know what you could use a little bit more of? Honestly, I mean, listen, let's be real. Let Cole Hauser have it. Let him go. Let him off. Let him explore the studio. space. By the end of the movie, my daughter was, like, sobbing in tears. Couldn't believe that they

So it did its move, man. This movie's really good. Anyway, next scene, Jack and Ennis fight and say goodbye. And Ennis throws up and punches the wall a couple times, which apparently he did in real life and wasn't supposed to punch the wall. And they already broke his hand. He had a spring I mean, he gets up and looks at it. He's looking at his hand as he walks away from the punch. Method acting sometimes can go wrong. It's a small scene, but Randy Quaid telling Jack Twist, there's no chance for another job. Yeah. You Bush, sure found a way to pass the time up there.

Twist, you guys wasn't getting paid to leave the dog, baby the shit in the sheep. Why, you stem the rose. Stem the rose. I've never heard that one before. When you stem the rose, basically, you are kind of doing this. Wow. Randy. Jack meets Lorraine.

Anne Hathaway's character. Yeah. She's ready to go. She's, I mean. She's a go team. A lot of horses. Lock it down. But it's just A.N. Hathaway, coming in through our 100.

Jack goes to see Ennis, which we talked about, when he gets the postcard. Yeah. Comes in. Alma's like, hey, do you think your friend will want to have a coffee? No, he's from Texas. He doesn't drink. coffee. What of the great?

Runs out to meet him and then Alma makes the mistake of opening the door thinking she's going to meet Alma makes the mistake. What is Ennis doing? Yeah. Ennis just lost his mind. The biggest picking knit of the movies, what is he

doing? That's the, yes, you're, okay. Public? Yeah, well, I mean, like, he didn't even hide behind a corner. I mean, he just jumps his body. I am telling you, I am telling you, the others.

He really missed them. There are some real contexts that we have to keep in mind. This is probably 1963. Yeah. This is we're in... No, now we're in 67. All right. Well, we're in the 60s.

Not exactly a big, like, respect your woman zone. We didn't know we were in 1967 because Angley decided not to play Credence Clearwater Revival to let us know we're in 1967. Yeah. Well, we're in a real hippie free zone. Yeah. So there would be, there'd be no. conventional markers. But I mean, I think the thing that that is so devastating about this movie

that's ancillary to the love story is just the sexist, misogynist, chauvinist world, these guys are living in and in their way maintaining, right? Yeah. These are two people who are ultimately kind of shitty to women. And I have a whole category for this later. And I think the power of that scene is, I mean, you understand what's happening here immediately because Ledger is sold you. I'm a sure, I understand. She's like, but it's, there are two times when we see, the thing that's shocking about that scene to me is there are two times in the movie where we are, we're outside the relationship.

Yeah. And we're seeing what somebody else sees. And it's almost as if that, like, that movie. trick of translation where like these people, these two characters, all these characters are speaking one language and we're hearing it as English. And then there's like some cut to somebody else who doesn't speak that language and we're hearing gibberish, right? It's like the Randy Quaid sneer when he's got the binoculars and he's just like, yes. The two times we're seeing it, we're seeing it through a window and through binoculars.

And through a tire iron flashback. Right. But that's sort of different, right? because we don't know whose perspective that is. Yeah. But the, the, you just totally understand the immediacy of it. And these two actors are selling, we don't give a fuck who sees this. He like comes to his senses.

It's the one time in the movie that Jack loses, that Ennis loses control, that, in a way, well, I mean, this also is violent. I mean, Ennis only loses control. His only mode of expression is, is violence. The only emotional mode is either fucking somebody

or fucking them up. I think when your friend comes out of nowhere to visit and you just tell your wife, hey, we're gonna get some drinks. Not sure I'm to be back tonight. Like, what is that?

You know what it was? It was the 1960s. That's what I'm saying. You just tell your wife, like, that's what I'm saying. I don't know if I'm gonna be back today. I don't know if I'm gonna be back.

Craig, you should try that over the weekend. Liz, somebody's in town. I don't know if I'm coming back tonight. I think he even says, like, in a couple days. Right. Right.

Well, I mean, in the story era, I don't remember if this happened, I don't think this happens in the movie, but in the story, Jack is like, just tell her you'll be back in a few days. I do it all the time, basically. Do you think we could have, like,

one of the 50 states just operates with social rules for the 60s where men are just like, I'll be back. I think they do. Bill, we live in that country right now. I was just set you off in the day. The United States are this imaginary state.

You're talking about. I'm just trying to turn back in 1955 all day long. Alma's, I think my husband's passionately making out with his friend Jack Twist Face is in the pantheon of faces in the movie. What an expression. Just like, oh my Lord. What an expression. The Campfire combo, another rewatchable scene of whether they could end up together when Ennis tells the flash by Tyre Iron Story and it basically sets the stakes. like this isn't just about forbidden love.

Like we can fucking get killed here. Yes. So important. I like the double dysfunctional Thanksgiving with Lareen's asshole dad turning the TV in that little battle. And then we have Jack Twist and Alma. And she's like, you know, I kept those tags on that fishing pole. And I wrote a little note. And you never caught any fish.

And man, it got it. Which was the more dysfunctional Thanksgiving, probably that one. Well, because you don't expect, I mean, the thing about Ennis is he is so, everything is so tamped down. And he thinks that he's got control over the whole narrative. Yeah, and she knows the whole time. And she knows the whole time and the idea that the real thing for him that is so upsetting is that he wasn't getting away with anything. Right. He thought he was getting away with this thing and she had no idea.

You didn't go up there to fish You didn't know nothing about I'm gonna heal from the wrong He thinks she's stupid and can't figure it out Yeah She's known the whole time So he threatens to kill her basically Jack's uh

This is one of my favorite scenes The double date With Jack and the guy from Stranger Things And they're wild And in a fairis And they're out in the back And he's like Yeah I love to go fishing

we ought to go down there some weekend. I got a cabin. Got a cabin. And they kind of have that moment. It's been a running joke with me and my wife for 20 years because, you know, when you're in L.A., you meet parent friends. There's a couple. There's been a couple times where she was like, what did you think of so-and-so?

And I was like, I don't know. He kind of gave me a, I got a cabin. We could go up there for a weekend vibe. Bill, your job is to get me the phone number. What are you doing? I mean, I'm in a relationship now and I hope to be for the rest of my life, but you need to be getting me some phone numbers.

We ought to go down there some weekend. You've been holding out on me all this time? That seems hilarious. Oh, my God. The big scene. I think this is the best scene in the movie. The boys hanging out. It's the I, I wish I could quit you.

Why don't you? But it's actually, that scene is so much better than what became kind of a meme of that scene. I wish I could quit you. You know, it ends with Heath Ledger has like a breakdown. He's like, it's because of this, I'm like, I'm like this. I'm nowhere. I'm nothing.

It's just, you're just like, oh, my God. Why don't you just let me be, huh? Because of you jacked that I'm like this. Nothing. I'm just, I'm nowhere. Yeah, but I mean, poor you. Like, this guy is offering you an opportunity. to get away from all this stuff in your sake.

You're turning it down. It can be in Mexico. It's great on there. But you also understand it. Like, this is a person who doesn't believe in happiness. Right. Like, he doesn't believe in it. He doesn't believe it's possible.

And it's so true, I think, having met people from that zone of the country. So you're thinking this is like late 70s at this point. So it's still pretty realistic that it seems inconceivable. Yes. So you could. Yes. Actually, yeah, let's do this together. It's just not on the car.

It's inconceivable. Like in Wyoming, in any part of that corridor, insane. But I think that the tragedy, the great thing about that, there's a few great things about that scene. One is the way Heath Ledger

is turned from the camera. And Jake Gyllenhaal's assignment there is to try to like, I don't know if his assignment is to get him to, like, show us. Oh, when he comes back. Yeah, yeah. His crumpled face to show us. But,

Jake does some good stuff in that scene, too. Like when he sees how broken Ennis is, and you just see, like, the life got now, he's like, oh, man, I pushed that too far. Because it's the first time he stood up to him. Yeah. Declared everything, right? I mean, they've been lying to each other a little bit. Like, like, there's, I don't believe there's any girl that Jake Chilinall's been running around.

Oh, I thought that was the guy. I thought that was the cabba guy. I think he's saying it's a girl, but I think it was the cabman guy. I think it's a girl. It was David Arbor. Yeah. Which I totally get. Why are we doing? Like, if David Harper or David Harper playing a guy on a cowboy hats,

it's down to you on a bench and says, yo, I got a cabin. Why don't we go to it? What are you going to do? I'd be like, it's week five of the NFL season. You would be like, Harry, Viking Packers is that I said that next to me. I can't go. I can't, I can't do this.

