The Rewatchables - ‘Cape Fear’ With Bill Simmons, Chris Ryan, and Sean Fennessey

Episode Date: March 28, 2023

The Ringer’s Bill Simmons, Chris Ryan, and Sean Fennessey are as large as God, and he is as small as they after rewatching Martin Scorsese’s ‘Cape Fear,’ starring Robert De Niro, Jessica Lange, and Juliette Lewis. Producer: Craig Horlbeck Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

It's official. One Shining Podcast is back, and I am your host, Tate Frazier. And as March Badness begins, we're covering everything from Selection Sunday all the way to the championship and beyond. We're going to have great guests that are coming through on the show. And look, if you're a friend of the program and you're already subscribed, you don't have to do anything. OSP is back. It's going to be right back in your feed. And if you're not a friend of the program, and this is your first time on the rodeo, then let me tell you this. You need to go to Spotify, Apple, or wherever you get your podcast. and smash subscribe today because the OSP show is back.

This episode is brought to you by Adobe Firefly, the all-in-one creative studio with AI-powered image and video generation. Build for today's creative process, Firefly helps you generate, edit, and experiment fast, because the asks aren't getting smaller. And the timelines? Ooh, yeah, still tight. With all the best creative AI models in one place,

Firefly brings your ideas to life. Learn more at Adobe.com slash Firefly. The playoffs are here, and you can predict the action all the way to the finals with Fandul PREDICTS. Predict the spread, total points,

and even the game winner. Sign up and get a $25 bonus. Offered by Fandual Prediction Markets LLC, a registered futures commission merchant, 18 plus. Bonus is non-witrable and expire seven days after receipt. Trading derivatives involve significant risk and may not be suitable for all investors.

Manage your activity with our consumer protection tool. Restrictions apply. See terms at Fandul.com slash predict slash bonus offer dash terms. The rewatchables is brought to by the Ringer

podcast network where you can find the big picture with Sean Fennacy. You can find the watch with Chris Ryan. Cranking it out. Yeah, man. Succession.

Doing succession on the watch. There's a little prestige TV succession. You're doing precaps. That's right. Whatever I can do to help, man. That's great. I'm just doing my part. I wish Joe L.

And B could say the same. Um, fucker. Coming up, we're going to talk about a controversial movie called Cape Fear by a director named Martin Scorsese that the three of us have discovered. That's next. Come out, come out, wherever you are. Gene Shalot calls Cape Fear one of the most sensational suspense movies ever made. An unremitting portrait of evil raves Roger Ebert. Where are you from?

Four stars from Us magazine. Maybe I'm the big bad. A great monumental work of terror. And Rolling Stone says, Martin Scorsese unleashes a series of shocks to believe you breathless. Robert De Niro, Nick Nolte, Jessica Lang, Cape Fear. Rated R. Now playing at theaters everywhere. All right. Usually we do this in casting what ifs, but it's too pivotal when we have to start the podcast with this.

This was supposed to be a Stephen Spielberg movie, Cape Fear. And it ended up being in one of the great movie trades of all time, where Scorsese gave Spielberg Schindler's list. and Spielberg threw Cape Fear back at Scorsese and there was a pick swap I think in 1995 truly the Halliburton for Sabonis there's a second round pick in there no losers I remember this story because we wrote about this movie a couple years ago

for the ringer it was the first time I had seen that story and I was like wow that's incredible and it really I think turned out to be the right choice for both directors can we agree on that Sean we just start there just wildly just wildly orienting for this movie to open with the Amblin logo. And you're expecting a beautiful, heartwarming story about innocence and childhood. And that is sort of what this movie is about.

But thank goodness Martin Scorsese directed it, because I cannot imagine the Stevens Spielberg version of this movie. Yeah, what does that look like, Chris? I mean, I was trying to imagine the John Williams score for Cape Fear. It's like Max Katie doing sit-ups in jail and Jurassic Park Music's playing. Adam Neiman, when he wrote for the ringer about this, he said, he represented an opportunity for Spielberg to transfer his vision of insatiable predatory villains,

the truncels, the truck and duel, the shark and jaws into a flesh and blood vessel. I kind of like that. With that said, one of the reasons this movie, I think, still resonates 32 years later is because Scorsese went for it a couple

times. Yeah, our favorite sick fuck, Martin Scorsese. He knows how to show us what's really demonic about our souls. It's great. He's a perfect fit for this. seventh Scorsese-Denero movie. It also made a ton of money, which we'll get to later.

It comes out the same year as Silence of the Lambs, which is very strange because Sound So Lambs ends up crushing the Oscars and doing everything. But they're movies that are basically not even cousins, but I would say siblings. A lot of ways, same year. They even have a face biting scene and just a really crazy over-the-top dark villain played by a famous actor. I thought it was weird that the two movies came out within six months of each other. Well, it's a really good example of the talent involved at least from like 20,000 feet up. You're like, man, these guys are way too good to be working on pulp like this.

You know, I love, these are two of my favorite movies of the decade, so it's no shots at either. But like, the Hannibal Lecter story is Thomas Harris. It's a mass market paperback. Like, people were grinding that out and just reading it at the beach and stuff. It was like you get Jonathan Demi and Anthony Hopkins and Jody Foster involved. That's ridiculous. And then this is a remake. Yeah, in Ted Levine.

And then this is a remake of a really good, solid noir movie that Scorsese just superpowers with this crumbling marriage at the center and like all this ambiguity about like the sort of moral rectitude of the protagonist. It's just amazing stuff for what is essentially like a from hell movie. Do your welterweight thing. my Walter White thing? Your welterweight Oh my welterweight Oh it's just it's the Welterweight champ in the 90s

Like you could just watch this movie 10 15 times It's not trying to be something it isn't It's trying to just do the best possible job Of making a scary as shit Fucked Up thriller And I just think that He's throwing so many tricks at us

The whole movie It's never not entertaining It's never not interesting You can't look away All those fun shots All the fun cuts the music, and then two central main performances that are fantastic, and then we'll probably talk about taking or leaving some of the other ones.

But, like, De Niro and Nolte going, like, toe to toe. And Nolte's, like, in Prince of Tides. Like, this is, like, big leading man to Nick Nulte time. You like that Walterway thing? So who's the heavyweight of the 90s? Well, if you want to say it's Goodfellas and then Cape Fear, like, I think of this as, like, the, you know, the aftershot. This is, like, I made my big statement, right? my big critical statement on gangster life, New York,

you know, reminiscence, nostalgia. And now I just want to show you like the other side of my personality, which is I like monster movies. I like noir thrillers. If you listen to interviews of Scorsese over the years, he's always caping for horror movies and for, you know, the kind of like gritty bee stuff. Yeah.

And he never really made a B movie until this movie. And it's pure B movie. It has like really high class movie stars in it. And it's got, you know, a good script. and it's shot by Freddie Francis. Like, it's an amazing film. But it's like really low rent material. And it's also, you know, it's a big Hitchcock homage.

You know, it's the whole thing, the shots that Chris is talking about, the reason that the camera has basically turned like 45 degrees on almost every shot in the movie is because he's just paying homage to one of his favorite filmmakers. And he doesn't usually make movies in his mold. So it's a rare thing. Spielberg actually had more experience making movies like that and paying homage to Hitchcock. Movies like Dool-enger. say more about that.

So it's him just kind of like sending a love letter out to one of his big inspirations. Interestingly enough, so Spielberg tells Scorsese you should do this. This is going to be a hit. It's going to do well. Scorsese does this for Universal as, to your point, a payback for Last Temptation of Christ. And then he does this, like, where he's like kind of on this one for them, one for me. But this kind of represents a little bit of a turning point where I would argue that Scorsese made more Cape fears than Last Temptation.

of Christ's since then, where he's got Shutter Island and bringing out the dead and these movies that are like really entertaining genre blockbusters more than like silence which he makes like once every decade. Yeah, gangs of New York to departed. These are all like genre movies. Yeah. The critics weren't

totally happy. With this one. Well, more like his choice to make it. Right. They were like, you're too good for this. Yeah. It was weird to read. That famous Ebert kicker. Yeah. It's funny because Peter Bart wrote about critics this weekend, how A.O. Scott was leaving the Times and how Tarantino's movie, which is allegedly about a movie critic, and just the role of the critic is basically done in a lot of ways from what we grew up with. This was the time when critics still really carried weight. And them just being disappointed that he made this, I thought was a fascinating piece of it because the movie was really successful. It features an unbelievable De Niro performance. Like, unbelievable. I would already want his five best just for what the material was. And yet,

people seem disappointed. Yeah, I've been thinking about that quite a bit in context of the movie, because one of the reasons why I think this movie in Silence of the Lambs went on to such great success is because you have a generation of people who are growing up through movies of the 80s, and you've got this kind of like mainstream horrorification. Like horror movies become these kind of big franchise movies in the 80s, and Hollywood always tries to kind of class up things that have like a period before that

that are, you know, really celebrated. And in both cases, I'm sure you have this. in your research. But in both cases, Fangoria was not allowed to cover this movie and Silence of of the Lams. They were not allowed on set. They were not allowed to sort of preview these movies because they didn't want to be defined as horror movies. They wanted, like, the studios wanted these movies to be considered thrillers. So they could be classier, you know, so they wouldn't be these low-rent things. But I still think in the critical community, there's this hangover where you look at Scorsesean after he's accomplished so much in the 80s, Raging Bull, King of Comedy,

after hours, you know, all these movies, Last Temptation of Christ's Goodfellas. And then it culminates after Goodfellas in like, one, it's a remake. So that is a kind of like a low rent thing in and of itself. Two, it's really a nasty, gnarly movie. And it also is like, it's more than a noir movie. I mean, it really verges on,

it's like the Katie character is closer to Jason Borges than he is to, you know, any kind of stalker figure you'd see in a movie. So I think that there's just like critics hadn't quite caught up to the fact that Scorsesey, was always this person and always liked making these movies. And so it's odd to see that in the criticism from that time. But you can understand it.

One of the reasons I like that this in silence came out in the same year is, like, I remember we did the silence pot and we were like, was this a horror movie? Was it a thriller? What was it? And it goes back to what you said about the 80s, where the 80s had this certain type of horror movie that we made and everyone trying to rip off Halloween and franchise it and then in the 90s, it was like, okay, how do we go to the next level? And I think a lot of it was because of those two movies.

People taking horror and just making art out of horror. It's what are you making the horror about? What are you scared of? And I think that in the 90s, this is a really broad stroke. Tell me if you think it's too broad. But in the 90s, it was like the horror is the idea that life isn't as good as you think it is or you're not as safe as you think you are. Whereas like in the 80s in those horror, like big franchise horror movies,

it's like this guy jumps out of the lake and fucking cuts your head off. You know, that's the horror. But in this, it's like, oh, no, your marriage isn't safe. your nice house isn't safe, your daughter's too wild, all your legal trappings that you've got won't protect you against this guy who now is smarter than you about your very own profession and all these things.

