The Rewatchables - ‘Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid’ With Bill Simmons, Aaron Sorkin, and Sean Fennessey

Episode Date: September 2, 2019

The Ringer’s Bill Simmons, Sean Fennessey, and screenwriter and director Aaron Sorkin escape to Bolivia after a train heist gone wrong to rewatch the 1969 classic, ‘Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid,’ starring Paul Newman and Robert Redford, and written by William Goldman Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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299. God, are we really doing this? This is really happening? Eyes wide shut! Oh my God. Yeah, we went there. Mally Rubin showed up with a mask and a gown. I mean, we really went for it. If you're not subscribed to Luminary yet, check out two months of access

to their premium content for free. If you sign up at Luminary.com slash Simmons. After that, it's only $799 per month. Luminary. Link slash Simmons. Cancel any time. Terms. Apply. If you ever want to really hear Eyes Watch up broken down. And Lord knows why he wouldn't. I would check that out. All right, coming up. Me, Sean Fantasy, the legend himself, Aaron Sorkin. How did we get this guy? Yeah. We're going to be breaking down. Butch casting the Sundance Kid. The 50th anniversary is coming up in September. That's what's happening right now.

What do you think? Not so good. Can you take the two on the right? Kid, there's something I think I ought to tell you. I never shot anybody before. One hell of a time to tell me. Paul Newman, Robert Redford, and Catherine Ross in Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid, rated PG.

Welcome to the Ratchables. Sean Fantasy is here. Special guest, Aaron Sorkin. How are you? I can't believe you're actually doing this. threw it out there and then you just kind of marinated about it. Anything to be with you?

Anything to talk about the movie we're going to talk about. So I asked you to pick whatever movie you wanted. Sent some suggestions. You blocked them aside like DeKemba Mutumbo and you said, I want to put you casting in the Sundance Kid. That's right. So why was that?

It's one of my favorite films. It's also the 50th anniversary of the movie. It's one of my favorite films written by William Goldman and Bill Goldman, who died just a few months ago. took me under his wing when I got out of college and he saw something in me and turned me into a screenwriter. I also think that Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid is as close to a perfect movie and a perfect screenplay as you can find. Wow.

Yeah. Sean, is this the first modern movie? This movie's 50 years old, but it's still like really rewatchable and I actually could have watched it with my kids and I think it would have kept their attention. It's probably the first postmodern western. Yeah. It is. I think the first postmodern Western. And by the way, you can watch it with your kids and they will have no idea the movie is 50 years old. Yeah. I don't think it was made yesterday. But it was really, first of all, for a Western, there was a lot about it that was incredibly unusual. And Bill writes about Butch and Sundance in his book, Adventures in the Screen Trade, which I would recommend to end you. You don't have to be in the business. I think we both re-read that before this part. Just to refresh. And, you know, he talks about the fact that it's a Western in which the heroes run away, which they don't do in Westerns. They run to Bolivia, which they don't do in Westerns.

But it was also the first modern buddy movie. There had been Bob Hope and Bing Crosby before this and Dean Martin and what the hell is. Jerry Lewis. Jerry Lewis. Thank you. but this was, you know, a buddy action movie that gave birth to a thousand buddy action movies, which are still using the same template that Bill created. So if we go back to the 60s, this is 1969.

This movie was released two days before I was born, which I thought was interesting. September 23rd, 19669. Goldman obviously became, you know, a huge influence on me and then became a friend eventually. It's just, I never knew that it was two days before I was bored. I thought that was crazy. Well, I didn't know that either. The 60s, things are starting to change around the second part of that decade just with movies in general.

And you're slightly older than us, so you can remember this a little better than I can. I just, the movies that I rewatch, it really probably starts around 69. And I don't know what that is, what that says about me. Sean goes backwards way more than I do. But I'm like about 69 and on. And like even Rosemary's baby just feels old to me. I like Cool Hand Luke. There's been a couple, like the hustler.

But for the most part, I like when it gets a little more modern. I think the Godfather, really, to me, is like the first one, the first huge drama that feels like he can still watch it in 2019. This was the first, as you said, postmodern Western. You know, when we do test screenings of movies and you keep a focus group and they fill out cards, and you're interested in how many people check the top two boxes. Top two boxes are, like, would probably recommend and would definitely recommend. Yeah.

And the focus group people tell us that those top two boxes mean the same thing. You don't care if it's the top box or the second to top box. They mean the same thing. And the reason why they give them the two boxes is because people are going to be reluctant to check the top box on a movie. They're going to say, wait a second. Am I saying that this is the best, a movie can be, this is as good as the godfather?

Okay. So you want to give them the option of saying, I love this movie. I'm going to recommend it to my friends, but I'm not putting the pressure on myself to say that this and Citizen King are equal in my eyes. The Godfather, because you just mentioned it,

that's a movie that no one, there's never going to be a movie that's better than the Godfather. A movie might come along, which at least in retrospect, We say, you know, that may have been as good as the godfather. But nothing is going to come along where that's going to put the godfather in the sit. That's right.

And interestingly, Bill was offered the godfather. He was offered that movie to adapt. And he read the book and he said, you know what? This is going to be a great movie and this is going to be a big hit. And I'm going to pass. He just didn't want to have any part of glamorizing mob life. Did you know that? I did know that.

I think I knew that and forgot. Got it. Yeah. And that whole, the process of how Coppola adapted it, too, with Puzo. And I don't know if you've seen The Godfather Journal's. That's also the most fascinating. Yeah, I have the Godfather Journal. It's a great book.

It could get your hand on it. But it's just interesting. Now, look, Bill didn't mind glamorizing to bank robbers and train robbers. But that was his position on the Godfather. The whole buddy thing, you're right. And I realized this as I was rewatching this, and I hadn't watched this movie in a while. And you could see all the seeds for all these. these different things. Then I was doing the research on it. So he focused on Butch Cassie kind of honed

in the late 50s and spends eight years trying to figure out what the screenplay is. Yeah. And over and over again, he's convinced it's the relationship between the two guys. And that's the movie. Forget about the shootouts. And he makes this point in his book, there's actually not a lot of violence in this movie. It's like the key of the movie is actually the back and force between the two guys. So you're saying that had never really just been a movie before. No. Listen, you're going to get email from people, correct me, what about this? I may have forgotten something.

But this movie was a hit. Yeah. Right. It was a box office hit. It was a critical hit. Bill won the Oscar for Best Original Screenplay. He had studied it, studied these guys for a long time at a library, which was the only place you could do research on something in the 60s. That's so funny.

They think about that. Yeah. There were these two, honest to God, outlaws from the turn of the century, it turned to last century. Butch Cassidy was known to be an incredibly charming, charismatic guy who robbed Banks. He was arrested for armed robbery in Wyoming, appears in front of the judge who likes Butch. Everybody liked Butch. Yeah. And the judge says, Butch, if you promise to never rob a bank again, I'll let you go.

go. Okay. And Butch said, judge, I don't want to lie to you. I can't promise I'm never going to rob a bank again, but I'll tell you what. I'll promise I won't rob any banks in Wyoming. And the judge said, okay, go ahead. Can you imagine somebody today, like being in front of a judge for armed robbery of a bank and, you know, making a deal if you just promise not to do it near me again, you can go. That was Butch. And then Sundance was, you know, this incredible shot. And they were together. And yet, he wanted to write about the relationship between these two. But his big overarching theme in the movie is change.

That these were the two last outlaws of their era. The world was changing right under their feet. And that's why they had to run. That's what did them in. And the very first line of the movie sets up that theme. which is in a bank and he's looking around and there are all these new security gadgets, just a safe that has this industrial lock on it and there are bars and their guards everywhere. And he turns to one of the guards and says,

What happened to the old bank? It was beautiful. People kept robbing you. It's a small price to pay for beauty. That's the opening scene. And they talk about change throughout. the movie and changes their enemy. So he says when he writes about this movie that he knew, as he studied Budge, there were two scenes that had to be in the movie.

And one was that Wyoming scene. And the other was a shootout at the end. And he's like, I know I have these two scenes. And he spent years trying to figure out how to put the Wyoming scene in the movie and ultimately decided it actually ruined the structure of the movie to have it in. and he has this whole thing in the book about how you have to cut your babies. You have to cut your daughters. It's the toughest thing when there's something that you know is good. And for the sake of the greater good, for the sake of the whole, you've got to cut it.