I've got kids. But I mean, that's such a great moment also because, and we can, I don't know when we talk about this, But, like, the other power of this movie is that it is expressing homosexuality in zones in which American popular culture never even thinks to look. Well, especially in 2005. Now I think it's more commonplace, right? Yeah, but in 2005, that was part of the power of it. Even now, right?

I mean, even now, this is, like, watching this movie, it still feels like, there is some seal that is still not entirely broken on, like, who gets to be gay? Who gets to, like, declare themselves as gay? I did think, like, I didn't put this in the rundown, but I did think this movie would be way more polarizing in 2025 over some of the, some of the ways it's discussed, though gay, bisexual, straight. Like, I just feel like it would. Like, how we term, like, by the terminology.

All the terminology. I just feel like there would have been some quagmire and we entered versus or somebody gives a quote during the junket and they don't like how they said the quote. Sure. That becomes a thing. I mean, even the things that they were saying at the time of the movies making probably would have gotten somebody in trouble. But yeah. I don't know.

That's an interesting thing to think about too is like how this movie lands if nothing changes in 2025. We could have a good laugh together. Fucking real good. Good life. How to play some of our own. Like, yeah, he's making some good points. Jack calls Lorraine. It's a really good ANA Hathaway scene.

Wow. Yeah. And there's some good research on this that I'll get to later, but I love how ambiguous it is. Yes. It's like, does she know who this is? There's a lot of ambiguity. Does she know how Jack died? Yes.

What does she want this person to know? It's just really. And then Ennis finds the shirt, sees the parents. Incredible job by those broken parents. That seems like a fun house. I like what she's like, y'all, come back whenever. It's like, yeah, that sounds great. How about two weeks from now?

We can get together and have some more good times. Yeah, for Ennis Del Mar to find something truly unpleasant enough to never return to it is really saying a lot. Come back and see us again. And then when the guy talks about, the dad talks about how Jack was talking about, first it was this, Ennis Del Mar who come up here. And then he got this new guy who was getting a divorce and he was going to come up here.

And this is like, wait, what? What's the most rewatchable scene for you? Oh, the opening. Opening said, okay. Because you always want to evaluate to, like, I mean, I've seen the opening a bunch of times. we're watching it in the context of the whole movie. It's just you're watching a little modern dance

between these two men and it's really quite good. We'll take another break and then rest of the categories. This episode is brought to you by McDonald's. Right now at McDonald's, you can get great deals all day with McValue. Jumpstart your day with the under $3 menu featuring a sausage McMuffin for just $1.50. Or grab the perfect lunch with the McDouble. for just 250. Honestly, nothing pairs with a movie marathon like a McDouble in hand.

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Offered by Fandual Prediction Markets LLC, a registered futures commission merchant. 18 plus. Trading derivatives involve significant risk and may not be suitable for all investors. Manage your activity with our consumer protection tools. All right. What's the most 2005 thing about this movie, Wesley? Is it how young all the soon-to-be way more famous actors are? or is it that it was considered as controversial as it was in 2005 when you watch it again? Definitely how young everybody is.

And that you couldn't make this movie now, even if somebody were trying to make it, who would you make it with? Like, it had to be these four people. I was going to ask Craig for a recasting couch. Who is Ennis and Jack Twist? I feel like there is a group of actors now who are challenging themselves in these ways. by playing characters like this, like Paul Meskell and Adam Scott and Josh O'Connor. I don't, oh.

I thought Paul Mesco was one of the ones. Paul Mesco, I could see in one of the world's fair. Well, I'm sure. I think Josh O'Connor and Paul Meskill are about to be in a movie about a gay romance, I think. Yeah, but it's a New Hampshire, totally different thing. Yeah, yeah. But yes. The Western is different because there's a physicality with it that, like, I think just rules out,

like Tom Holland. Mike Feist. Mike Feist. I mean, we're recasting character. Are we doing it now? No, I'm just, I was thinking how unique this time with the actors was. And there's another very obvious person who I had in my brain. You're right.

They need a physicality. It can't be shallomay. Right. No, no, no, no. But that's obviously the person that they're going to go to. It could be Shalame and the Sasha Baron Cohen, like, gaining 50 pounds of muscle. Do you see that? Jesse Plymouth.

It's too old now, though. Maybe, but like Jesse, Jesse Plymonds. is the sort of person. Oh, who's that guy? Will Pouter? Will Poulter? I feel like they would do it now and it would be like,

and Sabrina Carpenter Azama. Yes. I mean, probably yes. Actually, she might not be bad. She probably would not be bad, honestly. What stage the best? Do you think it's something Gossling could have done 10 years ago?

100%. Yes. I agree with that. But I mean, I just want this. Because when you think about who else could have played these parts in the actual real time. I'm like, you've got to be kidding me.

Funny is casting Danny McBride as Ennis. And Shane Gillis and Jack. Now, wait a minute. No, wait a minute. Wait a minute. Wait a minute. You're in on this? Let's take this seriously for a second.

Because... You're out here jerking off on the beans. Let's do with Danny McBride stuff. I'm actually serious about this. Because the one... The one, I mean... I'll pick my knit later. We'll come back.

All right. We'll come back. What's age the best? The score is incredible and it wins the Oscar. It's just great. It's perfect. It is perfect. And just like one of the last movie scores that isn't in a Christopher Nolan movie, where the movie is sort of that music, that you hear it and your automatic, your heart just starts to swell.

You're calling out the goat John Williams telling him he's not been working hard enough the last 20 years. I'm just like. Step it up, John. I know you're 93, but come up with some fucking shit. Just say, take your corners. Ripping John Williams off is what I'm saying. You've done the work, sir. You've done the work.

What's age the best? A character saying the title in the movie in a scene. Oh, we got here is Brokeback Mountain. It's like, great. You said the title. This isn't a Western, but it's a Western adjacent, which almost needs like its own name. But I like being outdoors with a lot of animals and,

you know, just like that. Western-ish. Just how kind of the quietness and like the first 20 minutes of no country for old men is like this when Josh Boland goes out to see the murder and just big vast nothing and just quiet and there's an eeriness and a creepiness with it. I love things set in the middle of the country in the southwest where none of the conventional Hollywood things happen in that iconocity. You never know what's going to go. Heath Ledger and Michelle Williams falling in love during the filming. Now their daughter is, I think, like, six months younger than mine. Oh, wow.

The Tilda, who's like very low profile on her. Okay. Jack Twist as a character, we mentioned it before, but the dreamer, when the dad says at the end. Yeah. Like, oh, Jack's ideas, it never came to pass. I just, I like, I like that these characters are just losers in like not like the, I don't think we have enough, like, loser characters anymore because now they would just be like some in-cell in front of a computer or something.

But we don't have, like, just down on their luck, guys, it's never going to work out. Andes, guess what? It's going to pay child support. His life's going to suck. He's going to go to this bar and drink. And that's probably he's going to live in this trailer. That's it. That's where it's going to end.

The last shot of the movie is one of the most devastating shots for, I mean, it's up there. I think magnificent obsession, the Douglas Cirque movie. the last shot of that movie is doing a similar thing, which is like really setting up the hero or heroin in the case of the Douglas Cirque movie. Like, it's a tragedy. And how do we know it's a tragedy? Yeah.

Because they're going to be alone. And here's what they're alone with. This particular memory. I think the Cirque movie is ultimately more devastating somehow because it's a TV instead of a shirt. That's a great shot, Gordo candidate with the shirt, with the rope and road. And then the road is.

in the background that's kind of similar. Just ingenious framing and storytelling. Angley, good at stuff. I'm just going to say this for what stage is the best. Sneaky hot cast that doesn't get mentioned in the hot actress cast arguments that I like to have never. But Michelle Williams, because I'm old,

Michelle Williams, Ann Hathaway, Kate Mera, and Linda Cardalini. You left for four. Anna Farris for a scene, yeah. Who's also wonderful. Great job by you. Yeah. I like this exchange.

What do you do, and it's DeMar, Del Mar? Earlier today, I was castrating cows. Yeah. What other, what stage is the best do you have? We've mentioned a lot. Hold on. I think for me, it's the score is the one, the eternal one. Oh, yeah.

The score is the thing that will last forever. And the Heath Ledger piece of it. Did you have another one? You have your scribble. No, I mean, I've just got a lot of notes here. A big cahuna burger word for best use of food and drink. Probably when they cook, what do they make? Like elk or venison?