And it's like the same thing with Pacific Heights, the same thing with single white female. What if this person moves in with you? What if this guy moves in downstairs? A lawful entry. Yeah. Like, yeah, it's just, it's kind of like this idea of picking away

at, I wouldn't say the American dream, but like at middle, upper middle class to rich people's, like, security. The that, that from hell, only in this case, it's the guy I defended who I fucked up things for. The case was bad at me from it. The thing that I thought was just ancient history. Well, I think the other thing that happens in the 90s is

the early 90s to like till scream is arguably the worst time for horror movies of the last 50 years. And one of the reasons for that is these two movies that came along that we're talking about here. But then also and the entire From Hell genre that you guys are talking about, plus serial killers becoming these objects of fascination. You know, there's so many. serial killer movies in the early 90s, you know, kind of culminating in seven, but there's a lot of stuff

during that time. And all that stuff kind of fills in the gaps of what horror was, but it's slightly more elevated, slightly more elegant. And so, like, it makes sense that there would be some criticism about this, but it's kind of perfect. Like, it's kind of,

like, everything is circular, I feel like, with this sort of thing. And I think that we've talked about this without identifying it about a bunch of different movies. We've done it with like Michael Bay movies. We did it with Silence of the lambs. We did it with Die Hard, where I think the people who are really great actors in Hollywood and in the movie making industry at large were like, yeah, I wouldn't mind being something like a lot of people saw. So why don't we put Anthony Hopkins in Silence of Lambs?

And why don't we put Alan Rickman in Die Hard? Why don't we put Sean Connery in Hunt for October? And why don't we put Robert De Niro as a fucking indestructible force of evil? And this movie was very rewatchable for a long time on cable, partly because of the De Niro performance, even though it's a pretty gnarly movie, but so is Sounds of the Lamps. I mean, both had these a couple shock scenes in each movie, right? That became part of, oh my God,

did you go to that movie? Did you see that scene when dot, dot, dot? But I think with De Niro, first of all, this was the seventh time with him in Scorsese, and at this point it started to feel like these guys were just off and running and they were going to make 50 movies together. How many movies did they make after this?

Casino, Irishman, that's it, right? Did they even get to 10? I think that's it. Yeah. So for whatever reason, they went sideways. De Niro has this whole mainstream run from 90 to 93 where just from 90 to 93 he makes Stanley and Iris, Goodfellas, Awakening, Guilty by Suspicion, Backdraft, Cape Fear, Night in the City, Mad Dog and Glory, This Boy's Life, and a Bronx Tale, which he also directed. And then he makes Frankenstein, Casino, and Heat in the next 18 months.

and he's just pumping out three movies the year, this is a guy that we didn't know where he went in the 80s. What's amazing about this is like this is a blueprint that Hank's copies later with like the Catch Me if you can era is he's doing supporting actor roles. Yeah. He's in back draft for like 10 minutes.

He's doing like all sorts of, he's the villain, he's the hero, he's the sweetheart, he's the asshole, he's the supporting actor, he makes a cameo. He's the asshole dad. Kind of reminds me also of like when Nicholson starts doing in terms of Endearman. He's just like playing around

with doing all these different kinds of levels of roles. It dovetails with him starting to direct movies and then also like Tribeca becoming more of a big business for him, you know, and that being a much more of a focus he's starting to produce. He's, you know, building up his real estate portfolio. Like,

he's becoming kind of a famous rich guy more so than an actor. And he's still a great actor, but he's filling in parts and frankly using money to support other aspects of his life. I mean, he's appearing in like the Rocky and Bullwinkle movie eventually, you know, like he's on this whole other trajectory. But at this time,

he was still, De Niro. He was still like, I only do platinum projects. I am the greatest actor of my generation. We've talked about this, another De Niro rewatchables pods, but he always had your attention when he was releasing a movie. This is a different one.

I think I might have even seen Stanley and Iris in the theater just because De Niro was in it. And it took a while. It wasn't until the late 90s where he started to lose our trust because he just started pumping out stuff, where Pacino was the same way. I think the level of commitment at this point in his career is pretty obvious. And you read the stuff about him doing all the research about what Bible verses, he'd be quoting and what he wants tattooed

and working on the accent. It's just like that kind of... What about the Charles Manson thing? I had never read that. The level, like the depth of commitment. He wanted Katie to have the ability to perform Charles Manson like mind trips on his victims. Like really put crazy thought in this. Grew his hair out. The Eliana Douglas scene is that.

Yeah. Grew his hair out, changed his body, which he's done a couple times over his career. Probably couldn't have made this movie five years later. It's like kind of the tail end of when you're a younger adult. He'd do this, but... He is jacked. in this movie. I think he's unbelievable

in this movie. I also think he pulled off the accent. I think he pulled off the accent. That accent could have gone really wrong in a lot of ways. And it just didn't. Didn't it? I liked it. I thought it was really distinct. Cancellor. He changes it up a lot.

It comes and goes, but yeah. Okay, so I love that he basically like wandered into diners in Alabama and was like, can you just talking to this microphone? That's what he said. that he did. Like, he just tried to meet regular people in the South and hear their voice and try to emulate their voice. It's possible that the accent is incredibly accurate.

It's still a lot. You think it's... You're distracted by it. It's a lot. And it makes sense because the movie itself is this genre movie, so it has to be kind of absurd. But here's the thing. If it was really laying it on thick. If it was just him doing that and kind of being absurd and over the top, but nothing else about the movie was absurd, it was like straight.

But it's like, just... Jessica Lane can't keep her fucking hands off her face. Every shot is like a five-second jump cut into a Dutch angle, into a split screen, into Bernard Herman music coming down off the mountainside. And Nick Nolte is like storming around his Sears Hooker and Juliette Lewis is on Mars. Like the whole movie is turned up to 11. It's a frantic nightmare movie, for sure. And his accent is just one more evidence of that.

One of the reasons I like it is because I don't feel like I'm watching De Niro when I watch this movie. I really feel like I'm watching whatever character he created. Whereas De Niro kind of, even in like our beloved heat, I always feel like it's De Niro as Neil. I always try to think about what Mitchum and Peck were like on the set of this movie because they probably did like a day or two each or something like that. But like, I don't, those parts of the movies are so tame compared to the rest. You can see Robert Mitch and be like, you know what, Marty, we're just going to do this in one take.

You're just going to have to get it, man. I got a one o'clock brunch. I got a bottle of Corvo Gold that's got my name on it. Just the idea of De Niro talking to Gregory Peck while in his full max KD gear is kind of disorienting. I just can't picture it. It was a remake of that 62 film, which was based on a novel called The Executioners. Scorsesey's on a little 90s run here of Goodfellas, Cape Fear, Age of Innocence, a casino. Those are the four films he made in a six-year run.

Awesome run. He's the best guy out. We're in the middle of a Nick Nolte comeback here. Another 48-8 hours where he loses a ton of weight. Did he? Yeah. He was more in shape than Eddie Murphy was. Eddie's a little doughy in that one. Does Cape Fair and Prince of Tides and it's like, Nolty's back. It kind of started with downtown Beverly Hills, but early 90s. And then he quickly is making, I love trouble and a bunch of Nolty bombs and the moment is gone. But it was a Noltee Renaissance here for about two years.

I rewatched Prince of Tides during the pandemic. Yeah. I thought it was pretty good. I enjoyed it. It's amazing that he's in these two, movies. I mean, he has a lot of range. More importantly than Nulte. Well, quickly on Nolte, as you know, he played Jack Kates and the movie I've seen the most of my life, for eight-hour hours. Also, going back to the 70s was like the number one.

He was basically the LeBron of A-list actors in the 70s of the hype that was coming, where this is like, this is going to be the guy. He's going to be, he's basically where Kossner was in the late 80s because he had rich man, poor man. He did North Dallas 40s. and it's just like this guy and he just couldn't handle it

and went off the rails. Also, unintentionally Nulte is like when you look at him and there's a couple of people like this in this movie actually some of the supporting actors

where you're just like they don't make actors that look like this anymore. Yeah, or have a voice like that at the same time with the looks. You just scrape this guy off of a leather belt

like I don't even know what this is but like the dudes don't look like this anymore where you're like, are you 38 or 60? But like if you look at his that period in the 90s with him, where he's no longer

the most beautiful man in America, right? He's no longer the North Dallas 40 guy. He kind of sort of has like fumbled it a little bit. You can tell he's starting to drink a little bit and he's having some struggles. But he does Q&A with Sidney Lumet and then another 48 hours, sequel to one of the biggest comedies

of the previous decade. Cape Fear with Scorsese, the Prince of Tides with Barbara Streisand, Lorenzozo's Oil with George Miller. He does a cameo in the player. I'll do anything with Nora Ephron Blue Chips with William Friedkin I love trouble with

Nancy Myers and Charles Shire And Julie Roberts Who was the biggest star in the world at the time And Jefferson and Paris with James Ivory Wow And you'd be like Nick That's an incredible series of choices It just so happens to be arguably the worst movie

Or one of the worst movies From many of those filmmakers So he had great taste And he probably had his pick of projects And just didn't work out And then a year later he's in Mulholland Falls And he looks like he went from 35 to 65 in like 24 hours.

He looks so old and he's gained so much weight. And then all of a sudden he's like craggy old Nicknulty. It's like how Russell Crow, there's some moment with these handsome leading actors when the off the screen life just catches up and there's no going back. Yeah. Russell Crow was like late 2000s. Whatever that, what was that, Body of Lies? One of those movies.

Body of Lies is when he. O-9 range. Kind of like the, like, you realize that maybe he wasn't pretending to be bigger like he was in the insider. But he looks like Dom Deloise now. I mean, it's unbelievable. He's just changed. He's in some movie now.

You wouldn't even know. What's that movie they're running the ads for it? He wouldn't even know it was Russell Crow. And Nick Nolte was in Warrior. The Exorcist movie. The Pope's Exorcist, which I will be seeing on opening night. And Nick Nolte was in Warrior, and he looked like he had drank all the liquor in an entire city for 20 years. More importantly than the Nolty comeback was the Fred Thompson run were on in 1990.

That guy Hall of Famer. His business will get out of hand. Is there any other movie that has Fred Thompson and Joe Don Baker? I just wanted to ask you both that. We should ask Chat, GPT. It's unclear. I'm still not sure if they're the same guy or not. Were they in the same scene being filmed together?

Anytime either one of them is in a scene, I'm like standing and applauding. I'm just like, this is America in the 90s. You can tell that Fred Dalton Thompson is a senator and that Joe Don Baker is like... The guy from Waukintosh. Like in a peep show somewhere. Listen to this. He makes five movies in 1990 and 1991. hunt for Red October

Days of Thunder Die Hard to Necessary Roughness and Cape Fear Just fucking puts his dick on the table He's like Give you that guy Championship belt

What is he like The Dean and Necessary Roughness He's got He's got an unnecessary roughness He's got a great part Yeah Or the AD maybe Yeah I think he's the dean

Great to see him And then we get Gregory Peck We get Robert Mitcham We get Martin Balsam He just brings all of him back From the original And then the star making Performance from Julia Lewis

and she was a real thing in 1991 from this movie. She was a breakout star, big conversation piece. We've seen this happen with young actresses. This is before California, right? It is. Yeah. That's 93. Every once in a while, this will happen

where they just become the talking point. All the stories are about them. She was the new face. And she held her own in this amazing and amazingly weird scene with De Niro that became the talked-about scene and as the years have passed has become a little more uncomfortable.

Scorsese, that was the scene that made him want to do the movie? Yeah. Can we pull this off? Can we get through this scene with the audience not hating us? Was basically how he approached it. I don't know in 2023. It's so confrontational. I mean, we could get to it when we get to it.