He also... Well, wait, what was the toughest one you've had to take out of a movie that just... Or a TV show that absolutely killed you. There have been a lot of tough ones, and I've got to cut things all the time. Either for the greater good or for length. But you don't have like a Wyoming one? If you gave me a few minutes to think about it, I could give you my own by the end of the...

Do you save stuff and then refashion it elsewhere? If there's a line that you cut, will you put it in something else? Yes. As a matter of fact, a screenplay is... A typical screenplay is about 120 or 130 pages. Mine are longer because their dialogue heavy

and dialogue takes up more space on the page and less time on the screen than action, which takes up less space on the page, more time on the screen. So my screenplays are 150, 160 pages charitably. Like, the social network was 181 pages. Molly's game is about 180 pages. My first draft of the American president

was 345 pages. I delivered it in a shopping bag. And the hundreds of pages that got cut from that, made up the first few scenes of the pilot episode of the Westman. Oh, wow. Yeah. That's great. So that's the best example of this.

Yes. That's pretty good. Yes. That came in handy. But getting back to stuff that Bill had in his pocket that he loved, as started writing, he talks about having this secret that he wanted to hold on to for as long as he could in the screenplay. the secret was that the Sundance Kid couldn't swim. Yeah.

And I just couldn't wait to get to those cliffs to write that scene. Who wouldn't want to write that scene? It's fantastic. It's iconic. And in terms of buddy action movie template, that, you know, running to the hill and what they shout as they're jumping off, You can see that ripped off in 50 other movies. Leitha Weapon is, you know, doing all that stuff.

Anyway, change was the big theme. And I'll tell you another first for Butch Cassidy was that Bill wrote readable screenplays. Screenplays aren't meant to be read. They're meant to be performed. but Bill wanted and as a result they read like an instruction manual

they read like a blueprint they're not that exciting to read you have to be used to it but Bill changed all that for the rest of us he wanted the person reading it to you want to be able to approximate as much as possible the experience

you're going to have in a theater by reading the screenplay so for instance when there's a great moment. I'm assuming that spoilers, we don't. Oh, we're still everything. Yeah, it's 50 years old.

Okay. So, Craig, don't listen if you haven't. Did you watch it? All right, he watched. Okay. The scene when we first meet the super posse. Okay, this is going to be what drives the movie. That E.H. Harriman of the Union Pacific Railroad is tired of these guys robbing his trains that

would be delivering payrolls out west. So he puts together a super posse to go after Butch and Sundance, and that's what takes us through the rest of the movie. It was a little like the Golden State Warriors in 2015. Yes, exactly right. Exactly right.

Not sure if they were the white hats, though. Butch and Sundance don't know who they are. Can't figure out who they are. It doesn't know that this is a super posse put together by E.H. Harriman or who's in it. And so Bill gets this great repetition going throughout the movie of who are those guys. Yeah. And so he's got us thinking who are those guys. And you always seem from kind of far away, too.

There's not a lot of close-ups either. There's like a light. There's never a close-up. You're right. Either there, we see their lanterns, but they're thousands of yards away. And by the way, this would be a good moment to mention George Roy Hill, who directed the movie, did it magnificently.

I'm going to get back to the readable screenplay. in a second. But, I mean, let's remember the things that must have been considered lunacy when he said he was going to do it. Like have the swingle singers score the third act of a Western. So that hadn't happened before, I don't think. Not like that. Never had pop music been used to... BJ Thomas. Yeah. He's also got Bert Bachrack and Hal David.

And Hal David. Rangovsky falling on my head. Yeah, BJ Thomas. I'd forgotten what his name was. Yes, that's right. Yeah, he famously thought that this was the end of his career, by the way. Rainerbbsky falling on my head. He thought it was going to be a disaster.

Think again, BJ. Can you name another BJ Thomas song right now? I cannot. So, Butch and Sundance, they've just right. robbed a train, which is sitting there on the tracks. Having used too much dynamite. Yeah. Remember?

So there's cash just flying all over the place. And they're kind of picking up the cash when they see something and hear something off in the distance. And it's another train. What the hell is going? This never happens like two trains on the same track at the same time. And it's another train. I think it's coming from the opposite direction. in fact.

And George Roy Hill, I mean, just takes all of it. It just takes all the time, lets it come to a stop. He gives us shots of... Well, you think it's kind of like ram into the back of the train initially, but then it stops, which makes it even more interesting. Yes. And you think, okay, there's going to...

It's going to have to be a shootout now or something between the whole Butch and Sundance and whoever's on that train. And it comes to a stop, and there's the tense silence of, wondering what's going on there. And then suddenly a tight shot of the smokestack on the train with the steam coming out and the whistle that accompanies the steam.

The boxcar doors slide open and Bill writes in the screenplay, what follows is the longest tracking shot in history. People didn't write things like that in screening plays. But it gets the reader excited. And it gives you as we, now I don't know if it really was the longest tracking shot in history, but George Roy Hill certainly laid what appeared to be several hundred yards of track, at least for the camera to push in on that box car as the horses jump over the camera. Oh, yeah, that's a good point.

And the chase is on. The super posse is after them. And what follows is a good 20 minutes of no. No score, no dialogue. Just these guys trying to, Butch and Sundance trying to lose the super posse over all kinds of terrain that the location scouts had sky. I think they should, do they shoot in Colorado or Utah?

It's both. Yeah, National Park and also in Durango, Colorado, I think. Yeah. They, I'm sure they had more than two horses, but whoever that, you know, playing the two horses. Yeah. I usually have backup animals because they get... One of them is good at this.

Another one is good at this. You need a deep bench of... If you ever see the movie War Horse, which has the best performance by a horse ever in a movie. Really? Yeah. The goat horse performance. Wow. Maybe a new category for us.

Yeah. Hey, man, seriously. I'm sorry to get off But Bush and sign us for a second, but Warhorse. The Spielberg movie. Yeah. There's a scene in Warhorse where Joey, the horse, does... I mean, some incredible things. There's no CG in all at all. Joey the horse.

But I'm pretty sure there were five or six. Movie Animal Hall fame, Joey the Horse. Joey the Horse should get the first lifetime achievement award from the movie Animal Hall fame. Hooch from Turner and Hooch. Yeah, we did the inductees. And I, you know, people make fun of that movie. I say Tom Hanks and a well-trained dog guy, you know. That movie is incredible.

That movie is incredible. It's a fun. Anyone who makes fun of that movie, I want to fight. I agree. It was just Tom Hanks and a dog for an hour and a half. Tom Hanks and a well-trained dog. I'm there. You can see the three Oscars that are coming from how he's doing the St. Bernard.

Also, Turner and Hooch, definitely inspired by Bush Cassie and the Sundance Kid. Affable guy, silent killing. There is no doubt about it. I once read years ago. I don't know how. I think I was sent the screenplay. Do you want to do a rewrite? Yeah.

And it was called Harley Davidson and the Marlborough. Oh, Don Johnson. Oh, yes. Okay, the script that I read was Butch Cassidy and Sundance Kid simply substituting in motorcycles for horses and it was like a search and replace for the character names. And I actually called Bill because there was also language on this podcast. Hell yeah. Okay. I called Bill and I said, listen, there's literally a scene where they run and jump off a cliff and go shit.

And Bill just said, yeah, that happens. He didn't care. So can you tell us what it was like when Adventure's Screen Trade came out and you had somebody actually breaking down not just what the business was like, but also like, here's how I wrote this screenplay, here are the things I learned, here are the tricks I had. Was there anything like that in the early 80s? He includes the, we should say the Butch screenplay in this book. And the latest edition of the book, yes, the screenplay for Bucke Cassidy. Nobody had even thought to do anything like that, right? No, his was the first book that did that.

It came out before I was a writer. It came out while I was still in school. I've read it 20 times since then. You can go to grad school for the price of this book. Okay. It's kind of like the Bible, right, for screenwriters? Like, if you're a screenwriter, you didn't read it. It's almost weird.

Yes, although I recommend it to everybody screenwriters. writer or not because it's so entertaining because he's such an entertaining writer. I mean, it certainly had a huge influence on stuff we did at Grantland and the Ringer, like just how he thought about stardom and how nobody knows anything. Obviously, is the most famous lesson from that, but just how clueless studios are over and over again, and they just have no fucking clue. Well, he, as cherished as the book is now, it did ruffle a lot of feathers when it came out. And I don't know if he didn't care or just adopted the attitude that he didn't care.