It's an elk. Yeah, elk. I like that or just a lot of the beans. I mean, how did they did a lot of jerky? They were doing, I mean, they know what they're doing with a giant wild animal. Actually made me a little hungry, Craig. Yeah, when you're out there? That sequence.

Going from beans to that? I mean, as a beans lover. You're shitting for days after that. That's a real RFK. Why are we hating on beans? I mean, I'm just like... I'm saying beans every day, like at some point. But at some point, you know what's great about beans every day.

You stop farting. Like, eating them every day. How do you know? What did you eat beans every day for two months? I eat beans all the time. I'm a soaker and a boiler. I love the beans. We don't get to give this category out very much.

And I'm really excited about it. Yeah. It's the Sean Penn. I brought my own pack award for excellence and on-screen smoking. So it's a scale of one to Robert De Niro and Goodfellas, which is a 10. And he's the only one who can be a 10

because nobody's better than him in that movie when he does the Mori cigarette. Oh, yeah. He stares down Mori. That is one of the, you know, because smoking is a big, as a non-smoker, but like as a person who's lived with smokers most of his life, most of his childhood,

I'm really, you got to convince me you know what you're doing with a cigarette. And CR made the point when we redid Goodwill Hunt thing. Cole Houser walks into the bar, finishes a cig, grabs a beer, grabs car keys, puts the sig out all in one motion. That's probably like a 9-7. That's very good. I think Ledger's like a legitimate 9-5.

Was he a smoker? I don't know if he was a smoker or not. But I believed it. I'd actually... I believe it. He, uh, I think he said he's smoked wheat since he was like seven years old every day. So he clearly was comfortable smoking. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, there's just a comfort. There's a facility with the, with the instrument there.

It just seems like he had a lot of butts on the set. And then Jake, I think it was like a 7, 5, 8 range. I was really convinced with his smoking as well. I just culminating in a double smoking post-coedic scene. Oh, yeah. They're both fucking banging out six. And it's like, you guys are,

this is not watching Tom Cruise trying to work his way through a Barbara Red. No, no, no. Just some of the worst, one of the, the worst smokers. Or Keanu Reeves and Hardball. Julia Roberts, Tom Cruise, really most people are just not convincing smokers. Like most actors are not convincing smokers. De Niro should be like when quarterback study the mechanics of like Joe Montana.

But most people who smoke in movies aren't that character. And the reason that smoking was so good was that's the only way that guy knows how to smoke. Right? Right. Like, it just makes, it just is perfect. It's perfect. The Great Shot Order Award, most cinematic shot. We already mentioned that one at the end.

I also wanted to volunteer when Ennis beats the two guys up on Fourth of July and has that wide shot of the fireworks going up behind them and his wife's like, what the fuck is. Yeah. It's just like really well framed. It's nice job by them. There's a lot of choices in this movie for Best Shot. I mean, all those closeups of the two of them are really, I just remember them. Yeah.

And I, like, seeing them in this movie watching, having watched it really recently, they just seemed so familiar to me. Like, I've been looking at them my entire life. Kid Cuddy Pursuit a Happiness Award Best Needle Drop. Sweet Melissa by Allman Brothers. I'll go with that. Or the ending when he says, Jack, I swear. And then the score, like, kicks in with a hard guitar.

Yeah. Jess Rockwell, Brocklander's a word for Best Character Name. So you'd want to say Jack Twist here. Don't you? Can I make a case for Lurine? What the fuck is that name? Listen, you about to get a lot of Larenes in your inbox. No, I'm saying if you're Larene, you're only from three states in the country. Lorens are coming for you.

Texas, Oklahoma, and maybe Nebraska. It's a flavor of name Lurlene is a name I'm familiar with. I'm just saying that is a specific region of the country, Lerene. Yes, yes. But Jack Twist is your winner. Jack Twist is pretty good. Alma Jr., though, let's just sit with this for a second. I had that in picking nits.

Jack, oh, who? Well, just like, who names their daughter, Alma Jr.? In 1967? Listen, I mean, are we, did you not hear what I said about misogyny, chauvinism, and sexism running wild during the, during the 20 age? Listen, there's not, I don't know. The answer is no. Butch's girlfriend award for weak link of the film.

Craig mentioned a big one that they would be that open, but I think you could make a case. they both lost their minds. Jack and Ennis, when they see each other after four years, and they're just making out in the driveway. I don't, Craig, I would think that you might be like a, if you spend your whole life hiding it, don't you think that you would. But it's, you've also gotten a really massive dose of a thing that you didn't even know you wanted.

And it's been four years since you had it. And it's coming over right now. That's how I feel about Drake May this season. You can't hide it. I can't hide my love for that guy. No, I mean. The patrons might be good again. I think the thing that's so great about that scene is it's, it's, he just, it's, it's, it's, it's the first time in his life that he's lost control in, in, in public like that, right?

The other time, you know. Yeah, there's a case. Yeah. So I'm going to go. I really understand. I understand. Can I go with this instead? Jack Twist, just driving 14 hours back and forth, 3.

three, four times a year to go fishing with his buddy and his wife's never like, huh? That marriage is... 14 hours is like... I think she was like, huh? Right, I think she was. I think that marriage is basically dead anyway. On the phone at the end,

you can feel that Lorene knows what's going on. Yeah, I agree. Jack says that to Ennis at one point, too. I agree. I think that there's something... She, there's no way... I'm sure that the wife... I'm sure Anna Ferris and Anne Hathaway,

those characters had conversations because Anne Hathaway, Anna Farris is married to David Harbor, right, in this movie. He's got a cabin. And so the cabin is probably a topic of real conversation. Like, what happens in that cabin? I had this later in unanswerable questions, but he's driving 14 hours both ways, like three times a year.

What's the furthest at the horniest point in your life you would have driven for sex regularly? It's 14 hours. I just want to point out in the AM radio days, with shittery cars and no podcasts. That's like a, that's a long time. It's a 28-hour round trip. That's like if you just decided,

if Craig's like, tomorrow I'm just going to drive to, I don't know, Texas. You're probably stopping to sleep as well. It's like a real two-day trip. I mean, that is a real commitment. I want to point you to a song called I drove all night.

Okay. By Cindy Lopper. Oh, yeah. And then Celine Dion. Because that's how Selina is. Somebody makes a good song and Yeah, she's got right on it. I mean, I had to escape.

The city was sticky and cruel. I mean... 14 hours. That's some good sex. I mean, listen, I've done it. Not 14 hours. I have run. I have run.

I have run across Boston. I will not name this person, but I have run from Cambridge. I ran from Cambridge to Back Bay. Okay. I've been. I ran down mass app. That's over an hour.

That's not that far. Like when you're running, that's like a 20-minute run. I did it, though. It depends what part of Cambridge and what part of back bay. Listen, when you, I don't, when it's love, like, deep attraction, excitement. I fucking ran. She'd take the fucking tea or something. Are you kidding?

This was like 11 o'clock at night. Do you know how long I've been waiting? I'd be waiting for like the red line to come. come and take me. Also, I'd have to transfer. Sounds smart. I'd have to get off at Park Station to go get on the green line. That's five minutes.

That's insane. Just go to mess up. What's age the worst? Okay. Kate Maren, Heath Ledger, were four years apart in real life. I know. It's fucking weird at the end. It looks like she's like the new girlfriend.

It's his daughter. They didn't age him. They didn't age him enough, I don't feel like. He was only 39. Yeah. They were only those. When Jack dies, he's 39 years old. So he's not even really that old.

He could have given him some bad facial hair or something. So he's 20 when he has her probably, like 19 or 20. All right. I can't wait to do this part with you. Uh-oh. Where does Ennis rank in the worst movie husbands ever rankings? I have some choices. Wow.

I don't think he's in the top 10. You don't think he's in the top 10? Because I made this list. Well, because he doesn't do anything violent. Well, go on. Let's just figure it out. We're going from scale one to ten. Okay.

Sleeping with the enemy guy. Ugh. All right. Laura! I mean, that guy, you had to, like, change your identity and end up in the middle of nowhere and he still found you. That guy's in a tear of his own. He was in OCD. He was, like, rearranging the cans in her kitchen.

Are we ranking these? I'm just, I'm giving you some choices. This is, this is going to be hard to beat Patrick Bergen in that movie. Oh, we're going to beat him. Really? Ike Turner. and what's love got to do with it? Jesus Christ, fine.

Phantom thread guy? Oh, no. Yeah. She's poisoning him. Huh? She's poisoning him in that movie. He was a fucking psycho. That's why he poisoned her.

He needed to be poisoned. Interesting. Nah, he's a different tier. I got some more. That's a different tier. Carlo Rizzi and the Godfather. Oh, okay. Yeah.