Yeah. I actually, I mean, it kind of fits with the movie. Yeah. I mean, I know that it would probably be, it's problematic. I'm probably the scene, but it's fucked up and probably wouldn't happen now. Honestly, so when you asked us if we could do this, that's where my mind went immediately was that scene. And my memory of it was that it was more salacious than it actually is. Now, obviously, De Niro putting his thumb in her mouth and she's a teenager, you're like, this is...

Oh, yeah, this is kisses around the lips. Yeah. Yeah, I guess I think I remembered something even worse or whatever. I think, you know, it's, again, it's honest about Max Katie, who is a fucking monster. I mean, he's like a, you know, a stalking, murdering, raping monster. And that's what he would do in a situation like this, presumably. I remember a guy by the name of Sean Fantasy in this podcast once talking about monstrous behavior, movies that we like. Or like, with the character, is this in character with the character?

It's in character with the character. It's the most effective scene in the movie for making you feel like this guy's a fucking monster. And it's really well acted by her. When we get to casting what ifs, like she essentially beats out a generation of actresses to get this role. The way she plays Danny is crucial to that scene. Because she's trolling her parents for most of this movie. So the idea that she would put herself in this, you know, like, to what extent she understands what's happening before she says it out loud or whatever is just so fascinating to watch. Yeah, she has to balance being, like feeling seduced and feeling scared.

Yeah. She's a classic got chewed up by Hollywood. dated Brad Pitt in California went off the rails in a bunch of different ways, some substance stuff, disappeared from the business, made a comeback,

and now is like having this renaissance on all these different shows. Really good on yellow jackets. And has age really nicely? Just like I always feel like the Juliet-Lewis DNA is in there with the, sometimes these actors

from when we see them when they were teenagers to now, they just seem like different people. She just seems like Julia Lewis still? She also, some actors are really good with the safety off. You know, you want to see them explode.

Like, she's a great explosive performer, natural-born killers. Even in yellow jackets, there's something like a little bit unhinged. Like, she might go off anymore. She's going to pull out a shotgun at any moment. That's a great quality. You know where her dad is? No. I didn't know this until I was doing the research.

Her dad is Jeffrey Lewis. Oh. From my two favorite Clint Eastwood-Ape movies. He was the sidekick in every which way you can and any which way. But, yeah. I didn't know that. do you think um so re-watching this movie obviously like i've seen i saw it fair amount when it came out like around when it came out and through the 90s and then probably didn't watch it again for a while

and then i've seen it in chunks and really watched it a bunch this week and i couldn't believe how much differently i view it now as like a middle-aged person versus being a young person when you're just like man fucking deniro's crazy and this is so exciting and now i just really like was deeply affected by like the portrait of the marriage yeah and And also what it must be like for you guys. I mean, I'm not, I don't have kids. But, like, I wonder whether you're reacting somewhat to the scene because you do have a daughter and you are a parent, you know, and you weren't when you saw this movie in the early 90s. Yeah, it's a good question.

I think the scene is powerful both ways. In this way, I was definitely watching it more from the Nicknulty side. Like, wait, what's, how are you not on this with your daughter? Like, wait, if she'd come back from, oh, yeah, I ran into Max Katie at the playhouse and. you know, and he gave me a joint. I'd be like, wait, what? We're flying to, I don't know, Australia. We're getting the fuck out of here.

Yeah. It made me way more protective of her than probably when I saw it 30 years ago. I think there's a really good reading of this movie that Max, Katie, isn't real. You know, that he's just this projection of every family's worst nightmare, you know, that a guy comes into the world and everything he does terrorizes you or, you know, your child or your spouse, but none of it is illegal. Well, there's also the whole underlying idea that he's somehow testing them and bringing them closer together in this biblical way. And that, like, you only, like, even Jessica Lang's character says at one point where she's

like, this will either show us how strong we are or how weak we are when they're driving, I think when they're driving to Cape Fear. And it's just like, I found that incredibly effective. Like, it's really amazing. They're like, because that's not what the original movie is. The original movie is Gregory Peck is like a stand-up dude who happens upon Max Cady assaulting someone and stops him and identifies him and then gets terrorized by Mitchum or whatever. This is way more like, oh, you buried this evidence and the moral ethical complications. That's what Corsese wanted, the fucked up family part of this.

Yeah, I look at it this way. Silence of the Lambs, which is just as fucked up of a movie where Lecter probably does more worse stuff. the max katy he's a cannibal so that makes it seem more yeah it's a 10-9 round i mean katy gets some blows in but i think lector wins it um i would love to just see those two dudes just debate philosophy for a while yeah that'd be amazing salacious 17th century the stuff katy does this movie is so much more disturbing because it feels like it could happen

to you silence of lambs he always feels like a movie it's like this crazy fucking movie and we're going down to the basement and Miggs is throwing his comment people and it's just like we're definitely in a movie. This is like, holy shit. Why did you just look at Sean? I think of get a Miggs joke off.

I was looking to see if he had a reaction. I have nothing to say about Miggs. You know what I'm here for it? You know what I'm supporting you? Did we get Miggs the Dion Waders Award? I can't even remember. Yeah, of course we did. Should Miggs have his own category?

Yeah. It made me. Let's take a break. I want to talk about the Oscars with this movie. This episode is brought to by Pure Michigan. In Grand Rapids, every moment feels like a scene worth replaying, every riverside stroll, every slow afternoon sipping small batch bruise, every guitar riff drifting out of the city's brand new amphitheater. This is a place where everything feels cinematic. Like you've stepped into a highlight reel that's yours to explore.

Ranked as the number one city on the rise from LinkedIn, Grand Rapids invites you to find a rhythm all your own, season after season in Pure Michigan. Find your season at experience gr.com. This episode is brought to you by McDonald's. Right now at McDonald's, you can get great deals all day with McValue. Jumpstart your day with the under $3 menu featuring a sausage McMuffin for just $1.50 or grab the perfect lunch with the McDouble for just $2.50. Honestly, nothing pairs with a movie marathon like a McDouble in hand. Get even more of that. with McValue, only McDonald's. Bada, blah, blah, blah,

limited time only. Prices and participation may vary. Prices may be higher for delivery. All right, so the Oscars, no best picture. Prince of Tides got nominated. This is a great year, Bill. This is an awesome year.

Sons of Lambs, Beating the Bees, Bugsy, J.F.K. and the Prince of Tides. We've already litigated how bad the bugsy thing was. It just don't understand that one. It should be boys in the hood in that spot. Right. director Scorsese doesn't get it. De Niro does get it.

Loses to Hopkins. Juliet Lewis got Best Supporting Actress, which I'd forgotten, which I think speaks to how important that performance was and how much buzz she got from that. She lost to Mercedes Rural and the Fisher King. He was really good in that movie. But she's in with Diane Ladd, Kate Nelligan, Jessica Tandy. Mercedes, like, real-ass actresses.

Yeah. And then young Juliette Lewis. Now, we can't tell if she was 17 or 18 when she filmed that scene. I think she says she was 18. I don't know how much better makes it or doesn't make it. But it does seem like she was 18. But when the movie was really, she was 18. And it seemed like it was the start of a major career.

Did Miggs get nominated this year? Miggs. I looked. I didn't see Miggs. I mean, the big tragedy was Ted Levine. There is no best spooge-tossing category. I think Miggs was nominated. MTV had awards.

The MTV movie awards had a spooge toss. Yeah. They still have that category, I think. I did right. Yeah. But, yeah, no Ted Levine was tough. They did. The Academy is usually pretty good at recognizing young actresses, less so young actors. The thing with me this year is that there's just a lot of category fraud going around.

Like, Robert De Niro was the leading actor of this movie? I'm not so sure that's the case. Right. If you put him in supporting actor. Yeah. But Noltee was nominated for Prince of Tides. Right. So, you know, that's not, to me, it's more like he's supporting actor.

And if you put him in supporting actor, he might even win in supporting actor. It's a Jack Palance year. And, you know, that was a real, it's time kind of thing for Palance. De Niro, well, he's in the movie way more than Hopkins was in silence. We talked about this when we did the sound. He was in the movie for 16 minutes or 18 minutes, something like that. So if you're probably doing this correctly, he wins for best actor and then Hopkins wins for best supporting actor. but that's how Great Hopkins was in that movie.

This movie, $35 million budget, made $182.3 million. You love to see it. It was a massive movie. It's great. Did you see this in theaters? Oh, yeah. Oh, this was on all the time.

And not only a big theater movie, but then after, it just was on constantly, and it was on the TBST and T circles. Is this a summer movie? No, it was a November movie. Oh, yeah, November. So Silence had come out because Silence came out at the start of that year,

and then like seven, eight months. passed and then this movie came out. You know how someone like me became familiar with this movie, right? Why? Just one of the most famous Simpsons episodes of all time. Right. I mean, that, I don't think I'd seen it

until after I saw that episode of The Simpsons, which was this big homage to the movie, and he watched the movie, and you're like, wow, the Simpsons literally just copied this movie, beat for beat, I guess lovingly, but that's a, it's fascinating. I was really into movies at this point. This was 91.

I was a senior in college when this came out. And Scorsay's in, De Niro doing something together at that point meant something to me. I don't know if it would have meant something four years before, but this was like, wow, these guys are, you know, Goodfellows was such an amazing, rollicking ride in the theater. So great. Immediately became culturally relevant. Like in my group of friends, just in general.

And then to have this come out a year later, it was a thing. And also like, oh, man, I heard he pushed the envelope in this. I heard there's some shit that goes on in this movie. So there was like a danger element to it that, uh, that I think this had. But, like, when you saw it, do you remember, because I remember seeing it and just being super uncomfortable. You know what I mean?

Oh, yeah. There's not a lot of, like, even the end of the film, I wouldn't describe as, like, feel good, you know? It's like, they survive, but it's not, it's not like a real way. The Julie Lewis playhouse scene in the theater. Now, I don't remember exactly what was going on in the theater, but just it was the type of scene, when you don't know what's going to happen

and you're in a crowded theater with everybody and nobody knows what's going to happen. Where are we going with this? And there's like two minutes there where everybody, nobody's breathing. People are like, what's happening? That scene is excruciating. It's excruciating. It's so, like, almost 10 minutes.

The setup is so good too, right? Just two cameras, one on him, one on her. They're just cutting back and forth between his face and her face, his face and her face. It's amazing. Our guy, Raj, three stars. He said it was impressive movie making. Said it showed Scorsese as a master of traditional Hollywood genre. but I look at this $35 million movie

with big stars special effects and production values I wonder whether it represents a good omen from the finest director now at work your thoughts on that Sean I completely disagree with the kicker but I generally agree with his take on the movie this to me is like not in the Hall of Fame of Scorsese movies

I think it's really cool and an interesting it's him playing dress up you know it's him taking other people's and applying his skills to it. And it's not the kind of like pure invention that I think some of his best work has. I do like it.

I like watching it. But I'm on the side of I like when directors do that. Yeah. And I kind of wish they did it more often. We were talking about some of the great directors from the last 10 years who barely make movies. And it's like I kind of would like if Damien Chazel just like, I'm just spend nine months making a remake of something

and putting my touch on it. I will never complain about it. To me, there's nothing wrong with it. It's just this is Martin Scorsesey. He's done better work. Like, that's just broadly how I feel. I think there's probably a little bit of coming off of Last Temptation and Goodfellas. Like, people are like, this is our Ingmar Bergman or this is our Fellini.