But he did a very good job of present. I don't think he can help himself because, like, if you read the season, the thing he did on Broadway, like he just eviscerates everybody in that book. He just doesn't give a shit. He just doesn't give a shit. He just doesn't give a shit. It's exactly as relevant today as it was. Then all you have to do is substitute out numbers.

Somebody had that on Twitter today, actually, about the thing he wrote about how somebody becomes a Broadway critic. Like, it's because you're a complete failure. You've failed at every part of your life. And now you just have to bring everyone else down. And that's why you become a theater critic. And, you know, I feel like, you know, when someone you love passes away, you always have these thoughts.

But I wish I could go back and kind of have bills back on some of these things that he said. Like, when he talks about critics, I would have liked to have said, yeah. You know, what he, listen to him. Let's do this happen with him. This is some good stuff here. Let's go. Can I just say one other thing about screen trade that I like as somebody who's just a complete neophyte when I read it didn't know anything.

Forget about the business about anything that applies to what we do is especially in the Butch section, you know, the big takeaway is about structure. And that's true for everything that you do in your life is you think about how you build something and where it needs to start and where it needs to end. And he's so self-critical of this script that we're talking about 50 years later. You know, he points out the things that he thinks he did wrong in the script. He talks about, yeah, how the dialogue's too snarky. For instance, the opening scene that I quoted, he now regrets because he thinks he started off and two wise ass away. I disagree with him on that. I think it's the perfect opening scene.

You should know just as a reference point that Stephen Sussie. Sondheim thinks that I feel pretty is a bad song, that he did a bad job with that because Maria, a young Puerto Rican immigrant freshly off the boat, would not be able to use an interior rhyme scheme. I feel stunning and entrancing, feel like running and dancing for joy. And I say once you're singing,

those roles kind of go out the window, right? she wouldn't have a 28-piece orchestra with her either. You must have a couple things that you've written that people love that you probably don't like as much as you did when you wrote it. It's not that I don't like it as much. But for instance, the first thing that I wrote was a few good men. Yeah. That is like my high school yearbook picture. It's, I can't look at it.

Really? I have really fond memories of it. And I'm very proud of what we all did together when we did the play and then when we did the movie. But it's the work of a possibly promising young playwright who needs experience. It was my starter play. Yeah. That's great. And my starter movie.

So a couple of things with Goldman. He said he was attracted to this movie because of the F. Scott Fitzgerald line, who he loved. There are no second acts in American lives. He loved the fact that these guys. ran to South America and lived there for eight more years. Then his second act, he just couldn't get over that. So he's attracted to that. He also said, this is stuff he wrote in the book,

that Jack Benny was this huge influence on him that he thought about a lot because he was like, why did people like this guy? He's not like exceptionally funny. He's not like incredibly charismatic. And he realized he wrote, we just enjoyed being with him. No matter where he led us, we want to fall along. and that I ultimately realized had to be the spine for this movie

the relationship between Butch and Sundance which is a weird way to think about it but really, really smart, right? He's like, I just want people to like these two guys and they're going to follow them wherever even if it's to Bolivia. Yeah, and he was, the things that he was talking about

and the things that he was thinking about with Butch and Sundance seem kind of obvious to us today. right, 50 years later. Yeah, but he didn't have anybody's footprints to walk in. It's kind of like today the debt that television owes to Larry Galbart and MASH. Yeah. Because there was no MASH when Larry Gellbart did MASH.

And ever since MASH, you can make a network executive understand that there's going to be both drama and comedy in the same. series in the same episode and the same scene. A couple of... Well, I should follow you. Go ahead. I was just going to mention... No, go ahead. The original title of the movie was the Sundance Kid in Bouchka.

Yeah, yeah, we got that. We're hitting that later. Okay, sorry, you go ahead. He said, first of all, he's paid $400,000 for this movie, which was like a shitload of money back then. But... Twice as much as Richard Zannick was allowed to spend on a script at the time. But it ended up being...

4.50 because at some point they offered him 450 or 400 plus a piece. And he's like I'll take the 450. And he was smaller than the rest of us. By the way, he still ended up really rich. I never saw a check with him ever.

I think he did fine. But it's just kind of funny that he didn't take the points. He did fine. Listen, his second Oscar was for all the president's man. Yep. And the joke in Hollywood is there, there is no net. Okay, whatever your percent of the net, you're promised. And net to the rest of us means how much money came in, minus how much did it cost. Everything that's left is net. And that's usually

a lot of money. But because of Hollywood bookkeeping and the things that they're able to charge to your movie, like the development of every other movie that they didn't make. And marketing and they throw in everything. That there is never a net no matter what. But, for example, a few good men cost $41 million to make. It has made over half a billion dollars worldwide and has not shown a profit yet in spite of the fact that there's, what, $460 million in net. AMC is just giving it like a million dollars right now to show three times. So Bill writes all the president's men, and he has a piece of the net. And sure enough, you know, year after year.

year, Warner Brothers sends him a statement saying that it wasn't an expensive movie to make an extremely profitable movie at the box office. Year after year, Warner Brothers sends him a statement saying, you know, still in the red. There's no profit yet. We're still in the red. After about 14 years, he gets a check for $2,200 that the movie is making a profit. The following year, he gets a notice saying they're back in the red. somehow the cost of cutting him the check.

Knocked back. Unbelievable. We should say, Butch Cassidy made $100 million. It was by far the biggest movie of 1969. And if you adjusted for inflation, it's in the top 30 or so biggest movies of all time. Yeah.

Somehow like of three Avengers movie you're going to make more than that. Meanwhile, it came out and everybody went there. Yeah. I would love to see where it ranks on a list of movies, and really, I'm not trying to be snarky. I just can't think of a more economical way to say this. Where it ranks on a list of movies about humans,

where there are no magical powers involved, no creatures, no outer space, nothing. Also an original story. I also think, like, if you talk about, like, Butch Cassidy, the Godfather, the graduate, some of those movies from, like, 68 to 72, just the amount of people that saw them versus whatever the gross was.

I know. It had to have been like the highest percentage of people. You know, you think about the Avengers, how many human beings actually see the Avengers? What is it, like 10 million people? Well, it's funny because in both cases, I think, with movies like this, you get lots of repeat customers. You get people who see Butch Cassidy

and they're blown away and they have to see it again. And they can't go home and fire up their iPad and watch something on Netflix. This is an event. It is a social experience. That's right. And they also know that the DVD isn't going to be coming out in a few months. It's not going to be available on HBO. They did go back. Yeah, that's true. You had to see it before it got knocked out of the theater by somebody else and then the movie's just gone.

Gone. Unless they show it on network TV. That's right. Which wouldn't happen for a while. One more Goldman thing. He wrote in 1973. Fact, Bouch casting in the Sundance Kid is no question the most popular thing I've ever been connected with. When I die, if the Times gives you an obit, it's going to be because of Butch. So he died in November 16, 2018. And wait. Was the first line of his obit, Bush, or Princess Bright? The New York Times obituary was William Goldman, who won Academy Awards for his screenplays for Bitches and Sonnyance Kid and all the President's men, and who, despite being one of Hollywood's

most successful screenwriters, was an outspoken critic of the movie industry, died on Friday in Manhattan. Oh, Jesus. Well, listen. Yeah. I feel like he would have been mad about some part of that sentence. I'm mad a little bit about it and I'm not sure why. Why is the outspoken critic thing in there? That's weird.

He feels like it did. He feels about critics too. Well, let me say, yes, he was an outspoken critic of the industry, but he was also beloved by everyone in the industry, respected by everyone in the industry. And as far as screenwriters like myself go, there's never been another figure like Bill. Well, who had almost like a tree,

like in sportswear, of the coaching trees. Exactly, right. I'm not the only writer. He took under his wing by any means. Yeah. Yeah. Anyway. You know, everybody from Tony Gilroy to Matt Damon and Ben Affleck

and Scott Frank. He was incredibly, generous for this time. So 90% on Rotten Tomatoes, Sean. I know you care. It's meaningless. Four Oscars, screenplay, cinematography, original score, best song. Can we talk about the Oscars this year for one quick second? Yeah.

