The Rewatchables - Creed With Bill Simmons, Wesley Morris, Sean Fennessey, and K. Austin Collins

Episode Date: January 4, 2022

The Ringer’s Bill Simmons, Sean Fennessey, and K. Austin Collins and The New York Times’ Wesley Morris head to Philly to sprint up and down the Rocky steps and revisit 2015’s instant boxing classic ‘Creed,’ starring Michael B. Jordan and Sylvester Stallone and directed by Ryan Coogler (3:00). They also go deep on Jordan's and Coogler's career choices and the current state of movies (1:03). Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Today's episode of The Rewatchables on The Ringer podcast network is brought to you by ZipRecruiter. My listeners can try it for free at ZipRecruiter.com slash BS. Remember, 80% of employers are post a job on ZipRecruiter, get a quality candidate through the site in just one day. Meanwhile, Seekek is the best app for buying and selling tickets to sporting events, concerts, March Madness Games, and more. For $20 off your first Seatkeek purchase on any game or sporting event, all you have to do is use promo code rewatch, download the Seekek app or go right to Seek.com. If you love the movie stuff that we are doing on the rewatchables podcast, I would encourage

you to listen to Channel 33 and subscribe because that is where Sean Fantasy's Big Picture podcast is updated pretty much every week. And he has all the best directors, even some actors. Everybody in the movie industry, it is. a really smart podcast on the whole movie. And it's training. If you love college basketball, don't forget to check out one shiny podcast this week.

March Madness is upon us. They will give you all the sleepers, all the breakdowns you'd ever want as we hold hands and walk through this tournament together. Speaking of holding hands, come with me for, I think, the second longest rewatchables we've ever done. We taped this a couple weeks ago

when Cam Collins from the ringer and Wesley Morris from formerly of Grantland, now of the New York Times, my old teammate. They were here. Sean Fantasy was here as well. We talked about Creed. It was right after the weekend when Black Panther really just went through the roof and Ryan Coogler, who directed Creed and Black Panther, obviously, had become not just the hottest director in Hollywood,

but one of the craziest career arcs we've seen. So we talked about that. We talked about everything we loved about this movie. and then it kind of veered into where movies going. It's all over the place. Hold on to your seats. Here it comes. They came back with Rocky 5.

It was one of the worst days of my life. Rocky 6, a lot of mixed feelings. Heard they were doing Creed. I was nervous. It was awesome. The rewatchables coming up next. You don't really seem like a boxer to me. My dad was a fighter.

You died before I got a chance to meet him. You're a good kid, a good fighter. With this fight, I don't know if you were ready for it. I don't know if I'm ready for it. I need you right now. What are you afraid of? You are Apollo Creed's son, right? So then fight.

If it was anybody else in my corner, I wouldn't do it. I got you. Ready, PG-13. Wesley Morris from The New York Times is here. Sean Fantasy Editor and Chief of the Ringer is here. Cam Collins. What's your official title at the Ringer? Staff writer.

Staff writer. That doesn't sound exciting enough. How about if you say it like this? Critic at large. Chief takeologist. That's charity. Just charity's nemesis. We're talking about Creed.

It is a movie that only came out in 2015. It is single-handly carrying the epics channel, which I, one of the only people that has. It's on all the time on epics. I watch it all the time on epics. I just jump in a certain scenes. Epic doesn't seem like they have a lot of movies. I don't know what their library they're working on, but it's like, Creed, Anchorman, and like three other movies, and that's all they have.

Ryan Coogler's second movie, second collaboration with Michael B. Jordan, the first Rocky movie not written by Slice Stallone, made $174 million. 95% score on Rotten Tomatoes, Sean. I don't care. It means nothing. And Stallone was nominated for Best Supporting Actor and somehow didn't win. It was a jaw-dropping moment. This is a really good movie, and it's relevant again because these two have team

up yet again now for the third straight time for Black Panther, which is a phenomenon. Wesley, where do you want to begin? Can we talk about this as a boxing cancer love story movie? Sure. Okay. It's your world. It's not my world. I don't know.

Where should we start? Should we talk about it first as, well, let's talk about it first as a Rocky movie. Yeah, so just to give it some context. Rocky 5 murdered the Rocky franchise in 1990. I saw it with my buddy Jim Grady in, I think Syracuse, New York, and built a whole weekend in college around it, and it was a disaster, and we just ended up getting bombed. Rocky Baboa came out 06.

People tried to talk themselves into it. It's fine. I think it's pretty good. It's okay. Some good fight scenes. There's some good. The sun's good. The fight scenes are good.

The love story is not good. No. It changed the way that some boxing scenes were filmed, right? Didn't it did some new things? It did like an HBO. It seemed like an actual telecast. It decided to skip over the fact that Rocky was brain damaged. I just spilled water all over myself.

In Rocky 5, he was like legit brain damaged. And in Rocky 6 he wasn't, that's fine. Creed comes out. And I think we're just supposed to pretend that Rocky 5 and 6 never happened. I'm willing to pretend. I don't even remember what happened in 5 and 6. I mean, by all means... Well, five Tommy guns, played by Tommy Morrison.

So that's out. They pretend that. Oh, that's right. That was that one. They canceled five. I'm not sure if they canceled six. They never really clarified because he wins in six, right? And at like 50 years old, and we're just meant to believe that he win.

But there are moments in creed when it's clear that Balboa is still an icon, even in the minds of, like, young people. Like Bianca, like Tessa Thompson's character, like, she identifies Rocky Balboa immediately. Your dad is... Wait, let me get her bad Philadelphia accent just right. Your dad is Rocky Balboa? Why are you giving me that look? When were you going to tell me that your uncle's Rocky Balboa? I'm going to call you.

All right. I'm not going to hold my breath. I didn't even notice that that was a bad accent. She's really, we got to talk about that. She and Joanne Woodward are the two people who, in Philadelphia, Joanne Woodward in Philadelphia, two people who didn't have to. to do it. Right.

But did it. Joanne Wilbert won. Good company. Tessa Thompson. I'm glad you brought. This is a great subject. You don't always have to do the accent. No, you don't always.

Like Chris Hemsworth in the classic Michael Mann movie, Black Hat. You didn't need to do a New York accent. Just be Australian. One of my best friends is a really serious black hat person. Is it Chris Ryan? No, it's my friend Eric Hines. Chris Ryan tries to pretend he's not a black cat person. But if you ask him any question for that movie.

By the way, shout out to the homie, Chris Ryan, who was supposed to be in this and had to go away. And we're doing without him. I'm holding it down for Philly, Chris Ryan. I knew this was like a top five rewatchable as he wanted to do. I'm like the RC Cola to Chris's Coca-Cola. This is a really a cut rate. I shouldn't be here. But I'm happy to fill in the slot.

I actually would have bumped this, but the Eagles beat the Pats. And he's had a weird smirk on his face for three weeks. So fuck that guy. So Creed. The most interesting thing about this movie is that Sly gave up the steering wheel. Didn't write it. Didn't direct it. He's not the star of it.

He's in it. It's great for him. I got an expendables. I got another expendables to try to write. Giving the re-letting Kubler take the race. That life through the station. The response here is thank God. I mean, thank God.

Oh, sorry. Yes. Thank God that Sly bought into. to Ryan Cougler's vision and agreed to let him do this movie. Imagine Sly trying to direct this movie. It would not work. So on the one hand, an unbelievable stroke of luck that Sly didn't just say, there's no way you're doing this unless I get to write direct it.

The second stroke of luck is they stumble into Ryan Cougler, who's only made one movie, who is I think 28 years old at the time, and who now that we are looking at the first three movies that he's made, is clearly one of the most talented directors we've had in like the last 35 years. And he's just randomly doing a sports movie. He's like so overqualified to do a sports movie. And it's great.

And I think that's the biggest reason it's special is because he's great. I think that, I mean, I don't know why Slice Stallone sort of let Ryan take over. But I appreciate that Ryan Cougler. I think Slice Stallone is a good actor, but not always. But I think that his performance in this movie is beautiful. Yeah. I agree. I actually disappointed he didn't win.

I'm disappointed, too. Because I think maybe it's good that he wasn't directing. So you could just focus on, you know, bearing the weight of the history of this franchise in this movie, but in a way that's really sad. But beautiful. I think that the connection between the two of them is romantic is a weird word, but more romantic to me than the connection between.

It's romantic. It is romantic, right? And can't you see the off-screen? on screen parallel to between, you know, Adonison and Rocky and Ryan and Stallone. And there's definitely something correlative between those two things. Ryan talks about it. When I had MBJ in my pod in 2015 and he said this was a really personal movie for Ryan because his mom had died of cancer, he had just lost his dad.

And that part of the story really resonated with him. During the filming, Slice Stallone lost his son. And there's a scene when, uh, where, And Adonis moves into Rocky's house and he's in Polly's room. And there's a picture of Slicel and his son. And they do a close up of the picture. And that was a really big scene behind the scenes apparently. Slice Stallone did not want to have the picture in there.

It was too emotional for him. They talked them into it. They explained to him why they thought it was important. They played it a certain way. And if you look at like his eyes in that scene, like he's really upset and you feel it. And it's just cool. I mean, there's a lot of little stuff like that that only a really super great director, I think,

would be able to pull off. And that's why it's a special movie. I, Stallone is a really interesting, I mean, this is this. Let's have the Stallone conversation. This should go without saying. But Sylvester Stallone, what an interesting movie star. The biggest star, you can't get bigger than he was from like 82 to 86. You can't, as a movie star, you can't.

82 to 80, you're not going to, you're, would you go back a little farther? No, I'm just saying by, by 82, it's not a fluke anymore. Right. Oh, right. He is consecrated as. He has Rocky 3 and First Blood in the same year, basically. Yeah. And that whole run he had all the way through 86, it was like he was the biggest star in the world by far.

Yeah. And, and, and compelling in some way, like despite against all odds, this is something that'll tell you something about, about Hollywood, of their determination to just let white men win. Yeah. Like against every odd, imagine a black semester Stallone. Who would that be? Just pick somebody with all of... Carl Weathers?