Yeah. Get in the kitchen, you giddy, bitch. He got his, though. He got his, though. his. Bafel you! All right. Ennis is starting to look pretty good, honestly.

Yeah, he beats up his wife multiple times, but also sets Sonny up to be shot 175 times at the toll booth. So fuck that guy. Amityville horror guy, underrated. About to kill his whole family with an axe. Oh, sure. James Burlin, putting him in. He was possessed.

Jeff Daniels, in terms of endearment. Wait. What a fucking piece of shit he was. the Ennis Del Mar class of person. Right. I'm just giving you choices. That's a different tier. Flap. His name was Flap. There's a flap. We haven't done terms of Endearment yet.

I can't wait to kill Flap. Ring my phone. That's another one of the seven movies my wife watches the most. I mean, it's a perfect movie. Get over here and say goodbye to your mama. Give my daughter the shot. Daniel Plainview for worst

worst husband. I guess he's more of a worst dad, but I just wanted to float him out just in, we're just going worse. Wow, you really are

just going straight to the top. Close encounters guy, Roy Neary. We just did this movie. He just abandoned his entire family because he thinks

the elderly are coming. That is your winner. We're not done it. Wait, we're not done. No, because I have this as the Mount Rushmore.

The dad from home alone. Fucking loses his kid. Fuck that guy. Where's Kevin? He's not here? Oh, John heard. Jack Torrance in The Shining.

Oh, man. What am I doing? I got to leave. He tries to kill everyone. Everybody in his family. I'm going to sit here and... He chases his kid in a frozen maze. Yeah, that's your winner.

It's not even close. I got two more. What? De Niro in this boy's life. Oh, God. Poor Ellen Barkin. Okay, go on. What was that guy's name?

I don't remember. Give him with a Daryl? Probably. I mean, that movie ends with them escaping the house and him going, You'll remember me! You'll remember me! And then I think our winner, the Great Santini. All right.

Wow. Duval wins the Oscar for how horrible of a husband and father he was. The whole movie is about him being a fucking nightmare and psychologically destroying his kids. All right. So, yeah, Ennis is starting to look pretty good. And this is like a three out of ten. Yeah. He's fine.

He's just a shitty husband. I mean, if we're doing it the Richter scale way, sure, he's a three out of ten. Yeah. Great. He's a three. Did you have an answer for the Ruffalo Hannah Rubinick Partridge overacting word? I felt like the acting was really good in this. No, I don't have anybody for that.

Okay. Well, you have a flex category. It's the first time since we've had the new format that you've had to do a flex category. What did you have? Could this movie, which I think does not need much improvement? Okay. be improved if one of the characters had a dog. Oh, Ennis could have absolutely had a dog.

Enis, I mean, this is the thing that's going to start. So what kind of dog, Bill? Because I really- Do we have this as a category? Should this character have had a dog? I swear to God, I read that on the list you said me. The Ennisdell-Marr word? Oh, should you name it?

Should you make it a category? Yeah. We're going to name this the Enistel Morrow word. I just feel like. What kind of? a dog. I don't know. I don't know anything about dogs. You're the dog that swims a little bit. I just feel like this is a guy who is so lonely. Yeah. And so estranged from himself. And the only connection that he has,

like, that is meaningful to him has to drive 14 hours to get to him. Yeah. And I just really feel like that guy's life would have been so much better because he had horses. Kate Marr's character was like, I'm right here. He's like, he almost doesn't even want to go to her wedding. Right. He has to sit there and it has to occur to him. You know what, Jack would probably tell me to go to this wedding. Dang, I'm going to go to the wedding.

I think a dog really would help. I really think a dog would help. Probably maybe like a bloodhound. Aren't they? What do they like? I only know them from cartoons. Just they're kind of sad. It's like a dog that would be sad.

Ennis couldn't have a happy dog. That's true. It would be like a hang dog. It would be like a field dog though, like a herd. That's what I'm being. Like a border collie? Border collie, yeah. Border collie's good.

Okay. I can see it. Wesley's right. This is already an award. What is it? Cliff Booth Award. Is this movie better if the main character had a pet? Wow.

I'm really going to see now. But I think that dude. The Cliff Booth. Now I have to add Ennis to it. Add Ennis. Add Ennis. The Cliff Booth. Annis Delmar Award.

All right. We have so many categories now. I forgot. All right. The CR thinks Luke Wilson could have been Harrison Ford Hottest Take Award. Do you have a hottest take for this movie? I have one of. I can carry us if you don't have one.

I don't have one. Okay. I have one. Again, hottest take. I think you can make a case. Heath Ledger had two of the best six or seven acting performances by a male in the 21st century. Six or seven? I think you can make the case.

That's why this is the hottest take. Go on. Make the case. Dark Night broke back. I think if you're doing this list backwards and you're like, all right, I'm making my list of the 12 best actor performances in the 21st century and you just work backwards from it.

Okay. Him and the Joker and Daniel Day Lewis and there will be blood are just automatic. They're one seeds. They don't even play anybody in round one. They just advanced a round two. Great. And then, like here just some I wrote down,

I probably didn't get all of them. Ledger and Brokeback Both guys in the master Casey Affleck and Manchester by the sea Say this again What is what are we What are we doing here?

Best male acting performances The 21st century Okay okay Okay I thought this was limited to Heath Ledger Okay got it, go Denzel and Training Day Mahershal Ali and Moonlight

Javier Bardam And I probably mangled that No Country Fraudman That's Leo and Wolf Wall Street of the Revenant, pick one. D.D.L. and Phantom Thread. J.K. Simmons and Whiplash? Sure. No argument.

And my hot one for this is Daniel Kalu and get out. I think he's fucking incredible in that movie. He's fantastic. He's great. But I'm sure there's like you can put 20 more in there. But the point is, Ledger definitely has one. Yes. And I think you can make a case for Brough, for NS. I'd say too. That's fine. I can live with that.

I mean, but, you know, I'm working on all those people, won or were nominated for Academy Awards, every single one of those performances. Yeah. I am doing a thing. I am compiling the 100, I'm going to do the 100 performances of me ever, never nominated for Oscars.

Oh. Did I tell you about this? No. Yeah. Podcasts or written? I'm going to write it. That sounds great. But I,

so there's a bunch by some of these people who just, They didn't get anything. Did Stephen Seagal make it or no? I'm still compiling the list. So your two cents. Your two cents, your four cents are welcome. Are you doing the 21st century or all time?

No, since 1951, which was on the waterfront. I'm sorry, which is when Streetcar Nand Desire came out. I'm 75 years since Streetcar. Casting what ifs, there's this whole section in the late 90s when people are trying to make this movie. And you won't be surprised to hear that Gus Van Sant was involved. Oh, boy. And wanted to make it with Matt Damon as Ennis.

Oh, no. And Damon, this is an actual quote because he kind of regrets not doing the movie, but also couldn't do the movie. He told Gus, Gus, I did a gay movie, count to Mr. Ripley. Then a cowboy movie, all the pretty horses, I can't follow it up with a gay cowboy movie. Listen, Matt Damon, you can give press conferences all day. You love Bat Damon quotes. He's the best.

They looked at Josh Hartnett, Joaquin Phoenix allegedly, who, although he says, like, nobody ever asked me, I would have done this movie in five seconds. Joaquin Phoenix says that? Yeah. Okay.

Van Sant went to make on milk instead. Movie dies for a couple years. And McMurtry, one of the screenwriters, says, Gus couldn't get Ennis cast. That's what slowed it. Actors' representatives were dissuading them from doing the part.

They called it, career suicide for a straight actor played gay person. Larry McCrery said this? Yeah. And then, ironically, your guy, Joel Schumacher, was attached at one point. I knew it. With Ed Norton. Oh!

Woo! I knew it. This just screams. It's screaming out for the most tasteless director we had for so long to give it the tasteless treatment instead of making a beautiful work of art the way our friend Ang Lee did. So it bounced around. So Joel Schumacher and who?

Ed Norton. So it would have been Ed Norton and Colin Farrell. Edward Norton, my bad. He doesn't like to be called Ed Norton. So if Edward Norton and Joel Schumacher hook up to do this, Colin Farrell is definitely playing something in 2005 for sure. Ed Norton and Colin Farrell. Yep.

That's, I mean, if it's Joel Schumacher doing the, or McConaughey, McConaughey is in there somewhere. Angley met with Mark Walbert for a role. Walberg declined because he was creeped out by the script. Tough day for Boston. We have all been on a journey with this man. Listen, I'm just hoping he's in a good place in 2025. Talk about a man who is carrying around a lot of shit.