So the previous year, Oliver wins Best Picture. And it's the year that 2001's not even nominated. And then this is the year. Butch doesn't win Best Picture. I think Midnight Cowboy wins that year. But almost all the films that are nominated are much more commensurate with where movies are at this time.

This is the year of Easy Rider. The shift is on in a big way and it's on in a public way. Do you think it was because I was born that year? Yeah, it's definitely possible. People knew I was coming. I do. But from G to X, you know, the rating on Oliver to the rating on Midnight Cowboy, it's a radical thing that is happening.

And for a movie like this that I wouldn't say is, it's not really very blue despite jumping off the mountain and saying, oh shit. But there's something in the tone of it that is loose and young. You left at one piece, though. As that's happening, who wins best actor? John Wayne for true grit. That's right. It's like the last old school.

That's right. It was the last gasp of that. And it was the first, it was the, really the beginning, the infancy of the 70s, a wave in Hollywood. That would change everything. Good point. Damn, you said something a second ago that I wanted to at least show my appreciation that you said it. No, I've forgotten. It's okay.

Happens all the time. That's how meaningless it is what I said. It's also a wild bunch year. It's wild bunch. It's Butch and it's true grit. And that's the trifecta of westerns of this year. And they all represent something different about Western movies. It's fascinating.

The reviews of the movie, the early reviews were mostly mediocre. And then it kind of came around. Ebert gave it two and a half out of four stars, said he wasn't a fan of the last hour. The dialogue and the final scenes are the violent bloody ending. I think he's come around a little bit over the... I think so. He famously did a special in the 80s with Siskel in which they both publicly admitted to not liking the movie.

And it was kind of a thing. Yeah. It was kind of a, they stood by their opinions, but it's a very unpopular opinion at this point to not like this movie. Do you guys have movies where the first time you saw it, you didn't like it, and now it's one of your favorite movies? Oh, yeah. I remember leaving the theater with Rounders and being mad because the poker, I was just like, I was too confused by the poker. And I was like, I kind of liked it. but I'm ultimately disappointed.

I wanted that to be better. And then when it was on cable, it became one of my favorite movies ever. I just had this experience with First Man. I saw First Man the first time, didn't get it, didn't like it, watched it a second time, completely understood it and fell in love with it.

I'll watch it a second time. I had that experience with the Big Short. Oh, wow. That's a good one. Watched it. It didn't do anything for me. I don't know why I ended up watching it a second time, but I did.

and from that second time, while I've seen it 20 times now, it's genius. It's an absolute work genius. One other thing that we just said, we're going to do the categories in a second, but I just wanted to set up Newman and Redford really quick, just for the youngers out there.

So Newman is one of the three biggest stars of the 60s and is coming off Cool Hand Luke in 1967, and I think at that point, it's probably him. They said McQueen and John Wayne. Steve McQueen. and John Wayne. I think those are like the big three. Redford is an up-and-comer. He had barefoot in the park in 67. He either lost the graduate to Hoffman or decided he shouldn't do it. There's been mixed history on whether, so he didn't get that, but he was in it. The studio wanted Redford,

Mike Nichols, wanted Hoffman, Nichols-Ga-Nichols-Wa. And then Redford, who's pretty good at well after the fact changing the narrative of what the history was, which he did to our friend Goldman. then now is making it seem like, well, I didn't want that because I knew it wasn't the right part for me. But I don't think he got it. He also turned down Rosemary's baby, but he was at this very early stage of his stardom.

And so you had these two guys, you throw them together, and I guess we're going to have to step on one thing here with the casting what ifs. It wasn't going to be Redford originally. Well, it was going to be Steve McQueen. It was like the fifth choice. They had Paul Newman,

which is how the title of the movie became Butch Cassidy and the Sun. Steve casting what ifs right now. Because we should just go through them in such a big part of the movie. They offered Sundance to Jack Lemon. He turns it down. That was Grading Horse.

That was Gordon's idea, right? Lemon? Felt like he had played too many aspects of that character. Warren Beatty turns it down. He thinks it's too similar to Binding Cloud. Steve McQueen is in. He's going to be Sundance, and the movie's going to be called

The Sundance Kid and Butch Cassidy. Because Steve McQueen's like, I'm a bigger star than Paul Newman. Sorry. Then they have this whole thing where it's like, well, what about the credits. Am I going to be first? There's Paul Newman going to be first.

He ends up leaving the movie because of this. Is this true? It seems like this is true. Yeah, that kind of nonsense happens all the time. First of all, yes, the billing thing, but also the the road not

taken, the parts not taken. You know, you were joking before about Turner and Hooch and we're waiting for Tom Hank's Oscars after that. What we were waiting for was Michael

Keaton to pass on just the wrong role, okay, which was Forrest Gump. You were just, you knew that... Did he really pass on Forrest Gump? Yeah, so did Matthew Broderick. Do you know what we call?

We call that the market correction. Yeah, this is a Wesley Morris term. Somebody gets, somebody who's like, this gets relatively the same level, and at some point it becomes survival of the fittest. So Michael Keaton and Tom Hanks is one of the best ones.

Yeah. They're dead even for like nine years and then Hanks just... And by the way, nothing has made me happier in recent years than the Michael Keaton Renaissance that started with Birdman.

He was a phenomenal actor. Anyway, let's go back to your what-ifs. Well, that's just... The Fox president, Darryl Zanick... Darry Zinnick? Yeah, Zanagner. He said he gave an unusual suggestion.

Half of the Prince of the film would have Newman first. Half of them would have McQueen first. And McQueen's like, fuck that. So he's out and they go get Redford, who was just this handsome guy that nobody really knew. The actor. He was a handsome guy that nobody really knew who was most, if he was known, it was for doing urbane comedy,

like Neil Simon, like Barefoot in the Park. he does butchcasting in the Sundance Kid. Maybe he has a total of 100 words in the entire movie, right? And he becomes a giant star. And like four expressions. Yeah. He's like blank face. I want to be clear.

It's a great performance. No, it really is. He's perfect. For the rest of his career, he would play quiet men. Yeah. Okay. I mean, he managed to play. Bob Woodward as a client. The rest of his career, he would play Man of Few Words.

Yeah. Smart. One of the great all-time close-ups in this movie, two of him, which then becomes like a Redford signature, the 30-second close-up. But in this movie, when we first meet him, it's just camera on him with that sepia tone and just holds and holds and somebody else is talking, but we always see his Redford's face. For the longest time.

I mean, that's an editing room decision and a good one. Well, Goldman says in the book that Newman's people were upset with all the close-ups of Redford, that he had people. And he was just like, I'm doing that they're making this movie. I'm so excited to be there. And there's like bullshit going on like this about Newman's side. Not Newman didn't care because everybody loved Newman. But like his people, like worried Redford was going to steal the movie.

Hey, let's take a break to talk about some of the awesome podcasts on the Ringer podcast network. If you love movies, you'll love the big picture hosted by Sean Fentasy who's on this podcast. He talks to ringer people. He talks to filmmakers. He talks to actors. Breaks down everything going on in Hollywood. If you like the rewatchables, don't forget about the rewatchables,

1999, which comes back this week with eyes wide shut. One of the weirdest movies, not only of 1999, but of my life. Two months of access to Luminary's premium content for free. If you sign up at Luminary.org slash Simmons. After that, it's only $7.99 per month. Luminary.com slash Simmons. Cancel any time.

Terms do apply. and also our old podcast dual threat is now gone because it's been replaced by the Ryan Rissila podcast. That is launching for us officially this month, September. He'll be doing three a week. He is officially working for the ringer. If you love Ryan Rousillo, don't think he won't be afraid to have a midweek movies podcast

or talk to some filmmaker you didn't expect. You can subscribe to the Ryan Roussela podcast or if you had already subscribed to dual threat, don't do anything. Just high-five yourself. So there you go. That's what we have going on. And also the Ringer Dish podcast,

which is my personal favorite because my daughter goes on there once a month and she was on there last week doing the For Real Zee's pod, breaking down teen culture. So you can listen to that one as well. Back to Sean Fantasy, Aaron Soren and myself talking about Bouchcast.