Oh, well, no. Because Carl Weathers, when he speaks, I can understand what he says. Carl Weathers is conventionally handsome. Sure. The problem with Carl Weathers is he doesn't have the thing that Stallone has, which is he's not charismatic. in the way that Stallone is. I mean, you can see it in the movies

when he and Carl Weathers are together. Like, Carl Weathers is everything you'd want in a movie star, but he's missing the secret sauce that Stallone has. Stallone, I don't know. Is Stallone a good actor? I think he's had the capacity of being a good actor. Yes. I think he's good in First Blood, which is nobody,

everybody thinks of those Rambo movies now. It's just he's in Vietnam. You lie to me! First blood, the monologue's a good movie. Yeah, no, I mean, it really is. And his monologue at the end is like really good. It's a movie that's been also just like recontextualized and people think it's different than what it really is. It's supposed to be, you know, an anti-war story about what happens to people who get too close to violence.

And it changed when First Blood Part 2 came out because then that changed what that movie was supposed to mean. First Blood's a movie about the Vietnam War is happening and people are protesting and then the Vietnam War veterans are coming home and they can't fit back in whatever society is. Right. He's great in copy. Which I bought Hopeline and Sinker. I like Copland and this this rocky performance is very close to the Copland kind of Stallone. I'll just say one thing. I grew up in a household that was really big on the Lords of Flatbush and Paradise Alley. Those were like two big movies that my mom showed me when I was a kid.

Your mom just voluntarily showed those to you? Yeah. Well, that's why I am the way I am now. Man. I got the letter. Oh, that's not as good. But so I think when you see Paradise Alley and you start to believe in like the mythology of him, not as a movie star, but as a person who can like invent his own career and life and point of view. And he wrote and he writes and directs movies. And the Rocky mythology is Sylvester's Thun couldn't get a movie, couldn't get a movie star part. So he wrote a movie star part. And he made Rocky into this thing. And it's, I'm sure his unconventional handsomeness and charisma and and male whiteness was a factor. But. Well, not. the whiteness part. That was like, you know, Britain into the ether. Right. It's like, you know, that wasn't like a look.

There's some, yeah, there's definitely some racial shit going on out with the Rocky thing, which I did not say. Well, see, Claudel, signor, I mean, when it gets to Rocky 3, it's like. When it gets to Rocky 3. I'm saying Rocky Run and Rocky 2, it's there. It's undeniable. But Rocky 3, it's like, let's just own this. Oh, well. Let's make this super. Like clubberlangs basically, they're retiring. His name is Clubber Lang, by the way. Clover Lang and he's telling Stallone he's going to have sex with his wife.

He's a, hey woman. Hey woman. It's like that's when they're just like, fuck it. Let's go with this. Before we get into what Coogler is quite, I would say audaciously trying to do with Creed, let's just stay with Stallone for a little bit longer. Go on. Twist my arm.

Cliffhanger's a good movie and Stallone's really good movie. There you go. My first two hot takes of the dead. I don't think that's a hot take. He's a movie star. Cliffanger's a legitimately good movie. It is. So is, what's the tunnel one?

What's the tunnel one? Daylight. Daylight's also a good movie. It's Cliffhanger in a tunnel. I love. You're rooting against all the people he's trying to save because they're so annoying. But at some point.

Everyone in that tunnel should have died. Yeah. But at some point, you know, you know, what happened is that like he created, he helped create something. He created the act, the American action star. And then he made it possible for all of these sort of weird-looking guys in the 70s

to become, for more weird-looking guys in the 80s to take over our action movies. Schwarzenegger, Van Dam, Seagall. All of those guys. None of those guys is really good-looking. I mean, in the way that we think of movie stars, it's a holdover from the so-called ethnics of the 70s, of which Stallone was one. And Salone and Rocky was basically doing Brando,

except he, like, by Brando standards, couldn't act, but he had a kind of Brando animal magnetism. And that's what he played. Yeah, I think the best example of that is in Rocky One, when he goes to the arena, the day of the fight, and he realizes he's not going to win, and he comes back and he talks to Adrian. And it's like, it's not a very well-acted scene,

but he's so likable at it that you're just like, And Talia Shire is kind of carrying him across the finish line. If I could just go to the distance with Creed. He's not great, but it's like I'm so in on Stallone at that point. Yeah. He's not someone I go to for like good acting technique. But maybe that's what surprises me about Creed is that. His performance in Creed is that I don't know technique is the word, but he doesn't.

It's probably the word. He doesn't muscle his way through scenes in the same way. It's very like quiet and very weighty. In a way that I think you don't expect of him. Yeah. I would say Stallone and Tom Cruise are the two actors we've had who always knew who they were. Like Stallone, I don't know if he's ever played. Well, who else could he be?

Well, that's the thing. But here's the thing. Stallone never played a villain. Right? I don't think about that. One time he took a chance was stop. My mom can or my mom will shoot. Although that was a comedy.

But I guess like Rhinstone, he tried to sing. Oh, yeah. And that was with Dawey Part. Can I just to everybody listening? For the most part, he stayed on brand all the time. If you want to see, like, we've only scratched the surface on this. Rhinestone, you've got to see him and Dali Parton and Rhinestone. It's on YouTube.

And they've watched it in the last nine months. And if you want to know what you're missing from your movies in 2018 that you were definitely getting in 86 and 85, 84, why don't you treat yourself a little bit of over the top? I was just going to say, I think I learned about the concept of good, bad movies from Stallone. I thought you were to say, for me, I was so honored. No.

Well, maybe I was drawn to you for that. Because I love Over the Top. Well, Cobra and Over the Top come One Two at the same time. Cobra is actually just a bad movie. They're on TV all the time when I'm growing up. And I watched them over and over again. He was very sexy. And I was so drawn to them, even though I knew that they were kind of bad.

I would watch with my friend Chris growing up over the top over and over again on WPIX on Saturdays. and holy shit that movie is bad and it's amazing. Yeah. It's so fun and crazy and weird. It's an arm wrestling movie. Me too halfway. It's probably the best arm wrestling slash divorce movie. I don't know who the other candidates are.

It's really good. I like that he wins the truck at the end and then apparently his son just gives up. Yeah. He just gives up school. He's just going to travel the country with the son and the truck. They just don't do this anymore. It's great. Although that Hugh Jackman, you might recall in real steel,

was under similar circumstances. Over the top situation. That was over the top. But virtual, like, what do we could rock them, sock them? I don't know what we call them. Gosh. I do think, though, there's certain people from that generation that people love when they come back.

And then other ones who have just kind of run their course. You know, like Tarantino was good at this, right? Like he never wanted to give up on Travolta. Right. And it's like Pulp Fiction Whenever other people fell through And he's just like I fucking love John Chavalta

That guy's still a star I'm bringing him back Yeah We see that from time to time But it doesn't always work Like Arnold Schwarzenegger There's too much baggage now Yeah

But Stallone and Creed You're like Oh I love this guy I'm so glad he's in a good role In a good movie This is It's probably my favorite thing About the movie

It was very similar To Burr Reynolds and Boogie Nights To me Yeah that's like We were ready to love him again Yeah It just needed to be in the right Rapper

Because if I hope he liked being in Creed more than Bert Reynolds. I think he probably did. He probably had a little more agency there too. There's some people I don't feel that way about. I don't feel the way about Bruce Wilson anymore. Wait till you see Death Wish.

Well, I know I'm going to like that, even though you said there's some issues. Well, that's a different rewatchable. There's going to be takes, right? A lot of takes. Yeah. It's a movie of its moment in so many ways. A lot of these people have tried to revivify themselves, right? Like Schwarzenegger has been doing stuff again since he left office.

Jean-Claude Van Dam has been trying to do this post-moder. envision. Steven Seagal is this weird, like, fake news Russian truth are now. All of these guys from that era that Stallone inspired have made an effort. Yeah, Chuck Norris is a political figure and is on TV all the time. Stallone's the only one who's made anything that people are like, that's good. I like that. And Creed is the best thing he's done in the 21st century.

Is it because he's not being a tryhard? I mean, like, I think it's because he's the most naturally talented and always was. I mean, sure, yeah. But I would even add naturally likable. As a Like watching him go through cancer? Do you really? I felt like one of my family members was going to.

I've known Slice Stallone my whole life. I saw Rocky when I was six. There's a naturalism to him that doesn't, that is sort of secretly, technically proficient as well. I mean, you see it and you can see it in Creed. But before we,

let me just remind some people of some things. You might all remember that Stelode, one of the movies he directed was a little, little movie called Staying Alive. And you might recall who the star of staying alive was. A little Mr. John Travolta. And Mr. Stallone talked a little Mr. Tovolta and is spending the last 20 minutes of that movie making.

What I would say is the most amazing bad piece of filmmaking I have maybe have ever seen. In which John Travolta and Fanola Hughes, who all my soap opera fans out there will know, We go to general hospital for a long time. G.H. The two of them, toe to toe in the crazy savage danceoff where Tarvolta is oiled the fuck up. For 20 minutes, they're just dancing. And a loincloth.

And a loincloth. Somehow that was the most homerotic performance he had of the decade because then he was imperfect. He was imperfect the next year. It just... Slice Stallone's vision of masculinity is a whole other podcast. I mean, Sean, he could have done anything, and he chose to make a sequel to Saturday Night Fever in which John Travolta spends 20 minutes in this sequence

oiled up in underwear. You left out the Frank Stallone soundtrack. Did it. Here's my defense of Stallone. I think you throw out everything that happened from 78 to 84. I think everyone was doing so much cocaine. Don't lose Rocky too then?

No, I'm not saying just like the decisions. Oh, I see. I think you just have to assume that there was just an incredible, anytime something doesn't add up, just assume there are amounts of cocaine somewhere near somebody at some point. So before we go back to Creed, I just want to say some other stuff about Salon that's really important to think about. This is, I almost need a shower.

I'm just going to give you some names. And I want you to just, like, that I know this, that I'm about to tell you something that I remember this. And it's been so many years later, Brigitte Nielsen, Jennifer Flavin. Yeah. Do these names mean anything to you? They were their own girlfriends.

Yeah. Why do I know that? I don't know. It's crazy, but that was a thing. At the time, we were all up in his personal life, too. He was like going on Joan Rivers and talking about this stuff. Like people were following him everywhere talking about his love life. He was the biggest star we had.

It was crazy. He made Brigitte Nielsen a star by dating her. Yes. Jennifer Flavin, why do I know that name? Did they sue each other? Wasn't there like a, there's some sort of legal situation too. But I mean. So Cam, you missed all this stuff.