Like, this is the greatest artistic American director that we've got. And now he's making a B movie, you know, and it's like, uh, you know, like, there's like a slight disappointment from that. But down with like the, you know, benefit of time past, you can kind of go back and be like, man, there's a lot really amazing stuff in this movie. Yeah, I wouldn't have ever said to him, don't you dare make that movie. It's more just when you put it in the context of his entire career. It's good. It's a good movie. Raj says it's a Scorsese touch on a genre piece rather than a film torn out of the director's soul.

Yeah. Most directors would distinguish themselves by making a film this good from the man who made taxi driver, raging bulls after hours and good fellows. I think it's... This is not an advance. It's definitely thematically consistent, though, with all of his stuff, which is like the disillusion. of faith and family in the American story. That's like his whole thing across 50 years of movies. He's most interested

in that. Like where spirituality dies and evil underneath man's soul like rises. So it's not like it's out of character or something. It's just not taxi driver. It's not good fellas. Like that's a really high bar. And you can do that. You can watch Shutter Island and be like

I can see why this is like very much a Martin Scorsese movie and I can also see why this was like a really good business decision for Martin Scorsese. to make this. It's a for hire job, right? That's one of the key differences. Like when we did re-watchables 99?

Yeah. And look at the great work we made out of that. CR was Max Katie on every pod. Most re-watchable scene. I really like the opening scene when Katie just leaves prison with all the tattoos. And they're like, you're going to bring your books? I already read them.

And he just walks toward the car. And Scorsese does the thing where Dornero just basically walks into the camera. Yeah. Any people coming for you, Katie? What about your books? All ready to rent them. It's just a really cool 90 seconds.

I'm going to do that next time I move. Already read them. That's your energy going into record book of basketball 2.0. Yeah. You're like, I don't need any reference text here. I got it all. I like when Max steals Sam's keys. Yeah.

Mm-hmm. I like Max and Sam's second scene. I learned to read during my stretch. First, spot goes through the farm. They're runaway bunny. Then law books mostly. Did you know that after I discharged you, I acted as my own attorney? Applied several times from the pill.

No, I didn't know that. I learned to read during my stretch. When he's in the car. Yeah. And he's like, maybe we could... Because we already heard Sam's already laid out. No, this fucking guy can't read. He doesn't know I fucked up his case.

I learned to read during my scratch. You ever been a woman? You've been some fat hillbillies' wet dream? Come on, CR. Your career was just all leading up to this to be and asked that question, my bill. Katie's seeing Sam's wife on the front lawn, Jessica Lang, who we haven't talked about yet.

I know she's going to come up in at least one category. It's like, is she kind of semi-attracted to him? what's going on here? Is she this horny? That even like the fucking town psycho who's tormenting her family, she's like, eh? She's more confrontational. Like, Nulti is trying to buy him off, and she's just like, why don't you just come out and say what you want?

Nice house. Yeah, it is a nice house. You're satisfied now? You've seen it? Or is there more? Huh? Is that it? Oh, there is going to be more. Isn't there, Mr. Katie, huh? You won't stop until you're happy. How can I be happy, Lee, when you're not happy?

You don't know anything about me. I know what I see, man. Yeah? Mm-hmm. Nulti's already transgressed against her, too, so she's kind of looking for little revenge wherever she can find it, too. You know, she's open for business.

Katie calling Danielle while hanging upside down. Well, you know Daniel, all that negativity. What do you mean? The kind of teacher thinks are very personally interested in his kids. And don't mind me if I tell you, everything you're going through, it's okay, go with it. The awkwardness you feel, say when you walk down the street, some leering fools making fun of your sexuality,

the turmoil you feel extra bad when that particular time when that comes around, the anger that you feel, your mom and dad won't let you just grow up and be yourself, be a woman. Go with it, don't suppress or deny it. Use it in your life and your work. Yeah, it's just the classic weird, Scorsese. That's how I do. Philly special, actually. Just to add the degree of different.

You pre-write that one? No. Good for you. That's why he's the best. CR. The playhouse scene, Scorsese said it was a scene that made me make the movie.

I realized if I could pull out that scene with the actors and the writer, it would be great. Juliette Lewis said to Entertainment Tonight in 1991. When the scene was over, it was like I had to come down. I just went straight to dinner and said, God, that was fun.

I'm going to give her the Tom Seismore action is the Juice Award for Best To To Toe Moment for a non-star. Yeah. She wasn't a star at the point. It's a really tough scene. It's a really memorable scene, and it's probably the most riveting scene in this movie, even though there's a lot of stuff going on that isn't great.

It's even scarier than the scene in which Max Katie rapes a woman who's handcuffed and bites her cheek off. And this scene is scarier than that. Yeah. The reason I wanted to do this podcast was because I was flipping channels and saw the scene when Max Katie fended off three hitman. The bike chain fight. That seems awesome. Counselor! Counselor!

Counselor! You're out there? Counselor? Counselor. Could you be there? Could you be there? Counselor? I love nothing more than when somebody gets jumped by multiple people in a movie and then fights them off.

Isn't this one he's like, I can out philosophize you? I'm as large as God. He is as small as I. How can I learn you? How can I read you? I can out thank you, and I can out philosophize you, and I'm going to outlast you. You thank a couple of whacks to my good old boy, Gus going to get me down. It's going to take a hell of a lot more than that, Counsel, to prove your better may.

I'm like God, and God like me. I am as large as God. He is as small as I. He cannot above me, nor I, beneath him. Yeah, me. Max shows up on the boat and does the candle wax trick. Yeah. Always love that in a movie when somebody's like,

here's how fucked up I am. Right. There's some candle wax on my hand. When does he get like coffee thrown in his face? Hot water. He's like, you offer me a hot beverage. Yeah. Burn Katie coming out of the water and then the boat crash.

I love when he fends off the three hitmen. That's my favorite. I fucking love that scene. It's really good. You actually didn't mention the one I had. What you got? I kind of love the whole. night where they're waiting for Katie to show up

with the teddy bear. Oh, I should have put that in, you're right. And then he shows up Joe Don Baker. Well, and he kills Joe Don dressed as the maid. I had that in which age the best, but you're right, I should have put that in there. That whole sequence because they're all talking about like their, you know, like what they think of the situation and their marriage and stuff like that. I just

I love that scene. I love the scene between Joe Don Baker when he gets made by Katie and then they meet outside the diner and they have the one-on and Joe Don is just, he's turned it all the way up. It's past 11th. like on 14. And he's like,

I'm back in Walking Tall and I will beat the shit out of you, Max, Katie and Katie doesn't back down. Yeah, he's just like, were you a cop or were you like

not good enough to be a cop? So good. What are your Joe Don Baker memories, C.R. What are you got? He once sold me a Chevel that broke down

on the Ben Franklin Bridge on the way home. He did, walking tall was like a pretty, wasn't he in Waukeh was that Boz Swanson? No,

he did this movie. I got to find it. it was called Mitchell in 1975. Hell yeah. And mystery science theater which only did sci-fi movies for some reason

they decided to do Mitchell and just make fun of Joe Don Baker for 90 minutes because he's a little ponchy in it. Yeah. And it's a really bad movie. Yeah. That's his thing.

Yeah. And he's, and it's just a bad movie and it's the funny, it was my favorite mystery science theater that ever did, but I've always loved Joe Don Baker after that. Yeah, he played Buford Pusser

walking tall. And then I think he didn't do the sequel. What's age the best? I've got De Niro's hair and De Niro's laughing in the movie theater scene. Huge problem child guy. Max Katie. I love Problem Child. Jessica Lang, so this isn't the only category she's going to come up in.

But what's age of the best? She's at the perfect age of the wife that probably used to look. way better who's had a few cigarettes and a few drinks in her day. Cut her hair off. She kind of hates her husband. She's spite cut her hair off. She's still got some sex appeal to her and she's just grappling with 90 different things. There's been a lot of great art made about the specific character on TV shows. This is basically Reese Witherspoon's company. Just cranks out shows about this. She's fucking wishes, man. No Reese Witherspoon character. This is the impetus for a big little lies.

Smoking merits and wandering around the house and a nighty, like, looking out the Venetian lines. Put lipstick on herself for no reason. It's his big little ass season three, the prequel. How many Academy Awards does Jessica Lang have? Two? Two. How many nominations does she have?

Five? It's at least like four or five, right? Six. Wow. We don't think of her like that. I do. I think she's in that, like, Sissy Space Set class of people that had a better career than maybe people realize. Huge star.

I mean, she was a really, celebrated actor for a really long time. I feel like she's not as much in the culture the same way that like Merrill Streep is right now. You know what I mean? But she's up there. Not for me in this movie personally, but she's generally pretty great. We'll do Tootsie at some point. She's throwing 170 bucks. She won for that one. Yeah. When I was a kid, one of the first years I remember movies was when King Kong was coming out. And it was her and Jeff Bridges and they were being positioned by

the whatever. I was like, these are the next two biggest stars in Hollywood. I was like six, but it was, they were just banging it. And it's funny,

belatedly, they became two giant stars, but not for that movie. Yeah, that movie kind of stinks. Yeah, it didn't do well. You mentioned The Simpsons

that I think has been what's aged the best for this movie. And basically one of the legacies of this movie was that people, I'm not a Simpsons guy, but people consider that

to be one of like the five or six best Simpsons. What was it? What was the episode? It's called Cape Fear, but with an E at the end. It's basically a shot for shot Cape Fear of Parry.

And side show Bob is like tracks Katie. But there's a, to me, my favorite joke of all time from The Simpsons is on that episode, which is after side show Bob gets arrested, he's thrown in the back of a paddy wagon. And Bart says to the cops, take him away, boys.

And the other cop, Chief Wiggum, is like, that's my job. Bake him away, toys. And then they're like, Chief what? And bake him away toys is like, that's uttered in my house once a week. While you're smoking and putting on lipstick. Eileen, pay attention to me.

If your wife is smoking and putting on lipstick while you're sleeping at one in the morning, not ideal. Time to go to the counselor. Counselor. We mentioned Juliette Lewis. What's age the best for me? Anytime the bad guy kills the family dog in a movie, it's really on.

Yeah. When there's a dog murder, you know like, okay. I know. This is going to gradually get worse. Honestly, at 45 years old, if I see a dog in a movie, I'm like, clock's ticking. There's just like no reason to go through the trouble of getting a pet wrangler, unless the dog is going to be like, oh, no, man, not the dog. When you saw Mondale with Tom and Shiv, where you like, will Shiv take Mondale out

to send a message to Tom? Like, what's on the table here? I'm still reeling from how Mondale was treated in episode one. I have the song Patience. Yeah, G&R. Super confusing scene, though. Because it's played during caught stealing.

Yeah, it's played during the Jane's Addiction video. The Jane's Addiction video is playing, but we hear Guns and Roses as Patience. It's a song that was a really important early 90s song that is just gone. Love that song. They did remind me, though, because like... You're right, they did fuck up the video.

I was talking about this a little bit this weekend with some folks about, like, you know, are young people too distracted by their phones or kind of bullshit. The answers, yes. But we did used to put on our walkman, turn on the television, and read Sports Illustrated the same time. It's our fault. It's definitely our fault because we wanted to have it all.