Let's do the categories. First category, most rewatchable scene. I have five, but you feel free to throw on a couple more. This is, so the concept of this is, if you're flipping channels, and you notice the movie's on, and you've seen it a bunch of times, and you go, oh, this scene's coming up, I got to stay for this scene. Okay, can I try guessing what you're a five are?

Yeah, go. Okay. It's going to be the first act fight with the huge guy in the hole-in-the-wall gang. That ends with one kick. That's one of them. Right. going to the third act, trying to rob the bank in Bolivia

and get the Spanish right. I don't have that one, but I'll add it. I like that one. You know what scene I'm talking about it. Yeah, oh, yeah. Okay, it's great. So I had the first Redford scene. First Redford scene, I agree.

Just like, especially when you don't have a lot of history with that guy and the way they use him and the close-ups and the color is different. Like, they do this old 1870s kind of like. It's like, what's going on in this movie? And then it's, they have to so carefully establish, like, don't fuck with this guy, which is a really hard thing to do in a movie. He's not this huge intimidating guy, but everything about how it cares himself in two minutes, I'm convinced, like,

oh, yeah, nobody should fuck with this guy. And then it ends with him shooting six bullets right around this guy without killing him. It's like, oh, yeah, it's right. Instant mythology. It's really good. And the way Newman's internet, Newman knows what's happening the whole time. right before Redford pulls out of the shoot

flying out of the way everything about that is so good so I got that I got Butch kicks the giant leader in the balls in the whole scene which Goldman wrote about in his book like people weren't crazy about that about if you have your hero

John Wayne wouldn't kick somebody in the balls well also right what they were concerned about studio people was Butch and Sundance in that scene they're they're joking around dryly like um uh you know make a bet i would but who'd bet on you

um right uh i know if he kills me kill him uh that kind of thing in studio people want to know why isn't sundance helping him out uh well why isn't sundance saying you know if you want him you got to get through me first it's because sundance knows exactly what's going to happen right now he's not worried at all yeah about but she knows exactly like what's going to happen. So I got that one, the train robbery introduction of the super posse. Yes. You can argue the first train robbery when they just blow up the thing for the first time.

But you've got to understand Mr. E.H. Harriman himself of the Union Pacific Railroad give me this job. And I've got to do my best, don't you see? Your best don't include getting yourself killed. Dynamites ready, butch. Mr. E.A. Harriman and Southmia, the confidence of you. Open the door or that's it. Do you think E.A. Chairman would get himself killed for you?

Woodcock I work from Mr. E. H. Harriman on the Union Pacific Railroad and he entrusted me The poor guy gets Basically almost murdered Yeah that's George Firth who plays it You okay?

Yeah But that second one with the horse posse Yeah Woodcock. Yeah, yeah. That's such a great seven minutes And the way it was shot And then how he explains in the book

That seems fucking awesome The Bolivian Bank scene And then I got the ending. Okay. Those are all good choices. I'll just add to that. Also in Bolivia, he's a great character, actor. I can't remember his name, who played Struther Martin?

No. Strother Martin is going to be the answer in another category. Yes, he's, they're bringing the payroll back up the hill. And this guy's guy, I'm colorful. Right before he got shot. That scene. as well as its sister scene that's coming next, where we find out that Butch has never shot anyone before all the time to tell me.

That scene. There's more, though. I mean, I can't swim. Well, right. I had the waterfall. The waterfall scene, the oblivion banks seen in the ending. And also, I think Bloodsoe, the meeting with Bloodsow or they attempt to enlist in the Army. Yeah.

Yeah. Okay. But that was going to be my answer in another. the category that I know is coming. So I personally, for me, it's down to the train robbery super posse scene and the waterfall scene. And I got to say, the waterfall scene is one of the most rewatchable scenes of all time. All right?

I'll jump first. Nope. Then you jump first. No, I said. What's the matter with you? I can't swim. Why are you crazy? The fall will probably kill you.

The interaction, the I Can't Swim, them jumping, the guys coming in. It's just like everything you want from an action movie scene. Absolutely. So I would go to that. My favorite line reading ever, I can't swim. Can't swim. He's so angry. He's so embarrassed.

It's incredible. And then Newman's reaction is great, too. Yes. What's age the best? The fall will kill you. I just really enjoy a young Redford. I love downhill racer. I love the candidate.

Same year. I like the early Streisian movies when I was like a little, little kid. Those were like the first movies I think I'd ever seen. Downhill Racer comes out a week after this movie. No way. Are you kidding? Yeah. Wow.

It's amazing. Nice run for that. That is amazing. And it's something studios would never do today. Because you don't, you know, when your guy is going on the Tonight Show, you don't want to double up. It is the whole concept of Young Redford has, has, has, Hollywood has been trying to make it happen for 50 years since. You know, and sometimes it's with the wrong people. And then I think Brad Pitt was a really good example.

Like Thelman Louise, people are like Young Redford, here we go. It's on. People get so excited for it. Like the super handsome guy who's mysterious, women want to have sex with them, guys want to hang out with them. It's the hardest thing to find as an actor, right? Sure. Listen, I think, first of all, you know, finding another Redford is going to be very, very hard. Harder still because we're not making nearly as many of the movies, the kinds of movies now, where you would find that person, you're more likely to find that on Netflix.

So you don't think like X-Men 7 is a good reading ground for the next Redford? I don't, which is why, unless I am mistaken, has Redford ever been in? He has been in a Marvel movie. No, I swear. Yeah, he plays, he plays this, I think the Secretary of Defense. in the Marvel universe. It's a very convoluted and strange thing.

There was rumors that the old man and the gun was going to be his last film and then he showed up in the biggest movie the year and end game. He's in it for about one minute. The team made an decent proposal.

Redford is not a shame to take a paycheck every once in a while. You know what's notable though? And you will definitely appreciate this as a writer. His three big, those first three big roles on film are Neil Simon

and William Gold and James Salter. Imagine those being the people who get to write your part. And knowing what his strength is as an actor, too. The sort of the pullback, the quiet. That's amazing. That's so lucky you need to have people who can provide you with that to be a great star. Bill would write another four movies that Redford starred in after this.

Redford turned on him. Jerk. With all the president's men? The whole revisionist history of all that. It was awful. I agree. And then it got completely debunked on the internet. and Redford was made to look like a fool.

I will say this. Nice thing about Redford, though. All the president's been, which we've done a rewatchable design, the scene when he's submitting his copy, and Dustin Hoffman is going over and grabbing it and looking at it, and Redford's watching it, and then he finally confronts him,

is unbelievable Redford. Like that five minutes for him, he's just so good in that. I don't know who else could have done that. I think he's great in the whole movie. Yeah. And he produced the movie. That was his apex mountain.

in case you were wondering. Brilliant movie star. I think so too. Yeah. Another one's age the best. What? Ordinary people's a close second. In terms of Apex Mountain.

But if we're just talking about actors. We're talking about in 1976, he's probably the biggest star in the world. He also has the juice to produce his own movie, get it funded, put himself in it. He's never had more things going for. You are correct. Another thing that's age the best,

widescreen. So this movie had a pretty crappy run on TV in the 70s, 80s, and 90s with the square TVs because it's filmed, it's filmed super wide. Sure. So the super posse scene, that scene now, if you have the right TV and the right transfer and all that stuff, it's fucking gorgeous to watch that. In like, 1982, it's just like they're cutting it. They're moving the picture to kind of match the guys. A movie is beautiful looking. Wide screen is a friend for this movie.

Conrad Hall and Edith Head doing the costumes Conrad Hall shoots it. Edith Head is doing the look. That's powerhouse. That's like maybe the best cinematographer of his generation and maybe the best costume designer of her generation on the same movie.

And again, George Roy Hill, George, Troy, Hill, George, Troy. So quickly, Butchenetta, the whole threesome whole thing is they pull it off and it could have gone wrong in a lot of different ways. But the chemistry that they have

even though they're not dating, and that whole scene with the bicycle scene and just everything about how they're interacting. Yeah, she even said to see everything of what would happen if I'd met you first. It should have gone terribly and it doesn't. It's actually like believable and I'm in. I agree. What do you think of the scene where we meet at a for the first time? I don't think you could do the scene today.

I had that in which age is the worst. Oh, okay. Sorry. I'm going to let you go. That's why you know. That's why you're here. Well, we'll hold that thought. Anything else age the best for you guys?