His relationships were news too. How do I love Brigitte Nelson? I'm 30. Yeah. So you, so that's 1987? Yeah. Oh, so you, by the time you started to remember. Stollone he was already like coming back yeah but I mean but my mom like love Stallone um is like I grew up

with a lot of his mom's love his mom's love Salon like I was very familiar I was very familiar but things like staying alive I didn't get to him to like college when someone's like have you heard of this um and like YouTube was just starting and just watching a clip of it and being like what the fuck is this amazing he's a fascinating movie star he's like um like uh the guys who who were in like wrestling pictures in the 30s, you know, where he's just like hired for his brute physical appearance, but then underneath that there's more than you bargained for. He's Wallace Beerie is what you're saying.

Exactly. I think with the Cougler MBJ thing, like, when somebody's that big of a star, they're always going to think they're the biggest star on the set in the room, in the restaurant, wherever they are. That never fades away. It's like my mom's theory of any woman who's pretty when they're 18 is going to continue to think they're pretty for the rest of their life

no, no, they're going to carry themselves from that point on, like they're beautiful. Also a different podcast. Yeah, well, that's my mom's podcast would be, probably get us off, probably bankrupt the ringer. The remommable. Yeah. They're remomable. There's takes and then there's my mom's takes.

But yeah, Stallone, I'm sure it was intimidating for those guys. Cougar was 28. Yeah. MBJ had fruit fail, but wasn't, It wasn't like he is now. And those guys, you know, I'm sure there was a lot of cajoling. I think they both ended up liking them. I think a lot of people had the reaction when this was announced after seeing Fruitvale

and hearing a lot about Ryan's story and his short films were like, this is a huge mistake. This is a major error. Yeah. I put myself in the group. Yeah. I will, I mean, because I'm one to sort of tell people what they should and shouldn't be doing, I was definitely like, why would he do this? Yeah.

But then I just was like, well, why shouldn't he do it? The whole point for me of a young black director having a little bit of agency is to have a little bit of agency. And this is like the story, of course, is that he had been wanting to make this movie for a long time. Yeah, he was like a 10 out of 10 on the Rocky fan scale. Right. Yeah. And totally inspired by Apollo and all that. He wanted to do this before he made Fruitvale Station.

Right. And I just. Yeah, that's it. MBJ told that story on my podcast that they wanted to do it before Fruitvale, but they had no, they'd no cachet at all. And it was still after Fruitvale that they had the cachet to even talk sly into it. But even with Fruitvale, I'm surprised that they had the cachet. Not because Fruitvale isn't good, but because it's a jump.

This is kind of a leap, right? Yeah. It seemed like too big of a leap as it was happening. Now we know the guy's a freak. But you have to also remember what was going on in the industry at that time, too. And all kinds of guys who were making some version of not Fruitvale content or thematic wise. But in terms of making a little movie that you don't know what the person is going to do next, then going on to do something else in Hollywood, like, quote, untested, unquote.

That was a thing that was happening. And so the idea that Ryan Coogler was going to, there wasn't going to be sucked into the machine, but was like trying to find a way to somewhat honestly and truthfully get it like be a part of that machine. Colin Trevor O went from a small movie to Jurassic World. Ryan Coogan went from a small movie to Creed. And the way you choose to fit into a different Hollywood economy is fascinating. I mean, I can only think of one other person who in the tick-tac-toe of the first three films is even close. And it's like Sugarland Express, Jaws,

close encounters. That's, to me, Fruitvale, Creed, Black Panther. But even Spielberg had dual before that. Yes, and he had been directing television for five years. The deal was really good. Duel is great. I really like Duel's great. But like, yeah, that's right. Spielberg had 10 more years experience. Yeah. Kugler,

first film, first feature-length film, second feature-length film, third feature-length film. This is what he was able to do. I would say if we were having the fantasy draft for movie directors for like the next 20 years of their movies, I would say he might be my first pick. I think it's him and Chazelle and Barry Jenkins.

Wait, what are our cutoffs or our timelines or whatever? Just like you're buying stock in the next 20 years of their movies. Under 40? Under 40. But PTA could be in that conversation. He's a little bit older. He's older than 40. You get the next 20 years of his movies.

Right. But what's our cutoff? Is 40 our cutoff? I'm saying from 2018 to 2038. Who's going to make the best movies? Oh, well, I mean, Cougler's in there, Barry Jenkins, Damien Chazel. I think this guy, Trey at where Schultz, I think, I don't know what his next movie's going to be, but that guy is so affint talented. What about the dudes who made good time?

I don't like the Saffty Brothers. I'm just going to say I do not like the Saffty Brothers. I think those guys are total frauds. Oh, wow. And first major divergence. And Eric Hine and Eric Hine. My good friend who's also all in on on on on on black hat loves us at me. We also disagree on this.

I just don't buy those guys. I just don't buy them. You didn't like that time? No, not at all. Wow. But I'm open. I'm open having my mind changed, but I don't like those guys. So you're not excited about 48 hours.

What about 48 hours with with Tiffany Haddish as Regina Hammond? Oh, wow. Yeah. I do. Wait, is that happen? Because, wait, oh, wait, are you, Sean through that one out of, yeah, I got excited. Wait, can I just, and this is, we're, we're down a little bit of a rabbit hole here,

but is, is the point of what you guys just brought up that the Safty brothers are doing 48 hours? Yeah. Yeah. Oh, fuck you, man. That's why I hate good time. Because those guys wanted to make 48 hours. I mean, that movie is like, I'm telling you, man, those guys are frauds. I can't believe this.

And that's, but no, I watch that movie. I watch that movie. And what I'm watching is two guys trying, hey, over here, dude, throw us a franchise, throw us a remake. I don't believe anything about that movie. And I think it's politics are fucked up. That's one thing. But every move in that movie is from somebody else. Sure.

So are movies. Anyway, sorry. Zach, just cut that out and make that a little bit. breakout on our Twitter feed. Wesley Boris goes in the Saptis. Sorry. Let's dive into Creed here. 48 hours.

Most rewatchable Creed scene. Oh. I may have to revive Wesley. The Andre Ward cameo when M.BJ climbs in the ring and decides to take out the whole gym and then Andre Ward shows up.

It's like, no, actually I'm going to knock you out. I just love them. that part. This is tough because I think there's three great scenes in this movie that I really love. And every time I'm flipping channels they're on. I'm really curious to hear what those are. The Creed versus Leo, two-round, filmed in one-shot boxing match. Beautiful.

Is really one of the all-time. I don't know how the fuck they did this scenes. And every time I watch that, I'm just like, how do they do this? Did they, and I remember he talked about it on the pot I did, but now I want to talk about it with him again. Like, did he have to remember every single punch? And then even when he knocks him down, it cuts to MBJ, and then it cuts to Slice Alone.

And then the camera whirls back around. Like, it is just incredible filmmaking. We have to talk about Maurice Alberti, who shot this movie. She's a great cinematographer. And name a movie that you like, she probably shot, like the most interesting looking thing. She did Velvet Gold Mine, the Todd Haynes movie. She did, we don't live here anymore.

A not good movie that is amazing looking. It feels like she cut her teeth on this with the wrestler. And she shot the wrestler. She shot a lot of documentaries. The shoulder ambiance when a fighter's getting ready stuff. But this is a testament also to how good Ryan Coogler is because I think this is a way better shot movie than the wrestler. Oh, I agree. And it's so a magic.

and inventive in how, oh, let's keep going. Because I think this is a good. I think the seven minute reviving Slive from cancer slash training scene slash culminating with the ATVs outside of, outside of Slice house. I'm getting a chill right now. I just got chill. A genuine stand up in your seat. The urban 2015 version of going to fly now 40 years later.

It's so fucking good. Every time it's on, I'm like, I'm just in. I'm in for these seven minutes. And then the 11th and 12th rounds of the final fight are just great. And Sly wants to throw the towel and MBJ does the log. I got to prove him not a mistake. And it just, I just tapping him in the back of the head so he knows how many fingers to see. Everything.

It's just great. It's a great five minutes. Stressful. Yes. I think, I personally think the two round boxing match and one. shot. I think that's the best boxing scene I've ever seen in my life. That's who I would vote for. Here's my, that's

my vote too, and there's a reason for it. We've all seen like hundreds of boxing scenes in movies, hundreds of fights, you know, the Rocky franchise, Raging Bull, tons of scenes. That scene is not only like technically masterful, but when

Stallone gets in the ring and basically gives him the tip on what to do and Jordan's character responds to the tip and knocks him out. And way later. Like a minute after later. It's like storytelling. You know, it's not just that he's a good fighter. It's not just that the movie looks cool.

It's the building the bond, their relationship, trusting each other. And then Bianca jumping into the ring after she wins. And she's like, you didn't tell me you had hands like that. You know, there's that great moment where they like connect. Can I just say something about that line? Wesley didn't like Tesla Thompson. Oh, no. It's not about her.

But it's like that line is so indicative of what it's like to sleep with him. I mean, every time I hear that line, I'm just like, really? That's too bad. You've been missing out, baby. Oh, man. I have no counter-argument. I just can't. I just can't believe it.

They should just put it all out there through his shit in the street. Oh, my God. I'm just saying. Cam, you have the ATV scene, I bet. Oh, yeah, I absolutely love that scene. Another thing I really love, though, is right before the last fight that training, like, not training, but warming. up, like rocking back and forth, like talking him into it.

I think that is phenomenal. I think, I mean, I think the whole movie's phenomenal. He gets the gloves and the trunks. Yeah. Yeah, that whole thing. I also, I mean, I used to like the like the this is a John and that's a John thing. But if her accent's bad, then I can't stand. That's the John thing.

It's a John. It's a now. It's like a seat. He's is John's. This is a John. This is a John. This restaurant was his name. It's a John.

you were John. You got a John? The dude. No. I did see this movie in Philadelphia, actually. I was about to say I didn't see it, but it was with a sleepy crowd. They didn't really, they didn't give me what I wanted. How could you be a sleepy crowd?

Listen, you need to go to Philadelphia sometime. If it's not the Super Bowl and the Eagles in the Super Bowl, they don't care. But there was something about that whole John thing that, like, once you call attention to it, for anybody that hasn't seen the movie and doesn't know what we're talking about, basically there's a Bianca uses the term John to like she just uses it the way you would normally use it like you know that's my John over there

or like oh that John but you need the accent to not if if she had the accent he would never have had to ask what a John was because he wouldn't have really understood what she said but he would have known it just was a weird thing and then she has to explain it and then she has to use the word to explain it Oh man, I love Tessa Thompson.