And then we created machines that let us have it all. Bernard Herman. Any B.H. thoughts? I mean, he's the best thriller noir composer we got, right? Top three composers ever. Up there with Morricone and John Williams. And he's... And the guy did the White Shadow thing.

He worked with Scorsese on taxi driver, and then, I think, died, like, immediately after that movie was released. And Elmer Bernstein conducts this, right? And Elmer Bernstein rearranges the score. And some of it is his stuff from the original, right? Yeah. It's his stuff from the original, and then some unused stuff, I think, from Hitchcock's Marnie. Okay. When your name's Bernard Herman with two hours and two ends, you either have to be a great movie score person or, like, one of the great Army generals of all time.

He did not suffer fools, so he would have been good at that job, too. Max's tattoo reveals in jail. This is some of the best tattoo work we've ever seen in a movie. Apparently, they used vegetable ink, and it was stuck on De Niro's back for months after. I was going to ask that. How did they get it to look so real? Yeah, because they told De Niro, who also did some stuff where he fucked up his teeth. Yeah.

Paid $5,000 to get his teeth fucked up, another $20,000 to fix it. I also appreciated the fact that it wasn't like Eastern Promises where it's all like symbolic and allegory. Like, hey, man, nice wolf tat. What does that mean? Yeah. They were prison tax. No, it's just as vengeance is mine. You know, it's like, I was always just like, how did this guy, I guess he doesn't get

paroled or he just gets released for doing his, right? 14 years. When they're driving in Cape Fear, there's a sign for a bouquet of roses and carnations that it's but B-O-K-A-Y. It gets me every time. That's great. Problem Child with John Ritter. An amazing cameo.

Like, you couldn't have picked a better movie for Max Cady to laugh like a sociopath. I can't wait for Craig's take for this movie at the end. CR, some really elite cigarette smoking. Absolutely. And it gets me, it increases over the course of the movie. We're about to take the spring, which is when we kind of solicit some recommendations for new rewatchables categories from the listeners.

Oh, yeah. I do feel like there should be a cigarette smoking some sort of category. Who would you name it after? Like the Sunny Crockett best smoking or best use of SIGs? Just like the Leop. Maybe we could name it after a Leota. Yeah.

Or the Jimmy Conway? Yeah, but just like, because I was thinking of the ReLiotta smoking with E. Falco and Copland. Like, like, just incredible smoking. There's some really good smoking in this movie. Jessica Lang just always has one going. Nolte's got a few. She's got a virginia slim all the time. Yeah.

Different, different brands. Two people who also are like, they ripped a few heaters in their day. You know, there's no question that they've both partaking. Because this is definitely the, do you need the fake bad men cigarettes or you just want to smoke the real things? Or do you have your own? Yeah, I'll smoke my own. Yeah. I really like Salem's.

Let's keep going. Wide screen TVs I have for what's age is the best because this movie was really hard to watch on cable for a while. And now it looks incredible. Because of the square TV and some of the camera shots, especially in the last half hour. It's cinema scope. I was saying it's 1-2-339, which he had never shot in before. Yeah, you just couldn't follow it on. The last half hour of this movie on TBS.

was basically a good way of an aneurys. He's doing split screen. I can't imagine what that must have. He said it was for that reason, Bill. He said he was like, home video got good enough that I felt comfortable not getting, like, screwed with Pan and Scan when they converted it to TV so that it's shooting it this way, it would feel natural. What else he had for would say you best

anything? Martin Scorsese is shooting any athletic activity? The fucking racquetball scene? Sick. Yeah. Like, how much would, could we put together a GoFumme to get a Martin Scorsese racquetball movie movie off the ground? That was an awesome racquetball scene. Amazing. And you noticed that. He said.

boxing and racquetball. And pool. And pool. Like Martin Scorsese, make a fucking playground basketball movie. Please. It would be amazing. Do you wish he had made American History X

so we could have gotten a better basketball season? No, but I wish he'd made a movie about like the Willis Reed Knicks or something. Oh my God. My heart just skipped a beat. Or like a football movie. RIP by the way. Yeah. The only other thing I have is just when De Niro and he's like,

maybe I moved to California. Teach Earthquake Prepared. Such a perfect fucking line. You got anything else, yeah? Taking Juliette Lewis over some other people that we'll talk about who are very famous, but were not have been right for this, in my opinion. I think, and then her obviously becoming, yeah, a pretty big star in the 90s. Kid Cuddy Pursuit a Happiness Award for Best Needle Drop.

De Niro silhouetted against the Fourth of July fireworks with the score just coming in hard. That's pretty good. That's the... This is my homage to my friend. Brian De Palma scene because it's so recalls the blowout scene. Do you think BDP watches this and he's like

This is cool or he's like... No, he's pissed off. He's like, you fucked me on this. I can't get this. Stephen can't give this to me. Of course, this movie made $200 million and De Palma's like, shit, I got to make Raising Kane so it'll make 80. He was probably happy for Scorsese three-fourths of the way through the movie, but then when we got

on the boat, he was just pissed from that point on. Once the, once the 45-degree angle shots were happening. It's just such a De Palma movie. I mean, like the script, the characters, the way it looks. The sexual stuff, yeah. The music, it's so to Palma. What'd you have for Bigahuna Burger

best use of food or drink? Bill, I can't believe you have to ask me this. Jodon Baker pouring peptobisemol into a mug of bourbon. It's unbelievable. Jim Beam. Great call. It's just so relatable. Also, this runner-up is when Nolte comes home

and Jessica Lang's just like pouring seasoning on fried chicken. He's like, oh, chicken. It looks like the best fried chicken ever, homemade fried chicken, non-plus. He's like, by the way, played some racquetball today. Weird day at work.

What do you have for Denna Thieves Benny Hano Award for Seenstilling location? I'm gonna go with the houseboat. It's got to be the boat. Yeah, I had that too, and I didn't feel great about it. I was hoping there was a better... It's also like one of those things

where it's just like, did you guys think you were safe here? Right. That scheme of like, let's get out on the water, no one will get to us. What is he thinking there? Yeah, obviously. didn't watch enough movies. Great chat Gordo.

I'm going with when he leaves prison that scene I mentioned earlier. Walking into the camera. Walking into the camera. Yeah, I would also say that after the first time when he takes his keys and when he goes,

you're going to learn about, or I'll teach you about loss, but it's like he can't hear him because of Katie's walking away. Oh, yeah, yeah. And it's that like pullback shot. It's fucking scorcy. I would say the upside down.

The upside down phone. Oh, that's the one to me. Okay. All right, let's take a break and then we'll do the rest. This episode is brought to you by the Active Cash Credit Card from Wells Fargo. That's a mouthful, but that's because it packs a lot in. Earn unlimited 2% cash rewards on purchases with it, big or small.

So whether it's buying tickets to the game and grabbing a coffee, it earns unlimited 2% cash rewards on purchases. Say it with me, the Active Cash Credit Card from Wells Fargo, be a 2%er. Learn more at Wells Fargo.com forward slash active cash terms of play. This episode is brought to you by Spectrum Business. Fast, reliable internet means everything for your business. And even this podcast, that's why I trust Spectrum Business. They keep companies of all sizes connected with internet, advanced Wi-Fi, phone, TV, mobile services, plus 24-7 U.S.-based support. Millions of business owners already trust Spectrum Business. So visit Spectrum.com slash business to learn more. Restrictions apply. Services not available in all areas. All right, Butch's Girlfriend Award for Weeklink of the film. I'll bea Douglas.

We haven't really dove into that yet. Nope. Disagree. She's great in this. No, I don't have her as, not the acting. Her character not testifying. Oh. Even though they explain it and they need her not to testify because otherwise Katie goes to jail.

But I just feel like the police officers are going to be like, I know you're not testifying, but something horrible has happened and we're still going to lock this guy up. But is it? I mean, like, they just kind of let him go. But I think Mitcham's like, you should, I would never advise you to do this, but you should take care of this privately. You know, like, I feel like that's in line. It's a 2023 lens too on like a 1991 movie, right? Like in 1991, there was like the culture of fear around coming forward.

But then afterwards they're like, he hasn't done anything in it. It's like, no, he actually has something, has done something. Remember that, that young lawyer in the hospital? I don't know. It's just, it comes and goes. I thought her reasoning is heartbreaking where she's. just like, I know how these guys all joke about.

Yeah, no, that part's good. I just feel like the police officers in the town at that point because somebody did this. Mm-hmm. They have a 99.9% chance that it's her. And it just, at that point, I think they're just cars everywhere following him.

Such a complicated topic for three bros in a room to be talking about, you know? It's like, with sexual assault, with rape, with all this stuff, there's this long history. I think it's trying to be. as much as how the officers would deal with it

from that moment on with this guy. Yeah. I think they would take it seriously for sure. I think what Chris is saying is, like, her not coming forward is she's got a real reason to not come forward. She's got her reasons. And it's consistent also with the way that Mitchum's character reacts where he's just like,

everything is right on the line. He's on public property when he's like sitting on the wall. He like is doing all these things that are just like right up to the point of a threat or right up to the point of harassment or right up to the point of trespassing, but not that. And so, like, the way in which he kind of covers his tracks is just like... Well, it's an interesting scene. Like, when I was watching it the most recent time, watching it, I asked myself, does he, is he in control at this time? Like, has he

targeted her because he believes that that will be her reaction and she will not come forward? You know, like, is this part of his continuing scheme? That's what Sam believes. Right. And that's like an interesting psychological portrait of a monster. The Vincent Chase Award for Are We Sure This Character was actually good at his job? Joe Don Baker, obviously. I don't think he was good at his job. I'm going to say, not a great job as the PI. Claude Kersak?

Yeah. Can't really say he had a lot of wins and then ends up just dying in a pool of his own blood. Great Obit. Hate to be strangled by Piano Wire. Yeah. What's age of the worst? The near-Elean-Douglas scene is just. just horrible to watch.

It was horrible in the movie theater. It's horrible 32 years later. It's just really rough. I'm going to also give it the Ron Burgundy best time for a peep break. Just get the fuck out of there when they leave the bar. Although the scene before that and the bar... And the bar is good.

Just get out as soon as they're leaving. And De Niro, like, Katie, being like, oh, I was protesting a nuclear power plant and a marshal got all hands. I was like this guy. And she's really good in that. She's really good. She's great.

I like her as the one person who's not from the South, too, as this kind of like in this weird world that she's trying to fit in and she's trying to make friends and sleeping with her boss. We mentioned the Juliet Lewis auditorium scene

about the age. If she was 17, not that it's better that she was 18, but there's still some age that that's pretty creepy. More creepy is Sam's relationship with his daughter

in this movie, which I think as a dad of a teenage daughter I probably watch a little more carefully, but it's just... Put some clothes on. All that was weird. grabbing her feces.

Yeah, and he kind of attacks her? I don't know. It's weird. You're definitely right. Everything about it, and it almost seems like he's jealous that she connected with Max Cady, and I do think Scorsese was kind of interested in some of this stuff. He's playing the piano there, yeah.

There's some overtones with it that made me uncomfortable. Maybe that was the point. The special effects of the boat in the water did not make me uncomfortable. They just made me mad because they're really bad. They should go back and reshoot those. Yeah, the miniature that they're using as the kind of cut away. What else you have?