Well, just about Edda, the thing is, is like the love story is between Bush and Sundance. It's not between her. And so she's a key figure in the story, but even she ultimately recognizes that it's between the two of them. And that's why it never creeps into a kind of weirdness with the story. Where they're fighting over. Yeah. Because they're loyal to each other over any other person. Any other what's age the best?

You love the horses. Yeah, I don't. Not as much as one horse. I like to say I love. Dynamite is something that we just don't see in movies anymore. I know. I agree with that. I just like the old school dynamite hooking it up to a safe, blowing it up.

Just for me, I wouldn't change a word of the dialogue. Yeah. You know, it's perfect. Anything else, Sean? No, I think we've got it. So what stage is the best? I think for me it's the wide screen just because having lived through 30 years of this movie a certain way. And now it's just more fun to watch.

It's aged nicely for me. Okay, I'll agree with you. I do love Redford in this movie. Okay. And I love the Swingle singers. What's age the worst? You mentioned when we meet at a... Yeah, when we meet at a...

It was half a century ago. I'm not blaming anybody. But, you know, we think that there's strangers and that at gunpoint, Redford's making her undress. It seems like it's a date rape scene. It's a problem. You know, today the reaction to that scene would be you are turning the idea of rape into something sexy and that it's a woman's fantasy that a guy do that.

And that scene would never get shot, much less released. I agree. The montages are just kind of weird. And I think I like them, but it also makes it feel like a distinctly 60s, 70s kind of movie. I think that the montage going to New York and then taking the ship to Bolivia, I think it goes on for a while. It does. Yeah. And it's kind of, I just feel like we would do it better now.

If you were going to just say, hey, you can perform surgery on one thing in this movie, I think the montages would be the easiest thing to just kind of move along better and do better. I don't know if this is age the worst, but I'm curious what you guys think about the opening credit sequence and the way that he uses. of sort of silent film style to tell their story, because it got convoluted, right, with what Goldman had originally imagined that would do? Yes. I go back and forth. It's funny.

Every time I watch the movie, I almost forget that actually it doesn't start the way I always think. Yeah. It starts. And I'm never crazy about the opening title sequence, but I am still going to give it an A for they tried something new. Well, you're also talking it's 40 plus years since there were silent movies, so it made a lot more sense of 1969 to start a movie that way than I think it would now.

Right. Now we'd be like, what the fuck is this director doing? Why are we doing it? What Golden's desire to have that be a part of the story where they see a movie of their own lives is interesting, but that's... It doesn't work because we're not there yet. You would never know that, though, watching the movie. Yeah. No, you would never know that.

He was... it was important to Bill that we understand that this, this wasn't taking place like in the old, old days. You know, he had an argument with, with one of the studio executives about Butch's line. I've got vision. The rest of the worlds were in bifocals. The studio executive said,

you know, bifocals kind of modern. And Bill said, these guys were alive when my grandmother was alive. This isn't the way back machine. And I think that that's the silent movie that he wanted to show that there were like that Thomas Edison had invented this thing already. It's like 1900. But you're right. Seeing it at the beginning of the movie doesn't really.

Anything else age the worst for you? No. This is as close to a perfect movie as we may ever do on this show. Yeah. All right. The winner is the day rapes in. A couple more casting what ifs. Natalie Wood considered for the role of at a place.

And then we covered everything else. I think we should talk about Catherine Ross, though. Yeah, of course. Who was in the graduate, which was the biggest movie of the year before. And then was in this movie, which is the biggest movie that year. And she was kind of in pole position for if you need a good-looking actress to be in a movie, she's your number one choice, didn't want it. Wasn't that interested in having that power and basically just toned it back and did some stage

and the moment left. Always worth noting Catherine Ross when she was in the graduate, I think she was, I think Anne Bancroft was only like three or four years older than Captain Ross. Oh yeah, they did a little chicanery with that. Yeah. And Edda in Butch and Sundance doesn't Bill tell us that it's unclear whether Edda was a school teacher or a prostitute? I always thought she was a pride.

Yeah, maybe she was both. He says because of how pretty she was in the photos and how cleanly dressed she was, he believed that she was a schoolteacher. He wanted to believe. So he made her a school teacher. But there's no way to prove that. The historical record's a little fuzzy on the real life out of it. Uh-huh.

It would have been incredibly unusual for a woman that old. And by that old, we're probably talking about 24 or something to be unmarried. Right. So she's, who is the lady in love story? What was her name? Ali McRaw. So Allie McGraw's in there. That's a little market correction action.

But in a weird twist, Catherine Ross allowed the market correction. She probably could have market corrected Ali McGrath because I think she was a better actress. Uh-huh. But she just kind of gave up. And then Ali McGrath kind of took those parts for the next couple years. Are you talking just female stars at this time? Good-looking Burnett who could act. Yeah.

So it's like Mia Farrow, Ellen Burstyn, who are the big actresses. Yeah, Catherine Ross is getting the part overall, though. That's right. I don't know the Catherine Ross story. I don't know why. I did some research on it. It just seemed like she was really difficult and didn't really like being in a lot of movies. My favorite tidbit about her is that she meets Sam Elliott, who has a very, very small role in this movie on this movie.

But then they don't date, and then 15 years later, they reconnect and get married. To their third husband. This is horrible, but I don't remember Sam Elliott. he's he's like one of the he's like a like a card player Oh okay Alright The Dan Waiter's a word for the biggest heat check in the movie Okay

We can either have the giant or we Was that guy a giant or just he seemed like a giant What's his name Harvey? Whatever that guy's name was I thought it was Richard Kiel for a second The guy from the Bond movies But it's not You write the character's name is Harvey

I did think it was the guy from the Bond movies It's not though I don't think he was a giant Although Bill would work with a giant They shot him upwards Oh that's right is a big guy. Yeah.

But as I understand this category, I would give it to Struther Martin? Yeah. Struther Martin. I agree. I love that scene. He's going for it. Also, Strother Martin, I mentioned the three Westerns this year.

Struther Martin appears in all three westerns. Strutherland's in True Grit. He's in the Wild Bunch. He's in this movie. That's pretty amazing. You're going to die. You're going to die. Bloody.

Exactly. Hey, we're taking a quick break to talk about To Kill Mockingbird on Broadway. Oh, gosh. I saw this. I just wanted to tell you. while we're recording. I took my wife and my daughter

and we went on a Saturday night and it was a packed house and it was fucking awesome. Well, thank you very much. This was great. And the thing I loved about it like with a really good play like that is like just how well executed

like everything is. Every single tiny decision is done. There's no fuck-ups at all. It's just like... Anytime I go to a Broadway play, I'm always amazed by how, impeccable everything has to be for the play to work. And that play I thought was impeccably done.

Probably more so if Aaron's written it. Well, no, I think that, thanks very much. And all credit, certainly for what you're talking about, goes to a crew and a cast that show up to play every night. And you cook some ingredients for Jeff Daniels and put an apron on him and let him cook. You get him some pots and pans and let him do it. his thing. Well, his thing's pretty awesome.

I'm glad you liked it. How many things have you done with him? Three. To Kill a Mockingbird, Steve Jobs, in the newsroom. Is this like your guy now? Or do you trade in guys after like seven, eight years for another person? If I work with Jeff another ten times, it won't be enough. Dumb and number three, maybe?

Sure. Get the script for that? Yeah. I'm there. Harry at age 60. Anyway, check that out on Broadway. What was the, it's to killomachemockenberg.com? at To Killamockenbird.com or Tocholomachnbird on Broadway.

I mean, there's no tickets available for like seven years, but you have a chance to go. Yes, but go anyway. It was a big success, though. It was risky for you. Sure. Every time, any time you do a play, you just never know. That's right. And certainly, we never knew it was going to be this.

You said he can't get a ticket. We're sold out for a long time. It was a big hit with the critics. It's a big hit at the box office. and Scott Rood and Saffey. Scott Rood and Saffy. Hard to make that guy happy. I'm safe for another few months.

I can snap his fingers and you lose everything. And he has. But I've had the time of my life doing it. I really have this. There's just nothing like having a play in New York. Well, congrats. It's really good. I really enjoyed it.

Have fast internet research. Body count. Can you guess how many people died in this movie? All right. It was higher than that thought. It's the guys in Bolivia who try to rob them of the payroll, and I think there are five of them. We don't have to go through all that days.