So what was your most rewatchable? Mine? The one shot box? You guys took mine. No, this is, we're not taking anything. I agree with you guys. I also think that that can't, the scene where he vomits in the ring and you know that he's sick. It is, it is a painterly, it is a sort of Renaissance lighting painting situation.

And how dark the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, it is a, it is a, it is a, it is a, it is a, it is a, it is a, it is a, it is a, it is a, it is a, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the. the background is and how, like, starkly in relief against that background they are. And you don't really know what's going on, but you, I mean, well, you kind of knew. If you've ever been to a movie, you know he's, like, got cancer. But there's just something really beautiful about how that's handled and that the presentation of his illness is happening in a boxing ring. And they put a, they put a fine point on it later, which is basically, I think Michael Jordan basically says to him to get him to go to chemotherapy is something like, you know, if I'll fight if you fight or something like that.

Or I'm not going to fight if you don't fight or something like that. And I just thought that sequence is so, it's just beautiful. Everything. So many things in this movie are needlessly beautiful. This didn't have to look this good. This didn't have to be that professional. Yeah, there's that scene when they kiss for the first time. Kissing is also bad in this movie.

Geez. Really out on Bianca. They flip it around so that their heads are upside down. Right. Yeah. It's just distinct. There's that other shot when they go on the date for the first time. And they're in the booth.

And in the first part of it, he shoots them from the side. So you just see the halves of the booths that they're in. And then eventually makes it like he's doing all the shit in this movie that every time I watch it, I see stuff. Like, oh, that's cool. The first time I saw it, I knew. I just had complete confidence in the movie pretty much from Felicia Rashad,

Fashad's performance in the first scene. Yeah. The way that she talks to Young Creed, like the way that she spaces out her replies and doesn't say, but says in the way that she, in the tone of her voice, like, no, I'm not, you know,

like the sense of history in the way that she performs it. It's like it's a small scene and a small performance, but she also stands out to me. Like she doesn't have to be. to be as good as she is. I very much remember her being in this movie.

I think even before that moment too when they, when we're in the juvenile detention facility and the camera is on like a zip line when it cuts through the hallway. Yeah. Runs in and there's the fight happening kind of in the television area. Like that that's just, it's like more high level than a movie like this had to be. Also, you know what's interesting? When the scene when she goes to meet him, when Felicia Rashad's character goes to see him for the first time in that center, the shot.

The framing of the shot is the camera's on her, and then there's a doorway, and then all the way in a deep focus, out of focus, though, leaning against a wall or a desk or something is the woman, is, you know, the guidance counselor or the social worker or whatever, keeping an eye on the two of them. And that shot goes on for about a maybe a little bit like a minute. Yeah. I just, what a weird choice, but a choice that tells you what the stakes are and what normal operating procedure is in a place like that. Right. It's just, there's so many really good touches. This guy, he's such a good filmmaker. Even the guy at the gym, Leo's dad, who wants Rock to train and Rock's starting to go there.

And they'll sneak him in like Rock will be training Michael B. and you'll see Leo's dad. Just in the background, that you barely notice them, kind of like eyeballing them and watching what's going on. Right. A lot of good touches.

Yeah. A lot of great good touches. What was your pick for the scene? The two-round boxing match I would go with, but I also ride with the ATV scene. Oh, I love that scene. I just think that's so cool. I get so fired up.

It's got a new context with the Eagle Super Bowl, too. And Meek Mill will be in the soundtrack. Yeah, thanks for bringing that up. My kids like Creed. Rocky's too slow for my kids. My kids will... Rocky 3, Rocky 4, they can get through. Rocky 1's slow.

Creed is... That's kind of like their version of going to fly now. You know? It's just the generational aspect of it, I think, is really cool. And could have gone really badly in the wrong hands, you know, where they're like, hey, we should have a hip-hop song here. Like, you're the wrong director? Like, that's an awful scene.

Well, the idea that you would take... you would take Bill Conti's score and keep alluding to it for the whole movie? I mean, it doesn't depart from it. It honors it in so many ways. It's slow motion in that scene, too. Like, that comes, it's playing the meek-mill and you're into it. And then all of a sudden it goes slow-mo and everything stops. And it should get super quiet for a couple seconds.

It's really nice. And also the theme hits as the final round begins. Yeah. You're like, oh, that's so chill. Casting what-ifs. couldn't find any. Usually that stuff doesn't surface for about 10 years

and it's probably all inaccurate in the internet. I think this seemed like Coogler and MBJ and Sly. I don't know if anyone else was like... I assume Tesson Thompson's the only one who was sort of like

they had to audition people and bring people in, right? Yeah, I mean, nobody... She did the best she could with a part she made a bold choice with. Right. Yeah. You know, I mean...

You think she like had a friend from Philly that she was emulating or something? You know, I was thinking about like what made her do it. Yeah. But I honestly think that like that person, that person has to be from Philadelphia in a lot of ways, right? And like making her look like Lisa Bonnet, which is like a very specific Philadelphia type.

I mean, it immediately, I know, I know where she lives. I know kind of what her story is, which is not great. I just, there's a lot. Can you tell us more about how Lisa Bonnet influenced the fashion slash look choices of that year, Lisa Bonnet was everywhere between Zoe Craven. determining that she was going to look like her mother for a little bit. Great choice. Who would object to that?

And Lisa Bonnet's sort of being out with Jason Momoa, like, you know, on the town with her man. Hollywood's weirdest couple. It's weirdest couple, though. I think there's like a 20-year age difference. Anytime there's an age difference like that, I'm always fascinated. I'm delighted by the two of them. They are a, that's a sexy couple. Smart move by both of them.

You can only tell that there's an age difference because you looked it up. Like, I mean, it's not like you can look at them and be like, Oh, Boeh, that's exactly the same. I'm still in love with Lisa Bonnet. I mean, I think America, I think America kind of is too. And I, I would ever Bill Cosby, it's complicated, right? Because of how we know her, but. But I think also what you're saying is like,

she's Angel Hearts, she's a banana. But like her vision of beauty, what she looks like is a very powerful vision of beauty now in 2018. Like that is considered an ideal in Mexico. ways. And she's like a, she's very responsible for that. And we never gave her credit for like how black that beauty was despite the bad accent. Well, no, no, no, well, not Lisa Bonnet. I mean, not Tesla Thompson. Lisa Bonnet. This kick, this did kickstart like a little bit of a Tesla Thompson movement too. I mean, I was, I'm, I'm with her since back in Veronica Mars days. Absolutely. Thank you. She's, she's, you know, Thor Ragnarok. That was a big look for her.

She is going to be an increasingly famous person. She's an annihilation, which is out now. You know, like she's probably going to be a movie star. And that's interesting that this is kind of where it starts. She's going on Westworld. I love Lisa Bonnet and it still kills me that she died in enemy of the state because I don't even like saying. Why did she have to die in the movie? It makes no sense. That's a really good movie by the way.

I haven't seen it in a minute, actually. That's the lost great Will Smith movie. But she was his ex, right? She was his ex, right? They used to death. Yeah, but they had a history. Yeah, why did she die though? Because they couldn't have more.

Morally, they couldn't have Regina King's character and Lisa Bonnet's character. Only one NBC daughter gets to live. It was some bullshit. And it has to be Regina King. We're behind schedule. The Dion Waiters Award. Best Heat Check Performance by a Roll Player. Tough category.

Tessa Thompson, Wood Harris, Andre Ward, and my winners, Cornhusert Wilbon. Oh, they're great. Incredible heat check by the PTI guys, having a whole Apollo Creed conversation. Welcome to PTI, boys and girls. We begin today with the boxing world. Adonis Johnson, a little-known boxer being trained by Rocky Balboa, handed light heavyweight title contender, Leo Sparino, a second-round TKO defeat in Philadelphia last night.

An anonymous source confirmed to ESPN that Johnson is the youngest biological son of Apollo Creed, fact that was kept under wraps because Johnson was the product of Creed's infidelity. The boxing world is excited to have another Creed in the ring, but Wilbon does knowledge of this affair damage Apollo Creed's legacy? Damage his legacy, let's go back for a second a little history on Apollo Creed. I certainly have him right up there

as maybe the best of all time, in the discussion. Did this hurt his legacy? Oh, I don't know, Tony. Unbelievable. I loved it so much. They're my winners. He's like, I don't know, Tony. You know, this is, he made a mistake.

He made a mistake. It doesn't define his career. I'm like, this is great. I'm in an alternate universe with PTI and Rock Apollo Creed. Anyway, that's my choice. I don't know if anyone else could have won. I've won another suggestion.

I think Richie Costa is Leo's dad. Leo's dad was super good. He was really good in the ill-fated true detective season two as like the corrupt mayor of that's right. He looked like he was related to Leo too. He did. He really looked like that was his dad. And Leo is like a real fighter, right?

He's like Gabriel Rosado. But he's just a great like, you just can't trust that guy kind of guy. Yeah. That'd be my vote. That'd be my vote. Wesley? Felicia Rashad.

And I'll tell you, I'll tell you why. Because during that fight, I don't like in sports movies when somebody is not at the sport even. You have to cut away to wherever they are. And that actor is sitting by yourself or like, you know, or some family is like watching this thing. It's a flaw in Rocky, too. It's a flaw in every single sports movie except for C-Biscuit. That's the only movie, Nazi Biscuit. What's the one with, what's the Diane Lane one where she's the owner of?

Secretariat. Oh, right. Secretariat has the best race. Everybody's in different place montages during the event itself. They're so perfectly edited and totally exciting. That's the best example that I can think. I like Secretary. Why?

Because Diane Lane's in it. And I ride with Diane Lane. You know that about me, right, Cam? Yeah. I became a Diane Lane. I had Diane Lane. Season tickets. It's like, oh, she's in the movie.

Great. I got that. I've got a lifetime past, Diana, Wayne. I don't do anything. I was excited for my mom when unfaithful came out. When we do the unfaithful rewatchables, Wesley is going to be out of his mind. We might have to, like, hose him down three different times.

There's a lot going on in that movie, Wesley. There's a lot going on. There sure is. Anyway, Felicia Rashad. So during these needless cutaways, You know, she's like, oh, baby, oh, no. Oh. But then when she hits, when she hits what does it, when, when, when, when, when, when, when, when, when, when, when, when, she's got a little, she got, she got, she's got, she's got, she's got a little, she got, she got, she's got.