Yeah. And I hope he has worked it out. because... He just sold his house to Parasilton. He said yes or no for working it out. He's been telling on himself for years. I'm just... Wow.

Okay. Great. Ledger from the beginning wanted to portray Ennis and not Jack. Oh. That makes sense. That makes sense. And then Lee and Jalenhall, they didn't say what actors were the other ones, but there were some people who were just like,

I'm not doing that. Hathaway got the script. They wanted to read for Alma. And she read it and she's like, I'm Lorraine. I wonder why. I don't know. It's interesting because she, I don't, she's such an interesting person to me because, I mean, I'm a really big Anne Hathaway lover under almost all circumstances.

We've both had stock on, in Hathaway Island for a long time. And I don't even, and as you know. I've had a condo there since 2005. I don't even love Rachel getting married. I know. I think the star of that movie is Rosemary DeWitt. Yeah. She's an untamed with Eric Bona.

Oh, I love her. They're carrying a secret. And there's a murder. Eight episodes. Got to find out what's going to happen. Am I going to watch this? Listen, if people think AI is coming, I think the counter argument would be AI is already here.

Oh, I'm already convinced. And they're like, Yellowstone Park, murder, dead kid. don't go here. This is not what we came to do. But listen, if AI can bring the movies back, then I'm all for it. Because if AI, people are already out of work. I've said this to Craig. If AI can give us another round of Seagall and Van Dam and Stallone, if we can just run that back. No. That's not what I want AI to do. We, we can, we, I just make the, make stuff that I like to watch. I just, all right, just use it as a little, little, um, yeast, little, little, um, little, um, little starter.

You bake your bread with your head. Nobody wants to say it. I'm not surprised. Best that guy, David Harbor. He's got to win, right? Because he wasn't David Harbor until Stranger. He was, he was a full-fledged that guy for a hundred percent. And I saw him, when I saw this movie in 2005, I was like, who is that?

You know him as David Harbor now, right? Yeah. Yeah. Do you like a new setup where I can just turn to you? It's nice. I'm not like behind some blind. I really love it, honestly. Yeah.

It's great. Deon Waiter's a word. We got Randy Quaid. Wow, you guys stem the rose. Although Anna Ferris. Anna Ferris first scene. Ann Hathaway's dad? Oh.

Really bringing it? Who was that actor? Do we even know? I don't know who that actor is. The cabin guy named Randall, Down Low Randall. He's got a cabin. And then...

That's David Harbor, right? David Harbor. And then Linda Cardellini. Oh, yeah. I think she's really good in this movie. By the way, I've always liked her. She's what's not the like? Yeah, I've always...

She brings everything she's got to most of the poor performances that she's assigned to get. I'm a big fan of hers. She is like two good parts short, it felt like over that stretch. She should have gotten an Oscar nomination for Green Book. What?

What did she have gotten her Oscar nomination? Green Book. She's really good in that movie. I hate Green Book. I think it's one of the worst. movies made in the last 50 years. We're going to argue about that at dinner night with my wife because my wife likes Green Book.

Listen, some of my best friends like Green Book, Bill. I've saw for the first time. When? Maybe five weeks ago. What? Yeah. I lied when I came out. I pretended I watched it and I didn't.

I just didn't want to. Bill Simmons, what? Yeah. You pretended to see Green Book? I was like, yeah, I saw it. It was fine. I never saw it. Oh, my God.

So now what's the truth? The movie just ends. Mahersha Hartle shows up for dinner at the end. One of the most depressing scenes I've ever seen in a movie. And they're like, he has nothing else to do in the holiday. And they welcome him in. It's like, whoa, this scene's going to be really good. The whole movie's been building for this.

And it's like, closing credits. They've been friends for their whole life. I know, that, that. And it's like, wait, what? I have to say, though. That was the ending? I just want to be clear about one thing. I want to, I'm not done with this.

Okay. I want to be clear. I loathe this movie. I, to this day, am getting letters from people who are mad at me. I remember your initial stance. Who are mad at me because I, I am really not in the movie. I actually think I did see it in 2018. I just forgot it.

Stands to reason. Although, I don't know how you could forget. I must have seen it. I'm joking about lying. I do think I did see it. I probably was just drinking wine and, forgot it. I don't know what's happening right now.

But listen, the last scene of this terrible movie is actually quite good. Yeah. Because it's the most depressing thing to happen to a black man in a movie in about 35 years. But, and I'm really,

I really mean that, I think. But Mahershullah Ali shows up at their house, their apartment. The racist he's been spending all this time with being driven around the deep south, where more racism happens.

Yeah. And the Vigo Mortensen character is likable because he's not KKK races. Yeah. He's just a stupid Italian racist. He doesn't know any better races. Right. Oops, sorry, I didn't know.

Anyway, Mahershala's lonely has no place else to go, comes to the apartment for Feast of the Seven Fishes, and Linda Cardalini leans over into Marhershala's ear and says, I'm, I can't believe,

I've told y'all, I'm feeling really emotional right now, but like, I know you wrote the letters. what an ending. It's fine. We didn't, because the dinner, they couldn't have sold that dinner because it would have been terrible.

They would have been all kinds of eggplant, like just terrible jokes, terrible jokes. It needed to end where it ended. And the ending is kind of sweet. I know you wrote the letters. I know you wrote the letters. Whoa. Oh, I guess we're,

I guess I'm gonna get up now. Wow. So who wins Dian, who wins Dian waiters? I think Randy Quaid. Okay. I think you're right, actually. I think it's. Andy Quaid.

Recasting Couch Weird did it. Craig has a flex category. You kind of took it. I was going to do the Rick Dalton Award for the best fucking acting I've ever seen in my life. And for our generation with Heath Ledger, we have 10 things I hate about you. We have a Knight's Tale, which is a movie I really like. Oh, yeah, a Night's Tale. Another good movie star performance from Heath Ledger.

Totally. Broke back into... Beloved movie. Broke back into Dark Night. And I think even with some of the best of the best, Leo, Daniel DeLuis, when I'm watching movies with them, I still see Daniel DeLois in Leo DiCaprio. I think Heath Ledger is the only lead where I'm like, I don't see Heath Ledger. Like, The Joker and Brokeback Mountain and Ten Things I Hate About You, which is like a teen romantic comedy.

The fact that he gets away with all three of those characters, and you never once think about any of the other ones, even when you rewatch these movies over and over, I think is so incredibly impressive at his age. I don't think anybody else has done it like that. There's no through line. I mean, it's true that we don't have enough data, really, to create. one. Yeah. But the one of the, like, I don't know, silver linings of the tragedy of his life is that all the characters are these,

they stand individually, discreetly apart from each other. I mean, the next time most people saw Heath Ledger after Brokeback Mountain was as the fucking Joker. Right. And it was like immediately at work. And it was one of the best performances ever. To go from Ennis to the Joker is like one of the most insensitive. Thane jumps and movie roles, I think ever.

It's really crazy. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, in a weird way, I'm always reluctant to give actors credit for acting. For stretching or, like, doing something different from the other thing. But I also think that, I don't know how old, so he was 26. He's 25 and broke back. He's like 21 when he does 10 things I hate about you.

Yeah, he's like 27, 28 is a joker. Because I think the thing that is, that feels impressive now is who, who, who, who's going from that to that, right? Like, who is, whose pendulum can swing that far from one direction to the other direction? The guy who just came to mind is Patinson? Yeah, but there's a little. I still always feel like he's Pattinson. He's, but it's not that thing. And Salome, I always feel like he's Shalemay.

I even feel like Leo is always Leo. fair, but you know what the thing about Wait, can I, well, I don't feel like ledger is always ledger. Well, we're talking about, see, the thing is we're, we've, we've already left the zone of young people. DiCaprio's 50, right? I was about to talk about Denzel. I had to bite my tongue, but in this new Spike Lee movie, he's doing another, this is another Denzel.

I've never seen this Denzel before. It's very subtle, but it's very different. Younger Pacino became different. people in weird ways. But the point, but Craig's point is I don't know. It's very difficult now to imagine given the dearth of material, the scarity catness of the people managing people, the actual lack of talent, I hate to say. Like, I don't know who is capable of first giving the brokeback performance.

And then giving that performance and getting cast as the Joker in Darkland. So you're agreeing with Craig? Yes. I'm just saying we can't have this conversation for very long and still be talking about people under 30 years old. You know what else is a good category? Does Stephen Seagall shitting on himself a word for most unbelievable anecdote from the actual film shoot? This is a real category. Still here.

Michelle Williams requested that our two male leads kiss in front of her to help her get in the right emotional place for her character, Alma. Good for her. She was involved with Ledger in real life. She felt it would help her. She had to goad both men into it as their first attempts were too half-hearted for her liking.