The posters on Katie's jail cell wall. It's like Robert E. Lee and Joseph Stalin. The Joseph Stalin picture. What does that even mean? Why does he admire Joseph Stalin's what? Yeah. Just one of those things where it's like,

if you're the guy who's like cleaning up his room afterwards, you might be like, you tip it off the local cops. P.S. Just maybe just like keep an eye on this guy. Big Stalin fan. Was there a better title for this movie? I'm going to say no.

Best quote, I will either give you, every man carries a circle of hell around their head like a halo, or if you hang on to the past, you die a little every day. Two good ones. In the Marty wheelhouse.

When Marty releases his coffee book of senior yearbook quotes, I think those two will be in there from his movies. The SAS hottest take award. Do you want to start? Do you have one? I do.

What do you got? Max Katie did what Dr. Hackett could not, and brought Lee and Sam back together. Great marriage counselor. His methods might have been highly an orthodox, but they found out how strong they were. I'm going the other way.

My take was going to be that Sam and Lee definitely needed to break up and that Sam would have been way happier with Lori. The racquetball lady. The movie is evidence of the fact that sticking together isn't always the answer. Because they are now stuck with lifelong trauma because they've been tortured collectively

by Max Katie. She says at the end, we agreed never to talk about him again. It's cool. I have that. Sure, that always works out. That'll go great. That's right.

My take, I decided after this movie that, you know, De Niro, who's the greatest actor, everybody's name gets thrown around. I think we can say indisputably De Niro is the greatest maniac actor we've ever had.

Travis Bickle, Rupert Pumpkin, Lewis Seifer, Gil Renard from the fan. Neil McCauley Al Capone Nick Lachley's not a psycho Dwight from this boy's life

More of a sociopath Neil Max Katie Jimmy Conway Just a malevolent force I just listed Nine movies where he's just a malevolent force Doesn't he play like Frankenstein's monster And he does the Frankenstein

There's other ones but just Nobody's a better maniac Like if you're going to him versus Pacino It's no contest And then him versus anybody Just there's a darkness to him That some of his best performances is just tapped into.

Good call, Bill. Thanks. It's a great take. The maniac goat. I really wish I had some time to think about this. Maniac goat actor. You're discounting like Boris Karloff, right?

You're discounting like the monsters of a previous generation. We're talking contemporary, all those people. Right, right, right, yeah. I am. You're in, you're in on this? I like it. It's a good take.

I also just like maniac goat. A great villainism. Different kinds of maniacs, too. He goes, one has a southern accent, one's a taxi driver. But based on, okay, I got to talk about devil's advocate again. Based on the work that Pacino does as John Milton, aka Satan in the devil's advocate. But Louis Seinfurt.

Yeah. One movie. Give me eight more, Pacino. Okay, but is it a quality over quantity thing? Because Pacino channeling the Dark Lord Satan is to me the top. That's like, that's apex mountain. That is the evilest. you can evil.

Well, if we're just talking about playing Satan, I think Pacino has it over Lewis Seifer. Yes. From Angel Heart. You know, Angel Heart? When is that?

When are you going to do it? When do we do it, Angel Heart? It's so bad. It's pretty bad. I do love it. The... Is there ever going to be like a New Orleans movie

that isn't deeply flawed? When are we going to do New Orleans Month? New Orleans Month. Just deeply flawed New Orleans' Prisoners. I love that movie. Casting What Ifs.

Scorsese? wanted Harrison Ford to play Sam and Ford only wanted to play Max Katie, which is immediately the worst movie of the 90s? Fascinating. Harrison Ford is Max Katie? Yeah. He's never done anything even close to that.

That would be so interesting. Allegedly Spielberg wanted Bill Murray to play Katie. I mean, this is around... Kind of like it. Yeah. I mean, it's not... He ended up playing Max Katie and Groundhog Day. What was the movie where he plays the

gangster and De Niro's the... Mad Dog and Glory. There's false internet research that Sarah Jessica Parker was cast and then replaced by Juliet Lewis. Why is it false? Because there's a bunch of stuff where Scorsese is like she was the first person we cast. You said Drew Barrymore? No, it's Sarah Jessica Parker.

There's stuff on there that she was cast and got fired, but I don't think that's true. They did audition like 500 actresses, all of whom went on to become pretty famous or the top 20. Jennifer Conley, Drew Barrymore. Reese Witherspoon? True Barrymore and Reese I looked it up. They were both 15 when they were filming this. That changes the movie

in a bunch of ways. Yeah, I'm really glad it wasn't Drew Barrymore too. Because Drew Barrymore has such a different energy. She said that it's like one of her greatest disappointments was the audition for this movie.

She said she blew it. I think Reese five years later would have been amazing. 15 year old Reese, no. But like 20 year old Reese around between like man on the moon and fear

like freeway reach I think would have been really great in this. Tracy Flick. Diane Keaton apparently was going to play the wife

and didn't win the part thank God that's a weird one It was an abortion, Sam! I'm just not a huge fan of lying in this movie. I really don't get that. We're about to get to it.

The Ruffalo Hannah Rubidick Partridge overacting word. They knew, and they let it happen. Don't you call me, lady! I come in here, I give these things to you. Give me all your got! Give me all you got!

I treated you like a son! You fucking stab me in the heart! Fuck you! Do we put the Lee Bowden Award now? I think we add her. I think we have to add her, Craig. Craig, can you dial up her being like, Why did you bother? Why did you bother?

I'm not on fucking trial here! Because you asked me to go and I thought it was a damn good... Why did you bother? Why did you bother? Why did you bother with you and me with the marriage? It's a lot. Even for a movie like this. There's a solid 10 minutes where she is doing nothing but smoking and touching her face. And it's obviously like a thing where she was like this person has like a nervous tick where they touch her face.

She touches her face. She's putting on makeup all the time to like kind of like, you know, she's never getting out of the house or whatever. But it is real partridge. hours. He's blaming her. He's blaming her for the dog death. I didn't let him out.

She screams top of her lungs. She's got a lot of screaming in this movie. She's going for it in this movie. It feels intentional though. What is Sam sticking around for? Come on.

He's already... You never know when she's going to fucking just throw in a nightie and start wandering around. She keeps things spicy. You're lying in bed. You're watching a fucking Charlotte Hornets game.

And there goes Lee. Smoking a heater. Closing blinds. There is a great legacy of characters like this. I remember the, what was that movie

when Gwyneth Paltrow's, or TV show were Gwyneth Poutro's mom? Was it weeds? Blight Danner? Blight Danner played like the drunk mom and like weeds. It was one of those showtime shows.

I always enjoyed these characters. This is, don't call me lady. Maybe because I'm related to one of them. But I've always enjoyed hysterical. hysterical high-strung alcoholics. Yeah, man.

Yeah, it might hit close to home. I don't know. But yeah, she's really going for it. Yeah. That's that guy award. We're just giving to Joe Don Baker, even though he's not technically that guy. I think for Craig's generation, he is.

Absolute beast. Is this the greatest collection of Dion Waders' actors? Maybe not in the movie, but as far as names eligible for Deon Waders, this is the greatest collection we've ever had. This is the only time Gregory Peck has eligible for Deon Waiters. And Robert Mitchum.

In the history of his career. Mitchum at least did some smaller parts. But like Gregory Peck died right after this movie. Yeah. Also him playing. He better died during the movie. Like a shit heal lawyer while he is Atticus Finch. It's so smart.

It's completely lampooning his own yet. Yeah. Who'd you have for Deion Waiters? I had Peck. Yeah, I think Mitcham's cool. But Peck gets to say Philistine wrong. And it's just awesome. I agree. I like that.

Philistine. I mean, is I'm like, is I mean, is I'm eligible? let's get shout I feel she's probably like the fifth most in the movie actor she's doing a lot with a part that could have been a nothing part she's really good that's a good choice I have a 2023 recasting couch for you

for Cape Fear okay Ryan Gosling and Emma Stone and Bernthal is Max Katie Wow Chris you can hold off till later just marring it on that one

if not at Emma Stone, if she's too young, who's a little older, that could be with Gosling? Your girl, Amy Adams. If she's out. What about Reese now? Oh, that would be good. That's it.

Can Reese pull off the, I might jump the Gardner vibe that Jessica Lang has? Did you see Bing of the Lies? You kidding me? When she jumped the theater? Yeah, I guess she could. That's good. That's pretty good. She's from the South, too.

Half-Asternate research. We mentioned all the Hitchcock stuff. We mentioned the tattoos. high school auditorium, two cameras. Oh, here's one. The film was the inspiration for professional wrestler Dan Spivey's character, Waylon Mercy in the WWF in 1995. You can go watch this on YouTube.

He's doing Max Katie as a wrestler. Vince waited four years. It was like, yeah, it's been long enough. People won't remember what the movie's about. Just do it. And then Bray Wyatt dipped into it too. That's the best thing ever, though, the professional wrestling is like,

we need a psychotic Southern serial killer. That's a good character for us. Dance Bob is like on it. The climax was filmed in a 90-foot water take. Took a month to shoot it, right? De Niro researched sexual predator crimes

for the part and suggested the scene where the character bites the victim. Probably not a great Google search in 2023. Yeah. Bob, what did you do today? And then CR texted me about this over the weekend. It's the most me and CR

half-ass internet research tidbit of all time. When I saw this, I was just like, I feel like maybe IMDB is starting to place trivia just for Bill and I to say it on re-watchables, but go ahead. Just in case we do the movie. In the jail, in his cell,

one of the books was The Cell Within by Jake Manning. Which isn't a real book. It only exists as part of a Miami Vice storyline from a 1989 episode when Tubbs is tormented and imprisoned by the author Jake Manning and ex-conny helped convict years before. Did you remember this episode of Weiss?

Did not. I'm not as... Did you go back and confirm this? This sounds late period. I'm not as literate in year-four, year-year-five vice. Okay. I'm really a year-one, year-two guy. Yeah.

Sounds like a good opportunity for you guys to do another few episodes of Miami Vice here on the re-watch. I feel like maybe this summer if things let out you and I should just do a real long Miami-Vice rewatch. Just like the first 22?

I don't know. Let's just play roulette, see what it comes up. I have no idea why they did this. though. It's so random. That's not one of the Great Miami Vice episodes. I don't know who would even get the reference. Do you think it's like the production designer was like

just stole the book from? My buddy works on vice. This will be hilarious. That might have been it. They might have just dipped from the warehouse. Just De Niro getting ready for heat five years early. Apex Mountain. Definitely not for Scorsese or De Niro. What do we say it was for De Niro?

This is right around when he's the most marketable and famous I can't remember. Did we say it was... Gosh. It was good, fellas? I don't remember. It's somewhere around here.

Maybe this was it. I mean, this movie did make a ton of money and led to him doing 12 movies in three years. It's really hard to say. I mean, he wins an Oscar for the Godfather perk two, you know? Right. And then is off. I mean, you could say Raging Bowl was Apex Mountain.

But then when you look at his IMDB after, he really didn't make a lot of movies for the next couple years. Maybe it's probably raging bowl. I guess as a box office star You might be right this might be it As a yeah De Niro box office guy I agree Nolte it's in the 70s

Probably when people were talking about him As the number one 48 hours Yeah Early 80s Jessica Lang no Juliette Lewis I would say natural born killers

Yeah Yeah agree The The The 1991 face biting In movies that got Oscar nominations rage really peaked here.