Right. She's like, that's what I'm talking about. I'm like, where's this lady come from? She, she got drunk and got real black. Yeah. It was worth it for that. Ryan Coogler, shouts to you, man. Shouse to you.

I didn't vote for her because I didn't like that they dissed the lady who originally played Creed's wife, who had some pivotal scenes in Rocky 4. You mean, like killing her? No, well, she, I mean, I looked it up. She's still alive. No, no, no. Talia Shire is still alive, yes. No, I'm saying Apollo Creed's wife.

Oh. The cutaways, very attractive black lady with the short hair and the short high 80s haircut. Oh, man. And Apollo gives her the look between round one and round. down two and she gives him the nod, no, and then he goes back. I hope they at least auditioned her. Maybe she wasn't good enough. Oh, that's intro.

I hope she auditioned. But if you've got Felicia Rashad, though. I just, what's age the best? You could come up with 30 things here or zero because the movie only came out two and a half years ago. But just a couple. I love the music. Yeah, I love the music. Not just the stuff we talked about, but the da-na-na-da-da.

Yes. No, the score is great. Yeah, just really good. It's really good. I love the scene when he goes to see Rocky and he brings up the third fight with Apollo. That is such like a hardcore. You had to have really loved the Rocky series thing to throw in there. And for him to ask who won and then Rocky says he won.

But I don't know if I believe Rocky. I think he was trying to make him feel good. And that's kind of a thing that we low-key debated for years. You know, like, we kind of indicated it in a previous movie, but never actually answered the question. Who won that? Who won the secret fight? You know, that was just a cool.

It was like a Marvel universe Easter egg, but for the Rocky universe. Really smart. It was a good version of that. Smart to bring that up. I love the 24-7 with Pretty Ricky that they shoot for HBO. Oh, yeah. Yeah. It's like a 24-7.

It's just good. Enjoy it. I also love that he's like, isn't he watching it on his phone in dead? And then they cut to him and he's like imagining a world where he's something like that. It's just really, really smart. Has an aged at all. The filliness of this movie is good. Yeah.

They do a nice job. They did not. They didn't do a lot of cheating. I mean, not enough accents to, but they also were smart, so you don't really know what a Philadelphia accent is. I never knew about the AT. Thompson has one. I never knew about the ATV scene in Philly. Who knew?

That's a weird neighborhood, by the way, for that because black people don't really live in the Kent. They do, but not like that. Tupac's Hail Mary. Yeah. As the entrance music. Yeah. I just really enjoyed it. Well, the other guy's entrance music is.

is also striking that British hip hop duo that I'm not, I, I'll never remember what their phone. My wife said that sounds like the music. My son listens to. The Ricky Collins song. Yeah. And then I like the ending with the steps. Really smart. Probably shouldn't have worked.

Probably one of those things you read in the script and go, oh, this might be bad. And it's not. It's good. And it works. And slack can barely make it up the steps. And they turn around the whole city. It fucking works. Everything that you think on the page would be saccharin in this movie.

isn't and that's like an amazing achievement. I don't know how we did. I've tried to figure out how that happened as consistently as it has in this movie because I just every time I watch this movie and it's been a number of times now because it's just a movie that I just return to because it's so pleasurable. I'm just, I'm taken with how taken I am with the movie that I am so engrossed in all the training montages, things where like in any other movie I'm just sort of rolling my eyes.

You kind of like skip when you're rewatching them? Yeah. I don't need a montage and this movie has. multiple and I just want to stand up out of my seat and just cheer this movie on the entire time. He's just got the goods. He's just got some people just got it. I just want to give one more shout out to Chris Ryan because he's like driving somewhere right now and he's so bitter. So maybe we'll just patch him in at the end of what's age the worst? It's like 12 to 13 minutes too long.

It's too long. It's too long. I don't, but the thing is I don't really have a suggestion for what I don't think he needs to go to Ireland. that many times. I don't know if the cancer death battle needs to go as as long as it does. There's a kind of ambition in its length. I just don't know that it...

I think it actually could have been two movies. Because I think it could have been two 90-minute movies. And the first movie ends with two-round knockout. And the second movie is the build-up to Conlin. Because it actually feels weirdly a little... It's like too compressed right in the second act there where like Conlin's guy comes over to America and they negotiate in this empty restaurant. He's fought once.

Yeah. And it's like, what the hell? How did we get here? And like, Conlin's story is weird because he's about to go to prison and this is his payday last fight and we don't get enough about him. It is too long, but it is also too short to me. Okay. Interesting. That's a, that's a.

Everything else that's too early to say. The Mark Ruffalo, they do! Overacting Award. They knew. We cut those guys loose. This just never gets old. It never gets old. It never gets old.

I don't know. I didn't really feel a lot of overacting in this movie. No, it's one of the movies of it. I don't think somehow we escaped this one. Maybe Jim Lampley? No, Lampley crushed it. Okay. So make sure.

What do you guys think about the scene where MBJ kind of has the showdown before Bianca's concert and the guy who is like, let me get a shot with you for the Graham. Baby Creed. Yeah, and he calls him Baby Creed. That's the one scene where I was like, this feels fake. Like this doesn't feel like.

They needed to be some, they needed, there are two fights that the two of them have that don't need to happen, except that's what these movies do. I was just going to say that, I mean, I wrote, I typed this out.

But I, the thing that I love about this movie is that none of it needed to or had to happen, right? None of it. But, and we haven't really talked about this, but, you know, there's a whole history of the boxing movie. This movie is really reckoning with in that you don't get boxing movies with a black protagonist who's also the boxer. And there just aren't that many.

You can do it on pretty much maybe you won't get past two hands. Bill. Is that true? It's the hurricane. Dixtown too, right? Diggs town, but that. That's like white black. Where there is no white boxer.

There are no white boxers in this. Ving Rames and jail. What was that called? Undisputed. Undisputed. Yeah. Oh, I forgot about that.

First of all, came, don't forget about that. It's really not a bad 1.30 in the morning movie. What's the Sam Jackson movie that I'm not remembering the name of? The Great White hype.

Yeah. Put it this way. There's no movie of just... That's not the one I'm thinking of, though. There's no movie of a young point. poor black kid who just rises out of nothing and becomes the lightway champ or light heavyweight champ. Unless he went to jail or did something terrible and had to, there's no way they're making

that. But it's not just, maybe they will now. It's not just the boxing history, though. It's the rocky boxing history. They don't make that. They're not making that. Maybe they will.

Maybe Creed made almost $200 million. Maybe it's time to, uh, I mean, my question is how do these boxing movies keep getting made where it's like, you know, shout out to Jill and all but how does Southpaw get made? Why was that a movie? Why did that come out? Who is the audience for that?

Honestly? Why were people like, like I've won another boxing movie? A lot of people like this movie, but I feel very similarly about the fighter. I was like, I just don't need this. Like, I have seen this a million times. Cinderella Man is another one. Why?

Cinderella Man is another one I was thinking out. Cinderella, that's an insult to me. The, the, I mean, well, it's not because it's historical, but it's like, okay, you've got a whole history of, boxing movie stories to choose from, you're going to choose that one? And how has Joe Lewis not been in a movie? Right. Well, and how has there not been a good Jack Johnson movie?

Like, you're going to go backwards. Those guys are much better. Okay, we're too in. Jack Johnson would be another Netflix series, by the way. Oh, really? There's going to be one or should be one. No, I should be one. There are a lot of Muhammad Ali movies.

There are a lot of, like, visions of that. There are so many black boxers you can do stories you can tell. Like, why is there not a Joe Frazier movie? That's so crazy. Or just make up a boxer. It's there. The Joe Frazier biopic, I think is more interesting than the Muhammad Ali biopic. Yeah, of course.

And they never made it. Absolutely. Also, the Muhammad Ali movie, it doesn't really, it's not the, the thing about when black people get turred into movie figures, real black people, is that you never take, like, you never take the most interesting parts of that person. life, you only take the one that makes white people most comfortable, right? So you can't really tell the Cassius Clay story. We should stop talking about this because I came up with like six ideas for sports movies that I want to read on. Let's take a quick break. The all-new BMWX-3 wasn't built for everyone.

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Show might have a couple of those coming up. And then, of course, Ringer MBA, which is just a fantastic feed. New shows every day and we're really heating up as we head toward the playoffs. Yeah. Oh, and I forgot about the Mask Man show for WWW, especially with WrestleMania.

up. That is all on the ringer podcast network. Speak of the ringer podcast network. We're back. The rewatchables right now. Half Faster Internet Research Corner. Sly was the one who requested that MBJ were the flag trunks from 1, 3, and 4. It was good to see those again. MBJ really got clocked in this movie in the 11th round. And he tells the story on my podcast in 2015. At the end of this podcast, I'm I'm going to run that entire excerpt. Because it's really interesting because Slay basically challenges his manhood and was like,

you got to take one. That's what you do. So is that the one where he, that beautiful sequence where like he gets hit and he gets punched in the fucking face in that scene? That is. Oh, nice. Can I just pause for one second and just say really quickly that like that sequence and the heart shaped herb?

And the montage? You've even seen Black Panther yet. Black Cancer. Oh. Black Panther. But there's a, I'm not going to ruin it for you. I'm not, this wouldn't ruin it at all for you. But when he goes down, when Michael B. Jordan takes that beautiful ballaic fall to the mat.

And there's a montage that he, he is this fantasy montage that brings him back to life. That is basically the heart-shaped herb sequence from Black Panther. I'm just throwing that out. You know that for me. Yeah, that is. Adrian's restaurant scenes were filmed at the Victor Cafe in Philadelphia. I don't go to that neighborhood.

They don't want me there. I don't know how they let Kugler stay. MBJ gained 24 pounds of muscle for this movie. It worked out two to three times a day, six days ago. You know what's crazy about this? When I was watching the movie again, I was like, I think he might have gained 44 pounds of muscle for Black Panther. He's freaking...

He's so much bigger in this movie looking. He's huge in Black Panther. But he has to be able to get. It doesn't like gotten bigger sweaters. Just like clothes haven't gotten? They're all still a little tight. The other ones I mentioned, except for Polly Pinino, said it died in 2012.

It was one of my favorite trivia questions. What was Adrian's maiden name? Was a great one to tell who really knew the Rockies. Because they say it and the priest says it in Rocky too when they're getting married. Do you, Adrian Pernino? So Adrian Pernino and Pauli Pernino. and Polly Pinino.