Michelle Williams, ultimate method actor. Wow. Well, I mean, I don't know what Jake Gyllenhaal's preferred mode of acting is, but they definitely seem, Heath Ledger and Michelle Williams

definitely seemed to be, it's funny, the marriage is aligned with the way I think of them as actors. Yeah. And I think Anne Hathaway and Jake Gyllenhaal are a particular kind of actor to me

and Michelle Williams and Heath Ledger are a different kind of actor. So it all kind of makes sense, but good for her. How fastenerate research, how many takes for the tent sex scene? Ooh, God, I was... Do you think Angley wanted it?

I was thinking about how many takes it would take to get it right, or to make Ang Lee happy at least. Well, the answer was 13. Wow. And they used the 13th take. Whoa!

Ledger grew up around horses and learned to speak in Wyoming and Texas accents. Texas accent. Film the movie in Southern Alberta. Oh, good Canada. Doing another great performance as us. Williams sprained her knee in the snow scene. Ledger injured his hand when he punched the wall, and they had a kissing scene,

and Ledger almost broke Jillen Hall's nose. I don't know what scene it was. probably the one Craig hates. Yeah. Utah Jazz owner Larry H. Miller. Oh, no. I remember this. Remove the movies from the theaters.

Oh, man. In Utah. He didn't want it. Didn't have the right family values for Larry. Did he see the movie? He said, no resemblance of traditional family, which he believed is, quote, dangerous. Did he watch the movie? Focus feature says, we'll never send another movie to Utah.

How about that? Good for you. Oh, focus features, by the way. Yeah. Great job at them. Brokeback Mountain. First major film to be released simultaneously on DVD and digital download. Is that significant?

Apparently. For the films where... I have some alternate foreign language titles for Brokeback Mountain. Oh, no. I'm so scared. Don't be scared. We have in French, Italian, in Portuguese, it was titled Les Secrets. they broke back

mountain? No. You guys, what the fuck? No. Or O Segretto de Borough Brokeback Mountain? No.

Come on, survey says. No, why are we doing that? In Canadian French, the translation was memories of Brokeback Mountain.

Okay. Thank you. See, the Canadians. Well, also, they're basically involved. No, you're not going to like

the Spanish titles. Oh, no. in a forbidden terrain and secret in the mountain. Forbidden terrain is like 1999, the 1992 Segal. El Torino Vedado. And then in Hungarian,

these guys usually make the best posters. So let's see what they got. To El Barat's Godagon, Beyond Friendship. Ooh. Kind of a provocative title. It's provocative. Provocative. Beyond Friendship's a good title.

I kind of like it. These, the Hungarians. If Netflix had a show that launched today and it was like beyond friendship, I'd be like, oh, all right, what's this about? I kind of like that. I actually do like that. So Annie Pearl said she regretted, writing the story several years later and said she gets too many fan fiction about alternative plots, people saying, here's what you got wrong, and just a lot of backdoor driving with the backseat driving. Men who were like doing fan thing on her.

Backdoor, backdoor, okay. Yeah. I mean, we should just say just real quick, this short story is a marvel. It is a marvel of concision, brevity, description. Have you read it correct? It's funny.

No, it's great. It's really great. It is a phenomenal. It appeared in the New Yorker, right? Yeah. Depressing if you're a writer. This might make you cry. Yeah.

Uh-oh. I haven't done it yet. I haven't cried yet. Daniel Day Lewis won the Saga Award for There Will Be Blood Indeating. dedicated it to Heath Ledger's memory and said the final scene

in Ennis's trailer was as moving as anything I've ever seen. I remember that. Yeah. I remember that. Keith Ledger told Philadelphia Inquirer that there was a sequence film for the movie where Jack and Ennis helped some hippies get their car out of a river.

And it took three days to shoot and it was terrible and everybody hated it. Yeah, that's not in the story. That's for sure. And then Annie Perel sent Jake and Keith an original autograph copy of her story and wrote to Jake to Jake. And when she did it for Keith Ledger, she accidentally signed it to Ennis and then realized

that it was like a, almost like a Freudian slip. Like he became Ennis to the point that she said, and then she just kept it that way. And she told him, like, I just can't believe you became that character like you did. So here's the book. Wow. What a lady, by the way. The more I read about her, I mean, just one of our great,

writers. Great writer. Apex Mountain. Keith Ledger, I mean, because Dark Night came out, he was, he'd already died. This is the apex, right? This is the apex. It felt like anything was possible with that Memphis movie. Jalenhall, I think it's later. I think it's in that end of watch. What's that movie he made with, it's a good movie with, what's his face, Hugh Jackman? Prisoners. Oh, Prisoners. That's a Bill nerve. It's, It doesn't... I like prison. You like prisoners crime?

I haven't seen it. It's keyed up enough. It's like the... I'm, as you know, I'm really torn about this director. But it's a good use of Jake Gillen Hall and Hugh Jackman and Viola Davis and Terrence Howard. But the movie is nuts.

Not as good as for... And Melissa Leo, I think. Not as good as for Vola Davis's Black Hat being able to be in that classic that we've already done the rewatchfuls. Ang Lee? Would you go here or would you go Life of Pie? For Apex Mountain?

It's probably here, right? Because he makes this and it's like anything's possible. Anything is possible. Like, yeah, I think it's definitely, well, Crouching Tiger, it's probably this. It's this. It's this. Because he comes and makes an, like, well, he's a student of America, though. He's made so many great movies about the United States.

Michelle Williams? No. Definitely not. Traumatized Michelle Williams' wife characters? I think it's Manchester. I think it's Manchester. Pathaway, no. Sheep.

A lot of sheep. Might be the most sheep we've ever had in a movie. No. What's the answer to that then? El Quatro Vultra. Okay. The great Italian movie that is just, it's one of my favorite movies.

And if you loved it, just watch it. Very sheepy, if memory serves. Gay westerns? Oh. Yes. But it did inspire some actual gay cowboy. What was the movie I didn't like with Benedict Cumberbatch much later?

It wasn't a Western. Oh, the Power of the Dog? Yeah, I didn't like that movie. It doesn't really work for me either. That's another one of those Oscar contenders where, like, six years later, you go, wait, what happened? It's kind of how you know the movies change, too. I mean, that's a movie that really spoke to my brain more than it did in anything else. that's all I got for apex mountain.

This will be fun though. Cruise or Hanks? This is a... By the way, you can go any age range for either guy. So for these guys, you would go 20s, Cruz or 20s. This is the tragedy of this movie. Or you can go Cruz as the Randy Quaid character.

You can do whatever you want. But this is why this movie was such a big deal. It's because there's no moment in time. Maybe in the 70s you could have got Pacino and Cazale to do this or something like that. But then, like, what are they doing in Wyoming? I think Buccino and Cazale absolutely would have done this. Pachino fucking made Cruz.

Right, of course. One of the five greatest movies of all time. I don't think that Tom Cruise would have gone near this thing with it, like any era of Tom Cruise. So Tom Cruise is the answer because he could have played Jack Twist. I don't think he would have played Jack Twist. Would not have played Jack. Top Gun Era Tom Cruise. He would be like, my next movie is broke back now.

But the thing about him is he totally could have played a play. Jack Twist. He would have been a really good Jack Twist. He would have been a really good Jack Twist. We could have had a real laugh. There could have been a running scene, though, where, like, one of the sheep gets away and he's just sprinting. Well, there are those moments where Jake Gyllenhaal is really kind of just enjoying

himself being drunk as Jack. Yeah. He gets a little cruisy-ish. Yeah. I mean, I don't know. I feel like... About Scorsese or Spielberg? Probably Spielberg.

I don't know. It's a great question. Spielberg is the obvious answer. Scorsese's Brokeback Mountain would have been just them doing bumps with the beans. Yeah, I don't know. I feel like it would be interesting to see what choices. I love movie director karaoke, right?

Yeah. Like when given the opportunity to inhabit the filmmaking of another great director, what does a great director do? It doesn't happen very often, but every once in a while you get something like Gus Van Sant's remake a psycho or something. I'd be curious to see like Scorsese

try and do a Bergman or a Brooklyn Mountain. What was the one he did in the 90s, Age of Innocence? Yeah. Oh, I mean,

great case to get great. For example, that's good Bill. That's one of my favorite Scorsese's, by the way. What role would Philip Seymour Hoffman have played?

Oh, Randy Quaid's character. Yeah, for sure. That as well. Picky Nits. Well, one of mine was,

could you really eat beans for that many months? we passed up a chance for Tommy How's the peepin? Oh, Randy. Confidence, Randy. Literally peeping on the two guys.