I know. Didn't have a lot of facebiting sense. Not a lot of contenders. Fred Thompson? I'm going to say yes. This was really the Fred Thompson era. When did he get elected to the Senate? No, not Senate.

Do you want me to read those five movies he made in 18 months? I'm just asking when he got elected to do that. No, not Senate. Hunt for Red October for 12 minutes. I want to get elected to the Senate just so you could be like, uh-uh. CR's best work was on the re-re-re-reheat. probably the place Cape Fear, which is an actual place.

This movie is probably the apex amount. Although weird place to vacation. Where are we going? Did you see that's Corsese? Down there, we got a houseboat. Great movie theater. Where are we going for vacation? Dungeon Hell?

Who names that town, Cape Fear? I didn't come up. I didn't have a racehorse name. Oh, I did. Unless you want to go Cape Fear for the racehorse name. Racehorse name Hospital Job. Oh. That's a good one.

That's a good one. I like that. All right. We use that. Pickinitz. Double murder in the house, including Joe Don Baker, and they just don't call the cops.

Well, they do from the road. He's like, we're fugitives. Remember? He calls and he's just like, you'll find two bodies. Why are they fugitives? There was a double murder in their house. Why not just have the police come?

It's not like they did anything wrong. Yeah. Their maid and Joe Don Baker were murdered in their house. Maybe call the cops? I just didn't think Joe Don had to die in that way. I didn't really appreciate that. You wanted him to have a massive coronary from Jim Beam and Tepto every day.

Well, I have that for picking it too. Now, maybe he's pretty drunk on Jim Beam, but not, you're just doing a sideways look at the maid making tea at two in the morning? Yeah. Not going to just take a one, like a two second look? I think he's supposed to be bad at his job. Yeah, didn't seem on the ball.

That's like, it's maybe not the top of the line security. How did you feel about Max Katie hanging under the car for three hours on the way to Cape Fear? A little latch. This is a big, I watched it a one hour and 20 minute making of this film to prepare for this podcast. And there's a moment in that making of where I think either Wesley Strick, the screenwriter, or Scorsese, is like, people are saying that this is not believable.

Here's why it is. So that has to be really high up there on the picking nits. Wow. Yeah. And nowhere in your research is you come across the cell within by Jane. Yeah. That wasn't in the 80-minute documentary. It didn't come up.

The real Cape Fair is located on Bald Head Island, faces the ocean at the river. No cars are allowed, so there's no exits. Oh, yeah. So they kind of cheated on that one. Welcome to Cape Fear on Bald Head Island. What the fuck is that? Leave your car on the mainland.

It's the worst vacation ever. We mentioned the boat using the little tiny boat. And then at the end, Juliette Lewis's character says how they never talked about Max Katie again, ever. Sure. Just kind of filed that one away. I just find it hard to believe. Push it down. This is like a month and a half long traumatic experience with this ex-con who murdered their maid and their dog and broke their boat and almost killed them and not coming up ever.

Yeah. We can get to this at Z. Wananayo, but I have some questions about that after the effects. It's like when Kyrie was on the Celtics for you. You know, just like... We do talk about it. We have to talk about that. Any other picking hits? Yeah, a couple.

One is just that like after a certain point, like there's like three scenes that start with Nulte closing all the blinds and locking all the doors and I would just probably like leave them locked in close. Yeah, just do one. There's also the whole thing where a bandaged deranged Max Cady is able to get personal information from a desk clerk at an airline by just being like, oh, I was in a car accident. I'd really love to find out this guy's coming going.

I believe that. I don't know why. But it was like, it was just funny. Like, that guy wouldn't get into the airport now. You know, any of he wouldn't gotten past TSA. There wouldn't be a movie if something like this happened. But to this day, you read stories about folks getting shot in Texas for trespassing on other people's property. It's a pretty good case that Sam could have just blown Max Kady away one day.

And people would have been like, I get it. He's been torturing him. This would have been acceptable. And instead, he's, like, really trying to follow the letter of the law. But when he decides not to, he does it in the most, like, bullshity way where he's like, we're going to hire three. three guys with a bike chain to hit him. Like, if you're going to do it, do it, man. Yeah, maybe spend more than $1,000 on your hitman.

Can you imagine what the, like, the job center situation is for those three hitmen who's like, oh, hey, Kerk, Kerkerkerk's coming. Well, they were too busy selling bouquets of flowers on the side of the road. I don't have to sell, like, baby laxative in this gas station anymore. They're going to beat up Max Gady. This is a movie pet peeve for me because other moves have done this, but I hate it. when it's three guys, but it's $1,000 because you can't split $1,000.

Right. Like, just say $1,500. Which one of those three guys got $400? The other two got $300. Yeah. The guy with the chain, you think? I like the... Yeah, the chain guy

felt like was the ringleader. Chris, you ever, like, clean, just hit a guy with a pipe in your life? Just take a clean shot at him. There was some great sound effects. Some real good aluminum Louisville slugger sound effects. I love that scene. A little bit of the College World Series sounds.

Sequel, prequel, prestige, TV, All Blackcast are Untouchable. All Blackcast would be amazing. I mean, they're basically, there's a whole run of movies like this right now with Omar Epps and, like, the intruder, like stuff like I watch all of them. It's Jamie Fox, Vivica A. Fox as the couple,

and it's Ving Rames as the Max Katie. Would watch it today. Ving Rames. Oh, wow. We didn't give up on Ving Rames after that last Mission Impossible. I'll never give up on Ving. I'm not so sure if Ving's got the lateral mobility anymore. He can't see Athleticism anymore.

He doesn't have the quick twitch. But at this time, like undisputed era? What about Idrisalba? Oh, like modern day? Yeah. Yeah, well, we can get our guy. Oh, you're saying in this time. Yeah, I'm saying now.

Yeah, now it's Sterling K. Brown and Regina King. Awesome. Oh, yeah. Awesome idea. And maybe Jamie is Max. Jamie going dark? Yeah, yeah, Abdul Matine. He could do it.

Oh, yeah. He's pretty jacked. Who could you see? screaming scripture at the top of his lungs with the southern drawings. Worst case scenario is like Michael B. Jordan decides to be a bad guy again and just mangles it. Kalua would be interesting.

Yeah, he'd have to do the southern accent. It's a little bit of, could be tricky for... It's a fucking British guy. Is this movie better with Wayne Jenkins, Danny Treo, Catherine Hodge, and Steve Bouchemmy, same Jackson, J.T. Walsher, Philip Baker Hall. I was thinking that maybe Wayne could be Jessica Lang's boss at the graphic design firm.

It could just be like, God damn, Lee. This arrow really depicts stability. I didn't know I was working with the Henri Matisse of commercial art. Hey, you know what, Max, Katie? You're going away a long fucking time, big man. Get him the fuck out of here. That whole scene where she's just like, they want an arrow and they want it to be stable.

But just like smoking 14 cigarettes. All respect to Bernthal, this is a J.T. Walsh movie. Yeah. Like J.T. Walsh just should be in this movie. I don't know what part. This is staring us in the face, but Bernthal should play Katie. Yeah, yeah. That was what you were suggesting.

He could also play the Joe Don Baker part pretty well. That's true. He's got... When the maid comes in. God damn, Rita! Just want to ask her who gets it? I would say De Niro. Yeah.

Probably an answer real questions. And maybe they did this. intentionally, but it did seem like Lee was kind of in on the, on Max on the boat when they were going at it. It seemed like she was getting into it there for about three seconds. I think she's throwing everything she can at the wall. I think she's like, this is the last, like, what else are we going to do? Maybe I can, like, distract him. It's the only time when I really liked Jessica Lang's performance in the movie because it's focused. It's not her doing a million ticks, like Chris was saying. It's, it's almost convincing that she wants him because

she's doing something different. Who would you have rather had in the part from the early 90s? Susan Sarandoned? Well, I would always rather have Susan Sarandoned in anything. This is a great time for her too. Well, you... Bull Durham. You said Sissy SpaceHex, that's kind of interesting, right? Because she's not like VavaVoom, right? Like Jessica Lang is,

you know, so that could be interesting. Sally Field? Yeah. Yeah. That would fit. A lot of Southern actresses from that generation. I think with Jessica Lang, though, she's tall. And I think that character needs a little physicality with Max. Sally Field's like five feet tall. Yeah, she's smaller.

Is Jessica Lang that tall? Yeah, she's 6-8. She's tall. She's like 5'9. I didn't know that. She's about the same numbers as Demonta Sabonis. Yeah, that's right. She loves playing the high post.

Unanswerable question. Is this one of the top five greatest De Niro death scenes? I'll give you just five off top of my head. Yeah. Heat. Neil. The hand. Holden Vincent's hand.

taxi driver Joker yeah well that's kind of abrupt that's a memorable one yeah Jackie Brown oh that's great ooh I love that one

you used to be beautiful Cape Fear just fading into the water as he's speaking in tongues and stuff yeah I looked it up De Niro's died in like 19 movies I felt like he was about to die

when Aubrey Plaza was astride him in dirty ground I don't know if I saw a dirty grandpa He died Here are all the movies De Niro died in Bloody Mama, mean streets Bang the Drum slowly 1900

The Swap Brazil, the Mission Cape Fear This boy's life He dies of terminal on a soft screen Frankenstein Heat the fan Jackie Brown

Great expectations Men of Honor 15 minutes God send Hide and Seek, Machete, New Year's Eve, freelancers, The Bagman, and Joker. Way to spoil the mission, Bill. Sorry, guys.

That's a lot of deaths. I wonder what the death record is. It should be a website. I think Jodon Baker might beat that. Joe Donne Huckett's like, fuck this. I died five times at Mitchell. What do you got for double-featured choice with this movie? Wait, can I do a couple possibly answer your questions?

Let's hear him. Doesn't it seem like Kersik has too much time on his hands? Yeah, he's disgraced from the forced private investigator who sucks at his job. But do you think that that's just because it's summer in North Carolina and the Tar Heels are playing? So it's just like, I got time to kill us so we could just do it. Do you think he would be the host of like a lockdown sports pod now? Well, because this is early, this is like the third season of the Hornets. So it's like Trapuca, Bogues, you know.

Yeah, LJ awaits. LJ is right around the corner. He's focused on the lottery. Yeah, he's waiting. What happened? In 91 letter I'm gonna look better It's gonna be Grandma-Mont time

in North Carolina My other thing While Bill's looking this up Is like you know In this film Max Katie Learns to read And then learns the law

In 14 years Yeah, love to do that What would you do If you had 14 years In the Bing And you could just learn You guys didn't know That I have been studying

The Law During the entire stretch Of the Ringer So when my calendar is blocked out That's just me Going through jurisprudence Yeah An 80-minute

Documenters on YouTube Larry Johnson was the 1991 first pick. Come on! So Joe Don Baker. And cursive didn't live to see it. Oh man. He just bought season tickets. He died thinking Kelly Trupucco was the greatest ever. Just looking at all that UNLV tape.

Yeah. Any other ones? Oh, well, I was just wondering what you would do with 14 years in prison. What would you learn? Definitely I would try to read and become an expert on some sort of reading thing and would probably sort of reading? Like some sort of some sort of thing that would help me

when I got out like the law something and I would also I would try to be the guy who was in charge of the cigarettes so that I wouldn't get attacked every night

that's a very good idea I feel like the cigarette guy is always they have to like treat him with respect okay those would be my two moves so you would become a doctor and also

horrible cigarettes no like a lawyer okay combo with like cigarette guy yeah okay what would you do Chris study to be a priest

I'd learn to code. That or I would just practice my Wayne Jenkins. Double feature choice is tough for this movie because this is a movie. We could do the original. Oh, that's interesting. All right, that's good. I like that. I would do vertigo.