Polly, terrible brother, by the way. Really, some reprehensible behavior in Rocky One. Rocky One had some reprehensible behavior. There's some, I mean. There's an uncomfortable, the first sex encounter with Adrian and Rocky. I have some questions. Little Rocky. A lot of hair and Little Rocky.

Apex Mountain. Oh. Too tough to say for Coogler, MBJ. Can I say something crazy? Well, this might be the time to have your MBJ conversation. That's what I'm... Okay. Because it is his performance in Black Panther,

which I still have not seen, but I will have seen it by the time people who are this podcast. It's been polarizing. And there's a chance. This creed could be apex mount for him. Who knows? I don't know what the thing. For Cougar or for Jordan?

For Jordan. So most people, I think, first saw him as Wallace on the wire. Yeah, right. Which is a very tragic and important character, basically in TV history. I mean, his murder in that show, and I'm sorry to spoil it for anybody, is the most powerful inciting incident in the first season of The Wire and kind of explains how everything starts to come apart for the Barksdale Empire. And his role in that is just really, really important. And he becomes this vision of lost innocence. And for that to be his core thing.

And then he eventually goes on to Friday Night Lights as Vince Howard. A role that I think is a little bit closer to the Creed Black Panther vision of sort of like defiance, strength, trying to figure out who you are as a man. He's on Parenthood, which our friend Julia Lippman would like us to point out. He had a weird little stretch right after he played Vince on FNL. When he made the Parenthood cameo and it was like, oh, is it going to happen for this guy or not? His Red Tales, he's the third guy in Chronicle. And then for the whole way, it's not.

It's not like we were overflowing with young black actors. No, right. During this area. No. But I do think on Friday Night Lights, when people remember that he was Wallace, I at least was like, this guy's really good. He was great on Friday Night Lights. He was amazing on Friday Night Lights.

Yeah. I saw F&L before I saw The Wire. Like Smash Williams was probably not very good in Friday Night's. He was okay. He's fine. He's, by the way, is the Mark Ruffalo a winner for Friday Loites. He's a lot of they knew moments. But MBJ, you could kind of tell he was something.

But a year later, he connects with Cougler for Fruitvale. And then... And he's a star in that movie, and you know. Yes. Yeah. And then what happens? He makes a Fantastic Four movie. He plays Johnny.

He takes Chris Evans' leftovers and plays Johnny Storm. Well, he's only about that terrible, terrible, that awkward moment role that he took. Well, that's after. I don't mind the movie. Right before Fantastic Four is that awkward moment and Fantastic Four. And everybody's like, oh, my God, is it over for him? But plays like a loser character who's not kind of... That movie's about Miles Teller.

Getting cheated on, basically. Yeah. Do you guys like him in Chronicle? I don't remember him in Chronicle. It's kind of a nothing part. I don't remember. It is, right? Because he's really interesting.

Like, Michael B. Jordan has nothing to do. I feel that way about a few of these, this era for him. Well, that's the era though, right? I mean, that's it. But how much do we blame this for... It's not like there's a ton of... of great roles for black actors under 35. He took a role in a fantastic four movie.

What did you expect? Right. Right. I mean, I'm not... Like, Denzel's first 10 years, there's some shaky ones in there, right? Before he became Denzel. He was in carbon copy.

Okay. That's true. Okay. If you watched that movie, that movie is crazy. He was in virtuosity. He was in that great. Virtuosity is also in glory and cry freedom in his first 10 years too.

Right. I mean, he's got an Oscar nomination really. Reed and Black Panther. Like, he's had some too. But the problem with that comparison, though, Bill, is they don't even make... I'm not comparing them. I'm saying first 10 years, people make mistakes. Right.

But what I'm saying is that, like, Denzel's first 10 years, the mistakes were really interesting. Michael B. Jordan's quote, mistakes, unquote, are conventional and the only options, they're the only options now for almost any actor. Yeah. And so, like, he'll never get to do a carbon copy. He'll never get to do Virtuosity. And he'll, well,

virtuosity is later when Stenzel is pretty, is almost on its way to Denzel. That virtuosity is like 90, it's like mid-90s. It's after Mike, it's after Philadelphia and it's after Malcolm X. Oh yeah, Virtuosity is 95. He has an Oscar. He did Malcolm X.

Oh, no. And he's like, he's a movie star. Virtuosity is Mitch Russell Crow. That's the person that you've never seen before at that point. But Virtuosity, he's a star at that point. And it's a throwaway summer movie that makes more money than you think it did. So what do you think of Jordan? I'm thinking of Rickettsia.

The Adonis Creed, Black Panther, Michael Jordan. I find this guy really interesting. But here's what I'll say. When you see him with Chadwick Bozeman in Black Panther, you, when he's with another actor who is more seasoned than he is, You can see that there's some layers that aren't there, right? Like, watching him with Stallone, like, Jordan is so hungry and so eager. And, like, even his tenderness has an intensity to it.

And Stallone is just, Sloan, there's nothing intense about Stallone in this movie, but there's so much gravitas. And Felicia Rashad, same thing. Michael B. Jordan is so, he's hungry. and he wants, I don't want to say that he wants to win a scene because he's protected, he's working with Coogler. But he understands these characters

or he's attracted to characters and Fruitvale Station is the same thing. Like, he's like Angela Bassett to me, like somebody who is just at 10 all the time. It sounds what you're trying to say is that he needs to play a detective who is recovering from his dead wife

and is trying to get his shit back and then got to cut in a war that he didn't want but he's gonna finish it it sounds like that's what he needs like man on fire what you're describing? I don't want to do a man on fire He's a detective in Chicago

and he picked up the wrong suitcase just sounds like you need him to shoot people and have some fun for a movie. No, no no no I don't want to need anything. I think I actually like him in Black Panther I think I think his, read on that character is an intense read. That character is

so complex. The thing that that movie is asking any actor who plays that Eric Kilmonger to do is reject a very, I mean, we've like, we've all, as a culture, we're only scratching the surface of how fucking politically black this movie is

and the choices that, like, I would say radical choices this movie is making in terms of the black identity it is it is advocating it is going for the sydney praudier position which to me is wildly radical it does not go with what michael b jordan is meant to represent and and michael b jordan's read on that part as an actor is to play it with maximum intensity he's not he we we understand the cliche that this character is this is a guy who is almost literally from like boys in the hood north and what happens what happens to like to boys in the hood north uh in the american sort of military industrial complex this guy is what happens right and that's the thing that he's playing now whether you think he's good playing that or not it's just so different from everybody else in the movie who and we this conversation has come up in the times that we've been talking about this sort of thing that's sort of thing that's with black actors and casting. But everybody else in that movie in Black Panther just about is a, is, I don't know what Michael

B. Jordan's background is as an actor from a training standpoint. But everybody else in that movie just about is a classically trained de Guint de Yale, Winston Duke, Mbaca. That's not his. Yeah. Mbaca. Yale trained actor. Everybody in that movie is a classically trained actor.

actor. And Michael B. Jordan, I don't know what his training is. We know he was a child actor. But he's playing, but what he brings to this movie is so specific. This guy sounds like he comes from somewhere. And he's, he's bringing a backstory as an actor and he's bringing, he's playing this character's backstory. And I, I don't know. What I would like to see is him go away, work with some other directors, and then come back to Cougler. I don't think, I think they should keep working together because that's exciting to me. But I would like to see what a great director who isn't Ryan Coogler can make him do

and then steal all that shit and go back to Coogler. I've seen something. That's quite a monologue. Sorry. There's been a lot of... This is Scorsese De Niro territory now between these two guys, that they should continue to explore the depths of what they are.

And also, in the same way that Coogler is applying, you know, his own personal experiences and creed about his relationship to his parents, absentee father, the death of his mother, all these big themes, there's only one character in Black Panther that is from California. And that's where Ryan Coole was from. And that character, and it almost, you can make an interpretation that there's something about which political choices Ryan Cooleer is making, how he sees the world in the way

that he draws that character. Like, that's a huge responsibility for Michael B. Jordan to be the avatar for those choices. I think it fucked them up a little bit, too, after he finished the movie. Like, he got really into this part. I think it's a dark part. You have to act it and you're a black actor acting that part. It's a dark place. It's a dark thing to occupy.

He hasn't really talked about it, but I think he's had issues with it. It's the most serious, most real thing you'll ever see in a Marvel movie. Do your point about him being the avatar of Ryan Cookeller's ideas? I think also what I like about Ryan Cougler is that when I listen to interviews with him, like people complain about Michael B. Jordan's last. of refinement in a movie like Black Panther when he's surrounded by all these classically trained actors. But what I like listening to Ryan Coogler is, I don't want to call it a lack of refinement, but he communicates in interviews differently than highly, highly media trained people of similar

talent. And that's interesting to me. He's interesting to me as a figure in that way. As our producer, Zach Mack would say, he is so bay. He sounds like he is from the bay. And I love that. And I love, and I think that's some of what I see. sense also in Michael B. in Michael's performances, it's just this, this kind of outsider approach these things that I think is exciting. I get why people think it's not, you know, it's not Shakespearean or whatever, but I, I think he's exciting. Oh, fuck those people. I don't know. Like, come on, man. Like, there's more than one way to do Shakespeare, dude. Come on. The Scorsese-Dinera thing is not fair to Michael B. Jordan.

Well, just as an archetype, though. I mean, no, no, I know. But I think that's getting thrown around a lot and you know De Niro might have been the best actor of the last 35 years other than Daniel de Lewis or 40 years whatever and I think Michael B. Jordan's a really good actor but De Niro's well was he that a hall of famer that actor because Scorsese and Paul Schrader and whomever else were putting him in a position to have the opportunity to become that actor yeah I mean he was accomplished I'm not saying he wasn't accomplished proves his chops at that point no no doubt right if you don't get taxi driver raging bowl you don't maybe and New York, New York, and any number of other things,

you just, you may not think of him in the same way. You just, the taxi driver, like, just changed movie acting. Yeah. And that's, that's in part of, a big part of that is the point of view of the filmmakers. And that, that's a power that a filmmaker can imbue in a performer. And yet, what was my favorite dinner performance, Wesley? Is it Cape Fear? No, Midnight Red.

A Minute Run! Of course, yeah. I'm sure. That's fair, though. That's good. He's so good in that movie. He's so good in that movie. Sean's looking sad at me.

It's fine. I love men I run. It's like that's a ludicrous opinion. I said it's my favorite performance. I just love the era of that movie. He said it's his favorite. I didn't say it was his best.