Hey, Jack Twist. How's the peeping? Anyway, go on. How's the peepin? Pickin'its. This is from my wife, who's seen this movie too many times. Anne Hathaway has a newborn

and it drives my wife crazy when babies are in movies, but they're clearly like four months old. And it's just, she wanted me to put that in the pod. She's like, just let's all get better Hollywood with when we have newborn babies in a newborn baby scene. Oh, she's got child labor issues. She's like, don't have the baby be four months old. Oh, interesting.

Okay. Interesting. I hear that character. Alma Jr. We mentioned a lot of the pick of nits already, Jack's mom saying, you come back and see us again we put that invitation

to my back pocket I have more unanswerable questions of picking nits okay can I have a can I have a picking net please hey Ennis maybe use the fishing gear once he didn't know

he just doesn't respect her what are they eating out there it's just such a McDonald's what in the middle of Wyoming they're just stopping are they just eating beans They're probably, I don't know.

Use the fishing gear. Okay, now, wait, hold on. You actually are starting to make some sense. Yeah. This is, well, no, no, no, no. So I have a counter, though. I think Ennis was so dumb about all this stuff. He's so wrapped up in his love.

I heard with him like, oh, I should pretend I fish. He doesn't respect her at all. Yeah. I understand that as like a choice, but man, ridiculous that you would never even open it, use it. He never even saw the note. He never opened it. They went for how many years was he doing this?

He never opened the box. Also, like, yeah. No, I mean, it's, it's, but it's a sign of how wrapped up he is and everything. I will say it's such a great character detail, though, right? Because it's so stupid of him. It's so, he, this Jack Twist, Jack Twist is a great fucking name. Right? Yeah.

Ennis is twisted up in his feelings, his common sense, his decision making, like, but also maybe actually fish and eat the fish. I don't know. But I think Jack was, maybe, maybe Jack was like bringing steaks or, or, something. This raises is a key point, though. I had this on unanswerables, but we could put it in picking nits. What did these guys do for a week if they weren't

fishing unless it was just straight sex for 24 hours a day? Like, they weren't like. Hang out. Going on walks. They're just, yeah. But that's the thing. But you think they fucking fish. You wouldn't need the fishing. What else are they doing? There's no TV.

Are they doing like hikes? You know what I think. You know what I think. But they're like, hey, let's do a hike. I'm sure. Jack Twillette. I'm sure Jack brought the fishing gear. I guess. I think they would have had to have fished.

I would think so. What are they going to do? Jack brought the fishing gear. They used Jacks. They didn't use Ennisysons. Like, maybe Jack was bringing other stuff. But just in the story, the thing that's beautiful about it is the way time passes. And she names all the geological and physical locations that they spend all this time.

Devastating scene. Yeah. Oh my God. You guys went all over. They spent a lot of time together. But, and it's still, when they have that fight, Jake Chillon Hall's character, like, Jack still is like, you think you might be able to get by on too high altitude fucks once or twice a year.

But not me. I need to be fucking a lot more than twice a year at this altitude. Anyway. What's the altitude? Going to Mexico. Do you, do you not last as long at altitude? No. Me personally?

No, like in general. High altitude bucks. Not an issue for me. I didn't know why he pointed out high altitude. It's just a great line. It's just a great line. I didn't know if you like don't last as long at high altitude or if that's a thing. I didn't know why he pointed out.

I mean, if you think about what he's asking. Are you get tired quicker? The only place that Ennis will go is that far. He doesn't want to leave his area. I was trying to. And they're just, it's so secluded. I was trying to think of the funniest thing they were doing to kill time when they were hanging out.

And it's definitely a board game. Yeah, cards. It's like they're playing spades or they're playing Monopoly. I just love that. It's like, God damn, I knew I shouldn't have sold you the oranges. Like, I can't say, oh, you always get me with the oranges, Jack Twist. But I actually love that we are sitting here talking about how these two men spent their non-fucking time. Well, they're there in a week in the middle of nowhere.

I know. But can I just say that the thing that I have not cried yet and I'm not going to, I take it all back. But I think that the thing that is so moving about this movie in so many ways, and the thing that I could not have appreciated as a 29-year-old or whatever, is what love is. And love at some point becomes about so much more than the sex. Yeah. And I think that one of the things...

I tell Craig this all the time. I mean, as marital advice. As a married person to another married person? It's boss, you know, in the HR when we do like our HR reviews. It's well-put. I have to give them some advice. We are. Every year is the same note.

Which is what? It's not all about the sex, Craig. Yeah. There's more. I mean, but truly, honestly, I think that, like, it was so dumb of me. Or, like, I think that the real kind of social genius of this movie and the people who hated it and never saw it, but accused it of being activist. They didn't understand what the activism really was.

The activism is that these men are not shown screwing each other's brains out every 15 minutes. It's that we understand that what is going on on these trips, or at least I watching it as a person in a relationship and in love with somebody right now, is that there is so much more happening in these years than the fucking. And the real radicalism

is that these two men have found a way to live more or less in harmony until, and gets in his feelings and wants to murder. And that we've definitely never seen before. Like, the three of us can sit around and talk about how romantic this movie is. Yeah, especially the other relationships are so bad.

And the other relationships are so bad. Think about this. It's happening in nature, right? Yeah. It's happening in the outdoors, in God's country. It's pretty rare when a movie can pull off when you're upset that the characters didn't end up together. I mean, Casablanca is one of the most famous movies of all time, right?

That's something that's been happening forever. But movies try to, especially like every rom-com tries to do this, every sort of whatever. And it's a hard point in the land. But here's another sub-capable. category for you. Yeah. When the relationship doesn't work out because one of the characters made a stupid choice or made a principal choice that isn't stupid but as principal.

Or in Manchester by the C's case, burn their house down? Whatever. Yeah. That's the worst case theory. But that doesn't count because it's not a love story. But when the love story doesn't work out. Right. Because somebody just can't do it.

Yeah. that is really that's a very tricky and to me really moving way of thinking about love too. You know what's a good version of this weirdly is big.

Oh, interesting. Even though it is not age well. Because because she's talking about that. The kid's about to be 12 again and she's like, hey, give me a call in a couple years.

It's like, whoa, we've talked about it. We've talked about it. rewatchables. But it's like that kind of these two actually might have been soulmates and it just can't work out because, by the way, he's actually 12. I think Elizabeth Perkins would have waited. I think she really would have. She's great in that movie. She sure is. Wait, we have a couple more categories before we go. Is this movie better with Wayne Jenkins, Danny Trao, Doris Burke, Sam Jackson, Nell, Byron Mayo, Tony Romo, Chris Collins were at Daniel Plainview, Long Legs, or Wilford Brimley in the firm?

I mean, can we test- drive Sam Jackson's role in this? As the David Harbor character, perhaps? Not a lot of blacks in this movie. Not a lot, there is zero. Yeah, there's zero blacks. Are you expecting to see some? I'm just trying to figure out how Sam Jackson...

Well, you know, if they were making this movie now, they would find a way to put a black person in it, and I would object. Could Sam Jackson... Unless it was Kanye West, which... Could Sam Jackson be fishing, fishing, like, near these guys? I'm like, what the fuck are those guys doing? That's like Sam Jackson.

Well, what would Doris be doing? Doris. Doris Burke. I want you to watch Jack Twist how he maneuvers these sheep around. There is nobody better. He is in full scale. He knows what his herd is and what the other herd is. And this is just a master class, Wesley.

Oh, nobody cooks beans like Jack Twist. Just one Oscar, who gets it? One of the tougher ones in a while, because it could go, the movie, Heath Ledger, or Ang Lee. And Angley won the Oscar. And Score won the Oscar. I think you'd give it to the movie. I think it goes, I'm down with that.

Is that way you honor everybody? Yes, it's the just thing to do. Probably in answerable questions. At the end, so Jack Twist had kind of moved on to our guy, David Harbor. Yes. Begrudgingly. Begrudgingly. He was never over.

This is a love of your life situation. But also, Jack made it clear, like, I need to twist. Did we need an... Did we need Ennis at the end to be like, he goes up against the shirt and he's like, fuck this guy and just whips it. Why don't you give this to the cabin guy, fucker? It just gets bad.

But you know who didn't come see the parents? Yeah, David Harbor. Didn't often bury the ash, or taking ashes to the brokeback mountain? David Harbor. This is really good stuff here for unanswerable questions.

In 2010, Ian Hathaway gave an interview about this movie and she said she had no idea whether Lorraine told the truth or not in the phone conversation after Jack died.