Ooh. It's good. Because the music and the, you know, there's the scenes where the image goes to like black and white and then it goes to red and green and he's making these like really bold choice. And the movie ends that way too, right? It ends on the eyes and it goes to black and white. Like those are overt Vert vertigo Omages.

So I feel like that's the movie that was most in his head when he was making this. The only other one I was thinking was Raising Kane which came out a year later

from a frustrated diploma who couldn't believe he made Kate somebody else made Cape Fear. The Indian Red Zawatne Award what happened the next day? Chris?

This is really tough. I mean like what happens this marriage the next day? Like do they leave North do they leave Essex? Should they go back to Atlanta? back to sessions with Dr. Hackett.

The daughter definitely is going to college on the West Coast. Yeah. And probably living there during the summers because she got a job in Santa Barbara. She probably goes to Cal because she can major in Henry Miller studies. Yeah. What about San Diego State? That could be a good option for her. San Diego State.

She meets... She knows the basketball team's coming 30 years later. Now, she's out. She's West Coast, probably studying abroad junior. Anything to not come home to Carolina. In this time period, maybe she moves to Seattle, becomes part of the grunge movement, you know? I think the, these two definitely are different.

She just moves right past that one. That's actually a really good call. No sold it. I was like, she could become, like, play bass and hole. She could do an L7, you know? Yeah. That's good. I think Nolte and Lange are divorced within a year.

It's so fast. It's a wrap. Yeah. It's done. What piece of memorabilia would you want? Do you think either one of them wants the house in Essex? Like, who gets to keep the house that? They're definitely selling that. He's splitting.

Two murders at a dog death. They're splitting in that. They disclose the murders. Yeah. And part of the proceeds probably go to the maid. What piece of memorabilia? Why were if the maid's still working? Yeah, why was she there at night?

Couldn't they have told her? Like, get the fuck out of here? No, wasn't it because she would only be there if he was gone? Oh, if he could drive her home. That's right. He's like, we, he was like, what would you do normally? He was like, Sam would drive her home. Otherwise, she would stay.

That's right. How did De Niro, how did Katie kill the maid without anybody hearing? She was just laying like 10 feet of. way in a hallway bloody. That's a great question, Craig. No, I don't know. Guys, I really got to pee, so. We're wrapping.

What piece of membrane would you want for this movie? I'm going with De Niro's bikini lighter. It was phenomenal. Oh, I was going to say the Mustang that he drives. Or Max's, sorry, Sam's Searsucker suit. You have a Coach Finstock Award for Best Life Lesson? Maybe don't bury the evidence

when you're representing somebody? I would just say leave town. get the fuck out on something that no one can feasibly hang on I am as large as God God is as small as I you know just just read your scripture

I'm trying to remember I don't remember enough about how people thought about this in the early 90s whether Max was slightly more sympathetic because the legal system had screwed him or whether because you watch it now it's so clear he's the bad guy the whole time but he still raped someone even though he got an unfair trial He still committed the act. The movie seems interested in the concept of

no matter how bad of a person you are, do you deserve the fair right to be represented? Right. Who won the movie? De Niro. I agree. I usually say the director, but in this case, Max Katie, such an iconic figure.

What do you got, Craig? I guarantee you I'm the only person on Planet Earth who watched both SCSU in Final Four and Sweet 16 and Elite 8 games and then came home and watched Cape Fear. To celebrate. How was that as like a buzzkill? Really weird come down.

I think it was probably you and Tony Gwynn where the two people who did that. Other than the Juliette Lewis scene, which was pretty hard to get through, this movie's fantastic and super rewatchable. I love what you guys are talking about, like a director, like an overqualified director

getting a genre movie. It's like when Ray finds his character in the menu makes the cheeseburger. I love that. Yeah. You know? But it also made me think about this movie came out

like a year before scent of a woman which as you know I didn't love Pacino's performance I feel the exact opposite about De Niro I think he's awesome in this

I completely agree with you that it's so impressive that he is so famous at the time at the time and now for me going back and I still I can watch this movie

and really not see Robert De Niro and I feel just the complete opposite about Pacino and the scent of a woman great points this was a really big movie if they released this movie

now would it be a big movie Yeah, because is it like Leonardo DiCaprio playing Max Katie? I agree. I think it could work. The thing that I always think about with this is also like is 35, 40 million budget, 180 million box office like the perfect ratio? Because that means like you get just enough money to get some big stars but have some creative freedom. And then 180 is like, God damn, we made more money. What is that ratio now though?

We're getting back to like 350. There's a little bit of like scream John Wick, Creed 3. these movies are all kind of like doing similar ratios. Air in principle, but not really because I think Amazon probably spent like $100 million for that. But in general, like those kind of movies, I do feel like those might come back. I hope that's what I want is the $50 million movie

to be more dominant. That's great for everybody. I also want what I said earlier, Damon Chiselle, Barry Jenkins. Yeah, make Halloween 14. No, just spend nine months to make a movie. It doesn't have to mean everything. Everything.

Just make a good example of that. And it's important when these things do happen is to recognize it when it happens like widows is a perfectly good example. Yeah, yeah. It's a great call. Steve McQueen make like a fucking awesome crime movie.

I totally agree. It's a great thing, but it's harder to get those movies made too sometimes. You know, like, it's not as easy to just be like, all right, do your horror movie. And there are directors out there who I think Soderberg would do it.

Like, Ryan Cougler made Creed in 2015 is made I think three movies since Two, two Black Panther movies Yeah Oh yeah, you're right Two, two movies Fruitvale Creed, two Black Panther movies

Like he couldn't have just made some The Scorsese version of that Awesome action movie Is Fruitvale and four or five other movies That are his and then He makes the jump But now you make one indie that does well And they grab you and put you in a franchise

Right like are the Daniels now just gonna make like They're making a Star Wars show Or they're making an episode of a Star Wars show But that's like they're in the system You know I'm tired of those guys bragging about bragging about I got my thrift store

tuxedo that I wear the Oscars fuck off I think to me Jordan Peel is doing it the right way one movie every two years original story he's in control and it's a big summer movie

or a big Christmas movie it's just like every couple years we got Jordan Peel movie that's the way to do it to me when you guys went did you saw this in the theaters did you all see this movie? I can't remember it was 90

yeah I think so I saw pretty much everything I always wonder every time you guys mentioned that you saw it in the theaters were they packed when you're there? Packed.

God. I did not see this movie. That's such a foreign concept to me. A packed movie theater? Yeah. It's been a really long time. John Wick is packed this week. I mean, I haven't been in a packed movie theater since I was, I don't know, 15.

I can't even remember. That's bad. That's not good for movies. That's bad for movies. John Wick 4 apparently was packed all weekend. Yeah. I mean, it did an amazing business. I looked at tickets for last night and it was all over the place.

Just nothing. But just most movies you would go to in the theaters in the 90s were just full. I mean, like, you would go to. But it was, if you went on a Saturday or Friday night. If it was a big movie like this, I mean, this is a huge, this is one of the biggest movies of the decade. It's a, it's a, this is a hundred million dollar thriller from Martin Scorsese. Yeah.

Yeah, it was for an adult audience, this is probably one of like the 12 or 13 biggest adult It was impossible to, I mean, like, we also had like, we also had like, I don't mean to make it sound crazy, but like, huge movie theaters, like, movie palaces and stuff like that. Don't forget, we had way less to do. No, I know. I think I get it. It was really important when movies came out. I remember the specific.

when Aladdin came out. Me and my family and my cousins, we all live nearby, and we had a movie theater that was like a single theater that was a 10-minute walk from my house. And we probably went to the theater to see it like four times. And every time we went over the course of a month, it was sold out every time.

But it's because of what Bill just said. There was just a lot of us to do. I remember going on like my first date was to ghost and like ghost was packed. Yeah, like I remember the hangover was packed. I saw Ted in theaters. It was packed. Yeah.

But it's been a really long time since I've even been in a half full theater. Did you see Endgame? I mean, that's the equivalent. Yeah. Like, endgame was packed for months. Yeah. There's also, yeah, when I did the convo with Damon and Affleck talking about the Us Weekly era

and how celebrity changed from the mid-2000s to now and just like, it just, things were simpler for a long time. Now there's just too many people who are famous to some degree. There's too many things to do. And like my son loves John Wick. He hasn't seen John Wick. he had his on spring break. He's hanging out of his friends every day.

You know another reason why they were packed? This is not scintillating, but it's, uh, movie theaters used to be like one to three theaters in the complex maybe, but a lot of time, one or two. Now you have these multiplexes where it's like 15 screens. If you're going to go see John Wick 4, it's probably playing every half hour. Yeah. But like back then, it was more like menace to society is playing at five. That's true.

And eight. Yeah. Also, there were only 30 channels on television. Can't under a few. two movie theater is gone. Yeah. They're just,

they don't exist anymore. There's no, there's no business model for that to work. I love the list feels three, though. I hope it stays open forever. The Westwood theaters are small.

There's this one in sunset, the Sunset 5. It's just five. I don't know how they make money. How is that a business model? Craig's right. There's a couple of old school movie houses in Westwood.

But the Vista is not open right now. I don't, I mean, the new Beverly is a single theater, but it's all rep. I remember in Cross Creek in Malibu that had the two movie theater, and it got replaced by a fucking, what's that? I'm blank in one of those famous Beverly Hills stores, and I thought it was so fitting that it was like, oh, this movie theater. I was a big part of this Malibu community,

and now it just got replaced by a Ted Baker store. I'm feeling bullish about this stuff, honestly, because the last couple of comic book movies didn't do very well. That stuff starting to fall back in the culture, I think is really good for movies. The streamers don't want to make as much stuff. They're not going to make as many movies. Apple's putting stuff in theater now. Executives listen to the rewatchables every week.

Yeah, why don't they make those anymore? Yeah. Just keep pushing. David Zazlund was like, I got to open a bunch of two-screen theaters. These guys have it right. Everyone thinks it's 20 screens. It's actually two screens. Even an Alamo that has 10 theaters is better than an AMC that has 25.

Yeah. You know, like there's a middle ground. Let's do the middle ground. I remember when those started open up in Boston in the early mid-90s. There was one in Somerville. There was one in Chelsea. And it was like these 20 movie theater things. And it was just like, oh, my God, finally.

Now every movie's going to be there. And now those things are probably going to all go under. And they're using technology from when they first open. That's the problem. A lot of the movies look like shit on those theaters. All right. That's it for the rewatchables. That affected by enjoyment of points.

I think. I would keep talking about this, but Sean's just going to start peeing on us off. I honestly passed out six hours ago. You guys never mentioned Katie's outfits, by the way. Which is a trash. I got a couple other ones

which is the best year, yeah. Oh, we did, and we didn't mention how he got the like 60,000 from his family or some Oh my God, yeah. 30 grand that he fucking makes work. This fucking maniac got money. I'm getting a UTI right now, so

can you please wrap this up? All right. That's it for the podcast. new spec, Craig Horvack. We'll see you next week.