I didn't say it was his best. They're synonymous. No, it's not. It's not synonymous. Okay. Not synonymous at all. Okay. Pick of Nits quickly.

We're skipping over the unintentional comedy word because I didn't really see anything other than the, we talked about the scene where baby creed. That's borderline unintentional comedy, but not totally there. It would have been funnier if the rapper was played by DJ Khalid. Then it would have been unintentional comedy. That's a totally different Philadelphia, by the way. Pickin' Nits.

Apollo's old trainer, Duke. He was the only guy there in Rocky 4. I don't know why they couldn't have brought him back for a cameo. He's still alive, I checked. Rocky's lymphoma battle. Cheap? Cheap? Cheap?

Kind of ran through it a little bit fast. Quick recovery. Quick? Oh, sure. That's a tough one, right? That's months and months on end. I don't know if you're flying to Europe and being the trainer in a fight, like a few weeks later. It's part of the reason why I was like this should kind of be two movies.

Like, that's a big arc. I think that's fair. Creed's closed left eye in the 12th round. It's lower than the right eye. I mean, this is like I'm really picking nits now, but it's just too low. It's like the makeup designers messed it up. My big nitpick, though, pretty Ricky. Conlin's just not in shape.

But he's a real boxer, though, right? Not that that matters. Get in fucking shape, Rick and Conlin. He's the fucking gut. He'd pull his trunks up over his belly. Here's what I would say to that. He's barely in shape. Here's what I would say to that.

He's a light heavyweight champion of the world. It's unbeatable. What if Michael Jordan is just in too good? No. Ricky Conlin should have skipped some slices. In fairness. Creed is in better shape visually than Andre Ward in the movie. And we know Andre Ward is.

Listen, I'm just picking nits right now. You go look at Ricka Conlin. That dude has not seen a sit-up in like five years. That guy, that fighter, was held the WBC Lightway title. Until he started eating. During the movie. No, I mean, I just feel like Michael B. Jordan is throwing off what an actual boxer's body looks like. But don't actors always do that in boxing?

That's how we're supposed to know they're supposed to be good. I can't even hold in South Oz. Just. Yes. Ebs don't make a great box. Best quote, I would say, want to prove him not a mistake or whatever. That part's just great. I don't know if you guys have another favorite quote.

It's a really good one. Would this movie have been better with Danny Treo? I mean, I don't. This is also my favorite category because every movie is better with Danny Treo. But this one, a lot of ways to go here. How is he not in the corner? Just put him in the corner. He's a cut man.

He's a cut man. Could have been in the beginning scene in the juvenile attention center. could have been the security guard. Maybe he's Leo's dad. Could have been Leo's dad. That's what I was thinking. That was a big home run swing. I like that.

No disrespect to Richie Costa, the god. Danny Trao could have eyeballed him a few times. Yeah, there's a variety. And a boxing movie without Danny Treo almost feels like we did something wrong. Could we have recast Rocky as Trejo? Interesting. Probably unanswerable questions. I only had one.

You know I'm a lunatic. Trying to figure out the timeline of Apollo fathering Adonis. So he fights, Michael B. Jordan was born in 87. So let's start there. That was 18 months after Apollo died. He fights Drago, comeback fight. He's training for like those two months. That's summer 85.

Those are great training months. So he probably would have had to have the illegitimate child right around there during the training. Nine months pass. Does he go to Russia, though? No, Slice the Lung goes to Russia. To avenge. Right, right, he's dead at that point.

I'm saying he fights Drago in Vegas. Right, right, right. It was supposed to be an exhibition, Wesley. I totally forgot about it. Through the damn towel! So Creed in this movie, because it came out 2015, he has to be at least 29 years old because we know Apollo died in 1985 in the summer.

So he can't be younger than 29. My question for you is, that seems late. Because usually a boxer who makes it that late is usually somebody who came out of jail. That seems late is not a question. How long is he doing the stuff in Mexico? Like, how long is he fighting on the side? It seems like he went to college.

He had some weird accounting job. Yeah. And then just gets into boxing at age 28. This is like more than a nitpick. I think we know, I mean, they said that he had 15 fights in Mexico, right? Yeah, 15. We know that he's been fighting for at least a few years. I mean, there's no way he's fighting every month doing that.

So he's been out for a little while. All right. I'm just, listen, I'm not protesting. I just want Cougler to know if he's listening because I know he tried to, he was like, no crazy person will try to figure out the timeline here. It's why you know,

I try to figure it out. Do we know that it's supposed to be happening in 2015? Oh, good question. Did they say that? The music, I mean, the music will tell you everything you need to know. We had meek mill in 2012. They could have come, you're saying go back like four years.

Just go back four years. He's 24. It's not the meek mill part. It's the music she makes. Oh, true. The giveaway. That bad FK. Twigms.

I was about to say. Very F-K-A. That is actually one thing that is not aging well. Yeah. Is her Bianca's artistry, I would say. They tried to make her not the conventional girlfriend by giving her a hearing aid in a music career. But she really was the conventional girlfriend.

But then she could cook up a dinner too. I have not seen food look like this in this house ever. Yeah? Yeah. You know, usually everything I has is sauce with something on it. It's kind of. Oh, Bianca, nobody's cooked in this house for so long. It's so nice.

This is really, nobody's cooked a meal like this in so long, Bianca, thank you so much. I forgot to mention one scene that I really liked when they do the thing where Adonis is really pissed off, and he's in jail, and so I go see him. He's like, fuck off, old man. The way Sly plays it, or he kind of slow plays it, and he's like, okay. but it's really good. It's good acting. He's really good at this scene.

Slash Stallone is good in this movie. He's so good. Which leads us to who won this movie. One of the tougher ones we've had. I'll go first. Okay. You know why I can't say Slash Stallone wins this movie? Because he didn't.

Because Slash Stallone won a Golden Globe and gave a effed up speech. Yeah. I didn't think that's cool. I think that's why he didn't win the Oscar. Honestly, I think stupid. Stupid stuff like that matters to enough people. He might have lost that Oscar by two votes. Who do you lose it to again?

Two black votes. The only two he could have gotten. Thanks, Academy. Cougler should have been the first person he thanked. Yeah. First off, I wanted to make Ryan Cugler. It was very weird. It was very weird.

I didn't like that either. But I love Sliced alone, so I've looked past it and I pretend it doesn't happen. It's a blip, but it's not into. It's a pretty big blip. Yeah. He seemed apologetic. So you think Coogler won or Michael B? I think Coogler.

I'm going with Coogler, too. Coogler. I think, yeah. I think this was impossible to make this movie great, and he did. It could have gone wrong in about a hundred different ways. And I think with Black Panther dressed out, this as the movie that gets him that nod, it's, yeah, I think he does. Sean? Sylvester Stallone lost the Oscar to Mark Rylance for Bridge of Spock.

Oh, God. I mean, that's like a fuck you. I don't think that's going to age that well As much as I like Mark Rylans And if Chris Ryan were here He would be like you have to respect Mark Rylance I don't Who doesn't respect Mark Rylance?

Another reason I'm glad Chris Ryan isn't here Other than the little smirk on his face He also triumphed over They knew Mark Ruggler was nominated For the best sporting actor That was a mistake It has to have to have to be Ryan Coolewer

I mean I don't I'm not sure that I don't think Black Panther happens in this way if he doesn't have success with this movie. Not just that he made a great film, but he made a great film that people wanted to see and loved. You know what's interesting to me, though? I watch a movie like Creed, and I see a guy who I think is just going to make some really interesting movies.

I think Black Panther, I don't think Black Panther. I think politically and thematically Black Panther is going to be of a piece with the other things. And I'm already, like, seeing Creed and seeing Black Panther. There's a lot of, you know, he's interested in, in paternity and masculinity. The combination of those two things matter to him. I mean, Fruitvale was about a young father who basically lost his life, right? I think these, I think there'll be themes that will unite these movies.

But I think this guy is going to go off into so many interesting directions. And I also, I'm going to cry if like just formulating this thought. But like it used to be that I would say if somebody would give him a chance. But we're somehow magically in a time where Ryan Cugler doesn't need somebody to like give him a chance in the way that I would have had to say it five years ago, four years ago. He might beg to differ about that. But I don't feel industry wise if that's the case. That was an adorable speech. I agree with you 100%.

And at the same time, I do worry that Netflix is going to be like, I love Creed, I love Black Panther. Hey, Ryan Coogler, here's 330 million develop stuff. Yeah. Make some things and just give him crazy amounts of money to, you know, remove his incentive to be great, basically. That's my fear. The good news about Black Panther probably making like $2 billion, though, is maybe that will change. Maybe he won't be, maybe he won't need to do. take Netflix's $330 million.

I mean, I'm telling you this guy is going to make some really interesting old school, like moral dramas. This guy is going to make some really good social comedies. I mean, he might make another Black Panther movie, but I think that Black Panther doesn't need Ryan Coogler. Do you know what I mean? In the way that he's, you know, his start. He is my number on traffic.

The position he's in right now is a little bit of the crisis of the modern young director because the industry forces will try to compel him to make Black Panther 2 because Black Panther 2 is literally on track to be one of the five most successful movies ever made. That is... It hasn't even had a script yet. That's insane. And Marvel will want him to do it and Disney will want him to do it. And in many ways, the culture will want him to do it because they'll want more of this. But I completely agree with what Wesley said.

in him you know he has these compelling, powerful stories that are probably smaller and are probably less bound by the conventions of a cinematic universe, a Lexus tie-in, all of this kind of corporate shit that surrounds big-time movie making now. And I'd love to see him kind of ungirded from that. What if what if he said, I'm making Black Panther 2 and they're paying me a ridiculous amount of money and I'm going to use that money to once and for all create the great black movie production house and my mission over the next 25 years is to completely change the paradigm that we've seen

well he's already doing that though but he's not doing it in like the shonda rhymes I'm changing shit and I'm building a whole company but I think he's able to not have to do that though because shonda rhymes is doing it and because Ava Duverne I mean I feel like I feel like he is safe

to not have to be paradigmatically responsible do you what I mean I feel like he could he is free I don't think you should be responsible but maybe I the thing is that's in play there's five different scenarios in play and they're all really cool Yeah whatever whichever way it plays out is gonna be awesome I just don't think that it has to be as explicit as that right? Like I think I mean I definitely think that obviously you watch his work and you you are you the last shot of that movie is basically oh wait I won't ruin black panther for you He's definitely committed and you can see it in his work he's thinking about the future because Sean didn't want him to make black panther too

It's not that I don't want him to make it Frankly I'm not in a position where I should be telling Ryan Coole or what to do I think you are you're the editor-in-chief of the ringer Every choice he's made has been the right one And if you would ask me after Fruitvale Should he make creed? I would have said no and I would have been wrong Yeah so I don't think that my authority matters at all

But I do think that he is He is a product of and also in defiance of like where Hollywood is right now And there's never been a black filmmaker who has had as much cash and power in his next choice as he does. And that is, it's just, it's an amazing moment. Well, let's think about really what this, like, what is extra amazing about this moment. What you said is 100% true, but number two with a bullet is Jordan Peel and number three with not a whole bullet, but like right behind him is Barry Jenkins.