I'm just going to guess. A lot of Army members at the end, too. I mean, several. But we don't see any of them get. They get shot, though, right? No. As soon as they come out of the thing, we hear bullets, what the frame freezes. But before that, the shootout.

You know, when they're defending themselves, when they get shot. I think they're just covering. Just covering? Well, the answer. is 30. 30. Yeah. I don't know

whether that seems high or low. It's more than I would have thought. It seems a little higher than I thought. We should mention in 1979, and I remember this

because I'm old enough, they did Butch and Sundance the early days of prequel. Tom Barringer is Butch Cassidy and William Cat, the greatest American hero is the Sundance kid.

Goldman did not write it who's a producer. Believe it or not, people didn't like it. They did like it. I've never seen it. Yeah. People weren't a fan.

Catherine Ross, did not get along with George Roy Hill in this movie and said any day away from George Roy Hill was a good one. She was scolded and banned from the set for a day because she operated a camera during a scene and George Royale found out. Which Conrad Hall allowed her to do and then Conrad Hall and Catherine Ross shortly after that got married.

And I wonder if that was a significant factor in there. There's some courting. Yes. I didn't know that women are attracted to being allowed to use a camera. I'm going to do that trick for you. Yeah, really helpful. information. Possible.

But I wish I had had years ago. She, uh, they filmed the silent bicycle riding scene sequence. She liked that the most because George Roy Hill, the second unit of the crew and not George Roy Hill handled that scene. So apparently there was some tension. I had no idea that this was going on between Catherine Ross and George Roy Hill. Bolivia scenes were in Mexico and everybody came down with Manizuma's revenge, except for Redford Newman and Catherine Ross, who were smart enough not to drink the water.

I read that they only drank soda and beer. Yeah. the whole time. And Newman said most fun he's ever had making a film. He and Redford drank a ton of beer in Mexico. They became very legitimately close and were buddies and really looked out for each other for the rest of their careers, or at least Newman's career. That's nice to know.

Yeah. You can. I never know when the actors were like, yeah, we were so close in the set. It actually seems like they actually were really close and stayed close. I think that you can, first of all, I think that you get. that sense on screen in both Butch and Sundance and the sting. Redford wanted to do all his own stunts.

Newman was upset that Redford wanted to jump on the train roof and run along the tops of the cars and jump in the end. He actually did that. And Newman didn't want him to do that. He said, I want him as a co-star. He did it. Anyway, this one stunned me. The filmmakers tried to get Bob Dylan

to sing raindrops keep falling on my head. That's Sean's favorite musical artist. Bob Dylan? He declined. I just saw the Rolling Thunder Review documentary that Scorsese did, and I was like, this is the most inspiring thing I've ever seen in my life. It's absolutely amazing. That's a complete aside. Okay, I can't wait to see that.

I understand why they would, why they'd want to go for that. Again, they were trying to, you know, reach their arm across that century divide and just make it feel a contemporary. Bob Dylan in 1969. I mean, that's a pretty nice year to get Bob Dylan. Yeah. They didn't get Bob. Can we talk about the interlude, the musical interlude? Sure.

Because going back, Redford is very honest about how he just thought that that killed the movie the first time you saw it. He thought that that whole sequence was terrible and that they scotched it and it happens sort of at a critical moment in the movie. It's such a part of the cultural fabric of movies at this point. Like when I saw it for the first time, I already knew what that was and what it represented. I had to read about it and the first time I saw it. at the time, it seemed like it was really well received, and that song was a big hit. Do you think that that still works, that point of the movie?

I can see sitting in a screening room, watching an early cut of the film for the first time, being Redford and feeling like, oh, you know, this thing was great, and then they put this bicycle scene in here. This is insane. I can see, like, showing. going up at George Roy Hill's house and beseeching him to cut this scene. Now it's classic and iconic.

I think you can make a case that's the most iconic scene from the movie. I think for people like us, it's the waterfall jump. But I think for broader audiences that Newman done the bicycle doing stunts and that song was like the biggest hit of that whole year. It's been a charity the most. BJ Thomas's people we mentioned were not happy. They thought he ruined his career. Really? So crazy.

This movie motivated David Fincher to become a director. It motivated you to become a screenwriter. Yes. It's weird you guys have them work together. You guys should do something together. You ever thought of working with David Fincher? I did think about working with him when I wrote a movie about the founding of Facebook. What?

What was that movie? Does the social network not happen if this means. movies never made. Yes. Yes. Yes, the social network does not happen. Does that happen with you in Fincher?

It doesn't happen with me in Fincher because I think that I'm a professional typewriter in a guy and Fincher shooting music videos. We talked about the only major conflict with Newman and George Rejo was the Bledso scene. All right. What was that conflict? Newman thought the scene should come at the end of the chase. George Hill was like, no, we're doing it this way.

And they just argued about it every day on the set forever. Newman felt that should be the catalyzing incident that sends them to Bolivia. I see. Wait, we got a rip through. We're behind schedule. Apex Mountain. I say yes for Paul Newman. I think after this movie, he's at the absolute peak of his power is coming off the end of this decade.

and this movie's a massive thing, and I think he can do whatever he wanted. And then Catherine Ross, and I don't think that would be it. Certainly not for Redford. I guess George Roy Hill. I mailed you his IMDB of the next 20 years of films he made.

It's like a murderer, even Funny Farm. I really like, 1988. He had 20 straight years of movies that I loved World Curtin to Garp. I just like that, dude. Yeah. He and Goldman reunite for the Greywall of Pepper, too, which is a great, very underseen movie. Joey Pants Award to that guy in a movie named after Joe Panoliana.

Struther Martin, who was Struther Martin in the 60s, but now I think he's just kind of that guy. Okay, but I might give it to George Firth. So which one is saying? Woodcock. Oh, that's even better on the jury-H. Harriman of the University of the Civil Civil War. Because George Firth is actually, he's a writer. But you see him acting a lot in roles that's a terrible. It's a great that guy name, too.

He's got a great face. Like, if Charles Gruden passes on something, George Firth. We have the Saul Rubenek they knew category for best overacting. So Saul Rubenek and true romance, when he realizes he's been betrayed, he doesn't say, You stab me in the heart! He just goes way over and dials it up. So we like to reward people who dial it up in a movie, but I didn't really feel like anybody overacted in this movie.

I can't think. I'm kind of... Right? Did you feel like that way? I'm trying to think of somebody who could... Scrolling through the movie right now really quickly, and I can't think of anyone who did. I'm going back to the brothel. And remember Sweetface?

Yeah, I just don't see it. But no, he was fine. Yeah. I don't think there's anybody. Pick of knits. I don't have a lot of... By the way, I'm sorry, back at the brothel, Chloris Lechman.

I was just going to say that. Pick of nits, I don't have a lot of nits to pick other than... I didn't talk. totally understand at a, what her endgame was would be my only nitpick.

Like, so did she love Sundance? But she's just the third wheel for these guys. And did she have a thing for Butch? Like, okay, this is a tiny bit unexplored. Perhaps something that doesn't age as well either. But back then,

in 1969, it needed no explanation why a woman would want to be with just follow these days around. Powerful guy, you know. Any other nitpicks for you? You said this was the perfect movie. Well, I find Act 2 to be a little bit weird and long.

And maybe that's just because the conventions of watching movies have changed a lot. And Goldman writes about this. But Act 2 is just a long chase sequence, basically. And almost nothing else happens. And you pointed out there's very little dialogue. And I think that the only thing that happens with older movies is that younger audiences have more difficult time with them because they're paced differently. And rewatching it last night,

I was pretty surprised by how slow act two is, even though it's really important what's happening. I had that too. I didn't want Aaron to get bad at me, but I had that too. Well, go to hell. All right, because I could take you guys into an editing room, okay? Put the reels up and say,

knock yourself out. Take three minutes. I knew he was going to like the pick and hits category. I think if they made this much, movie now, though, the studio would have been like, hey, this is all great, but could we have a scene where there's like a rattlesnake? They have to, like, fight the rattlesnake for like a minute? Just to like, just to add a little juice?

What if Butch had a superpower? There's no question about it. What if a spaceship comes and they calls up Butch quickly? The mock rape, notwithstanding, there is no love scene with Catherine Ross. Yeah, true. That's true. You have a problem with that, too. Yeah.