I love that. It gets better. She shot two takes of the scene. One in which Lorraine knew what was going on and knew about the gay bashing and one in which she had no idea was a terrible accident with a car tire.

Shots from both takes were edited together in the final movie. And she still doesn't know what Ang Lee thought the character knew. And she says, Ang knows the truth in her in his head. It's not poor to me. The ambiguity is what is the strength of the scene and why it's Harper. Can we just... Great stuff by Ang Lee. Ang Lee, man.

Do this one way, do this this way. And I don't know what I want yet. He had two editors on this movie, I believe. And one of whom, one of them passed away. during post-production or at some point during the production of the movie. And I just

I love Anne Hathaway so much as a professional person. Yeah. And I love that she, I love listening to her talk about how she does her job and trade secrets. Yeah, she took shit for really loving

being an actor and being kind of artsy-fartsy about it. But this is how we got where we got, though. But now it's back. People are back in, like Devil Wars Prada 2 is going to make a kajillion dollars. And that's going to be her exclamation point career moment, I think. Which if it's good.

I have mixed feelings about. But either way, I just, enough with, enough with these AAR Piquels. I don't know. This is a sequel I fully support. I want to know what's going on with these characters. Like, does Adrian Grenier of a food truck? He makes a hell of a grilled cheese. So he set up in Boston, L.A.?

Not an Eric Adams, New York. He doesn't. I'm going to leave that alone. What piece of memorabilia would you want or not want from this movie? I mean, I'm just going to be really basic and ask for the shirts. So the shirt sold on eBay in 2006 for $101,000. I have no idea with that worth now. That's it?

This is 2006. I think now that it would be probably, especially the Heath Ledger one. Yeah. Yeah. Coach Finstock Award, Best Life Lesson. Wait, what I can't remember with this category, is it as expressed in the movie or the lesson I've learned about life from the movie?

It's the lesson from the movie. Follow your heart. I was going to say when you're in love, when you're in love. Yeah. Although the movie does have some advice for everybody else. What is it? If you can't fix it, then you've got to stay in it.

If you can't fix it, then you got to stand it. Like, I had, there's a heat, there's an N.S. quote in here when he says, when you got nothing, you don't need nothing. I said, that's pretty good. It would have been a good high school year book quote. That's, I, that defeatism is not working for me. I think Annie Proul's fixing it and staying in it. That's genius and true. What do you have for a double feature choice?

Moonlight. I thought Dark Night to get both sides of ledger. Wow. Interesting. Oh, that's great. I love that. But I like the Moonlight's good, too, though. I like that.

Who won the movie? Has to be Heath Ledger. Tough beat for Angley. I don't know what else he had to do. He would do different takes for Ian Hathaway, set in the scene, put it together. He got a little Academy Award. Yeah, Heath Ledger wins it, though.

Heath Ledger. I think this plus the Joker, he becomes one of the most beloved actors, I think of this century, but also one of the great what-if acting careers. But the interesting thing about him is like the myth of him is really about the things that we've been talking about. It's all the what it's. It's not like his myth. The myth isn't like, is he still alive or the scandal of his death?

I mean, it really is about the work he did not get to do. And that, that to me feels really rare. Craig Horlebeck. First time in the new set with his own camera. I know. This is really exciting stuff. Yeah. It's almost like the offensive coordinator's camera in NFL.

I'm in the booth. Yeah. I feel like I'm doing a testimonial on Love Island. You should wear like a Niners warm-up jacket as your Steeler's O.C. jacket with the headphones on. Yeah. I had not seen this, nor had Liz. We watched it together. What?

I know. Liz is like, like, she loves Jake Gyllenhaal the most. I know. I don't know. I was 10-ish when this came out. I don't know. It's just like, for some reason, ever saw it. We both absolutely loved it. Just a beautiful movie. The end particularly is my favorite part.

The last line of the movie you guys didn't mention, which Liz and I talked about for 20 minutes. Oh, Jack, I swear. Jack, I swear. Beautifully vague and devastating. What a Diane Warren song that turned out not. I thought about putting that in unanswerable questions, but I think it's supposed to be unanswerable, which is the whole point of Jack, I swear. We talked about it. We're like, what does he mean? And it was almost like, it's not even about that. Like, you kind of know exactly what he means, even though the words don't make sense. Yeah.

Well, in the story, there's this great, like, that happens at the very end of the story. Oh, so that's accurate to the short short. Yeah. Annie Prules has this great line of this paragraph that basically, where she says, answering her, he's answering her question, Jack never asked him.

He never asked Jack to swear to anything, but here he was. doing it anyway. It just, like, he was so carried away. I mean, this character is so amazing. The ways in which he's always fighting himself. And then these moments of truth come out and they come out wrong. But that, to me, at the end of the movie, is the one moment where he says an honest thing

that isn't also using his fists or, you know, his forearms to express it. It's one of the best movies of the 21st century. It's also such... Well, I can't believe you haven't seen it. I know. But it makes sense. Like, you were 10... Yeah, I don't know.

When are you going to cue that one up when you're an adult, you know? Yeah, and so I'm so happy that I got to watch it. It's also such a depressing example of the decline in movie going. This movie made $180 million, which now is like $300 million. Yeah. Which is insane. Like, this movie would have to be a TV show now because... Yeah.

Oh, yeah. Movies are not a place where people go to challenge themselves. Like, I can't believe this movie made... double what Crash made in 2005. Crash made 90. This made 180. And the fact that people in America were like willing to go to this movie in 2005 challenge themselves, sit through an adult drama

like this is just so remarkable and would definitely never, ever happen now. Have to be a TV show. It would be probably a really great 10 episodes that would win Emmys, but it wouldn't be a movie. Wouldn't be a movie. Couldn't be a movie. It would definitely, definitely be a 10-episode Apple TV situation.

I do think as good as... as this movie is, the two actors have to be awesome in it for it to get to where it got through. It all has to work. It all has to work. You could say that with a lot of movies, but I think this one in particular, if you even mess up one of the parts, I think the movie gets, the balance gets just fucked up. I also think it's like this intangible thing where the two actors really have to, you have to believe that these two people, the one moment you allow yourself to think about,

this is something other than a story being told and that there was a production and people were on set all the time. You have to believe that these two people, when Ang Lee says cut, these guys are going to walk off and get a cigarette or a beer together or a coffee or, you know, stand in a blanket together.

You have to believe that these two men playing these parts really do love each other. There's an alternate universe where this movie is made with like Ashton Coucher and Orlando Bloom. This is why... It's like... Oh, you mean...

You mean... I'm just saying like... They can't get... 2005 appropriate. Yeah, they can't get anybody else. And it's like, well, it's Ashton Coucher's the name. I'm interested in...

Because in the story, they're not really good-looking men. They're like... They're just men who... Oh. Like, I would... I probably would be attracted to both these guys in Annie Prules' story.

But they're not... They're not getting movie parts in 2005 based on the way she's written them. Right. And, And I think that there is something about a Danny McBride or a Shane Gillis, like more average-looking guys who, I don't, are Jesse Plemons. I mean, we're saying these guys are too old, but like I think there are all kinds of

ways to retell the story. I know it should be more regular guys. We don't have regular looking leads. There's no, this doesn't exist anymore, right? There's no Gene Hackman. So to go, to go that route, you kind of almost have to look an unusual. places. Yeah. And I think, I honestly think that if you, if, if Angley were, like, if the Angley that made Ride with the Devil and Ice Storm and Hulk, if that guy got a hold of those of Danny

McBride and Shane Gillis. Will Ferrell and John C. Riley? I mean, maybe, but there's too much baggage. Yeah, there's too much comedy baggage. The baggage with Shane Gillis and Danny McBride is just, it's just, it just weighs less. You could probably get away with doing the- Oh, that Chinko's on the phone. He's turning this I did down. He didn't like it. He said, no.

Creeped him out. Did he creep about? He officially passed. Oh, all right. Well, that's on him. We'll get Nathan Fielder. Now, Nathan Fielder. That wouldn't work.

We're prepared for anything for him. That wouldn't. Craig Coralbeck, thank you. Chris, thank you. First one in the new set. This is so great, by the way. I had a great time. I forgot we were doing a podcast, like 10 times.

I mean, it's beautiful in here. Wesley Morris, you're back. We're filming another one later. That'll probably run two episodes after this that I'm excited about. Great to see you, as always, my friend. Great to see you. Thanks for having you. You're welcome.

Hey, Mama. Thanks for making all my favorite recipes. Hi, Ma. Thanks for your unfiltered advice. Hi, Mom. Thanks for always being by the phone. Hey, Mom. Happy Mother's Day.

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