Yeah. That's. And depending on wrinkle of time, Ava, but Ava, I think it's just a different thing because she's proven, she's, I mean, Ava. of it is all about proving and barrier breaking. But I think also she's just, it's just a different thing with her. I think of her as a much more sort of industrial-minded person. And she's not, she's not, she's not, her, I don't know, her assent is, it's just a different thing.

I think part of it is she's made more movies and she's had a little bit of a longer lifespan here. Yeah. And where she is, and where she started versus where she, wow, is, is winding up. is pretty much Ryan Cougler's trajectory, right? I mean, it's not dissimilar from what he did. I just find her much, she's much more established, both in the industry and in, well, in the industry and in the culture, than those other three people as filmmakers.

But I do think it's cool. We're taping this mid-February, a little toward late February 2018, like a week before the Oscars. And last year, I remember we did a podcast where we were super worried about movies. Remember, there was this whole argument about streaming, ruining movies, all this stuff. Now it feels like we've hit a really exciting moment for just filmmakers, for the types of choices that are out there. I really like 2017. I didn't love all the movies, but I thought they were all interesting.

Like, I didn't like Shape of Water, but I'm glad it happened. I have a theory about this. It's really cool. I'll do it very quickly. Moonlight winning changed the trajectory of Hollywood in a million ways. And one of those ways, it's a little bit like LeBron coming to the NBA when we had a huge down moment and we didn't know who the next superstar was going to be. The NBA was kind of bad and weird for five years. It picked up a bad reputation.

And then a movie comes along that captures imagination. It's not a massive hit, but it kind of shows a way forward. And putting Barry Jenkins in a huge spotlight, I think has started to re-contextualize what can happen. Now, obviously, it's a 100-year story of progress. but that movie's success. It's a 400 years story of progress. Yes. I'm talking about the film industry.

I know. Not the story of America. But yes. And I think because of that now, it's amazing to be able to say, well, there's Ryan Cooghler and there's Jordan Peel. And the Safty Brothers making 48 hours

with Tiffany Haddish. Yes. Is she really not? Is she in the movie? No, Sean made this up. I'm just passing it all. Can I just, but Sean, I agree with you, but I'm also still depressed, as depressed now as I was last year, too.

Why? Because there's just a whole kind of movie that I know we all like that doesn't exist. And I feel like they keep making them and people and they don't do as well as people, quote, need them to do. But I feel like Roman J. Israel could have been made in 1989. I feel like Molly's game could have been made in 1995, right? That's a movie that would have come out. That's a movie that came out every week. But won't because for X, Y, Z number of reasons.

But I miss that kind of movie where there are like no stakes. There was nothing riding on Roman J. Israel. It was just free to have. I was watching the game with the- David Fincher's game. Yeah. Such a fucking weird movie. But that's like, they're not making that movie anymore.

They're not doing that now. Who's our like Sydney Lumette, really? The 60 brothers would tell you it's them. As time goes on, the thing is that audiences don't have a relationship to movies like that. And so the reason that Molly's game in Roman J. Israel don't do that well at the box office is because they don't even know how to respond to them. Young people don't know what a movie in 1989 looked like. And so there's no appetite for them. They've been meant to understand event movies.

That is the culture of the last 10 years. We're not in that moment. That's why Black Panther is such a hit because it threads the needle of everything. It has an amazing idea, an amazing cast. is about something. It's also in a Marvel rapper. That was the savvious choice of all time. Yeah.

No, it's brilliant, corporate-wise. But, I mean, for movie culture, I really, I'm sad. I mean, I'm sad. I'm no happier. I mean, I'm happy about, like, movie to movie, but I'm kind of sad. There's been too many superhero movies. You just got to shake that off. For me?

No, just in general. Oh, well, I don't know. We just got to get over the superhero. I think Black Panther really proves that you. The superhero movies... Yeah, that was a good superhero movie that I haven't seen yet, but I trust everybody who's seen it. But, like, Wonder Woman, people are like, this is a really good movie.

It's like, none of these movies are good. There are no good, so... They're well-done versions of shit superhero movies, but they all suck. I think there's a lot of B-pluses and B-minuses. Right. I think they're not... They're none of... Very few of them are terrible enough to warrant, like,

weren't me as a critic saying they shouldn't make them. They're all fine. But there's, there should be... I don't, this is not about superhero movies per se. It's about the lack of imagination that's gone out of the movies as a result of the superhero movie. You're right. I'm not mad at the superhero movie.

You're like, Logan's good and it was. You know what they said about Logan though? I don't think it needed to happen. But didn't everybody who thought Logan was good, like call it a movie? Like, I mean, for like 45 minutes, Logan is basically a Clint Eastwood movie from 1985. It's straight up, like, not a superhero movie.

Not a guy with mutant powers. It's like... It's like... It's like heartbreak raves. It's right. Yeah, I mean, it's just from that era. And I think that's what people, that's what people liked about it. But in a weird sort of farcical way,

it was also a superhero movie. You know? And I just, that's... The best romantic comedy I've seen in 20 years was opening... I'm not 20 years, but opening minutes of Wonder Woman. I mean, when she gets out of the... Great biceps on Robin, right? No, no, not the

Temis guarantee. No, no, I'm just, you brought a Blenormin. I just want to put that out. Zach Mack, since you had to listen to us for two hours. You watched Creed yesterday, right? Is your mic on? I watched it. I watched it a couple weeks ago. Who won the movie? It's a controversial take, I suppose.

I think Coogler won it for Stallone because... Oh, that's the best take yet. Yeah. Coogler not only revives Stallone's career as an actor and gets them nominated. for best supporting, but he revived the Rocky franchise, which was dead. So Stallone gets two victories out of this.

And we should mention Creed 2 is allegedly Creed against Draghi's son. And Ryan Cougler is not connected. Right. They do. It was going to be Slice Stallone for like five minutes. And then I think... Is it a safety, bro? I might have nudged that one out.

So anyway, thanks for listening to Rewatchables. Thanks to Cam Collins. Thanks to Sean Fennacy. thanks to our old friend Wesley Morris, who's devastated over this 48 hours news, but you'll be fine. You'll get over it. Subscribe to the rewatchables, tell your friends about it.

We'll be back with another one soon. Hey, I promised you at the end of this that we would run the Michael B. Jordan story about getting punched for real and creed. This is from the podcast we did in October 2015. If you want to listen to the whole thing, it is very easy to find on Google. It's on Apple.

It's on Stitcher, all the places you would get your podcast. but here's that story right now. But so I'm glad that you felt you had to honor the tradition of actually. But it seems like so you, did I show you the video? Which one? I'm going to show the video. I'm going to actually getting like this one slow-mo shot. It was the one where you spit the blood?

I remember that. Yeah, yeah. I showed you that one, right? No, but I saw the movie. No, but I didn't show you like the actual hit like in real time. Oh, no. Oh, man. What happened?

I mean, well, the first couple times we tried to do it. We tried to do it with slips, you know? And it's in slow-mo. so you can see the misses, the space between the punches. So all of a sudden you just hear this snickering from the corner. And everybody's like what? And then this slide is like, man, you got to take it. And like, what do you mean?

He's like, no, you got to take a real punch. Like pretty much like, you know, I had to really get hit. And legally, Ryan, he would definitely tell you this. As a director, he can't legally say, you know, take the punch. So I had to like willingly, like, you know, step up and be like, all right, I'll take the hit. But I definitely got peer pressure. All right.

Let me see this. The favorites. That's a little slice to them on the back. Yeah, man. So my favorite movie is Dead Man Walking. I just happened to have to starve the sequel. Dead Man Walking Twice. Because the first time we did the punch,

his left glove was in the way. So you couldn't see it connect. So we had to do it all over again. But this is the second time. So you guys are practicing the right here. And action. Oh. Oh, yeah.

Oh yeah Who was applauding? Everybody in the audience So you got punched in the face And people like Yeah, yeah, yeah, okay That was great Because they replayed it in slow-mo

on the jumbotron So everybody can see it To see it whether or not It's got a hit a night And just their reaction was like Oh And like the way Like the, I'm not trying to

I don't want to spoil it for anybody But No, it's The hit is pretty epic During one of the fights And there's a couple fights In the movie So we're not saying which

Yeah But it's pretty epic So did he take So the other boxer, we won't say who it was. Yeah. Was there a specific part of your face that he had to punch? Yeah, he went high. So like your cheekbone.

Yeah, he didn't go for a jaw. Because jaw, you could break your jaw. Exactly. But you go here, you maybe get a little shiner, and that's it. Exactly. But if he misses by like a quarter inch... That's my ass. Yeah.

I mean, I was smelling canvas, though. I mean, it was... Did you get a little punchy? I didn't get... With the NFL concussion spotters would have... Like you keep filming the scene? I mean, I definitely know what they say when you see stars now. I know that expression.

Right. It's not, it looks like little, I mean, the best way I can describe it is like if you put, you know, something under a microscope and you saw a little like microscopic little things just like floating around and like in the petri dish. That's kind of what you see. And just don't go towards the light. I just said don't go towards the light. Thanks to these guys.

Thanks to ZipRecruiter, the 2018 presenting sponsor of the Bill Simmons podcast. My listeners can try it for. at ziprecruiter.com slash BS. Don't forget to go to the ringer.com. Don't forget about the ringer podcast network. And don't forget to go through this rewatchables feed. If you like this one, go check out the other movies we've done.

I think we're in the 25 to 30 range at this point, including Miami Vice that Chris and I did, even though we're not even sure it's a rewatchable. We love that movie. We didn't care. Until the next time on the rewatchables. Thank you.