Best quote. we mentioned the bifocals one boy I got vision the rest of the world where's bifocals every day you get older it's the law I'm over the hill

but it can't happen to you and that's just what I want to hear every day you get older now that's a law that's just a good senior yearbook quote if you're in high school this is no time for bravery I'll let you

I'll go this is no time for bravery I'll let you that's a great one and I'll stitch you when you Catherine says that whole great monologue I'll stitch you when you're wounded

I'll do anything you ask me except one thing I won't watch you die I'll miss that scene if you don't mind So I'll go with you and I won't whine And I'll sew your socks And I'll stitch you when you're wounded And I'll do anything you ask of me Except one thing

I won't watch you die I miss that scene if you don't mind Yeah That's a great moment So it was the last the last line of the movie, which is for a second there, I thought we were in trouble.

You didn't see the fours out there, did you? The fours? No. For a moment I thought we were in trouble. So good. It is great. So it's the first line of the movie. And I can't swim.

I can't swim. The most famous line from me. I love I think we lost them. And then Sundance is like, I don't think so. You know, and he's like, yeah, I don't either. You know, that whole sequence. next time I say, let's go someplace like Bolivia,

let's go someplace like Bolivia. Kid, the next time I say, let's go someplace like Bolivia, let's go someplace like Bolivia. Next time. Next category, only have two left.

Could this be remade as a 10-episode Netflix show? This is an actual category in the pot. Now, it did make me think, like, I would be really instinctively just mad and furious that Netflix was remaking this as a 10-episode. episode Netflix show. And then my next question would be like, who's doing it? And then you might be able to suck me in, is my point. You might be able to. It's been 50 years. Can we remake something every 50 years in some way? It's written by Aaron Sorkin and it's starring Ben Affleck and

Matt Damon. Well, thank you very much. I think its problem would be the movie. I think we'd have a, let's say there was enough material to do, you know, 10 hours on Butch and Sundance. I think people would just be waiting for those movie moments and feeling like that they got diluted somehow. I think the movie's just too big. It's the same problem with The Godfather. It's hard to disassociate yourself from what we already have ingrained in our head to then we do it. Someone will find a way to do it, though.

There is no sanctity in these things. Someone will find a way. Well, they did it. It was Harley-David-Send-Mor-Benzhou. You're talking to somebody who wrote to Kill a Mockenberg. Maybe that's the way to do it, though. You would have to update it and make it like 2019, basically. And I don't know how you would do that.

How in the world, do you? I don't know. Yeah, I don't know. Two hackers. I only have one unanswerable question. So this is the second or last category. Probably unanswerable questions. Who plays these guys now?

This movie never happens. We're just starting from scratch in 2000. I actually feel like it's more fun to just go by the decade, who would have played it each decade. But just right now, 2018, who would be your draft picks? First of all, I don't think that Matt and Ben are a bad idea. I think that would be great. I think that's a 2009 idea because they're younger in 2009.

I think now they're too old. Isn't that good? Maybe. I mean, if it's about the times of changing, chung under our feet, is it not being as young as it used to be? So you're okay with if these two characters were in their late 40s? Well, Bush needs to be a little bit older. I mean, Newman was 13 or 14 years older than Redford, I think.

So it's okay at least for Butch. Sundancey, maybe you want a little bit of like a young gun. So you'd have Damon as Butch and Affleck as Sundance? I got to say, I might go to that movie. Yeah. I would. Or would you have Clooney and Pitt? I would.

Or Pitt, because I think Pitt can play either part. Both of those guys actually really might be too old. They're both in their mid-50s. See, I think that's a good thing. And I'm not just defending people who are my age. I'm just going to say, I'm with two guys in their 50s. I want to feel like they have had a whole life of successfully robbing trains and living the life that they want to live before they're being chased out to South America.

Pit's done Jesse James. We know we can do it. Yeah. young people is tough because a lot of young people Do you want to see Tom Cruise in this movie? What if it was Denzel and his son? By the way, it can be Denzel and his son is a great actor,

but I just think that they have to be closer in age. His son, whose name is not David Washington. Yeah. It's been on this podcast. Yeah, where do you play football? U.S.C. Yeah, I think U.S.A. Receiver?

Mm-hmm. Yeah. I think it was a running back. No, he's a receiver. Did a stint with the Rams, right? Any younger, like, generation after? Okay, fine. Yeah, sure.

Ryan Gosling and... We never mentioned Leo, FYI. Leo is Sundance. It's kind of like in Leo's wheelhouse. See, Leo now I think is Butch and Gosling is Sundance, because there's probably 10 years between those guys, too. Leo's more of a Sundance. Leo's more of a Sundance.

But his age. But only if you're pairing him with Gosling, that was not a problem. Listen, we've named a lot of guys who would be really good in this movie and whose studios would be happy to have. It would have to be somebody truly famous on both parts. I would give anything right now.

If this movie had never been written or made so that it could be. You could have taken it? Yes. You know? Because screenwriters talk all the time about, But it's not just movies you love. It's movies you really wish you'd written.

Right. You know who's a great would be a great butch is Ethan Hawk. Wow. Good time of his career. I think that he would be a really good sundance. No, chatterbox. All the care in the world, not physically imposing. Does not how to shoot a gun, but can talk his way out of any situation.

He's got the wry sense of humor. Also, Ryan Reynolds is butch. Oh, yeah, he would be good, too. Ryan Reynolds. He's a very good act. Last category is who won the movie? This is, we have to do it. really we'd have to do it we'd approach your leg sports somebody has to win them we can't

okay I appreciate it's I believe me I give the speech about soccer to people all the time that a sporting event if they cannot end in a tie there's no shootouts there's no shootouts on the rewatcherables yeah there's actually an answer so and you're going to be not traumatized after I give it to you but I want to see what you think first okay I'm going to say Redford I know what you're going to say you're you're going to say you're you're Because I'm factoring in a lot of things, like what he did to his career. You're going to say Goldman. Oh, I didn't know that was allowed.

Oh, come on. Of course it's Bill. Okay. I think Goldman was a movie. Let me go back. Bill, it wins the movie, hands down. He makes a ton of money for it. It sets up his career.

He becomes the dean of screenwriters. He completely rebuttles what a buddy movie is. By the way, I cannot emphasize enough how much 400,000. thousand dollars in 1969 for a screenplay it's like a hundred million dollars though uh it was yeah he says he only wrote three drafts of this movie too but it took a many years but three drafts and four hundred thousand dollars we i can tell you that um when we count drafts we use our own not totally accurate maybe we're like doing it in base seven you're doing it in 1969 you're working on some crummy typewriter and it's not like you're on a last

laptop, you know, deleting a sentence you just wrote. We're reading it again. You're typing. It's like, this is it. You're typing it. It's done. It's on paper. But of course, Bill, it wins.

I think he does. Yeah, I think, I was actually surprised how easy that was. No argument for it. Because I was going Newman, Redford, Newman, Redford. And I was like, wait a second, Goldman won. Of course. Yeah. No contest.

This was awesome. Thanks for doing this. Thank you so much. Are you going to come back and do it again? I would love to. Yeah. I love this. Yeah.

I love this. Yeah. So thanks a lot for having me. I really appreciate it. Thanks for your kind where it's about to kill a mockingbird. Aaron Sorkin, thank you. Sean Fantasy, thank you. And we'll be back in the rewatchibles.

Some other time. All right, thanks so much to Sean. And thanks to Aaron Sork. And that was great. Thanks to Voodoo, a leading streaming app of the library of over 150,000 titles available to rent or buy. Over 10,000 titles. You can watch for free on their ad,

supported on-demand service, everything from the latest Hollywood Blockbusters to your favorite indie films without subscriptions or contracts. And if you go through our rewatchables library, you'll find a bunch of ones that we've already done long, awesome podcast about on the Voodoo app, including Fatal Traction most recently. Karate Kid, we have not done yet, but that's on there too. A whole bunch of other good ones.

Head to voodoo.com slash rewatchables to sign up and start watching today. VUDU.com slash rewatchables where you can also find John Wick 3 early. You can get in now. You can buy it if you're excited about that. the BS podcast returns on Monday night with Cousin Sal Gets the Lions season 13. Be ready for that one and we will see you down the road in the rewatchables.